why do people act like signing byrd is a matter or will and not a matter of math...??

[NOT THE DUDE...]

I don't get it? do people realize we have a salary cap, and we cant resign everyone we want?

[BillsFever21]

Everyone realizes that but that means that you keep your best players and especially one of the guys who has proven he is one of the top players in the league at his position. It's not like this team has a ton of proven talent.

We hear this from almost the same crowd every single time. Then when the next guy comes up for free agency they use the same excuses even though we supposedly couldn't sign the other guys because we had to save the money for them. But I'm sure we have at least 3 guys that can step in and play at his level already on the roster and another couple more guys that we will bring in for camp fodder. Just like with Levitre and the guard spot.

We can find cap room to keep proven bums like McKelvin around and sign other marginal players for several million or so a season but we can't find the money to keep one of the best proven safeties in the league? Give me a break. If that's the case then the front office is even worse then they have already proven to be.

It boggles my mind that many of the same people who think that keeping McKelvin for 4 million dollars a year is a good deal but keeping a top 3 safety in the NFL at 8 million or so a year isn't. You can't build a winning team for the long haul without keeping your best talented players.

[Albany,n.y.]

I don't get it? do people realize we have a salary cap, and we cant resign everyone we want?
If the team feels this way, then why would they franchise him in what is basically a rebuilding year? They either have to sign him to a market value contract or let him walk. It makes no sense to keep the franchise tag on him unless they are willing to pay him.

[EDS]

I don't get it? do people realize we have a salary cap, and we cant resign everyone we want?

Realistically, if a team like the Bills with so few established veteran players can't afford to fit a guy like Byrd in under the cap then someone has completely bungled the teams finances and that someone should be terminated immediately.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Guys, guys. I'm absolutely sure Not The Dude put in the work to show us how signing Byrd will cripple our salary cap in the future. We just have to wait for him to post it.

C'mon NTD, don't let me down here.

[BillsFever21]

Guys, guys. I'm absolutely sure Not The Dude put in the work to show us how signing Byrd will cripple our salary cap in the future. We just have to wait for him to post it.

C'mon NTD, don't let me down here.

He will also have the list of names of at least 5 names that will be in camp that will be able to fill in for his spot and not miss a beat. Aaron Williams is probably number one on that list.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

you have to be wise from a football perspective. pass rushers, qbs, ots, and wrs are worth the big bucks. that's simply a fact. the steelers and packers have always let big names go unless they are huge at one of those 1st 3 positions. byrd in reality probably wants 10 mil a year. with wood, Carrington, spiller, hairston, glenn wanting a new deal, etc I would not put that much money into a safety. its an opinion, but most people with real nfl experience will side with me. again, there is only so much money to go around, and id rather put those resources towards the players I mentioned than a free safety that is average at best vs the run, and gets 4-5 picks a year. if you give byrd 10 mil, then you probably lose 2 of those other guys. to me, that's just dumb. I can understand if it was stevie or wood, or glenn or Mario, not a ****ing fs...

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the math just doesn't work paying a fs 10 mil a year

there is no question that seeing whaley come from that background in pitt, he has probably offered 7 mil a year, ( which is what byrd is worth). if he doesn't like it, we will trade him... I have full confidence in the safeties we have. its not a hard spot to play compared to getting real production out of other positions. as stated in the thread, I would put money on aaron Williams getting 6 picks with this pass rush...

[BillsFever21]

you have to be wise from a football perspective. pass rushers, qbs, ots, and wrs are worth the big bucks. that's simply a fact. the steelers and packers have always let big names go unless they are huge at one of those 1st 3 positions. byrd in reality probably wants 10 mil a year. with wood, Carrington, spiller, hairston, glenn wanting a new deal, etc I would not put that much money into a safety. its an opinion, but most people with real nfl experience will side with me. again, there is only so much money to go around, and id rather put those resources towards the players I mentioned than a free safety that is average at best vs the run, and gets 4-5 picks a year. if you give byrd 10 mil, then you probably lose 2 of those other guys. to me, that's just dumb. I can understand if it was stevie or wood, or glenn or Mario, not a ****ing fs...

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the math just doesn't work paying a fs 10 mil a year

I wonder how Tory Polamalu has been with the Steelers so long if they would never sign a safety? The NFL should look into that. The Steelers pulled one over on the entire league. It was a horrible move by the Ravens to keep Ed Reed all of them years too. You keep you playmakers period. Them are the people who changes games.

If you don't want to keep a playmaker like Byrd because you're worried about keeping guys like Carrington and Hairston then that's just laughable. Neither of them are dominant players at their position and each one could be easily replaced. Carrington has never even cracked the starting lineup on a regular basis yet and neither of them are special. Decent player but not guys you worry about saving money for and neither would cost much money.

As far as Wood and Spiller goes that's still TBD. Wood has been a good player but has yet to prove he can stay healthy. If he gets hurt again this year then it's pretty hard to give him a big contract. Spiller is awesome and one of my favorite players but the fact is the RB position is the one position that is the easiest to replace in the NFL today if you had to. Especially if you're in a good offensive system. Good teams find RB's anywhere and they also have the shortest shelf life in the NFL.

And I'm sure in a year or two you will be saying we need to save the money to sign guys like Gilmore, Alonso, Da'Rick Rodgers, Woods, Dareus, etc. There will always be another group of younger guys coming up for free agency. To lump Carrington and Hairston in with the "must keep" group is just laughable though.

[BillsFever21]

there is no question that seeing whaley come from that background in pitt, he has probably offered 7 mil a year, ( which is what byrd is worth). if he doesn't like it, we will trade him... I have full confidence in the safeties we have. its not a hard spot to play compared to getting real production out of other positions. as stated in the thread, I would put money on aaron Williams getting 6 picks with this pass rush...

:roflmao:

Here we go again with the next two or three people in line are great players and can easily replace anyone on the team. Maybe IF he was lucky enough to get six interceptions I wonder if that would make up for the 6 TD's he gives up during the season and the many more bad plays that lead to other points.

A lot of guys can have interceptions in a season if they are in the right place at the right time. The good guys do it consistently and can cover their guys like Byrd has proven he can do. He also forces a lot of fumbles. The guy is a playmaker and you just don't let them guys walk if you have a choice. Especially on a team without many to begin with. I know it's no big deal though because Aaron Williams and the next three guys on the depth chart is just as good.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

you have to be wise from a football perspective. pass rushers, qbs, ots, and wrs are worth the big bucks. that's simply a fact. the steelers and packers have always let big names go unless they are huge at one of those 1st 3 positions.

To add on to what Billsfever said, both the Steelers and Packers let big name wideouts leave just this year because they didn't think they were worth the bigtime contracts.


byrd in reality probably wants 10 mil a year.

According to Kelso on WGR, he wants 9. Do you have a source for this claim he wants 10?


with wood, Carrington, spiller, hairston, glenn wanting a new deal, etc I would not put that much money into a safety. its an opinion, but most people with real nfl experience will side with me.

So you claim only QBs, pass rushers, OTs, and wideouts are worth big bucks and promptly list: A center, a backup DT/DE, a halfback, a backup RT, and our left tackle.

So only one of those guys, by your own standard, is worthy of the bigtime contract.

[BillsFever21]

Didn't the Steelers just like Mike Wallace leave along with Santonio Holmes a few years before that? At least get your facts straight if you're going to talk about the Packers and Steelers.

I also just remember the Packers giving Clay Matthews a huge contract. Last time I checked he isn't a QB, OT or WR. Just like Illuminatus said they also let their top WR's walk too.

As he also mentioned, I love the list you came up with. They don't even meet your criteria. But hey we can keep rotational DL in Carrington instead of Byrd if you were the GM. We can throw in another mid level player and pay the both of them around 4 million a year each instead of paying a top player 8 million. That's usually been the strategy of the Bills for years now and we see how well that has worked for us.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

Didn't the Steelers just like Mike Wallace leave along with Santonio Holmes a few years before that? At least get your facts straight if you're going to talk about the Packers and Steelers.

I also just remember the Packers giving Clay Matthews a huge contract. Last time I checked he isn't a QB, OT or WR. Just like Illuminatus said they also let their top WR's walk too.

As he also mentioned, I love the list you came up with. They don't even meet your criteria. But hey we can keep rotational DL in Carrington instead of Byrd if you were the GM. We can throw in another mid level player and pay the both of them around 4 million a year each instead of paying a top player 8 million. That's usually been the strategy of the Bills for years now and we see how well that has worked for us.

so basically, im correct about the packers and steelers, and then you say im wrong. ill be intellectually honest. Carrington is still developing, but pff said he could be a superstar based on his limited snap in the " secret superstar" article. I think the main part we don't agree on is not him being a top player at his position, rather his positional value. im sorry, but hes simply playing a position that is fairly easy to replace. again, its not wise to spend that much on a safety, just like its not wise to spend 8 mil a year on a guard with a bad knee nonetheless

[NOT THE DUDE...]

I wonder how Tory Polamalu has been with the Steelers so long if they would never sign a safety? The NFL should look into that. The Steelers pulled one over on the entire league. It was a horrible move by the Ravens to keep Ed Reed all of them years too. You keep you playmakers period. Them are the people who changes games.

If you don't want to keep a playmaker like Byrd because you're worried about keeping guys like Carrington and Hairston then that's just laughable. Neither of them are dominant players at their position and each one could be easily replaced. Carrington has never even cracked the starting lineup on a regular basis yet and neither of them are special. Decent player but not guys you worry about saving money for and neither would cost much money.

As far as Wood and Spiller goes that's still TBD. Wood has been a good player but has yet to prove he can stay healthy. If he gets hurt again this year then it's pretty hard to give him a big contract. Spiller is awesome and one of my favorite players but the fact is the RB position is the one position that is the easiest to replace in the NFL today if you had to. Especially if you're in a good offensive system. Good teams find RB's anywhere and they also have the shortest shelf life in the NFL.

And I'm sure in a year or two you will be saying we need to save the money to sign guys like Gilmore, Alonso, Da'Rick Rodgers, Woods, Dareus, etc. There will always be another group of younger guys coming up for free agency. To lump Carrington and Hairston in with the "must keep" group is just laughable though.

when you compare byrd and ed reed/polamalu, well, lets just say you're delusional...

you are also ignorant about hairston. hairston is developing into fine pass blocker at rt, and already is incredibly dominant run blocker. again, your football knowledge is laughable. a person like you would have paid levitre 10 mil per and let hairston walk. dumb as ****

[NOT THE DUDE...]

To add on to what Billsfever said, both the Steelers and Packers let big name wideouts leave just this year because they didn't think they were worth the bigtime contracts.



According to Kelso on WGR, he wants 9. Do you have a source for this claim he wants 10?



So you claim only QBs, pass rushers, OTs, and wideouts are worth big bucks and promptly list: A center, a backup DT/DE, a halfback, a backup RT, and our left tackle.

So only one of those guys, by your own standard, is worthy of the bigtime contract.

you are not looking long term, and not understanding the blueprint of building a team in the here and now with a salary cap. this isn't 1985.... you can easily draft a replacement at safety. e.g., of course matt elam for the ravens wont be as good as reed, but I bet a million dollars he will make a nice impact and get 5 picks or so... making the ravens still competitive. its a big mans league with qb being the most important spot. just ask polian

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:roflmao:

Here we go again with the next two or three people in line are great players and can easily replace anyone on the team. Maybe IF he was lucky enough to get six interceptions I wonder if that would make up for the
6 TD's he gives up during the season and the many more bad plays that lead to other points.

A lot of guys can have interceptions in a season if they are in the right place at the right time. The good guys do it consistently and can cover their guys like Byrd has proven he can do. He also forces a lot of fumbles. The guy is a playmaker and you just don't let them guys walk if you have a choice. Especially on a team without many to begin with. I know it's no big deal though because Aaron Williams and the next three guys on the depth chart is just as good.

at corner... get your facts straight

[BillsFever21]

so basically, im correct about the packers and steelers, and then you say im wrong. ill be intellectually honest. Carrington is still developing, but pff said he could be a superstar based on his limited snap in the " secret superstar" article. I think the main part we don't agree on is not him being a top player at his position, rather his positional value. im sorry, but hes simply playing a position that is fairly easy to replace. again, its not wise to spend that much on a safety, just like its not wise to spend 8 mil a year on a guard with a bad knee nonetheless

Nope. How are you saying you were correct on the Steelers and Packers? You said the Steelers and Packers only give big money to QB's, OT's and WR's. Well they obviously don't since they have elected to let Mike Wallace and Santonio Holmes walk along with the Packers letting their WR's go. Then at the same time you list a center, RB and others that don't even apply to your criteria as must keep players. You openly contradicted yourself. What part of that is too hard for you to comprehend?

As far as Byrd goes I never said they were as good as Palamalu or Reed. Them two are a couple of the best safeties of all time. He is one of the best in the league today though. Furthermore that also disproves your point that the Steelers are smart enough to only spend big money on QB's, OT's and WR's. If that's the case then they would've felt Palamalu wasn't worth that money years ago since it's another position that is "easily" replaceable.

If you're sitting there saying that Hairston and Carrington has more value and is a better player then Byrd then you are the delusional one yet again. I'm sure you also said the same thing about Demetrius Bell a couple years ago.

[BillsFever21]

you are not looking long term, and not understanding the blueprint of building a team in the here and now with a salary cap. this isn't 1985.... you can easily draft a replacement at safety. e.g., of course matt elam for the ravens wont be as good as reed, but I bet a million dollars he will make a nice impact and get 5 picks or so... making the ravens still competitive. its a big mans league with qb being the most important spot. just ask polian

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at corner... get your facts straight

That's right I forgot to put a NFD disclaimer on it. Now that he failed miserably at CB and needs to be moved to safety he is automatically going to become a top notch safety. We also can't forget his awesome "versatility" that he now possess after playing both positions.

[BillsFever21]

you are also ignorant about hairston. hairston is developing into fine pass blocker at rt, and already is incredibly dominant run blocker. again, your football knowledge is laughable. a person like you would have paid levitre 10 mil per and let hairston walk. dumb as ****

So now Hairston is a dominant OT too? What player isn't a dominant player. You are the type who thinks every player is great when they are on the team but when they are either no longer here or may not be here any longer they are automatically a bum.

The guy who says Tim Tebow can play LB because he made a tackle on ST's doesn't have any room to question any poster's knowledge of football. A guy who acts like everyone on the depth chart is starting material by reading an article about OTA's doesn't have any room to question any poster's knowledge of football either. You act like you are Vince Lombardi yet you are the biggest troll and laughing stock of the board.

[BillsFever21]

Guys, guys. I'm absolutely sure Not The Dude put in the work to show us how signing Byrd will cripple our salary cap in the future. We just have to wait for him to post it.

C'mon NTD, don't let me down here.

The guy who says we can't afford to keep everybody(which is obvious) is also the guy who wants to re-sign just about everybody coming up in FA over the next two years. Whether they are average OT's, rotational DL, centers, RB's, etc. All this when the only guys you should pay is QB, OT, DL and WR in the NFL today.

[Parzival]

If the Bills don't resign Byrd...well my moratorium on buying anything Bills related will continue. Not much else to do.

i just don't understand what strategy (besides saving money) the Bills FO could possibly be utilizing if they let the few players they hit on in the draft walk. Wasn't Buddy's whole thing building through the draft? Well hello, if you only keep the mediocre players you're going to field a mediocre team!

Please, for once just do the thing all the fans want you to do, Bills FO, and resign one of the best players on the team.

[Pinkerton Security]

your football knowledge is laughable.

WAIT WAIT WAIT....this statement, coming from a person who said Da'rick Rogers is a more explosive version of Julio Jones, and that Marquise is a young Joey Galloway, and compared Robert Woods to Andre Reed.

You are either the biggest idiot ever, or you are just a giant troll. OR both. Please explain where you got all of your "football knowledge", from the interwebz and playing Madden?? lol

[IlluminatusUIUC]

you are not looking long term, and not understanding the blueprint of building a team in the here and now with a salary cap. this isn't 1985.... you can easily draft a replacement at safety. e.g., of course matt elam for the ravens wont be as good as reed, but I bet a million dollars he will make a nice impact and get 5 picks or so... making the ravens still competitive. its a big mans league with qb being the most important spot. just ask polian

They "easily" drafted a replacement free safety with their first round pick. The Ravens clearly considered the FS spot so significant they threw millions upon millions at Reed to get him to stay all those years, and then when he had to walk over his age they drafted his replacement the first chance they got.

Your own examples contradict the point you are trying to make here.

Secondly, I called you out for not actually doing any of the "long-term" thinking that you claim I'm not doing. I have done it, I started a thread on the cap just this offseason. (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/217205-Levitre-amp-Byrd-by-the-numbers)

Now that was me attempting to fit both Byrd and Levitre under the cap, so with Levitre (and Kelsay and Fitz) gone our job is actually easier.

The part you keep forgetting when moaning about all the guys we have to sign in the future is that other players' contracts arecoming off the books every year too. Fred Jackson's contract expires in after 2014 and there is no chance whatsoever that he gets a contract anywhere near what he got last time. He may even retire. Kolb's contract comes off the books then too, allowing us to go cheaper on the backup if Manuel has established himself as the starter or Tuel has taken his backup job. Arthur Moats has one year left on his deal and many not come back, etc etc etc. Alan Branch is on a one year deal. Anderson could be dumped next year to save cap if he doesn't get back to form. On and on like that.

And on top of that, the cap is likely to continue increasing. And on top of THAT, we can still roll cap over or restructure contracts to save room.

The money is there to sign Byrd. That's not a question.

What is in question is taking positional value way, way too far. Yes, all told a QB is more important than a Free Safety. But that doesn't mean EVERY safety is worse than EVERY qb and it's ridiculous to say so. Byrd is a multiple all-pro. Hairston is a backup tackle who hasn't been able to steal a starting position from Erik Pears. the suggestion that we should let an All-Pro go to avoid losing a backup is so absurd that it has to be trolling. I mean, do you think the 49ers are sitting around a table asking "Should we let Mike Iupati walk? Otherwise we can't re-sign Scott Tolzien!!!!"

[NOT THE DUDE...]

If the Bills don't resign Byrd...well my moratorium on buying anything Bills related will continue. Not much else to do.

i just don't understand what strategy (besides saving money) the Bills FO could possibly be utilizing if they let the few players they hit on in the draft walk. Wasn't Buddy's whole thing building through the draft? Well hello, if you only keep the mediocre players you're going to field a mediocre team!

Please, for once just do the thing all the fans want you to do, Bills FO, and resign one of the best players on the team.

they cant save money, as the new union deal makes each team spend up to 95% of the cap. it was part of the new rookie contracts deal... again, its priority and math

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WAIT WAIT WAIT....this statement, coming from a person who said Da'rick Rogers is a more explosive version of Julio Jones, and that Marquise is a young Joey Galloway, and compared Robert Woods to Andre Reed.

You are either the biggest idiot ever, or you are just a giant troll. OR both. Please explain where you got all of your "football knowledge", from the interwebz and playing Madden?? lol

I didn't say Julio jones, cbs sports did.... and I said Goodwin has a skill set like Galloway, not that he will be like Galloway. but good try

[NOT THE DUDE...]

They "easily" drafted a replacement free safety with their first round pick. The Ravens clearly considered the FS spot so significant they threw millions upon millions at Reed to get him to stay all those years, and then when he had to walk over his age they drafted his replacement the first chance they got.

Your own examples contradict the point you are trying to make here.

Secondly, I called you out for not actually doing any of the "long-term" thinking that you claim I'm not doing. I have done it, I started a thread on the cap just this offseason. (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/217205-Levitre-amp-Byrd-by-the-numbers)

Now that was me attempting to fit both Byrd and Levitre under the cap, so with Levitre (and Kelsay and Fitz) gone our job is actually easier.

The part you keep forgetting when moaning about all the guys we have to sign in the future is that other players' contracts arecoming off the books every year too. Fred Jackson's contract expires in after 2014 and there is no chance whatsoever that he gets a contract anywhere near what he got last time. He may even retire. Kolb's contract comes off the books then too, allowing us to go cheaper on the backup if Manuel has established himself as the starter or Tuel has taken his backup job. Arthur Moats has one year left on his deal and many not come back, etc etc etc. Alan Branch is on a one year deal. Anderson could be dumped next year to save cap if he doesn't get back to form. On and on like that.

And on top of that, the cap is likely to continue increasing. And on top of THAT, we can still roll cap over or restructure contracts to save room.

The money is there to sign Byrd. That's not a question.

What is in question is taking positional value way, way too far. Yes, all told a QB is more important than a Free Safety. But that doesn't mean EVERY safety is worse than EVERY qb and it's ridiculous to say so. Byrd is a multiple all-pro. Hairston is a backup tackle who hasn't been able to steal a starting position from Erik Pears. the suggestion that we should let an All-Pro go to avoid losing a backup is so absurd that it has to be trolling. I mean, do you think the 49ers are sitting around a table asking "Should we let Mike Iupati walk? Otherwise we can't re-sign Scott Tolzien!!!!"

except hairston was the starter last year... hmmm... secondly, what does that tell you about byrd still holding out when we have all this cap room? if the bills have cap room, and they do, then what is byrd really asking? ive said months ago, im ok with a kam chancellor deal, but he wants way more than that. I don't think its at all unrealistic that even the " 2mil apart" is bs, and its probably more like 3 or 4 mil apart. again, an absurd amount for a fs unless the guy is a ed reed. and I never said the position was not important as if we can have raion hill back there. I said its fairly easy to replace. the bills drafted aaron Williams with him switching to safety in mind. again, you are putting up a straw man, and looking more and more ignorant about how to build a team, let alone the up and coming talent we have on our current roster.

not to mention the ignorance on hairston is mind boggling. the guy is one of the best run blockers in the league. and has gotten better in pass protection each year. hes a future pro bowler, and im not trading young talent away like that for a fs who cant defend the run.

not to mention wood, glenn, Carrington, possibly hughes as a breakout player, spiller. although spiller will be a strange spot because he will be 28 and his contract can only be based on how good he will be the next couple years, and not how good he was in the past. as rb probably has the lowest positional value. and AGAIN, I never compared positional value with backups, ie a starter vs a " clear " backup at another position. ANOTHER STRAWMAN

[IlluminatusUIUC]

except hairston was the starter last year... hmmm...

Except he still wasn't, no matter how many times you say it. The opening day starters were Glenn-Levitre-Wood-Urbik-Pears
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201209090nyj.htm

Hairston started in games for Glenn:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201210070sfo.htm

And then took over for Pears when Pears was injured:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201211250clt.htm

But he was not the starter. He's a backup who subbed in for injuries. Do you know the difference?


secondly, what does that tell you about byrd still holding out when we have all this cap room? if the bills have cap room, and they do, then what is byrd really asking? ive said months ago, im ok with a kam chancellor deal, but he wants way more than that. I don't think its at all unrealistic that even the " 2mil apart" is bs, and its probably more like 3 or 4 mil apart.

It tells me that the Bills are lowballing him because they have the franchise tag as leverage.


the bills drafted aaron Williams with him switching to safety in mind.

Of course they did, that's why they played him at cornerback for two solid seasons. And said things like this:
http://blogs.buffalobills.com/2011/05/10/cb-williams-will-push-to-start/

According to Bills GM Buddy Nix, Williams will push for one of the two starting cornerback jobs, and if he doesn’t land that he anticipates Williams stands a very good chance of being the team’s nickel corner.

“We’re going to put them out there and play the best two at corner, put the next guy in the slot in nickel,” said Nix with respect to the competition that will ensue at cornerback when players report.

So now that he's a bust at corner, they try to salvage him at safety and NTD claims it was the plan all along. LMFAO.



looking more and more ignorant about how to build a team, let alone the up and coming talent we have on our current roster.

And you are once again fluffing bums that have accomplished little or nothing, and pitching them as replacements for a multiple all-pro.

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not to mention the ignorance on hairston is mind boggling. the guy is one of the best run blockers in the league. and has gotten better in pass protection each year. hes a future pro bowler, and im not trading young talent away like that for a fs who cant defend the run.

And Jairus Byrd is a current Pro Bowler.

[Pinkerton Security]

they cant save money, as the new union deal makes each team spend up to 95% of the cap. it was part of the new rookie contracts deal... again, its priority and math

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I didn't say Julio jones, cbs sports did.... and I said Goodwin has a skill set like Galloway, not that he will be like Galloway. but good try

keep thinking you have this wealth of "football knowledge"...pleaseeeee go troll elsewhere.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

keep thinking you have this wealth of "football knowledge"...pleaseeeee go troll elsewhere.

Yes, mind you this is a guy who started a thread claiming Tarvaris Jackson might be our starter 3 days after he was cut. Either his "football knowledge" is a myth or he is trolling pretty hard.

[BillsFever21]

His great football knowledge lead him to wanting Matt Barkley with the #8 pick in the draft even though he ended up as a 4th round pick and the 4th QB selected. Great call there. Many teams could use that vast knowledge of football.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

Except he still wasn't, no matter how many times you say it. The opening day starters were Glenn-Levitre-Wood-Urbik-Pears
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201209090nyj.htm

Hairston started in games for Glenn:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201210070sfo.htm

And then took over for Pears when Pears was injured:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201211250clt.htm

But he was not the starter. He's a backup who subbed in for injuries. Do you know the difference?



It tells me that the Bills are lowballing him because they have the franchise tag as leverage.



Of course they did, that's why they played him at cornerback for two solid seasons. And said things like this:
http://blogs.buffalobills.com/2011/05/10/cb-williams-will-push-to-start/


So now that he's a bust at corner, they try to salvage him at safety and NTD claims it was the plan all along. LMFAO.




And you are once again fluffing bums that have accomplished little or nothing, and pitching them as replacements for a multiple all-pro.

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And Jairus Byrd is a current Pro Bowler.

you are simply wrong about aaron Williams. they knew all along that aaron " might" struggle on the outside boundary, and nix said if that's the case they will just move him inside. so you are simply wrong. they drafted him with the mindset he could be a replacement for byrd "if" he didn't have the hips for corner. read or watch the 2011 draft coverage by nix on draft day after they picked him. secondly, hairston was a starter last year, ( when pears was hurt). no ****. and he was one of the best run blockers in the league, his pass blocking was average and not as good as pears. that's what I said, but continue with the bs strawman arguments. if you call 7 mil low balling, well like I said, your football knowledge is suspect. again, whaley is taking the packers/steelers approach, and will not give a god damn cover 2 safety who is suspect vs the run 10 mil per. its ridiculous. we simply have a different opinion, and I don't really care if we lose him, especially if we can get a 2nd and 4th

[NOT THE DUDE...]

its the same argument with levitre. ( especially when you consider we have decent options there)... again, positional value, past/current injury concerns, how much are they asking, who is a fa soon and how good are they?

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you can bet if wood plays all 16 games or most, and trust me, he will dominate, its going to cost a ton to resign him. as a great center, I would for sure give him the cash.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

you are simply wrong about aaron Williams. they knew all along that aaron " might" struggle on the outside boundary, and nix said if that's the case they will just move him inside. so you are simply wrong. they drafted him with the mindset he could be a replacement for byrd "if" he didn't have the hips for corner. read or watch the 2011 draft coverage by nix on draft day after they picked him.

See how you start adding all these "ifs" and "mights" when I call you out? The Bills did not draft Williams to make him a safety, they drafted him to play cornerback. When he failed at that, only then did they move him to try to salvage the pick.


secondly, hairston was a starter last year, ( when pears was hurt).

And guess what you call a player who only starts when someone else gets hurt?

The backup.


if you call 7 mil low balling, well like I said, your football knowledge is suspect.

It IS lowballing, that's below market value for an elite safety.

Polamalu: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/troy-polamalu/ (9.125/year)
Eric Berry: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/eric-berry/ (8.34/year)
Antrel Rolle: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-giants/antrel-rolle/ (7.4/year)
Eric Weddle: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/san-diego-chargers/eric-weddle/ (8/year)
Dashon Goldson: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/tampa-bay-buccaneers/dashon-goldson/ (8.25/year)

Byrd is in their category and you want to offer him significantly below their contract value. Lowballing.


again, whaley is taking the packers/steelers approach,

Note that the Steelers have the highest paid safety in the league. He's the 5th highest paid player on their team.


and will not give a god damn cover 2 safety who is suspect vs the run 10 mil per. its ridiculous. we simply have a different opinion, and I don't really care if we lose him, especially if we can get a 2nd and 4th

You pulled this "10 million per" number completely out of your own butt, and now you're complaining that it's too high?


its the same argument with levitre. ( especially when you consider we have decent options there)... again, positional value, past/current injury concerns, how much are they asking, who is a fa soon and how good are they?
Yeah, the argument to let Levitre go was to pay Byrd, so pay Byrd.


you can bet if wood plays all 16 games or most, and trust me, he will dominate, its going to cost a ton to resign him. as a great center, I would for sure give him the cash.

Right, so after saying that only QBs, WRs, Pass rushers, and OTs are worth big bucks, you want us to go all in on a Center.

Seems legit.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

See how you start adding all these "ifs" and "mights" when I call you out? The Bills did not draft Williams to make him a safety, they drafted him to play cornerback. When he failed at that, only then did they move him to try to salvage the pick.



And guess what you call a player who only starts when someone else gets hurt?

The backup.



It IS lowballing, that's below market value for an elite safety.

Polamalu: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/troy-polamalu/ (9.125/year)
Eric Berry: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/eric-berry/ (8.34/year)
Antrel Rolle: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-giants/antrel-rolle/ (7.4/year)
Eric Weddle: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/san-diego-chargers/eric-weddle/ (8/year)
Dashon Goldson: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/tampa-bay-buccaneers/dashon-goldson/ (8.25/year)

Byrd is in their category and you want to offer him significantly below their contract value. Lowballing.



Note that the Steelers have the highest paid safety in the league. He's the 5th highest paid player on their team.



You pulled this "10 million per" number completely out of your own butt, and now you're complaining that it's too high?


[/B]Yeah, the argument to let Levitre go was to pay Byrd, so pay Byrd.



Right, so after saying that only QBs, WRs, Pass rushers, and OTs are worth big bucks, you want us to go all in on a Center.

Seems legit.

again, byrd is not as good as those safeties. hes a centerfielder, not an impact safety. that's why I said hes just like kurt schulz.... I want him, but not over 7 mil... we just disagree on where to put resources. you are simply wrong about aaron Williams. and I was talking about how hairston played when he started, and how he will win the job this year. again, hes a great run blocker

[NOT THE DUDE...]

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/6643/chris-hairston http://boards.buffalobills.com/showthread.php?437598-Where-each-Bills-player-is-ranked-in-the-NFL-based-on-position-PFF-Ratings http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFTaqCqZdy8 - watch the 1st highlight, he moves Dixon back 5 yards... again, he has literal erik Williams power at rt when run blocking and the pass blocking skill of a rt. and you want to lose him for a centerfield safety. dumb dumb dumb

[NOT THE DUDE...]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IldpoY5kkk- watch hairston literally forklift derrick Johnson into the air and on his back...

[IlluminatusUIUC]

again, byrd is not as good as those safeties.

He absolutely is. At the same point in his career, Byrd has 10 forced fumbles to Polamalu's 4, 18 INTs to 10, and they've both been on two All-Pro squads. And Byrd has been doing this on a team that's changed defenses and defensive coordinators 3 times in four seasons. Meanwhile, Polamalu's spent nearly his entire career under Dick LeBeau, who is already a Hall of Famer before you even account for his coaching.

Byrd is already one of the best safeties in the game and his first four years stack up well against nearly anyone you could name. Why is it you think he's so replaceable? Why is it you don't think he can improve?


http://boards.buffalobills.com/showthread.php?437598-Where-each-Bills-player-is-ranked-in-the-NFL-based-on-position-PFF-Ratings I generally don't give a lot of weight to PFF rankings, but did you notice they ranked Byrd the #1 pass-defending safety in the league? And you don't think he's an impact player?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFTaqCqZdy8 - watch the 1st highlight, he moves Dixon back 5 yards...

Did you watch the first highlight? He's clearly double-teaming Dixon with Urbik. It's a great play, but it's not what you think it is.


again, he has literal erik Williams power at rt when run blocking and the pass blocking skill of a rt. and you want to lose him for a centerfield safety. dumb dumb dumb

I don't know why you've convinced yourself that we have to lose either of them. We have a ton of salary cap room even with Byrd's tag figure taking up nearly 7 million. We can easily afford to pay him.

As for Hairston, he's under contract through 2014.
Erik Pears is making $7million the the next two years and then also becomes a free agent in 2014.

Surely even you can put 2 and 2 together.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

He absolutely is. At the same point in his career, Byrd has 10 forced fumbles to Polamalu's 4, 18 INTs to 10, and they've both been on two All-Pro squads. And Byrd has been doing this on a team that's changed defenses and defensive coordinators 3 times in four seasons. Meanwhile, Polamalu's spent nearly his entire career under Dick LeBeau, who is already a Hall of Famer before you even account for his coaching.

Byrd is already one of the best safeties in the game and his first four years stack up well against nearly anyone you could name. Why is it you think he's so replaceable? Why is it you don't think he can improve?

I generally don't give a lot of weight to PFF rankings, but did you notice they ranked Byrd the #1 pass-defending safety in the league? And you don't think he's an impact player?



Did you watch the first highlight? He's clearly double-teaming Dixon with Urbik. It's a great play, but it's not what you think it is.



I don't know why you've convinced yourself that we have to lose either of them. We have a ton of salary cap room even with Byrd's tag figure taking up nearly 7 million. We can easily afford to pay him.

As for Hairston, he's under contract through 2014.
Erik Pears is making $7million the the next two years and then also becomes a free agent in 2014.

Surely even you can put 2 and 2 together.

byrd is great playing centerfield. but hes average to below avg vs the run. hes really good, but I don't simply count stats to say hes as good as troy. ask any rational fan who they would rather have, and you have your answer right there. goldson is better, whitner is better, earl Thomas is better, hell I said months ago kurt schulz was just as good

[Mike]

It's kind of strange that I agree with nearly every argument for keeping Byrd. It's been the case many times that Bills fans justify the FO in letting a quality player go. This being said its quite simple logic to know what must be done.

1) Every position has value: you field 11 players not just a QB, OT, WR, DE, & DB.
2) Value: some positions are more valuable than others like QB vs RB
3) Talent: talent is unique and difficult to replace regardless of position. If a Byrd like player was so easy to replace than every team would have a PB Safety and he would be average.
4) Talent & Value: it's better to have a talented player at safety than a ****y player at QB. Do you prefer Byrd or JP?

And there is More...
1) building a winner: comes down to great talent and great team play.
2) FA & Draft: great teams attempt to improve at ever possible positions by resigning their top players (more often than not) getting other top FAs and drafting well.

Lastly...
1) Building Via Draft: you can not build via draft if you let your top players walk but resign mediocre players for less.
2) Draft: if you 'believe' that certain positions such as G, C, FS, SS, etc... Are not worth resigning when they reach All Pro Level than you have no business drafting them on 1st 2 days. Why draft a FS in 2nd round like Byrd if he us not worth resigning one day?

* if the counter argument was correct and that players like Byrd don't deserve $9Mil than no other franchise would pay it!!! Thus lowering amount!!!

If you think the Bills have sone great insight on the true value of players on a positional POV and that the rest of the NFL is wrong than this difference in ideology would have produced a dynasty!!!

In this case the Bills are wrong. It's far better to sign Byrd at $9M and drafting a backup than it is to resign McKelvin (sp?) at $4M and drafting a backup....

[NOT THE DUDE...]

It's kind of strange that I agree with nearly every argument for keeping Byrd. It's been the case many times that Bills fans justify the FO in letting a quality player go. This being said its quite simple logic to know what must be done.

1) Every position has value: you field 11 players not just a QB, OT, WR, DE, & DB.
2) Value: some positions are more valuable than others like QB vs RB
3) Talent: talent is unique and difficult to replace regardless of position. If a Byrd like player was so easy to replace than every team would have a PB Safety and he would be average.
4) Talent & Value: it's better to have a talented player at safety than a ****y player at QB. Do you prefer Byrd or JP?

And there is More...
1) building a winner: comes down to great talent and great team play.
2) FA & Draft: great teams attempt to improve at ever possible positions by resigning their top players (more often than not) getting other top FAs and drafting well.

Lastly...
1) Building Via Draft: you can not build via draft if you let your top players walk but resign mediocre players for less.
2) Draft: if you 'believe' that certain positions such as G, C, FS, SS, etc... Are not worth resigning when they reach All Pro Level than you have no business drafting them on 1st 2 days. Why draft a FS in 2nd round like Byrd if he us not worth resigning one day?

* if the counter argument was correct and that players like Byrd don't deserve $9Mil
than no other franchise would pay it!!! Thus lowering amount!!!

If you think the Bills have sone great insight on the true value of players on a positional POV and that the rest of the NFL is wrong than this difference in ideology would have produced a dynasty!!!

In this case the Bills are wrong. It's far better to sign Byrd at $9M and drafting a backup than it is to resign McKelvin (sp?) at $4M and drafting a backup....

you are assuming each team is wise in valuing players. I don't think anyone wants byrd to leave. hes a ballhawk and a legit top 10 safety, and a top 5 cover safety. I just don't know if its smart to pay him over 7 mil a year

[IlluminatusUIUC]

byrd is great playing centerfield. but hes average to below avg vs the run. hes really good, but I don't simply count stats to say hes as good as troy. ask any rational fan who they would rather have, and you have your answer right there.

You're comparing a 32 year old to a 26 year old and complaining that the latter hasn't accomplished as much. Byrd has done as much as Polamalu had in his first four years, that's why I brought up the stats.


goldson is better

Maybe, but he's played with a much better supporting cast and DC.


whitner is better

LMAO no. Byrd stole his position as a rookie, for god's sakes.


earl Thomas is better

Again, plays with much better teammates and has a better DC.


hell I said months ago kurt schulz was just as good

And you were wrong then, just as you're wrong now. Schulz wasn't even the starter by the time he was 26.

[justasportsfan]

We've had guys like POZ, Whitner, Schobel, Kelsay , Josh Reed, etc. Through the years. While some of them could be considered solid role players (except Whitner) , we've haven't had playmakers in a long time. If we have to throw money on anyone, I would hope it's on someone thats proven to make plays and Byrd fits that definition.

[stuckincincy]

You're comparing a 32 year old to a 26 year old and complaining that the latter hasn't accomplished as much. Byrd has done as much as Polamalu had in his first four years, that's why I brought up the stats.

Byrd hasn't done anything at all comparable to Polamlu. Polamalu bounces in and out from the LOS, stops runs close to the LOS, ranges into the backfield for passes etc. A remarkable player. Possible HOF.AFC North clubs take pains to game plan against him....look to hit him so hard he flies out of the park.

Byrd is a very decent player. But not at the same level. IMO.



LMAO no. Byrd stole his position as a rookie, for god's sakes.



Again, plays with much better teammates and has a better DC.



And you were wrong then, just as you're wrong now. Schulz wasn't even the starter by the time he was 26.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Byrd hasn't done anything at all comparable to Polamlu. Polamalu bounces in and out from the LOS, stops runs close to the LOS, ranges into the backfield for passes etc. A remarkable player. Possible HOF.AFC North clubs take pains to game plan against him....look to hit him so hard he flies out of the park.

Byrd is a very decent player. But not at the same level. IMO.

You're comparing Polamalu's entire career to Byrd's first four years spent with bum DCs. Will Byrd have as good a career as Polamalu? I can't say, but his first four years are absolutely comparable. Byrd hasn't even his his physical prime yet, for god's sakes, and he's forced more fumbles than Polamalu has in his entire career.

Troy does play better in run support, I will concede that. But Byrd is much better in pass coverage and the turnovers and accolades bear that out.

People are really, really sleeping on this guy. If we let him walk over two million, it's going to burn us.

[JoeMama]

You're comparing Polamalu's entire career to Byrd's first four years spent with bum DCs. Will Byrd have as good a career as Polamalu? I can't say, but his first four years are absolutely comparable. Byrd hasn't even his his physical prime yet, for god's sakes, and he's forced more fumbles than Polamalu has in his entire career.

Troy does play better in run support, I will concede that. But Byrd is much better in pass coverage and the turnovers and accolades bear that out.

People are really, really sleeping on this guy. If we let him walk over two million, it's going to burn us.

For real.

The Bills shouldn't be splitting hairs over 2 mil. Our entire business model is supposed to be ALL ABOUT retaining homegrown talent. Nix said our intention was to build through the draft, not free agency. But the entire plan falls through if we don't keep anyone.

There are only so many draft spots a year. We'll never get better if we're a rotating door for guys on their rookie contracts and no one else.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

For real.

The Bills shouldn't be splitting hairs over 2 mil. Our entire business model is supposed to be ALL ABOUT retaining homegrown talent. Nix said our intention was to build through the draft, not free agency. But the entire plan falls through if we don't keep anyone.

There are only so many draft spots a year. We'll never get better if we're a rotating door for guys on their rookie contracts and no one else.

you cant keep everyone, its not will, but math. its the reason there is so much parity now...

[Mike]

you are assuming each team is wise in valuing players. I don't think anyone wants byrd to leave. hes a ballhawk and a legit top 10 safety, and a top 5 cover safety. I just don't know if its smart to pay him over 7 mil a year

1) what metric are you using to determine than anything over $7m is too much?

2) market: your statement implied that the FA FS market in the NFL is too high even though it's one of the cheaper positions to employee. What evidence, mathematical logic, etc do you have to prove your point?

3) Again: if the rest of the NFL is dumber in assessing the true value of players and the Bills are right, than this would have translated in a Dynasty.

Instead you have the opposite, a team that lets its best players hit FA and resigns their mediocre players and a big FA every few years and this approach has lead to the longest current playoff drought in the NFL!

[Mike]

you cant keep everyone, its not will, but math. its the reason there is so much parity now...

Keep everyone, who said anything about that??? You keep your best players and let the mediocre ones walk. Had the Bills let McKelvin walk that's $4M they could have used for Byrd.

The great teams keep their best players and let them walk after they have reached their peak, become old, or injury prone!

[Mace]

The great teams keep their best players and let them walk after they have reached their peak, become old, or injury prone!

That's my biggest problem with the Bills. I'm not sure players were worth all that at the time but you think so after they are gone. We never really keep anyone who you finally wished we didn't besides Kelsay, and that's only because he tried like a maniac while being so obviously incapable, you sort of had to like him whether or not you admit it.

I'm real apathetic on Byrd, his ballhawking big play ability is kind of not real inspiring though people will kick me for saying so. I am never real sure it's because he lacks a defense around him or he's just a big play guy at garbage time. Is he one of the top 5 ? Mmph. I guess I'd think he'd want a high end salary with elite position escalators in his contract. I wouldn't pay him as elite though, like Kyle "the legend" Williams, you can't be that awesome on terrible defenses whether or not people kick me for saying it.

Elite playmaking players make huge differences on terrible defenses and we don't have any of them.

Let him sit if he wants to quibble over top 5 money. I wasn't ever really sure Levitre quibbled so much as they just said "nah" for no reason I can figure out. With Byrd we lose 9 games, without Byrd, we're going to lose 9 games so....

[mightysimi]

In reality it's June, both sides are trying to play hardball. Byrd holding out and the FO lowballing. They are waiting for each other to blink. As we get closer to the start of training camp or even the season, we will get a better idea.