Doug Whaley: Stephon Gilmore’s made a leap this offseason

[swiper]

Doug Whaley: Stephon Gilmore’s made a leap this offseason Posted by Josh Alper on June 17, 2013, 12:20 PM EDT
http://nbcprofootballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/300x-118.jpg?w=250
Whether you call it rebuilding or something else, there’s no question that the Bills are again in a state of transition.

There’s a new coaching staff headed by Doug Marrone and a new General Manager in Doug Whaley and the chances for a long run on both fronts will have a lot to do with the team’s ability to stop opposing offenses through the air. Defensive coordinator Mike Pettine comes to Buffalo after years working with Rex Ryan in Baltimore and New York, with the defenses in the Jets years being built around Darrelle Revis (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4155/darrelle-revis)‘ ability to handle business on his side of the field without much help from the rest of the defense.

Pettine is installing a similarly aggressive defense in Buffalo and the best candidate to be a shutdown corner is 2012 first-round pick Stephon Gilmore (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7442/stephon-gilmore). Gilmore struggled with penalties as a rookie, but handled himself fairly well otherwise and Whaley says that the stage is set for bigger things in his second season (http://www.buffalobills.com/media-center/videos/Bills-Focus-Doug-Whaley-Sit-Down-Interview/6a9c9d8e-ea36-4ce4-9e78-cbd96a141a46).

“If you look at Gilmore and you’ve been around the practices this spring, he’s made a leap from Year One to Year Two,” Whaley said in an interview with Chris Brown of the team’s website. “And that’s very encouraging. Any time you see a rookie going into the second year not slip into that sophomore slump, but make a transition and improve, that’s always a positive.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/06/17/doug-whaley-stephon-gilmores-made-a-leap-this-offseason/

[OpIv37]

Here we go again.

First, Whaley may think Gilmore is the worst CB since Chris Watson, but he's not going to say that to the media. He has to keep player morale up and keep the fans interested. You can't trust what these guys say to the media.

Second, even if he is making plays, he's in shorts making plays with Kolb or Manuel throwing to either Stevie or a bunch of unproven guys in Graham and the rookies, learning a new offense. That's a lot different than making plays against Tom Brady in pads on game day. I'll believe it when I see it in a game.

[bf1]

I'll believe it when I see it.

[Mouldsie]

He's already pretty durn good

[Homegrown]

First, Whaley may think Gilmore is the worst CB since Chris Watson....

Chris Watson > Stephon Gilmore .... at punt catching

[Pinkerton Security]

Here we go again.

First, Whaley may think Gilmore is the worst CB since Chris Watson, but he's not going to say that to the media. He has to keep player morale up and keep the fans interested. You can't trust what these guys say to the media.

Second, even if he is making plays, he's in shorts making plays with Kolb or Manuel throwing to either Stevie or a bunch of unproven guys in Graham and the rookies, learning a new offense. That's a lot different than making plays against Tom Brady in pads on game day. I'll believe it when I see it in a game.

Knew this post was coming lol. What a loser.

[OpIv37]

Knew this post was coming lol. What a loser.

First, what did I say that wasn't true? Doing something in shorts in pre-season and doing them on the field during games are two COMPLETELY different things. Every year, there's at least one guy who looks great in practice then gets cut once the preseason games start because he clearly can't hack it in pads. And every year since this website has been in existence, we hear about how players improve so much between year 1 and year 2, yet, the sophomore slump is far, far more common once the game starts. It is what it is.

And second, you knew this post was coming? Wow, you're so smart. Guess what? It's going to keep coming as long as people keep thinking that what a coach or GM says publicly during pre-season actually means something. People complain that I repeat myself on this board, but no one complains about people constantly posting nonsense about how great players are 3 months before the season starts. Gimme a ****ing break- repitition isn't the problem. Being forced to acknowledge an unpleasant reality is.

And third, once again, you didn't even attempt to address the point and immediately made it about me. It's not about me. The reality is that GM's and coaches talk players up to the media and the reality is that playing well in shorts in June is ****ing meaningless. But, you don't want to accept that reality so you make it about me. Just man up and deal with it.

[Fixxxer]

He's already pretty durn good

yup

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/219158-Interesting-read-on-Gilmore

[CoolBreeze]

First, what did I say that wasn't true? Doing something in shorts in pre-season and doing them on the field during games are two COMPLETELY different things. Every year, there's at least one guy who looks great in practice then gets cut once the preseason games start because he clearly can't hack it in pads. And every year since this website has been in existence, we hear about how players improve so much between year 1 and year 2, yet, the sophomore slump is far, far more common once the game starts. It is what it is.

And second, you knew this post was coming? Wow, you're so smart. Guess what? It's going to keep coming as long as people keep thinking that what a coach or GM says publicly during pre-season actually means something. People complain that I repeat myself on this board, but no one complains about people constantly posting nonsense about how great players are 3 months before the season starts. Gimme a ****ing break- repitition isn't the problem. Being forced to acknowledge an unpleasant reality is.

And third, once again, you didn't even attempt to address the point and immediately made it about me. It's not about me. The reality is that GM's and coaches talk players up to the media and the reality is that playing well in shorts in June is ****ing meaningless. But, you don't want to accept that reality so you make it about me. Just man up and deal with it.

It's not your opinion that's wrong. And It's not your fault, but years of this team losing has turned you into the ultimate pessimistic monster...a real Debby Downer man lol.. Just try to stay positive, and find something positive on your team. Optimism never hurts anyone, even if it's repetitive...

[justasportsfan]

Here we go again.



No! There YOU go again with your itchy crotch. NO ONE is saying Gilmore is the next Revis. It's not like Whaley is talking about Aaron Williams.
So quick to shoot down anything positive said about the bills. .....And you wonder why people say you ***** just to *****.

[OpIv37]

No! There YOU go again with your itchy crotch. So quick to shoot down anything positive said about the bills. It's not like Whaley is talking about Aaron Williams.

It's not that it's positive that's the problem. It's that it's about how a guy is playing in shorts, coming from a guy who has a vested interest in both keeping team morale high and keeping fans interested in the team. It's the football equivalent of someone's mother telling them that they're the best-looking guy in school. There's no substance or objectivity to it.

[Night Train]

All 32 teams wax poetic about various players, schemes etc. during the off-season down time. Nothing wrong with promoting the product to keep the fanbase engaged. Take it at face value, whether you agree with it or not.

The press also needs to keep themselves employed.

[CoolBreeze]

It's not that it's positive that's the problem. It's that it's about how a guy is playing in shorts, coming from a guy who has a vested interest in both keeping team morale high and keeping fans interested in the team. It's the football equivalent of someone's mother telling them that they're the best-looking guy in school. There's no substance or objectivity to it.


My mother was lying all those years!!!!:chair:

[mayotm]

Anybody that actually watched the interview saw Whaley state that practices in shorts isn't real football.

[EDS]

So he is getting the better of the rookie receivers?

[Novacane]

You can have an I'll believe it when I see it attitude and still not be a negative a$sh0le anytime something positive is said about the team. I don't get excited about talk but still enjoy reading articles like this.

[DraftBoy]

Here we go again.

First, Whaley may think Gilmore is the worst CB since Chris Watson, but he's not going to say that to the media. He has to keep player morale up and keep the fans interested. You can't trust what these guys say to the media.

Second, even if he is making plays, he's in shorts making plays with Kolb or Manuel throwing to either Stevie or a bunch of unproven guys in Graham and the rookies, learning a new offense. That's a lot different than making plays against Tom Brady in pads on game day. I'll believe it when I see it in a game.

To be fair is there anything Whaley could say as of today that you'd truly believe about player development?

[BillsFever21]

I have high hopes for Gilmore. I also did after McKelvin's first season but you could see after a couple years that he couldn't cover worth a damn and you were just hoping it would come to him with experience. Unfortunately it never did and he's been awful. At least Gilmore showed some good coverage ability in his first season even though he made a ton of penalties. We'll see if he can make the next step this season.

[Captain Obvious]

First, what did I say that wasn't true? Doing something in shorts in pre-season and doing them on the field during games are two COMPLETELY different things. Every year, there's at least one guy who looks great in practice then gets cut once the preseason games start because he clearly can't hack it in pads.



You obviously did not watch any of the 2nd half of last season or you have no clue Stephon Gilmore held every WR he covered in the 2nd half of the season to under 50 yards a game. Or you have no clue who Stephon Gilmore is you're going on and on like Whaley was talking about some undrafted FA

[Meathead]

NO ONE is saying Gilmore is the next Revis.

i am

[Meathead]

mcknumbnuts actually looked quite impressive when thrown back in down the stretch last season. i think they did the right thing giving him an extension. as long as he can even come close to maintaining that level of play he will be fine as the cb2

[Don't Panic]

And third, once again, you didn't even attempt to address the point and immediately made it about me. It's not about me.

false. It is about you. It's about your unbelievable knack for finding the dark side in anything. Whaley simply said he liked what he has seen in terms o growth and you pull out the razor blades. You are downer dude. Negative to the core. Not only is that no way to go through life as a Bills fan, it's no way to go through life period. In essence, you have two choices: quit liking this team or quit finding the wrong in everything they do. It comes down to that.

[ublinkwescore]

In op's defense, the bills have made a lot of dumb moves... I'm not a negative nancy, but the guy does have a method behind his madness.

[TigerJ]

I think Whaley was being fairly transparent in his assessment of Gilmore. He did specify that his assessment related only to what Gilmore was doing in the OTAs and mini-camp, and that performance in games is a different animal. Improvement in practice appearances does not necessarily mean improvement in game performance. However, you'd rather have a player who improves what he's doing in practice than one who doesn't. If you're not getting better in a non-contact practice setting, you're probably not going to play better in actual games.

[OpIv37]

You obviously did not watch any of the 2nd half of last season or you have no clue Stephon Gilmore held every WR he covered in the 2nd half of the season to under 50 yards a game. Or you have no clue who Stephon Gilmore is you're going on and on like Whaley was talking about some undrafted FA

It doesn't matter who Whaley is talking about. Comments about what guys are doing in shorts in June are meaningless.

[OpIv37]

false. It is about you. It's about your unbelievable knack for finding the dark side in anything. Whaley simply said he liked what he has seen in terms o growth and you pull out the razor blades. You are downer dude. Negative to the core. Not only is that no way to go through life as a Bills fan, it's no way to go through life period. In essence, you have two choices: quit liking this team or quit finding the wrong in everything they do. It comes down to that.its not the dark side, it's the truth. I never said that Gilmore won't be good this year. I simply said Whaleys comments aren't proof of anything, which is absolutely true, and we've seen plenty of players who looked good in shorts that turned out to suck, which is also absolutely true.

There is no "dark side" to the truth. Once again, you didn't address the points I made and simply made it about me, because reality was too harsh. "Oh no, our starting CB might not be as good as our GM says he is in June." That's life- deal with it.

[OpIv37]

To be fair is there anything Whaley could say as of today that you'd truly believe about player development?
No, and that's my point. Anything a GM says publicly about a player has to be taken with a grain of salt, especially when it's early and there are still a lot of tickets to sell. But every time a coach or GM compliments a player to the media, it somehow becomes news. People get on me for being "repetitive" but they never get on the people who start these threads for continuing to post this tripe.

[OpIv37]

You can have an I'll believe it when I see it attitude and still not be a negative a$sh0le anytime something positive is said about the team. I don't get excited about talk but still enjoy reading articles like this.
Not negativity. Reality. Compliments in June mean nothing. If there is anything to compliment after a win in Sept and I'm still complaining about the compliments, then you'll have a point.

[DraftBoy]

No, and that's my point. Anything a GM says publicly about a player has to be taken with a grain of salt, especially when it's early and there are still a lot of tickets to sell. But every time a coach or GM compliments a player to the media, it somehow becomes news. People get on me for being "repetitive" but they never get on the people who start these threads for continuing to post this tripe.

Its always news. Attempting to argue its not in completely pointless.

[OpIv37]

Its always news. Attempting to argue its not in completely pointless.

GM's saying good things about their players to the media with tickets left to sell? That's news? No- it's what they do. It fails the "man bites dog" test.

Now, if the Jets or Patriots GM complimented a Bills player in June, that would be news

[swiper]

Not negativity. Reality. Compliments in June mean nothing. If there is anything to compliment after a win in Sept and I'm still complaining about the compliments, then you'll have a point.

So why don't you just keep your computer off until training camp starts? Really. Your point is ridiculous being that what you've said goes directly against what you're doing - which is surveilling these sites looking for such reports.

[DraftBoy]

No, and that's my point. Anything a GM says publicly about a player has to be taken with a grain of salt, especially when it's early and there are still a lot of tickets to sell. But every time a coach or GM compliments a player to the media, it somehow becomes news. People get on me for being "repetitive" but they never get on the people who start these threads for continuing to post this tripe.

Which is my point, you openly admit that there is nothing anybody could say that you'd believe so your point is bias.

[DraftBoy]

GM's saying good things about their players to the media with tickets left to sell? That's news? No- it's what they do. It fails the "man bites dog" test.

Now, if the Jets or Patriots GM complimented a Bills player in June, that would be news

I'll be sure to send your opinion on what's news to every local and national media company that runs a story about a GM/Coach talking positive about their player. You're getting in over your head here, arguing media semantics isn't going to get you anywhere on this one.

[mayotm]

So why don't you just keep your computer off until training camp starts? Really. Your point is ridiculous being that what you've said goes directly against what you're doing - which is surveilling these sites looking for such reports.Exactly.

[Night Train]

Marrone was on the local radio with John Murphy last night, speaking about the recent OTA's (GASP !) and making some general observations. Did mention Gilmore and noted his improvement as the practices progressed.

[OpIv37]

So why don't you just keep your computer off until training camp starts? Really. Your point is ridiculous being that what you've said goes directly against what you're doing - which is surveilling these sites looking for such reports.

Um, no- I'm looking at the site looking for actual NEWS- injuries, player transactions, position switches, etc. instead, I see this tripe.

"I don't like what you said so go away!" What is this, kindergarten?

[OpIv37]

Which is my point, you openly admit that there is nothing anybody could say that you'd believe so your point is bias.

My point is that what they are saying is biased so no one should believe it. Pointing out someone else's bias doesn't make me biased- it makes me realistic enough to acknowledge that people have biases.

[Novacane]

In op's defense, the bills have made a lot of dumb moves... I'm not a negative nancy, but the guy does have a method behind his madness.




We all know that!!

[DraftBoy]

My point is that what they are saying is biased so no one should believe it. Pointing out someone else's bias doesn't make me biased- it makes me realistic enough to acknowledge that people have biases.

True but when you openly admit you refuse to believe anything you expose your own bias and thus your logical conclusion is of question.

[justasportsfan]

It's that it's about how a guy is playing in shorts,. He was talking about improving based what he sees this year as compared to the SAME TIME last year. No one is making predictions.


coming from a guy who has a vested interest in both keeping team morale high and keeping fans interested in the team. What do you expect him to do? Maybe he should just not set interviews to make OP happy.
It's the football equivalent of someone's mother telling them that they're the best-looking guy in school. There's no substance or objectivity to it.

Like there's substance and objectivity to your *****ing about an interview that EVERYONE knows neither here nor there? You're *****ing just to ***** and when people call you out on it, it's because you asked for it.

[justasportsfan]

And third, once again, you didn't even attempt to address the point and immediately made it about me. It's not about me. The reality is that GM's and coaches talk players up to the media and the reality is that playing well in shorts in June is ****ing meaningless. But, you don't want to accept that reality so you make it about me. Just man up and deal with it.

Op whining about the obvious.

[OpIv37]

Op whining about the obvious.

If its so obvious why do we need threads to discuss it? Why are people so upset with me for simply pointing out the "obvious" that they clearly didnt see because they heard what they wanted to hear?

[OpIv37]

He was talking about improving based what he sees this year as compared to the SAME TIME last year. No one is making predictions.

What do you expect him to do? Maybe he should just not set interviews to make OP happy.

Like there's substance and objectivity to your *****ing about an interview that EVERYONE knows neither here nor there? You're *****ing just to ***** and when people call you out on it, it's because you asked for it.

First, he did what I expect him to do- its his job. But it's meaningless an I don't see why there should be an article about it and I don't see why we need a thread to discuss it.

Second, along the same lines, if EVERYONE knew that it was "neither here nor there," why is there an article and why is there a thread about it? Clearly, some people didnt see how meaningless this is or else there wouldn't be a discussion about it.

[justasportsfan]

First, he did what I expect him to do- its his job. But it's meaningless an I don't see why there should be an article about it and I don't see why we need a thread to discuss it.. part if his job is being interviewed and so he said what he said. You telling us that what he said is meaningless is as meaningless as you *****ing about someone doing part of his job.

I guess NO ONE should ever make any observations when asked. :rolleyes:


Second, along the same lines, if EVERYONE knew that it was "neither here nor there," why is there an article and why is there a thread about it? Clearly, some people didnt see how meaningless this is or else there wouldn't be a discussion about it.


maybe all news, sports , leisure ,etc. websites should just shut down . The only ones who care about whats written are people like you who find something to ***** just to *****.

[justasportsfan]

If its so obvious why do we need threads to discuss it?

Here's another obvious, it's a bills message board and I guess people can post something related to the bills just like you ***** about anything slightly postitive about the bills?

[OpIv37]

Here's another obvious, it's a bills message board and I guess people can post something related to the bills just like you ***** about anything slightly postitive about the bills?

Once again, "positive" has nothing to do with it. The reality is that it's meaningless.

[OpIv37]

part if his job is being interviewed and so he said what he said. You telling us that what he said is meaningless is as meaningless as you *****ing about someone doing part of his job.

I guess NO ONE should ever make any observations when asked. :rolleyes:




maybe all news, sports , leisure ,etc. websites should just shut down . The only ones who care about whats written are people like you who find something to ***** just to *****.
I didn't say that at all. I just said meaningless comments about entertainment shouldn't be news.

But, some sportswriter needs to justify their job and feed our short attention spans with something, so they ask GM's questions knowing they'll get nonsense answers.

[psubills62]

If Gilmore has made the leap, that would be ideal. Usually the second season is when top CB's tend to emerge.

It feels like the idea that someone with bias cannot make a true statement is far too ubiquitous. There's no doubt the Bills want to market themselves, but is it impossible they're marketing something true?

[Captain Obvious]

So quick to shoot down anything positive said about the bills. ......

OPIV expects Marcell Dareus and every Bills player to attend every practice every OTAs that are done in shorts because in his words "You can never get enough practice even in shorts" yet his refuses to believe any player could improve throughout the course of those practices it makes no sense at all

[justasportsfan]

OPIV expects Marcell Dareus and every Bills player to attend every practice every OTAs that are done in shorts because in his words "You can never get enough practice even in shorts" yet his refuses to believe any player could improve throughout the course of those practices it makes no sense at all

his whines are "meaningless" but it's nice to point out the obvious that he does it just to whine.

[OpIv37]

OPIV expects Marcell Dareus and every Bills player to attend every practice every OTAs that are done in shorts because in his words "You can never get enough practice even in shorts" yet his refuses to believe any player could improve throughout the course of those practices it makes no sense at all

Two completely different things.

Players need to practice to get better, but being good in practice is not the same as being good in games.

[OpIv37]

his whines are "meaningless" but it's nice to point out the obvious that he does it just to whine.

Pointing out reality is not whining. The problem is that too many people want to hear good things about the team to hear good things. The reality that the comments are meaningless is lost on them.

[justasportsfan]

The problem is that too many people want to hear good things about the team to hear good things.

I agree but the reality is, you need good things about the team yourself so you can shoot it down and ***** about it just to *****.

[DraftBoy]

Two completely different things.

Players need to practice to get better, but being good in practice is not the same as being good in games.

That's quite a reach and you know it.

[better days]

If its so obvious why do we need threads to discuss it? Why are people so upset with me for simply pointing out the "obvious" that they clearly didnt see because they heard what they wanted to hear?

What makes you think people don't see the obvious?

I doubt ANYONE needs you to point it out.

[OpIv37]

That's quite a reach and you know it.

Not at all.

Everyone needs to practice to get better.

Not everyone who is good in practice is good on the field, and you know it as well as I do.

[OpIv37]

What makes you think people don't see the obvious?

I doubt ANYONE needs you to point it out.

Seriously? If its so obvious, then we wouldn't be bothering to discuss it. But people still bother to discuss it, so those people need to be told no matter how obvious it is to some of us.

[OpIv37]

I agree but the reality is, you need good things about the team yourself so you can shoot it down and ***** about it just to *****.
I need that why exactly? I'd prefer this crap wouldn't get posted so I wouldn't have to point out that it's crap, then take a bunch of heat from people saying I "***** just to *****" for simply pointing out reality.

[TedMock]

I need that why exactly? I'd prefer this crap wouldn't get posted so I wouldn't have to point out that it's crap, then take a bunch of heat from people saying I "***** just to *****" for simply pointing out reality.

This is it. You don't have to point it out. Just don't respond at all if it's something you couldn't care less about. That's what I do. Takes about a half second to decide I don't care and I'm done. You got stuck in a conversation and posted several times about something you don't care about (assuming that, like me, you don't care about crap). The journalist who wrote it now has people talking about it good and bad. Mission accomplished on his part. Don't feed it.

[OpIv37]

Yeah well if I don't point out that its crap, we are going to spend the next 3 months hearing about how great Gilmore is cuz of what Whaley said.

Of course, we are probably going to get that anyway, but at least I feel like I tried.

[justasportsfan]

I need that why exactly? so you can do this
I "***** just to *****"

[swiper]

Um, no- I'm looking at the site looking for actual NEWS- injuries, player transactions, position switches, etc. instead, I see this tripe.

"I don't like what you said so go away!" What is this, kindergarten?

If it were kindergarten then you'd fit right in. The report that Gilmore is showing progress by the GM is actual news.

[OpIv37]

If it were kindergarten then you'd fit right in. The report that Gilmore is showing progress by the GM is actual news.
No, it's not.

One more time: the GM has a vested interest in keeping the fans interested to keep ticket sales high, keeping player morale high and keeping individual players happy.

Even if he thinks Gilmore is the worst CB since Chris Watson, he's not going to say that to the media.

If an objective source says Gilmore is improving, then MAYBE it's news, depending on the credibility of the source. But GM's are only going to say good things about players in public, regardless of whether or not it's true. Therefore, not news. It's just a GM doing his job.

[justasportsfan]

ON John Murphy last night, Marrone said Gilmore is having a great camp. Colin Brown is getting better.

***** about that OP.....

[OpIv37]

ON John Murphy last night, Marrone said Gilmore is having a great camp. Colin Brown is getting better.

***** about that OP.....
Coach has the same vested interests as the GM- once again, even if he thinks those guys suck, he's not gonna say it to the media.

[swiper]

No, it's not.

One more time: the GM has a vested interest in keeping the fans interested to keep ticket sales high, keeping player morale high and keeping individual players happy.

Even if he thinks Gilmore is the worst CB since Chris Watson, he's not going to say that to the media.

If an objective source says Gilmore is improving, then MAYBE it's news, depending on the credibility of the source. But GM's are only going to say good things about players in public, regardless of whether or not it's true. Therefore, not news. It's just a GM doing his job.

Reading through your responses to this thread make me realize that you are even a worse poster than NOT THE DUDE.

- - - Updated - - -


Coach has the same vested interests as the GM- once again, even if he thinks those guys suck, he's not gonna say it to the media.

Quit while your ahead.

[OpIv37]

Reading through your responses to this thread make me realize that you are even a worse poster than NOT THE DUDE.

- - - Updated - - -



Quit while your ahead.
Lmao- intelligent, well-formed response. You didn't even attempt to address the point, which shows the weakness of your position.

[swiper]

When you're so blatantly wrong and everybody in the thread is against you you choose to just keep on posting your lame drivel. So from my pov, what is the point. you just ignore people when they point out the flaws in your thinking.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Op getting destroyed AGAIN.

Some things never change!!!

[Captain Obvious]

Yeah well if I don't point out that its crap, we are going to spend the next 3 months hearing about how great Gilmore is cuz of what Whaley said.

Of course, we are probably going to get that anyway, but at least I feel like I tried.
So you're basically admitting you're miserable and you wont stand for even the slightest optimism regarding ONE player

[Skooby]

No, it's not.

One more time: the GM has a vested interest in keeping the fans interested to keep ticket sales high, keeping player morale high and keeping individual players happy.

Even if he thinks Gilmore is the worst CB since Chris Watson, he's not going to say that to the media.

If an objective source says Gilmore is improving, then MAYBE it's news, depending on the credibility of the source. But GM's are only going to say good things about players in public, regardless of whether or not it's true. Therefore, not news. It's just a GM doing his job.

Unless of course he's actually getting better after his rookie season, these things do happen.

[Captain Obvious]

Unless of course he's actually getting better after his rookie season, these things do happen.

Incredibly OPIV wont accept that logic. He once claimed NO player that the Bills have drafted in the last 10 years have improved from there rookie season to there 2nd season

[TigerJ]

I don't mind at all when the GM or coach of the Bills say a player is doing well. Nor do I take it as proof that said player is going to have a great year. I have no reason to think the GM or coach is being disingenuous when they express those opinions. On the positive side, it's nice to hear good opinions in June when real news is virtually non-existent. It helps fill the time. However, when training camp comes it won't matter much, and when preseason comes and we see the players in action against real opponents that's all we'll be paying attention to at that point. What Whaley and Marrone say now won't matter at all.

[BidsJr]

Oh wow what a shock. Another thread hijacked by the billszone resident troll.

[OpIv37]

When you're so blatantly wrong and everybody in the thread is against you you choose to just keep on posting your lame drivel. So from my pov, what is the point. you just ignore people when they point out the flaws in your thinking.

People aren't against me because I'm wrong.

I'm 100% right. Majority opinion doesn't determine right or wrong because reality is what it is.

People are against me because they heard a compliment to a player and don't want to deal with the reality the compliment is biased.

- - - Updated - - -


Oh wow what a shock. Another thread hijacked by the billszone resident troll.

I hijacked nothing.

I stated the reality and the people who couldn't handle it made the thread about me. They're the ones who hijacked the thread.

[OpIv37]

Incredibly OPIV wont accept that logic. He once claimed NO player that the Bills have drafted in the last 10 years have improved from there rookie season to there 2nd season
For. The. Last. ****ing. Time.

I never once made that claim. Every year, when we fail to add talent through FA, people on this board say that the team will get better from "rookie improvement from year 1 to year 2." What I said is that we've never had enough rookie improvement to actually make the team better, which is absolutely 100% true. I never once said that no individual rookie has ever improved.

[OpIv37]

So you're basically admitting you're miserable and you wont stand for even the slightest optimism regarding ONE player

No, I'm saying that optimism because the GM complimented a player in June is unwarranted optimism. It's a biased opinion from someone who is not going to tell the truth to the media. Deal with it.

[OpIv37]

Unless of course he's actually getting better after his rookie season, these things do happen.

I never said they don't.

The reality is that we won't know if Gilmore is getting better, and we won't until the game starts. We didn't know before Whaley made his comments and we still don't know, because his comments are biased.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that statement, but people here choose to make it about me rather than deal with reality. Sometimes I don't even know why I bother to post here anymore. No one ever wants to discuss the issues. As soon as I post something mildly unpleasant to them, they start arguing about my tone and being "positive" or "negative" when all I did was state the truth. Then they harp on me for being "repetitive" when the reality is that if I'm being repetitive, it's because other people are posting the same crap over and over and I'm responding to it over and over. Yet, I'm the only one who ever gets criticized for being "repetitive."

This board has really gone downhill. No one wants to have an honest discussion of the team. All they want is a bunch of rah-rah homers talking about all the good things and ignoring anything that's seen as "bad" or "negative" despite the fact that the team has been a cluster**** for 13 years. And if anyone points out a mildly unpleasant reality, it becomes a huge battle. It's sickening, really.

[OpIv37]

that's full of crap. Everyone knows we haven't made playoffs in over a decade. We just don't find something to ***** about when a GM/coach makes an observation even though THEY ARE NOT MAKING PREDICTIONS

If this board is going downhill it's because you're contributing to it by *****ing just to *****. You ARE the boards biggest beach an have no one to blame but yourself

I didn't ***** about anything. I simply pointed out the reality that the GM isn't exactly an objective source. And if you go back to the first page, I wasn't the only one who said "I'll believe it when I see it."

But I'm the only one taking **** for it because so many of you would rather make it about me.

[swiper]

I didn't ***** about anything. I simply pointed out the reality that the GM isn't exactly an objective source.

No. That's not what you did at all. What you did was imply that one cannot believe anything the team GM says about the team and it's players at all. Which, of course, is patently ridiculous.

[swiper]

People aren't against me because I'm wrong.

I'm 100% right.

We get it. You're a legend in your own mind.




I hijacked nothing.

You sure did.

Now both the coach and the GM have come out seperately to remark that Gilmore has taken noticeable steps forward. And all you are doing in verbally stomping up and down claiming you can't believe any of that. That not only is a classic thread hijack, it's a temper tantrum. A grown up would have walked away after the taking the beating you have here.

[OpIv37]

No. That's not what you did at all. What you did was imply that one cannot believe anything the team GM says about the team and it's players at all. Which, of course, is patently ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous at all. The GM does not have the luxury to say negative things about his players to the media, period. And he has to put asses in seats. It's marketing, not honest opinions.

[OpIv37]

We get it. You're a legend in your own mind.





You sure did.

Now both the coach and the GM have come out seperately to remark that Gilmore has taken noticeable steps forward. And all you are doing in verbally stomping up and down claiming you can't believe any of that. That not only is a classic thread hijack, it's a temper tantrum. A grown up would have walked away after the taking the beating you have here.

Lmao- a temper tantrum? It's no such thing. Some of you just can't understand the slightest bit of source scrutiny. You heard what you wanted to hear- end of story. Anyone who says something differently "hijacks" the thread or throws a "temper tantrum." This kind of reaction is pathetic and it has completely diluted the level of discourse on this site.

[DraftBoy]

Not at all.

Everyone needs to practice to get better.

Not everyone who is good in practice is good on the field, and you know it as well as I do.

So explain how veterans who openly admit to taking camp easy get better since according to you they need it.

[OpIv37]

So explain how veterans who openly admit to taking camp easy get better since according to you they need it.
Well if they're taking camp easy, they're not really practicing, are they? But if you must know, at least they are there learning the new systems.

[Novacane]

Coach has the same vested interests as the GM- once again, even if he thinks those guys suck, he's not gonna say it to the media.



If he thinks they suck he wouldn't say anything about them. I think it;'s obvious they're excited about Gilmore and expect a lot from him. I'll believe it when I see it on the field too. Don't see why you can't just say that and leave it instead of *****ing about it.

[OpIv37]

If he thinks they suck he wouldn't say anything about them. I think it;'s obvious they're excited about Gilmore and expect a lot from him. I'll believe it when I see it on the field too. Don't see why you can't just say that and leave it instead of *****ing about it.
Disagree. The coach and the GM have an interest in keeping the fans interested. Saying that the first round draft pick from last year- who already played pretty well- is improving is a great way to do that. The GM said it first so the coach could just be toeing the company line and/or trying to help Gilmore's confidence.

Maybe Gilmore is improving, maybe he isn't. But these comments are completely irrelevant to any improvement from Gilmore.

And once again, I didn't ***** about anything. I just pointed out the reality that the coach and GM aren't objective on these matters. But, again, people heard what they want to hear and perceive anything to the contrary as "*****ing."

[Novacane]

You made your point 3 pages ago. Why keep carrying on? You are so cynical. Maybe they actually believe what they're saying?????? NO! They are just trying to keep our interest and sell tickets. Do you truly believe there are people sitting on the fence about buying tickets that are now going to buy them cause the coach and GM say Gilmore is showing improvement? Come on! If they were talking about EJ I'd maybe give some credit to your argument. Nobody is going to buy tickets because a coach says at CB is improving.

[OpIv37]

You made your point 3 pages ago. Why keep carrying on? You are so cynical. Maybe they actually believe what they're saying?????? NO! They are just trying to keep our interest and sell tickets. Do you truly believe there are people sitting on the fence about buying tickets that are now going to buy them cause the coach and GM say Gilmore is showing improvement? Come on! If they were talking about EJ I'd maybe give some credit to your argument. Nobody is going to buy tickets because a coach says at CB is improving.

Any perceived sign that the team is improving is at least going to hold fan interest- it may not relate to ticket sales directly but it's a step in the process.

And it's not being cynical- it's being realistic. How many times have we heard a coach or GM say a guy is improving in the off-season only to see that guy struggle in games? How many times have we heard a coach or GM talk positively about a back-up stepping up for a guy who was lost to FA or just injured only to see the back-up completely suck?

And even if it is cynical, how can anyone who has been paying attention to this team not be at least a little cynical at this point? They've made so many bad moves and have fed us so much bull**** that they haven't earned the benefit of the doubt.

[Meathead]

You ARE the boards biggest beach

http://dailypicksandflicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Shark-costume-baby-on-the-beach-200x300.jpg

[Novacane]

Any perceived sign that the team is improving is at least going to hold fan interest- it may not relate to ticket sales directly but it's a step in the process.

And it's not being cynical- it's being realistic. How many times have we heard a coach or GM say a guy is improving in the off-season only to see that guy struggle in games? How many times have we heard a coach or GM talk positively about a back-up stepping up for a guy who was lost to FA or just injured only to see the back-up completely suck?

And even if it is cynical, how can anyone who has been paying attention to this team not be at least a little cynical at this point? They've made so many bad moves and have fed us so much bull**** that they haven't earned the benefit of the doubt.


I agree and I think most of us are. Who's saying Gilmore's gonna be Revis because of what Whaley said about him? I like the changes that were made but have been burned enough not to get excited. Can't one be hopeful yet skeptical at the same time? If you have no hope why even bother following the team?

[OpIv37]

I agree and I think most of us are. Who's saying Gilmore's gonna be Revis because of what Whaley said about him? I like the changes that were made but have been burned enough not to get excited. Can't one be hopeful yet skeptical at the same time? If you have no hope why even bother following the team?

Well, two things.... I never said anyone thought Gilmore is gonna be Revis- I simply stated the reasons why I'm skeptical of the comments.

Second, there is a difference between hope and expectations. I hope I win the lottery, but I don't expect it to happen. I always hope the Bills will do well. But on a more logical level, they haven't given me any reason to expect them to be better in a very, very long time. I'm cautiously optimistic that Whaley, Marrone, Manuel etc mean that this team is finally on the right track, but this is a rebuilding year. Regardless if Marrone makes us SB champs in 3 years or is in the unemployment line in 3 years, this year is going to be an epic cluster****. Too much change, not enough talent yet. Granted, the changes were necessary but they still come at a cost.

[justasportsfan]

I didn't ***** about anything. I simply pointed out the reality that the GM isn't exactly an objective source. And if you go back to the first page, I wasn't the only one who said "I'll believe it when I see it."

But I'm the only one taking **** for it because so many of you would rather make it about me.

Bf1 doesn't whine or get pissed when someone is excited about something. You admittedly get pissed when someone does and you don't agree with that excitement.

If you listened to the interview before you whined about what was said, Whaley himself said that it's just shorts practice . Nothing wrong with that unless you're a debbie downer and love to do nothing but cry.

[OpIv37]

Bf1 doesn't whine or get pissed when someone is excited about something. You admittedly get pissed when someone does and you don't agree with that excitement.

Because my logic is better than theirs. Some people on this website have this crazy idea that all opinions are equal. They aren't- some are based on fact while others are based simply on how people want things to be.

Getting excited if Gilmore plays well in week 1? Fine, I won't argue that. Getting excited because the GM said he's better in the off-season? Stupid.

And don't say "well no one in this thread is getting excited" after you're the one who brought up the excitement issue.

[DraftBoy]

Well if they're taking camp easy, they're not really practicing, are they? But if you must know, at least they are there learning the new systems.

You can just make these broad assumptions because you know this? Similarly to how you assumed what Dareus wasn't doing? You've come to a lot of conclusions based on nothing more than your opinion this off-season. That's a dangerous line to walk logically.

[Meathead]

if a baby in a shark costume cant stop the bickering nothing can

[OpIv37]

You can just make these broad assumptions because you know this? Similarly to how you assumed what Dareus wasn't doing? You've come to a lot of conclusions based on nothing more than your opinion this off-season. That's a dangerous line to walk logically.

What assumption did I make about Dareus? Players need to practice to get better, especially those who underperform. Dareus underperformed last year and missed at least part of the mini-camp. I never said he didn't have a reason for it because it doesn't matter. The CBA only allows so many practice opportunities and for whatever reason he missed one of those limited opportunities. No assumptions there whatsoever.

And you're the one who said guys are taking it easy in practice, not me. That's your assumption, not mine.

[justasportsfan]

Because my logic is better than theirs. Okay, Mr. I'm smarter than everyone else . For the 100th time, being a FANATIC has more to do with emotions than logic. Wish me to dumb it further for you?

It's illogical to keep coming back to a message board where most posters upset you when they post their emotions about a team they are FANATIC about yet you keep coming back for more punishment. You don't have the right to be talking logic if you can't understand that.

[Captain Obvious]

And you're the one who said guys are taking it easy in practice, not me. That's your assumption, not mine.

Draftboy has been to many HS and college football practices. Hes more knowledgeable about these things compared to you or the rest of us. It's foolish to take him on regarding this issue

[OpIv37]

Draftboy has been to many HS and college football practices. Hes more knowledgeable about these things compared to you or the rest of us. It's foolish to take him on regarding this issue

It's foolish to assume hs and college athletes doing it for the love of the game and hoping to make the pros practice the same as pros who already have their millions.

[OpIv37]

Okay, Mr. I'm smarter than everyone else . For the 100th time, being a FANATIC has more to do with emotions than logic. Wish me to dumb it further for you?

It's illogical to keep coming back to a message board where most posters upset you when they post their emotions about a team they are FANATIC about yet you keep coming back for more punishment. You don't have the right to be talking logic if you can't understand that.

Oh really? Then what's the purpose of this board? Do you want it to be the best Bills board on the Internet with true, honest discussion? Or do you want it to be a carbon copy of the official BBMB where it's just a bunch of homers reassuring each other about how great the team is going to be all off-season and making excuses for every ****ty player or coach during the season?

[better days]

Oh really? Then what's the purpose of this board? Do you want it to be the best Bills board on the Internet with true, honest discussion? Or do you want it to be a carbon copy of the official BBMB where it's just a bunch of homers reassuring each other about how great the team is going to be all off-season and making excuses for every ****ty player or coach during the season?

It is one thing to be critical when that criticism is warranted, it is another to be critical of EVERYTHING if that criticism is warranted or not.

That is the problem people have with you Op. For example you were critical of the Bills WR position after they got rid of Jones & Nelson. You did not give them any time to ADD players in the draft & FA before being critical. NOW the Bills WR group is being talked about as the best in the division by people that are not Bills fans.

[OpIv37]

It is one thing to be critical when that criticism is warranted, it is another to be critical of EVERYTHING if that criticism is warranted or not.

That is the problem people have with you Op. For example you were critical of the Bills WR position after they got rid of Jones & Nelson. You did not give them any time to ADD players in the draft & FA before being critical. NOW the Bills WR group is being talked about as the best in the division by people that are not Bills fans.
Lmao, the Bills WR group is Stevie, then a bunch of unproven guys in Graham and the rookies. Any talk of them being the best of anything is EXTREMELY premature.

We lost two vets- granted, mediocre vets- and replaced them with a bunch of unknowns. They could be great, or they could be James Hardy, Malcolm Kelly and Devin Thomas all over again. This is exactly the kind of crap I'm talking about. We have no proof whatsoever that the guys we added are better than the guys we lost, yet, you're already harping on me for not giving the Bills credit? Give me a ****ing break.

[justasportsfan]

Oh really? Then what's the purpose of this board? Do you want it to be the best Bills board on the Internet with true, honest discussion? Or do you want it to be a carbon copy of the official BBMB where it's just a bunch of homers reassuring each other about how great the team is going to be all off-season and making excuses for every ****ty player or coach during the season?

I was talking about logic since you talk about having better logic than anyone else. Why are you here on a FANS MB where FANS post their emotions about a team they love(another emotion) ? you yourself are getting all emotionally upset about other peoples emotions and you keep coming back? Not logical so don't tell us your logic is better than anyone else's.

[OpIv37]

I was talking about logic since you talk about having better logic than anyone else. Why are you here on a FANS MB where FANS post their emotions about a team they love(another emotion) ? you yourself are getting all emotionally upset about other peoples emotions and you keep coming back? Not logical so don't tell us your logic is better than anyone else's.

Exactly my point- as soon as I posted, everyone let their emotions get the best of them and we stopped discussing the team or the issue at hand, which was Whaley's comment this time. And yes, unfortunately I got caught up in it too. But if people could just read the post and react sanely, then we could have a legit discussion. I posted why I think Whaley's comments are biased. If someone has a logical reason to disagree with that, post it and we'll have a discussion, which is what this board is for. Instead, all I got was "Waaaahhh Op's whining again- he's such a pessimist and hates anything positive."

That's why I think my logic is better. No one even attempted to refute my point or say something more logical- they just complained about what I wrote, which shows a lack of an intelligent response.

[justasportsfan]

And yes, unfortunately I got caught up in it too.


That's why I think my logic is better. No one even attempted to refute my point or say something more logical- they just complained about what I wrote, which shows a lack of an intelligent response.

You get caught up all the time over what someone POSTS here especially when it's emotionally positive . So get off your high horse . You're no different from everyone here except that you're emotionally negative.

[OpIv37]

You get caught up all the time over what someone POSTS here especially when it's emotionally positive . So get off your high horse . You're no different from everyone here except that you're emotionally negative.

I always start off discussing the topic at hand- that's what makes me different. But the second I say something perceived as "negative"- no matter how factual or realistic it actually is- people attack me for being a "negative nancy" or a"pessimist" or whatever. And yes, then I get sucked in too. I'm not denying that- I try to stay on topic but fail all too often. Yet, somehow I'm always the one who gets accused of hijacking the thread despite at least making the effort to stay on topic when the people arguing with me aren't.

And no, I'm not "emotionally negative." And I'm tired of that perception, I'm just more interested in discussing the team as it really is, and unfortunately, the team is so bad that the reality is that there is a whole lot more "negative" than "positive." And there are too many people on this board who don't want to hear anything "negative" even though it's the reality, so they take it out on me for being willing to acknowledge that reality.

I know there are "fanatics" on this board. I know I'm never going to be popular when I'm pointing out things people don't want to hear. And I really don't care. I just want to be able to have a legit discussion about the team without it turning into this stupid "op's a negative nancy" **** all the time, but too many people would rather whine about my perceived "pessimism" than have a real discussion.

[justasportsfan]

But the second I say something perceived as "negative"- no matter how factual or realistic it actually is- people attack me for being a "negative nancy" or a"pessimist" or whatever.

Do you have facts that Gilmore (in shorts) this year is not looking any better than Gilmore of same time last year? Is it UNREALISTIC for Gilmore or a rookie from last year to look better this year?

[OpIv37]

Do you have facts that Gilmore (in shorts) this year is not looking any better than Gilmore of same time last year? Is it UNREALISTIC for Gilmore or a rookie from last year to look better this year?

I never said Gilmore isn't looking better than last year or that it's unrealistic.

What I said was that it's unrealistic to think Gilmore is doing better simply because the GM told that to the media. That's it. If someone has some other reason to believe Gilmore is doing better and reinforce what Whaley said from a more objective source, out with it, please. But no one did that- all they did was whine about what they perceived as me "whining."

[justasportsfan]

What I said was that it's unrealistic to think Gilmore is doing better simply because the GM told that to the media.
Obviously he could be lying but it's also not unrealistic to think that he could be telling the truth. He's there and you're not.


If someone has some other reason to believe Gilmore is doing better and reinforce what Whaley said from a more objective source, out with it, please. But no one did that- all they did was whine about what they perceived as me "whining."


If you brought any other objective source that disputes what Whaley said, then I will agree with you. You brought nothing .

[OpIv37]

Obviously he could be lying but it's also not unrealistic to think that he could be telling the truth. He's there and you're not.




If you brought any other objective source that disputes what Whaley said, then I will agree with you. You brought nothing .

I brought the very real biases that the GM deals with and the reality that the GM doesn't have the luxury of being honest with the media. It is what it is.

[justasportsfan]

I brought the very real biases that the GM deals with and the reality that the GM doesn't have the luxury of being honest with the media. It is what it is.

Yes, you brought a negative thought of GM's even though they could also be telling the truth or just stating an HONEST observation. You harped on the negative. Thats your problem, as always.It is what it is.

[OpIv37]

Yes, you brought a negative thought of GM's even though they could also be telling the truth or just stating an HONEST observation. You harped on the negative. Thats your problem, as always.It is what it is.
Nothing negative about it. It's just the reality of the GM position. This is exactly the kind of crap I'm talking about. What I said wasn't some happy-go-lucky idealistic vision of the team, so you and others accuse me of "harping on the negative."

I never said anything negative. I never said Gilmore isn't improving or that it's unlikely that he will do so. I simply pointed out the reality that a statement from the GM to the media doesn't necessarily make it so. It is what it is.

[justasportsfan]

Nothing negative about it. It's just the reality of the GM position. This is exactly the kind of crap I'm talking about. What I said wasn't some happy-go-lucky idealistic vision of the team, so you and others accuse me of "harping on the negative."

I never said anything negative. I never said Gilmore isn't improving or that it's unlikely that he will do so. I simply pointed out the reality that a statement from the GM to the media doesn't necessarily make it so. It is what it is.
you never mentioned he could be making an honest observation. It's not like he made an unrealistic observation. Like I said, he even said it was shorts practice.

[OpIv37]

you never mentioned he could be making an honest observation. It's not like he made an unrealistic observation. Like I said, he even said it was shorts practice.

And? I never said he was definitely lying either. I just said you can't trust what GM's say to the media. You people are acting like I said "Gilmore is the worst CB in the league and the only reason he got drafted is because he has pictures of Russ Brandon blowing Bill Bellicheck."

[justasportsfan]

And? I never said he was definitely lying either. I just said you can't trust what GM's say to the media. You people are acting like I said "Gilmore is the worst CB in the league and the only reason he got drafted is because he has pictures of Russ Brandon blowing Bill Bellicheck."

exactly, you harped on negative ONLY, therefore negative nancy.

[OpIv37]

exactly, you harped on negative ONLY, therefore negative nancy.

I didn't harp on anything- I just mentioned it. And it's not negative- it's just reality.

Anyway, even if it is, what difference does that make? Being negative about the team is still discussing the team. But too many people would rather discuss how "negative" they think I am rather than the actual team or the content of what I actually posted. The slightest hint of unpleasantness makes them short circuit and kills the conversation. It's infuriating. Lets be honest here: this team has sucked since this board has been in existence. There are a lot of unpleasant things to discuss. If you don't want unpleasantness and want to get on a high horse and complain about people being negative, go to the message board of a better team. But it's absurd to come to a board dedicated to a team as bad as the Bills and not expect to see a lot of "negativity."

[better days]

Lmao, the Bills WR group is Stevie, then a bunch of unproven guys in Graham and the rookies. Any talk of them being the best of anything is EXTREMELY premature.

We lost two vets- granted, mediocre vets- and replaced them with a bunch of unknowns. They could be great, or they could be James Hardy, Malcolm Kelly and Devin Thomas all over again. This is exactly the kind of crap I'm talking about. We have no proof whatsoever that the guys we added are better than the guys we lost, yet, you're already harping on me for not giving the Bills credit? Give me a ****ing break. OK, name the WRs on the other teams & tell us who is better than the unproven WRs the Bills have. NAME the AFC EAST TEAMS that have a better WR group than the Bills.

[mayotm]

nar·cis·sism
noun
1.
inordinate fascination with oneself; excessive self-love; vanity. Synonyms: self-centeredness, smugness, egocentrism.
2.
Psychoanalysis . erotic gratification derived from admiration of one's own physical or mental attributes, being a normal condition at the infantile level of personality development.

[OpIv37]

OK, name the WRs on the other teams & tell us who is better than the unproven WRs the Bills have. NAME the AFC EAST TEAMS that have a better WR group than the Bills.

For. The. Last. Time.

Outside of Stevie, our WR's have proven NOTHING. Absolutely NOTHING. We could easily be looking at Stevie and 4 complete busts. They may not even be as good as Jones and Nelson. Until they get on the field and do something, you cannot say we definitively upgraded the position.

You get all excited because we got a couple of rookies. You get all excited because some sportswriter says that we have the best WR's in the division without actually SEEING the guys play an NFL game yet (and for that matter, any bets that these same writers gave our WR's high pre-draft marks and are trying to justify them?) You are probably the least objective person on this board and you consistently overrate players that you like and players on the teams you like.

You refuse to consider even the possibility that the WR position wasn't upgraded and are satisfied with a bunch of unproven guys. Hell, we don't even know if they will all make the team.

This is exactly the kind of crap that drives me nuts. People find any slight shred of hope that the team might be better and go completely ape **** over it.

[justasportsfan]

This is exactly the kind of crap that drives me nuts. People find any slight shred of hope that the team might be better and go completely ape **** over it.

you're making this about you now? Oh wait you're making this about them?

[OpIv37]

nar·cis·sism
noun
1.
inordinate fascination with oneself; excessive self-love; vanity. Synonyms: self-centeredness, smugness, egocentrism.
2.
Psychoanalysis . erotic gratification derived from admiration of one's own physical or mental attributes, being a normal condition at the infantile level of personality development.
If this is aimed at me, it couldn't be more wrong. I just want to discuss the team, but too many other posters here insist on making it about my perceived "negativity."

[OpIv37]

If it's respect you want, then try not being such a douchebag.
Name calling. Nice.

I don't want respect- I just want to discuss the team honestly and realistically.

[mayotm]

If this is aimed at me, it couldn't be more wrong. I just want to discuss the team, but too many other posters here insist on making it about my perceived "negativity."Yes, it was most definitely aimed at you.

[OpIv37]

you're making this about you now? Oh wait you're making this about them?

You cut the last line out of a four paragraph post and then claim I'm making it all about me? Sorry one sentence out of 4 paragraphs is hardly making it all about me.

[OpIv37]

Yes, it was most definitely aimed at you.

Well, then you are dead wrong. I'm just trying to discuss the team honestly and realistically. Blame the people who insist on discussing my perceived "negativity", not me. I can't control how people react to reality.

[mayotm]

Well, then you are dead wrong. I'm just trying to discuss the team honestly and realistically. Blame the people who insist on discussing my perceived "negativity", not me. I can't control how people react to reality.Only a true narcissist wouldn't see that they are at least partially to blame.

[better days]

For. The. Last. Time.

Outside of Stevie, our WR's have proven NOTHING. Absolutely NOTHING. We could easily be looking at Stevie and 4 complete busts. They may not even be as good as Jones and Nelson. Until they get on the field and do something, you cannot say we definitively upgraded the position.

You get all excited because we got a couple of rookies. You get all excited because some sportswriter says that we have the best WR's in the division without actually SEEING the guys play an NFL game yet (and for that matter, any bets that these same writers gave our WR's high pre-draft marks and are trying to justify them?) You are probably the least objective person on this board and you consistently overrate players that you like and players on the teams you like.

You refuse to consider even the possibility that the WR position wasn't upgraded and are satisfied with a bunch of unproven guys. Hell, we don't even know if they will all make the team.

This is exactly the kind of crap that drives me nuts. People find any slight shred of hope that the team might be better and go completely ape **** over it.For. The. Last. Time. NAME other WRs from other teams in the AFC EAST & compare them to the unproven Bills WRs. PROVE to me there is a better WR group in the AFC East instead of telling us the Bills WR group is unproven so the other teams must be better. Even the Vet WRs the Fins have signed are UNPROVEN in Miami. They have never played in that heat with that QB, there is no proof they can catch the ball in that heat & humidity & hang on to it.

[justasportsfan]

You cut the last line out of a four paragraph post and then claim I'm making it all about me? Sorry one sentence out of 4 paragraphs is hardly making it all about me.
It is what it is.

[OpIv37]

Only a true narcissist wouldn't see that they are at least partially to blame.

Um, except that I admitted that I get caught up in the responses just a few posts ago. Oops. Better luck next time.

[OpIv37]

For. The. Last. Time. NAME other WRs from other teams in the AFC EAST & compare them to the unproven Bills WRs. PROVE to me there is a better WR group in the AFC East instead of telling us the Bills WR group is unproven so the other teams must be better. Even the Vet WRs the Fins have signed are UNPROVEN in Miami. They have never played in that heat with that QB, there is no proof they can catch the ball in that heat & humidity & hang on to it.
By definition, vets can't be unproven. Can't catch in heat and humidity? Get the **** out of here with that nonsense.

No one can prove if the Bills' WR's are better or not because they are UNPROVEN. That's what "unproven" means.

Me: They're unproven
you: prove it.

Do you have any idea how absurd that is?

[Captain Obvious]

This is exactly the kind of crap that drives me nuts. People find any slight shred of hope that the team might be better and go completely ape **** over it.

So it bugs you tremendously some Bills fans are excited about the potential and talent of a good young player like Stephon Gilmore. Get use to it bills are going to be singing the praisies of Gilmore for a few years

[better days]

By definition, vets can't be unproven. Can't catch in heat and humidity? Get the **** out of here with that nonsense.

No one can prove if the Bills' WR's are better or not because they are UNPROVEN. That's what "unproven" means.

Me: They're unproven
you: prove it.

Do you have any idea how absurd that is? Of course Vets can be unproven. Look at Chad Johnson when he went to the Pats* Everyone has to prove themselves when they go to that team. Chad was a PROVEN vet, yet he could not do squat with the Pats* in that system. He did not prove himself worthy. Do you understand what heat & humidity do to the human body? it causes the body to sweat, including the hands. That is FACT not nonsense. And I am asking you to name players that you think are better than the players the Bills have at WR. I don't know why that is absurd. Just because a guy is a rookie does not mean he can not be evaluated based on what he has shown in the past in College & at Camp.

[OpIv37]

So it bugs you tremendously some Bills fans are excited about the potential and talent of a good young player like Stephon Gilmore. Get use to it bills are going to be singing the praisies of Gilmore for a few years

Learn. reading. Comprehension.

That post was about the WR's and better days getting all excited about a completely unproven group.

And no, it doesn't bother me if people are excited about a player like Gilmore. It bothers me if they're excited about him because of some nonsense the GM fed the media. You want to be excited about players? Fine. Just have a logical reason for it.

[OpIv37]

That's a relief



That can have elements of subjectivity involved, couldn't it? I suggest that you develop some tolerance for contrary opinions...that would help make you less of a douchebag.

I think you patrol these boards waiting for opportunities to inform people that they are dead wrong, or to set them straight...and have a relentless need to be right. If you want to discuss the team, then drop this ridiculous thread and do THAT.

Isn't that basically what everyone does on a message board? What's the point of responding to a post just to say you agree? That's not discussion or compelling reading.

[swiper]

Lmao- a temper tantrum? It's no such thing. Some of you just can't understand the slightest bit of source scrutiny. You heard what you wanted to hear- end of story. Anyone who says something differently "hijacks" the thread or throws a "temper tantrum." This kind of reaction is pathetic and it has completely diluted the level of discourse on this site.

Ummm no. You're wrong again. I fully understand what I read and who said it. I, nor anyone else here, needs you to interpret it for us. You just think you do. Proving again that you are a legend in your own little mind.

If you'll go back and look at the original post again - I merely passed this along to the folks that come here. I didn't comment on it. So how exactly do you know anything about me (someone you don't know) or how I feel about what I read? Answer is: you don't. You're merely blathering on and on.

[OpIv37]

Of course Vets can be unproven. Look at Chad Johnson when he went to the Pats* Everyone has to prove themselves when they go to that team. Chad was a PROVEN vet, yet he could not do squat with the Pats* in that system. He did not prove himself worthy. Do you understand what heat & humidity do to the human body? it causes the body to sweat, including the hands. That is FACT not nonsense. And I am asking you to name players that you think are better than the players the Bills have at WR. I don't know why that is absurd. Just because a guy is a rookie does not mean he can not be evaluated based on what he has shown in the past in College & at Camp.
Wait- you said vets can be unproven, then you used Johnson as an example and say yourself that he's proven? What?

Chad Johnson wasn't unproven at all. Proven vets fail sometimes, but the likelihood is a lot less than completely unproven rookies or 2nd year players.

And it's ****ing 2013. Players have gloves with synthetic materials to keep their hands dry and towels and powder and all kinds of other crap. I've heard people talk about the wind or rain or snow affecting players but never humidity. You're really grasping at straws on that one.

And for the last time: the Bills players are UNPROVEN. I don't know who they are better than or worse than because I've never seen them play. And hell, you say Miami's players are unproven- so you are giving me two unknowns and asking me to rank them. That's a mathematical and logical impossibility.

Yet, somehow you are already convinced that we have the best WR's in the division. Please. You WANT us to have the best WR's in the div and you read a magazine predicting that we would, so that's all it takes for you to believe it. Proof be damned!

- - - Updated - - -


Ummm no. You're wrong again. I fully understand what I read and who said it. I, nor anyone else here, needs you to interpret it for us. You just think you do. Proving again that you are a legend in your own little mind.

You say you understand it. Your responses suggest otherwise.

[swiper]

For. The. Last. Time.

Outside of Stevie, our WR's have proven NOTHING. Absolutely NOTHING.


Again. I'm sure better days is better off that you informed him of this.

[Novacane]

For. The. Last. Time.

Outside of Stevie, our WR's have proven NOTHING. Absolutely NOTHING. We could easily be looking at Stevie and 4 complete busts. They may not even be as good as Jones and Nelson. Until they get on the field and do something, you cannot say we definitively upgraded the position.
.



Fair enough. Will you at least give them credit for addressing the position? Come on OP. Say something positive. I know you can do it!

[X-Era]

Stick to the TOS gentlemen.

I'll weigh in.

OP is right in that until a player is proven it really is nothing more than potential. Which is the same as a dollar and a dream. Us Bills fans have seen a plethora of examples of shoulda-been-greats throughout the years.

But I also think there is nothing wrong with projecting potential and making assumptions based on hope. It's the off-season and this is what we do this time of year. Personally, I'm really excited about the WR corp but I do agree that we have little real world data to support the excitement... I'll still do it anyway. I think these guys will be really good personally.

I also think we can't make too many claims about how great other teams WR corps are. Two examples. Do we have any data that shows Amendola is a stud when Brady throws to him? How about Mike Wallace for the Fins? We think those players will do well but theres no data yet to "know" that. Personally I think Wallace is overrated and won't be as productive as the Fins hope. I do think Amendola will do well but thats most likely the case for anyone that Brady throws to.

As for Gilmore, he got better and better. I already think he's solid. And if he tops out at just that I'd be happy. But I think he will become one of the best in the division.

[OpIv37]

Fair enough. Will you at least give them credit for addressing the position? Come on OP. Say something positive. I know you can do it!

Credit for what? They cut two vets and drafted WR's, which means we lost the opportunity to draft players at other positions of need. If the WR's are good, that becomes irrelevant, but I will give them credit if and only if it is proven on the field that they made the right choice.

Credit for drafting guys that haven't even played yet? Seriously?

[OpIv37]

Again. I'm sure better days is better off that you informed him of this.

Probably not. He's already convinced that our rookies who haven't played a down in the NFL are the best WR's in the division.

[better days]

Wait- you said vets can be unproven, then you used Johnson as an example and say yourself that he's proven? What?

Chad Johnson wasn't unproven at all. Proven vets fail sometimes, but the likelihood is a lot less than completely unproven rookies or 2nd year players.

And it's ****ing 2013. Players have gloves with synthetic materials to keep their hands dry and towels and powder and all kinds of other crap. I've heard people talk about the wind or rain or snow affecting players but never humidity. You're really grasping at straws on that one.

And for the last time: the Bills players are UNPROVEN. I don't know who they are better than or worse than because I've never seen them play. And hell, you say Miami's players are unproven- so you are giving me two unknowns and asking me to rank them. That's a mathematical and logical impossibility.

Yet, somehow you are already convinced that we have the best WR's in the division. Please. You WANT us to have the best WR's in the div and you read a magazine predicting that we would, so that's all it takes for you to believe it. Proof be damned!

- - - Updated - - -



You say you understand it. Your responses suggest otherwise. I should have put quotation marks around proven I guess. I said Ocho was a proven Vet because YOU said Vets are proven. In fact, I have heard Vets say they have to prove themselves EVERY year.
It is NOT impossible to evaluate players, even rookies. Before the Season starts, there will be a draft for people that play fantasy football. Everyone that does that will have to evaluate ALL the players in the NFL & draft players for their fantasy team. The Bills evaluated Jones & Nelson & decided the team would be better off without them. Just as the Bills decided unproven Rookies were more likely to be BETTER than Jones or Nelson, I'm sure some people will EVALUATE the Rookies & decide to draft them for their fantasy team rather than the "proven" Jones & Nelson. And SHOW us some proof that the Bills don't have the best WRs in the division. If another team has 3 WRs that made the Pro Bowl last year for example, that would be pretty good proof, but NO team in this division has that. Now you are saying the Bills have unproven WRs, but when Jones & Nelson were cut, you were *****ing that now the Bills have nobody. EVERYONE including you KNEW that the Bills would replace Jones & Nelson, but you *****ED about the fact they were let go. If the Bills had kept them, you would have *****ED that the Bills keep MEDIOCRE players they should have let go.

[OpIv37]

Yes, and clearly we should trust the Bills' evaluation skills because they has proven themselves so adept at it. :rolleyes:

Stop and think about this: if the Bills are so good at evaluating WR's, how did we end up with Jones and Nelson as #2 and #3?

[trapezeus]

OP, you need to understand...the reason its so optimistic is because we changed everything....by changing absolutely nothing. Same evaluators, same leaders, same owner, different paint job.

That being said, i'm a bit optimistic simply because the playres and coaches are different and manuel sounds like he gets the responsibility of being a QB with the tools. Of course i won't be surprised if it turns out like so many other years, but i will be banging the war drum if fate has finally given us a sustained reason to billieve.

[better days]

Yes, and clearly we should trust the Bills' evaluation skills because they has proven themselves so adept at it. :rolleyes:

Stop and think about this: if the Bills are so good at evaluating WR's, how did we end up with Jones and Nelson as #2 and #3? Well, Nelson was a pretty good WR but he has a serious injury. If he were healthy last year, the team would have been better for it. The Bills decided to DUMP both of them this off season, so I trust the people making the evaluations NOW. But my real point is not about the Bills WR group or who does the evaluations & how well or poorly they do them. My point is you will ***** no matter what. You *****ed because the Bills cut Jones & Nelson & as I have said I have no doubt that you would have *****ed if the Bills had kept them. You would have said "well here we go again, the Bills accepting mediocrity."

[OpIv37]

Well, Nelson was a pretty good WR but he has a serious injury. If he were healthy last year, the team would have been better for it. The Bills decided to DUMP both of them this off season, so I trust the people making the evaluations NOW. But my real point is not about the Bills WR group or who does the evaluations & how well or poorly they do them. My point is you will ***** no matter what. You *****ed because the Bills cut Jones & Nelson & as I have said I have no doubt that you would have *****ed if the Bills had kept them. You would have said "well here we go again, the Bills accepting mediocrity."

Well, first, it's absurd to make an argument based on your assumption of what someone would have done in a hypothetical situation that never actually happened. It's not the first time you've done it, though, and I'm sure it won't be the last.

Second, the WR position needs to be improved, especially with a rookie QB who will eventually be starting- if not week 1, probably by the end of the year and certainly by next year. As a fan of the team who wants the team to win, of course I'm going to ***** until the position is improved. The flaw in your logic is that we don't know if the position is improved- all we know is that we replaced Jones and Nelson with the unproven Graham and a handful of rookies. And it comes with the added problem of giving either our rookie QB our our mediocre vet who is learning a new system a bunch of inexperienced WR's to throw to (behind Stevie, of course).

Did Nelson and Jones need to be upgraded? Yes
Did we upgrade the position? Maybe- it depends on how Graham and the rookies do
Is using rookie WR's with a rookie QB and a new system the best way to upgrade the position? I hope so but I highly doubt it.

That's what you refuse to see. And you're making it about whether or not I "*****ed" and not whether or not we sufficiently upgraded the position.

[DraftBoy]

What assumption did I make about Dareus? Players need to practice to get better, especially those who underperform. Dareus underperformed last year and missed at least part of the mini-camp. I never said he didn't have a reason for it because it doesn't matter. The CBA only allows so many practice opportunities and for whatever reason he missed one of those limited opportunities. No assumptions there whatsoever.

And you're the one who said guys are taking it easy in practice, not me. That's your assumption, not mine.

He never missed minicamp. Let's at least be accurate in our statements.

Again accuracy is key, I did not say guys take it easy, I said veterans who have openly spoken about taking camp easy and there are many both active and retired who have spoken about this. Let's not act naive.

[better days]

Well, first, it's absurd to make an argument based on your assumption of what someone would have done in a hypothetical situation that never actually happened. It's not the first time you've done it, though, and I'm sure it won't be the last.

Second, the WR position needs to be improved, especially with a rookie QB who will eventually be starting- if not week 1, probably by the end of the year and certainly by next year. As a fan of the team who wants the team to win, of course I'm going to ***** until the position is improved. The flaw in your logic is that we don't know if the position is improved- all we know is that we replaced Jones and Nelson with the unproven Graham and a handful of rookies. And it comes with the added problem of giving either our rookie QB our our mediocre vet who is learning a new system a bunch of inexperienced WR's to throw to (behind Stevie, of course).

Did Nelson and Jones need to be upgraded? Yes
Did we upgrade the position? Maybe- it depends on how Graham and the rookies do
Is using rookie WR's with a rookie QB and a new system the best way to upgrade the position? I hope so but I highly doubt it.

That's what you refuse to see. And you're making it about whether or not I "*****ed" and not whether or not we sufficiently upgraded the position.

My original post was about you *****ing. Sometimes you make a good point, but often you ***** just for the sake of *****ing.

Time will tell how much the WR position has been upgraded, but by all accounts the Rookies have looked good so far as have the QBs.

I doubt it all comes together this year, but I expect this team to win at least 6 games this season if the Coaching is decent.

[Novacane]

Credit for what? They cut two vets and drafted WR's, which means we lost the opportunity to draft players at other positions of need. If the WR's are good, that becomes irrelevant, but I will give them credit if and only if it is proven on the field that they made the right choice.

Credit for drafting guys that haven't even played yet? Seriously?
LMAO I knew it. You'd ***** they hadn't addressed a problem if they hadn't picked up any WR. You just like to ***** no matter what you say. And *****ing about them cutting guys who did nothing who you didn't even like. You don't even realize what a joke your post are do you?

[OpIv37]

LMAO I knew it. You'd ***** they hadn't addressed a problem if they hadn't picked up any WR. You just like to ***** no matter what you say.

Once again, it's absurd to make an argument based on your assumption of how someone would have reacted in a hypothetical situation that never actually occurred. It's amazing how many times I have to type that sentence on this site.

And once again, the point is to UPGRADE the position. We do not know if the position has been upgraded. If you look at the last 13 years, the one thing the Bills have done pretty well is cut dead weight (well, with the exception of Chris Kelsay). However, they have consistently failed at replacing that dead weight with someone better, or often times, even someone equal. You want to give them credit for simply "addressing" the position. That's meaningless. I'll give them credit if and only if they addressed the position SUFFICIENTLY, and we don't know that yet.

[Novacane]

My original post was about you *****ing. Sometimes you make a good point, but often you ***** just for the sake of *****ing.

Time will tell how much the WR position has been upgraded, but by all accounts the Rookies have looked good so far as have the QBs.

I doubt it all comes together this year, but I expect this team to win at least 6 games this season if the Coaching is decent.




NO they haven't. It's just Whaley and Marone blowing smoke to sell tickets.

[OpIv37]

NO they haven't. It's just Whaley and Marone blowing smoke to sell tickets.

If the rookies looked terrible, do you honestly think Whaley and Marrone would say that to the media? Please.

[Novacane]

Once again, it's absurd to make an argument based on your assumption of how someone would have reacted in a hypothetical situation that never actually occurred. It's amazing how many times I have to type that sentence on this site.

And once again, the point is to UPGRADE the position. We do not know if the position has been upgraded. If you look at the last 13 years, the one thing the Bills have done pretty well is cut dead weight (well, with the exception of Chris Kelsay). However, they have consistently failed at replacing that dead weight with someone better, or often times, even someone equal. You want to give them credit for simply "addressing" the position. That's meaningless. I'll give them credit if and only if they addressed the position SUFFICIENTLY, and we don't know that yet.


No Sh#t! But there's potential. I know that means nothing till it's proven on the field but I'll take my chances on potential vs the proven crap we had last year. You won't even say that. If they flame out I'll be right there with you saying Buddy blew it again.

[Novacane]

OP.......are you really *****ing that they let Jones and Nelson go? Seriously?

[OpIv37]

No Sh#t! But there's potential. I know that means nothing till it's proven on the field but I'll take my chances on potential vs the proven crap we had last year. You won't even say that. If they flame out I'll be right there with you saying Buddy blew it again.

I have two problems with the "potential."

First, this team has had a LOT of potential over the years that went unrealized. Is potential greatness better than established mediocrity? I guess so, but potential greatness is also potential failure.

Second, we have a rookie QB and a mediocre vet learning a new system. It would have been nice if they could have added at least one vet WR alongside Stevie to try to make the transition easier. All these guys are really getting thrown to the wolves.

[better days]

NO they haven't. It's just Whaley and Marone blowing smoke to sell tickets.

The practices have been OPEN to ALL the media. Everything I have read & heard has been positive.

- - - Updated - - -

[Novacane]

The practices have been OPEN to ALL the media. Everything I have read & heard has been positive.

- - - Updated - - -




I know. I was being sarcastic.

[Novacane]

I have two problems with the "potential."

First, this team has had a LOT of potential over the years that went unrealized. Is potential greatness better than established mediocrity? I guess so, but potential greatness is also potential failure.

Second, we have a rookie QB and a mediocre vet learning a new system. It would have been nice if they could have added at least one vet WR alongside Stevie to try to make the transition easier. All these guys are really getting thrown to the wolves.



What vet receiver would you have liked them to add that might have made a difference this season?

[swiper]

What vet receiver would you have liked them to add that might have made a difference this season?

Dwayne Bowe

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Dwayne Bowe

Bowe never hit free agency, he signed on March 4.