We should be looking for upgrades...

[X-Era]

I want a big splash or two as much as the next guy but really the team gets better if we get upgrades. We can argue about who the best investment is... youth vs. experience, contract size, etc... But the goal is to get better overall as a team.

Levitre is likely gone which means that's a significant loss from the overall talent perspective. But, we can make gains in other areas and the goal is to assemble a more talented team than last years squad.

I consider any of the following and upgrade:

James Harrison- Right now is better than any current OLB
Dannel Ellerbe- Better than any current ILB
Erin Henderson- More proven than any other OLB
Paul Kruger- See Harrison
LaRon Landry- Better than George Wilson
Brandon Gibson- More established than Donald Jones and has better upside IMO
Dustin Keller- Better than Caussin or Lee which he likely will be replacing

Downgrade?

Louis Vasquez?

[Night Train]

I don't want any older guys.

This team is not on the cusp of any big run and we're in Year 13 of the 3 year plan, applying patches for short term marketing.

Build towards something and give Marrone a chance, long term. Sign the younger guys with upside.

[better days]

I don't want any older guys.

This team is not on the cusp of any big run and we're in Year 13 of the 3 year plan, applying patches for short term marketing.

Build towards something and give Marrone a chance, long term. Sign the younger guys with upside.

I think it is a good thing to bring in a GOOD Vet player or two that can show the young guys how it is done. Derrick Brooks, soon to be HOF player for the Bucs has always credited Hardy Nickerson for showing him how to be a PRO.

The Bucs brought in Hardy from the Steelers when he was on his last legs, his play was not what it was when he was younger, but he was a GREAT leader & very much responsible in molding the Bucs Super Bowl team.

[Buddo]

I think it is a good thing to bring in a GOOD Vet player or two that can show the young guys how it is done. Derrick Brooks, soon to be HOF player for the Bucs has always credited Hardy Nickerson for showing him how to be a PRO.

The Bucs brought in Hardy from the Steelers when he was on his last legs, his play was not what it was when he was younger, but he was a GREAT leader & very much responsible in molding the Bucs Super Bowl team.

I think there's something to be said for this approach, but I feel you only need one guy to do that, on either side of the football. You also need to gauge very carefully, how much that guy has left in the tank.

[better days]

I think there's something to be said for this approach, but I feel you only need one guy to do that, on either side of the football. You also need to gauge very carefully, how much that guy has left in the tank.

Well, the Bucs were a terrible team when they signed Hardy. He gave them a couple decent years before retiring at the time the Bucs got GOOD.

[X-Era]

I don't want any older guys.

This team is not on the cusp of any big run and we're in Year 13 of the 3 year plan, applying patches for short term marketing.

Build towards something and give Marrone a chance, long term. Sign the younger guys with upside.Define older for me

[mikemac2001]

Tjax and Fitz have almost identical Car rating on espn...i think having both on the roster is dumb. save the cap and move on...atleast tjax would be a new face to suck

[The Jokeman]

Define older for me

In football, over thirty is generally considered old.

[X-Era]

In football, over thirty is generally considered old.Tell that to Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Andre Johnson, and a slew of others.

They have value... especially on a young team.

I don't want guys with nothing left but I'd like some guys that can help us right away.

[The Jokeman]

Tell that to Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Andre Johnson, and a slew of others.

They have value... especially on a young team.

I don't want guys with nothing left but I'd like some guys that can help us right away.

30 plus for QB isn't a big deal since they don't have to be great athletes as they aren't running as much as the other guys on the field. WR's speed is important but quickness more vital.

[X-Era]

30 plus for QB isn't a big deal since they don't have to be great athletes as they aren't running as much as the other guys on the field. WR's speed is important but quickness more vital.OL, some DL, LB, and even some S are just fine over 30. But not too far over 30... LOL

[BLeonard]

I consider any of the following and upgrade:

James Harrison- Right now is better than any current OLB
Dannel Ellerbe- Better than any current ILB
Erin Henderson- More proven than any other OLB
Paul Kruger- See Harrison
LaRon Landry- Better than George Wilson
Brandon Gibson- More established than Donald Jones and has better upside IMO
Dustin Keller- Better than Caussin or Lee which he likely will be replacing

That's all well and good... Now, let's see how many of these "upgrades" the Bills are actually able to sign...

That's been a big part of the issue. The Bills' idea of "upgrade" has been the following:

1: Let good player go in Free Agency, while continuosly preaching "draft, develop and retain."
2: Promote the former player's backup to a starting role, claiming that "there isn't much of a dropoff" and "he just needs playing time."
3: Draft a rookie to fill the backup role, again preaching "draft, develop and retain."

Perfect example is the Quarterback position.

Trent Edwards was JP Losman's backup. Losman's contract is up, Edwards is the starter and Fitz is brought in as the backup.
Edwards gets cut, Fitz is the starter and last season, Tavaris Jackson was brought in as a backup.
Fitz is cut and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see Tavaris Jackson as the Opening Day Starting QB, even though he apparently wasn't even good enough to dress, let alone unseat the great Tyler Thigpen, last season.

This method hasn't worked in 13 seasons and with the same people in charge, with the exception of the illusion of giving Russ Brandon yet another promotion, I really don't have much faith in it magically working in year 14.

-Bill

[X-Era]

That's all well and good... Now, let's see how many of these "upgrades" the Bills are actually able to sign...

That's been a big part of the issue. The Bills' idea of "upgrade" has been the following:

1: Let good player go in Free Agency, while continuosly preaching "draft, develop and retain."
2: Promote the former player's backup to a starting role, claiming that "there isn't much of a dropoff" and "he just needs playing time."
3: Draft a rookie to fill the backup role, again preaching "draft, develop and retain."

Perfect example is the Quarterback position.

Trent Edwards was JP Losman's backup. Losman's contract is up, Edwards is the starter and Fitz is brought in as the backup.
Edwards gets cut, Fitz is the starter and last season, Tavaris Jackson was brought in as a backup.
Fitz is cut and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see Tavaris Jackson as the Opening Day Starting QB, even though he apparently wasn't even good enough to dress, let alone unseat the great Tyler Thigpen, last season.

This method hasn't worked in 13 seasons and with the same people in charge, with the exception of the illusion of giving Russ Brandon yet another promotion, I really don't have much faith in it magically working in year 14.

-Bill

Who are the players we let walk in the past 3 years and why? If anything weve been keeping more of our own than ever before (since the SB years).

And are you using 3 sub-par QB's to make a point about keeping our own? None of them should have been kept. We have failed to find a franchise QB since Kelly. I do not disagree.

And that has to change. But we won't be signing one anytime soon and to worry about re-signing one we have to actually draft one to start with.

[YardRat]

Edwards, Losman and Fitz all eventually ended up sucking over most of the time they spent in Buffalo, after a brief match-stick size flicker of hope was exhibited by all three. Two of them were draft picks of the Bills, one a first rounder, much to the dismay of those who like to claim the team hasn't tried to address the QB position through the draft.

There is still a ****-ton of talent out there, it's only been a single day and a couple of hours...

http://espn.go.com/nfl/freeagency/

[X-Era]

Edwards, Losman and Fitz all eventually ended up sucking over most of the time they spent in Buffalo, after a brief match-stick size flicker of hope was exhibited by all three. Two of them were draft picks of the Bills, one a first rounder, much to the dismay of those who like to claim the team hasn't tried to address the QB position through the draft.

There is still a ****-ton of talent out there, it's only been a single day and a couple of hours...

http://espn.go.com/nfl/freeagency/
:clap:

[BLeonard]

Who are the players we let walk in the past 3 years and why? If anything weve been keeping more of our own than ever before (since the SB years).

Levitre is obviously one. Donte Whitner played on a Super Bowl defense last season and Paul Pozluszny would still be a starting linebacker on the Bills. You can claim that each "got too much money," "didn't fit the scheme" or whatever you want, but the facts are, all of the teams have the same salary cap to work with and all three of these players would be starters on the Bills currently. It's not about letting players walk as much as it is about upgrading those spots, as you say in your first post. I agree with you in theory. The problem is, the Bills never seem to upgrade when they let those guys walk. Yes, we've been keeping more lately, but we're still not upgrading the ones we lose. I'm not even saying "We should have kept Levitre, Whitner and Pozluszny." You aksed for three, I gave you three players that the Bills have let walk, without upgrading the position.



And are you using 3 sub-par QB's to make a point about keeping our own? None of them should have been kept. We have failed to find a franchise QB since Kelly. I do not disagree.

The point was more to the fact that the Bills think "upgrading" is simply starting the player that was next on the depth chart, as opposed to actually going out and getting upgrades. Again, let's see how many of those guys on your list the Bills actually get. Also, which one of those guys is gonna play the OG spot we just let not one, but two (Levitre and Rinehart) players just walk for nothing?



And that has to change. But we won't be signing one anytime soon and to worry about re-signing one we have to actually draft one to start with.

I said it last year: It would not surprise me one bit if they trot Tavaris Jackson out there as the Opening Day starter. That could very well be why he didn't even dress... So that the Bills FO could try and pass him off as "The Man," as opposed to actually having to go out and get a real QB, be it through Free Agency or the Draft.

The Bills Front Office has gotten more than their fair share of the "benefit of the doubt" from me in the past 13 years and I'm sure others can say the same. Again, I don't think the light will magically turn on in year 14 for these guys. If it does, I'll happily come back here and admit that I was wrong. I've said that for quite a while, too and so far, I haven't had to, unfortunately.

-Bill

[X-Era]

Levitre is obviously one. Donte Whitner played on a Super Bowl defense last season and Paul Pozluszny would still be a starting linebacker on the Bills. You can claim that each "got too much money," "didn't fit the scheme" or whatever you want, but the facts are, all of the teams have the same salary cap to work with and all three of these players would be starters on the Bills currently. It's not about letting players walk as much as it is about upgrading those spots, as you say in your first post. I agree with you in theory. The problem is, the Bills never seem to upgrade when they let those guys walk. Yes, we've been keeping more lately, but we're still not upgrading the ones we lose. I'm not even saying "We should have kept Levitre, Whitner and Pozluszny." You aksed for three, I gave you three players that the Bills have let walk, without upgrading the position.



The point was more to the fact that the Bills think "upgrading" is simply starting the player that was next on the depth chart, as opposed to actually going out and getting upgrades. Again, let's see how many of those guys on your list the Bills actually get. Also, which one of those guys is gonna play the OG spot we just let not one, but two (Levitre and Rinehart) players just walk for nothing?



I said it last year: It would not surprise me one bit if they trot Tavaris Jackson out there as the Opening Day starter. That could very well be why he didn't even dress... So that the Bills FO could try and pass him off as "The Man," as opposed to actually having to go out and get a real QB, be it through Free Agency or the Draft.

The Bills Front Office has gotten more than their fair share of the "benefit of the doubt" from me in the past 13 years and I'm sure others can say the same. Again, I don't think the light will magically turn on in year 14 for these guys. If it does, I'll happily come back here and admit that I was wrong. I've said that for quite a while, too and so far, I haven't had to, unfortunately.

-BillI didn't specifically ask for 3. But, you named the three. On the other hand, we re-signed Stevie, Urbik, Pears, Chandler, Freddy, Fitz (not necessarily good), Wilson, Kyle Williams... and thats off the top of my head. Both Poz and Levitre are players where many felt we may have spent too much.

[BLeonard]

Edwards, Losman and Fitz all eventually ended up sucking over most of the time they spent in Buffalo, after a brief match-stick size flicker of hope was exhibited by all three. Two of them were draft picks of the Bills, one a first rounder, much to the dismay of those who like to claim the team hasn't tried to address the QB position through the draft.

There is still a ****-ton of talent out there, it's only been a single day and a couple of hours...

http://espn.go.com/nfl/freeagency/

Again, we'll see how much of this "****-ton of talent out there" that the Bills actually get. We've had basically the same holes (QB, OLine, LB's) for half of forever. Yet, every year, those holes go unaddressed, or underaddressed. Last year, finally, they get a fairly decent Offensive Line in place and in less than a day, let the most versatile starter and one of the backups walk, with no plan to replace them, thus far.

Compare that to the Patriots, who lose Wes Welker and less than an hour later, sign Danny Amendola. If the Bills had a plan like this, I wouldn't have as much of an issue with letting players (and especially starters) walk. But, as past years have shown, they rarely have any plan at all, except for promoting the backup to a starting role and drafting rookies to be the "depth."

-Bill

[BLeonard]

I didn't specifically ask for 3. But, you named the three. On the other hand, we re-signed Stevie, Urbik, Pears, Chandler, Freddy, Fitz (not necessarily good), Wilson, Kyle Williams... and thats off the top of my head. Both Poz and Levitre are players where many felt we may have spent too much.

Read "last 3 years" wrong. Thought for some reason it said "3 players over the last 3 years."

The point is, who has replaced the players that the Bills have let go? If youre not getting BETTER players to fill those roles, you're not gonna go anywhere. Pretty much what you said in the initial post.

I agree, there are upgrades to be had. The problem is, the Bills never seem to get those upgrades and end up simply promoting the backups that were already on the team to starter roles.

Which do you think is more likely: The Bills getting an OL that's better than Andy Levitre for less money than Levitre got, or either playing a current backup or using a draft pick to fill his spot?

Again, I'm not even saying "We should have given Levitre $8 million a year." I'm saying "We'd better get just as good, if not better production for that $8 million, as we got out of Levitre. If we don't, we should have just kept him."

After 13 years of not maikng the playoffs, how confident are you that the Bills Front Office is capable of getting just as good, or better production, for that $8 million...? Personally, I have serious doubts.

-Bill

[X-Era]

The point is, who has replaced the players that the Bills have let go? If youre not getting BETTER players to fill those roles, you're not gonna go anywhere. Pretty much what you said in the initial post.
That's true and overall talent level has been an issue IMO. I'm only saying it's a different argument than whether we keep our own or not.


I agree, there are upgrades to be had. The problem is, the Bills never seem to get those upgrades and end up simply promoting the backups that were already on the team to starter roles.
They have chosen a draft first approach which is the preferred approach in the NFL. They have however made a big splash with Mario and made several other decent signings. Out of the losses of Whitner, Poz, and Levitre... Poz was the only downgrade because Shepp is not starting quality. Personally, I think Wilson was just as good as Whitner and we haven't filled Levitre's spot yet so we don't know there. But other spots have been upgraded. RB, TE, LT, C, DE, DT, FS, #1 CB, RG. I like what we have now more than what weve had in previous regimes at these positions.


Which do you think is more likely: The Bills getting an OL that's better than Andy Levitre for less money than Levitre got, or either playing a current backup or using a draft pick to fill his spot?They won't get better for less money from FA. And they probably won't get better right away from the draft. But, they can get a solid starter at G from either source. This was a money driven downgrade at the position That's the situation. But, choices have to be made sometimes and paying 8 mill per for a LG when you have no starting LB'ers and no starting QB seems like bad money management.


Again, I'm not even saying "We should have given Levitre $8 million a year." I'm saying "We'd better get just as good, if not better production for that $8 million, as we got out of Levitre. If we don't, we should have just kept him."But it seems like that is what you're saying then. Look, if we draft a guy like Brian Winters from Kent State and he becomes what I think he will, as soon as next year maybe late this year we may have solid LG play at maybe an 1/8th or less of the price of Levitre.


After 13 years of not maikng the playoffs, how confident are you that the Bills Front Office is capable of getting just as good, or better production, for that $8 million...? Personally, I have serious doubts.

And I think you should. I have doubts too. But, I feel that the Bills will get a whole lot more wins with better defensive schemes and a real QB. The franchise QB piece alone will make a huge impact on our fortunes.

Personally I think if we can solidify the starting LB'ers, get an at least solid LG, and get the franchise QB we will be in very good shape.

[BLeonard]

That's true and overall talent level has been an issue IMO. I'm only saying it's a different argument than whether we keep our own or not.

Personally, I feel they go hand in hand. If you're not keeping your own, chances are, the talent level you get in return will be less.



They have chosen a draft first approach which is the preferred approach in the NFL. They have however made a big splash with Mario and made several other decent signings. Out of the losses of Whitner, Poz, and Levitre... Poz was the only downgrade because Shepp is not starting quality. Personally, I think Wilson was just as good as Whitner and we haven't filled Levitre's spot yet so we don't know there. But other spots have been upgraded. RB, TE, LT, C, DE, DT, FS, #1 CB, RG. I like what we have now more than what weve had in previous regimes at these positions.

"Draft-first" only works when you draft fairly well and then keep the players that you draft. Wilson being "just as good is Whitner" is moot because we don't have either of them now. Like I said, it'll be interesting to see how many of those "upgrades" you mentioned in your first post end up being Buffalo Bills and how many holes are filled by either promoting a guy that was a backup last year and through the draft.



They won't get better for less money from FA. And they probably won't get better right away from the draft. But, they can get a solid starter at G from either source. This was a money driven downgrade at the position That's the situation. But, choices have to be made sometimes and paying 8 mill per for a LG when you have no starting LB'ers and no starting QB seems like bad money management.

Again, every team follows the same salary cap that the Bills do. However, it seems as if the Bills have a lot more "money driven downgrades" than every other team damn near every year. You hardly ever hear of teams like New England, Denver, etc, having to let good starting players go due to "money issues."



But it seems like that is what you're saying then. Look, if we draft a guy like Brian Winters from Kent State and he becomes what I think he will, as soon as next year maybe late this year we may have solid LG play at maybe an 1/8th or less of the price of Levitre.

We've been saying things like this for 13 years now... Never seems to work out that way. Then, even if your scenario DOES play out, once his rookie contract is up, he'll be out the door, just like Levitre.



And I think you should. I have doubts too. But, I feel that the Bills will get a whole lot more wins with better defensive schemes and a real QB. The franchise QB piece alone will make a huge impact on our fortunes.

Personally I think if we can solidify the starting LB'ers, get an at least solid LG, and get the franchise QB we will be in very good shape.

Again, a lot of this is the same recycled story for the past 13 years. We've known the holes at LB and QB for quite a while now, well before Nix became GM and, well, here we are... 4 drafts later and still, the same holes, with an added hole on the offensive line, which was just fixed in the past few years.

At some point in time, they need to pay some of the talent that they have, as opposed to having a revolving door at positions like OLine and failing to address holes like LB and QB that Stevie Wonder could see.

They managed to sign Chris Kelsay to extentions and give him pay raises multiple times, well before his contract was up... Why can't they do that with players that have actual talent?

-Bill