Putting it in perspective

[Mr. Miyagi]

I remember the Music City Debacle vividly.

My wife was holding our sleeping new born baby daughter, watching the game with me in the living room. The forward pass happened, and I yelped out loud in devastation, woke the baby and she started crying, and my wife yelled at me about that as I was already completely heartbroken about the game.

That was the last time the Bills made the playoffs.

And my daughter will be going to high school next year.

THAT is how long we Bills fans have been suffering.

DO F___KING SOMETHING MR. NIX AND MR. BRANDON. WE FANS DESERVE YOUR FULL EFFORT.

[OpIv37]

This looks like a full on "break it down and rebuild," so don't expect playoffs until she's graduating HS.

And that's assuming they get it right.

Tell her to go to med school so she'll be in college for 7 or 8 years- then MAYBE we'll make the playoffs by the time she graduates from that.

[Mr. Miyagi]

F this team.

[EDS]

What, you thought Buddy and/or Brandon were the right guys to turn around the franchise?

Please. The writing was on the wall the minute Ralph hired Buddy on the cheap: Maintain profitability. Nothing else matters.

[Jeff1220]

Same here Miyagi. My daughter was less than a year old. I was at a business conference with my family, and had the time during the game off, so we watched at the hotel restaurant. My daughter is finishing her freshman year. My oldest son who will be a young freshman next year (he turns 13 in June) has not been alive for a Bills playoff game.

[OpIv37]

On a similar note, my wife and I got married January 19, 2001. I knew the Bills weren't going to make the playoffs that year so I didn't think about postponing it a few weeks until after playoff season.... but afterward it occurred to me that I wasn't thinking about FUTURE years and our anniversary potentially interfering with Bills playoff games.

11 years in and it hasn't been a problem yet....

[jpdex12]

On a similar note, my wife and I got married January 19, 2001. I knew the Bills weren't going to make the playoffs that year so I didn't think about postponing it a few weeks until after playoff season.... but afterward it occurred to me that I wasn't thinking about FUTURE years and our anniversary potentially interfering with Bills playoff games.

11 years in and it hasn't been a problem yet....

Well, you should be able to crest the 50 years of marriage mark and still not have to worry about letting your partner down missing your anniversary for a Bill's playoff game. Wilson will still probably be alive then. It'll be like Weekend at Bernies with Ralphy and we will still be in playoff pergatory!

[cookie G]

Yep, my youngest was about 3 months old during the Music City Miracle game. I think I was holding him during the homerun throwback play. I might have dropped him. Tough to say, it was a while ago. He's in the 7th grade now.

Damn, the phases that kid's gone through.

Buzz Lightyear phase;
Batman phase;
Star Wars phase;
Spider man phase;
Batman Beyond phase;
Batman-Superman hybrid phase;
Mutant Turtles phase;
Godzilla phase;
Even a short UFO conspiracy theorist phase.

He's gone through phases like the Bills have gone through defensive schemes.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

This looks like a full on "break it down and rebuild," so don't expect playoffs until she's graduating HS.

And that's assuming they get it right.

Tell her to go to med school so she'll be in college for 7 or 8 years- then MAYBE we'll make the playoffs by the time she graduates from that.

I dunno, last time the Bills were in the post season I was a junior in high school. Now I have a master's degree under my belt and that's with three years of work experience between my bachelor's and master's degree. I fully suspect that I will have a PhD by the time this team sniffs the post season again.

[Ingtar33]

i was still together with my ex.

crazy... when i think about it.

[X-Era]

Why does it feel like 7 days into FA and were a bunch of crack addicts waiting for our "hit" in the form of a veteran backup or never-has-been?

I was talking to my friend about it.

This is a weak class:

The top WR's were borderline top 10 and certainly not top 5 yet the top guy got 12.5 mill a year
The top ILB was Ellerbe but was a one year wonder
The 2nd best ILB is Karlos Dansby who is still out there
The 3rd best guy isn't much better than the 12th best guy
There was one top OLB (Kruger) and then everyone else
The top G got 8 mill a year and we have no business spending that on a G
The next best G was signed and now the 3rd best isn't much better than the 12th best
There were no legit starting QB
There were about 6 to 8 TE's out there and that's a spot where we would have gotten good value but then again the top guy got almost 8 mill per year
There were about 3 S's and all got decent money when most where just solid starters


It was a situation where in most cases big money went to guys that are what they are and they aren't top 5 at their position. The gold rush is now over and the guys that are left are way better bargains and not that much worse that the top free agents. No, none are guys you can plug in for the next 6 years as top performing starters but the market only had a few of those guys and they went for big money.

Can some of these guys still upgrade some of our positions? Yes. And they are still out there.

If there is no rush by other teams at this point, why rush?... Just to get a fix?

FA isn't over, and I'm just as impatient as everyone else. But, we can take out time now and won't really lose out on much.

[OpIv37]

We don't need bargains. We need talent.

[Mr. Miyagi]

We don't need bargains. We need talent.
Precisely. It shows where this team's priority lies. It sure isn't winning.

[trapezeus]

this team does not care about being good. russ is ralph. ralph is russ. they want to peel every penny out of buffalo and then say in year 7, sorry, someone else bought hte team.

it's not simply about money on players. its about how you build a team.

i am fine if they want to try this all over again, but please don't do it with the exact same people and expect different results. the bills were closer with chan as a coach with a pettine hire and keeping his weapons and taking a flyer on a QB in round 1 than what they've done now.

they let 2 linemen go in a position that actually was pretty good (i.e. the OL). Now, even if thye get day 1 starters out of the draft, they haven't gelled. So if they really want to go with a new young qb, you run the risk of ruining him.

with all they have done so far, they should draft OL in round 1, LB in 2 and 3. and then find WR and TE as well as a possible RB.

Then let the new schemes set in, let TJax take the punishment, end up in the bottom 3rd yet again, AND then go for a QB the following year. This way even if the draft class is as weak as this one, the new guy is stepping into a stable area focused on learning vs having all 11 guys learning the system.

but russ in all his wisdom will draft the sexy positoin bcause that's what sells tickets.

and the bills should have been active by now getting more LB's and OL. They have no depth here. even middling players on 1-3 year deals with little guaranteed money should have been offered if they were serious about being a team.

but they will elect to put people on IR by week 4-6 and hire street guys like LEON JOE to fill in for a few weeks and tell us that it was just an injury bug. it's a "Not thinking" bug. and its been with us for 13 years.

I think we should keep peppering the bills with emails and tweets and phone calls. Hey buddy might answer and say whatever comes into his mind.

[Ingtar33]

We don't need bargains. We need talent.

we need vet leadership in that locker room badly. I saw a defense last year with almost no accountability or leadership on that field. We don't need allstars, just winners with some leadership skills. Good locker room stuff, else any attempt to fix that defense will result in more of the same.

Of course the bills front office obviously doesn't feel that way.

[OpIv37]

we need vet leadership in that locker room badly. I saw a defense last year with almost no accountability or leadership on that field. We don't need allstars, just winners with some leadership skills. Good locker room stuff, else any attempt to fix that defense will result in more of the same.

Of course the bills front office obviously doesn't feel that way.

You don't think 3rd tier FA's and UDFA's can provide vet leadership? Stop being such a "negative nancy."

[Mr. Miyagi]

we need vet leadership in that locker room badly. I saw a defense last year with almost no accountability or leadership on that field. We don't need allstars, just winners with some leadership skills. Good locker room stuff, else any attempt to fix that defense will result in more of the same.
Dansby and Spikes won't be expensive and can fill that role. We need LB depth anyway. Why the wait?

[OpIv37]

Dansby and Spikes won't be expensive and can fill that role. We need LB depth anyway. Why the wait?

Because if we wait another couple of weeks, Russ might be able to save $500,000 over the next 2 seasons. It's worth the risk of someone else signing them, right?

[justasportsfan]

we need vet leadership in that locker room badly. I saw a defense last year with almost no accountability or leadership on that field. We don't need allstars, just winners with some leadership skills. Good locker room stuff, else any attempt to fix that defense will result in more of the same.

Of course the bills front office obviously doesn't feel that way.


Chan was laid back and IF IT IS TRUE, Marrone should hold players accountable.

[Typ0]

We don't need bargains. We need talent.

gotta disagree with that. What we don't need is to overpay any more. Good fiscal management means the ability to spread the $$$ around and get the production returned for the $$$ you are spending. Big frigging deal if you blow your load at the beginning of free agency and get some "star" names. That is a load of bs. When it comes down to it we do that and then when we want to sign our own superstars we aren't able to. I'm on board with the approach this team is taking. I think it indicates we finally will have a long term approach to build up instead of blowing smoke up all our asses. Wilson's ancient mentality has been the consummate smoke screen it wouldn't at all surprise me to find out when all is said and done. And he's just plain succumbed to his failure over and over and he wants to win enough to give another approach a chance. I know our patience has run out but I'm more positive about this off season already than since the season following MCM the team fell apart.

[OpIv37]

gotta disagree with that. What we don't need is to overpay any more. Good fiscal management means the ability to spread the $$$ around and get the production returned for the $$$ you are spending. Big frigging deal if you blow your load at the beginning of free agency and get some "star" names. That is a load of bs. When it comes down to it we do that and then when we want to sign our own superstars we aren't able to. I'm on board with the approach this team is taking. I think it indicates we finally will have a long term approach to build up instead of blowing smoke up all our asses. Wilson's ancient mentality has been the consummate smoke screen it wouldn't at all surprise me to find out when all is said and done. And he's just plain succumbed to his failure over and over and he wants to win enough to give another approach a chance. I know our patience has run out but I'm more positive about this off season already than since the season following MCM the team fell apart.

It's not an either/or situation. There are plenty of teams that manage to retain their talent and still sign FA's.

[justasportsfan]

gotta disagree with that. What we don't need is to overpay any more. Good fiscal management means the ability to spread the $$$ around and get the production returned for the $$$ you are spending. Big frigging deal if you blow your load at the beginning of free agency and get some "star" names. That is a load of bs. When it comes down to it we do that and then when we want to sign our own superstars we aren't able to. I'm on board with the approach this team is taking. I think it indicates we finally will have a long term approach to build up instead of blowing smoke up all our asses. Wilson's ancient mentality has been the consummate smoke screen it wouldn't at all surprise me to find out when all is said and done. And he's just plain succumbed to his failure over and over and he wants to win enough to give another approach a chance. I know our patience has run out but I'm more positive about this off season already than since the season following MCM the team fell apart.

We just blew a boatload of money on Mario and Anderson. IMO, bills aren't going to that again this year until Marrone and Pettine have had a chance to assess what they inherited. I think bills will be big players next year and/or the year after.

[Don't Panic]

Yep, my youngest was about 3 months old during the Music City Miracle game. I think I was holding him during the homerun throwback play. I might have dropped him. Tough to say, it was a while ago.

If you dropped him, did you drop him past the line of scrimmage? Because that would be a forward lateral.

[Typ0]

It's not an either/or situation. There are plenty of teams that manage to retain their talent and still sign FA's.
..
Not bad teams in Buffalo though OP. Players also want to win. They will negotiate a lot more with a solid team of players who also have the team in mind. What we offer here is not what's offered in bigger markets in terms of perks. We need to pay more and still have trouble getting players on the rise. You are comparing apples to oranges. I'm talking about the Bills not every other team in the league.

[OpIv37]

..
Not bad teams in Buffalo though OP. Players also want to win. They will negotiate a lot more with a solid team of players who also have the team in mind. What we offer here is not what's offered in bigger markets in terms of perks. We need to pay more and still have trouble getting players on the rise. You are comparing apples to oranges. I'm talking about the Bills not every other team in the league.

So you're basically saying we can't compete.

If that's the case, why have a team? If we are doomed to this crap year in and year out, who benefits from this other than Ralph and Russ?

[Typ0]

So you're basically saying we can't compete.

If that's the case, why have a team? If we are doomed to this crap year in and year out, who benefits from this other than Ralph and Russ?


I am saying it's not going to be easy. Everyone is in such and uproar about not signing guys...but the pieces need to fall into place from both sides. And we have a big task ahead of us if we are going to compete. It's already been proven making a splash isn't going to get the job done. It's about the mixture of guys we have and the mentality of the organization. That's what really needs to change...

[feldspar]

First of all, free agency goes on for about another five-and-a-half months. It is not a week-long event. Plenty of other players will become available during that time...good players that are not available right now. Teams will wait on certain moves until after the draft and they see who they got. Good players are yet to be released because of salary, cap concerns, simple upgrades, disgruntled players, or whatever else.

Did you guys forget about Mario last year? Where did that get us so far? Also, I don't think that the Bills don't care about winning...I think it's been more of an issue of incompetence. We'll see a different team next year for sure.

I think it's all window-dressing until we get a decent starting quarterback anyway, and we picked one hell of a year to go after one. Even the best team has holes in their roster...go out and try to fill those holes in free agency too much and you wind up like the Jets...or the Redskins before they got a QB. You do realize the reason why good players are available at the start of free agency is because they are to be over-payed on the market; that's a big reason why their current teams don't re-sign them in the first place. The Bills will pick up a few projected starters in free agency before it is over...some role-players too. We'll cut people too (please let it be Brad Smith!). The roster is far from set.

On top of all that, Buffalo isn't exactly a tantalizing destination point for most free agents.

If Doug Marrone turns out to be anything and we can get a QB, this will be a highly productive offseason. Everything else doesn't even come close to those two things.

[OpIv37]

First of all, free agency goes on for about another five-and-a-half months. It is not a week-long event. Plenty of other players will become available during that time...good players that are not available right now. Teams will wait on certain moves until after the draft and they see who they got. Good players are yet to be released because of salary, cap concerns, simple upgrades, disgruntled players, or whatever else.

Did you guys forget about Mario last year? Where did that get us so far? Also, I don't think that the Bills don't care about winning...I think it's been more of an issue of incompetence. We'll see a different team next year for sure.

I think it's all window-dressing until we get a decent starting quarterback anyway, and we picked one hell of a year to go after one. Even the best team has holes in their roster...go out and try to fill those holes in free agency too much and you wind up like the Jets...or the Redskins before they got a QB. You do realize the reason why good players are available at the start of free agency is because they are to be over-payed on the market; that's a big reason why their current teams don't re-sign them in the first place. The Bills will pick up a few projected starters in free agency before it is over...some role-players too. We'll cut people too (please let it be Brad Smith!). The roster is far from set.

On top of all that, Buffalo isn't exactly a tantalizing destination point for most free agents.

If Doug Marrone turns out to be anything and we can get a QB, this will be a highly productive offseason. Everything else doesn't even come close to those two things.

First, that part's not true. We've tried for years to survive off of other teams' rejects. It doesn't work. Yeah, free agency lasts 5 1/2 months but there is no restocking. Once the good players are gone, they're gone. We are well past the part where guys are getting overpaid, and still NOTHING from the Bills as the available players start dropping like flies.

Hell, you talk about players coming available even as you talk about the Bills releasing Brad Smith. Teams aren't going to release their good players. They are going to release their Brad Smiths.

Second, even the best teams have holes, but a) no team in the NFL currently has even close to the number of holes we have and b) every team except us is doing something to try to fill their holes.

[BillsFever21]

When ESPN and The NFL Network does their mock drafts and lists our team needs they should list the ones we don't need since it would be a lot shorter. If not then they should just put down everything but RB and DL and even though DL isn't an immediate need they didn't play very good even though it's one of the most expensive DL's in football.

They're not even holes either that they can list. A listed hole is usually an immediate single starter at a weak position. Our holes are so glaring we have multiple needs at the same position like WR and especially LB. Hell we don't have one worthy starter that would start on the majority of teams on our roster at LB

[feldspar]

First, that part's not true. We've tried for years to survive off of other teams' rejects. It doesn't work. Yeah, free agency lasts 5 1/2 months but there is no restocking. Once the good players are gone, they're gone. We are well past the part where guys are getting overpaid, and still NOTHING from the Bills as the available players start dropping like flies.

Hell, you talk about players coming available even as you talk about the Bills releasing Brad Smith. Teams aren't going to release their good players. They are going to release their Brad Smiths.

Second, even the best teams have holes, but a) no team in the NFL currently has even close to the number of holes we have and b) every team except us is doing something to try to fill their holes.

I get it...you're the kind of guy that just waits around to correct people.

Great job.

Can't believe just how wrong I am...

[OpIv37]

I get it...you're the kind of guy that just waits around to correct people.

Great job.

Can't believe just how wrong I am...
Lmao. You can't refute my point so you try to make it about me. Stay on topic.

[fluteflakes]

I'm of the opinion now that Buddy and Marrone are going to wait till after the draft to fill up the rest of the roster on UDFA's and the remaining "top" FA's. So just like Chan's first year except hopefully Marrone is actually qualified to be an NFL level head coach.

Here's hoping he is. But I REALLY do not like this strategy, it's basically broadcasting what our needs are and what our draft strategy will play out as. Not to mention it runs the risk, and most likely will be the result, of filling the roster with massively sub-par talent, again. Instead of even solid role players, we just get the trash.

Not happy at all. Buddy needs to go. The youth movement needs to be universal.

[feldspar]

Lmao. You can't refute my point so you try to make it about me. Stay on topic.

How did the Bills get Lawyer Milloy?

[OpIv37]

How did the Bills get Lawyer Milloy?

Ah yes.

The old BZ mantra of using the exception to prove the rule. 1 time, 10 years ago, we found another team's reject who worked out well for us. Wow, what a reliable strategy.

[feldspar]

Ah yes.

The old BZ mantra of using the exception to prove the rule. 1 time, 10 years ago, we found another team's reject who worked out well for us. Wow, what a reliable strategy.

Who is talking about strategy? That one came to mind, but the point is that it happens.

[OpIv37]

Who is talking about strategy? That one came to mind, but the point is that it happens.

Yes, it happens.

But it doesn't happen enough for us to rely on it. Good players may or may not become available later, but usually they don't. A lot of the guys out there now are cap casualties and their availability has more to do with a team's financial situation than their actual ability. As the season gets closer, guys get cut because of talent. They couldn't cut it and/or their team found someone better. It becomes less and less likely that good players become available- it's mostly just rejects, like what you are hoping happens to Brad Smith.

And, even if a good player does become available, there is no guarantee that the Bills can sign him.

There are players out there now who could improve this team without killing our cap. And I'm not talking about making a big splash or trying to fill every hole. I'm simply talking about doing anything other than ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. There is simply no justification for it.

[feldspar]

Yes, it happens.

But it doesn't happen enough for us to rely on it. Good players may or may not become available later, but usually they don't. A lot of the guys out there now are cap casualties and their availability has more to do with a team's financial situation than their actual ability. As the season gets closer, guys get cut because of talent. They couldn't cut it and/or their team found someone better. It becomes less and less likely that good players become available- it's mostly just rejects, like what you are hoping happens to Brad Smith.

And, even if a good player does become available, there is no guarantee that the Bills can sign him.

There are players out there now who could improve this team without killing our cap. And I'm not talking about making a big splash or trying to fill every hole. I'm simply talking about doing anything other than ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. There is simply no justification for it.

So why fixate on the one point I made? I don't need a lesson. Bored, huh? Or do you just feel like arguing? I also said that the free agency period isn't going to matter all that much if we don't pick up a decent quarterback...that's my opinion. We can't rely too much on free agency PERIOD with the current state of the franchise anyway. Talk about what the Bills did in free agency when it's over is what I have to say about that. Doug Marrone is a huge wildcard, too.

What do the Bills have left to realistically spend anyway? About $10.5 million after factoring in the signing of our draft picks? How far do you figure that would take us? That certainly does not put us in a position to overpay for one or two players and think that's going to make a difference with this team. If we'd already spent ALL of that money, then where would that leave us today? There are limited resources, and that's the justification for it. That bull**** contract with Fitzpatrick did not help matters. Are we ready to make a big push into the playoffs? I think no.

You have to consider that the Bills probably want to sign Byrd and Wood next year, and that requires cap space...Fitz's dead-cap money is $7 million next year, from what I understand.

Also, just because a player may be good, that doesn't mean that he will fit the system. Who knows WHAT Marrone's plans are? He hasn't really been forthcoming with his plans or how he wants to mold this team. His talk has been rather generic. I expect we are still trying to build through the draft and pick up role players in free agency. We aren't really in a position to do a hell of a lot more than that.

I don't like sucking for 13 years straight either.

[OpIv37]

So why fixate on the one point I made? I don't need a lesson. Bored, huh? Or do you just feel like arguing? I also said that the free agency period isn't going to matter all that much if we don't pick up a decent quarterback...that's my opinion. We can't rely too much on free agency PERIOD with the current state of the franchise anyway. Talk about what the Bills did in free agency when it's over is what I have to say about that. Doug Marrone is a huge wildcard, too.

What do the Bills have left to realistically spend anyway? About $10.5 million after factoring in the signing of our draft picks? How far do you figure that would take us? That certainly does not put us in a position to overpay for one or two players and think that's going to make a difference with this team. If we'd already spent ALL of that money, then where would that leave us today? There are limited resources, and that's the justification for it. That bull**** contract with Fitzpatrick did not help matters. Are we ready to make a big push into the playoffs? I think no.

You have to consider that the Bills probably want to sign Byrd and Wood next year, and that requires cap space...Fitz's dead-cap money is $7 million next year, from what I understand.

Also, just because a player may be good, that doesn't mean that he will fit the system. Who knows WHAT Marrone's plans are? He hasn't really been forthcoming with his plans or how he wants to mold this team. His talk has been rather generic. I expect we are still trying to build through the draft and pick up role players in free agency. We aren't really in a position to do a hell of a lot more than that.

I don't like sucking for 13 years straight either.

Well you made an invalid point, so clearly, you did need a lesson.

I agree that the team isn't going anywhere until we get a QB, but realistically, we aren't getting one this year unless we get extremely lucky in the draft. But, that's no reason to ignore the other holes. They should be doing everything possible to make the QB's job easier when we do find one. And yes, the cap space is a bit of a concern, but do you honestly believe that there are no WR or OL or LB vets out there that wouldn't sign a front-loaded 2 year contract? I don't believe that for a second, and we have the cap room to pull that off.

Again, I'm not talking about Mario Williams type deals here. I'm just talking about getting a G to replace the TWO we lost or getting an LB who can possibly start and at least provide some vet leadership or getting a WR who can be at least a replacement for Nelson. This shouldn't be too much to ask, but with Nix, it is.

[feldspar]

Well you made an invalid point, so clearly, you did need a lesson.

I agree that the team isn't going anywhere until we get a QB, but realistically, we aren't getting one this year unless we get extremely lucky in the draft. But, that's no reason to ignore the other holes. They should be doing everything possible to make the QB's job easier when we do find one. And yes, the cap space is a bit of a concern, but do you honestly believe that there are no WR or OL or LB vets out there that wouldn't sign a front-loaded 2 year contract? I don't believe that for a second, and we have the cap room to pull that off.

Again, I'm not talking about Mario Williams type deals here. I'm just talking about getting a G to replace the TWO we lost or getting an LB who can possibly start and at least provide some vet leadership or getting a WR who can be at least a replacement for Nelson. This shouldn't be too much to ask, but with Nix, it is.

LMAO...set another one straight, huh? My point was that the Bills could get a decent player or two in free agency in the following months. The free agent market isn't set until the season starts. I was not wrong.

We DID get a LB that can possibly start in Manny Lawson. Not saying he's great or anything, but this did happen. I'm glad that you would concede that the cap is "a bit of a concern," but you seem to be underplaying it's importance. Again, about $10.5 million is what we have, from what I understand. And a front-loaded two-year contract? Yeah, because all of the best available players are looking for something like that, especially for the rare opportunity to join a team like the Buffalo Bills. Welker signed a two-year deal, but there is not a chance in hell he would have come to Buffalo. Besides, that two-year deal would likely be up by the time the Bills get anywhere close to contending.

Wait until next year and we have to re-sign Wood and Byrd and there is a meaningless front-loaded two-year deal in the way along with Fitz's dead-cap money continuing to haunt us.

Like you said, the Bills have too many holes...so they need to spread that money around as best they can and spend it wisely. It's frustrating, but it's reality. For them to get into bidding wars for some of the most sought-after free agents in the beginning of the free agency would be stupid and shortsighted IMO. Look for the Bills to pick up a number of role players or mediocre talent...chances are that we are talking about upgrades. That's the sad reality.