Interesting Article On Kaepernick Draft

[ghz in pittsburgh]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/colin-kaepernick-almost-raider-glad-wasn-t-161153070.html

I guess he was never in Bills' Radar then. Hind sight is 20-20. I'd guess the 49ers must've contacted the Bills as well. I wonder what the price the Bills were asking then.

Certainly a Buddy Nix miss, though tons of people complained that Kaep was drafted too high.

Now back to EJ Manuel. In a couple of years if he pans out, you bet there will be stories somebody somewhere throw something across the room when the Bills announced their pick @16.

This story also points to the importance of keeping your intention vague, something Nix didn't do well as a GM. Whaley, from the school of the Steelers, should do better in that department.

[swiper]

IDK about this player. The 49ers did well with Alex Smith. Then surprised opponents with Kaepernick's play because it was different from Smith. I think he came back to earth a bit by the end of the season kind of signifying that, perhaps, defenses were starting to catch on how to defend against him. Russell Wilson seemed to be the better of the two. I guess there's just not a enough of a body of work for me regarding Kaepernick. Who else could see Smith excelling in KC and Kaepernick having setbacks in SF this season?

[Thief]

Anyone who thinks Kap's success was just because he surprised people didn't see him play enough. Dude completely is NFL legit.

[justasportsfan]

I wanted us to draft him in the 3rd

[The last buffalo fan]

I wanted us to draft him in the 3rd
That's way too high, I'm fine in the 5th

[feldspar]

I wanted him in the second. When that didn't happen, I wanted Mallett in the third. I had my eye on Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins last year. I'll always wonder if the Bills would have taken Cousins in the 4th if the Redskins didn't unexpectedly taken him. This year, I was hoping that the Bills took Landry Jones in the 4th round despite having taken Manuel in the first...kinda like what the Redskins did the year before. Double down on the position because it's THAT important. I'd rather have the insurance of Landry Jones than Duke Williams. Nix said that the Bills "very seriously" considered taking a second QB in this year's draft.

It's inexplicable that the Bills never got a legitimate developmental prospect in the event Fitzpatrick didn't work out, something I NEVER had faith in. Kind of inexcusable, really, and that was Buddy's largest blunder. Even worse than hiring Gailey.

I think this article should be a lesson to those that think that the Bills took Manuel too high and should have traded down again. I also read this:


The perception by many is that the Bills' selection of Manuel at No. 16 overall was a reach. Representatives from multiple teams have told me, however, that they saw the former Florida State star as the top quarterback in the 2013 draft class. One highly placed source for a team other than the Bills said Manuel was the best "by a wide margin."

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/blog/rob-rang/22203399/finding-the-fits-alonso-could-star-as-qb-of-bills-defense

Count me as one of the people that were shocked that we picked Manuel. I did not see that coming. But if other teams knew that the Bills liked Manuel, they may have tried to trade ahead of us to get him, a lot like what the 49ers did to the Raiders to get Kaepernick in the 2011 draft. It's very possible that he would have been gone by our second round pick. The Bills did the right thing. They got the man they wanted and picked up Kiko Alonso in the process. Drafting a QB usually has a different set of rules than other positions...the "value" is different. It'll be interesting to see what happens with Manuel here.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

Nix is not a forceful GM. He works with the HC, which is OK. Most of the NFL teams structured that way. The reason for me to say that is in the draft of guys like Troup, Sheppard, wooing Mario. Chan wanted 3-4, so he drafted guys like Troup. When Chan hired Wannestedt, Nix went out and got Mario and Anderson. The 2nd draft during Chan's time is full of guys the coaching staff manned the senior bowl. You can see the influence of the coaching staff. In that scenario, it will be poisonous if the HC believes in a QB on the roster and the GM spends a high pick on another QB. That's why I say hiring Gailey is really the biggest biggest mistake Nix made. Chan Gailey simply is not a HC material, he's one sided, has no overall vision of the team for future. He's too much into his little world of spread offense, getting usage of undrafted guys.

[justasportsfan]

That's way too high, I'm fine in the 5th

I guess I was closer than you Nenita.

[justasportsfan]

Nix is not a forceful GM. He works with the HC, which is OK. Most of the NFL teams structured that way. The reason for me to say that is in the draft of guys like Troup, Sheppard, wooing Mario. Chan wanted 3-4, so he drafted guys like Troup. When Chan hired Wannestedt, Nix went out and got Mario and Anderson. The 2nd draft during Chan's time is full of guys the coaching staff manned the senior bowl. You can see the influence of the coaching staff. In that scenario, it will be poisonous if the HC believes in a QB on the roster and the GM spends a high pick on another QB. That's why I say hiring Gailey is really the biggest biggest mistake Nix made. Chan Gailey simply is not a HC material, he's one sided, has no overall vision of the team for future. He's too much into his little world of spread offense, getting usage of undrafted guys.

this.

Nix had Brees and Rivers in SD. I think he knew a thing or two about qb's. It's speculation but I wouldn't be surprised that he listened to Chan when it came to Fitz.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

I gotta say EJ Manuel is high risk. Somewhat a try by Nix to adapt to the new world influenced by the guys like Luck, RJ III, Wilson, Kap, Dalton. Brees and Rivers were much safer picks, 4 year starters, lots of tapes, yearly progression...

Many people attributed Kap's success to Harbough for being a QB guru (guess what, he has no failures so far. Tutored Luck in college; raised Smith to a level he's never been; groomed a long term project Kap to where he's today). We have to see what Marrone does for Manuel. At least he had some success with Nassib at Syracuse.

[The Jokeman]

I gotta say EJ Manuel is high risk. Somewhat a try by Nix to adapt to the new world influenced by the guys like Luck, RJ III, Wilson, Kap, Dalton. Brees and Rivers were much safer picks, 4 year starters, lots of tapes, yearly progression...

Many people attributed Kap's success to Harbough for being a QB guru (guess what, he has no failures so far. Tutored Luck in college; raised Smith to a level he's never been; groomed a long term project Kap to where he's today). We have to see what Marrone does for Manuel. At least he had some success with Nassib at Syracuse.

Yeah but Marrone didn't do much for Chase Daniels in New Orleans as OC. That said I'll give him the benefit of the doubt as he did develop G Brandon Moore with the Jets. As to me Marrone first and foremost is/was an offensive lineman/coach. I will give him credit working with young Hackett to develop Nassib from an unknown to a 4th Round pick. Of course to me HC's roles aren't to develop players but instead develop strong assistant coaches who develop great schemes to make the most of their talents and make important game time decisions when a game is on the line. My only criticism is I really would have preferred finding an OC with more NFL experience and perhaps leave Hackett as his QB coach to learn behind said OC.

[BillsFever21]

this.

Nix had Brees and Rivers in SD. I think he knew a thing or two about qb's. It's speculation but I wouldn't be surprised that he listened to Chan when it came to Fitz.

Nix wasn't the GM in San Diego. Whatever input he may have had the final decision came down to John Butler plus Brees and especially Rivers were highly touted.

I'm not saying he screwed up with Manuel and that will play itself out but he doesn't know his QB's that well when he passed on guys like Kapernick, Dalton and Wilson in two separate drafts when we needed a QB to begin with. However Gailey felt about Fitzpatrick it's the GM's job to make the final call especially when he was a career journeyman QB to begin with. He needed a backup plan and he didn't.

If Gailey talked him out of drafting one of them guys because of Fitzpatrick then that's the fault of Buddy Nix. He is the one who hired Gailey in the first place and then the guy who agreed to give Fitzpatrick a big contract after one good month of football. All of that falls on Nix.

[swiper]

Anyone who thinks Kap's success was just because he surprised people didn't see him play enough. Dude completely is NFL legit.

I saw him play plenty. He's a fad.

[BillsFever21]

Yeah but Marrone didn't do much for Chase Daniels in New Orleans as OC. That said I'll give him the benefit of the doubt as he did develop G Brandon Moore with the Jets. As to me Marrone first and foremost is/was an offensive lineman/coach. I will give him credit working with young Hackett to develop Nassib from an unknown to a 4th Round pick. Of course to me HC's roles aren't to develop players but instead develop strong assistant coaches who develop great schemes to make the most of their talents and make important game time decisions when a game is on the line. My only criticism is I really would have preferred finding an OC with more NFL experience and perhaps leave Hackett as his QB coach to learn behind said OC.

That's also been my biggest criticism up to this point. It's not very common to have a 33 year old OC in the NFL let alone one that never worked his way up the NFL ranks to begin with and proved himself by doing a good job as a QB coach or other positions.

I also would've much rather had him as a QB coach to start off before making him an OC. It will be Marrone's offense and he will be the guy calling the plays but it's still important to have a guy with experience at OC to help get the offensive unit ready for the game and coaching them up. Some past successful and failed HC looking for a job would've been ideal or even somebody who previously had some type of success and experience as an OC or even as a QB coach.

At least let the guy get his feet wet before throwing him into the fire for the first time in the NFL as an OC. In a couple years if he did a good job as a QB coach then he could've worked his way into the OC position. I want Marrone focused on his position and not trying to teach somebody to be in charge of the offensive staff during the week. The only positive is that he has worked with Marrone at Syracuse but that's a whole different ballgame then being an OC at the NFL level.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

Nix wasn't the GM in San Diego. Whatever input he may have had the final decision came down to John Butler plus Brees and especially Rivers were highly touted.

I'm not saying he screwed up with Manuel and that will play itself out but he doesn't know his QB's that well when he passed on guys like Kapernick, Dalton and Wilson in two separate drafts when we needed a QB to begin with. However Gailey felt about Fitzpatrick it's the GM's job to make the final call especially when he was a career journeyman QB to begin with. He needed a backup plan and he didn't.

If Gailey talked him out of drafting one of them guys because of Fitzpatrick then that's the fault of Buddy Nix. He is the one who hired Gailey in the first place and then the guy who agreed to give Fitzpatrick a big contract after one good month of football. All of that falls on Nix.
Again my point has been the biggest wrong of Nix tenure as GM is the hiring of Gailey and gave him 3 years.

[Goobylal]

Yeah but Marrone didn't do much for Chase Daniels in New Orleans as OC. That said I'll give him the benefit of the doubt as he did develop G Brandon Moore with the Jets. As to me Marrone first and foremost is/was an offensive lineman/coach. I will give him credit working with young Hackett to develop Nassib from an unknown to a 4th Round pick. Of course to me HC's roles aren't to develop players but instead develop strong assistant coaches who develop great schemes to make the most of their talents and make important game time decisions when a game is on the line. My only criticism is I really would have preferred finding an OC with more NFL experience and perhaps leave Hackett as his QB coach to learn behind said OC.
Chase Daniel hasn't had a chance to showcase himself. He's spent all 4 years in the NFL behind a HOF'er who barely leaves the field.

[MikeInRoch]

Who else could see Smith excelling in KC and Kaepernick having setbacks in SF this season?

Not at all. Smith will stink in KC.

[BillsFever21]

Not at all. Smith will stink in KC.

I don't think he will stink but he won't be as successful as he was in San Francisco the past 1.5 years he played under Jim Harbaugh. He wasn't even great then but did a good job at managing the game.

He will be in KC who has some good weapons and a coach with a QB friendly system where most QB's who played under Reid had some success. If Reid still wants to fling it 40-50 times a game like he did in Philly then Smith won't be that successful. He's not that kind of a QB and he's at his best at around 25 passes with the team built around the run and him managing the game off of the strong running game. KC has a great RB in Charles but Reid had a great RB in Philly and rarely ran the ball either. I guess we will have to wait and see. If the defense doesn't play well and he needs to be in shootouts then it will make it only worse for him.

[feldspar]

That's also been my biggest criticism up to this point. It's not very common to have a 33 year old OC in the NFL let alone one that never worked his way up the NFL ranks to begin with and proved himself by doing a good job as a QB coach or other positions.

I also would've much rather had him as a QB coach to start off before making him an OC. It will be Marrone's offense and he will be the guy calling the plays but it's still important to have a guy with experience at OC to help get the offensive unit ready for the game and coaching them up. Some past successful and failed HC looking for a job would've been ideal or even somebody who previously had some type of success and experience as an OC or even as a QB coach.

At least let the guy get his feet wet before throwing him into the fire for the first time in the NFL as an OC. In a couple years if he did a good job as a QB coach then he could've worked his way into the OC position. I want Marrone focused on his position and not trying to teach somebody to be in charge of the offensive staff during the week. The only positive is that he has worked with Marrone at Syracuse but that's a whole different ballgame then being an OC at the NFL level.

Actually, Nathaniel Hackett will be the one calling the offensive plays this year, not Marrone. He DOES have some experience in the NFL, too. He spent 4 years as Offensive Quality Control Coach: 2 years in Tampa Bay, and 2 years in Buffalo. Obviously, he has some Offensive Coordinator experience at Syracuse as well as some experience as QB coach.

His age alarmed me a little at first, but I don't think how old he is an indication of whether he'll succeed or not...that remains to be seen. Hell, Jon Gruden was even younger than Hackett when he got his Offensive Coordinator job in Philly. Gruden was only 34-years-old when he became Head Coach of the Oakland Raiders. Different era maybe, but John Madden was only 33-years-old when he became Head Coach of the Oakland Raiders. The only coaching experience he had before that was 2 years as Linebackers Coach.

Bill Cowher became Defensive Coordinator when he was only 32, having only been a coach of any kind for 4 years before that. He became Head Coach when he wasn't even 35.

Mike Shanahan became Offensive Coordinator for the Broncos before he was even 32, never having been in the NFL at all at that point.

Mike Tomlin wasn't even 2 years older than Hackett when he was named Head Coach of the Steelers.

Don Shula JUST turned 33 when he was named Head Coach of the Dolphins.

You don't have to be an old-timer to succeed is the point. Could be than Hackett will bring some freshness to the offense as well as energy. I'm not going to judge him before he's done anything as Offensive Coordinator for the Bills, and I'm certainly not going to judge him because of his age. He's not the youngest or most inexperienced guy to be given a shot like this. He's got a good decade of various experience at football operations, and don't forget that he comes from a football family. His father was a coach in the NFL and college for over FOUR decades, so don't think for a second that this hasn't gained him quite a bit of insight alone.

We'll see how it goes.

[swiper]

I don't think he will stink but he won't be as successful as he was in San Francisco the past 1.5 years he played under Jim Harbaugh. He wasn't even great then but did a good job at managing the game.

He will be in KC who has some good weapons and a coach with a QB friendly system where most QB's who played under Reid had some success. If Reid still wants to fling it 40-50 times a game like he did in Philly then Smith won't be that successful. He's not that kind of a QB and he's at his best at around 25 passes with the team built around the run and him managing the game off of the strong running game. KC has a great RB in Charles but Reid had a great RB in Philly and rarely ran the ball either. I guess we will have to wait and see. If the defense doesn't play well and he needs to be in shootouts then it will make it only worse for him.

See this is someone that doesn't understand. You want to give Harbaugh the credit and be fashionable by criticizing Smith. He had a 104 QB ranking. That was 3rd best in the league. Harbaugh didn't do that. Smith did. You'll see. Kaepernick came back to earth by the end of his play last season. It will be harder for him this year as d-coordinators are all home studying his play.

[BillsFever21]

See this is someone that doesn't understand. You want to give Harbaugh the credit and be fashionable by criticizing Smith. He had a 104 QB ranking. That was 3rd best in the league. Harbaugh didn't do that. Smith did. You'll see. Kaepernick came back to earth by the end of his play last season. It will be harder for him this year as d-coordinators are all home studying his play.

Alex Smith didn't do squat until Jim Harbaugh arrived. He was considered a bust and they were looking to replace him. Harbaugh coached him well and put him in a good position to succeed by not asking him to do too much. He only averaged 21 pass attempts last season and the team was built around a strong running game and defense.

The only time he threw for over 300 yards was against Buffalo when they made fools of us. Outside of that game he was around 200 yards and a couple games with less then 200 yards. The two games that he had at least 30 pass attempts they lost both of them by a combined score of 50-16 and threw 3 INT's in one of the games.

He was at his best being a game manager and passing around 20-25 times a game. With a good system, coaching and team around him he can help manage the game but he's not elite where he can put the game on his shoulders and win it on a regular basis. This has been proven for 8 years now. They asked him to manage the game and not turn the ball over or take too many chances and it worked.

Kapernick hardly came down to earth at the end of the season. I have no idea where you got that from. He finished the last 3 games with 7 TD passes and 2 INT's along with tearing apart the Packers and Falcons in the playoffs on the way to their SB appearance where they were a few yards away from winning it all.

[Buffalogic]

Kaepernick blows. Every running qb gets one good year under them then people just learn to defend it better. Dude will be out of the league in 4 years.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

Alex Smith didn't do squat until Jim Harbaugh arrived. He was considered a bust and they were looking to replace him. Harbaugh coached him well and put him in a good position to succeed by not asking him to do too much. He only averaged 21 pass attempts last season and the team was built around a strong running game and defense.

The only time he threw for over 300 yards was against Buffalo when they made fools of us. Outside of that game he was around 200 yards and a couple games with less then 200 yards. The two games that he had at least 30 pass attempts they lost both of them by a combined score of 50-16 and threw 3 INT's in one of the games.

He was at his best being a game manager and passing around 20-25 times a game. With a good system, coaching and team around him he can help manage the game but he's not elite where he can put the game on his shoulders and win it on a regular basis. This has been proven for 8 years now. They asked him to manage the game and not turn the ball over or take too many chances and it worked.

Kapernick hardly came down to earth at the end of the season. I have no idea where you got that from. He finished the last 3 games with 7 TD passes and 2 INT's along with tearing apart the Packers and Falcons in the playoffs on the way to their SB appearance where they were a few yards away from winning it all.

I wouldn't say alex smith didn't do squat, he had a really solid 2nd year and then they kept changing coordinators every single year. all harbaugh did was take lots of pressure of him with the running game, and he finally calmed down and just played under control

[NOT THE DUDE...]

Kaepernick blows. Every running qb gets one good year under them then people just learn to defend it better. Dude will be out of the league in 4 years.

lol, yeah he blows... superbowl appearance and great comeback to come up just short, in his 2nd year... what an idiot

[feldspar]

Kaepernick blows. Every running qb gets one good year under them then people just learn to defend it better. Dude will be out of the league in 4 years.

Well, let's hope that's not true, because EJ Manuel ran the ball once per every 5 pass attempts in college...over that, as much as they were trying to downplay that aspect of his game and not label him a "running quarterback." Of course, all QBs pretty much run the ball in college quite a bit more than they do in the pros. Dunno what the average is. Kind of a different game, really. I sure hope that we keep this "read option" thing to a bare minimum with Manuel on the Bills...I don't think it will be successful over time in the NFL, and it's just a matter of time before your QB gets hurt if he runs too much. Gotta do it some if your QB is good at it, whether it's a designed play or not, though.

Cam Newton runs the ball about 20% of the time in the NFL (what Manuel basically did in college), and I think people underestimate how well he played in his second year down the stretch. But Cam Newton ran the ball a lot more than Manuel did in college, if that means anything. Newton ran the ball about as much as he threw it in college. Kaepernick ran the ball a lot more than Manuel did in college too.

RG3 can throw the ball well too, but he ran about 23% of the time last year. It was working pretty well, then of course he got hurt running the ball. Russell Wilson is a good passer too...he ran it a little over 19% of the time. Gotta figure that the threat of running the ball helps to open up the passing game too, though. Then you look at a guy like Andrew Luck...he ran about 9% of the time, little of which was probably designed. As much as I hate to bring up race, "running QBs" are quite often black...they are just generally more athletic at the position, and I don't think that's a stereotype or saying anything negative. The ability or threat of running the ball is a good thing. How many white cornerbacks are there in the NFL? Obviously, some white QBs have done a lot with their feet too. Then, of course there are black quarterbacks like Donovan McNabb, who had a solid career and didn't run as often as what you are seeing now. I hope EJ Manuel's approach to the game is more like McNabb's...even though he CAN run and that should be taken advantage of, the Bills should hopefully not go crazy with that aspect of his game.

Some people act like the read option is some kind of wave of the future in the NFL, but I beg to differ.

Running the ball is fine as long as you don't go crazy with it and are also able to throw the ball.

Kaepernick does NOT "blow," by the way. Quite the opposite, really. I wan't to take him in the second round.

[swiper]

Some people act like the read option is some kind of wave of the future in the NFL, but I beg to differ.

Some of us saw the same thing back with Fran Tarkenton and a couple others. Same thing applies. What wagoncircler said. They get beat up, then their out.


The think about Kaepernick is that he's pretty accurate throwing the ball too.


Russell Wilson was better. And will have the better career, IMO.


Alex Smith didn't do squat until Jim Harbaugh arrived.

LOL. Ok. He developed slower than you expected. BFD. I guess we'll see this year when the two are seperated. You can't give Harbaugh the credit for Smith having the 3rd best QB rating in the league.

[feldspar]

Some of us saw the same thing back with Fran Tarkenton and a couple others. Same thing applies. What wagoncircler said. They get beat up, then their out.

I watched Fran Tarkenton when I was a lad. He's probably a bad example here because he lasted like 18 years and he's a Hall of Famer. Saw a lot of success. The guy is unique in a lot of ways to me. Never saw such a mad scrambler.


Russell Wilson was better. And will have the better career, IMO.

Dunno how you can say that, since Kaepernick helped his team to the verge of winning the Super Bowl. He played VERY well. Didn't even play a whole season yet. Time will tell, and it's interesting things like this that make football fun to follow.

[swiper]

I watched Fran Tarkenton when I was a lad. He's probably a bad example here because he lasted like 18 years and he's a Hall of Famer. Saw a lot of success. The guy is unique in a lot of ways to me. Never saw such a mad scrambler.

He was hurt all the time.



Dunno how you can say that, since Kaepernick helped his team to the verge of winning the Super Bowl. He played VERY well. Didn't even play a whole season yet. Time will tell, and it's interesting things like this that make football fun to follow.

Alex Smith had a lot to do with that success. IDK how Kaepernick gets so much credit.

[feldspar]

He was hurt all the time.




Alex Smith had a lot to do with that success. IDK how Kaepernick gets so much credit.

Fran Tarkenton was NOT hurt all the time. He just wasn't.

And Alex Smith had nothing to do with Kaepernick's success. He gets so much credit because he played very well all the way through the Super Bowl. Granted, he was put into a good situation and all that, but there really isn't that much to put him down about at this point if you look what he's done on the field. The praise is deserved.

[swiper]

Tarkenton was hurt a lot. He played through much more of it than do today's running QBs.

[X-Era]

I've been clamoring for years that you have to overdraft a QB these days when you find one you like. But, although the Bills may have arguably over-drafted Manuel, several others were drafted in a predicted stage of the draft or lower this year.

There doesn't appear to be a rule.

Maybe you have the sure-fire guys that everyone wants and then all the rest. And out of the rest you take the guy that you like the most.

The stakes always seem higher at the QB position. And often it's true that it can make or break a team. It is the most important position on the field. But, if you use the 49ers as an example you can look at a team with a slightly above average starter that drafted a QB out of the 1st round and then went to the Superbowl...

And if Kaep was a bust they still would have had Smith and could have had very similar results.

The 49ers could make an argument that drafting a QB is not a make or break for the team.

For us, Kolb is probably only a slight upgrade to Fitz. He's not our future and may not be a reason we make the playoffs. Which puts more on Manuel to save the team. That stinks for EJ but it's probably true. But then again, T'Jax probably is cut, we have Kolb for a year and if he doesn't look good enough maybe we go after an upgrade to him.

I think the point is that you don't have to put the entire fortunes of your team on your drafted QB... You can offset it with a vet and by building a team around him.

[better days]

Tarkenton was hurt a lot. He played through much more of it than do today's running QBs.

Tarkington was hurt no more than any other QB of that time. PERIOD.

[Mike]

Smith: With great weapons & great coaching, he becomes a very good game manager and an above average QB.

Keap: With same weapons as Smith he becomes a PB, almost unstoppable type of player.

Wilson: With same weapons as above, he becomes elite top 5 type QB.

Wilson & Keap can do more than manage a game, they can win a game by themselves. Wilson's weapons last year were average at best, yet he was dominant towards the end of the season.

Next 15 years will be about these 5 guys: Wilson, RG3, Luck, Keap, & Cam. Sure Rogers and a few others will remain for the next 10years or so, but this is the next generation of elite QBs and if history is any indication these are the men who will win SBs, go to PBs, be the next Manning, Brady, Brees....