why do many bills fans say our oline sucks...

[NOT THE DUDE...]

i dont get it. watching previous games the past two years, and seeing guys like urbik, wood, hairston, young, glenn, pears, simply move people back 3-5 yards off the line, and simply destroy people, why do so many bills fans think our oline sucks.

yeah fitz got rid of it quick, but the oline still did good in pass protection.... and the run blocking when healthy is only behind the 49ers imo. i saw hairston and urbik move people back like 8 yards sometimes. something i havent seen since the 90s


i just dont understand.

and we have nice prospects with talent on the bench like sanders, brown, welch who have some nice ability that could develop. and they are all huge.

[kishoph]

Even with how well the O-line has past the past few seasons, there's people that say, "we got the worst O-line in football." Losing Levitre was a loss IMO, but it's not like he's irreplaceable, the Bills have done good in turning players that were thought to be worthless into viable O-linemen and it also helps that Levitre's replacement is going to be between Wood and Glenn, which I'm sure helped Levitre.

[Bunion]

Can't speak for other Bills fans, but for me it's because we dumped Joe D'Alessandris for no good reason and replaced him with this guy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Morris_(American_football) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Morris_(American_football))

[BillsU]

Can't speak for other Bills fans, but for me it's because we dumped Joe D'Alessandris for no good reason and replaced him with this guy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Morris_(American_football) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Morris_(American_football)) What's wrong with Morris? It seems he's had a pretty good success with the teams he's been with. http://www.buffalobills.com/team/coaches/morris_pat/ee7bdd7d-6f6d-48b1-bf3a-7265dc1f49b7

[EDS]

I am not sure who is saying the o-line sucks, that is probably being overdramatic if anything. That said, Levitre was the teams best lineman the last few years and it will be interesting to see the impact of his loss. I personnaly would be more comfortable if they had brought in better talent via free agency or the draft to fill the hole.

[justasportsfan]

I don't think it sucks but I don't think it's better than last years

[SCBILLFAN1]

Levitre is a bit over rated. Dependable but over rated. The Bills line is respected.
http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/40484/179/2012-Offensive-Line-Rankings?pg=2

[Pride]

Our O-Line was decent at run blocking... however there are many of us believe that the reason Fitz couldn't throw deep was in large part to the lack of sustained protection for more than 2.5-3 seconds. This 2013 team wants to go verticle... the O-Line will need to get better at holding their blocks for 4-5 seconds.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

Our O-Line was decent at run blocking... however there are many of us believe that the reason Fitz couldn't throw deep was in large part to the lack of sustained protection for more than 2.5-3 seconds. This 2013 team wants to go verticle... the O-Line will need to get better at holding their blocks for 4-5 seconds.

the oline could do that. remember graham open 6-8 times deep last year, only to see fitz underthrow it or be horribly inaccurate?

im not saying our pass protection is great, but the run blocking is, and our pass blocking talent is top 15...

i watched a lot of big ten ball, and sam young was a great player there. and the past two years he has done really well when in the game. i just think people are living in the jaroun era with the oline when it truly was disgusting

[NOT THE DUDE...]

and levitre was not our best olineman the past two years, wood was when healthy.

he was the best center in football the 1st 10 weeks of 2011. in the raider game he simply threw john henderson to the ground on spillers 26 yd run, as if john henderson was his *****

[SabreEleven]

Fitz couldn't throw deep because he sucks at throwing the ball period.

[Bunion]

What's wrong with Morris? It seems he's had a pretty good success with the teams he's been with. http://www.buffalobills.com/team/coaches/morris_pat/ee7bdd7d-6f6d-48b1-bf3a-7265dc1f49b7

He was out of football last year, which statistically was also our OL's best under Joe D. In 2011 Football Outsiders ranked his OL in Tampa Bay at #22. We were #12
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2011
The Stats at NFL.com show that we yielded 5 more QB hits, 9 fewer sacks, 0.7 more yards-per-carry, and 7 fewer negative running plays than TB for the same year.
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&statisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&conference=ALL&role=TM&season=2011&seasonType=REG
In 2010, Joe D's first year, Pat's OL was 11th, ours was 20th per Football Outsiders.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2010
The Stats at NFL.com show that in terms of production, our OL and Minnesota's OL were almost identical. Minnesota had 0.1 more yards-per-carry, 1 more negative play, gave up 2 more sacks, but 7 fewer QB hits.
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&statisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&conference=ALL&role=TM&season=2010&seasonType=REG

It seems like we fired the guy who was getting better, and hired the guy who was getting worse.

[Mahdi]

Our O-Line was decent at run blocking... however there are many of us believe that the reason Fitz couldn't throw deep was in large part to the lack of sustained protection for more than 2.5-3 seconds. This 2013 team wants to go verticle... the O-Line will need to get better at holding their blocks for 4-5 seconds.

You don't get more than 3 to 3.5 seconds to throw in the NFL so 4 or 5 rarely happens. 2.5 to 3 seconds is enough to get a ball downfield.

It takes a WR about 3 seconds to travel 30 yards right, so you also have to account for the time the ball travels in the air. Together that is more than enough to have the ball land 50-60 yards downfield.

[BertSquirtgum]

Our O-Line was decent at run blocking... however there are many of us believe that the reason Fitz couldn't throw deep was in large part to the lack of sustained protection for more than 2.5-3 seconds. This 2013 team wants to go verticle... the O-Line will need to get better at holding their blocks for 4-5 seconds.

So it was because he didn't have time and not because of his noodle arm? Riiiiight

[SpikedLemonade]

Last year's offensive schemes made our OL look better than it was.

It was an average OL last year and has taken a step or two back going into this year.

We are one injury to Eric Woods away from the OL being a below average NFL OL.

[EDS]

and levitre was not our best olineman the past two years, wood was when healthy.

he was the best center in football the 1st 10 weeks of 2011. in the raider game he simply threw john henderson to the ground on spillers 26 yd run, as if john henderson was his *****

I disagree with Wood being better than Levitre the past two years. John Henderson was on his last legs in the NFL in 2011 (he was done as an elite player by 2008) so color me unimpressed by Woods tossing him aside.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

I disagree with Wood being better than Levitre the past two years. John Henderson was on his last legs in the NFL in 2011 (he was done as an elite player by 2008) so color me unimpressed by Woods tossing him aside.



Really? how about when urbik and wood moved wilfork 10 yard off the ball on jackson 15 yd run in the 2nd qtr in 2011. that **** never, EVER happened before nix got here.

or on jacksons 80 yd run vs the giants, urbik LITERALLY PICKED UP CANTY AND moved him 8 yards to the left... it was like a dump truck scooped canty up.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

or watch opening day last year, when urbik and hairston moved the right side back like 5 yards on spillers 69 yd td run. it was incredible. for some odd reason, gailey didnt run that much....

the point being, the talent is fine. we just need a qb

[BillsU]

He was out of football last year, which statistically was also our OL's best under Joe D. In 2011 Football Outsiders ranked his OL in Tampa Bay at #22. We were #12 http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2011 The Stats at NFL.com show that we yielded 5 more QB hits, 9 fewer sacks, 0.7 more yards-per-carry, and 7 fewer negative running plays than TB for the same year. http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&statisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&conference=ALL&role=TM&season=2011&seasonType=REG In 2010, Joe D's first year, Pat's OL was 11th, ours was 20th per Football Outsiders. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2010 The Stats at NFL.com show that in terms of production, our OL and Minnesota's OL were almost identical. Minnesota had 0.1 more yards-per-carry, 1 more negative play, gave up 2 more sacks, but 7 fewer QB hits. http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&statisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&conference=ALL&role=TM&season=2010&seasonType=REG It seems like we fired the guy who was getting better, and hired the guy who was getting worse. Most new coaches hire their ouwn guys that's just the way it works. I also believe Morris was only out of work because he wanted some time off think I heard that on the John Murphy Show. Still the stats. on Morris are damn good so i'm fine with him as O-line coach. with Marrone, Adkins having some input I'm sure. I am a Syracuse fan and their offensive line didn't give up many sacks despite only getting 2-3 star recruits (Pugh first round pick I think was a 2 star) which shows Marrone knows how to coach up players.

[SpikedLemonade]

I am a Syracuse fan and their offensive line didn't give up many sacks despite only getting 2-3 star recruits (Pugh first round pick I think was a 2 star) which shows Marrone knows how to coach up players.

They also mostly played against 2-3 star recruits.

I hope this Syracuse worship works out because Marrone is in the BIG league now.

[BillsU]

They also mostly played against 2-3 star recruits. I hope this Syracuse worship works out because Marrone is in the BIG league now. Like he wasn't in the big league when he was coaching with the Saints? Oh and Syracuse beat some pretty good teams, off the top of my head we beat a Louisville team that was ranked #9 and beat their ass handily, beat West Virginia 3 years in a row and beat Missouri, hung with USC until the 4th QTR.. Sure the big East isn't that great (thankfully were leaving that dump) but we did beat some quality opponents.

[SpikedLemonade]

Like he wasn't in the big league when he was coaching with the Saints? Oh and Syracuse beat some pretty good teams, off the top of my head we beat a Louisville team that was ranked #9 and beat their ass handily, beat West Virginia 3 years in a row and beat Missouri, hung with USC until the 4th QTR.. Sure the big East isn't that great (thankfully were leaving that dump) but we did beat some quality opponents.

Marrone was the Offensive Coordinator when Sean Payton was the Head Coach for the Saints.

Read that above line again.

Do you understand?

Pettine was the Defensive Coordinator when Ryan was the Head Coach.

Do you understand who was making the calls?

All we are betting on is that these guys learned from guys who were making the calls.

[malvado78]

Marrone was the Offensive Coordinator when Sean Payton was the Head Coach for the Saints.

Read that above line again.

Do you understand?

Pettine was the Defensive Coordinator when Ryan was the Head Coach.

Do you understand who was making the calls?

All we are betting on is that these guys learned from guys who were making the calls.

I never realized that Coordinator in the NFL meant "clipboard holder". Got it now though. Thanks we are SCREWED!!!! /sarcasm

[SpikedLemonade]

I never realized that Coordinator in the NFL meant "clipboard holder". Got it now though. Thanks we are SCREWED!!!! /sarcasm

Come on dude.

The Head Coaches when these guys were coordinators were probably the best at that time.

Do you expect them to really not over shadow their sub-ordinates?

[malvado78]

Come on dude.

The Head Coaches when these guys were coordinators were probably the best at that time.

Do you expect them to really not over shadow their sub-ordinates?

If they are the best then they can get good people to work with them. If you work with the best you best have your learning hat on.

This is the whole principle behind the coaching trees.

P.S. I am in no way, shape, or form implying that Ryan is the best. I refuse to even imply a complement to that piece of garbage.

[jwenger]

We have a lot of work to do to get all these new guys and new coaches together
and field a decent team. All I know is that we have to get WOOD and BYRD extended
for fair money or I mean GOOD money. Pay them for what the best centers and DB's
are making and prioritize it now OBD.

[Mahdi]

I never realized that Coordinator in the NFL meant "clipboard holder". Got it now though. Thanks we are SCREWED!!!! /sarcasm

There is validity to what Spike is saying...

Marrone was OC for Peyton, everyone knows Peyton called the plays with consultation from Brees.

Rex Ryan was also the defensive playcaller for the Jets.

So these guys, although I like their "upbringing" and their demeanor, are not proven in the least.

[SpikedLemonade]

There is validity to what Spike is saying...

Marrone was OC for Peyton, everyone knows Peyton called the plays with consultation from Brees.

Rex Ryan was also the defensive playcaller for the Jets.

So these guys, although I like their "upbringing" and their demeanor, are not proven in the least.

Right and that is why the coaching staff faces a steep learning curve this year when we have a much tougher schedule than last year.

To me the coaching staff gets a pass this year no matter what the record.

If they can get to 7-9 or 8-8 in 2014, that would be amazing.

Play-offs in 2015 would be a good measuring stick.

[trapezeus]

oline has been dismantled with two departures, lack of replacements and the injury filled nature of the positions. So do you think by week 8 that the current starters will be playing as one unit? and if not, do you trust the depth? and do you think the transition from the line calls they were making for 3 years will occur seamlessly by week 1?

I personally don't think so. so i think they will be worse than last year. and if injuries happen, you'll see a bad OL line during the Jauron days. and those games were so painful because the offense couldnt do anything.

marrone might be great and coaching an oline. we just have to hope its not a 2-3 year project. it is upsetting the team went mostly skill positions in a draft deep with linemen. we'll see if that bet turns out.

[justasportsfan]

oline has been dismantled with two departures, lack of replacements and the injury filled nature of the positions. So do you think by week 8 that the current starters will be playing as one unit? and if not, do you trust the depth? and do you think the transition from the line calls they were making for 3 years will occur seamlessly by week 1?

I personally don't think so. so i think they will be worse than last year. and if injuries happen, you'll see a bad OL line during the Jauron days. and those games were so painful because the offense couldnt do anything.

marrone might be great and coaching an oline. we just have to hope its not a 2-3 year project. it is upsetting the team went mostly skill positions in a draft deep with linemen. we'll see if that bet turns out.

The departure of Levitre has the OL dismantled? Thats just one part of the OL. Who is the other one? Riehnhart?

[trapezeus]

reihnhart was depth. i just haven't seen any additions to the OL in a OL heavy draft. so the drop off is significant. then add into the mix that its a new offense. so it takes time to adjust to what they want.

i just don't think they'll have it together by week 1 to provide adequate protection. and as a result, i think kolb will get injured early. then depending on if tjax is here or not, its tjax or manuel to go in and deal with it.

[better days]

There is validity to what Spike is saying...

Marrone was OC for Peyton, everyone knows Peyton called the plays with consultation from Brees.

Rex Ryan was also the defensive playcaller for the Jets.

So these guys, although I like their "upbringing" and their demeanor, are not proven in the least.

Pettine called the entire defense for about half of last season & for the 2nd half he called the defense on first & second downs.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

the oline will be the 2nd best in the nfl behind the 49ers. glenn/hairston and pears at ot are 2nd to none. their run blocking is 1st rate. brown/wood/urbik have great power and smarts. I love the oline unlike many here

[better days]

Right and that is why the coaching staff faces a steep learning curve this year when we have a much tougher schedule than last year.

To me the coaching staff gets a pass this year no matter what the record.

If they can get to 7-9 or 8-8 in 2014, that would be amazing.

Play-offs in 2015 would be a good measuring stick.


If the Bills get to 7-9 THIS YEAR that will be ONE more win than last year. Hardly amazing IMO. Chan was fired for winning only 6 games last year. I expect Marrone to win at least that many this year.

[kishoph]

There is validity to what Spike is saying...

Marrone was OC for Peyton, everyone knows Peyton called the plays with consultation from Brees.

Rex Ryan was also the defensive playcaller for the Jets.

So these guys, although I like their "upbringing" and their demeanor, are not proven in the least.

Just because the head coaches were calling the plays, doesn't mean that they designed that defense (Jets) or offense (Saints), the coordinators are the ones that put together and coach those groups, not the HC. I find it humorous that when something positive is said about the Jets defense, there's people that say Rex called the plays, but when anything negative is said, then it was Pettine's defense.

[SpikedLemonade]

the oline will be the 2nd best in the nfl behind the 49ers.

Ha Ha Ha!!!!!

[EDS]

I never realized that Coordinator in the NFL meant "clipboard holder". Got it now though. Thanks we are SCREWED!!!! /sarcasm

Quick - who was the Bills offensive coordinator last season and what was his role?

[EDS]

Just because the head coaches were calling the plays, doesn't mean that they designed that defense (Jets) or offense (Saints), the coordinators are the ones that put together and coach those groups, not the HC. I find it humorous that when something positive is said about the Jets defense, there's people that say Rex called the plays, but when anything negative is said, then it was Pettine's defense.

Not all coordinators design the schemes. Did the Bills offensive coordinator last season design the Bills offense?

[NOT THE DUDE...]

Ha Ha Ha!!!!!

whos better? when you combine youth, talent, production, and size?

- - - Updated - - -

only the 49ers imo

[better days]

There is validity to what Spike is saying...

Marrone was OC for Peyton, everyone knows Peyton called the plays with consultation from Brees.

Rex Ryan was also the defensive playcaller for the Jets.

So these guys, although I like their "upbringing" and their demeanor, are not proven in the least.

As for the Bills Coaches, Marrone has been a HC at Syracuse. IMO that is more important than his OC position with the Saints. And Hackett will be the OC & call the plays on offense. That may be a concern but if he is as smart as his father Paul, we should be OK.

On defense, Pettine has been with Ryan for quite a while so I'm sure he learned something from him & as I said he did call the defense for the Jets at least some of the time.

[cookie G]

whos better? when you combine youth, talent, production, and size?

- - - Updated - - -

only the 49ers imo

Off the top of my head...

Seattle's better overall, with few weak spots, and fewer question marks;

Baltimore is far better when McKinnie isn't lazy and Oher is allowed to move to right tackle...they showed that in late December and the playoffs;

New England overall has better tackle play and of course has Logan Mankins on the inside. Brady's release isn't the only reason he gets sacked so few times, or why they annually score so many points.

NO has proven to be better over the past few years, we'll see how Brown does in place of Bushrod;

Tennessee made major upgrades with Levitre and Warmack, to go along with Michael Roos and Velsasco;

Jake Long and Roger Saffold is a better tackle combo than we have, as is Joe Thomas and Mitchell Schwartz;

If given the choice between our line and Tampa's, with Penn, Nicks, Zuttah Joseph and Bushrod, I'd take theirs.

Hairston is average at best;
I love Cordy Glenn, but I wouldn't call him an elite pass blocker. Good, but not someone you can leave speed rushers to without help.
We'll see how good Urbik is when EW can't help him out on every pass play;
and of course we have the "Buddy really likes this guy" flavor of the week at LG. They don't have a single guy that's shown he can start in the NFL, much less a guy that can pass block without center help and do it well, like Levitre could.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

Off the top of my head...

Seattle's better overall, with few weak spots, and fewer question marks;

Baltimore is far better when McKinnie isn't lazy and Oher is allowed to move to right tackle...they showed that in late December and the playoffs;

New England overall has better tackle play and of course has Logan Mankins on the inside. Brady's release isn't the only reason he gets sacked so few times, or why they annually score so many points.

NO has proven to be better over the past few years, we'll see how Brown does in place of Bushrod;

Tennessee made major upgrades with Levitre and Warmack, to go along with Michael Roos and Velsasco;

Jake Long and Roger Saffold is a better tackle combo than we have, as is Joe Thomas and Mitchell Schwartz;

If given the choice between our line and Tampa's, with Penn, Nicks, Zuttah Joseph and Bushrod, I'd take theirs.

Hairston is average at best;
I love Cordy Glenn, but I wouldn't call him an elite pass blocker. Good, but not someone you can leave speed rushers to without help.
We'll see how good Urbik is when EW can't help him out on every pass play;
and of course we have the "Buddy really likes this guy" flavor of the week at LG. They don't have a single guy that's shown he can start in the NFL, much less a guy that can pass block without center help and do it well, like Levitre could.
hairston is an average pass blocker with huge length. he is however, a dominant run blocker, as is urbik... wood imo and glenn, have the ability to be the best at their spots. brown can be a average mauler with great size...

- - - Updated - - -

you have to give nix credit on that one, the oline is 100x better than it was for years prior

[NOT THE DUDE...]

Off the top of my head...

Seattle's better overall, with few weak spots, and fewer question marks;

Baltimore is far better when McKinnie isn't lazy and Oher is allowed to move to right tackle...they showed that in late December and the playoffs;

New England overall has better tackle play and of course has Logan Mankins on the inside. Brady's release isn't the only reason he gets sacked so few times, or why they annually score so many points.

NO has proven to be better over the past few years, we'll see how Brown does in place of Bushrod;

Tennessee made major upgrades with Levitre and Warmack, to go along with Michael Roos and Velsasco;

Jake Long and Roger Saffold is a better tackle combo than we have, as is Joe Thomas and Mitchell Schwartz;

If given the choice between our line and Tampa's, with Penn, Nicks, Zuttah Joseph and Bushrod, I'd take theirs.

Hairston is average at best;
I love Cordy Glenn, but I wouldn't call him an elite pass blocker. Good, but not someone you can leave speed rushers to without help.
We'll see how good Urbik is when EW can't help him out on every pass play;
and of course we have the "Buddy really likes this guy" flavor of the week at LG. They don't have a single guy that's shown he can start in the NFL, much less a guy that can pass block without center help and do it well, like Levitre could.

the saints tackles are not better, tampa? I concede that one if nicks and joseph are healthy. st Louis, hell no... seattle, ill concede that one, but not by much

- - - Updated - - -

Cleveland, no.

[Buffalo Billy Bison]

Hell Morris has over a dozen years experience in the NFL teaching OL's to be successful. Let's give the guy a chance and see what he brings to the table. Remember that when HC's get fired that usually means most assistants get let go with him!

[Mace]

Off the top of my head...

Seattle's better overall, with few weak spots, and fewer question marks;

Baltimore is far better when McKinnie isn't lazy and Oher is allowed to move to right tackle...they showed that in late December and the playoffs;

New England overall has better tackle play and of course has Logan Mankins on the inside. Brady's release isn't the only reason he gets sacked so few times, or why they annually score so many points.

NO has proven to be better over the past few years, we'll see how Brown does in place of Bushrod;

Tennessee made major upgrades with Levitre and Warmack, to go along with Michael Roos and Velsasco;

Jake Long and Roger Saffold is a better tackle combo than we have, as is Joe Thomas and Mitchell Schwartz;

If given the choice between our line and Tampa's, with Penn, Nicks, Zuttah Joseph and Bushrod, I'd take theirs.

Hairston is average at best;
I love Cordy Glenn, but I wouldn't call him an elite pass blocker. Good, but not someone you can leave speed rushers to without help.
We'll see how good Urbik is when EW can't help him out on every pass play;
and of course we have the "Buddy really likes this guy" flavor of the week at LG. They don't have a single guy that's shown he can start in the NFL, much less a guy that can pass block without center help and do it well, like Levitre could.

Nails it.

[BillsFever21]

the saints tackles are not better, tampa? I concede that one if nicks and joseph are healthy. st Louis, hell no... seattle, ill concede that one, but not by much

- - - Updated - - -

Cleveland, no.

Why would Nicks or Joseph matter in the equation? I've heard a lot lately that you can easily find a replacement and throw almost anybody in at guard and be just fine. If that's the case then it won't matter if they are healthy or not and it really shouldn't affect their line that much either way.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

Why would Nicks or Joseph matter in the equation? I've heard a lot lately that you can easily find a replacement and throw almost anybody in at guard and be just fine. If that's the case then it won't matter if they are healthy or not and it really shouldn't affect their line that much either way.

except I never said that about guard, I said that about safety. nice try though