Bills hosting C/G Dave Legursky and G Tyronne Green

[X-Era]

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-2/Bills-host-pair-of-free-agent-offensive-linemen/8602a111-e003-412f-8b51-e16ce203fd39

This is the sort of signing that makes a team stronger. No, these aren't top notch guys. But, either adds valuable depth.

[K-Gun]

Does anyone else think Urbik can be a solid starting LG? And who knows anything about Tyronne Green?

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-2/Bills-host-pair-of-free-agent-offensive-linemen/8602a111-e003-412f-8b51-e16ce203fd39

The Bills have said more than once that their free agent shopping season will go all the way up to training camp. That was evident Tuesday when Buffalo played host to a pair of free agent offensive linemen.

San Diego free agent guard Tyronne Green and Pittsburgh free agent center/guard Doug Legursky both toured the facilities at One Bills Drive and met members of the offensive coaching staff Tuesday.

Green, 27, spent the first four seasons of his career with the Chargers after San Diego made him a fourth-round draft choice in 2009. He earned a starting job in 2012 at guard for San Diego making 13 starts last season. He’s made all 28 of his career starts in his last three seasons.

An unrestricted free agent this offseason, Green signed on May 13th with the New England Patriots, but was released just four days ago (May 31st).

[The Jokeman]

Does anyone else think Urbik can be a solid starting LG? And who knows anything about Tyronne Green?

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-2/Bills-host-pair-of-free-agent-offensive-linemen/8602a111-e003-412f-8b51-e16ce203fd39

The Bills have said more than once that their free agent shopping season will go all the way up to training camp. That was evident Tuesday when Buffalo played host to a pair of free agent offensive linemen.

San Diego free agent guard Tyronne Green and Pittsburgh free agent center/guard Doug Legursky both toured the facilities at One Bills Drive and met members of the offensive coaching staff Tuesday.

Green, 27, spent the first four seasons of his career with the Chargers after San Diego made him a fourth-round draft choice in 2009. He earned a starting job in 2012 at guard for San Diego making 13 starts last season. He’s made all 28 of his career starts in his last three seasons.

An unrestricted free agent this offseason, Green signed on May 13th with the New England Patriots, but was released just four days ago (May 31st).

Why would the Bills shift Urbik to LG when he's been manning RG and signed to a long term contract to do so? I don't mind adding Legursky and/or Green for depth but there are issue(s) with Green that scare me as the Chargers signed Chad Rinehart to replace Green and at a higher salary yet it could be debated that former Bills O-line coach liked him. Yet what scares me more is that note of the Patriots signing him and then cutting him less than three weeks later.

Here's a blurb from http://www.chargers.com/team/roster/Tyronne-Green/f3f80325-0a2c-4cf0-b57c-8703c0698580# that is interesting:


During his first three seasons, Green has seen time at both right and left guard, while also playing a role on special teams. During training camp and offseason practices, Green has also taken reps at center and tackle. The jockeying of positions though is something Green is used to. He is a converted defensive tackle who played both center and guard at Auburn.

And a predraft write up for anyone that cares: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/historical/518349

[NOT THE DUDE...]

I think this offers more options, and also helps give cheap insurance next year if wood leaves....

[OpIv37]

I have a bad feeling that we we looking at Legursky as a starter since we still haven't replaced Levitre or Rhinehardt. And that's why Pitt wins and we don't: their backup C becomes our starting G.

[better days]

I have a bad feeling that we we looking at Legursky as a starter since we still haven't replaced Levitre or Rhinehardt. And that's why Pitt wins and we don't: their backup C becomes our starting G.

IF the Bills do sign him, He will have to EARN a starters job. It is now June, what do you have to say aboout the WR position you were ranting about in April as being deficient with the loss of Nelson & Jones?

[K-Gun]

Why would the Bills shift Urbik to LG when he's been manning RG and signed to a long term contract to do so?

Because Urbik is our best OG, and the LG position is a bit more demanding in pass protect often having to double the other team's best pass rusher.

[OpIv37]

IF the Bills do sign him, He will have to EARN a starters job. It is now June, what do you have to say aboout the WR position you were ranting about in April as being deficient with the loss of Nelson & Jones?

Earn it over who?

And as far as WR, who do we have on the roster that has proven themselves to be better than Nelson or Jones? All we have are a bunch of rookies who haven't proven ****. Remember, James Hardy was supposed to fix our WR problem too.

[better days]

Earn it over who?

And as far as WR, who do we have on the roster that has proven themselves to be better than Nelson or Jones? All we have are a bunch of rookies who haven't proven ****. Remember, James Hardy was supposed to fix our WR problem too.

He will have to earn it over other players on an NFL roster. Do you expect whoever starts in place of Nelson & Jones to do worse than they did?

[jamze132]

Lets sign all of the O-lineman we can. Maybe we'll get lucky with one.

[Captain Obvious]

And as far as WR, who do we have on the roster that has proven themselves to be better than Nelson or Jones?

It's incredible you keep forgetting there is a WR on the team in Stevie Johnson who has 3 straight 1000 yard seasons he is a better receiver than David Nelson and Donald Jones

[NOT THE DUDE...]

since legursky is best at center, and obviously wood is the starter, along with brown being a good guard/backup center. my guess is brown is the front runner as of now, and they need a legit backup center for wood.

[OpIv37]

He will have to earn it over other players on an NFL roster. Do you expect whoever starts in place of Nelson & Jones to do worse than they did?

The only G's on our roster are the ones who weren't good enough to play over Levitre and Rhinehardt last year. Just because they're on an NFL roster doesn't mean they're legit competition for the starting role.

And I don't know if the new guys we got will do better or worse than Nelson and Jones, but doing worse is a very real possibility. They have no experience and will be in an O that's learning a new system with either a rookie QB or a very mediocre vet throwing them the ball behind an OL that lost both a starter and key depth.

[OpIv37]

It's incredible you keep forgetting there is a WR on the team in Stevie Johnson who has 3 straight 1000 yard seasons he is a better receiver than David Nelson and Donald Jones

Um, do you watch football?

My personal opinions of Stevie aside, offenses use MORE THAN ONE WR AT A TIME. The opposing D will just double Stevie and shut him down and make Graham and the rookies try to beat their other guys one on one. Teams can't succeed with just one good WR.

And, for the record, we weren't talking about Stevie because clearly the WR position as a whole hasn't been good enough even with Stevie. We were talking about whether the guys we added were significant replacements for the guys we lost.

[Captain Obvious]

The opposing D will just double Stevie and shut him down
.

3 straight seasons 1000 plus yards defenses arent exactly shutting him down

[NOT THE DUDE...]

The only G's on our roster are the ones who weren't good enough to play over Levitre and Rhinehardt last year. Just because they're on an NFL roster doesn't mean they're legit competition for the starting role.

And I don't know if the new guys we got will do better or worse than Nelson and Jones, but doing worse is a very real possibility. They have no experience and will be in an O that's learning a new system with either a rookie QB or a very mediocre vet throwing them the ball behind an OL that lost both a starter and key depth.
while I agree with your concern, I think it could be a little bit misguided. brown and young have both played ok along with demonstrating good power when in the game. I think brown started at center against Denver in 2011 and did really well, young did good last year, ( especially inside). guys sit for 2-3 years all the time and then move into the starting lineup. alex boone and kraig urbik both sat for 2 years and then started. howard ballard and john davis were the same too I believe... to be honest, I don't even see brown or young starting as a weakness, but a potential strength at guard. they have the kind of size and power you cant teach. but I understand being a little concerned.

[OpIv37]

3 straight seasons 1000 plus yards defenses arent exactly shutting him down

And how much production have our other WR's provided in that time span? Once again, this conversation is not about Stevie. It's about whether the guys we drafted are sufficient replacements for Jones and Nelson. You can talk all you want about Stevie's production- so far, it hasn't translated to wins.

[better days]

The only G's on our roster are the ones who weren't good enough to play over Levitre and Rhinehardt last year. Just because they're on an NFL roster doesn't mean they're legit competition for the starting role.

And I don't know if the new guys we got will do better or worse than Nelson and Jones, but doing worse is a very real possibility. They have no experience and will be in an O that's learning a new system with either a rookie QB or a very mediocre vet throwing them the ball behind an OL that lost both a starter and key depth.

So you concede the Bills now have WR's that can do BETTER than Nelson & Jones. Previously your posts said we were DOOMED at the WR position with the loss of 2 MEDIOCRE players at the WR position.

Just as we do not know how good the new WR's will be, we also don't know how good the new LG will be.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

And how much production have our other WR's provided in that time span? Once again, this conversation is not about Stevie. It's about whether the guys we drafted are sufficient replacements for Jones and Nelson. You can talk all you want about Stevie's production- so far, it hasn't translated to wins.

nelson was a glorified te... I think graham, woods, and goodwin are way more talented... imo they also seem smart and capable of making a very early impact

- - - Updated - - -

our roster is pretty solid, its all about ej3 stepping in and making plays baby!

[PTI]

We could use the help

[Captain Obvious]

So you concede the Bills now have WR's that can do BETTER than Nelson & Jones.


It's hilarious OPIV clearly asked you to name just ONE WR on the team who is better than Jones or Nelson and any bills fan who even knows a little about the team can come up with Stevie Johnsons name in 3 seconds.

[OpIv37]

So you concede the Bills now have WR's that can do BETTER than Nelson & Jones. Previously your posts said we were DOOMED at the WR position with the loss of 2 MEDIOCRE players at the WR position.

Just as we do not know how good the new WR's will be, we also don't know how good the new LG will be.

*sigh... Here we go again. This happens every single year. People assume the team will do well IF enough players do things they have never proven they can do. The Bills will do well...

IF we find a G who can play as well as Levitre AND
IF the rookie WR's outplay the ones we lost AND
IF the rookie QB or mediocre vet can outplay Fitz AND
IF the players can learn the new O fast enough AND
IF the players can learn the new D quickly AND
IF the new D takes better advantage of the DL talent AND
IF Alonso and Lawson can solidify the OL position AND
IF Aaron Williams doesn't completely suck in the new D.

I'm sure a few of those things will happen. I highly doubt enough of them will happen to make this a winning season. It literally means everything has to go right, and that NEVER happens for Buffalo sports, save for an hour and a half during the Comeback Game.

[OpIv37]

It's hilarious OPIV clearly asked you to name just ONE WR on the team who is better than Jones or Nelson and any bills fan who even knows a little about the team can come up with Stevie Johnsons name in 3 seconds.

Are you daft? It's about IMPROVING on Nelson and Jones. We had Stevie LAST YEAR with Nelson and Jones. Players who are already here aren't improvements because WE ALREADY HAVE THEM.

[Lexwhat]

And that's why Pitt wins and we don't: their backup C becomes our starting G.

You do realize that the Steelers/Tomlin once took our reject backup LT Jonathan Scott and made him their starter? Even to this day, they haven't fixed their LT position, and that was true even before Mike Adams got stabbed. Of course, with Big Ben, it's kind of okay, because he's probably the best QB in the league when it comes to making plays outside of the pocket.

Not that I'm comparing our front office with Pittsburgh's, but I think the particular point you made in this case is irrelevant. Pittsburgh doesn't "win" because of anything to do with their Offensive Line.

I am not too happy about our Guard position either (I also think we could use another pure LT), but we have bigger concerns at TE, LB, 2nd CB, and Byrd's contract. Although no Guard we sign will match Levitre's production, serviceable ones can be found.

[tatersalad]

I have a bad feeling that we we looking at Legursky as a starter since we still haven't replaced Levitre or Rhinehardt. And that's why Pitt wins and we don't: their backup C becomes our starting G.


Didn't Pittsburgh sign our trash Johnathan Scott and have him starting at left tackle so by your reasoning Pitts worse than us?

[Homegrown]

*sigh... Here we go again. This happens every single year. People assume the team will do well IF enough players do things they have never proven they can do. The Bills will do well...

IF we find a G who can play as well as Levitre AND
IF the rookie WR's outplay the ones we lost AND
IF the rookie QB or mediocre vet can outplay Fitz AND
IF the players can learn the new O fast enough AND
IF the players can learn the new D quickly AND
IF the new D takes better advantage of the DL talent AND
IF Alonso and Lawson can solidify the OL position AND
IF Aaron Williams doesn't completely suck in the new D.

I'm sure a few of those things will happen. I highly doubt enough of them will happen to make this a winning season. It literally means everything has to go right, and that NEVER happens for Buffalo sports, save for an hour and a half during the Comeback Game.

Theres only one if .... IF the Bills have a elite/franchise QB ...

Brady/Rogers/etc would win 10 a games a year in the NFL QBing the "Sisters of the Poor" ...

[X-Era]

*sigh... Here we go again. This happens every single year. People assume the team will do well IF enough players do things they have never proven they can do. The Bills will do well...

IF we find a G who can play as well as Levitre AND
IF the rookie WR's outplay the ones we lost AND
IF the rookie QB or mediocre vet can outplay Fitz AND
IF the players can learn the new O fast enough AND
IF the players can learn the new D quickly AND
IF the new D takes better advantage of the DL talent AND
IF Alonso and Lawson can solidify the OL position AND
IF Aaron Williams doesn't completely suck in the new D.

I'm sure a few of those things will happen. I highly doubt enough of them will happen to make this a winning season. It literally means everything has to go right, and that NEVER happens for Buffalo sports, save for an hour and a half during the Comeback Game.

I see it more like this:

IF we find a G who can play as well as Levitre OR
IF the rookie WR's outplay the ones we lost AND
IF the rookie QB or mediocre vet can outplay Fitz AND
IF the players can learn the new O fast enough OR
IF the players can learn the new D quickly AND
IF the new D takes better advantage of the DL talent OR
IF Alonso and Lawson can solidify the LB position

But overall I do agree that with all new coaches, schemes, losing Levitre, new QB's, and mostly new WR's there is too much that's unknown/unproven to expect many wins.

I obviously hope that happens and think it very well could, but there's too many question marks to say it will.

[justasportsfan]

what I'm getting from this thread is that it's good if we sign these players and it's bad if we sign these players too.

:crazy:

[X-Era]

what I'm getting from this thread is that it's good if we sign these players and it's bad if we sign these players too.

:crazy:
I think it's good if we sign these players or even one of these guys. Period.

Adding vet experience is always good especially since were so raw at LG.

[better days]

I see it more like this:

IF we find a G who can play as well as Levitre OR
IF the rookie WR's outplay the ones we lost AND
IF the rookie QB or mediocre vet can outplay Fitz AND
IF the players can learn the new O fast enough OR
IF the players can learn the new D quickly AND
IF the new D takes better advantage of the DL talent OR
IF Alonso and Lawson can solidify the LB position

But overall I do agree that with all new coaches, schemes, losing Levitre, new QB's, and mostly new WR's there is too much that's unknown/unproven to expect many wins.

I obviously hope that happens and think it very well could, but there's too many question marks to say it will.

I agree there are too many questions to proclaim the Bills will go to the Super Bowl or even make the playoffs, but I don't think there are so many questions that at least 6 wins should be EXPECTED.

[Jan Reimers]

what I'm getting from this thread is that it's good if we sign these players and it's bad if we sign these players too.

:crazy:
Welcome to the Billszone, justa. We lost a pair of guards to free agency, but we can't be satisfied with anyone less than an All-Pro.

[OpIv37]

You do realize that the Steelers/Tomlin once took our reject backup LT Jonathan Scott and made him their starter? Even to this day, they haven't fixed their LT position, and that was true even before Mike Adams got stabbed. Of course, with Big Ben, it's kind of okay, because he's probably the best QB in the league when it comes to making plays outside of the pocket.

Not that I'm comparing our front office with Pittsburgh's, but I think the particular point you made in this case is irrelevant. Pittsburgh doesn't "win" because of anything to do with their Offensive Line.

I am not too happy about our Guard position either (I also think we could use another pure LT), but we have bigger concerns at TE, LB, 2nd CB, and Byrd's contract. Although no Guard we sign will match Levitre's production, serviceable ones can be found.

The point is that Pitt finds legit starters and we let starters walk and try to make other team's back ups into starters. Maybe they screwed up LT and had to resort to Scott, but for them that is the exception. For us, it's the rule,

[OpIv37]

Welcome to the Billszone, justa. We lost a pair of guards to free agency, but we can't be satisfied with anyone less than an All-Pro.

Why should we be? We lost a guy who had All Pro talent.

[justasportsfan]

I think it's good if we sign these players or even one of these guys. Period.

Adding vet experience is always good especially since were so raw at LG.not according to OP.

Didn't we find Urbik in someone elses garbage?

Welcome to the Billszone, justa. We lost a pair of guards to free agency, but we can't be satisfied with anyone less than an All-Pro.

Bills are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

[justasportsfan]

Why should we be? We lost a guy who had All Pro talent.

I can understand losing Levitre, yet you worry about losing Nelson and Jones who weren't all pro's? Don't care if we replaced them with unproven rookies, to me replacing Jones is like replacing Jeff Posey. Nelson, anyone would be better than him as far as last year is concerned because he was in IR anyways.

[better days]

Why should we be? We lost a guy who had All Pro talent.

The Bills lost ONE QUALITY Starter, ONE. Other teams like the Ravens & Jets lost MUCH more than that.

In fact is there ANY team in the NFL that did not lose at least ONE quality starter?

[X-Era]

The point is that Pitt finds legit starters and we let starters walk and try to make other team's back ups into starters. Maybe they screwed up LT and had to resort to Scott, but for them that is the exception. For us, it's the rule,
They let Kendall Simmons walk a few years back. Signed our cast-off to play LT. RT is still very much an issue and it's not like either G is all-pro yet (DeCastro isn't there yet).

Pitt's line is not a good argument. It may be the weakest part of their whole team and I fail to see where they have re-signed their own top notch rookies.

They've invested almost as much as we have in draft picks. Adams, DeCastro, and Pouncey... Wood, Levitre, and Glenn. You can add in Hairston if you choose too. They spent 2 1st and 2 2nd's and we've spent a 1st and 2 2nds and a 4th. But none of their guys have become free agents yet.

I don't think you'd ever see Pitt dropping top coin on a G and recent history doesn't support that notion either.

[Captain Obvious]

Why should we be? We lost a guy who had All Pro talent.

Andy Levitire never made the All Pro team

[cookie G]

Does anyone else think Urbik can be a solid starting LG? And who knows anything about Tyronne Green?



Nope. RG, LG, it doesn't matter. Its more of putting him in a position where he's expected to take on a DT 1 on 1 for most of the game. He's rarely had to do that in the past. Without Levitre there, and Wood having to help out the other bargain bin guard, Urbik's going to have to do it with a lot less help than he's had in the past.



Anyways...

Legursky is a guy I was hoping for the Bills to draft in the later rounds. Small school, 4 year starter, moved better than people thought. 2 time all conference at Marshall.

He's the guy who beat out Urbik for a roster spot on the Steelers in 2010. I think it was Tomlin who said something to the effect of "you can't seem to get rid of him, he keeps coming back".

On the other hand, he's never really proven to be more than a back up/fill in. He's short, no more than 6'1" on a good day and according to some, that's hurt him. In any event, PFF had him graded as the Steelers' worst O lineman last year. I think Tomlin finally saw a way to get rid of him.

[cookie G]

The Bills lost ONE QUALITY Starter, ONE. Other teams like the Ravens & Jets lost MUCH more than that.

In fact is there ANY team in the NFL that did not lose at least ONE quality starter?

The Ravens only lost Matt Birk last year from their OL. They drafted Gino Gradkowski the year before in the beginning of the 4th as his eventual replacement. They also traded for AQ Shipley, who filled in surprisingly well for the Colts last year.

Let's not compare Ozzie Newsome with how most Bills fans think an OL should be built. There isn't an NFL exec. that places more emphasis on keeping the quality of his OL high, as he's proven over the past decade. And few, if any, do it more efficiently, because he doesn't let his line get to rebuilding stage before making changes. Belichick probably comes in 2nd in terms of how he values his OL.

He definitely does not subscribe to the moronic "pfft, you can get OL anywhere" mantra that many Bills' fans like to scream.

First, he rarely goes more than a year without using a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd round pick on the OL. He's used 8 picks from rounds 1-3 on OL since 2007. By contrast, the Bills have used a single 2nd round pick in their past 4 drafts. I couldn't imagine him dumping both of his OT's, and then waiting 3 years to draft his replacement.

And these picks were taken at a time when their line was considered to be "built" rather than in a rebuilding phase. There's a reason their line has consistently been towards the top of the NFL for the past decade.

Because he does spend so much in drafting the OL, he can afford to lose a player to FA when their rookie contract is up. He didn't want to pay Ben Grubbs AND Marshall Yanda go, so he drafted Osemele in the 2nd. If a guy leaves, he usually has someone to fill in. Grubbs left, Osemele moves in.

Even despite using a large number of high picks, he'll use FA'cy when needed. When Jason Brown left, he signed Birk.
When it was becoming clear that Michael Oher was a far better RT than LT, he signed McKinnie.

I'm sure he rummages through other team's trash bins as much as other GM's, he just doesn't use it as Plan A. More importantly, he doesn't use it as his only plan.

He doesn't rebuild his OL, he replenishes as needed.

He and Buddy, (as well as prior Bills) regimes, are pretty much polar opposites in how they treat their O lines.

[whkfc]

Bills have signed Legursky.

[SpikedLemonade]

Remember, James Hardy was supposed to fix our WR problem too.

That was the year that all we needed was a tall WR in the red zone.

This year the thinking is all we need is fast WRs.

Separating and catching the ball is not important.

[SpikedLemonade]

....I don't think there are so many questions that at least 6 wins should be EXPECTED.

Keep a box of tissues close to you when the regular season starts.

[OpIv37]

Andy Levitire never made the All Pro team

I didn't say he did. I said he has the TALENT to be an All Pro.

The Pro Bowl selection is a joke. People vote for the guy on their team or the biggest name. Levitre played a low-profile position in a low-profile city. No one outside of Buffalo knew about him, with the possible exception of fans of our div opponents who had to watch him twice a year. If people a) knew football and b) actually watched him, he would have been an All Pro.

[OpIv37]

The Bills lost ONE QUALITY Starter, ONE. Other teams like the Ravens & Jets lost MUCH more than that.

In fact is there ANY team in the NFL that did not lose at least ONE quality starter?

And how many of those teams that lost a quality starter ADDED one or more quality starters? How many were far better than the Bills to begin with? Yeah, the Ravens lost a bunch of starters and I've been saying they're in for a disappointing season. And the Jets are the biggest joke in the NFL right now- even worse than us. But our goal isn't just to be better than the Jets.

We had a huge talent gap between us and most of the league. That's why we drafted 8th. We lost talent in Levitre. Who did we sign that was a clear upgrade? Lawson, and, um, Lawson. Who did we sign that was equal or even a capable starter on the OL? Legursky MAYBE, and that just happened today. All we did was lose a bunch of guys who weren't great- but were experienced starters- and replace them with a bunch of unproven, untested rookies. Maybe they'll be good players and maybe they won't, but even if they are, most likely they won't be better than the experienced starters from day 1. That's why this season is going to be an epic disaster.

[SpikedLemonade]

That's why this season is going to be an epic disaster.

"But...but...but...Marrone turned around Syracuse in 3 years into a 8-5 powerhouse. The NFL is just the same...."

[OpIv37]

I can understand losing Levitre, yet you worry about losing Nelson and Jones who weren't all pro's? Don't care if we replaced them with unproven rookies, to me replacing Jones is like replacing Jeff Posey. Nelson, anyone would be better than him as far as last year is concerned because he was in IR anyways.

I don't worry about losing Nelson and Jones. I worry about not upgrading the WR position. We replaced mediocrity with question marks. Maybe, someday, we'll replace mediocrity with you know, proven talent. And you know what? Maybe I could accept replacing the mediocrity at WR with rookies IF we spent resources to upgrade one of the other deficient positions, but we didn't. The only possible talent upgrade to this team may be the rookies. That's not good enough. MAYBE it'll be good enough in a couple of years, IF most of the rookies pan out. But as far as 2013 goes, the talent just isn't there.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

I don't worry about losing Nelson and Jones. I worry about not upgrading the WR position. We replaced mediocrity with question marks. M
aybe, someday, we'll replace mediocrity with you know, proven talent. And you know what? Maybe I could accept replacing the mediocrity at WR with rookies IF we spent resources to upgrade one of the other deficient positions, but we didn't. The only possible talent upgrade to this team may be the rookies. That's not good enough. MAYBE it'll be good enough in a couple of years, IF most of the rookies pan out. But as far as 2013 goes, the talent just isn't there.

wrong question, we need better qb play

[OpIv37]

wrong question, we need better qb play
that's only ONE of the things we need. Saying it's the only thing we need is very myopic and it diminishes just how bad the rest of this team is.

[better days]

Keep a box of tissues close to you when the regular season starts.

I will NOT be SAD if they don't win 6 games, I will be MAD. Tissues not needed. I will be on this board EVERY DAY calling for the firing of Marrone if the Bills don't win at least 6 games, you may need the tissues.

[OpIv37]

I will NOT be SAD if they don't win 6 games, I will be MAD. Tissues not needed. I will be on this board EVERY DAY calling for the firing of Marrone if the Bills don't win at least 6 games, you may need the tissues.

You can't be serious. Complete lack of talent, rookies, new systems on both sides of the ball.... I'll the most critical person when it comes to this team, but even I have to say that's unrealistic. I won't be calling for Marrone's head unless he's COMPLETELY incompetent. Even if he only wins one game but is competitive in most of the losses, I won't be calling for his head. I'll be frustrated as hell, but no one can make chicken salad from chicken ****.

[better days]

You can't be serious. Complete lack of talent, rookies, new systems on both sides of the ball.... I'll the most critical person when it comes to this team, but even I have to say that's unrealistic. I won't be calling for Marrone's head unless he's COMPLETELY incompetent. Even if he only wins one game but is competitive in most of the losses, I won't be calling for his head. I'll be frustrated as hell, but no one can make chicken salad from chicken ****.

If Marrone can not win 6 games next year, then there is no question that he is incompetent.

Anyone that thinks the Bills will win 6 or fewer games needs to look at the OTA highlights. ALL the QBs are throwing the ball MUCH better than we have seen in a LONG time & they all seem to make it look effortless while doing so.

With an AGRESSIVE defense I have no doubt this team wins more than 6 games unless there are a HUGE # of injuries, but even if there are injuries, I EXPECT at least 6 WINS or I will RANT like no other than you Op until the Bills fire Marrone.

[better days]

And how many of those teams that lost a quality starter ADDED one or more quality starters? How many were far better than the Bills to begin with? Yeah, the Ravens lost a bunch of starters and I've been saying they're in for a disappointing season. And the Jets are the biggest joke in the NFL right now- even worse than us. But our goal isn't just to be better than the Jets.

We had a huge talent gap between us and most of the league. That's why we drafted 8th. We lost talent in Levitre. Who did we sign that was a clear upgrade? Lawson, and, um, Lawson. Who did we sign that was equal or even a capable starter on the OL? Legursky MAYBE, and that just happened today. All we did was lose a bunch of guys who weren't great- but were experienced starters- and replace them with a bunch of unproven, untested rookies. Maybe they'll be good players and maybe they won't, but even if they are, most likely they won't be better than the experienced starters from day 1. That's why this season is going to be an epic disaster.

You just have to look at the OTA highlights or film from last year to see that Kolb is a clear upgrade over Fitz.............if he can stay healthy. If he can't stay healthy, then either TJAX or EJ would be a clear upgrade over Fitz, again look at the OTA highlights & you will see all three of these guys throw the ball MUCH better than Fitz.

On defense, Pettine has really talked up Kiko so I am willing to bet he is a HUGE upgrade over what we had last year.

Like I said before the Bills lost ONE QUALITY starter....Levitre, that is ALL. So we did NOT lose a bunch of guys. Aside from Levitre, the Bills lost some scrubs that you would be COMPLAINING about had we kept them.

[OpIv37]

If Marrone can not win 6 games next year, then there is no question that he is incompetent.

Anyone that thinks the Bills will win 6 or fewer games needs to look at the OTA highlights. ALL the QBs are throwing the ball MUCH better than we have seen in a LONG time & they all seem to make it look effortless while doing so.

With an AGRESSIVE defense I have no doubt this team wins more than 6 games unless there are a HUGE # of injuries, but even if there are injuries, I EXPECT at least 6 WINS or I will RANT like no other than you Op until the Bills fire Marrone.

Lmao- aggression without talent gets you nowhere. Throwing the ball well in shorts against our **** D means nothing.

[OpIv37]

You just have to look at the OTA highlights or film from last year to see that Kolb is a clear upgrade over Fitz.............if he can stay healthy. If he can't stay healthy, then either TJAX or EJ would be a clear upgrade over Fitz, again look at the OTA highlights & you will see all three of these guys throw the ball MUCH better than Fitz.

On defense, Pettine has really talked up Kiko so I am willing to bet he is a HUGE upgrade over what we had last year.

Like I said before the Bills lost ONE QUALITY starter....Levitre, that is ALL. So we did NOT lose a bunch of guys. Aside from Levitre, the Bills lost some scrubs that you would be COMPLAINING about had we kept them.
There are several fallacies in your argument. The first is that any QB on the roster is an upgrade over Fitz. Manuel is a complete unknown. Kolb and Jackson are not much better, if at all.

The second is the "quality starter" fallacy. We lost a bunch of starters and while most weren't very good, there is no evidence whatsoever that anyone we added is any better. It's all just hope and speculation.

Finally, even if you are correct in that we lost only one "quality" starter, we were a 6-10 team that drafted 8. One quality starter gone, and we are drafting top 5. It doesn't take much to make a **** team ****tier.

[mayotm]

Lmao- aggression without talent gets you nowhere. Throwing the ball well in shorts against our **** D means nothing.
The Jets played pretty good defense last year. With the injuries they had, they certainly didn't have a ton of talent. Agree with you that QB's looking good in shorts is meaningless.

[better days]

Lmao- aggression without talent gets you nowhere. Throwing the ball well in shorts against our **** D means nothing.

BS. The Bills do have talent, it was WASTED last year by Wanny on defense. On offense, the Bills have upgraded the QB position, the most important position in football as well as adding WR's that should be a HUGE upgrade over Nelson & Jones.

And as far as throwing against the defense this year in shorts, that defense is MUCH BETTER due to the scheme than last year & ALL the QB's are throwing the ball MUCH better than Fitz did against the Bills VANILLA defense in shorts in OTA's last year.

[BillsFever21]

Look at how they are throwing the ball in OTA? LOL

We're definitely making the playoffs or maybe even the SB now. We're completing passes in 7 on 7 OTA's where the guys are wearing shorts and there isn't any contact. Many of the times there isn't even a defender on them and if there is there isn't any pass rushers in their face and the plays are scripted. What team doesn't look good in OTA's?

[better days]

There are several fallacies in your argument. The first is that any QB on the roster is an upgrade over Fitz. Manuel is a complete unknown. Kolb and Jackson are not much better, if at all.

The second is the "quality starter" fallacy. We lost a bunch of starters and while most weren't very good, there is no evidence whatsoever that anyone we added is any better. It's all just hope and speculation.

Finally, even if you are correct in that we lost only one "quality" starter, we were a 6-10 team that drafted 8. One quality starter gone, and we are drafting top 5. It doesn't take much to make a **** team ****tier.

There are no fallacies in my argument. Like I said if you look at the OTA highlights of the QBs this year & compare them to the OTA's last year, it should be clear to EVERYONE that the QB's this year can throw the ball MUCH better than Fitz.

And by drafting at #8, the Bills ADDED QUALITY draft picks this offseason. There is no reason we should not expect this years roster to be BETTER than last years roster.

And it doesn't take much to make a mediocre team GOOD, GOOD Coaching & schemes will do that for a team.

[better days]

Look at how they are throwing the ball in OTA? LOL

We're definitely making the playoffs or maybe even the SB now. We're completing passes in 7 on 7 OTA's where the guys are wearing shorts and there isn't any contact. Many of the times there isn't even a defender on them and if there is there isn't any pass rushers in their face and the plays are scripted. What team doesn't look good in OTA's?

The Jets for one are a team that has not looked good in OTA's Like I said, Compare the OTA's from last year to the OTA's this year. It is a WORLD of difference. But you guys don't even watch the GAMES let alone practice.

[BillsFever21]

The Jets for one are a team that has not looked good in OTA's Like I said, Compare the OTA's from last year to the OTA's this year. It is a WORLD of difference. But you guys don't even watch the GAMES let alone practice.

You must really are a card lol. Nah we never watch any of the games. I guess them 100 something games I've seen live I must've just been at the food stand eating chicken wings instead of watching the game. Damn I really wasted thousands of dollars for nothing. Same thing on every Sunday when I watch them on TV.

[OpIv37]

There are no fallacies in my argument. Like I said if you look at the OTA highlights of the QBs this year & compare them to the OTA's last year, it should be clear to EVERYONE that the QB's this year can throw the ball MUCH better than Fitz.

And by drafting at #8, the Bills ADDED QUALITY draft picks this offseason. There is no reason we should not expect this years roster to be BETTER than last years roster.

And it doesn't take much to make a mediocre team GOOD, GOOD Coaching & schemes will do that for a team.
The Bills drafted at 8? I could have sworn they traded down.....

And actually, it takes a LOT to make a mediocre team good. And there's no prof whatsoever that the Bills will have good coaching or schemes... Just hope and speculation. But whatever helps you keep the delusion alive, right?

[better days]

The Bills drafted at 8? I could have sworn they traded down.....

And actually, it takes a LOT to make a mediocre team good. And there's no prof whatsoever that the Bills will have good coaching or schemes... Just hope and speculation. But whatever helps you keep the delusion alive, right?

Yes they traded down. With the 8th pick, they acquired an additional 2nd rnd pick which they would not have gotten if not at #8. They used that pick on Kiko who Pettine has RAVED about. They also drafted about there in every other rnd, not at the end of the rnd.

The draft does NOT stop after the 1st rnd.

A GOOD QB & GOOD Coaching will make a mediocre team GOOD. And I agree, we don't yet know how good Marrone will be as a Coach. If he can't win 6 games, we will know he is NOT good & I will want him fired.

[better days]

You must really are a card lol. Nah we never watch any of the games. I guess them 100 something games I've seen live I must've just been at the food stand eating chicken wings instead of watching the game. Damn I really wasted thousands of dollars for nothing. Same thing on every Sunday when I watch them on TV.

Well, from the quality of your posts, you must have spent a lot of time at the concession stands & in the bathroom instead of watching the games.

If you did watch the games & know anything at all about football, you should know how bad Fitz was last year & how bad Wanny Coached the defense, NEVER calling for a BLITZ even when it was 3rd & LONG.

The Bills had the lowest blitz percentage in the entire NFL last year.

[justasportsfan]

I don't worry about losing Nelson and Jones. I worry about not upgrading the WR position.

they were both rookie free agents. While it remains to be seen what Graham ,Woods, Goodwin, Rogers , Kaufman can do, I'm not worried about any one of them being being upgrades over Nelson and Jones. A couple of them should easily do better than those mediocre wr you are whining about. Technically, Nelson was an absentee last year so anyone is an upgrade. Jones? Meh.

[OpIv37]

they were both rookie free agents. While it remains to be seen what Graham ,Woods, Goodwin, Rogers , Kaufman can do, I'm not worried about any one of them being being upgrades over Nelson and Jones. A couple of them should easily do better than those mediocre wr you are whining about. Technically, Nelson was an absentee last year so anyone is an upgrade. Jones? Meh.

Talent-wise, they are probably upgrades- I won't say definitely until I actually see them play on an NFL field. Watching highlight videos on Youtube doesn't tell you jack ****. But you can't account for that experience factor. Sure, assuming they have the talent, they'll eventually gain the experience. So in a year or two they should be pretty good. But it doesn't bode well for this year, especially given that the QB will be learning the new system as well. I could see this O looking like one of those old electric football games for the first 6 games (give or take) while everyone figures it out.

[OpIv37]

Yes they traded down. With the 8th pick, they acquired an additional 2nd rnd pick which they would not have gotten if not at #8. They used that pick on Kiko who Pettine has RAVED about. They also drafted about there in every other rnd, not at the end of the rnd.

The draft does NOT stop after the 1st rnd.

A GOOD QB & GOOD Coaching will make a mediocre team GOOD. And I agree, we don't yet know how good Marrone will be as a Coach. If he can't win 6 games, we will know he is NOT good & I will want him fired.

Of course Pettine is going to rave about him. What's he going to say? "Our 2nd round draft pick that we took to help our ****ty LB's is just as ****ty. Wish we could have that pick back because now we're stuck with this jackass." Please.

And no, the draft does not stop after the first round- I never said it did. I simply pointed out that you were wrong when you said we drafted at 8. But for that matter, the talent drops significantly after the first round, and given the complete lack of talent on this roster, we need to add as much talent as we possibly can.

And not winning 6 games this season doesn't necessarily mean Marrone is a bad coach. We lost a whole bunch of starters from last year. Most of the replacements are rookies so we have no idea if they're any good- and even if they are, there will likely be a learning curve. We have new systems on both sides of the ball so there is a learning curve for the vets as well. And we still lack talent at a few key positions- notably G, TE, LB, and CB (and S if Byrd holds out). 6 games is a completely unrealistic benchmark for judging Marrone. 2013 is essentially training camp for 2014. I'd LOVE to see wins, but I'm not expecting it. I'm expecting to see improvement over the course of the season as the rookies learn and as the team becomes more comfortable in the system.

[justasportsfan]

Talent-wise, they are probably upgrades- I won't say definitely until I actually see them play on an NFL field. Watching highlight videos on Youtube doesn't tell you jack ****. But you can't account for that experience factor. Sure, assuming they have the talent, they'll eventually gain the experience. So in a year or two they should be pretty good. But it doesn't bode well for this year, especially given that the QB will be learning the new system as well. I could see this O looking like one of those old electric football games for the first 6 games (give or take) while everyone figures it out.

wait wait. You're the one who talks about information on tape. Now that doesn't apply? You're arguing with yourself again.

While highlights mean nothing, once again, both Nelson and Jones were undrafted. In a year or two? You're talking as if both wr's were constant 1000 yard receivers .

[OpIv37]

wait wait. You're the one who talks about information on tape. Now that doesn't apply? You're arguing with yourself again.

While highlights mean nothing, once again, both Nelson and Jones were undrafted. In a year or two? You're talking as if both wr's were constant 1000 yard receivers .

by "information on tape," I mean FULL NFL games including the All 22 footage. I don't mean college highlight reels. They are two entirely different things.

And yes, I'm well aware of the fact that Nelson and Jones were both undrafted. But James Hardy was drafted in the 2nd round. And remember the other two WR's we wanted that year who the Redskins drafted- Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly? They were both 2nd rounders too, and as average as Jones and Nelson are, none of those 3 2nd round draft picks came anywhere close to being as good as them. That's 3 examples from ONE ROUND of ONE DRAFT. Simply being drafted doesn't make someone automatically better.

[better days]

Of course Pettine is going to rave about him. What's he going to say? "Our 2nd round draft pick that we took to help our ****ty LB's is just as ****ty. Wish we could have that pick back because now we're stuck with this jackass." Please.

And no, the draft does not stop after the first round- I never said it did. I simply pointed out that you were wrong when you said we drafted at 8. But for that matter, the talent drops significantly after the first round, and given the complete lack of talent on this roster, we need to add as much talent as we possibly can.

And not winning 6 games this season doesn't necessarily mean Marrone is a bad coach. We lost a whole bunch of starters from last year. Most of the replacements are rookies so we have no idea if they're any good- and even if they are, there will likely be a learning curve. We have new systems on both sides of the ball so there is a learning curve for the vets as well. And we still lack talent at a few key positions- notably G, TE, LB, and CB (and S if Byrd holds out). 6 games is a completely unrealistic benchmark for judging Marrone. 2013 is essentially training camp for 2014. I'd LOVE to see wins, but I'm not expecting it. I'm expecting to see improvement over the course of the season as the rookies learn and as the team becomes more comfortable in the system.

Pettine did not have to say ANYTHING good or bad about Kiko. He CHOSE to praise him.

If the Bills don't win 6 games, then Marrone is a bad HC period. We DID NOT lose a bunch of starters from last year. That is a TOTAL FALLACY in your argument. Who did we lose? Jones? Nelson? PLEASE.
Like I said, had the Bills kept any of the scrubs they got rid of you would have complained the Bills were willing to settle for mediocrity rather than try to upgrade the team.
Who aside from Levitre are the Bills going to miss?

And as you said the Vets are learning a new system as well, so there is no reason to keep a mediocre Vet over a promising Rookie.

I am not asking Marrone to win the Super Bowl this year, but 6 games is an ABSOLUTE MINIMUM he needs to win even in a training camp of a season. If he can not do that, he is a TERRIBLE Coach.

[justasportsfan]

by "information on tape," I mean FULL NFL games including the All 22 footage. I don't mean college highlight reels. They are two entirely different things. so why bring up the highlight reel? Do you think teams use highlight reels when drafting players?


And yes, I'm well aware of the fact that Nelson and Jones were both undrafted. But James Hardy was drafted in the 2nd round. And remember the other two WR's we wanted that year who the Redskins drafted- Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly? They were both 2nd rounders too, and as average as Jones and Nelson are, none of those 3 2nd round draft picks came anywhere close to being as good as them. That's 3 examples from ONE ROUND of ONE DRAFT. Simply being drafted doesn't make someone automatically better. who said it makes them automatically better? I didn't but it doesn't mean either that anyone drafted it automatically bust and not be able to replace Donald freaking Jones.

[OpIv37]

Pettine did not have to say ANYTHING good or bad about Kiko. He CHOSE to praise him.

If the Bills don't win 6 games, then Marrone is a bad HC period. We DID NOT lose a bunch of starters from last year. That is a TOTAL FALLACY in your argument. Who did we lose? Jones? Nelson? PLEASE.
Like I said, had the Bills kept any of the scrubs they got rid of you would have complained the Bills were willing to settle for mediocrity rather than try to upgrade the team.
Who aside from Levitre are the Bills going to miss?

And as you said the Vets are learning a new system as well, so there is no reason to keep a mediocre Vet over a promising Rookie.

I am not asking Marrone to win the Super Bowl this year, but 6 games is an ABSOLUTE MINIMUM he needs to win even in a training camp of a season. If he can not do that, he is a TERRIBLE Coach.

Starters from last year that we lost: Fitzpatrick, Nelson, Jones, Levitre, Barnett, Wilson. That's 6 out of 22. And Chandler may not be be back from injury.

And yes, Levitre is the only one of those guys who was good, but "good" and "not be missed" are two different things because ditching mediocre players is only beneficial IF you replace them with something equal or better. All we have to replace them is a bunch of unproven rookies.

And it's complete BS to make an argument based on your assumption of how I would have reacted to a situation that never occurred. But here's the thing: we need to UPGRADE the WR position. If we kept Jones and Nelson, we wouldn't have upgraded the WR position. As it stands, all we have are a bunch of question marks. So, yes, I would have *****ed if we didn't do anything, but it's not about me or my reaction. It's about upgrading the position. For the record, I'm not *****ing about only using the draft to upgrade the WR position. It's not my favorite choice, but it is what it is. I'm simply pointing out the reality that a) we don't know if these guys will be any good and b) even if they are good, there will likely be a learning curve so they won't be good right away. It's unrealistic to expect these rookies to step in and IMMEDIATELY be as good as Jones and Nelson. After half a season? Maybe. After a full season? Probably. But right away? No. And that's why your 6 game benchmark is ridiculous- well, it's one of the reasons why.

[better days]

by "information on tape," I mean FULL NFL games including the All 22 footage. I don't mean college highlight reels. They are two entirely different things.

And yes, I'm well aware of the fact that Nelson and Jones were both undrafted. But James Hardy was drafted in the 2nd round. And remember the other two WR's we wanted that year who the Redskins drafted- Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly? They were both 2nd rounders too, and as average as Jones and Nelson are, none of those 3 2nd round draft picks came anywhere close to being as good as them. That's 3 examples from ONE ROUND of ONE DRAFT. Simply being drafted doesn't make someone automatically better.

Well, undrafted Rogers may well prove to be MUCH BETTER than both Jones & Nelson. The ONLY reason Jones started last year is the Bills were DESPERATE at WR just as the Pats* are this year. And I would say Jones was BELOW AVERAGE, not average.
Nelson did not play last year due to injury & he may never play as well as he had in the past again due to that injury.

[OpIv37]

so why bring up the highlight reel? Do you think teams use highlight reels when drafting players?

who said it makes them automatically better? I didn't but it doesn't mean either that anyone drafted it automatically bust and not be able to replace Donald freaking Jones.

I brought up the highlight reels from a personal standpoint- I didn't watch any of the WR's we drafted play full games in college so I don't have a clue as to how good they are. I could go watch highlight videos on YouTube- as some people here are fond of doing- but watching only a player's best plays wouldn't tell me much. So, I have to reserve judgment- good or bad- until I actually see these guys play games.

I'm sure the team used some combination of full game video and/or live scouting before drafting any of these guys.

[better days]

Starters from last year that we lost: Fitzpatrick, Nelson, Jones, Levitre, Barnett, Wilson. That's 6 out of 22. And Chandler may not be be back from injury.

And yes, Levitre is the only one of those guys who was good, but "good" and "not be missed" are two different things because ditching mediocre players is only beneficial IF you replace them with something equal or better. All we have to replace them is a bunch of unproven rookies.

And it's complete BS to make an argument based on your assumption of how I would have reacted to a situation that never occurred. But here's the thing: we need to UPGRADE the WR position. If we kept Jones and Nelson, we wouldn't have upgraded the WR position. As it stands, all we have are a bunch of question marks. So, yes, I would have *****ed if we didn't do anything, but it's not about me or my reaction. It's about upgrading the position. For the record, I'm not *****ing about only using the draft to upgrade the WR position. It's not my favorite choice, but it is what it is. I'm simply pointing out the reality that a) we don't know if these guys will be any good and b) even if they are good, there will likely be a learning curve so they won't be good right away. It's unrealistic to expect these rookies to step in and IMMEDIATELY be as good as Jones and Nelson. After half a season? Maybe. After a full season? Probably. But right away? No. And that's why your 6 game benchmark is ridiculous- well, it's one of the reasons why.

Well, who of those players aside from Levitre will the Bills miss? Fitz? Nelson- he didn't even play last year. Jones? Barnett? Wilson who cost the Bills 2 games by failing to hold on to 2 ints?

Yes there will be a learning curve but as you pointed out the Vets would have a learning curve as well.

IMMEDIATELY the new WR's should be at least as good as Jones & Nelson who did not even play last year. by the 2nd half of the season, the Rookies should be BETTER than Jones & Nelson.

In a SIXTEEN game season, 6 WINS is TERRIBLE. Even for a new HC.

[OpIv37]

Well, who of those players aside from Levitre will the Bills miss? Fitz? Nelson- he didn't even play last year. Jones? Barnett? Wilson who cost the Bills 2 games by failing to hold on to 2 ints?
Yes there will be a learning curve but as you pointed out the Vets would have a learning curve as well.

IMMEDIATELY the new WR's should be at least as good as Jones & Nelson who did not even play last year. by the 2nd half of the season, the Rookies should be BETTER than Jones & Nelson.

In a SIXTEEN game season, 6 WINS is TERRIBLE. Even for a new HC.

Once again, wrong question. The right question is "who have we added that is clearly better?" The answer is "no one." Even you admit that the rookies "SHOULD" be better. They haven't proven **** and you're just assuming that they'll be better.

In a 16 game season, 6 wins is the low end of mediocre, bordering on terrible. It's only 2 games under .500. This team is much more terrible than that.

[better days]

Once again, wrong question. The right question is "who have we added that is clearly better?" The answer is "no one." Even you admit that the rookies "SHOULD" be better. They haven't proven **** and you're just assuming that they'll be better.

In a 16 game season, 6 wins is the low end of mediocre, bordering on terrible. It's only 2 games under .500. This team is much more terrible than that.

It is the right question to ask because you make it sound like the Bills lost something important when they jettisoned those anchors that were holding this team down.

I already told you the QB position is clearly better than it was last year no matter who wins the starting job. The LB group is clearly better as is the WR group.

And I can't believe you of all people are arguing that 6 Wins in a 16 game season is not TERRIBLE. Chan was fired because he only won 6 games last year.

[BillsFever21]

Well, from the quality of your posts, you must have spent a lot of time at the concession stands & in the bathroom instead of watching the games.

If you did watch the games & know anything at all about football, you should know how bad Fitz was last year & how bad Wanny Coached the defense, NEVER calling for a BLITZ even when it was 3rd & LONG.

The Bills had the lowest blitz percentage in the entire NFL last year.

Because I don't share the same opinion of you that this is currently a playoff team? That's nothing new and unfortunately I haven't been wrong in years while every year I hear the same type of post and comments from those who think everyone associated with the team is good.

I have hope for Marrone but I'm sure when Gailey was hired you probably used the same reasons as to why we would be better. I wouldn't even doubt if you didn't consider Wanny a good hire too. I know way too many homers thought he was going to turn our defense around last season. Now the same people rip him and the others as the sole reason. Wash, rinse and repeat each time.

Just because you get rid of people and somebody else takes over doesn't automatically make them better. The same people said the exact stuff when Fitzpatrick and Gailey took over for Jauron and Edwards. They said we have to be better since we couldn't get any worse with them but still won 7 games a year. Then whenever we replaced coordinators, etc. Well not only did we not see any improvements they actually had a worse record.

I have hope for Marrone/Manuel for the future but there isn't any chance this team is a playoff contender this season. Most of those who think that are the same ones who have been saying it for 13 years now.