Are we looking over how good kolb could be?

[NOT THE DUDE...]

with a terrible oline, maybe the worst oline in the nfl, kolb played pretty well for the cards. and having learned their system in his 2nd year he was playing really well.... I guess what im asking is, obviously kolb has the arm talent to be elite in shorts, and he has shown really nice flashes of excellence in the games. are we looking over kolb? he hasn't even started 2 seasons yet, and people keep saying he peaked, but has he? has he really been given a full season to play and get used to the team? do we really even know how good he can really be??? I just looked at his stats and highlights and he has tremendous arm talent, accuracy, arm strength, toughness, etc. again, its the ultimate what if, but what if kolb played a whole season with the eagles in 2010? or the cards in 2012? would he even be available? I love the ej pick, but I want a truly open competition, I think kolb could surprise, ( especially with quick reads in the no huddle). with a great running game, which I feel we will have, could this be the ultimate surprise bills fans are looking over. keep in mind, in my heart im excited about ej, and would love for him to start, but maybe our emotions are making us look over how good kolb could really be. put it this way, if kolb is starting opening day, I feel we can beat the pats and I have no hesitation in saying that.

- - - Updated - - -

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KolbKe00.htm

[NOT THE DUDE...]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEI331uXFZ0
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2012093007/2012/REG4/dolphins@cardinals/watch#menu=highlights

- - - Updated - - -


http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/201209...enu=highlights

[NOT THE DUDE...]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqF8zPicVwo

[Jaybird]

one shot to the head and he's for the season... He will start the first 2-3 games

[NOT THE DUDE...]

one shot to the head and he's for the season... He will start the first 2-3 games

maybe. don't blame you for thinking that. but like I said, if he is healthy the whole year, maybe this guy can light it up...?

[Skooby]

Kolb makes Vick look like Ironman.

[feldspar]

one shot to the head and he's for the season... He will start the first 2-3 games

Kolb started something like 50 straight games in college at Houston, I believe.

So, he got hurt a couple of times...so did Matthew Stafford.

[mikemac2001]

im ok with him starting the season even tho i would rather see EJ since ill be in buffalo week 1 and 2

i think kolb could have some success and this offense seems to fit him well

hand it off play good d and he should be fine

[elltrain22]

He's just like every pro athlete. When he plays with confidence he's a much better player. Actually, when he's playing w/ confidence, he really looks like a really good qb. His problem is, when he doesn't have confidence, he hurries throws, makes bad decisions, and hangs in the pocket way too long.

I'll give him a chance, but I am not very optimistic.

[Parzival]

tl;dr

[better days]

I think you meant to say overlooking. I think Kolb has a better arm than Fitz. And at this point can read NFL defenses better than EJ.

But EJ has an ARM like few others in the NFL, an ELITE arm. I can't wait until he is ready to start.

[justasportsfan]

showing a video of Kolb throwing an INT in the endzone that was returned for a TD has me sold on him. Thanks NTD, sb here we come.

[venis2k1]

I will be shocked if kolbsanity isn't our opening day starter...of course, I haven't had as much koolaid on ej as most of you have.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

I just think he can be really good, like pro bowl good if healthy, and a good oline, which is very, very possible. like I said, he has the skill set of aaron Rodgers. that's who he reminds me of as a qb, but the kid has always been hurt. I guess we will see

- - - Updated - - -

put it this way, with an improved oline, I will not be surprised if he lights it up

[NOT THE DUDE...]

showing a video of Kolb throwing an INT in the endzone that was returned for a TD has me sold on him. Thanks NTD, sb here we come.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eA5KVGu2DA

[Ingtar33]

Kolb is RoboSack... watch him... he's the exact same player.

bills fans will hate his guts if he starts for a protracted period of time.

[better days]

Kolb is RoboSack... watch him... he's the exact same player.

bills fans will hate his guts if he starts for a protracted period of time.

You may be right, but on the John Murphy show the other day, Marrone said "We knew what we were getting with EJ, we know it will take TIME to develop him."

I think that means Kolb starts the Season, but who knows? Maybe they will let EJ develop ON THE FIELD.

[justasportsfan]

Kolb is RoboSack... watch him... he's the exact same player.

bills fans will hate his guts if he starts for a protracted period of time.

Kolb actually throws more than 5 yards.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Kolb is RoboSack... watch him... he's the exact same player.

bills fans will hate his guts if he starts for a protracted period of time.

Kolb has never accomplished that before, why would he start now?

- - - Updated - - -


Kolb actually throws more than 5 yards.

So did Johnson. That was his problem, he held the ball for days and days waiting for guys to get open.

[Ingtar33]

Kolb actually throws more than 5 yards.

so did rob johnson. johnson never had an issue getting the ball downfield. his issue was zero pocket awareness. Kolb has the same problem.

[OpIv37]

He had a bad OL in AZ but he also had Fitzgerald. Stevie's good but he's nowhere close to Fitzgerald.

And lets not forget the complete lack of experience of all the WR's behind Stevie. In addition to Kolb's own flaws, this is a very tough situation.

[better days]

Kolb has never accomplished that before, why would he start now

Not true. As has been pointed out before, Kolb played 50 straight games in College without injury.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Not true. As has been pointed out before, Kolb played 50 straight games in College without injury.

Um, yeah. Seven years ago when he was playing in Conference USA at 21-22 years old. Now he'll be 29 in the NFL with a multiple concussion history.

[Meathead]

did you change the title? did it always say 'are we looking over'?

if so i would like to retroactively offer this punchline:

♫♪ im looking over a four leaf kolber that i overlooked before ♫♪




hey they cant all be gems you know

[Johnny Bugmenot]

Not true. As has been pointed out before, Kolb played 50 straight games in College without injury. And Tim Tebow was the pinnacle of his class... but where is he now? College and pro football are two totally different beasts... and besides, injuries at this level tend to be cumulative: the more you sustain, the more likely you will get another one. The idea that Kolb might one day revert to college form and consistently stay healthy is a fool's canard.

[better days]

And Tim Tebow was the pinnacle of his class... but where is he now? College and pro football are two totally different beasts... and besides, injuries at this level tend to be cumulative: the more you sustain, the more likely you will get another one. The idea that Kolb might one day revert to college form and consistently stay healthy is a fool's canard.

Well good point about injuries being cumulative. No doubt the reason Gronk fell to the Pats* in the draft because of his injuries in College. And now with this back surgery, who knows how effective he will be & how long before he is injured again between the arm & back injuries he has suffered.

I hear about the success of the back surgery Gronk had being talked about, but I wonder if that is success for the general population or for NFL players that BANG around like Gronk does in games.

[EDS]

Well good point about injuries being cumulative. No doubt the reason Gronk fell to the Pats* in the draft because of his injuries in College. And now with this back surgery, who knows how effective he will be & how long before he is injured again between the arm & back injuries he has suffered.

I hear about the success of the back surgery Gronk had being talked about, but I wonder if that is success for the general population or for NFL players that BANG around like Gronk does in games.

I would still take an injured Gronk over a healthy Aaron Williams.

[BillsFever21]

You lost me when you tried to compare him to one of the best QB's in the league in Aaron Rodgers.

The reason he hasn't had the "opportunity" to play an entire season and has only played 21 games is because he has trouble making it through a month without being knocked out for an extended period of time. Hell even a game or two is a stretch sometimes.

He was given the chance to be a starter in Philly and was injured in the first week or two. Came back played several games and was injured again. It was the same old situation in Arizona. The guy is just brittle and trying to look back to 8 years ago in college to prove that he isn't is really searching for anything. Every single time he has been given the chance to play in the NFL he has been injured within weeks and a couple times in the first game.

[better days]

You lost me when you tried to compare him to one of the best QB's in the league in Aaron Rodgers.

The reason he hasn't had the "opportunity" to play an entire season and has only played 21 games is because he has trouble making it through a month without being knocked out for an extended period of time. Hell even a game or two is a stretch sometimes.

He was given the chance to be a starter in Philly and was injured in the first week or two. Came back played several games and was injured again. It was the same old situation in Arizona. The guy is just brittle and trying to look back to 8 years ago in college to prove that he isn't is really searching for anything. Every single time he has been given the chance to play in the NFL he has been injured within weeks and a couple times in the first game.

I agree with you, Rodgers could be a HOF player if he keeps playing at the level he has. Even Favre is impressed with him.

But I think Kolb could be a good bridge until EJ is ready & it is easy to root for a guy like Kolb. He is enthusiastic & down to earth. When EJ takes over, I think it will be a smooth transition & Kolb will be his back up for a long time because he looks to be a team player.

[justasportsfan]

so did rob johnson. johnson never had an issue getting the ball downfield. his issue was zero pocket awareness. Kolb has the same problem.
Maybe in pocket presense but not.in dink and dunk.
Rob was worse than Trent. He made Larry Centers all pro like by dinking to him. Kolb is not nearly as bad in that regard.

[imbondz]

can't stand when someone posts a video of a great play, and bases an entire career based off of that video. if Kolb hasn't made some good plays, he wouldn't be in the NFL. but so far signs point to him being just another journeyman QB.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

You lost me when you tried to compare him to one of the
best QB's in the league in Aaron Rodgers.

The reason he hasn't had the "opportunity" to play an entire season and has only played 21 games is because he has trouble making it through a month without being knocked out for an extended period of time. Hell even a game or two is a stretch sometimes.

He was given the chance to be a starter in Philly and was injured in the first week or two. Came back played several games and was injured again. It was the same old situation in Arizona. The guy is just brittle and trying to look back to 8 years ago in college to prove that he isn't is really searching for anything. Every single time he has been given the chance to play in the NFL he has been injured within weeks and a couple times in the first game.

I didn't say he was just as good, I said skill set. as in his mannerisms, throwing motion, urgency in the pocket, vertical vision, west coast, etc... as far as pure talent, and how good he could be, I think he is more than capable with a solid line and d to win 10-12 games and be a matt schaub, tony romo, jay cutler, rivers type qb.... like I said, im of the opinion that he hasn't actually peaked yet... so in reality, he could be very,very good but he needs a legit chance.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

but the rob Johnson comparisons are wrong. the sacks were horrible only with Johnson, with kolb, vick, skelton, whoever else its just as bad if not worse, signifying inadequate oline play. either way, sacks have always been a bit of a red herring as a qb might take 10-15 more sacks on average like big ben or Rodgers but still have elite production. its mainly 3rd down conversion rates, ypa, td-int ratio, and most of all scoring pts... never mind the fact that the Arizona oline the past few years has been the worst oline in nfl history possibly. so that might be something that is creating the mirage that he is a qb that takes to many sacks

[NOT THE DUDE...]

especially with no threat of a running game at all...

[DynaPaul]

I say let him start the season and let him risk losing his job either to an injury or poor play. If he sucks it'll answer the question over whether it was poor o-lines or not.

[better days]

He had a bad OL in AZ but he also had Fitzgerald. Stevie's good but he's nowhere close to Fitzgerald.

And lets not forget the complete lack of experience of all the WR's behind Stevie. In addition to Kolb's own flaws, this is a very tough situation.

Well, he had Fitzgerald, but NOTHING else. No other WRs worth a damn, no running game.

In Buffalo he will not only have Stevie but other (yes unproven) WR's, a healthy Chandler at TE as well as CJ & Freddie in the backfield

[Typ0]

Kolb could be really good. We have finally had a real upgrade at the QB position not one guy who might make it better...

[EDS]

Well, he had Fitzgerald, but NOTHING else. No other WRs worth a damn, no running game.

In Buffalo he will not only have Stevie but other (yes unproven) WR's, a healthy Chandler at TE as well as CJ & Freddie in the backfield

He did have a first round draft pick to work with in addition to Fitzgerald, so if you can count the Bills unproven, mostly rookie, WRs, Floyd has to count too.

[better days]

He did have a first round draft pick to work with in addition to Fitzgerald, so if you can count the Bills unproven, mostly rookie, WRs, Floyd has to count too.

Well, if he did ANYTHING, I would have counted him. So why should he count? Because he sucked, the Bills rookies will suck also? I don't think so.

[BillsFever21]

The Arizona OL definitely wasn't good but there is a reason why he was sacked at twice the rate of the rest of the QB's on their roster last season. He's had plenty of legit chances but he has blown them all between the inability of staying healthy for more then a few games at a time and just bad play. The Eagles and the Cardinals both gave him every chance possible of being their starting QB but he blew every single chance he was given.

Making excuses for a QB who has been in the league for a couple years is one thing but making them for a QB who is a 7 year veteran with the same track record whenever he is given the chance to play is being biased. Had the Jets signed him as their starter the same people would be laughing about it.

[mayotm]

Well, if he did ANYTHING, I would have counted him. So why should he count? Because he sucked, the Bills rookies will suck also? I don't think so.Are you expecting anything from TJ Graham this year? He did NOTHING last year. I'm sure in your utterly ridiculous homerestic view of things, the Bills second year players will improve, but other teams second year players won't. I tend to be on the homer side of most debates, but you take it to a whole other level.

[better days]

The Arizona OL definitely wasn't good but there is a reason why he was sacked at twice the rate of the rest of the QB's on their roster last season. He's had plenty of legit chances but he has blown them all between the inability of staying healthy for more then a few games at a time and just bad play. The Eagles and the Cardinals both gave him every chance possible of being their starting QB but he blew every single chance he was given.

Making excuses for a QB who has been in the league for a couple years is one thing but making them for a QB who is a 7 year veteran with the same track record whenever he is given the chance to play is being biased. Had the Jets signed him as their starter the same people would be laughing about it.

MOST people are not expecting Kolb to become a Pro Bowl player. I expect him to be BETTER than Fitz was last year.

This team won 6 games with Fitz at QB, I expect Kolb/Manuel to do at least that well & hopefully BETTER than that.

[better days]

Are you expecting anything from TJ Graham this year? He did NOTHING last year. I'm sure in your utterly ridiculous homerestic view of things, the Bills second year players will improve, but other teams second year players won't. I tend to be on the homer side of most debates, but you take it to a whole other level.

I did not say Floyd won't improve this year either. His year was about the same as the year TJ had last year. I'm sure Cards fans are looking for Floyd to have a better year this year as Bills fans are looking to TJ to have a better year.

I am not pinning my hopes on any one WR other than Stevie, but I think the Bills have a few WR's that may prove to be weapons.

[Meathead]

i expect kolb to be roughly equivalent to fitz - better long ball but way more sacks. so it might come down to how many bombs he can complete versus drive killing sacks and fumbles

the biggest difference to fitz is that kolb still technically has upside in that hes a little younger and has a third of the starts (21 to 67). fitz is a capable starter and great backup, but i think weve seen as far as hes gonna go. hes great at small ball but the farther you get away from that the worse he gets, and thats not good enough for a nfl starter. kolb essentially has about one and a half seasons worth of starting so its not inconceivable that he hasnt hit his peak yet. some guys really hit their stride right about then, though admittedly its usually in much younger players

still id only give kolb about a one in four chance for that to happen. but you know, sometimes those longer shots hit, and imo the bills might as well give him that shot here. if it does hit then the bills spent close to nuthin for a future high round pick in trade. hey it happens for other teams why cant it happen here. ok dont get your hopes up

[NOT THE DUDE...]

Are you expecting anything from TJ Graham this year? He did NOTHING last year. I'm sure in your utterly ridiculous homerestic view of things, the Bills second year players will improve, but other teams second year players won't. I tend to be on the homer side of most debates, but you take it to a whole other level.

I wouldn't say tj did " NOTHING"... he was a disappointment in the full route tree( normal for most rookie wrs), but was missed a handful of times by fitz on the 9 route, which is what he was expected to do as a rookie.... he had great speed down the field with that long stride similar to lofton, but fitz couldn't hit him

[NOT THE DUDE...]

can't stand when someone posts a video of a great play, and bases an entire career based off of that video. if Kolb hasn't made some good plays, he wouldn't be in the NFL. but so far signs point to him being just another journeyman QB.

that was not the intention, rather to give a small sample of his ability. did you really think that's why I think he can be good, because I saw 5 throws?

[Generalissimus Gibby]

Why do you troll so hard?

[NOT THE DUDE...]

The Arizona OL definitely wasn't good but there is a reason why he was sacked at twice the rate of the rest of the QB's on their roster last season. He's had plenty of legit chances but he has blown them all between the inability of staying healthy for more then a few games at a time and just bad play. The Eagles and the Cardinals both gave him every chance possible of being their starting QB but he blew every single chance he was given.

Making excuses for a QB who has been in the league for a couple years is one thing but making them for a QB who is a 7 year veteran with the same track record whenever he is given the chance to play is being biased. Had the Jets signed him as their starter the same people would be laughing about it.
fair point, but getting sacked 8 times against both Miami and st Louis when batiste is your LT and a rookie massie is your rt is understandable. he won vs Miami and moved the ball well... again, the sack thing is a bit overrated with the cards oline, and when you factor in the actual time he had, not how many sacks there were. kolb on average had 2 less seconds compared to other qbs I believe. or 1.5 seconds. something like that

[BillsFever21]

fair point, but getting sacked 8 times against both Miami and st Louis when batiste is your LT and a rookie massie is your rt is understandable. he won vs Miami and moved the ball well... again, the sack thing is a bit overrated with the cards oline, and when you factor in the actual time he had, not how many sacks there were. kolb on average had 2 less seconds compared to other qbs I believe. or 1.5 seconds. something like that

The majority of passing plays the QB has the ball out in 3 and 4 seconds at the most. Does that mean that Kolb only had 1-2 seconds to throw the ball before the rush got to him? That's not realistic to think he only had less then 2 seconds to get the ball out. Either way he was still sacked at twice the rate last season. He still couldn't stay healthy just like in Philadelphia.

The Eagles wanted him to take over McNabb and gave him the chance. They even gave him the chance against Vick the following season. Each time he didn't produce and somehow after all of that they were still able to sucker a crappy owner into giving them a 2nd round pick for them.

He will probably start the season off as the starter but by midseason he will most likely be injured or replaced due to average play. Even half of the season may be a stretch. They drafted Manuel for a reason and at that point hopefully Manuel will be ready to take over for good.

[Typ0]

he had half the time and got sacked twice as much ... makes sense to me.

[better days]

The majority of passing plays the QB has the ball out in 3 and 4 seconds at the most. Does that mean that Kolb only had 1-2 seconds to throw the ball before the rush got to him? That's not realistic to think he only had less then 2 seconds to get the ball out. Either way he was still sacked at twice the rate last season. He still couldn't stay healthy just like in Philadelphia.

The Eagles wanted him to take over McNabb and gave him the chance. They even gave him the chance against Vick the following season. Each time he didn't produce and somehow after all of that they were still able to sucker a crappy owner into giving them a 2nd round pick for them.

He will probably start the season off as the starter but by midseason he will most likely be injured or replaced due to average play. Even half of the season may be a stretch. They drafted Manuel for a reason and at that point hopefully Manuel will be ready to take over for good.

I have read & heard numerous times football people say how BAD the OL was last year in Arizona. Kolb was not the only Cards QB to be sacked & injured on that team.

[gebobs]

maybe. don't blame you for thinking that. but like I said, if he is healthy the whole year, maybe this guy can light it up...?

No. Kolb blows. He has different warts than Fitz, but warts all the same. Get real.

[JoeMama]

Kevin Kolb taking too many sacks goes well beyond the Card's subpar o-line.

Comparing him to John Skelton is a good point of reference since they shared the same o-line.

If you compare Kolb's sacks per passing attempts to Skelton's a very clear pattern emerges.

Skelton
2011: Sacked once every 11.9 attempts
2012: Once every 13.4 attempts

Kolb
2011: Sacked once every 8.4 attempts
2012: Once every 6.7 attempts

That's bad.

And it shows that there's something flawed in Kolb's game that makes him more prone to sacks. Lack of pocket presence, holding onto the ball too long, etc.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

Kevin Kolb taking too many sacks goes well beyond the Card's subpar o-line.

Comparing him to John Skelton is a good point of reference since they shared the same o-line.

If you compare Kolb's sacks per passing attempts to Skelton's a very clear pattern emerges.

Skelton
2011: Sacked once every 11.9 attempts
2012: Once every 13.4 attempts

Kolb
2011: Sacked once every 8.4 attempts
2012: Once every 6.7 attempts

That's bad.

And it shows that there's something flawed in Kolb's game that makes him more prone to sacks. Lack of pocket presence, holding onto the ball too long, etc.

maybe skelton checks it down... ugh

[Typ0]

we have a squad highly skilled at the check down!

[gebobs]

Kevin Kolb taking too many sacks goes well beyond the Card's subpar o-line.
To Kolb's credit, his INT rate is much better than Skelton's, 1.6% to 4.5%. If you can read into these data, it appears Kolb would prefer a sack to a turnover.

[JoeMama]

To Kolb's credit, his INT rate is much better than Skelton's, 1.6% to 4.5%. If you can read into these data, it appears Kolb would prefer a sack to a turnover.

Yeah, it's a trade-off between bad choices.

Drew Bledsoe had that preference. He'd hold onto the ball forever and wait for something to open up. In the end, he took a million dumb sacks and killed tons of drives.

Ironically, Bledsoe threw a decent amount of picks anyway.

Kolb showed a little progress last year but his willingness to take (or his inability to escape) sacks, depending how you look at it, doesn't bode well for him. He'll either get injured and lose the starting role or he'll take so many stupid sacks and get benched anyway.

[better days]

Yeah, it's a trade-off between bad choices.

Drew Bledsoe had that preference. He'd hold onto the ball forever and wait for something to open up. In the end, he took a million dumb sacks and killed tons of drives.

Ironically, Bledsoe threw a decent amount of picks anyway.

Kolb showed a little progress last year but his willingness to take (or his inability to escape) sacks, depending how you look at it, doesn't bode well for him. He'll either get injured and lose the starting role or he'll take so many stupid sacks and get benched anyway.

Well, it is SMART to take a sack rather than risk an interception. You may lose yardage, but at least you still have the ball. If the sack did not occur on 3rd down, there is still a chance to pick up the first down & if the sack was on 3rd down, at least you can punt the ball away.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

Well, it is SMART to take a sack rather than risk an interception. You may lose yardage, but at least you still have the ball. If the sack did not occur on 3rd down, there is still a chance to pick up the first down & if the sack was on 3rd down, at least you can punt the ball away.

that's what im saying. 1 its an overrated stat if you are still moving the ball, scoring pts like big ben. and when you factor in the oline for the cards, im guessing he gets sacked around 35x for the bills if he plays the whole year. same as Kelly in 91
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF8P47ItJGY

[IlluminatusUIUC]

To Kolb's credit, his INT rate is much better than Skelton's, 1.6% to 4.5%. If you can read into these data, it appears Kolb would prefer a sack to a turnover.

Kolb's INT rate was 1.6% for that one 5 game stretch in 2012. His career rate is 3.3%, one of the worst among active QBs (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_int_perc_active.htm)

[BillsFever21]

So the people who imagines Kolb can be a pro bowl type of QB is trying to compare his ineptness to John Skelton to prove he wasn't that bad. Great comparison to try and say at least he might be better then John Skelton because he didn't throw as many INT's as him.

Then we are trying to take out the several games he played last year as evidence? That is really searching there. In his career his INT % is 3.3 and he has been sacked on average of once every 9.8 passing attempts. Not to count the numerous injuries with a couple of them being the first game he has played for the season or stretch.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

Kolb's INT rate was 1.6% for that one 5 game stretch in 2012. His career rate is 3.3%, one of the worst among active QBs (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_int_perc_active.htm)

we will see. I want ej to win it, but im not really too worried if kolb is starting....

[IlluminatusUIUC]

we will see. I want ej to win it, but im not really too worried if kolb is starting....

I'm not "worried" either way because we aren't doing crapola this season.

[BillsFever21]

I'm not "worried" either way because we aren't doing crapola this season.

He's never "worried" about any player on the Bills. We have a team of pro bowlers and future HOF players. Our backups could also start on any team in the league.

[better days]

Kolb's INT rate was 1.6% for that one 5 game stretch in 2012. His career rate is 3.3%, one of the worst among active QBs (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_int_perc_active.htm)

If Kolb sucks, Manuel wins the starting job, end of discussion.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

I'm not "worried" either way because we aren't doing crapola this season. I highly doubt we do nothing, 10-6 / 9-7 is totally reasonable if kolb is healthy and the d can get to the top 12 and cause more pressure/turnovers... things change from season to season rapidly, especially if kolb or ej are good and we get a couple young guys to break out...

[Mace]

I see Kolb as a less smart Fitz with a better arm while being more brittle.

I'm not going to be upset if he starts for as long as he plays but he's gonna get damaged. This is transition time. Manuel, from what I've seen of him, throws a sweet ball, but needs learn to see the field for what it is.

My best compliment to an opposing QB is that he annoys me, and Kolb annoyed me when he played until he went down inevitably. I like how he talks, talks like he's giving no ground but he can't help it. He's going to be mediocre to good to bad within 5-6 games and get hurt and become just another maybe, and it won't be Kevin Kolb's fault he's Kevin Kolb. I wouldn't be real surprised if this was the offense he's waited for his whole life nor be disappointed. You have to like a guy that admits nothing that would bum you out. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if he goes down with a sprained neck tackling someone like the lb coach taught them after an interception.

[kishoph]

we will see. I want ej to win it, but im not really too worried if kolb is starting....


I think having Kolb on the team is a plus, it allows the coaches the option to wait until they're sure EJ is ready, without having to throw him in there, because there's no other choice.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

If Kolb sucks, Manuel wins the starting job, end of discussion.

Kolb does suck, and I've been saying Manuel should start since we drafted him.


I highly doubt we do nothing, 10-6 / 9-7 is totally reasonable if kolb is healthy and the d can get to the top 12 and cause more pressure/turnovers... things change from season to season rapidly, especially if kolb or ej are good and we get a couple young guys to break out...

So 9-7 is reasonable if:
-The D jumps twenty places in one offseason with a completely new scheme
-Kolb stays healthy all year (something he's never done)
-"A couple young guys break out"

That's already a lot to ask, before you even account for:
-losing our best lineman
-a rookie head coach and OC
-Byrd's potential holdout
-Our much more difficult schedule

I remember the last time a scheme switch and an offensive head coach was supposed to turn around our 6-10 team immediately. We went 4-12.

[better days]

Kolb does suck, and I've been saying Manuel should start since we drafted him.



So 9-7 is reasonable if:
-The D jumps twenty places in one offseason with a completely new scheme
-Kolb stays healthy all year (something he's never done)
-"A couple young guys break out"

That's already a lot to ask, before you even account for:
-losing our best lineman
-a rookie head coach and OC
-Byrd's potential holdout
-Our much more difficult schedule

I remember the last time a scheme switch and an offensive head coach was supposed to turn around our 6-10 team immediately. We went 4-12.

Well, the Coaches say Manuel needs TIME to develop. If he starts, that probably means the Bills lose games they would have won if Kolb were starting.

I will let Marrone decide just how bad Kolb sucks.

And there is no real way to know how difficult the schedule will be, each year some teams surprise & some disappoint.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

Kolb does suck, and I've been saying Manuel should start since we drafted him.



So 9-7 is reasonable if:
-The D jumps twenty places in one offseason with a completely new scheme
-Kolb stays healthy all year (something he's never done)
-"A couple young guys break out"

That's already a lot to ask, before you even account for:
-losing our best lineman
-a rookie head coach and OC
-Byrd's potential holdout
-Our much more difficult schedule

I remember the last time a scheme switch and an offensive head coach was supposed to turn around our 6-10 team immediately. We went 4-12.

I don't think you realize how bad the coaching on d was, and how much of an impact solid qb play matter. we are guessing here, but how many wins do we have last year if pettine was the d-cord? and that was the only change. at a minimum id say we could have been 9-7- 8-8

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Well, the Coaches say Manuel needs TIME to develop. If he starts, that probably means the Bills lose games they would have won if Kolb were starting.

He does need time to develop, I want him to get it on the field. I want him to get the first team reps all through training camp and a full season under his belt.


I will let Marrone decide just how bad Kolb sucks.

Ok? Good for you?


And there is no real way to know how difficult the schedule will be, each year some teams surprise & some disappoint.

Look at a team's points scored vs points allowed, and you have a pretty decent predictor of how strong they are going to be the following year. Teams like the Saints, Steelers, and Bucs underperformed their expectations and are poised for bounce back years. And we play all three of them on the road.


I don't think you realize how bad the coaching on d was, and how much of an impact solid qb play matter. we are guessing here, but how many wins do we have last year if pettine was the d-cord? and that was the only change. at a minimum id say we could have been 9-7- 8-8

If Pettine had already established his system maybe, but this is his first year with these guys. We are breaking in several new starters, several more guys are changing positions, we are counting on a rookie at one of the most critical spots on the D, our lone All-Pro is holding out, and the same story is going on with the offense.

I get that you think this team is on the cusp of superstardom for some reason, but this is a rebuilding year any way you slice it.

[Typ0]

I feel like the same battles are fought every year the only thing that changes are the names...and in the end the team always is at the bottom.

[Syderick]

Kolb doesn't believe he's a just placeholder for the Bills:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000216124/article/kevin-kolb-doesnt-agree-hes-buffalo-bills-placeholder

[NOT THE DUDE...]

He does need time to develop, I want him to get it on the field. I want him to get the first team reps all through training camp and a full season under his belt.



Ok? Good for you?



Look at a team's points scored vs points allowed, and you have a pretty decent predictor of how strong they are going to be the following year. Teams like the Saints, Steelers, and Bucs underperformed their expectations and are poised for bounce back years. And we play all three of them on the road.



If Pettine had already established his system maybe, but this is his first year with these guys. We are breaking in several new starters, several more guys are changing positions, we are counting on a rookie at one of the most critical spots on the D, our lone All-Pro is holding out, and the same story is going on with the offense.

I get that you think this team is on the cusp of superstardom for some reason, but this is a rebuilding year any way you slice it.

not for the jets in 09 and our qb is way better

[BillsFever21]

What do you expect Kolb to say? "I don't think I'm good enough win the starting job and even if I do I will probably get injured and/or eventually lose the job due to bad play?"

I think Kolb will most likely win the starting job going into the season which I'm fine with that. Manuel still has a ton to learn and especially with the field let alone against NFL defenses. There is about a 50/50 chance that he will be the starter for the entire year and even less of a chance that he doesn't lose playing time due to injury. If Manuel gets inserted they will probably keep him in there regardless of how he's playing.

Kolb will probably start against the Patriots and overall he will be around average at best. Whenever he does have a decent game the Kolbers will say how great he is and at the very least we have a QB that we can trade for a high draft pick. Within 8 games he will most likely get injured and after that the Manuel era will probably begin for good. If the stars align the right way he could make it further into the season before getting injured. History surely isn't on his side. I think 5 games is his longest stretch without missing time due to an injury.

[BillsFever21]

not for the jets in 09 and our qb is way better

There is a big difference from that 2009 Jets team. Pettine may have been the DC in name but it was Rex Ryan's defense and he was calling all of the shots. There is a huge difference from installing your own defense, calling the plays and coming up with the game strategy.

He got his real first taste last year and did alright but it was still under Ryan's defense and oversight. I think he will do alright but lets hope he learned from a great defensive coach in Rex Ryan. They were only ranked 25th in yards and 13th in points, 25th in sacks and 23rd in INT's last season though. They did alright in points but they didn't wreak much havoc with turnovers, sacks or giving short fields to the offense.

Sanchez is far from a good QB but he did lead them to the AFC Championship game his first two seasons in the league. Most of it was because of Rex Ryan's defense though. Pettine was just the DC in name and didn't have them responsibilities.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

not for the jets in 09 and our qb is way better

The 2008 Jets already had an average defense with the best cornerback in the league, and they ran a 3-4. Ours was one of the worst in NFL history last year and ran a completely different 4-3.

[better days]

He does need time to develop, I want him to get it on the field. I want him to get the first team reps all through training camp and a full season under his belt.



Ok? Good for you?



Look at a team's points scored vs points allowed, and you have a pretty decent predictor of how strong they are going to be the following year. Teams like the Saints, Steelers, and Bucs underperformed their expectations and are poised for bounce back years. And we play all three of them on the road.



If Pettine had already established his system maybe, but this is his first year with these guys. We are breaking in several new starters, several more guys are changing positions, we are counting on a rookie at one of the most critical spots on the D, our lone All-Pro is holding out, and the same story is going on with the offense.

I get that you think this team is on the cusp of superstardom for some reason, but this is a rebuilding year any way you slice it.

As I said, EVERY year some teams underperform. And some teams do better than expected like the Seahawks last year. As a Bucs fan, I hope they meet or exceed expectations this year (except when they play the Bills) but we have no way of knowing if that will be the case or not. So there is NO WAY to judge how difficult the schedule is at this point. And some teams will do better than expected this year. Maybe the Bills.

Yes good for me, I will trust Marrone who gets paid to judge these guys over fans on the internet.

And I do know this, The Bills thought enough of Kolb to sign him in FA.
And they also thought enough of Kolb to keep him & cut TJax who was IMMEDIATELY signed by the Seahawks.

I agree it is a rebuilding year, but that is no reason to give up all hope. I'm not expecting the Super Bowl, but I'm not expecting 3-13 as some pessimists are either.

[better days]

There is a big difference from that 2009 Jets team. Pettine may have been the DC in name but it was Rex Ryan's defense and he was calling all of the shots. There is a huge difference from installing your own defense, calling the plays and coming up with the game strategy.

He got his real first taste last year and did alright but it was still under Ryan's defense and oversight. I think he will do alright but lets hope he learned from a great defensive coach in Rex Ryan. They were only ranked 25th in yards and 13th in points, 25th in sacks and 23rd in INT's last season though. They did alright in points but they didn't wreak much havoc with turnovers, sacks or giving short fields to the offense.

Sanchez is far from a good QB but he did lead them to the AFC Championship game his first two seasons in the league. Most of it was because of Rex Ryan's defense though. Pettine was just the DC in name and didn't have them responsibilities.

I agree Rex is a GREAT Defensive Coach. The years Sanchez led them to the playoffs, the Jets had GOOD players on both sides of the ball. That team has been diminished in talent by age & the salary cap.

Rex learned football from his father, Pettine has a father that is a Football Coach himself. He has been around football his entire life & I have no doubt he learned from Rex. Maybe enough to school the master.

I do know the Bills were the one team Rex did not want Pettine to go to. Why??????????????????
He did not want to face Pettine twice a year or he was afraid of what Pettine could do with the talent on the Bills or BOTH?

[BillsFever21]

As I said, EVERY year some teams underperform. And some teams do better than expected like the Seahawks last year. As a Bucs fan, I hope they meet or exceed expectations this year (except when they play the Bills) but we have no way of knowing if that will be the case or not. So there is NO WAY to judge how difficult the schedule is at this point. And some teams will do better than expected this year. Maybe the Bills.

Yes good for me, I will trust Marrone who gets paid to judge these guys over fans on the internet.

And I do know this, The Bills thought enough of Kolb to sign him in FA.
And they also thought enough of Kolb to keep him & cut TJax who was IMMEDIATELY signed by the Seahawks.

I agree it is a rebuilding year, but that is no reason to give up all hope. I'm not expecting the Super Bowl, but I'm not expecting 3-13 as some pessimists are either.

I have high hopes for Marrone but we will have to wait and see. Just because someone is an NFL coach doesn't mean crap though. They have to know football to be a head coach but it's how good they are compared to the rest of the guys in the league.

Did you trust Chan Gailey when he was hired even though many fans knew he was a lame duck loser from the start? Did you trust their opinion that Aaron Williams would be a good CB when they drafted him over Kapernick and Dalton when we already had a need at QB? Or maybe when we drafted Terrell Troupe over Gronkowski and Aaron Maybin when there were tons of good LB's on the board like Orakpo, Cushing and Matthews? Or how about all the other horrible decisions? They were paid to judge these guys and most random fans on the internet had a feeling from the beginning that they were horrible choices.

The point is just because they are in the NFL doesn't mean they will be good at their jobs. If that was the case then there wouldn't be as many firings as there are every year. It's how good they are compared to the rest of the league and for most of the Bills existence they have been the red headed step child out of the bunch.

[Albany,n.y.]

I have high hopes for Marrone but we will have to wait and see. Just because someone is an NFL coach doesn't mean crap though. They have to know football to be a head coach but it's how good they are compared to the rest of the guys in the league.

Did you trust Chan Gailey when he was hired even though many fans knew he was a lame duck loser from the start? Did you trust their opinion that Aaron Williams would be a good CB when they drafted him over Kapernick and Dalton when we already had a need at QB? Or maybe when we drafted Terrell Troupe over Gronkowski and Aaron Maybin when there were tons of good LB's on the board like Orakpo, Cushing and Matthews? Or how about all the other horrible decisions? They were paid to judge these guys and most random fans on the internet had a feeling from the beginning that they were horrible choices.

The point is just because they are in the NFL doesn't mean they will be good at their jobs. If that was the case then there wouldn't be as many firings as there are every year. It's how good they are compared to the rest of the league and for most of the Bills existence they have been the red headed step child out of the bunch.

I never trusted the prior regime when it came to the draft or gameday coaching. However, what I do trust is player evaluations in terms of cuts & (unless someone is a proven boob like Gailey when he talked about Spiller being winded) playing time, because no matter how much you think you know sitting at your computer, you can't possibly know what the coaches know after seeing these guys every day in practice during the season. During the season the coaches are practically living with the players 5-6 days a week. They know their limitations, injuries & personalities. No matter how much gameday film you review, you'll always be light years behind an in season coaching staff.

[BillsFever21]

I never trusted the prior regime when it came to the draft or gameday coaching. However, what I do trust is player evaluations in terms of cuts & (unless someone is a proven boob like Gailey when he talked about Spiller being winded) playing time, because no matter how much you think you know sitting at your computer, you can't possibly know what the coaches know after seeing these guys every day in practice during the season. During the season the coaches are practically living with the players 5-6 days a week. They know their limitations, injuries & personalities. No matter how much gameday film you review, you'll always be light years behind an in season coaching staff.

I never insinuated that the fans sitting at their computer knew more about football then any coach or GM in the NFL. It's how good they are compared to the rest of the league and just because they are hired for a job doesn't mean they know what they're doing. There are many times when you average fan ends up being right over the front office or coaching staff on personnel decisions though. Obviously it still doesn't mean they could do the job or know more then they do.

Of course the coach is going to have more insight when they see them everyday but it doesn't mean they're good at their job and make the right decisions. If that's the case then you can say the same thing when it comes to Kolb being released in Arizona after only two years. They obviously didn't think he was very good and he even lost his job to John Skelton towards the end of 2011 and going into the season in 2012. Skelton was injured in the first week of the season or Kolb wouldn't have been on the field. They also went on a long winning streak in 2011 after Kolb was replaced. So basically it only took them a half of a season to basically give up on Kolb and replace him with Skelton.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I never trusted the prior regime when it came to the draft or gameday coaching. However, what I do trust is player evaluations in terms of cuts & (unless someone is a proven boob like Gailey when he talked about Spiller being winded) playing time, because no matter how much you think you know sitting at your computer, you can't possibly know what the coaches know after seeing these guys every day in practice during the season. During the season the coaches are practically living with the players 5-6 days a week. They know their limitations, injuries & personalities. No matter how much gameday film you review, you'll always be light years behind an in season coaching staff.

That can be a downside too. Some coaches get married to their players and can't see what the rest of the world can - Gailey putting the ball in Fitz's hand over Spiller's all last year is a classic example. Jauron refusing to play Steve Johnson being another.

[better days]

I have high hopes for Marrone but we will have to wait and see. Just because someone is an NFL coach doesn't mean crap though. They have to know football to be a head coach but it's how good they are compared to the rest of the guys in the league.

Did you trust Chan Gailey when he was hired even though many fans knew he was a lame duck loser from the start? Did you trust their opinion that Aaron Williams would be a good CB when they drafted him over Kapernick and Dalton when we already had a need at QB? Or maybe when we drafted Terrell Troupe over Gronkowski and Aaron Maybin when there were tons of good LB's on the board like Orakpo, Cushing and Matthews? Or how about all the other horrible decisions? They were paid to judge these guys and most random fans on the internet had a feeling from the beginning that they were horrible choices.

The point is just because they are in the NFL doesn't mean they will be good at their jobs. If that was the case then there wouldn't be as many firings as there are every year. It's how good they are compared to the rest of the league and for most of the Bills existence they have been the red headed step child out of the bunch.

I agree with you, I have high hopes for Marrone but we will have to wait & see. But I'm not willing to wait too long. If Marrone can't win at least 6 games this year, then IMO he needs to be fired at the end of the season.

6-10 SUCKS, but any worse than that is inexcusable.

And to those that say that is not enough time I say too bad. With the talent on this team if Marrone can't win 6 games this year, he is a bozo that will never get us anywhere.

[BillsFever21]

I agree with you, I have high hopes for Marrone but we will have to wait & see. But I'm not willing to wait too long. If Marrone can't win at least 6 games this year, then IMO he needs to be fired at the end of the season.

6-10 SUCKS, but any worse than that is inexcusable.

And to those that say that is not enough time I say too bad. With the talent on this team if Marrone can't win 6 games this year, he is a bozo that will never get us anywhere.

LOL. You are drastically overestimating the talent on this team compared to the rest of the league. It happens far to much with fans who think everyone on the team is truly better then they really are.

We will have either a raw rookie QB starting or a 29 year old QB who has a career losing record and has never stayed healthy for more then 5 straight games in his career.

We will have at least three rookies at WR and another one as a 2nd year player. Our established receiver is good but he is far off from one of the dominant WR's in the game.

Our OL is solid but there isn't much depth and we will have a new starting guard. The RB position is the only true proven strength on the team that you can compare with other top RB's in the league.

Our defense has a new system being installed by a rookie DC. Not in title but by actually doing the job on his own.

Our DL is good on paper and should be the strength of the defense if they show up and play as their capable of.

Our LB unit may be one of the worse in the league. We don't have one proven established legitimate starter at LB assuming that Williams is staying on the DL. If he doesn't then that weakens our DL some. Even if he does play LB it will mostly be mainly as a puss rusher. The rest of unit is a combination of a pile of junk, average players at best and a rookie that we hope will play well.

The secondary has one proven star in Byrd and another hopeful legitimate starter if Gilmore can take the next step. Outside of that we have nothing but average at best players and most of the depth is lucky to be average.

With all of that if you can truly think that this roster compares with some of the top playoff teams in the league then you have the rose colored glasses syndrome. Throw in the fact that we have a rookie HC leading the troops who has never even been a true OC in the NFL and the same with the DC along with inexperienced assistance coaches throughout the rest of the team I would bet you any amount of money that this isn't a team ready for the playoffs.

Even if Marrone turns into a good coach it will take more then this season. As long as we're seeing progress from our players throughout the season along with signs that the systems have potential and most importantly we're not seeing boneheaded gameday decisions and lack of adjustments by him that will be a good start.

Any first time coach deserves more then one year. This isn't the 49ers roster that just needed a good coach and system to harness the talent. There are far too many holes on this team. I'll be happy with six wins if we're showing progress and we're not giving away games due to repeatedly lousy decisions by the coaching staff during the game like we did with Gailey.

[justasportsfan]

I agree with you, I have high hopes for Marrone but we will have to wait & see. But I'm not willing to wait too long. If Marrone can't win at least 6 games this year, then IMO he needs to be fired at the end of the season.

6-10 SUCKS, but any worse than that is inexcusable.

And to those that say that is not enough time I say too bad. With the talent on this team if Marrone can't win 6 games this year, he is a bozo that will never get us anywhere.

this is where you and I disagree. BB went 5-11 with Pats having had prior HC job experience . Drew and co. were not a bad team talent wise. Neither Kolb nor EJ are Drew.

Defensively, the Pats' D ranked 8th the year before BB took over. Offensively they were 18th. The bills were ranked 19th last yaer but the offense is pretty much overhauled in the passing game at the qb and receiver positions.

Expecting a rookie HC to do better than BB is asking too much. As long s were in the game and not getting our arse handed to us, I'm okay in his first year if we go 5-11

[Albany,n.y.]

I agree with you, I have high hopes for Marrone but we will have to wait & see. But I'm not willing to wait too long. If Marrone can't win at least 6 games this year, then IMO he needs to be fired at the end of the season.

6-10 SUCKS, but any worse than that is inexcusable.

And to those that say that is not enough time I say too bad. With the talent on this team if Marrone can't win 6 games this year, he is a bozo that will never get us anywhere.

You can't put a number down before the season starts & say if a coach doesn't attain it he should be fired. Look at multi Super Bowl winning coaches like Walsh, Parcells, Landry & J Johnson. Under your criteria, they would all have been fired after one season because all 4 of them had horrible records. Parcells, in fact, almost was fired-the only thing that saved him was Howard Schnellenberger didn't want to coach the Giants.

In a year that the team's main job is building towards the future & developing EJ Manuel into a franchise QB or seeing enough to draft another QB, the record is irrelevant. If the light comes on early for Manuel, the W-L record will be decent. If he has growing pains, the W-L record will suck. I'll have a lot more respect for Marrone if he goes 5-11 but at the same time develops EJ into a QB I can see getting to the playoffs in his 2nd year, than if he wins 6 or 7 games with Kolb at QB & we have no idea if EJ can be a productive NFL QB. I'd rather go through the growing pains of the rookie QB learning on the job than looking to win 2 more games and not know enough about EJ when the season ends.

I think you think we have a lot more talent than we do. We have one proven receiver, one proven TE who is coming off a major injury, a big ? at LG, we don't know if Byrd will be there, no depth at LB, a secondary with Leodis McKelvin a likely starter at CB, and either a rookie kicker or an over the hill one. The only positions we have a decent amount of proven talent is DL & RB.

Unless a coach is a total boob, like Hank Bullough was (I wanted him fired after the 1985 season-we'd seen enough) a coach's most important season is his 2nd, not his 1st. The record in season 1 doesn't matter. It's the direction he has the team going in. If he's doing it right, it's season #2 that things come together. Look at Marv-his 1st year was half a season where he went 2-5, then he went 6-6 in real games his 1st full year, which was marred by the strike where he was 1-2 for a 7-8 season & 12-4 & in the AFC Championship game in his 2nd full year. I'll judge Marrone on 2014 before I call him a bozo. I expect a playoff run in 2014, but I don't care about the W-L record in 2013 if the team looks like it's headed in the right direction. Now if he starts acting like Hank Bullough, then I might change my mind after 2013, but so far there's no indication that he's the 2nd coming of Hank Bullough.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

LOL. You are drastically overestimating the talent on this team compared to the rest of the league. It happens far to much with fans who think everyone on the team is truly better then they really are.

We will have either a raw rookie QB starting or a 29 year old QB who has a career losing record and has never stayed healthy for more then 5 straight games in his career.

We will have at least three rookies at WR and another one as a 2nd year player. Our established receiver is good but he is far off from one of the dominant WR's in the game.

Our OL is solid but there isn't much depth and we will have a new starting guard. The RB position is the only true proven strength on the team that you can compare with other top RB's in the league.

Our defense has a new system being installed by a rookie DC. Not in title but by actually doing the job on his own.

Our DL is good on paper and should be the strength of the defense if they show up and play as their capable of.

Our LB unit may be one of the worse in the league. We don't have one proven established legitimate starter at LB assuming that Williams is staying on the DL. If he doesn't then that weakens our DL some. Even if he does play LB it will mostly be mainly as a puss rusher. The rest of unit is a combination of a pile of junk, average players at best and a rookie that we hope will play well.

The secondary has one proven star in Byrd and another hopeful legitimate starter if Gilmore can take the next step. Outside of that we have nothing but average at best players and most of the depth is lucky to be average.

With all of that if you can truly think that this roster compares with some of the top playoff teams in the league then you have the rose colored glasses syndrome. Throw in the fact that we have a rookie HC leading the troops who has never even been a true OC in the NFL and the same with the DC along with inexperienced assistance coaches throughout the rest of the team I would bet you any amount of money that this isn't a team ready for the playoffs.

Even if Marrone turns into a good coach it will take more then this season. As long as we're seeing progress from our players throughout the season along with signs that the systems have potential and most importantly we're not seeing boneheaded gameday decisions and lack of adjustments by him that will be a good start.

Any first time coach deserves more then one year. This isn't the 49ers roster that just needed a good coach and system to harness the talent. There are far too many holes on this team. I'll be happy with six wins if we're showing progress and we're not giving away games due to repeatedly lousy decisions by the coaching staff during the game like we did with Gailey.

if kolb plays like he did last year, and he has a way better oline, we can win 9-10 imo for sure unless the injury bug severely hits the team. depth on the oline is fine, zebrie sanders started 50 games for fl state, erik pears a solid starter is the top backup at ot, and legursky and young are adequate backups who played in many big games... really? as far as talent on d, we are as good as anyone imo. its was the coaching. a great example I will give is college but nonetheless a major program and perfect example. from 08-010 Michigan had great recruits on d, but was for intents and purposes the worst Michigan d of all time and worst out of any bcs team. it was bizzare... change coaches, and in their 1st year they were a top 15 d... the Texans d had an analogous experience with wade Phillips... ill leave it at that, the talent on d is awesome imo... offense, its kolb, and we have an up and coming deep threat graham and a solid top 15 wr in stevie and a top 10 oline ( and the oline could be even better if they stay healthy)... I just don't you realize that fitz really kept the vertical nature of our o limited and our d was not only the worst in football because of coaching, but the worst in bills history statistically. either way, if kolb is playing, and we get a little lucky, maybe a couple guys break out- which is normal, then we can challenge in this division and be good.

- - - Updated - - -

there is no excuses man...