On not keeping your talent...A study on how to continue to suck.

[venis2k1]

There has been alot of complaining amongst bills fans recently(ok, maybe more than recently) about not retaining their talent. We bring em in, coach em up and let them go. Thats what we do right? Its no secret that OBD has done a terribel job in most aspects over the last 10 years, and I realize every case is different(Peters was a malcontent, Lynch was a thug, Fletcher couldnt tackle within 5 yards of the line of scrimage(right? right?) So, with that in mind, I decided to take a look at the guys we moved on from that had success in another city. And of course, I decided to use Pro Bowls as the measuring stick(The most useful stat of all). Without further adu, A decade of escapees...

Pat Williams Pro Bowl (06, 07, 08) All Pro (07)

We let Pat walk without even offering him a contract. Not because we thought he would ask too much, but because he didnt have much left in the tank. A fan favorite, Williams loved his time here.

Jason Peters Pro Bowl (10, 11) All Pro (10, 11)

I dont have to say much about Peters, Wanted to get paid...we didnt want to pay him...this is shortly after signing Dockery and Walker to big money deals...at least we got decent compensation for him

Richie Incognito Pro Bowl (12)

Here is a name I bet you didnt expect to see, we cut Incognito when Gailey took over. Nobody really complained. "Cog" did make the probowl last year over Levitre...for what its worth(not very much i admit)

Marshawn Lynch Pro Bowl (11, 12) All Pro (12)

We were Robbed!!!

Donte Whitner Pro Bowl (12)

I still dont miss him.

Warewolves of London Fletcher Pro Bowl (09,10,11,12) All Pro (11, 12)

Might be the biggest blunder of the bunch. Alot like Fat Pat, most here assumed he was close to washed up after the 06 season. We were wrong...dead wrong.

Willis McGahee Pro Bowl (07, 11)

Another running back. The guy was a Richard...does anybody really miss him?

Antoine Winfield Pro Bowl (08, 09, 10) All Pro (08)

I honestly dont remember why we let Winfield walk, Money i guess. Worried about keeping Clements perhaps. Who, interestingly does not appear on this list (How many Corners have we drafted since 04 trying to replace Winfield?)

Jon Dorenbos Pro Bowl (09)

Its a long snapper....although he was Magic...and a nice guy

Reuben Brown Pro Bowl (06)

Yea i know. How Many Pro Bowls did Brown get voted into here in buffalo on name alone??? Rules are rules, so he makes the list.



I think thats it...although I could be wrong. And yes, Levitre inspired this post. Having said that, I understand letting him go. Like I said before, every case is different. Clements is a good example of what alot of people fear about Levitre(Good talent, not worth that kind of scratch though) Maybe they are right. Maybe they are wrong.

What did we learn from this post? Probably nothing we didnt already know. The Bills can be cheap(Peters), bad judges of character(Lynch, Mcgahee) and short sighted(Fletcher, Fat Pat, Winfield) But nobodys perfect right?

[ServoBillieves]

Couple Super Bowl winners and contributors out there as well.

[DynaPaul]

You forgot Jabari Greer.

[mjt328]

The Bills are quite simply... an inept organization from top to bottom.

Managing the salary cap takes skill. All teams (even the top ones) have to let players go at some point.
The key is:
1) Knowing what players are expendable and what players are vital...
2) Knowing what year their contract will become a salary cap problem and planning ahead...
3) Drafting solid players that can contribute during their early (cheap) years.

The Bills are absolutely terrible in all three areas.

For example, you mentioned Pat Williams. Prior to the 2005 season - at the time he signed with the Vikings, we were a defensive powerhouse (#2 overall in the NFL and Top 10 in every category). Williams was arguably the best player on our team on either side of the ball. His ability to occupy blockers was the key reason our defense was successful. He was absolutely vital to the organization and our defensive play. Irreplaceable.
Not only did we make NO effort to retain him, but we had nobody ready to take his place. Just Tim Anderson and Ron Edwards. We didn't even draft a defensive lineman that year. So all of a sudden, the middle of our defense becomes a MASSIVE problem. And our tackle play continues to be a problem for 6 years, until we finally draft Marcell Dareus to pair with Kyle Williams.


Sure, it would be nice to retain players like Andy Levitre. But that would require us to draft more than 1-2 players worth starting every season. It would require us to have solid depth across the board, so we aren't forced to hand $4-5 million contracts to average/below average players like Chris Kelsay or Leodis McKelvin. It would require us to plan ahead... (why is Rhinehart a free agent the same offseason as Levitre?)

[kishoph]

Pat Williams Pro Bowl (06, 07, 08) All Pro (07)

We let Pat walk without even offering him a contract. Not because we thought he would ask too much, but because he didnt have much left in the tank. A fan favorite, Williams loved his time here.

Jason Peters Pro Bowl (10, 11) All Pro (10, 11)

I dont have to say much about Peters, Wanted to get paid...we didnt want to pay him...this is shortly after signing Dockery and Walker to big money deals...at least we got decent compensation for him

Richie Incognito Pro Bowl (12)

Here is a name I bet you didnt expect to see, we cut Incognito when Gailey took over. Nobody really complained. "Cog" did make the probowl last year over Levitre...for what its worth(not very much i admit)

Marshawn Lynch Pro Bowl (11, 12) All Pro (12)

We were Robbed!!!

Donte Whitner Pro Bowl (12)

I still dont miss him.

Warewolves of London Fletcher Pro Bowl (09,10,11,12) All Pro (11, 12)

Might be the biggest blunder of the bunch. Alot like Fat Pat, most here assumed he was close to washed up after the 06 season. We were wrong...dead wrong.

Willis McGahee Pro Bowl (07, 11)

Another running back. The guy was a Richard...does anybody really miss him?

Antoine Winfield Pro Bowl (08, 09, 10) All Pro (08)

I honestly dont remember why we let Winfield walk, Money i guess. Worried about keeping Clements perhaps. Who, interestingly does not appear on this list (How many Corners have we drafted since 04 trying to replace Winfield?)

Jon Dorenbos Pro Bowl (09)

Its a long snapper....although he was Magic...and a nice guy

Reuben Brown Pro Bowl (06)

Yea i know. How Many Pro Bowls did Brown get voted into here in buffalo on name alone??? Rules are rules, so he makes the list.



In all fairness to Buddy Nix, not one of those player's were let go under his tenure as the Bills GM, Nix has done a good job resigning the top players since he's been the GM. Nix was in charge when Poz was let go, but if he would of resigned him at his asking price, the majority of the Bills fan base would of been up in arms about that.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

In all fairness to Buddy Nix, not one of those player's were let go under his tenure as the Bills GM, Nix has done a good job resigning the top players since he's been the GM. Nix was in charge when Poz was let go, but if he would of resigned him at his asking price, the majority of the Bills fan base would of been up in arms about that.

Nix did not resign Incognito or Whitner and traded Lynch away. That happened on his watch. You may agree or disagree with those moves, but they were his.

[Oaf]

Nix did not resign Incognito or Whitner and traded Lynch away. That happened on his watch. You may agree or disagree with those moves, but they were his.

I started a thread about Cog. Someone said he didn't want to be here? Don't care about Lynch/Whinner

[THRILLHO]

Nate Clements.

[venis2k1]

Neither Greer nor Clements made a probowl after leaving Buffalo...Greer got a ring, and Clements got a 80 million dollar contract.

[X-Era]

Neither Greer nor Clements made a probowl after leaving Buffalo...Greer got a ring, and Clements got a 80 million dollar contract.
Yeah. I'm not seeing it to be all Buddy's fault and I think Buddy has actually done much better on re-signing our own than any previous GM after Polian.

[mjt328]

In all fairness to Buddy Nix, not one of those player's were let go under his tenure as the Bills GM, Nix has done a good job resigning the top players since he's been the GM. Nix was in charge when Poz was let go, but if he would of resigned him at his asking price, the majority of the Bills fan base would of been up in arms about that.

Nix has done a decent job of re-signing our free agents so far (Poz was a bigger loss than most fans will admit).

But things are not looking bright for the future. Levitre is all but gone. Byrd still doesn't have a long-term contract. Wood is a free agent next year. And every passing season will make Mario's contract harder to handle.

[PromoTheRobot]

Geez, you forgot Darlye Lamonica.

PTR

[venis2k1]

Much respect for anybody that remembers Lamonica. You sir, have suffered for too long.


And to be fair to the OP, it only went back 10 years. Not even the full duration of "the drought"

[better days]

Nix has done a decent job of re-signing our free agents so far (Poz was a bigger loss than most fans will admit).

But things are not looking bright for the future. Levitre is all but gone. Byrd still doesn't have a long-term contract. Wood is a free agent next year. And every passing season will make Mario's contract harder to handle.

Poz was a loss, but a loss I would take at the price he was paid.

[JoeMama]

The Bills are basically a farm team.

On the rare occasions when we don't draft a complete bust in the draft, we misuse them for a few years, then watch them become great somewhere else via free agency.

13 years of uninterrupted failure.

Gotta believe it starts and ends with Ralph Wilson. How a man with zero ability to recognize talent got to be a billionaire, I will never know. Frankly it ruins my faith in the free market system. If I ran anything even a fraction as bad as Wilson has run the Bills, I'd be homeless.

I wouldn't let Ralph bag my groceries.

BTW here's a delightful article by Forbes that ranks Wilson has the third worst owner in the NFL (circa 2011).

At this point he's got to be the unanimous favorite for worst owner. And not just currently, possibly of all time.

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/eimh45gjh/the-worst-3-ralph-wilson-jr-buffalo-bills/

[kishoph]

Nix did not resign Incognito or Whitner and traded Lynch away. That happened on his watch. You may agree or disagree with those moves, but they were his.



You're right my bad.

[Night Train]

Nothing will change until Ralph Wilson is no longer listed as the owner. Brandon looks to be drunk with power at present.

Hope I'm wrong and Marrone gets a chance to build something, instead of Brandon applying temporary patches for marketing purposes.

[X-Era]

Nix has done a decent job of re-signing our free agents so far (Poz was a bigger loss than most fans will admit).

But things are not looking bright for the future. Levitre is all but gone. Byrd still doesn't have a long-term contract. Wood is a free agent next year. And every passing season will make Mario's contract harder to handle.So because we don't want to invest 7 to 8 mill a year in a G, haven't yet re-signed the guy we just franchised to keep, and haven't re-signed a guy that's still signed for another year the sky is falling?

[mjt328]

So because we don't want to invest 7 to 8 mill a year in a G, haven't yet re-signed the guy we just franchised to keep, and haven't re-signed a guy that's still signed for another year the sky is falling?

Look around. The sky came crashing down years ago. I'm just pointing out the reality of the situation.

Every time someone states how POORLY our GM has done at his job, we hear about how great he's done at "keeping our own." But Nix's poor drafting will catch up to us (and already is starting to). He's leaving Whaley with a very big mess to clean up.

Last year, we had enough room under the salary cap to be a major player in free agency for the first time in almost a decade. Only a year later, we are already being forced to cut veterans left and right (Barnett, Wilson, McGee, possibly Fitz), and make tough decisions about letting one of our most talented players walk. And since every contract in the NFL has escalators, things will only get tougher next year... and the year after... and the year after.


I don't blame Nix for letting Levitre walk.
I blame Nix for not having a replacement on the roster ready to fill-in at left guard.
I blame Nix for us still having 8 of 22 starting spots (at the bare minimum) that need massive upgrades - not to mention there being no depth on the roster.

[better days]

Look around. The sky came crashing down years ago. I'm just pointing out the reality of the situation.

Every time someone states how POORLY our GM has done at his job, we hear about how great he's done at "keeping our own." But Nix's poor drafting will catch up to us (and already is starting to). He's leaving Whaley with a very big mess to clean up.

Last year, we had enough room under the salary cap to be a major player in free agency for the first time in almost a decade. Only a year later, we are already being forced to cut veterans left and right (Barnett, Wilson, McGee, possibly Fitz), and make tough decisions about letting one of our most talented players walk. And since every contract in the NFL has escalators, things will only get tougher next year... and the year after... and the year after.


I don't blame Nix for letting Levitre walk.
I blame Nix for not having a replacement on the roster ready to fill-in at left guard.
I blame Nix for us still having 8 of 22 starting spots (at the bare minimum) that need massive upgrades - not to mention there being no depth on the roster.

The fact is no GM since Polian has drafted as well as Nix. Nix inherited a BIG mess when he was hired & is well on the way with the clean up.

[justasportsfan]

There has been alot of complaining amongst bills fans recently(ok, maybe more than recently) about not retaining their talent. We bring em in, coach em up and let them go. Thats what we do right? Its no secret that OBD has done a terribel job in most aspects over the last 10 years, and I realize every case is different(Peters was a malcontent, Lynch was a thug, Fletcher couldnt tackle within 5 yards of the line of scrimage(right? right?) So, with that in mind, I decided to take a look at the guys we moved on from that had success in another city. And of course, I decided to use Pro Bowls as the measuring stick(The most useful stat of all). Without further adu, A decade of escapees...

Pat Williams Pro Bowl (06, 07, 08) All Pro (07)

We let Pat walk without even offering him a contract. Not because we thought he would ask too much, but because he didnt have much left in the tank. A fan favorite, Williams loved his time here.

Jason Peters Pro Bowl (10, 11) All Pro (10, 11)

I dont have to say much about Peters, Wanted to get paid...we didnt want to pay him...this is shortly after signing Dockery and Walker to big money deals...at least we got decent compensation for him The bills did re-sign him to new contracts but he kept asking for a new one. So this is not entirely just the bills fault for letting him go. I myself wanted to see him paid

Richie Incognito Pro Bowl (12)

Here is a name I bet you didnt expect to see, we cut Incognito when Gailey took over. Nobody really complained. "Cog" did make the probowl last year over Levitre...for what its worth(not very much i admit)

Marshawn Lynch Pro Bowl (11, 12) All Pro (12)

We were Robbed!!!yup we were robbed in hindsight but Lynch made himself a bomb waiting to explode with his off field issues. I doubt he would have been as good if he stayed with us.

Donte Whitner Pro Bowl (12)

I still dont miss him.shouldn't even be part of this discussion. I would liken Whitner to Mckelvin. Both didn't live up to where they were drafted . At least we got something out of Leodis in the return game. We let one go and kept the other. Wash.

Warewolves of London Fletcher Pro Bowl (09,10,11,12) All Pro (11, 12) Fletcher wanted out of buffalo the minute we let Posey go.He was one of the vets who had a problem with Donahoe starting JP and I was on their side.

Might be the biggest blunder of the bunch. Alot like Fat Pat, most here assumed he was close to washed up after the 06 season. We were wrong...dead wrong.in hindsight we were wrong but fans were also screaming that he overpriced himself back then. But to the bills credit they DID re-sign him at some point since he played here for 7(?) years .

Willis McGahee Pro Bowl (07, 11)

Another running back. The guy was a Richard...does anybody really miss him? the guy just didn't embrace the city and played like it.

Antoine Winfield Pro Bowl (08, 09, 10) All Pro (08)

I honestly dont remember why we let Winfield walk, Money i guess. Worried about keeping Clements perhaps. Who, interestingly does not appear on this list (How many Corners have we drafted since 04 trying to replace Winfield?) I remember fans here on the boards saying he just asked too much and Clements was on the rise.

Jon Dorenbos Pro Bowl (09)

Its a long snapper....although he was Magic...and a nice guy

Reuben Brown Pro Bowl (06)

Yea i know. How Many Pro Bowls did Brown get voted into here in buffalo on name alone??? Rules are rules, so he makes the list.Just like PAtW. to the bills credit, he was re-signed at some point since he played here for 8 years.



I think thats it...although I could be wrong. And yes, Levitre inspired this post. Having said that, I understand letting him go. Like I said before, every case is different. Clements is a good example of what alot of people fear about Levitre(Good talent, not worth that kind of scratch though) Maybe they are right. Maybe they are wrong.

What did we learn from this post? Probably nothing we didnt already know. The Bills can be cheap(Peters), bad judges of character(Lynch, Mcgahee) and short sighted(Fletcher, Fat Pat, Winfield) But nobodys perfect right?
it's only fair to list the players we did re-sign as well through the years. Moulds, Aaron Schobel, Lee Evans , Peters/PatW./Brown,Terence MCgee (just bad luck with injuries) Kelsay( I'll take him over a Whitner), KYLE WILLIAMS

[mjt328]

The fact is no GM since Polian has drafted as well as Nix. Nix inherited a BIG mess when he was hired & is well on the way with the clean up.

I disagree completely. Nix has been as bad, if not worse, than any of his recent predecessors.

In 2009, we landed Eric Wood, Jairus Byrd and Andy Levitre in the draft. Our GM at the time... Russ Brandon.
In 2001, we landed Nate Clements, Aaron Schobel, Travis Henry and Jonas Jennings. Our GM was Tom Donahoe.

Each of those drafts has added more talent to our team than Nix has done with 3 years and 27 player selections.

[BillsFever21]

How can anybody say that Nix has done a "great" job drafting? If that was the case our team would be showing some upside and wouldn't have as many holes. We have less wins the three years since he took over then we did the prior 3 years before that.

What do we really have to show out of our first 3 drafts? We have a good player in Spiller but then we drafted a horrible Troup and Carrington and the others in that draft hasn't been worth much at all. In 2011 we drafted Dareus which still hasn't proven to be dominant yet and then Aaron Williams and Kelvin Sheppard. Williams has been a complete waste of space especially since we picked him over Dalton or Kapernick and Sheppard is average at best. The 2012 draft is still TBD since it's too early. So basically we have one great player in Spiller so far and the rest of them hasn't lived up to their draft position yet. Then is late round picks haven't been anything to jump for joy about either. Them have just been the top 3 rounds.

Then outside of the draft his FA signings have been horrible as well. We made Williams the highest paid defensive player in NFL history when he isn't even the best at his position. He gave Fitzpatrick a horrible contract and ended up released two years later. To compound that contract he passed on good QB's in two straight drafts after everybody realized he was a one month wonder. He gave McKelvin #2 starter money even though he has been horrible and his been our nickel back for the most part. Not to mention he also hired a terrible coaching staff that was already fired.

Face it that Nix has been terrible and I can't wait for him to step down. We can only hope that Whaley ends up being competent but that remains to be seen.