overestimating/underestimating players

[better days]

I have been accused of overestimating the quality of the players on the Bills roster. I think with decent coaching & the talent on this team, the Bills should have a record of 8-8 or better. I think many on this board are overestimating the talent of the Pats* roster & underestimating the Bills.

Lets look at the Pats* roster.................

Tom Brady: Will be 36 years old when the season starts & despite what many people think, age is catching up to him. And he is not a tough guy like Jim Kelly, he is a pussy as evidenced by the play he threw up his leg while sliding in the playoffs last year. He is not the player he was 6 years ago. He no longer hangs tough in the pocket & his arm is not as strong as it was.

The Pats* receivers: With Hernandez in prison & Gronk out until maybe week 8, I don't think the Pats* have a TE as good as Chandler on their roster when the season opens.

Donald Jones: Hands of stone, FAILED when counted on last year after Nelson was lost for the year. After he drops the ball in NE like he did in Buffalo, Brady will only throw him the ball as a last resort.

Danny Amendola: A good receiver, but made of glass. Will most likely be healthy the first game.............unless he is injured in preseason.

Aaron Dobson : Never had over 700 yds in a season while playing at Marshall.................didn't exactly face SEC defenses week after week & now he is going to face NFL defenses.

The Pats* defense:

Wilfork, Mayo & Talib, the rest of that defense is composed of JAGS.

I really believe the Bills will win the opening game in Buffalo. Can't wait.

[justasportsfan]

I think we can beat the Pats too . They are not the same team when it comes to talent offensively, but their coaches are still proven compared to ours. I won't overestimate their talent, but I won't underestimate their coaching staff.

[HAMMER]

Frickin hilarious, it never fails, every summer for the last ten years this thread pops up. Every year the result has been the same. I guess one of these years it will change. Throw enough crap at the wall and one day it will stick.

[better days]

Frickin hilarious, it never fails, every summer for the last ten years this thread pops up. Every year the result has been the same. I guess one of these years it will change. Throw enough crap at the wall and one day it will stick.

Well, as I said, Brady is NOT the QB he was 6 years ago, let alone 10 years ago. And the Pats* do not have the talent they had 6 years ago, let alone 10 years ago. Or even last year. This is NO CRAP.

[HAMMER]

Well, as I said, Brady is NOT the QB he was 6 years ago, let alone 10 years ago. And the Pats* do not have the talent they had 6 years ago, let alone 10 years ago. Or even last year. This is NO CRAP.

Maybe you should take your head out of your azz, the last two years were career highs in passing yards for Brady, looks like he has gotten better to me.

2011-5235 yds
2012-4827 yds
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00.htm#passing::none

[better days]

Maybe you should take your head out of your azz, the last two years were career highs in passing yards for Brady, looks like he has gotten better to me.

2011-5235 yds
2012-4827 yds
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00.htm#passing::none

Well, excuse me, I did not realize games were won by total yards. I thought it was POINTS on the board. And I suppose Welker, Gronk & Hernandez did not play any part in those yards. All three of those players will not be on the field opening day.

And yes I know the Pats* were 12-4 last year & Brady had 34 TD passes, but he was playing against some terrible defenses & 6 wins were against TERRIBLE AFC East teams.

This will be the first time in 10 years Brady faces 3 AGGRESSIVE Defenses in the AFC East. And he has NO WEAPONS to help him.

[Albany,n.y.]

Donald Jones won't make the team, or at best will be one of the inactives. I have no idea why some people think he will get any playing time on opening day. Amendola, Jenkins, Edleman & Hawkins have already shown more than Jones in their NFL careers. Now throw in 2nd round pick Dobson & 4th round pick Boyce and Donald Jones is nothing more than a body in camp.

Ballard is as good or better than Chandler when both are healthy. Both are huge ?s.

Brady a pussy? Only in your dreams. He might not show the toughness of Kelly, but then again he's taken a lot fewer shots to the head by in your words being a pussy or in other words, playing smarter & protecting his body better than Kelly did. Brady also didn't take the beating early in his career that Kelly took in the USFL.

Now with last year's TEs gone NE is weaker & we have a puncher's chance because NE is most vulnerable in September, but we still have a long way to go. Our best chance-EJ starts & lights it up since NE will have no NFL film on him. You may be right on the win, but not for the reasons you've given.

[HAMMER]

Well, excuse me, I did not realize games were won by total yards. I thought it was POINTS on the board. And I suppose Welker, Gronk & Hernandez did not play any part in those yards. All three of those players will not be on the field opening day.

And yes I know the Pats* were 12-4 last year & Brady had 34 TD passes, but he was playing against some terrible defenses & 6 wins were against TERRIBLE AFC East teams.

This will be the first time in 10 years Brady faces 3 AGGRESSIVE Defenses in the AFC East. And he has NO WEAPONS to help him.
Do you really think that Belichick would go into a season with no weapons? Losing Hernandez and Welker will not cause the Pats to disintegrate. I too hope they are worse and that we can beat them twice but you need to wake up and smell the coffee. We have Kevin Kolb and a rookie for QB's. We have a rookie head coach installing new systems in all phases. Do you really believe that we will be better than the NE Patriots? I didn't think so.

[jimmifli]

The difference between teams that are 6-10 and 10-6 is pretty slim. A few bounces, strength of schedule, injuries, coaching, intangibles etc... all have a bigger impact than talent level. Teams that are worse than that are so devoid of talent, that even some help with an easy schedule or good coaching wasn't going to get them to the playoffs. Teams that are better, have so much talent they can overcome some deficits in those areas.

For the last decade the Bills' have been mostly in that middle of the pack that could have finished with a winning record, or even 10-6. But we've rarely had an easy schedule (because the Pats have been so good) and we've had terrible coaching.

This year isn't that much different, in terms of talent we're middle of the pack (towards the bottom of that group). It remains to be seen how good our coaching is, if we get lucky with injuries, if our schedule is as hard as it looks and if we get some lucky bounces. If those things happen, then yes 10-6 is possible and a wild card spot.

[Mr. Pink]

LMAO

The Pats will win 10+

The Bills will lose 10+

But keep drinking the koolaid and think we've closed the gap.

[justasportsfan]

Welker, Lloyd, Hernandez and Gronk were 90% of the Pats receiving (stats ) game last year. I doubt Amendola and co. can just come in cover that . Their new receiving corps is a big "?" but our coaching staff is a bigger "? ". We have a little bit of the element of surprise since BB doesn't know our coaching staff. Question is, are both Marrone and Hackett going to pleasantly surprise us, or surprisingly disappoint us?

If the saying "anything is better than Chan and Wanny" holds true, we have a chance. Otherwise, it will take time before our new coaching staff can make this a cohesive unit.

[better days]

Maybe you should take your head out of your azz, the last two years were career highs in passing yards for Brady, looks like he has gotten better to me.

2011-5235 yds
2012-4827 yds
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00.htm#passing::none

And if you really think Brady put up the numbers he did the last two years was because he got better & not because he had Gronk, Welker & Hernandez to throw to, you are the one that needs to take their head out of their azz.

And Fitz would have had career years the last two years if he had those three to throw to.

[SABURZFAN]

I have been accused of overestimating the quality of the players on the Bills roster. I think with decent coaching & the talent on this team, the Bills should have a record of 8-8 or better. I think many on this board are overestimating the talent of the Pats* roster & underestimating the Bills.

Lets look at the Pats* roster.................

Tom Brady: Will be 36 years old when the season starts & despite what many people think, age is catching up to him. And he is not a tough guy like Jim Kelly, he is a pussy as evidenced by the play he threw up his leg while sliding in the playoffs last year. He is not the player he was 6 years ago. He no longer hangs tough in the pocket & his arm is not as strong as it was.

The Pats* receivers: With Hernandez in prison & Gronk out until maybe week 8, I don't think the Pats* have a TE as good as Chandler on their roster when the season opens.

Donald Jones: Hands of stone, FAILED when counted on last year after Nelson was lost for the year. After he drops the ball in NE like he did in Buffalo, Brady will only throw him the ball as a last resort.

Danny Amendola: A good receiver, but made of glass. Will most likely be healthy the first game.............unless he is injured in preseason.

Aaron Dobson : Never had over 700 yds in a season while playing at Marshall.................didn't exactly face SEC defenses week after week & now he is going to face NFL defenses.

The Pats* defense:

Wilfork, Mayo & Talib, the rest of that defense is composed of JAGS.

I really believe the Bills will win the opening game in Buffalo. Can't wait.


me neither. with your history of being wrong, betting the Pats Money Line will make me a few bucks. thanks.... :up:

[SpikedLemonade]

LMAO

The Pats will win 10+

The Bills will lose 10+

But keep drinking the koolaid and think we've closed the gap.

I just hate that so many homers are better fans than me.

[better days]

Do you really think that Belichick would go into a season with no weapons? Losing Hernandez and Welker will not cause the Pats to disintegrate. I too hope they are worse and that we can beat them twice but you need to wake up and smell the coffee. We have Kevin Kolb and a rookie for QB's. We have a rookie head coach installing new systems in all phases. Do you really believe that we will be better than the NE Patriots? I didn't think so.

Belichick did not plan on losing Welker or Hernandez. The Pats* were sure Welker would resign even at the lowball number they threw out at him. I doubt ANYBODY saw the Hernandez situation coming.

NOBODY knows when Gronk will be back healthy or how effective he will be when he is able to play.

Wake up & smell the coffee. Do you really believe Brady will put up the kind of numbers next year throwing to Amendola, Jones, Dobson, Ballard & Fells that he put up the last two years? I didn't think so.

[SpikedLemonade]

Has this guy ever been right about the Bills?

[mayotm]

I just hate that so many homers are better fans than me.
There is a difference between a 'homer' and whatever the hell Better Days is.

[better days]

Donald Jones won't make the team, or at best will be one of the inactives. I have no idea why some people think he will get any playing time on opening day. Amendola, Jenkins, Edleman & Hawkins have already shown more than Jones in their NFL careers. Now throw in 2nd round pick Dobson & 4th round pick Boyce and Donald Jones is nothing more than a body in camp.

Ballard is as good or better than Chandler when both are healthy. Both are huge ?s.

Brady a pussy? Only in your dreams. He might not show the toughness of Kelly, but then again he's taken a lot fewer shots to the head by in your words being a pussy or in other words, playing smarter & protecting his body better than Kelly did. Brady also didn't take the beating early in his career that Kelly took in the USFL.

Now with last year's TEs gone NE is weaker & we have a puncher's chance because NE is most vulnerable in September, but we still have a long way to go. Our best chance-EJ starts & lights it up since NE will have no NFL film on him. You may be right on the win, but not for the reasons you've given.

I listen to WEEI Boston & the official Pats* podcast on occasion to get the Pats* perspective. I have been listening more lately because of the Hernandez situation. The Pats* are COUNTING on Donald Jones to be their downfield threat. They have nobody else on the team with the speed Jones has.

Amendola: an injury waiting to happen, good when healthy which is not very often.
Jenkins: A BUST since Atlanta drafted him in the 1st rnd in 04. The Vikings CUT him after signing him the year before & he put up 449 yds on 40 catches.
Edleman: a GOOD special teams player. He has had a chance to play WR in NE & FAILED.
Hawkins??????????????? He is not even listed as being on the roster by Lindys.


Brady is SMART, I will give him that, but YES he is the BIGGEST PUSSY starting at QB in the NFL. And if you know of a bigger one, name him. I have heard a NUMBER of his own Pats* fans call him a pussy.

[better days]

Has this guy ever been right about the Bills?

Have you ever been right about ANYTHING?

[better days]

There is a difference between a 'homer' and whatever the hell Better Days is.

I guess you can call me a realist.

[mayotm]

I guess you can call me a realist.Ha, not exactly what I was thinking.

[better days]

Ha, not exactly what I was thinking.

I didn't really think so. I will cop to being a Homer.

But I do my best to be respectful & not insult other people unless they insult me first.

[SpikedLemonade]

Have you ever been right about ANYTHING?

Regarding the Bills?

Yup

[better days]

Regarding the Bills?

Yup

Even a broken clock is right twice a day, a blind squirrel finds a nut on occasion...............etc.

[SABURZFAN]

Has this guy ever been right about the Bills?


no.

[SABURZFAN]

I guess you can call me a realist.


i was thinking jerkoff.

[BillsFever21]

I listen to WEEI Boston & the official Pats* podcast on occasion to get the Pats* perspective. I have been listening more lately because of the Hernandez situation. The Pats* are COUNTING on Donald Jones to be their downfield threat. They have nobody else on the team with the speed Jones has.

Amendola: an injury waiting to happen, good when healthy which is not very often.
Jenkins: A BUST since Atlanta drafted him in the 1st rnd in 04. The Vikings CUT him after signing him the year before & he put up 449 yds on 40 catches.
Edleman: a GOOD special teams player. He has had a chance to play WR in NE & FAILED.
Hawkins??????????????? He is not even listed as being on the roster by Lindys.


Brady is SMART, I will give him that, but YES he is the BIGGEST PUSSY starting at QB in the NFL. And if you know of a bigger one, name him. I have heard a NUMBER of his own Pats* fans call him a pussy.

Kevin Kolb. Now that guy is a pussy. He's lucky to make it through one game.

Considering that the only time Brady has ever missed a game is when he blew his knee out he can't be that much of a pussy when it comes to playing. He may not like to get hit but which QB does? At least he gets back up from them.

I love how an injury prone Amendola is risky for the Pats and there isn't any chance he will stay healthy because he never has in the NFL. When it comes to Kevin Kolb though with some around here it's just bad luck or other players fault and his past injury history doesn't have any bearing on this season.

[better days]

Kevin Kolb. Now that guy is a pussy. He's lucky to make it through one game.

Considering that the only time Brady has ever missed a game is when he blew his knee out he can't be that much of a pussy when it comes to playing. He may not like to get hit but which QB does? At least he gets back up from them.

I love how an injury prone Amendola is risky for the Pats and there isn't any chance he will stay healthy because he never has in the NFL. When it comes to Kevin Kolb though with some around here it's just bad luck or other players fault and his past injury history doesn't have any bearing on this season.

There is a DIFFERENCE between being injury prone & being a pussy.

Kolb is injury prone, & I myself have NEVER dismissed that.

Brady is a Pussy. The only QB I can compare him to in that regard is Trent Edwards, but Trent is no longer a starting QB.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

So are we just gonna argue about Brady and Donald Jones and let ridiculous statements like this slide?
Wilfork, Mayo & Talib, the rest of that defense is composed of JAGS.
So, do Ninkovich, Chandler Jones, Brandon Spikes, Alfonzo Dennard, and Devin McCourty not count or something? They have young talent like Hightower and Arrington that could come around as well. Somehow only our guys develop though. Interesting.

[better days]

So are we just gonna argue about Brady and Donald Jones and let ridiculous statements like this slide?
So, do Ninkovich, Chandler Jones, Brandon Spikes, Alfonzo Dennard, and Devin McCourty not count or something? They have young talent like Hightower and Arrington that could come around as well. Somehow only our guys develop though. Interesting.

So you are saying those guys make the Pro Bowl? Interesting. If they don't make the Pro Bowl, they are Jags. EASILY REPLACED. You just can not replace an entire team of Jags in a year or two, hence the reason it took Nix time to rebuild the Bills.

[alohabillsfan]

Pats + Brady verse Bills + Kolb, And you think the Bills win? This is a QB league period. Ours sucks theirs is going to Canton, nuff said....

[better days]

Pats + Brady verse Bills + Kolb, And you think the Bills win? This is a QB league period. Ours sucks theirs is going to Canton, nuff said....

I'm not saying it is a lock, but I like the Bills chances at home on opening day of the season with Belicheat having no film to study.

I think Brady's wife, Supermodel Gisele understands the game of football BETTER than MANY on this board. "You have to catch the ball when you're supposed to catch the ball. My husband can not F--king throw the ball and catch the ball at the same time."

Despite what MANY on this board seem to think, Football is a TEAM game. Brady CAN NOT do it alone.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

So you are saying those guys make the Pro Bowl? Interesting. If they don't make the Pro Bowl, they are Jags. EASILY REPLACED. You just can not replace an entire team of Jags in a year or two, hence the reason it took Nix time to rebuild the Bills.
You literally think only Pro Bowlers are worth anything? And you're pimping the BILLS roster? Do you listen to yourself? The Pats had a top 10 scoring defense last year and return nearly every piece. The Bills had one of the worst defenses in league history, changed schemes, and replaced several starters with rookies or position switches. And you think we improved and the Pats are a bunch of jags. Unreal.

[Mr. Pink]

Every year some idiot makes this thread.

Every year we're bottom feeders and the Pats are the class of the division.

At some point, the idiots are gonna be right. Likely when Brady retires.

Call Brady a pussy all you want but he makes the players around him better, he's a top tier QB in this league who's succeeded with the likes of Deion Branch. What do we have? A guy that infuriated a top WR, Fitzgerald, and constantly got hurt.

They have an offense that puts up points and a middle of the pack defense. We have an offense that outside of Spiller does nothing and a defense that's not just swiss cheese but the Grand Canyon.

Yeah, we're so close to closing that gap between us and we'll easily beat them week 1. Pigs might fly too.

[BillsFever21]

Every year some idiot makes this thread.

Every year we're bottom feeders and the Pats are the class of the division.

At some point, the idiots are gonna be right. Likely when Brady retires.

Call Brady a pussy all you want but he makes the players around him better, he's a top tier QB in this league who's succeeded with the likes of Deion Branch. What do we have? A guy that infuriated a top WR, Fitzgerald, and constantly got hurt.

They have an offense that puts up points and a middle of the pack defense. We have an offense that outside of Spiller does nothing and a defense that's not just swiss cheese but the Grand Canyon.

Yeah, we're so close to closing that gap between us and we'll easily beat them week 1. Pigs might fly too.

And when they finally do have a bad season they will be on here to tell everyone how they predicted...10 years later.

[BillsFever21]

Hell I remember last year a couple jokers starting threads that the Pats were done after they were 1-2 on the season right before we played them. At the same time they said we were going to be better because we were 2-1 and we could take control of the division with a win that weekend. All that after an entire one game lead after 3 games into the season and we all know how the rest of it turned out.

I think the same clowns called it again after they fell to 3-3 after the Seahawks beat them. They only went on to win 7 games in a row after that. I hope they're not they betting type.

[better days]

You literally think only Pro Bowlers are worth anything? And you're pimping the BILLS roster? Do you listen to yourself? The Pats had a top 10 scoring defense last year and return nearly every piece. The Bills had one of the worst defenses in league history, changed schemes, and replaced several starters with rookies or position switches. And you think we improved and the Pats are a bunch of jags. Unreal.

Not unreal at all. How many times have people on this board said you can plug anybody into the Pats* system & they will win?

Those people are correct for the most part. The Pats* have a Great system on DEFENSE. They also have a good to great system on offense, but they also have a GREAT QB ( much as I hate him ) in Brady, but Brady can not do it alone.
It is one thing to have players that are less than Pro Bowlers like Deion Branch & Brandon Lloyd. It is another to have MEDIOCRE players like Donald Jones & Michael Jenkins.

Do you expect Donald Jones & Michael Jenkins to put up similar numbers Welker & Lloyd put up last year? Especially without Hernandez & Gronk on the field?

Who will replace the 1,354 yds & 6 TDs Welker put up last year & the 911 yds & 4 TDs Lloyd put up?

Who will replace the 483 Yds & 5 TDs Hernandez put up in 10 games last year?

Or the 790 yds & 11 TDs Gronk put up last year? Do you expect Gronk to match or better those numbers this year? I don't.

[better days]

i was thinking jerkoff.

I like to think of myself as the ying to Ops yang. I also think I have more football knowledge than many people on this board.

I enjoy discussing the Bills with other fans, especially those with a different viewpoint like Op, but if SABUREZFAN or Spiked Lemonade or anyone else think I'm a jerkoff please feel free to put me on ignore.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Not unreal at all. How many times have people on this board said you can plug anybody into the Pats* system & they will win? I've only ever heard that about the Pats offense but I'll take your word for it.


Those people are correct for the most part. So what's the argument?
Brady can not do it alone. But he's not alone. He still has guys like Ballard, Amendola, and Ridley. Are they as good as he had before? No, but you are underestimating how far ahead of the pack they were last year. If they scored 100 fewer points they would still be a Top 3 offense. Yet you are treating it like the Patriots, who had a top 10 defense, one of the best offenses in NFL history, and were a half of football away from the Super Bowl last year, are the ones who have something to prove against Buffalo.

[better days]

I've only ever heard that about the Pats offense but I'll take your word for it.

So what's the argument? But he's not alone. He still has guys like Ballard, Amendola, and Ridley. Are they as good as he had before? No, but you are underestimating how far ahead of the pack they were last year. If they scored 100 fewer points they would still be a Top 3 offense. Yet you are treating it like the Patriots, who had a top 10 defense, one of the best offenses in NFL history, and were a half of football away from the Super Bowl last year, are the ones who have something to prove against Buffalo.

I did not say I expect the Bills to win the Division. I said I think the Bills will win on opening day. HUGE DIFFERENCE there. I agree the Pats* will most likely win the division, although I doubt they go any further than that.

[Mike]

This is not even an argument worth having. The Pats are so much further ahead that even their second team might beat us and it wouldn't be the first time the Bills lost to a bunch of backups.

As far as we know their backup QB might be better than any QB on our roster.

I would take Brady & Dany A. Over Stevie J and any Bills QB

Even their DLine outperformed our paper tiger!

Their LB are light years ahead of ours.

Forget about their secondary for a minute because it might not matter who they put back there against our very Raw QB & rookie WR.

- I fully expect the Pats to go to the playoffs.
- I have very little hope that the Bills will do the same

- I mostly expect the Pats to win the Division
- I think there is a better chance that I win on double 00 on the roulette table than the Bills winning the division

- I wouldn't be shocked if the Pats won the SB
- There is a greater chance that Pigs will fly than the Bills winning the SB

Overall who even cares about one game? It's about a whole body of work, a whole season, and the Playoffs. Even if the Bills somehow pull a rabbit out of a hat, will it mean anything or just another one game wonder, another tease?

[Albany,n.y.]

I listen to WEEI Boston & the official Pats* podcast on occasion to get the Pats* perspective. I have been listening more lately because of the Hernandez situation. The Pats* are COUNTING on Donald Jones to be their downfield threat. They have nobody else on the team with the speed Jones has.

Amendola: an injury waiting to happen, good when healthy which is not very often.
Jenkins: A BUST since Atlanta drafted him in the 1st rnd in 04. The Vikings CUT him after signing him the year before & he put up 449 yds on 40 catches.
Edleman: a GOOD special teams player. He has had a chance to play WR in NE & FAILED.
Hawkins??????????????? He is not even listed as being on the roster by Lindys.


Brady is SMART, I will give him that, but YES he is the BIGGEST PUSSY starting at QB in the NFL. And if you know of a bigger one, name him. I have heard a NUMBER of his own Pats* fans call him a pussy.

Lindys? Come on man, are you living in the 1980s? When you want to know who is on a team there's this thing called the internet & every team has a website. Nobody looks at a team's roster looking at Lindys. Now I will concede that Jones is listed at the top of their depth chart, but once BB sees him play, he'll elevate Dobson & end up cutting Jones before the opener.
As others have said, any QB who plays as many games as Brady & never wants to come out of the game, even when up 4 TDs is not a pussy.
One more thing, all your posts have that annoying *. Show some originality instead of copying something that rag the NY Post did years ago. Anything the NY Post does that others copy is a bad idea, no matter how clever you think it is.

[better days]

Lindys? Come on man, are you living in the 1980s? When you want to know who is on a team there's this thing called the internet & every team has a website. Nobody looks at a team's roster looking at Lindys. Now I will concede that Jones is listed at the top of their depth chart, but once BB sees him play, he'll elevate Dobson & end up cutting Jones before the opener.
As others have said, any QB who plays as many games as Brady & never wants to come out of the game, even when up 4 TDs is not a pussy.
One more thing, all your posts have that annoying *. Show some originality instead of copying something that rag the NY Post did years ago. Anything the NY Post does that others copy is a bad idea, no matter how clever you think it is.

I don't know what you are referring to about the NY Post. I must have missed that. I live in Fla not NY. I started using the asterisk* as soon as the Pats* were caught CHEATING. The baseball HOF put an asterisk behind Roger Marris's name because it took him more games to break Babe Ruths HR record & I think the Pats* deserve the asterisk for winning every Super Bowl they won by CHEATING.
Don't like it Pats* fan? Too bad because I will never stop using the asterisk.

As far as Hawkins goes, you said he showed more than Donald Jones. Very debatable, they both SUCK & were cut by their respective teams before the Pats* signed them. In any event, Hawkins is a slot receiver & will be competing with Amendola, Edelman & Boyce for a position. I doubt that he makes the final roster. As far as Jones goes, he SUCKS, but the Pats* have no other receiver with his speed on the roster.

Here is a question. Which player cut by the Bills will the Pats* sign to learn the Bills playbook? I will bet it is a WR & probably one with some speed. If the Pats* sign a WR with some speed, then Jones gets cut. And it is a lock that the Pats* will sign some former Bill before the first game.

As far as Brady being a pussy, MANY of his own fans call him that. FACT.

[better days]

This is not even an argument worth having. The Pats are so much further ahead that even their second team might beat us and it wouldn't be the first time the Bills lost to a bunch of backups.

As far as we know their backup QB might be better than any QB on our roster.

I would take Brady & Dany A. Over Stevie J and any Bills QB

Even their DLine outperformed our paper tiger!

Their LB are light years ahead of ours.

Forget about their secondary for a minute because it might not matter who they put back there against our very Raw QB & rookie WR.

- I fully expect the Pats to go to the playoffs.
- I have very little hope that the Bills will do the same

- I mostly expect the Pats to win the Division
- I think there is a better chance that I win on double 00 on the roulette table than the Bills winning the division

- I wouldn't be shocked if the Pats won the SB
- There is a greater chance that Pigs will fly than the Bills winning the SB

Overall who even cares about one game? It's about a whole body of work, a whole season, and the Playoffs. Even if the Bills somehow pull a rabbit out of a hat, will it mean anything or just another one game wonder, another tease?

Who cares about one game? I would expect every Bills fan at the game or watching it on TV CARES who wins the first game against the Pats*, otherwise why even watch if you don't care who wins?

[justasportsfan]

- I wouldn't be shocked if the Pats won the SB


I don't share Better days' homerism but I don't share your post either. They couldn't win the sb with Welker, Hernandez and Gronk. Danny A is NOT Welker and I doubt he'll ever catch for over 100 receptions due to his fragility.

I'll be surprised if the Pats even make it to the AFC championship.

[OpIv37]

You guys are wasting your time arguing with better days on this. I've had this conversation with him many times before and he won't be convinced, at least not until we get thrashed in the opener.

Here's the reality: with the loss of Welker and Hernandez, and Gronk likely being out for the opener, the Pats likely took a few steps back from where they were when we played them last year. But they were about 20 steps ahead to start with, so a few steps back doesn't put us equal to or ahead of them. And as Gronk comes back and their new WR's adjust, they will improve over the season. They won't be the juggernauts they've been in the past, but they should still win the div and a SB is not out of the question.

Meanwhile, while I'm cautiously optimistic that the Bills are doing the right things for the future, I think they have taken a step back in the short term. They have new systems on both sides of the ball and will be relying heavily on rookies. While NE has never had a look at our systems, our players will also go into the game with it being their first game in the new systems as well. So, at best that's a push. A team with new systems relying heavily on rookies is not going to compete with an established team like the Pats right out of the gate.

But, again, better days won't see it that way until it happens on the field.

[Albany,n.y.]

I don't know what you are referring to about the NY Post. I must have missed that. I live in Fla not NY. I started using the asterisk* as soon as the Pats* were caught CHEATING. The baseball HOF put an asterisk behind Roger Marris's name because it took him more games to break Babe Ruths HR record & I think the Pats* deserve the asterisk for winning every Super Bowl they won by CHEATING.
Don't like it Pats* fan? Too bad because I will never stop using the asterisk.

As far as Hawkins goes, you said he showed more than Donald Jones. Very debatable, they both SUCK & were cut by their respective teams before the Pats* signed them. In any event, Hawkins is a slot receiver & will be competing with Amendola, Edelman & Boyce for a position. I doubt that he makes the final roster. As far as Jones goes, he SUCKS, but the Pats* have no other receiver with his speed on the roster.

Here is a question. Which player cut by the Bills will the Pats* sign to learn the Bills playbook? I will bet it is a WR & probably one with some speed. If the Pats* sign a WR with some speed, then Jones gets cut. And it is a lock that the Pats* will sign some former Bill before the first game.

As far as Brady being a pussy, MANY of his own fans call him that. FACT.

It's the NY Post, not you who originated the *. You must have seen it somewhere & liked it, but I guarantee it's not an original idea on your part. The Post used to put the * next to the Patriots betting line & at the bottom it would read *-caught cheating. I hate it because the Post is a total rag. If you want to come up with an original thought & refer to the Patriots that way, go ahead, but your use of the * is nothing more than copying a rag of a paper's original idea. By the way, when I was in Florida they sold the Post at the Publix near my hotel.

[justasportsfan]

Everything depends on how good of coach Marrone is. He has some talent but most of which are potential talent.Question is can he play chess with BB? The Pats already have a proven queen in Brady. :D . We're not sure if we even have a rook or a bishop that can beat the queen that the Pats have proven to use wisely over the years.

[better days]

It's the NY Post, not you who originated the *. You must have seen it somewhere & liked it, but I guarantee it's not an original idea on your part. The Post used to put the * next to the Patriots betting line & at the bottom it would read *-caught cheating. I hate it because the Post is a total rag. If you want to come up with an original thought & refer to the Patriots that way, go ahead, but your use of the * is nothing more than copying a rag of a paper's original idea. By the way, when I was in Florida they sold the Post at the Publix near my hotel.

You are most likely right, I saw it somewhere, but not the NY Post. But it does not matter who started it IMO, it is fitting to have the asterisk behind the Pats* name & I will never stop using it myself.

[Jan Reimers]

I just hate that so many homers are better fans than me.

Actually, fans and homers are the same thing. Fan is short for fanatic, referring to someone who roots fanatically for, and believes fanatically in, his team.

Homer, until changed totally on this board, traditionally referred to an announcer, sports writer or other media type who openly rooted for his team like a fan, instead of being an objective play caller or writer or commentator.

In my case, I'm no longer really a true fan of the Bills - because my fanaticism has waned with all of the losing and front office incompetence - but I still like them and hope they win. I just don't invest as much time, money energy and emotion in them anymore, because it seems silly to root like hell for an organization that lacks the complete will to win.

[justasportsfan]

this is pretty much what we're banking on


NFC exec: Teams 'biting at the bit' to play Pats early

Belichick traditionally tinkers with his lineup a lot in the first two months, mixing and matching to find out what players he can count on after Thanksgiving, when he says the real season starts. There figures to be more experimenting than ever early this season.


Pats' regular-season record by month (since 2000)

Month Record Win Pct

September 25-17 .595
October 39-14 .736
November 36-16 .692
Dec/Jan 51-10 .836




http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000216926/article/nfc-exec-new-england-patriots-will-be-an-early-target

[better days]

You guys are wasting your time arguing with better days on this. I've had this conversation with him many times before and he won't be convinced, at least not until we get thrashed in the opener.

Here's the reality: with the loss of Welker and Hernandez, and Gronk likely being out for the opener, the Pats likely took a few steps back from where they were when we played them last year. But they were about 20 steps ahead to start with, so a few steps back doesn't put us equal to or ahead of them. And as Gronk comes back and their new WR's adjust, they will improve over the season. They won't be the juggernauts they've been in the past, but they should still win the div and a SB is not out of the question.

Meanwhile, while I'm cautiously optimistic that the Bills are doing the right things for the future, I think they have taken a step back in the short term. They have new systems on both sides of the ball and will be relying heavily on rookies. While NE has never had a look at our systems, our players will also go into the game with it being their first game in the new systems as well. So, at best that's a push. A team with new systems relying heavily on rookies is not going to compete with an established team like the Pats right out of the gate.

But, again, better days won't see it that way until it happens on the field.

I expect the Pats* to sign a player the Bills cut before the opener to get information out of him regarding the Bills playbook. Most likely a WR.

I like the Bills chances in the opener none the less. And the Bills may lose, that would not surprise me, but if they get thrashed I will not only be surprised, I will be TOTALLY PISSED OFF.

This game home field advantage will be HUGE as Billy & Caroline say.

[Historian]

This is a 4-12 team.

If they win five we'll have a party.

[k-oneputt]

The Bills won't get blown out in the opening game on their home field. This is the NFL not college. They may lose but they will not lose by the big score some of you are thinking.

[Mr. Pink]

The Bills won't get blown out in the opening game on their home field. This is the NFL not college. They may lose but they will not lose by the big score some of you are thinking.

Oh on opening day we'll lose by like 10. When we play the Pats later in the season we'll lose by 20+

Justa fully illustrated their philosophy in an earlier post. They mess around and tinker at the beginning of the year to figure out what's gonna work for them for the stretch run and playoffs.

[justasportsfan]

Justa fully illustrated their philosophy in an earlier post. They mess around and tinker at the beginning of the year to figure out what's gonna work for them for the stretch run and playoffs.

I'm hoping they don't have the talent to bounce back later in the season and be as potent as they have been the last few years. Without Gronk and Hernandez, they may have to revert back to the offense they had when Moss was there. Then again, they don't have Moss and Welker anymore either. They may have to run more but I'd rather they have an offense that will depend on the running game to make Brady successful.

[k-oneputt]

Oh on opening day we'll lose by like 10. When we play the Pats later in the season we'll lose by 20+

Justa fully illustrated their philosophy in an earlier post. They mess around and tinker at the beginning of the year to figure out what's gonna work for them for the stretch run and playoffs. And they may win the game. You rarely see an NFL team get blown out on their home field early in a season. The talent level in the NFL is very close team to team. This isn't Alabama playing Notre Dame {Joking} or a Toledo.

[k-oneputt]

They are catching the Pats at the right time. And they are one hit away from .500.

[SpikedLemonade]

This is a 4-12 team.

If they win five we'll have a party.

I can't even see 4 wins.

[stuckincincy]

I can't even see 4 wins.

Maybe more - or less. They've jiggered the rules so much the past several years, sometimes it's better to be lucky than to be good.

[better days]

This is a 4-12 team.

If they win five we'll have a party.

This is the reason I started this thread. I disagree with you people that think 4 wins or less is to be expected or it is acceptable. IMO, I don't expect that & will not accept it. I'm not saying the Bills go 12-4, but I think 8-8 is a realistic number to expect.

[OpIv37]

This is the reason I started this thread. I disagree with you people that think 4 wins or less is to be expected or it is acceptable. IMO, I don't expect that & will not accept it. I'm not saying the Bills go 12-4, but I think 8-8 is a realistic number to expect.
Based on what? It's a rookie coach instituting new systems on both sides of the ball, and the only real talent added was potential talent in terms of completely unproven rookies.

The only way this team wins 8 games is if the players can execute the new systems well immediately, and a majority of the rookies reach their full potential immediately. That's just not a realistic expectation.

Hell, justasportsfan is on the optimistic side by his own admission and even he doesn't share your optimism to that degree.

[justasportsfan]

Hell, justasportsfan is on the optimistic side by his own admission and even he doesn't share your optimism to that degree.

cautiously optimistic..... 11-5 :D

[better days]

Based on what? It's a rookie coach instituting new systems on both sides of the ball, and the only real talent added was potential talent in terms of completely unproven rookies.

The only way this team wins 8 games is if the players can execute the new systems well immediately, and a majority of the rookies reach their full potential immediately. That's just not a realistic expectation.

Hell, justasportsfan is on the optimistic side by his own admission and even he doesn't share your optimism to that degree.

I base 8-8 on a number of things. Chan was able to win 6 games last year with Wanny as the DC. The only talented player the Bills lost was Levitre.

NOT TRUE that the Rookies were the only talent added. Manny Lawson, Alan Branch, Jerry Hughes are real talent that will help the Bills.

I also expect some of the Rookies to make a real contribution to help the team as well as some 2nd year players like TJ Graham.

New systems on both sides of the ball is a HUGE PLUS IMO, not a negative. Even if they don't have it down cold for half the season, I expect the defense to play MUCH BETTER than last year from the first game.

And Jim Kelly said he has watched Kolb & Manuel & he said they both throw the ball VERY, VERY WELL. I NEVER heard him say that about Fitz.

With an improved defense, and better QB play, I think two wins more than last year are to be expected & I don't care if the players have to learn it. I disagree that it will take an entire season to learn a new system.

[Mr. Pink]

This is the reason I started this thread. I disagree with you people that think 4 wins or less is to be expected or it is acceptable. IMO, I don't expect that & will not accept it. I'm not saying the Bills go 12-4, but I think 8-8 is a realistic number to expect.


I base 8-8 on a number of things. Chan was able to win 6 games last year with Wanny as the DC. The only talented player the Bills lost was Levitre.




And people, likely yourself, were saying Dick Jauron was able to get 7 wins out of the roster and he was horrendous...so Gailey should at least get 8-9 wins. What happened? Regression.

Regression is natural when you change coaches, change systems, change vital parts within the system. Players need to learn. Players need to perform and compliment each other within a new system with no assignments. We have an injury prone QB and a rookie. Both still need to learn, not only the playbook and system we implement offensively, but playing on a regular basis in the NFL.

Put all the NEW against how ridiculously tough the schedule is and 5 wins would be a great year for year one of Marrone.

I'm expecting 3-4 wins, to be honest. I wanna see a rookie QB not look like a total disaster because he will have to play at least half the year. I wanna see a defense no longer resemble the worst defense in the history of the NFL. It's about taking steps to regain relevancy. If your thinking is this is an 8-8 team that can compete, you're gonna be sorely disappointed and think the year is a failure.

Now if we're in the 2015 training camp/preseason mode and we're not competing, then this staff will be another failure. But the only thing we'll be competing for this year is a top 5 pick.

[better days]

And people, likely yourself, were saying Dick Jauron was able to get 7 wins out of the roster and he was horrendous...so Gailey should at least get 8-9 wins. What happened? Regression.

Regression is natural when you change coaches, change systems, change vital parts within the system. Players need to learn. Players need to perform and compliment each other within a new system with no assignments. We have an injury prone QB and a rookie. Both still need to learn, not only the playbook and system we implement offensively, but playing on a regular basis in the NFL.

Put all the NEW against how ridiculously tough the schedule is and 5 wins would be a great year for year one of Marrone.

I'm expecting 3-4 wins, to be honest. I wanna see a rookie QB not look like a total disaster because he will have to play at least half the year. I wanna see a defense no longer resemble the worst defense in the history of the NFL. It's about taking steps to regain relevancy. If your thinking is this is an 8-8 team that can compete, you're gonna be sorely disappointed and think the year is a failure.

Now if we're in the 2015 training camp/preseason mode and we're not competing, then this staff will be another failure. But the only thing we'll be competing for this year is a top 5 pick.

Well, yes the Bills regressed under Chan.

I think the reason that happened is POOR SCHEME/Coaching. Chan could not find a decent DC to save his Job.

If the Bills regress again under Marrone, I will chalk it up to more bad coaching.

[BillsFever21]

I base 8-8 on a number of things. Chan was able to win 6 games last year with Wanny as the DC. The only talented player the Bills lost was Levitre.

NOT TRUE that the Rookies were the only talent added. Manny Lawson, Alan Branch, Jerry Hughes are real talent that will help the Bills.

I also expect some of the Rookies to make a real contribution to help the team as well as some 2nd year players like TJ Graham.

New systems on both sides of the ball is a HUGE PLUS IMO, not a negative. Even if they don't have it down cold for half the season, I expect the defense to play MUCH BETTER than last year from the first game.

And Jim Kelly said he has watched Kolb & Manuel & he said they both throw the ball VERY, VERY WELL. I NEVER heard him say that about Fitz.

With an improved defense, and better QB play, I think two wins more than last year are to be expected & I don't care if the players have to learn it. I disagree that it will take an entire season to learn a new system.

Are you serious? It's not like we just added 3 great players. Lawson has been an average starter at best his entire career. He has 18 career sacks in 7 season as a "pass rushing LB" with few tackles. He is a notch above a dime a dozen player. Branch is an average starter or a decent rotational DL at best and Jerry Hughes has been a bust so far. We got him for Sheppard for gods sake. That should tell you something.

To think that them guys is going to be huge different makers from what they've done their entire career is you being yourself. Hughes has the best chance and that's only with the hopes that he finally gets it after being a first round pick several years ago. We basically traded our trash for their trash with both teams hoping they get different results.

I'm sure when Wanny took over you probably said he would be good for a couple more wins and a better defense too since he was a proven DC. I know there was many on this board predicting a Top 10-15 defense after he took over. We see how that worked out. Pettine will be better but it will take time to build our defense up. This will be a 5-7 win team depending on how players develop and how the ball bounces during close games. Anything better then that would be a huge success.

[better days]

Are you serious? It's not like we just added 3 great players. Lawson has been an average starter at best his entire career. He has 18 career sacks in 7 season as a "pass rushing LB" with few tackles. He is a notch above a dime a dozen player. Branch is an average starter or a decent rotational DL at best and Jerry Hughes has been a bust so far. We got him for Sheppard for gods sake. That should tell you something.

To think that them guys is going to be huge different makers from what they've done their entire career is you being yourself. Hughes has the best chance and that's only with the hopes that he finally gets it after being a first round pick several years ago. We basically traded our trash for their trash with both teams hoping they get different results.

I'm sure when Wanny took over you probably said he would be good for a couple more wins and a better defense too since he was a proven DC. I know there was many on this board predicting a Top 10-15 defense after he took over. We see how that worked out. Pettine will be better but it will take time to build our defense up. This will be a 5-7 win team depending on how players develop and how the ball bounces during close games. Anything better then that would be a huge success.

Lawson & Branch have been STARTERS. If they continue to play well enough to START, they will help the Bills win games. It is not like they were scrub back ups, They have been consistent starters & played well or they would have lost their starting jobs.

Hughes started to come on last year & has potential. I am happy to have him rather than Sheppard.

Yes I thought Wanny would have the Bills defense playing better. How were we to know he thought the NFL did not change since 1999?

As I said, I blame poor Coaching on last season & if this team makes no improvement from last year, I will blame Coaching again.

[Mike]

Lawson & Branch have been STARTERS. If they continue to play well enough to START, they will help the Bills win games. It is not like they were scrub back ups, They have been consistent starters & played well or they would have lost their starting jobs.

Hughes started to come on last year & has potential. I am happy to have him rather than Sheppard.

Yes I thought Wanny would have the Bills defense playing better. How were we to know he thought the NFL did not change since 1999?

As I said, I blame poor Coaching on last season & if this team makes no improvement from last year, I will blame Coaching again.

Coaches are the easiest of all to blame. Often times fans have a hard time admitting that the talent level is subpar and that many pieces need to be changes instead of a few (coaches). This becomes that far more evident in the fact that in the past 13 years we, apparently, have not had one decent coach.

[OpIv37]

I base 8-8 on a number of things. Chan was able to win 6 games last year with Wanny as the DC. The only talented player the Bills lost was Levitre.

NOT TRUE that the Rookies were the only talent added. Manny Lawson, Alan Branch, Jerry Hughes are real talent that will help the Bills.

I also expect some of the Rookies to make a real contribution to help the team as well as some 2nd year players like TJ Graham.

New systems on both sides of the ball is a HUGE PLUS IMO, not a negative. Even if they don't have it down cold for half the season, I expect the defense to play MUCH BETTER than last year from the first game.

And Jim Kelly said he has watched Kolb & Manuel & he said they both throw the ball VERY, VERY WELL. I NEVER heard him say that about Fitz.

With an improved defense, and better QB play, I think two wins more than last year are to be expected & I don't care if the players have to learn it. I disagree that it will take an entire season to learn a new system.

The two bolded parts are what hurt your credibility. As far as losing players, yeah, Levitre was the only talented player we lost, but it's also about the talent we added. We added minimal proven talent with Branch and Lawson, and everything else is just completely unproven rookies. In real life, there's no such thing as addition by subtraction. We are relying on unproven rookies being INSTANTLY better, which, again, is unrealistic.

As far as the second bolded part, pretty much every team struggles with new systems. It's just how it works. Yes, our defensive coaching was horrendous last year, but you can't just throw a new coach at the same untalented group and expect them to be MUCH MUCH BETTER right out of the gate. Remember 2002? Gregg Williams turned that D around, and with a few additions in the off-season, they were one of the best D's in the league in '03 and '04. But for the first 8 games or so of 2002, the D was absolutely atrocious. It took half a season to figure it out. That's the norm and that's what's likely to happen here.

[better days]

Coaches are the easiest of all to blame. Often times fans have a hard time admitting that the talent level is subpar and that many pieces need to be changes instead of a few (coaches). This becomes that far more evident in the fact that in the past 13 years we, apparently, have not had one decent coach.

The universal view of football people/pundits is the Bills have much more talent than last years record would indicate.

COACHING/SCHEME were the problem last year.

[OpIv37]

The universal view of football people/pundits is the Bills have much more talent than last years record would indicate.

COACHING/SCHEME were the problem last year.
The Bills don't have much more talent than last year no matter who says it. LB was the weakest link and all we added was Lawson, who's better than what we had but not the kind of dominating player that can fix the problems of this LB corps all by himself. Rookies don't count until they prove themselves- and you seem to be neglecting the fact that, even if the rookies are more talented than they guys we lost, they likely won't be there yet in week 1 when we play the Pats. It takes time to adjust to the NFL.

BTW, I love it how if the national media, say, ranks the Bills #32 in the Power Rankings, everyone *****es that the national media doesn't pay attention to the Bills and hence doesn't know what they are talking about. But if the national media says the Bills are "more talented," somehow they are suddenly credible sources for Bills information. Please.

[better days]

The two bolded parts are what hurt your credibility. As far as losing players, yeah, Levitre was the only talented player we lost, but it's also about the talent we added. We added minimal proven talent with Branch and Lawson, and everything else is just completely unproven rookies. In real life, there's no such thing as addition by subtraction. We are relying on unproven rookies being INSTANTLY better, which, again, is unrealistic.

As far as the second bolded part, pretty much every team struggles with new systems. It's just how it works. Yes, our defensive coaching was horrendous last year, but you can't just throw a new coach at the same untalented group and expect them to be MUCH MUCH BETTER right out of the gate. Remember 2002? Gregg Williams turned that D around, and with a few additions in the off-season, they were one of the best D's in the league in '03 and '04. But for the first 8 games or so of 2002, the D was absolutely atrocious. It took half a season to figure it out. That's the norm and that's what's likely to happen here.

NONSENSE. The Bills added two starters & a third guy with potential. It takes TALENT to start in the NFL & Lawson & Branch will make an IMPACT on this team. As I said the only talented player lost was Levitre so even if none of the rookies pan out, the talent should be better than last year with the addition of Branch & Lawson. But SOME rookies will make an impact.

The Bills had a VERY GOOD defense before Williams arrived in Buffalo. What was needed was to fix the offense. The IDIOT Greg Williams instead dismantled a VERY GOOD defense to install his own defense. Instead of using the resources necessary, the draft & free agency to fix the offense, he wasted it on the defense that DID NOT need fixing. POOR COACHING.

I am not saying it won't take time to learn the new systems. What I am saying is even if the defense is only playing at 60-75% of it's capability because of the learning curve, it will still be an IMPROVEMENT over the Wanny defense of last year.

[better days]

The Bills don't have much more talent than last year no matter who says it. LB was the weakest link and all we added was Lawson, who's better than what we had but not the kind of dominating player that can fix the problems of this LB corps all by himself. Rookies don't count until they prove themselves- and you seem to be neglecting the fact that, even if the rookies are more talented than they guys we lost, they likely won't be there yet in week 1 when we play the Pats. It takes time to adjust to the NFL.

BTW, I love it how if the national media, say, ranks the Bills #32 in the Power Rankings, everyone *****es that the national media doesn't pay attention to the Bills and hence doesn't know what they are talking about. But if the national media says the Bills are "more talented," somehow they are suddenly credible sources for Bills information. Please.

They were saying the talent LAST YEAR was better than the Bills record. This does not take into account the new players added. Profootball talk is rating the teams on their site now one team a day going from worst to first. They have the Raiders at #32 followed by the Cards & Jags. I expect the Bills to show up SOON on that list.

I said before, I will not be surprised if the Bills lose to the Pats* but I don't expect a blow out. I want to see the Bills put PRESSURE on Brady ALL game long. If the defense does that, I will have hope going forward that this team will win some games, as I said, about 8 games. With a few breaks I would not be surprised if the Bills do win the game.

[OpIv37]

They were saying the talent LAST YEAR was better than the Bills record. This does not take into account the new players added. Profootball talk is rating the teams on their site now one team a day going from worst to first. They have the Raiders at #32 followed by the Cards & Jags. I expect the Bills to show up SOON on that list.

I said before, I will not be surprised if the Bills lose to the Pats* but I don't expect a blow out. I want to see the Bills put PRESSURE on Brady ALL game long. If the defense does that, I will have hope going forward that this team will win some games, as I said, about 8 games. With a few breaks I would not be surprised if the Bills do win the game.

The talent last year really wasn't better than the record. The DL was the only group that really didn't play up to their talent level. Every other unit on the field simply just wasn't that talented.

[better days]

The talent last year really wasn't better than the record. The DL was the only group that really didn't play up to their talent level. Every other unit on the field simply just wasn't that talented.

Well, I will admit the LB group & WR group were not that talented. I think both were improved this year. Also it was a CRIME the way Chan underutilized Spiller last year.

[Extremebillsfan247]

I have been accused of overestimating the quality of the players on the Bills roster. I think with decent coaching & the talent on this team, the Bills should have a record of 8-8 or better. I think many on this board are overestimating the talent of the Pats* roster & underestimating the Bills.

Lets look at the Pats* roster.................

Tom Brady: Will be 36 years old when the season starts & despite what many people think, age is catching up to him. And he is not a tough guy like Jim Kelly, he is a pussy as evidenced by the play he threw up his leg while sliding in the playoffs last year. He is not the player he was 6 years ago. He no longer hangs tough in the pocket & his arm is not as strong as it was.

The Pats* receivers: With Hernandez in prison & Gronk out until maybe week 8, I don't think the Pats* have a TE as good as Chandler on their roster when the season opens.

Donald Jones: Hands of stone, FAILED when counted on last year after Nelson was lost for the year. After he drops the ball in NE like he did in Buffalo, Brady will only throw him the ball as a last resort.

Danny Amendola: A good receiver, but made of glass. Will most likely be healthy the first game.............unless he is injured in preseason.

Aaron Dobson : Never had over 700 yds in a season while playing at Marshall.................didn't exactly face SEC defenses week after week & now he is going to face NFL defenses.

The Pats* defense:

Wilfork, Mayo & Talib, the rest of that defense is composed of JAGS.

I really believe the Bills will win the opening game in Buffalo. Can't wait.
There is nothing wrong with overestimating, or underestimating players from our perspective. We are fans after all. It's a natural element of what makes a fan of the game a fan. It only means you are interested in whats going on in a positive, or negative way. But, there is nothing wrong with it, because our opinions don't effect the outcome of a game. Estimations to begin with derive from opinions based on events, or collected data of events, and how we interpret it as individuals. Just my opinion.

[better days]

There is nothing wrong with overestimating, or underestimating players from our perspective. We are fans after all. It's a natural element of what makes a fan of the game a fan. It only means you are interested in whats going on in a positive, or negative way. But, there is nothing wrong with it, because our opinions don't effect the outcome of a game. Estimations to begin with derive from opinions based on events, or collected data of events, and how we interpret it as individuals. Just my opinion.

I agree. I started this thread as a way to express my opinion, which is I don't think the Bills roster is lacking in talent as much as the pessimists on this board think. I think 8-8 should be expected, not 4-12 or 3-13.

[EDS]

Lawson & Branch have been STARTERS. If they continue to play well enough to START, they will help the Bills win games. It is not like they were scrub back ups, They have been consistent starters & played well or they would have lost their starting jobs.



Using that logic, the departures of Barnett and Wilson need to be considered holes/subtractions as they have been consistent STARTERS for several seasons, and not scrub back-ups.

[better days]

Using that logic, the departures of Barnett and Wilson need to be considered holes/subtractions as they have been consistent STARTERS for several seasons, and not scrub back-ups.

I can't argue with that logic except to say they are replaceable & have been replaced by better players. IMO Lawson & Branch are better than the players that were on the team which is the reason the Bills signed them.

[BillsFever21]

Lawson & Branch have been STARTERS. If they continue to play well enough to START, they will help the Bills win games. It is not like they were scrub back ups, They have been consistent starters & played well or they would have lost their starting jobs.

Hughes started to come on last year & has potential. I am happy to have him rather than Sheppard.

Yes I thought Wanny would have the Bills defense playing better. How were we to know he thought the NFL did not change since 1999?

As I said, I blame poor Coaching on last season & if this team makes no improvement from last year, I will blame Coaching again.

Just because they have been starters doesn't mean they are impact players. That's like saying Kelsay was good since he was a 10 year starter. Or even Donald Jones which you talk about how much he sucks now that he is with the Patriots. He was a starter for us for several years and will now be a starter in New England. Does that make him good? McKelvin has been a starter for most of his 5 years is he a good player?

Lawson's value is being a "pass rushing specialist" yet he only has 18 career sacks in 7 years and only 6.5 sacks the past few years. Hell great pass rushing LB's can have that in a season. There are many average or bad players that can land starting gigs especially when they were a 1st round pick by the team that drafted them or on bad teams. Hell eve Jonathan Scott has been a starter for years between the Bills and the Steelers and he sucks.

I didn't think Wanny would make the defense much if any better when he came here. He was a washed up coach failed head coach coming back from also failing in college just like Chan Gailey. They worked together in Miami during their prime and failed. The only difference was their circumstances were switched. You couldn't expect much of a difference in results and if anything even worse results. There was a reason Wanny wasn't wanted by the NFL anymore just like Gailey wasn't. Only the Bills were dumb enough to come knocking on their door.

At best I was hoping for a slight improvement just on his experience alone. Most of the people who thought he would turn that scrap heap into a Top 10 defense are the same people who think every move that Buffalo makes is a good one just because they made the move. If another team made the move it would be totally different though.

[EDS]

I can't argue with that logic except to say they are replaceable & have been replaced by better players. IMO Lawson & Branch are better than the players that were on the team which is the reason the Bills signed them.

I don't follow yor logic. Lawson for Barnett is a wash, no safety on the roster other than Byrd has the resume of Wilson - yet he has been replaced by better players - and Branch is likely to be a back-up for the Bills.

[BillsFever21]

Also it's not a bold prediction to predict the Bills defense to be better this season then they were last year. The only place to go is up when you're comparing it to the worse defensive performance in the history of the Bills. If by some act of satan they are worse this year then Pettine needs to be fired after his first season.

Our DL is good on paper but they still need to preform on the field. Mario Williams is good but he is a dominant player that commands double teams all game long and wreaks havoc on a regular basis. He is a Top 10 DE but he isn't dominant. Kyle Williams is a sold DT and who knows what we will get out of Dareus this season. He has been a failure up to this point in his career. I would rank the DL a 7 out of 10 overall though. It could improve depending on Dareus assuming everyone else plays how they are capable of.

Our LB unit may be the worse in the league. Unless Alonso comes out of the gate as a star similar to recent draftees like Clay Matthews and Aldon Smith then that is a huge weak spot. I guess if they are good enough to start then they obviously must be good players though lol. At best I would give them a 5 and maybe a 6 if Alonso has a good rookie season.

Our secondary has one star in Byrd and hopefully an improved Gilmore this season. On the other side of him we have one of the worse "starting" CB's in the league in McKelvin and the backups aren't anything special either. We will have to wait and see how our SS position plays out. Overall I would give them a 6 which could improve if Gilmore develops into a solid #1 CB this season.

Overall I would give the defense a ranking of 6 which should put them in the Top 15-20 of the league. If Pettine is the real deal then there is a chance it could be slightly better then that this season and a Top 12-15 defense.

[Mr. Pink]

I don't follow yor logic. Lawson for Barnett is a wash, no safety on the roster other than Byrd has the resume of Wilson - yet he has been replaced by better players - and Branch is likely to be a back-up for the Bills.

Here's the logic - The guy now dons the colors so he's awesome. The second a guy no longer dons the colors he sucks and was easily replaced.

[better days]

I don't follow yor logic. Lawson for Barnett is a wash, no safety on the roster other than Byrd has the resume of Wilson - yet he has been replaced by better players - and Branch is likely to be a back-up for the Bills.

TOTALLY disagree with you. Barnett fell off the face of the Earth last year. Lawson will prove to be much better this year than Barnett was last year.

[BillsFever21]

I don't follow yor logic. Lawson for Barnett is a wash, no safety on the roster other than Byrd has the resume of Wilson - yet he has been replaced by better players - and Branch is likely to be a back-up for the Bills.

But we replaced them with STARTERS and not scrub BACK UP players. Even though Barnett and Wilson have been STARTERS for years and Wilson will be a STARTER again this YEAR they are crappy players that we easily upgraded.

I guess while they are a starter on the Bills then they are good but if they are a starter on another team then they're not. The conflicting logic of some people.

[better days]

Here's the logic - The guy now dons the colors so he's awesome. The second a guy no longer dons the colors he sucks and was easily replaced.

This is TOTAL BS. Donald Jones SUCKED last year & he will continue to SUCK. SHOW ONE post where I said good things about Donald Jones while he was a Bill.

[BillsFever21]

This is TOTAL BS. Donald Jones SUCKED last year & he will continue to SUCK. SHOW ONE post where I said good things about Donald Jones while he was a Bill.

But he was a starter for us and should be a starter for the Patriots. From your previous logic that would mean he is good enough to start so he's a good player and it must be an upgrade for the Patriots.

That's the same logic used with Manny Lawson even though he has only averaged 2.5 sacks a year during his career and his best year was only 6.5 sacks. So by default that should automatically make Donald Jones good enough to be a starter. And if they are a starter then that means they are a good player and an upgrade.

[Mr. Pink]

This is TOTAL BS. Donald Jones SUCKED last year & he will continue to SUCK. SHOW ONE post where I said good things about Donald Jones while he was a Bill.

Manny Lawson sucks.

Alan Branch is meaningless and might see the field 12 defensive snaps a game.

[BillsFever21]

Manny Lawson sucks.

Alan Branch is meaningless and might see the field 12 defensive snaps a game.

But he is a starter so that means he must be good.

[EDS]

TOTALLY disagree with you. Barnett fell off the face of the Earth last year. Lawson will prove to be much better this year than Barnett was last year.

Lawson has never been any good. He is a journeyman who you bring in to fill a huge hole but do not expect to make a significant impact and whom you are actively looking to upgrade in the near future.

[BillsFever21]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/000/774/144/lawson_original.png?1363800554

Manny Lawson is such a great starter that his snaps keep going down every season for the past 4 years. He only participated in about 35% of the snaps last season for the Bengals. But hey he started 25 out of 32 games for them so he must be good.

In a year when proven players 30+ years of age was lucky to get a few million a year somehow Lawson ends up with 7 million over the next two seasons and 4.6 million guaranteed. Not the Bills though. They love paying average at best players around 4 million a year just like they did with McKelvin. But hey a good young player wants 7 or 8 million a year and that's not in our budget and they want too much money according to many of the apologist here and the front office.

[Mr. Pink]

But he is a starter so that means he must be good.

Well he's certainly no worse than Nick Barnett. Unfortunately, he's not any better either.

In a move of typical Bills fashion they just move laterally. Also unfortunately, they're not good enough to just make lateral moves.

[better days]

But he was a starter for us and should be a starter for the Patriots. From your previous logic that would mean he is good enough to start so he's a good player and it must be an upgrade for the Patriots.

That's the same logic used with Manny Lawson even though he has only averaged 2.5 sacks a year during his career and his best year was only 6.5 sacks. So by default that should automatically make Donald Jones good enough to be a starter. And if they are a starter then that means they are a good player and an upgrade.

Well, we will see if he starts for the Pats* or even makes that team. He is as of NOW, the only WR on that team with any speed, but he has hands of stone. If any other WR with speed becomes available to the Pats*, Jones could very well be cut.

[better days]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/000/774/144/lawson_original.png?1363800554

Manny Lawson is such a great starter that his snaps keep going down every season for the past 4 years. He only participated in about 35% of the snaps last season for the Bengals. But hey he started 25 out of 32 games for them so he must be good.

In a year when proven players 30+ years of age was lucky to get a few million a year somehow Lawson ends up with 7 million over the next two seasons and 4.6 million guaranteed. Not the Bills though. They love paying average at best players around 4 million a year just like they did with McKelvin. But hey a good young player wants 7 or 8 million a year and that's not in our budget and they want too much money according to many of the apologist here and the front office.

Well, for one thing Lawson is only 29 years old. For another he has been used as a COVERAGE LB for quite a while & that is most likely how the Bills will use him, to cover TE's like GRONK.

[better days]

But we replaced them with STARTERS and not scrub BACK UP players. Even though Barnett and Wilson have been STARTERS for years and Wilson will be a STARTER again this YEAR they are crappy players that we easily upgraded.

I guess while they are a starter on the Bills then they are good but if they are a starter on another team then they're not. The conflicting logic of some people.

Barnett fell off the face of the Earth last year & NO OTHER team has signed him yet!

If Wilson even makes the Titans, it will be as a BACKUP.

[stuckincincy]

Well, for one thing Lawson is only 29 years old. For another he has been used as a COVERAGE LB for quite a while & that is most likely how the Bills will use him, to cover TE's like GRONK.

From watching him play for CIN the past 2 seasons, I wouldn't label him as a coverage lb. He was usually the one to sit when a nickel back came in. If not for Thomas Howard tearing up his knee in practice prior to game 2 last year, Lawson likely wouldn't have seen much playing time.

Lawson's an OK player, but it would be surprising if he garnered substantially more that his 50 or so total tackles/year average.

[better days]

From watching him play for CIN the past 2 seasons, I wouldn't label him as a coverage lb. He was usually the one to sit when a nickel back came in. If not for Thomas Howard tearing up his knee in practice prior to game 2 last year, Lawson likely wouldn't have seen much playing time.

Lawson's an OK player, but it would be surprising if he garnered substantially more that his 50 or so total tackles/year average.

Well, he may sit when a nickel back comes in for the Bills, but when on the field, I expect him to cover TE's & backs coming out for passes.

[stuckincincy]

Well, he may sit when a nickel back comes in for the Bills, but when on the field, I expect him to cover TE's & backs coming out for passes.

CIN expected him to do so, too. I don't think anybody here had any emotion higher than a yawn when he left. He's a decent fellow - I hope he does well for the Bills.

[better days]

CIN expected him to do so, too. I don't think anybody here had any emotion higher than a yawn when he left. He's a decent fellow - I hope he does well for the Bills.

So are you saying he did not cover TE's & Backs for the Bengals? If not then what the hell did he do?

[stuckincincy]

So are you saying he did not cover TE's & Backs for the Bengals? If not then what the hell did he do?

If you are using the word "coverage" in the sense of attempting to be around them on passing plays, then yes, I suppose he did.

[better days]

If you are using the word "coverage" in the sense of attempting to be around them on passing plays, then yes, I suppose he did.

Yeah, well I think that is the definition of coverage. Be around the receiver & hopefully the QB does not throw the ball to him but if he does, try to break the pass attempt up or tackle the receiver immediately if he catches the ball.

[stuckincincy]

[QUOTE=better days;3814654]Yeah, well I think that is the definition of coverage. Be around the receiver & hopefully the QB does not throw the ball to him but if he does, try to break the pass attempt up or tackle the receiver immediately if he catches the ball.[/QUOTE


Unlike SF who drafted him in the 1st round and had 1st round $ tied up, CIN didn't. The two seasons he spent with CIN was with a defense with a pretty decent defensive line, so it would have been a reasonable expectation to see better results from him. He was found wanting.

I think Lawson is a "tweener" in the older sense - not a DE, not a LB. Which is too bad - his attitude and smarts are right there. He just doesn't get the job done at either.

[better days]

[QUOTE=better days;3814654]Yeah, well I think that is the definition of coverage. Be around the receiver & hopefully the QB does not throw the ball to him but if he does, try to break the pass attempt up or tackle the receiver immediately if he catches the ball.[/QUOTE


Unlike SF who drafted him in the 1st round and had 1st round $ tied up, CIN didn't. The two seasons he spent with CIN was with a defense with a pretty decent defensive line, so it would have been a reasonable expectation to see better results from him. He was found wanting.

I think Lawson is a "tweener" in the older sense - not a DE, not a LB. Which is too bad - his attitude and smarts are right there. He just doesn't get the job done at either.

I think he is the right size to play LB in a 3-4 defense.

[stuckincincy]

[QUOTE=stuckincincy;3814662]

I think he is the right size to play LB in a 3-4 defense.

Bon appetit.

[BillsFever21]

Well, for one thing Lawson is only 29 years old. For another he has been used as a COVERAGE LB for quite a while & that is most likely how the Bills will use him, to cover TE's like GRONK.

I realize he is 29 years old which is pretty close to that thirty years of age mark. And if they are using him for coverage to play 1/3 of the snaps then they really overpaid. Considering he wasn't very good at coverage to begin with.

Below-Average Dropping into Coverage

The Bills signed him to play strong-side outside linebacker, which means he'll be dropping into coverage against tight ends and will be responsible for running backs out of the backfield.

He doesn't have great ball skills (two career interceptions), but he hasn't allowed a single touchdown thrown into his coverage over the past two seasons, when he's been playing noticeably more often in coverage than ever before.

Even despite all that, he's considered a liability in coverage. He has been targeted regularly (averaged 5.5 cover snaps per target in 2012), and quarterbacks had their way throwing into his coverage (83.3 completion percentage allowed).

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/829048-what-should-the-buffalo-bills-expect-out-of-linebacker-manny-lawson (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/829048-what-should-the-buffalo-bills-expect-out-of-linebacker-manny-lawsonSo)

So our "coverage" LB that we're paying 3+ million a year for has given up an 83.3% completion rate against him? Well that is just an awesome stat.

[BillsFever21]

Yeah, well I think that is the definition of coverage. Be around the receiver & hopefully the QB does not throw the ball to him but if he does, try to break the pass attempt up or tackle the receiver immediately if he catches the ball.

Wow who would've thought that was the object of covering somebody? You would hope your people in coverage can either break up the pass, intercept it or not allow the completion to begin with. Somebody catching the ball against you and hoping to tackle them for little yards after that doesn't make for a good coverage guy.

Well he definitely isn't knocking down many of them passes since he only had 1 PD last season and 5 of them over 2 years with the Bengals. They will definitely complete a lot of passes thrown his way though and he gets targeted a lot. An 83.3% completion rate isn't very good.

[better days]

Wow who would've thought that was the object of covering somebody? You would hope your people in coverage can either break up the pass, intercept it or not allow the completion to begin with. Somebody catching the ball against you and hoping to tackle them for little yards after that doesn't make for a good coverage guy.

Well he definitely isn't knocking down many of them passes since he only had 1 PD last season and 5 of them over 2 years with the Bengals. They will definitely complete a lot of passes thrown his way though and he gets targeted a lot. An 83.3% completion rate isn't very good.

Well, even if those stats are correct, we have no idea how many times the QB did not throw the ball to the receiver he was covering.

And if you read the article you linked, it looks like Lawson is VERSATILE. And can do it all. Which is what Pettine wants in his players. He is an UPGRADE.

[Mike]

Well, even if those stats are correct, we have no idea how many times the QB did not throw the ball to the receiver he was covering.

And if you read the article you linked, it looks like Lawson is VERSATILE. And can do it all. Which is what Pettine wants in his players. He is an UPGRADE.

Often times going from one bad 'starter' to the next is not an upgrade. Lawson can easily be a downgrade.

In the NFL giving up 83% completion percentage is the equivalent of not being to cover at all. The 17% incompletion rate includes errant throws, poor accuracy, dropped passes, etc. Lastly, from these stats it is obvious that he is targeted quite frequently. Giving up almost 6 receptions per game, on 30 pass attempts that's 20% of the total completions. Throw in the fact that he is not in all passing downs (like 3rd & long) and its plausible that he's really giving up completions of 30%+ on pass plays which he is a part of. In other words, the opposing offense will complete 1/3 of passes on him when he's in the game!

Obviously, he can't do it and is not versatile; he can't cover, can't sack, what can he do?

[better days]

Often times going from one bad 'starter' to the next is not an upgrade. Lawson can easily be a downgrade.

In the NFL giving up 83% completion percentage is the equivalent of not being to cover at all. The 17% incompletion rate includes errant throws, poor accuracy, dropped passes, etc. Lastly, from these stats it is obvious that he is targeted quite frequently. Giving up almost 6 receptions per game, on 30 pass attempts that's 20% of the total completions. Throw in the fact that he is not in all passing downs (like 3rd & long) and its plausible that he's really giving up completions of 30%+ on pass plays which he is a part of. In other words, the opposing offense will complete 1/3 of passes on him when he's in the game!

Obviously, he can't do it and is not versatile; he can't cover, can't sack, what can he do?

Well, as I said Bleacher report is less than credible. I don't know that those stats are factual or if they have been skewed. In any event from the same article: "he's capable of lining up all over the field: close to the line of scrimmage, off the line of scrimmage, in tight to the defensive end, lined up wide, etc."

And: "Lawson is probably not the key to a complete defensive turnaround, but he could certainly contribute given the circumstances & his experience."

He can cover & crash the line of scrimmage, putting pressure on the QB or the RB if he has the ball. He can do it all.

[Mike]

Well, as I said Bleacher report is less than credible.

---//// BR studies this stuff, neither one of us does the same. Being a national publication, I'm more willing to give them the benefit of the doubt based on the evidence they have than to give it a fan just because he disagrees. Ironically, you don't even disagree instead your just throwing up conjecture and have no evidence if your own. -----///::


I don't know that those stats are factual or if they have been skewed.

----///// this phrase is an example of non fact based conjecture. You could apply this to any player and for any stat. Unless your willing to find counter evidence, this point is meaningless ----////

In any event from the same article: "he's capable of lining up all over the field: close to the line of scrimmage, off the line of scrimmage, in tight to the defensive end, lined up wide, etc."

-----//// Lol... You can't reference an article you deemed as non credible. Further, I don't care where he lines up on the field but rather how effective he is. Heck, you could line me up in any of those areas----://////




And: "Lawson is probably not the key to a complete defensive turnaround, but he could certainly contribute given the circumstances & his experience."

He can cover & crash the line of scrimmage, putting pressure on the QB or the RB if he has the ball. He can do it all.

-----////. It's not about being able to do it 'all' but how well your doing it. I can 'do it all' as well however I would not be very effective. His lack of sacks and QB pressures indicates that he doesn't pass rush 'well'. Giving up 83% comp rate indicates he doesn't cover 'well'. Sure he can do it, but not very well. -----//////

[better days]

He can do ANYTHING a hell of a lot better than you. And he can do it better than the LBs the Bills had last year.

[EDS]

He can do ANYTHING a hell of a lot better than you. And he can do it better than the LBs the Bills had last year.

Correct me if I am wrong, but if the above statement is true that woud mean you believe Lawson is the Bills best linebacker, as he is one of two additions to the LB core, the other being a second round rookie.

[BillsFever21]

Being versatile is nice but it doesn't make you a good player. Brad Smith is versatile but he isn't very good at any of the positions he can play. Lawson isn't horrible and would be a decent compliment to a good set of LB's but he isn't a game changer. He's just another average player like we have been sticking out there for years and expecting different results from it.

On a good defense with already great LB's he can be a decent 3rd compliment to them. On a team with already bad LB's he isn't anything special at all and just another average player on the field. You don't win with a team of average players that can easily be replaced. He's nothing great where you can expect him to make a big difference with the LB unit. Just a decent player but he's far from a major contributor.

[BillsFever21]

He can do ANYTHING a hell of a lot better than you. And he can do it better than the LBs the Bills had last year.

Wow he is a better player then the average joe off the street. I'm impressed. We're SB bound now.

[BillsFever21]

And here is another obvious example of selective choices when it comes to player reviews. If that same report said he was a great player then it would be a credible source. Since it didn't then it's not a credible source. Funny how the couple things that are liked out of the article about him being versatile is credible but the rest of it isn't.

I remember the same website having the same type of reports on Stevie Johnson and Gilmore who was giving them good reviews. They were considered a credible source then but I guess now they're not since it doesn't fit what one wishes or wants to believe.

It's kind of like when one reporter comes out with a good fluff article about the team, player or draft pick that is considered legitimate. When that same reporter comes out with a bad review a month later then his opinion doesn't count. At least be consistent.

[better days]

Being versatile is nice but it doesn't make you a good player. Brad Smith is versatile but he isn't very good at any of the positions he can play. Lawson isn't horrible and would be a decent compliment to a good set of LB's but he isn't a game changer. He's just another average player like we have been sticking out there for years and expecting different results from it.

On a good defense with already great LB's he can be a decent 3rd compliment to them. On a team with already bad LB's he isn't anything special at all and just another average player on the field. You don't win with a team of average players that can easily be replaced. He's nothing great where you can expect him to make a big difference with the LB unit. Just a decent player but he's far from a major contributor.

AVERAGE players in a GOOD scheme can have more impact than GOOD players in a POOR scheme.

For example the 2012 Pats* VS the 2012 Bills.

[BillsFever21]

AVERAGE players in a GOOD scheme can have more impact than GOOD players in a POOR scheme.

For example the 2012 Pats* VS the 2012 Bills.

Of course a good coach with a great system can get more out of a player then one in a bad system. That still doesn't negate the fact that Lawson is an average player at best along with being nothing more then a compliment to an already good LB unit. Unless you are blaming his poor/average play for most of his 7 seasons on being in poor systems in San Francisco and Cincy.

[Albany,n.y.]

[QUOTE=better days;3813715]I listen to WEEI Boston & the official Pats* podcast on occasion to get the Pats* perspective. I have been listening more lately because of the Hernandez situation. The Pats* are COUNTING on Donald Jones to be their downfield threat. They have nobody else on the team with the speed Jones has.

Amendola: an injury waiting to happen, good when healthy which is not very often.
Jenkins: A BUST since Atlanta drafted him in the 1st rnd in 04. The Vikings CUT him after signing him the year before & he put up 449 yds on 40 catches.
Edleman: a GOOD special teams player. He has had a chance to play WR in NE & FAILED.
Hawkins??????????????? He is not even listed as being on the roster by Lindys.


QUOTE]

Wrong again.

[better days]

[QUOTE=better days;3813715]I listen to WEEI Boston & the official Pats* podcast on occasion to get the Pats* perspective. I have been listening more lately because of the Hernandez situation. The Pats* are COUNTING on Donald Jones to be their downfield threat. They have nobody else on the team with the speed Jones has.

Amendola: an injury waiting to happen, good when healthy which is not very often.
Jenkins: A BUST since Atlanta drafted him in the 1st rnd in 04. The Vikings CUT him after signing him the year before & he put up 449 yds on 40 catches.
Edleman: a GOOD special teams player. He has had a chance to play WR in NE & FAILED.
Hawkins??????????????? He is not even listed as being on the roster by Lindys.


QUOTE]

Wrong again.

I said in other posts that Jones could well be cut by the Pats*. He must have REALLY SUCKED in Minicamp dropping balls.

[OLDSRIP]

I think the op's logic is good on paper, it all makes sence.
but what happens on the field is what counts.
i hope he is right. But until we start beating the Pats, it is all talk, nothing more.