Moving Aaron Williams To Safety And Drafting 2 More In The Middle Rounds..

[Night Train]

..told us instantly Byrd was never going to see a multi year deal at 9 Mil + with the Bills. No surprise today.

Someone will overpay him and good for him. I like the guy a ton but impact players on D are in the front 7 98 % of the time.

New D scheme seems to be an attacking one and up front will be where the $$ is spent in the future.

I don't think saying the " Bills are cheap " goes too far here. Time will tell but I've seen big $$ spent on the secondary the last several years around the NFL and the overall return hasn't been all that great.

[Meathead]

first rounder, hopefully before the season starts

[NOT THE DUDE...]

hoping for picks for byrd, realistically, a 2nd and 4th maybe... aaron Williams will be fine imo

[elltrain22]

I cannot endorse not paying Byrd the money. He's a really good player, and IMO, good teams find a way to keep their good players.

[Mark Miller]

It is possible that the Bills are hoping that Byrd plays this entire season and convinces us beyond any doubt that he is the best safety in the league before "showing him the money."

[TigerJ]

Agree with Night Train. I'm not optimistic the Bills will get full value in a trade because other teams can smell the blood in the water and have a pretty good idea Byrd is never going to sign a long term deal in Buffalo. Whaley says the Bills are looking to sign a one year deal now that the deadline is past, but I think he almost has to say that to prop up his trade value as much as possible. If teams think Buffalo is serious about keeping him at least for a year, they may figure they've got to offer a little more to pry him loose

[Goobylal]

Agree with Night Train. I'm not optimistic the Bills will get full value in a trade because other teams can smell the blood in the water and have a pretty good idea Byrd is never going to sign a long term deal in Buffalo. Whaley says the Bills are looking to sign a one year deal now that the deadline is past, but I think he almost has to say that to prop up his trade value as much as possible. If teams think Buffalo is serious about keeping him at least for a year, they may figure they've got to offer a little more to pry him loose
The Bills own his rights for the year. At this point, all that can be done is a 1-year deal. Whether Byrd signs it and shows up for the full season is up to him, but he gambled and lost a year, unless some team offers a 2nd rounder at least for him, plus $9M/year, which I doubt.

[Ingtar33]

I cannot endorse not paying Byrd the money. He's a really good player, and IMO, good teams find a way to keep their good players.

2 time probowler in 4 seasons... lead the nfl in ints 1 season the afc in 2 seasons... we're talking about an elite player who struggled 1 year when he was asked to play a lot of man defense, but who's dominated in zone. On a team hurting for top flight talent not paying byrd makes zero sense. This type of player doesn't come around often, and he's the type of player you can build a secondary around. But lets move aaron williams to safety, trade byrd for a 3rd rounder, and spend a 2nd and a 4th on two rookie safeties who won't be in the league in 4 years. This is why we're a perpetually sub .500 team

He wants to be paid like a top 5 safety, well guess what... he IS a top 5 safety. You pay him, make him happy and move on.

[Buddo]

2 time probowler in 4 seasons... lead the nfl in ints 1 season the afc in 2 seasons... we're talking about an elite player who struggled 1 year when he was asked to play a lot of man defense, but who's dominated in zone. On a team hurting for top flight talent not paying byrd makes zero sense. This type of player doesn't come around often, and he's the type of player you can build a secondary around. But lets move aaron williams to safety, trade byrd for a 3rd rounder, and spend a 2nd and a 4th on two rookie safeties who won't be in the league in 4 years. This is why we're a perpetually sub .500 team

He wants to be paid like a top 5 safety, well guess what... he IS a top 5 safety. You pay him, make him happy and move on.

Well, as Parker as his agent, and 'reports' that Byrd wants to be the highest paid safety in the league, who is to say what the Bills offered?
In principle, I'm with you, that byrd should be getting the sort of money that Weddle and Goldson got, and likely a bit more, due to his age, but that isn't north of $9 million per, which is what the highest paid safety, Polamalu, is getting. The same 'report' said that the Bills had offered top 4-5 money, btw. We've been down this road before with Parker and Peters, and it doesn't bode well for compromise. Seems to me that Parker has a penchant for telling a player he will make them the highest paid at their position, and then will stick it out to be able to make that happen, regardless of the impact that might have.
Imho, Byrd will never quite be the player Reed was in his prime, and it's simply because of his lack of true speed. Not trying to be funny about it, but that small difference in speed, is what is possibly making the Bills shy away from going all in on Byrd. While Byrd may be able to improve some, without that extra speed, I think he's getting very close to his 'ceiling' as a player, and his numbers are probably going to be affected more by the D he plays in, than by his own performance, assuming he's consistent.

As to the drafting of safeties, and moving Williams to the position, I don't think that there was any specific 'contingency' plan in mind. Like Byrd before him, Williams was also talked about before being drafted, as a likely candidate to be moved to safety, but had enough physical ability to warrant being given a decent shot at CB first. The drafting of two safeties, was as much a function of probably the deepest safety group in years, rather than specifically making plans for 'life after Byrd', although it has to be said its not an inconvenient time for the Bills to be faced with such a deep safety class.

[Jan Reimers]

I usually agree with Night Train, but I think that one big reason for our almost 20 year funk is our inability, or unwillingness, to pay and keep our good players. We have let so many young, and young veteran, players go, that we are constantly rebuilding to replace them.

I had hoped that with the organizational changes we would have a change in our thinking. I felt we might even overpay - as the good teams often do - to keep a group together long enough to have a shot at the playoffs, and maybe even a Super Bowl run.

But with the exit of Levitre, and the now very probable leaving of Byrd, I see more of the same old thing. We will certainly be better at some positions this season, but worse at guard, and next season, at safety. And who will we let go after that, when more rookie contracts are up?

I don't believe we will ever build a really good team again without biting the bullet and paying what other franchises are willing to pay to put a winner on the field.

[Night Train]

I usually agree with Night Train, but I think that one big reason for our almost 20 year funk is our inability, or unwillingness, to pay and keep our good players. We have let so many young, and young veteran, players go, that we are constantly rebuilding to replace them.

I had hoped that with the organizational changes we would have a change in our thinking. I felt we might even overpay - as the good teams often do - to keep a group together long enough to have a shot at the playoffs, and maybe even a Super Bowl run.

But with the exit of Levitre, and the now very probable leaving of Byrd, I see more of the same old thing. We will certainly be better at some positions this season, but worse at guard, and next season, at safety. And who will we let go after that, when more rookie contracts are up?

I don't believe we will ever build a really good team again without biting the bullet and paying what other franchises are willing to pay to put a winner on the field.

I see QB and D Front 7 as the core guys getting the really big $$. OL to a point. The rest, not so much.

Levitre will collect 26 Mil the next 2 years for the Titans. There is no justification for that, even if he was the greatest Guard in NFL history. Cap be damned.

I wouldn't doubt there could be something between agent Eugene Parker and Brandon/Overdorf, going back to the whole Jason Peters fiasco. Parker played the Bills like a fiddle back then and may be forcing something again, knowing he can get his client more outside of Buffalo. Thus the drafting of 2 Safeties in April and the switch of Williams to Safety. The decision could have been made months ago that the Bills were not going to deal with Parker.

[The King]

Two names have come up in this thread. Polamalu and Reed. Byrd is a very good safety but he's not even close to these two.

These guys gave the top QB's in the league fits in their prime. When you would see Polamalu creep to the line you'd audible, he was that scary.

Byrd is reliable, he can make the big play, but he's not imposing like the other two. He's a top 5 guy, and deserves to be paid as such. But he hasn't proven to be deserving of the contract his agent is pulling for. Maybe with a new scheme he'll look even, better, maybe he'll look worse.

Let's also remember he hasnt shown his face to the new staff yet.

[OpIv37]

It is possible that the Bills are hoping that Byrd plays this entire season and convinces us beyond any doubt that he is the best safety in the league before "showing him the money."

Possibly but that's not what Byrd wants. Players have short shelf lives and risk injury that reduces their value at any time. Byrd and his agent want their payday now, without the risk of another season before they get big money.

- - - Updated - - -


hoping for picks for byrd, realistically, a 2nd and 4th maybe... aaron Williams will be fine imo
I hope Aaron Williams will be fine. I suspect he'll be off the team by this time next year.

[NOT THE DUDE...]

we have plenty of time guys. we can still franchise him next year with a slight increase, so its up to byrd and whether or not he wants to deal with reality and the value of his position as a 1 dimensional cover 2 safety.

- - - Updated - - -

here is the kicker, if aaron Williams starts the season out really good, gets like 6 picks, etc. than byrd's value will be even less....

[justasportsfan]

If Gailey was still the coach, I think we would've paid Byrd.

[OpIv37]

we have plenty of time guys. we can still franchise him next year with a slight increase, so its up to byrd and whether or not he wants to deal with reality and the value of his position as a 1 dimensional cover 2 safety.

- - - Updated - - -

here is the kicker, if aaron Williams starts the season out really good, gets like 6 picks, etc. than byrd's value will be even less....

Byrd and his agent don't seem overly concerned about Aaron Williams, with good reason.

[jdaltroy5]

Two names have come up in this thread. Polamalu and Reed. Byrd is a very good safety but he's not even close to these two.

These guys gave the top QB's in the league fits in their prime. When you would see Polamalu creep to the line you'd audible, he was that scary.

Byrd is reliable, he can make the big play, but he's not imposing like the other two. He's a top 5 guy, and deserves to be paid as such. But he hasn't proven to be deserving of the contract his agent is pulling for. Maybe with a new scheme he'll look even, better, maybe he'll look worse.

Let's also remember he hasnt shown his face to the new staff yet.
Yeah, he's not as good as the two best safeties in the last decade were in their prime.

Let him walk.

[justasportsfan]

Yeah, he's not as good as the two best safeties in the last decade were in their prime.

Let him walk. I think Whaley already claimed they tried to work on a long term deal and not simply let him walk.

[jdaltroy5]

I think Whaley already claimed they tried to work on a long term deal and not simply let him walk.
I was being facetious.

I'm saying comparing him to the two best safeties in the last decade (in their prime no less) to Byrd and using that reason to not pay him is ridiculous.

[justasportsfan]

I was being facetious.

I'm saying comparing him to the two best safeties in the last decade (in their prime no less) to Byrd and using that reason to not pay him is ridiculous.

thats why I replied the way I did. The bills weren't just letting him walk. I'm guessing they tried to pay him but just not no.1 safety money or at the level of those guys.

[The King]

I was being facetious.

I'm saying comparing him to the two best safeties in the last decade (in their prime no less) to Byrd and using that reason to not pay him is ridiculous.
He wants to be paid as the best. Why is comparing him to the best ridiculous?

[jdaltroy5]

thats why I replied the way I did. The bills weren't just letting him walk. I'm guessing they tried to pay him but just not no.1 safety money or at the level of those guys.
No, they're not letting him walk, but their actions have exactly screamed, "We want you here for the long haul!"

[justasportsfan]

No, they're not letting him walk, but their actions have exactly screamed, "We want you here for the long haul!"

We don't know of the bills wanted wanted to pay him top 3 or 5 (which would be fair) but Byrd wanted to be paid as the best safety in the league as implied in Kings thread.

[OpIv37]

We don't know of the bills wanted wanted to pay him top 3 or 5 (which would be fair) but Byrd wanted to be paid as the best safety in the league as implied in Kings thread.

A few weeks ago there were articles posted here saying the Bills offered him $7 million. IIRC it was from a Clayton tweet. If that's the case then there is plenty of blame to go around. Byrd is being a douche by demanding to be the highest paid S in the league, but the Bills tried to low-ball him.

[justasportsfan]

A few weeks ago there were articles posted here saying the Bills offered him $7 million. IIRC it was from a Clayton tweet. If that's the case then there is plenty of blame to go around. Byrd is being a douche by demanding to be the highest paid S in the league, but the Bills tried to low-ball him.

a few weeks ago? Of course your first offer is a lowball. That's how INITIAL contract talks work. But if your final stance is to be paid no.1 up to the very end then that's a problem.

I don't know the accuracy of this report is but it's all we can go on until we know the truth.


Reportedly looking to be the highest-paid safety in the NFL, Jarius Byrd failed to agree on a long-term contract with the Buffalo Bills on Monday, which could lead to ongoing contract haggling.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000218034/article/warren-sapp-tells-jairus-byrd-to-earn-bills-money

[jdaltroy5]

He wants to be paid as the best. Why is comparing him to the best ridiculous?
Because we all understand how contracts work. He will be paid like the best for now. Until next year when another safety wants their team to top that. By the time Byrd's contract is up, they'll probably be at least 5 safeties that will be making more than him.

What is the most that you would pay Byrd?

[jdaltroy5]

We don't know of the bills wanted wanted to pay him top 3 or 5 (which would be fair) but Byrd wanted to be paid as the best safety in the league as implied in Kings thread.
That's fine.

Are you really going to split hairs over that?

He's realistically a top 5 safety. Are you willing to lose him because he wants to be paid like the top one?

[IlluminatusUIUC]

He wants to be paid as the best. Why is comparing him to the best ridiculous?

First off, he does compare well to them. The numbers have been posted several times. He has also shared the Pro Bowl and All Pro lists with them twice. Secondly, he's not even in his prime yet. People are comparing 28-29 year old prime Reed to a 26 year old Byrd.

[The King]

Because we all understand how contracts work. He will be paid like the best for now. Until next year when another safety wants their team to top that. By the time Byrd's contract is up, they'll probably be at least 5 safeties that will be making more than him.

What is the most that you would pay Byrd?

I feel the same way about the deal Tuukka Rask just got too. He's being paid as a top 3 goalie, and he's not.

I think Byrd is good and I am not a fan of creating holes when you're rebuilding. But I don't think Byrd is the type of player that you set market price with.
Here are Berry's and Polamalu's deals.

Berry got 6 years 50m 8.3m per year
Polamalu 4 years 36m - 9m per year

The next in line is Eric Weddle he signed for 5 years 40m in 2011 that puts him at an average of 8m per year. That IMO is your target. Statistically they're very close.

Why are we splitting hairs over 1.5m? It's a new regime, new system and we may not need a 9.5 million dollar safety. He wants to be the highest paid, so that at minimum puts him in the 9.25-9.5 range, and I am sure he wants at least 4 years. So realistically you're probably looking at a 45-50 million dollar 4 year deal (incl the sb).

[The King]

First off, he does compare well to them. The numbers have been posted several times. He has also shared the Pro Bowl and All Pro lists with them twice. Secondly, he's not even in his prime yet. People are comparing 28-29 year old prime Reed to a 26 year old Byrd.


Watch them play. It's no comparison.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Berry got 6 years 50m 8.3m per year

Berry's contract is in line with a pre-rookie cap Top 5 pick, so that's a rough comparison.


The next in line is Eric Weddle he signed for 5 years 40m in 2011 that puts him at an average of 8m per year. That IMO is your target. Statistically they're very close.

Key words bolded. Deals increase in value over time. In 2010, the Giants made Antrel Rolle the highest paid safety in the league (yes, higher than Reed and Polamalu) and he didn't have nearly the resume Byrd does now.


Why are we splitting hairs over 1.5m? It's a new regime, new system and we may not need a 9.5 million dollar safety. He wants to be the highest paid, so that at minimum puts him in the 9.25-9.5 range, and I am sure he wants at least 4 years. So realistically you're probably looking at a 45-50 million dollar 4 year deal (incl the sb).

But most people here are perfectly content with paying him 8 million, and virtually everyone would give him 7. So the difference is one lower-middle tier signing or two backup scrubs. That's what we're arguing over.


Watch them play. It's no comparison.

I do watch them play and the comparison is absolutely there. Again, people are comparing 10 and 11 year careers on cream of the crop franchises to a 4 year career on a dumpster fire team. Reed and Polamalu have been playing with or under Hall of Famers their entire careers. Byrd has played under three complete garbage DCs and still put up incredible numbers and received numerous accolades.

[jdaltroy5]

I feel the same way about the deal Tuukka Rask just got too. He's being paid as a top 3 goalie, and he's not.I absolutely think Rask is a top 3 goalie AND he's only 26 years old. I think the only reason that he wasn't nominated for the Vezina is because he didn't play as many games as the other guys and the Bruins were pretty bad at the end of the season.


I think Byrd is good and I am not a fan of creating holes when you're rebuilding. But I don't think Byrd is the type of player that you set market price with.
Here are Berry's and Polamalu's deals.

Berry got 6 years 50m 8.3m per year
Polamalu 4 years 36m - 9m per year

The next in line is Eric Weddle he signed for 5 years 40m in 2011 that puts him at an average of 8m per year. That IMO is your target. Statistically they're very close.So you'd be willing to lose a player over 1.5 million a year? We aren't even close to the cap. How much better do you think this team will be with an extra 1.5 million a year?


Why are we splitting hairs over 1.5m? It's a new regime, new system and we may not need a 9.5 million dollar safety. He wants to be the highest paid, so that at minimum puts him in the 9.25-9.5 range, and I am sure he wants at least 4 years. So realistically you're probably looking at a 45-50 million dollar 4 year deal (incl the sb).No you're not. The signing bonus counts towards the average. Troy Polomalu makes 7.5 a year PLUS the average of his signing bonus. He signed a 4 year, 36 million dollar contract. He got 10 million guaranteed, so his average base salary is about 6.5 mil a year PLUS his average 2.5 mil a year signing bonus which equals 9 mil a year.

[justasportsfan]

That's fine.

Are you really going to split hairs over that?

He's realistically a top 5 safety. Are you willing to lose him because he wants to be paid like the top one?

someone's obviously is splitting hairs over that . Either the bills or Byrd's camp.

[jdaltroy5]

someone's obviously is splitting hairs over that . Either the bills or Byrd's camp.
1.5 million to a person who has a limited window to make money is A LOT different than 1.5 million to a billionaire with 25 million in cap space.

[better days]

1.5 million to a person who has a limited window to make money is A LOT different than 1.5 million to a billionaire with 25 million in cap space.

He will make over $7 Million on the tag this year. You would think that would be enough to last a person a lifetime. If Byrd does not report to play for the first game, he will be costing himself money he will never be able to replace.

[jdaltroy5]

He will make over $7 Million on the tag this year. You would think that would be enough to last a person a lifetime. If Byrd does not report to play for the first game, he will be costing himself money he will never be able to replace.
Yeah and Ralph has over a billion dollars and is 25 million under the cap.

What's 1.5 million to him?

[justasportsfan]

1.5 million to a person who has a limited window to make money is A LOT different than 1.5 million to a billionaire with 25 million in cap space.
guess what he's making or not making if he doesn't sign the tender or doesn't play this season. If he doesn't sign or play then I guess 1.5 means nothing to him.

[jdaltroy5]

guess what he's making or not making if he doesn't sign the tender or doesn't play this season. If he doesn't sign or play then I guess 1.5 means nothing to him.
Well he's going to play at some point.

Him and his agent obviously think they are going to get more money in the long run by not signing the tender right now.

[Mike]

I was being facetious.

I'm saying comparing him to the two best safeties in the last decade (in their prime no less) to Byrd and using that reason to not pay him is ridiculous.

Using that logic they should also cut every other player and not pay anyone anything....

To go a step further...
Ironically when Whitner was here these same fans wanted to pay him and excused his lack of performance due to lack of talent on the D, saying 'its not his fault he doest have the help other top players have.'

So who know, if Byrd played on that 2001 Ravens D or some of the Steelers D he might have been better. He has almost no help on D. The pass rush sucks, the LB are the worse, the secondary is trash.

Byrd has done it alone. An example of cream rising to the top even in a awful situation. If he played on an All Star D who knows how much better his production would be!

[Ingtar33]

Byrd has done it alone. An example of cream rising to the top even in a awful situation. If he played on an All Star D who knows how much better his production would be!

flawless logic. Seriously... i loved Winfield, but his numbers weren't great. When he ended up with a great defense he turned into an all time great corner. The passrush and run defense help the secondary a lot. we haven't had either and still byrd puts up the numbers. You can't ignore that.

[jimmifli]

flawless logic. Seriously... i loved Winfield, but his numbers weren't great. When he ended up with a great defense he turned into an all time great corner. The passrush and run defense help the secondary a lot. we haven't had either and still byrd puts up the numbers. You can't ignore that.

Winfield was the Bill I really liked. I'm glad he left and got to have such a great career. He would have been wasted here.

After reading these threads, I'm starting to feel the same way about Byrd. I'd be OK with trading him before the season starts, as long as it's to a team Byrd is happy with.

[Mike]

He wants to be paid as the best. Why is comparing him to the best ridiculous?

Because there is this thing called inflation. Further, salary cap is increasing every year, which means the players as a whole make more each year.

Byrd doesn't have to be the best FS to be the highest paid FS. Simply as a consequence of being an FA in 2014 oppose to 2008 he would make more money simply due to salary cap increases. So in this light, Palamlou's(sp?) last contract of $9.25M adjusted for inflation and increased salary cap might be equivalent to $12-$14M+/yr contract in 2014.

[Mr. Pink]

I feel the same way about the deal Tuukka Rask just got too. He's being paid as a top 3 goalie, and he's not.

I think Byrd is good and I am not a fan of creating holes when you're rebuilding. But I don't think Byrd is the type of player that you set market price with.
Here are Berry's and Polamalu's deals.

Berry got 6 years 50m 8.3m per year
Polamalu 4 years 36m - 9m per year

The next in line is Eric Weddle he signed for 5 years 40m in 2011 that puts him at an average of 8m per year. That IMO is your target. Statistically they're very close.

Why are we splitting hairs over 1.5m? It's a new regime, new system and we may not need a 9.5 million dollar safety. He wants to be the highest paid, so that at minimum puts him in the 9.25-9.5 range, and I am sure he wants at least 4 years. So realistically you're probably looking at a 45-50 million dollar 4 year deal (incl the sb).

And this is 2013. Contracts go up every year when a guy his the market. Saying the benchmark for Byrd is a 2011 contract is ridiculous.

If Byrd hit the open market, he would be the top paid Safety in the NFL. That's the way it works.

Dashon Goldson got a 5 year 41.25m contract with 22m guaranteed on the open market this past offseason...are you saying Byrd isn't as good as Goldson?

[better days]

Because there is this thing called inflation. Further, salary cap is increasing every year, which means the players as a whole make more each year.

Byrd doesn't have to be the best FS to be the highest paid FS. Simply as a consequence of being an FA in 2014 oppose to 2008 he would make more money simply due to salary cap increases. So in this light, Palamlou's(sp?) last contract of $9.25M adjusted for inflation and increased salary cap might be equivalent to $12-$14M+/yr contract in 2014.

Well, except I'm sure his agent accounted for cap increases & inflation when he negotiated that contract for Palamalou.

[better days]

And this is 2013. Contracts go up every year when a guy his the market. Saying the benchmark for Byrd is a 2011 contract is ridiculous.

If Byrd hit the open market, he would be the top paid Safety in the NFL. That's the way it works.

Dashon Goldson got a 5 year 41.25m contract with 22m guaranteed on the open market this past offseason...are you saying Byrd isn't as good as Goldson?

I'm saying Byrd is TAGGED & NOT a Free Agent on the open market myself.

[Mr. Pink]

I'm saying Byrd is TAGGED & NOT a Free Agent on the open market myself.

He's tagged because we lowballed him and then refused to pay him his market value.

[better days]

He's tagged because we lowballed him and then refused to pay him his market value.

Yes. Which if he wanted to be paid as the #1 Safety, I have no problem with. Let him play under the tag for two years unless the Bills can get GOOD VALUE in a trade for him.

[EDS]

..told us instantly Byrd was never going to see a multi year deal at 9 Mil + with the Bills. No surprise today.

Someone will overpay him and good for him. I like the guy a ton but impact players on D are in the front 7 98 % of the time.

New D scheme seems to be an attacking one and up front will be where the $$ is spent in the future.

I don't think saying the " Bills are cheap " goes too far here. Time will tell but I've seen big $$ spent on the secondary the last several years around the NFL and the overall return hasn't been all that great.

Hypothetically, if Byrd sits or is traded, people are comfortable with the only "veteran" in the secondary being McKelvin?

Remind me again who is the on field leader of the defense?

[better days]

Hypothetically, if Byrd sits or is traded, people are comfortable with the only "veteran" in the secondary being McKelvin?

Remind me again who is the on field leader of the defense?

I think Gilmore qualifies as a vet as well. As does Williams.

[Buffalo Billy Bison]

We've been watching for the Byrd man for to long and now it's time to shoot the Byrd and move on! I want him here as much as the next Bills fan but enough is enough and his agent Parker can shop him to any team that will pay hime outrageous money and fork over two first round draft choice to the Bills. Why mortgage the farm for a safety and not be able to re-sign players like CJ in the near future! We may have some growing pains in the secondary for awhile but the move of Aaron Williams to safety was smart and I think we drafted a couple of good young safeties in the draft. Get what you can and move on! BUT please, no more threads and articles about this subject please!

[jdaltroy5]

Yes. Which if he wanted to be paid as the #1 Safety, I have no problem with. Let him play under the tag for two years unless the Bills can get GOOD VALUE in a trade for him.
The sad thing is that a lot of Bills fans consider this successful drafting.

If we can flip a guy around and get some more draft picks out of him, then he was a good pick.

[better days]

The sad thing is that a lot of Bills fans consider this successful drafting.

If we can flip a guy around and get some more draft picks out of him, then he was a good pick.

Teams like the Pats* & Steelers do the same thing. The Steelers let Rod Woodson walk for Gods sake & managed to win without him.

[Mike]

Well, except I'm sure his agent accounted for cap increases & inflation when he negotiated that contract for Palamalou.

Are you serious?
You can't include future cap increases in a contract or future inflation.

That would be like a Gas Station trying to charge you $20 for a gallon of gas because someday with inflation and peak oil gas will be $20/gal. Lol...

[jdaltroy5]

Teams like the Pats* & Steelers do the same thing. The Steelers let Rod Woodson walk for Gods sake & managed to win without him.
For the love of God stop comparing this to what the Steelers and Pats do.

They do that because they enough good young players coming up to fill the void.

We have proven time and time again that we do not. In fact, we usually end up spending several draft picks to fill a position by a departing star.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Teams like the Pats* & Steelers do the same thing. The Steelers let Rod Woodson walk for Gods sake & managed to win without him.

Aren't you the one predicting that the Pats are going to collapse from letting too much talent walk every year?

[better days]

Aren't you the one predicting that the Pats are going to collapse from letting too much talent walk every year?

No, I never said that. I said the Pats* have not drafted well since Pioli left except for players they were able to get because no other teams wanted anything to do with them such as Hernandez & Dennard. The GOOD talent on that team is AGING, INJURED or going to PRISON.

The Pats* have a good system in place & are able to win because of GOOD Coaching/system & GOOD QB play from Brady. But that will soon come to an end & the next Coach will find the cupboard empty.

[jdaltroy5]

No, I never said that. I said the Pats* have not drafted well since Pioli left except for players they were able to get because no other teams wanted anything to do with them such as Hernandez & Dennard. The GOOD talent on that team is AGING, INJURED or going to PRISON.

The Pats* have a good system in place & are able to win because of GOOD Coaching/system & GOOD QB play from Brady. But that will soon come to an end & the next Coach will find the cupboard empty.
Well that kind of contradicts your point then.

On one hand you said that the Pats let talented players walk and still win and on the other hand you said the cupboard is bare.

It's not both.

[better days]

Well that kind of contradicts your point then.

On one hand you said that the Pats let talented players walk and still win and on the other hand you said the cupboard is bare.

It's not both.

Well, the Pats* have not had anyone talented enough to worry about walking for a while aside from Wes Welker who they did not draft. When they did have talent like Richard Seymour & Lawyer Milloy, yes, they let them walk.

The Pats* will feel the loss of Welker this year. They will probably still win the AFC East. They were able to keep winning after losing Seymour & Milloy.

The cupboard is bare because aside from Mayo, they have not drafted players the quality of Seymour, Milloy, Bruschi in quite a while.

[jdaltroy5]

Well, the Pats* have not had anyone talented enough to worry about walking for a while aside from Wes Welker who they did not draft. When they did have talent like Richard Seymour & Lawyer Milloy, yes, they let them walk.

The Pats* will feel the loss of Welker this year. They will probably still win the AFC East. They were able to keep winning after losing Seymour & Milloy.

The cupboard is bare because aside from Mayo, they have not drafted players the quality of Seymour, Milloy, Bruschi in quite a while.
Yeah, they let talented players walk because they had enough other talented players to fill the void.

We don't have that luxury.

And now you're claiming that they're going to suffer because they have lost talented players like Welker.

Yet somehow we're not going to suffer by losing a talented player like Byrd?

[better days]

Are you serious?
You can't include future cap increases in a contract or future inflation.

That would be like a Gas Station trying to charge you $20 for a gallon of gas because someday with inflation and peak oil gas will be $20/gal. Lol...

That is EXACTLY what gas companies do. Not $20 a gallon, but they raise the price of gas well before they need to BEFORE the refineries close for any time such as when they switch from summer to winter blend.

YES inflation & future cap levels are factored in when negotiating a contract in the NFL.

[better days]

Yeah, they let talented players walk because they had enough other talented players to fill the void.

We don't have that luxury.

And now you're claiming that they're going to suffer because they have lost talented players like Welker.

Yet somehow we're not going to suffer by losing a talented player like Byrd?

The Bills are not losing Byrd this year or maybe not even next year.

If Amendola stays healthy, that will mitigate the loss of Welker for the Pats* But they also have the loss of Hernandez & likely Dennard to overcome.

If Williams becomes a GOOD safety, it will mitigate the loss of Byrd.

[jdaltroy5]

The Bills are not losing Byrd this year or maybe not even next year.

If Amendola stays healthy, that will mitigate the loss of Welker for the Pats* But they also have the loss of Hernandez & likely Dennard to overcome.

If Williams becomes a GOOD safety, it will mitigate the loss of Byrd.

Well that's a huge if.

That's like saying if McKelvin becomes a good CB, it will mitigate the loss of Clements. If Bell becomes a good LT, it will mitigate the loss of Peters. If Sheppard becomes a good...oh, well you know where I'm going with this.

At the end of the day, losing good players is a bad thing.

Being close to the cap is a LOT easier to rectify than losing good players.

[Mike]

That is EXACTLY what gas companies do. Not $20 a gallon, but they raise the price of gas well before they need to BEFORE the refineries close for any time such as when they switch from summer to winter blend.

YES inflation & future cap levels are factored in when negotiating a contract in the NFL.

If that were true why was a gallon of gas .35 cents in 1969 instead of $3.50?

If that was true, why is Mario Williams making more money per year than Bruce Smith in his last year?

Surely, Bruce Smith is way better, so why are the Bills paying Mario more???

Salary cap increases and inflation.

Currently, the top QBs make around 10-15% of the current teams Salery Cap. So if the Cap was $100M a top QB would want $15m/yr based on that $100M cap. If the agent says well, in 5 years the Cap will be $150M and we want $22.5M/yr which now represents 22.5% of Cap there is no way the team could afford this with all their players. It's not reasonable for players/agents to ask % based on future cap or inflation.The Market would not support this! Teams would fail overnight because now they are overpaying labour costs.

Lastly, your contradicting in your own logic! Even if you believe this to be the case, than based on 2019 Cap Rate for the Bills, $9.5M for Byrd is peanuts! In 2019 the Cap Rate might be around $175M meaning his salary would account for less than 5% of cap.

[better days]

If that were true why was a gallon of gas .35 cents in 1969 instead of $3.50?

If that was true, why is Mario Williams making more money per year than Bruce Smith in his last year?

Surely, Bruce Smith is way better, so why are the Bills paying Mario more???

Salary cap increases and inflation.

Currently, the top QBs make around 10-15% of the current teams Salery Cap. So if the Cap was $100M a top QB would want $15m/yr based on that $100M cap. If the agent says well, in 5 years the Cap will be $150M and we want $22.5M/yr which now represents 22.5% of Cap there is no way the team could afford this with all their players. It's not reasonable for players/agents to ask % based on future cap or inflation.The Market would not support this! Teams would fail overnight because now they are overpaying labour costs.

Lastly, your contradicting in your own logic! Even if you believe this to be the case, than based on 2019 Cap Rate for the Bills, $9.5M for Byrd is peanuts! In 2019 the Cap Rate might be around $175M meaning his salary would account for less than 5% of cap.

INFLATION. You are talking about a 45 year time span. STUPID.

Players sign contracts for 3-5 years, NOT 40-45 years.

Inflation & the cap are taken into consideration when contracts are negotiated, how you can not understand that is beyond belief.

I doubt even when Byrd does get a contract it will be for 7 years, but I agree in 2019, $9.5 while not peanuts would be the going rate for Byrd. In 2013 however, $9 Mill is TOO MUCH for Byrd to ask for.

[Mr. Pink]

INFLATION. You are talking about a 45 year time span. STUPID.

Players sign contracts for 3-5 years, NOT 40-45 years.

Inflation & the cap are taken into consideration when contracts are negotiated, how you can not understand that is beyond belief.

I doubt even when Byrd does get a contract it will be for 7 years, but I agree in 2019, $9.5 while not peanuts would be the going rate for Byrd. In 2013 however, $9 Mill is TOO MUCH for Byrd to ask for.

If Byrd goes into the open market next year he absolutely will get around 5 years 50m with 25ish guaranteed.

[better days]

If Byrd goes into the open market next year he absolutely will get around 5 years 50m with 25ish guaranteed.

He would have to have a CAREER year this year for any hope of that kind of money. I hope it happens.

[Mr. Pink]

He would have to have a CAREER year this year for any hope of that kind of money. I hope it happens.

No he doesn't. He just has to put up a season similar to last year.

Every year contracts go up. And if he reaches the open market, he'll be the top FS and someone will overpay for him.

If he went into the market this past offseason he would have got 9m per.

He's a better player than Goldson as much as people apparently don't want to admit it and Goldson got more than 8m per.

[better days]

No he doesn't. He just has to put up a season similar to last year.

Every year contracts go up. And if he reaches the open market, he'll be the top FS and someone will overpay for him.

If he went into the market this past offseason he would have got 9m per.

He's a better player than Goldson as much as people apparently don't want to admit it and Goldson got more than 8m per.

Last year was a career year for Byrd. So yes he will need another season at least as good.

As a Browns/Bills fan I question how much you have watched Goldson play to make that judgement. As a Bills/Bucs fan I can say I have not seen him that much, but I will give my opinion on that after this season.

I do know Goldson is a two time Pro Bowl player just like Byrd.

And Byrd will NOT reach the open market next year. The Bills can tag him AGAIN, then likely trade him, but that is not the same as being an unrestricted FA because that team will not only have to pay Byrd, they will have to pay the Bills as well.

[Mike]

INFLATION. You are talking about a 45 year time span. STUPID.

Players sign contracts for 3-5 years, NOT 40-45 years.

Inflation & the cap are taken into consideration when contracts are negotiated, how you can not understand that is beyond belief.

I doubt even when Byrd does get a contract it will be for 7 years, but I agree in 2019, $9.5 while not peanuts would be the going rate for Byrd. In 2013 however, $9 Mill is TOO MUCH for Byrd to ask for.

Where in the world are you getting the idea that $9M is too much? In accordance with TODAY'S salary cap it is the going rate. You agree that in 5 years the same amount would be cheap. It's not like Byrd wants to be paid $12-14M/yr which will be the going rate for FS in 2019. His agent is basing it on the current salary cap #, not Future #.

[Mike]

So for Reeds deal and Palamalou(so?) old deals they were based on lower salary cap numbers. If Ed Reed was a 26years old and an FA he might get $10M+.

To put it perspective, in my opinion he Reed is a big one play maker and his yearly salary is still lower than Revis at $12-14M/yr.

[better days]

Where in the world are you getting the idea that $9M is too much? In accordance with TODAY'S salary cap it is the going rate. You agree that in 5 years the same amount would be cheap. It's not like Byrd wants to be paid $12-14M/yr which will be the going rate for FS in 2019. His agent is basing it on the current salary cap #, not Future #.

2019 is SEVEN years away, NOT five. No wonder you don't think $9 Mill is too much, you can't even do simple math.

2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019 Count those years up, they add to 7, NOT 5.

[BillsFever21]

INFLATION. You are talking about a 45 year time span. STUPID.

Players sign contracts for 3-5 years, NOT 40-45 years.

Inflation & the cap are taken into consideration when contracts are negotiated, how you can not understand that is beyond belief.

I doubt even when Byrd does get a contract it will be for 7 years, but I agree in 2019, $9.5 while not peanuts would be the going rate for Byrd. In 2013 however, $9 Mill is TOO MUCH for Byrd to ask for.

The average amount of the contract is taking into account for inflation over the 5 years of the contract. Many say Byrd is worth 7 million a year which is the going rate for a top 5 safety right now. If you adjusted that for inflation and salary cap increases that 7 million on a conservative NFL level would be in the neighborhood of 7.5 million next season, 8.1 million in 2015, 8.8 million in 2016 and 9.5 million in 2017.

They structure the salaries over the years where each year the contract goes up. With that model that would be around an average of a 6% increase each year over his starting salary. If you add all of them up that would put his average salary at 8.2 million a season accounting for inflation and salary cap/revenue increases. Considering if you tag a player twice it cost you 20% more each season then that's a very conservative mock salary table for Byrd.

If that is the case and you agree that inflation and salary cap increases are taken into account for the length of the contract then why do you say he is only worth an average of 7 million a year for the entire contract which puts him at the average of the top 5 safeties in the NFL at the moment? That would mean that he isn't getting any inflation and salary cap increases over the length of the 5 year contract. That's contradicting yourself once again.

For him to have an average salary of 7 million a year with them same type of increases that would mean his starting salary this year would need to be around 5.7 million. Then it would go up to 6.3, 6.9, 7.6 and 8.4 in the following seasons. That would put him at an average of 7 million dollars a season. All of this is assuming a 500k initial increase in the 2nd season along with 100k increases each each following that on top of the 500k.

So in your words that would mean his starting salary this season would only be 5.7 million. That would be well under the salary cap total for this and lucky to put him in the top 10 in salary for this season after you factor in the signing bonuses along with it.

[EDS]

Well, the Pats* have not had anyone talented enough to worry about walking for a while aside from Wes Welker who they did not draft. When they did have talent like Richard Seymour & Lawyer Milloy, yes, they let them walk.

The Pats* will feel the loss of Welker this year. They will probably still win the AFC East. They were able to keep winning after losing Seymour & Milloy.

The cupboard is bare because aside from Mayo, they have not drafted players the quality of Seymour, Milloy, Bruschi in quite a while.

So Wilfork (pro bowler), Gronkowski (pro bowler), Solder, McCourty (pro bowler), Jones, Hightower and Ridley are not quality?

[Mike]

2019 is SEVEN years away, NOT five. No wonder you don't think $9 Mill is too much, you can't even do simple math.

2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019 Count those years up, they add to 7, NOT 5.

He won't be a FA until 2014 plus 5years that's 2019.

In any case, the years whether 5 or 7 is irrelevant. Agents don't base your salary request on what the salary cap might be in 5 years or 7 years or 20 years. They base it on the current Salary Cap.

Do you even know why the salary cap increase every year?

[better days]

He won't be a FA until 2014 plus 5years that's 2019.

In any case, the years whether 5 or 7 is irrelevant. Agents don't base your salary request on what the salary cap might be in 5 years or 7 years or 20 years. They base it on the current Salary Cap.

Do you even know why the salary cap increase every year?

The cap is based on how much money the league makes. It did not go up as much as players expected it to this year.

Teams & agents base contracts on the PROJECTED cap over the life of the contract.

And Byrd will not be a FA until at least 2015 maybe 2016 unless he is traded.

[Mr. Pink]

Last year was a career year for Byrd. So yes he will need another season at least as good.

As a Browns/Bills fan I question how much you have watched Goldson play to make that judgement. As a Bills/Bucs fan I can say I have not seen him that much, but I will give my opinion on that after this season.

I do know Goldson is a two time Pro Bowl player just like Byrd.

And Byrd will NOT reach the open market next year. The Bills can tag him AGAIN, then likely trade him, but that is not the same as being an unrestricted FA because that team will not only have to pay Byrd, they will have to pay the Bills as well.

I didn't see very many 49er games outside of the playoffs but he wasn't impressive.

Obviously he wasn't that impressive to the 49ers either as they didn't even bother tagging him and just let him go.

Likely cuz he wasn't an important part of that defense.

[better days]

So Wilfork (pro bowler), Gronkowski (pro bowler), Solder, McCourty (pro bowler), Jones, Hightower and Ridley are not quality?

Wilfork was drafted while Pioli was still GM.

Gronk was a player the Pats* were able to get in the lower rnds even though he had 1st or 2nd rnd talent because of past injuries no other team wanted him that high. Looked GREAT for a while, we will see how it goes from here

Solder NO

McCourty I will give you.

Jones.........I assume you mean Chandler not Donald but in either case NO

Hightower......has potential.

Ridley NO

Not counting Wilfork or this years class, if I give them all to you that is 6 QUALITY players the Pats* have drafted.

Now lets look at the Bills draft over the same time:

1) Stevie Johnson

2) TJ Graham

3) Cordy Glenn

4) Eric Wood

5) CJ Spiller

6) Marcell Dareus

7) Kyle Williams

8) Jairus Byrd

9) Stephon Gilmore

10) Leodis McKelvin

11) Andy Levitre

12) Marshawn Lynch

13) Da'noris Searcy, Chris Hairston, Alex Carrington, Nigel Bradham, Arthur Moats, Ron Brooks, Aaron Williams................. here are 7 guys that could be as good as the 3 I said no to on the Pats* list.

I think there is no question the Bills have drafted better than the Pats* in this time frame.

[better days]

I didn't see very many 49er games outside of the playoffs but he wasn't impressive.

Obviously he wasn't that impressive to the 49ers either as they didn't even bother tagging him and just let him go.

Likely cuz he wasn't an important part of that defense.

More likely because they tagged him the year before & did not have the money under the cap to tag him again this year without hamstringing themselves.

[BillsFever21]

Wilfork was drafted while Pioli was still GM.

Gronk was a player the Pats* were able to get in the lower rnds even though he had 1st or 2nd rnd talent because of past injuries no other team wanted him that high. Looked GREAT for a while, we will see how it goes from here

Gronk wasn't a lower round pick. You said he had a 1st or 2nd round grade. He was drafted towards the top of the 2nd round.

Solder NO

Solder has been a decent lineman so far.

McCourty I will give you.

Jones.........I assume you mean Chandler not Donald but in either case NO

He had 6 sacks and 3 FF's in his rookie season and you're saying he sucks? I'd say that's a decent start to his career. Definitely not a waste.

Hightower......has potential.

Ridley NO

1,263 yards, 12 TD's and a 4.4 average ypc. I'll take that for a 3rd round draft pick

Not counting Wilfork or this years class, if I give them all to you that is 6 QUALITY players the Pats* have drafted.

Now lets look at the Bills draft over the same time:

1) Stevie Johnson

2) TJ Graham - What has he proven so far?

3) Cordy Glenn

4) Eric Wood

5) CJ Spiller

6) Marcell Dareus - Would be a decent pick so far if he wasn't the 3rd pick in the draft with nothing but pro bowlers selected around him

7) Kyle Williams

8) Jairus Byrd - I thoght he was average and wasn't worth a long-term extension?

9) Stephon Gilmore - Decent rookie campaign and has potential. Far from proven yet though.

10) Leodis McKelvin - Are you kidding me? You are lumping him into the category as a good draft pick? LOL

11) Andy Levitre

12) Da'noris Searcy, Chris Hairston, Alex Carrington, Nigel Bradham, Arthur Moats, Ron Brooks, Aaron Williams................. here are 7 guys that could be as good as the 3 I said no to on the Pats* list.

Hairston and Carrington has been decent backups/spot starters but far from dominant players. Searcy has barely even played yet. Moats is a backup at best. Brooks hasn't shown much and is a #3 CB at best. Are you seriously lumping Aaron Williams into the category as a good draft pick? That's just as bad or worse then the McKelvin one. He has been horrendous and we drafted him over Dalton and Kaepernick.

I think there is no question the Bills have drafted better than the Pats* in this time frame.

So basicaly you listed the few good proven picks we have had along with some young guys with potential. Along with that mix you list some others that are backups/roational starters and a couple more which are complete busts.

At the same time you basically list all of their players as horrible draft picks when they have been just as good or much better then many you have listed on our side during their short careers. You also failed to list guys like Asante Samuel and others who were good players.

They have also late draft positions every year while we have Top 10 draft picks every year along with a couple Top 5 draft picks. That's a big difference on the level of players you have a chance to draft over them. All them years of drafting high and what do really really have to show for it? A handful of proven draft picks and with one of them already gone and another one that will be after this season.

The Pats haven't been the best in the league at drafting and we haven't been the worse but don't act like it's the complete opposite. Listing McKelvin and Williams as good draft picks right now ruins all of your credibility. That along with listing Moats, Carrington and Solder in the same category of Chandler Jones, Solder and Hightower

[BillsFever21]

Damn you would think if we had drafted 11 top players and another 7 good players over the past 5 or 6 years we would be competing for the SB by now and not a six win team every season. That is almost an entire 22 man starting lineup of great draft picks according to better days. Please quit while you're ahead. You are losing credibility by calling McKelvin and Williams great draft picks along with guys like Brooks, Moats and others good players.

Also the majority of them guys have been drafted in the past 2 or 3 seasons. So I guess that means we have scored with an average of 5 top level or good NFL players over the past 3 drafts? This is just too much. Everyone of our draft picks are stars.

[better days]

Damn you would think if we had drafted 11 top players and another 7 good players over the past 5 or 6 years we would be competing for the SB by now and not a six win team every season. That is almost an entire 22 man starting lineup of great draft picks according to better days. Please quit while you're ahead. You are losing credibility by calling McKelvin and Williams great draft picks along with guys like Brooks, Moats and others good players.

Also the majority of them guys have been drafted in the past 2 or 3 seasons. So I guess that means we have scored with an average of 5 top level or good NFL players over the past 3 drafts? This is just too much. Everyone of our draft picks are stars.

This is why I think the Bills SHOULD win 8 games this year if Marrone is a decent Coach. The Bills DO have talent on the team.

[BillsFever21]

This is why I think the Bills SHOULD win 8 games this year if Marrone is a decent Coach. The Bills DO have talent on the team.

If you truly believe we have drafted around 15 top level players in the past three drafts then you are more delusional then I thought. You must be if you consider McKelvin a good pick along with Williams who has been terrible for his couple seasons. Not to mention throwing in several guys that has barely played at all in the group.

That would be unheard of for any NFL team in the history of the league to get an average of 5 top level or above average starting worthy players in each of the past three drafts. This is some good material. I'm sure Kelvin Sheppard would be on that list too had we not traded him this offseason.

[BillsFever21]

It wouldn't matter who the coach was if we truly did draft 18 top players over the past 5 years along with 15 of them over the past few seasons. That would mean we would basically have an entire starting lineup of top level or above average starters in the NFL. Anybody could have lead them to a winning season.

It's just another case of homerism that if they are on the Bills then they are a good player. If they leave the team or doesn't sign here then they really weren't that good to begin with. If that same player was with the Patriots, Jets or Dolphins they would be considered busts or average players at best.

[better days]

[/U]

Can't reply to your post as I would like because you responded within mine.

BUT Solder is decent, so is Hairston Neither is outstanding.

Not saying Chandler Jones sucks, he is decent, but so is Carrington. So far neither has been outstanding. Both have played well at times.

Ridley has put up numbers because EVERYONE was worried about the Pats* passing game, stopping Welker, Gronk, Hernandez................lets see what kind of numbers he puts up this year.

TJ Graham has PROVEN SPEED.

Byrd is BETTER than average NOBODY has called him average. He is NOT the best Safety in the NFL however.

Gilmore is MUCH MORE proven than Chandler Jones & Hightower. He had a GREAT rookie year playing the #1 CB position for the Bills last year. How many rookies are made the #1 CB their Rookie year? And then go on to have a great year? VERY FEW!

McKelvin................his return abilities alone make him a GREAT draft pick. And he started playing well at CB last year as well.

As I said those guys I lumped together at #13 could ALL be as GOOD as the 3 players I said no to from the Pats* as being outstanding. While Williams has not been a good CB, he may prove to be a GREAT Safety.

[EDS]

Wilfork was drafted while Pioli was still GM.

Gronk was a player the Pats* were able to get in the lower rnds even though he had 1st or 2nd rnd talent because of past injuries no other team wanted him that high. Looked GREAT for a while, we will see how it goes from here

Solder NO

McCourty I will give you.

Jones.........I assume you mean Chandler not Donald but in either case NO

Hightower......has potential.

Ridley NO

Not counting Wilfork or this years class, if I give them all to you that is 6 QUALITY players the Pats* have drafted.

Now lets look at the Bills draft over the same time:

1) Stevie Johnson

2) TJ Graham

3) Cordy Glenn

4) Eric Wood

5) CJ Spiller

6) Marcell Dareus

7) Kyle Williams

8) Jairus Byrd

9) Stephon Gilmore

10) Leodis McKelvin

11) Andy Levitre

12) Marshawn Lynch

13) Da'noris Searcy, Chris Hairston, Alex Carrington, Nigel Bradham, Arthur Moats, Ron Brooks, Aaron Williams................. here are 7 guys that could be as good as the 3 I said no to on the Pats* list.

I think there is no question the Bills have drafted better than the Pats* in this time frame.

How old are you?

[better days]

How old are you?

Why do you always ask people STUPID questions?

I am no doubt much older than you, & have been watching football much longer. I am 62 years old this year. How old are you, 13?

[BillsFever21]

Can't reply to your post as I would like because you responded within mine.

BUT Solder is decent, so is Hairston Neither is outstanding.

Not saying Chandler Jones sucks, he is decent, but so is Carrington. So far neither has been outstanding. Both have played well at times.

Ridley has put up numbers because EVERYONE was worried about the Pats* passing game, stopping Welker, Gronk, Hernandez................lets see what kind of numbers he puts up this year.

TJ Graham has PROVEN SPEED.

Byrd is BETTER than average NOBODY has called him average. He is NOT the best Safety in the NFL however.

Gilmore is MUCH MORE proven than Chandler Jones & Hightower. He had a GREAT rookie year playing the #1 CB position for the Bills last year. How many rookies are made the #1 CB their Rookie year? And then go on to have a great year? VERY FEW!

McKelvin................his return abilities alone make him a GREAT draft pick. And he started playing well at CB last year as well.

As I said those guys I lumped together at #13 could ALL be as GOOD as the 3 players I said no to from the Pats* as being outstanding. While Williams has not been a good CB, he may prove to be a GREAT Safety.

Here we go again LOL

TJ Graham has proven speed? LOL. Who cares if TJ Graham has proven speed. So does Usain Bolt along with many other WR's in the NFL. That doesn't make them good football players. He has yet to prove he is a top level WR yet like you claim? If that was the case then the NFL would be signing every track star in the world and making them a WR.

Many CB's drafted in the Top 10 end up as starters in their first season. Just like many player period who are drafted that high. Especially when you are on a bad team with Aaron Williams named the starter beside you it's not very hard to be named the #1 CB. He had a decent rookie year but he wasn't great. He committed tons of penalties. I think he will end up a good player but to say he was great last year? Come on man.

McKelvin's return abilities along make him worth a Top 10 draft pick? You are just too much. Maybe we should draft a PR in the first round next season? That's what I thought. Oh and he played some average football towards the end of his 5th year in the NFL. Yep that definitely makes him a GREAT draft pick. If only we had more of them like that. I'm sure the rest of the NFL is jealous and wish they didn't pass him up.

You have some very low standards of what is considered a great draft pick for the Bills compared to the rest of the NFL. Go outside and smell the roses some more while you're getting some fresh air.

[better days]

Here we go again LOL

TJ Graham has proven speed? LOL. Who cares if TJ Graham has proven speed. So does Usain Bolt along with many other WR's in the NFL. That doesn't make them good football players. He has yet to prove he is a top level WR yet like you claim? If that was the case then the NFL would be signing every track star in the world and making them a WR.

Many CB's drafted in the Top 10 end up as starters in their first season. Just like many player period who are drafted that high. Especially when you are on a bad team with Aaron Williams named the starter beside you it's not very hard to be named the #1 CB. He had a decent rookie year but he wasn't great. He committed tons of penalties. I think he will end up a good player but to say he was great last year? Come on man.

McKelvin's return abilities along make him worth a Top 10 draft pick? You are just too much. Maybe we should draft a PR in the first round next season? That's what I thought. Oh and he played some average football towards the end of his 5th year in the NFL. Yep that definitely makes him a GREAT draft pick. If only we had more of them like that. I'm sure the rest of the NFL is jealous and wish they didn't pass him up.

You have some very low standards of what is considered a great draft pick for the Bills compared to the rest of the NFL. Go outside and smell the roses some more while you're getting some fresh air.

You have said Byrd has changed games. Well, McKelvin has changed MANY MORE games in the Bills favor than Byrd has. McKelvin is a GAME CHANGER & a GREAT draft pick.

TJ Graham has proven as much as the Pats* players you named. And he did so with Fitz as his QB, not Brady.

[BillsFever21]

You have said Byrd has changed games. Well, McKelvin has changed MANY MORE games in the Bills favor than Byrd has. McKelvin is a GAME CHANGER & a GREAT draft pick.

TJ Graham has proven as much as the Pats* players you named. And he did so with Fitz as his QB, not Brady.

You are just too much. Many good returners make some plays. It doesn't mean they are worth a top 10 draft pick. He has given up a hell of a lot more plays/points that hurt this team then he has made in the return game. Get a grip on reality.

McKelvin sure has changed many more games then Byrd has...but for the worse with his play as a CB. Byrd's plays directly lead/secured three victories alone last season. You are amazing if you can sit there and say that McKelvin has lead to more victories then Byrd.

He has 4 career returns for a TD in 5 seasons and has played awful football at CB. That is a great draft pick when taken in the top 10 by your standards? You need help. Hell his play at CB has resulted in at least 4 TD's given up every season. I would say that is a net negative.

I guess in your view special team returners who give you an average of less then 1 TD a season is worth a top 10 draft pick. What kind of warped world are you living in? LOL

[Mr Bills]

Here we go again LOL

TJ Graham has proven speed? LOL. Who cares if TJ Graham has proven speed. So does Usain Bolt along with many other WR's in the NFL. That doesn't make them good football players. He has yet to prove he is a top level WR yet like you claim? If that was the case then the NFL would be signing every track star in the world and making them a WR.

Many CB's drafted in the Top 10 end up as starters in their first season. Just like many player period who are drafted that high. Especially when you are on a bad team with Aaron Williams named the starter beside you it's not very hard to be named the #1 CB. He had a decent rookie year but he wasn't great. He committed tons of penalties. I think he will end up a good player but to say he was great last year? Come on man.

McKelvin's return abilities along make him worth a Top 10 draft pick? You are just too much. Maybe we should draft a PR in the first round next season? That's what I thought. Oh and he played some average football towards the end of his 5th year in the NFL. Yep that definitely makes him a GREAT draft pick. If only we had more of them like that. I'm sure the rest of the NFL is jealous and wish they didn't pass him up.

You have some very low standards of what is considered a great draft pick for the Bills compared to the rest of the NFL. Go outside and smell the roses some more while you're getting some fresh air.

I remember him last year trying to convince everyone how Fitzpatrick should be the starting QB in 2012 and that the Bills would of been stupid to trade for RGIII. How does that look now? Honestly fans like him will buy whatever OBD does no matter how stupid it is. I mean the only reason McKelvin isn't a bust is because of his returning abilities, but to call him a great pick??? Just LOL....

[BillsFever21]

I remember him last year trying to convince everyone how Fitzpatrick should be the starting QB in 2012 and that the Bills would of been stupid to trade for RGIII. How does that look now? Honestly fans like him will buy whatever OBD does no matter how stupid it is. I mean the only reason McKelvin isn't a bust is because of his returning abilities, but to call him a great pick??? Just LOL....

He is still a bust even with his return abilities. You don't draft a guy in the top 10 for his return abilities. You draft guys in the middle rounds because they are good return guys.

[GingerP]

TJ Graham has proven as much as the Pats* players you named. And he did so with Fitz as his QB, not Brady.

TJ right now is just another guy who hasn't done anything yet. Yeah, he is really fast. So isn't DeMarcus Van Dyke. Big whoop.

I think you can criticize the Pats for some of their draft mistakes. They have really struggled in some places, like drafting players in the secondary. They have done a good job in some other spots, especially on the OL. When comparing them to the Bills drafts, you have to take into account that they generally have much poorer draft position.

Besides that, the difference is when they do hit on a player he is really good player. They drafted guys like Brady, Gostkowski, Gronkowski, Mankins, Mayo, Slater, Vollmer and Wilfork that are among the better players at their positions in the NFL. They have some more recent guys like Solder, Ridley, Spikes, McCourty, Hightower & Chandler who look like they can be those kind of players if they can maintain their play they have shown so far. They get enough good core players to stay competitive, despite low drafting position, and they usually hold onto them.

That is what is frustrating about the Byrd situation. Here is a young core player the Bills drafted who became one of the best at his position in the NFL and they haven't locked him up. Levitre was a core-type guy they let get away and Wood is another they need to make a priority. When you get those guys keep them, like they did with Kyle Williams.

[EDS]

Why do you always ask people STUPID questions?

I am no doubt much older than you, & have been watching football much longer. I am 62 years old this year. How old are you, 13?

I ask because to suggest that TJ Graham is a good pick and Solder or Chandler Jones are not good picks is evidence of a fundamental lack of understanding of the game of football. No GM in football would trade Jones for Graham, Hairston and Searcy combined.

[GingerP]

They drafted guys like Brady, Gostkowski, Gronkowski, Mankins, Mayo, Slater, Vollmer and Wilfork that are among the better players at their positions in the NFL. They have some more recent guys like Solder, Ridley, Spikes, McCourty, Hightower & Chandler who look like they can be those kind of players if they can maintain their play they have shown so far.

BTW, the guys listed in the first statement are there because they have both proven to be really good players and are extended beyond their rookie contract. The young guys I listed after are younger players they have that have shown promise and are on their rookie deals, so those are the guys they will try to lock up next if they sustain their play.

The point is, Byrd should be the guy the Bills locked up because he proved to be a core player. Levitre as well. When you do hit on a pick and he proves he is good, the team needs to keep them more often than not. That is how teams are able to build a core and get better. Byrd and Levitre should have been locked up before they even reached free agency, they should be on their second contracts.

I'm sick of talking about young players with potential. I want to see core players who are locked up as a foundation for building a winning team. The Bills need to do a better job than that, and the Byrd situation makes one wonder if they have learned anything.

[BillsFever21]

I ask because to suggest that TJ Graham is a good pick and Solder or Chandler Jones are not good picks is evidence of a fundamental lack of understanding of the game of football. No GM in football would trade Jones for Graham, Hairston and Searcy combined.

The understanding is easy.

Bills player = Great or Good

Divisional player = Average or bad

If they are no longer with the Bills or in a contract dispute with them = Average or bad.

[Mr. Pink]

You have said Byrd has changed games. Well, McKelvin has changed MANY MORE games in the Bills favor than Byrd has. McKelvin is a GAME CHANGER & a GREAT draft pick.

TJ Graham has proven as much as the Pats* players you named. And he did so with Fitz as his QB, not Brady.

McKelvin has changed one game that I can think of. He helped the Pats beat us by fumbling on a kick returner.

- - - Updated - - -


The understanding is easy.

Bills player = Great or Good

Divisional player = Average or bad

If they are no longer with the Bills or in a contract dispute with them = Average or bad.

The last statement is the best part!

Byrd was awesome, until Monday. Now he's average and not worth even what Goldson got in FA.

[better days]

I remember him last year trying to convince everyone how Fitzpatrick should be the starting QB in 2012 and that the Bills would of been stupid to trade for RGIII. How does that look now? Honestly fans like him will buy whatever OBD does no matter how stupid it is. I mean the only reason McKelvin isn't a bust is because of his returning abilities, but to call him a great pick??? Just LOL....

I don't know what you are talking about. I was all for giving TJax a shot at QB. And the Bills had NO SHOT at trading for RGIII.

SHOW US THE POST OR POSTS YOU ARE REFERRING TO.

[jdaltroy5]

Wilfork was drafted while Pioli was still GM.

Gronk was a player the Pats* were able to get in the lower rnds even though he had 1st or 2nd rnd talent because of past injuries no other team wanted him that high. Looked GREAT for a while, we will see how it goes from here

Solder NO

McCourty I will give you.

Jones.........I assume you mean Chandler not Donald but in either case NO

Hightower......has potential.

Ridley NO

Not counting Wilfork or this years class, if I give them all to you that is 6 QUALITY players the Pats* have drafted.

Now lets look at the Bills draft over the same time:

1) Stevie Johnson

2) TJ Graham

3) Cordy Glenn

4) Eric Wood

5) CJ Spiller

6) Marcell Dareus

7) Kyle Williams

8) Jairus Byrd

9) Stephon Gilmore

10) Leodis McKelvin

11) Andy Levitre

12) Marshawn Lynch

13) Da'noris Searcy, Chris Hairston, Alex Carrington, Nigel Bradham, Arthur Moats, Ron Brooks, Aaron Williams................. here are 7 guys that could be as good as the 3 I said no to on the Pats* list.

I think there is no question the Bills have drafted better than the Pats* in this time frame.

This list makes my brain hurt.

You're saying some of the Pats picks have potential, but are unproven but then spew off guys like Carrington, Searcy, Hairston, Bradham, Moats, Williams, Dareus, Glenn, Gilmore, and Graham.

[better days]

This list makes my brain hurt.

You're saying some of the Pats picks have potential, but are unproven but then spew off guys like Carrington, Searcy, Hairston, Bradham, Moats, Williams, Dareus, Glenn, Gilmore, and Graham.

I'm not saying the players on the Pats* list are worse than the Bills I listed. I am saying the Bills list has twice as many players on it.

[jdaltroy5]

I'm not saying the players on the Pats* list are worse than the Bills I listed. I am saying the Bills list has twice as many players on it.
Yeah because you just added more mediocre players to it.

[OpIv37]

You have said Byrd has changed games. Well, McKelvin has changed MANY MORE games in the Bills favor than Byrd has. McKelvin is a GAME CHANGER & a GREAT draft pick.

TJ Graham has proven as much as the Pats* players you named. And he did so with Fitz as his QB, not Brady.

Only if "changing games" means fumbling away a rare chance to beat the Pats and watching TD passes wiz past his head, you're right.

Once again, these are the statements that completely destroy your credibility.

McKelvin has NEVER lived up to his draft status. He's never been more than average at CB and the only reason he's still on the team is his return ability. And even though he's a great returner, he still makes some very questionable decisions sometimes, like trying to field a punt on the run. The guy's not an all-out bust like some of our other draft picks but he's certainly not a GREAT draft pick.

[OpIv37]

This list makes my brain hurt.

You're saying some of the Pats picks have potential, but are unproven but then spew off guys like Carrington, Searcy, Hairston, Bradham, Moats, Williams, Dareus, Glenn, Gilmore, and Graham.

he does stuff like that all the time. He'll talk about how great a Bills draft pick or unproven 2nd year player is, meanwhile he'll write off similar players on the Pats. The best example is WR- he's convinced we upgraded our WR's because of Graham and this year's picks, but he writes off the Pats' receivers without Welker and Hernandez because they've never worked with Brady before. This is despite the fact that they have Bellicheck calling the plays and Brady throwing the ball. The "logic" is mind-numbing.

[better days]

Only if "changing games" means fumbling away a rare chance to beat the Pats and watching TD passes wiz past his head, you're right.

Once again, these are the statements that completely destroy your credibility.

McKelvin has NEVER lived up to his draft status. He's never been more than average at CB and the only reason he's still on the team is his return ability. And even though he's a great returner, he still makes some very questionable decisions sometimes, like trying to field a punt on the run. The guy's not an all-out bust like some of our other draft picks but he's certainly not a GREAT draft pick.

I have to admit that Play against the Pats* was incredibly STUPID. Aside from that STUPID play though McKelvin is a great return man & will be the #2 CB for this team.

[jdaltroy5]

he does stuff like that all the time. He'll talk about how great a Bills draft pick or unproven 2nd year player is, meanwhile he'll write off similar players on the Pats. The best example is WR- he's convinced we upgraded our WR's because of Graham and this year's picks, but he writes off the Pats' receivers without Welker and Hernandez because they've never worked with Brady before. This is despite the fact that they have Bellicheck calling the plays and Brady throwing the ball. The "logic" is mind-numbing.
Homers will always be homers and I honestly don't have a problem with that.

As long as people REALIZE that they are homers and can have a good chuckle about it.

It's the guys that think they are completely objective that blow my mind.

[jdaltroy5]

I have to admit that Play against the Pats* was incredibly STUPID. Aside from that STUPID play though McKelvin is a great return man & will be the #2 CB for this team.
Yeah, but you want a great player that plays half the game with the 11th overall pick. Not a return man.

[better days]

he does stuff like that all the time. He'll talk about how great a Bills draft pick or unproven 2nd year player is, meanwhile he'll write off similar players on the Pats. The best example is WR- he's convinced we upgraded our WR's because of Graham and this year's picks, but he writes off the Pats' receivers without Welker and Hernandez because they've never worked with Brady before. This is despite the fact that they have Bellicheck calling the plays and Brady throwing the ball. The "logic" is mind-numbing.

The loss of Welker & Hernandez is MUCH BIGGER for the Pats* than the loss of Byrd would be for the Bills. And yes I believe the Bills added BETTER receivers this offseason than the Pats* did.

[jdaltroy5]

The loss of Welker & Hernandez is MUCH BIGGER for the Pats* than the loss of Byrd would be for the Bills. And yes I believe the Bills added BETTER receivers this offseason than the Pats* did.
Of course you do.

And why do you always put an asterisk next Pats?

[OpIv37]

The loss of Welker & Hernandez is MUCH BIGGER for the Pats* than the loss of Byrd would be for the Bills. And yes I believe the Bills added BETTER receivers this offseason than the Pats* did.

I never said the loss of Byrd was the equivalent of the Pats losing Welker and Hernandez so I don't know where that came from.

And it's not just about the WRs. It's about the QB throwing to them and the OL protecting the QB and the coaches designing and calling the plays.

[stuckincincy]

Of course you do.

And why do you always put an asterisk next Pats?

AFAIK, that started on the Two Bills Drive site, signifying that their record is tainted by their cheating ways.

[Goobylal]

Hernandez and Welker are huge losses. Hernandez was versatile enough to let them play no huddle because he could lineup anywhere, a la Thurman. And Welker was a pass-catching machine. Amendola will be lucky to get half his stats, given his lack of durability, especially since teams will be putting a little extra mustard on their hits on Amendola. As for their WR's, they have no one else proven and the Pats' system has made better/more accomplished WR's look like rookies. Teams will double-down on Gronk and single-cover their other WR's. I can actually see the Pats going back to mostly a screen game.

[DraftBoy]

The only point I'd make about this is that both Williams and Meeks are SS types that play in the box, they aren't FS guys who cover ground and play the ball like Byrd does. The Williams move helps gives us some cover, but Williams isn't as smooth as athlete as Byrd though both are converted CB's.

[OpIv37]

Hernandez and Welker are huge losses. Hernandez was versatile enough to let them play no huddle because he could lineup anywhere, a la Thurman. And Welker was a pass-catching machine. Amendola will be lucky to get half his stats, given his lack of durability, especially since teams will be putting a little extra mustard on their hits on Amendola. As for their WR's, they have no one else proven and the Pats' system has made better/more accomplished WR's look like rookies. Teams will double-down on Gronk and single-cover their other WR's. I can actually see the Pats going back to mostly a screen game.

That's the problem I have with what better days is saying. He looks at our WR's as being upgraded from when we had Jones and Nelson, but we have Stevie (whom we had last year as well), sophomore Graham who didn't get much playing time and is unproven, and a few rookies.

It's just illogical to dismiss the Pats' WR's as being unproven while already touting our WR's as being improved like better days does. . And it's even worse when you factor in how NE has gotten production out of any WR they've plugged into their system whereas the Bills have new coaches and a new QB and no one knows how they will do.

[better days]

That's the problem I have with what better days is saying. He looks at our WR's as being upgraded from when we had Jones and Nelson, but we have Stevie (whom we had last year as well), sophomore Graham who didn't get much playing time and is unproven, and a few rookies.

It's just illogical to dismiss the Pats' WR's as being unproven while already touting our WR's as being improved like better days does. . And it's even worse when you factor in how NE has gotten production out of any WR they've plugged into their system whereas the Bills have new coaches and a new QB and no one knows how they will do.

I am not saying the Pats* won't get any production from the receivers. With Brady at QB, of course they will get SOME production even from that motley crew.

Here is the point I was making: The Pats* receiver group last year was the equivalent of a NEW Mercedes Benz. The Bills receiver group last year was the equivalent of an Edsel.

And the Bills did not have Nelson last year, the Bills would have been the equivalent of a 2001 Dodge PT Cruser last year if they had.

This year until proven otherwise, both groups are the equivalent of a Ford Focus. The Pats* traded DOWN, while the Bills traded UP.

[Night Train]

Here's another way of the Bills looking at it (not me). Could explain their thinking, right or wrong.

Several times I've heard Pettine state the Safties are " Interchangeable " . If so, why pay one Safety 9 Mil while the rest as a group don't even make half that ? Byrd isn't the big safety type Pettine has favored, such as Reed & Landry.

[OpIv37]

I am not saying the Pats* won't get any production from the receivers. With Brady at QB, of course they will get SOME production even from that motley crew.

Here is the point I was making: The Pats* receiver group last year was the equivalent of a NEW Mercedes Benz. The Bills receiver group last year was the equivalent of an Edsel.

This year until proven otherwise, both groups are the equivalent of a Ford Focus. The Pats* traded DOWN, while the Bills traded UP.

I agree with the assessment of last year. I disagree with the assessment of this year. I think the Bills are the equivalent of a Ford Focus. I think the Pats are more like an old Corvette. You know it still has a lot of power under the hood- it's just a matter of whether the tires and the body are up to the task.

And nice Edsall reference.

[OpIv37]

Here's another way of the Bills looking at it (not me). Could explain their thinking, right or wrong.

Several times I've heard Pettine state the Safties are " Interchangeable " . If so, why pay one Safety 9 Mil while the rest as a group don't even make half that ? Byrd isn't the big safety type Pettine has favored, such as Reed & Landry.

Could just be his line to the media.

More importantly, I don't buy that logic. People said the same thing about the corners when we switched to the 3-4. It didn't really work out like that, did it? There's no system that makes any particular position "interchangeable." Obviously some systems put more pressure on certain positions than others, but a true star at a position is always a benefit and can never be easily replaced.

[better days]

I agree with the assessment of last year. I disagree with the assessment of this year. I think the Bills are the equivalent of a Ford Focus. I think the Pats are more like an old Corvette. You know it still has a lot of power under the hood- it's just a matter of whether the tires and the body are up to the task.

And nice Edsall reference.

I like the reference to the Corvette. Brady is the engine that drives that machine. Still has the horsepower, but he now has miles on him & I think that Corvette is not a Restored Cherry Classic 1960, but more like a mid 80's Vette with bondo patching cracked fiberglass covered by primer & tires with little thread.

[stuckincincy]

I'm interested to see if Williams makes the conversion to safety. Several posters have stated that coming out of college, he was considered a decent safety prospect. That reminds me of T. McGee - I recall reading scouting reports that said his best position was safety.

I still scratch my head that it took the Bills a couple of seasons to get him into the return game - the same scouting reports gushed about his special teams talent.