Is The Read Option Going The Way of The Wildcat?

[BillsImpossible]

RG3, injured.

EJ Manuel, injured too...thankfully not as bad as Griffin was/is.

QB matters most in the NFL. Coaches that know better are telling their QB's to rely upon their arms instead of their legs.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000251037/article/kyle-shanahan-readoption-plays-no-longer-easy

Read Option Plays No Longer 'Easy'

------------------

Defensive coordinators all over the National Football League spent the entire off-season devising schemes and plans to shutdown the read option.

[BillsFever21]

It's definitely in a decreased role. Defensive Coordinators didn't know how to defend it this year. Now you have very few QB's getting much rushing yardage this year. They are still running the read option but the QB's aren't taking off and running very much. Outside of Wilson and Pryor the QB's haven't rushed for many yards.

Manuel doesn't have blazing speed as it is. I don't even see why they are running the option with him. He has the ability to take off and run when it's needed but he isn't a great runner with great speed to use in that role. He needs to be a QB that can run and not a running QB.

The read option has been useless with Manuel at the helm because he doesn't have the speed that Kapernick, RJ3 and other QB's have. It only has a chance to work if the defense needs to worry about the QB breaking one for 50 yards. This isn't the case with Manuel.

[Homegrown]

It's definitely in a decreased role. Defensive Coordinators didn't know how to defend it this year. Now you have very few QB's getting much rushing yardage this year. Aren't those statements contradictory? ...

[Mace]

Trends need even themselves out. It will always be a viable sub package but knees just don't hold up well in it. Wildcat also, or hurry up offense. Stuff looks great in theory until it meets large powerful defenders in organized schemes who run really fast and run into you very forcefully, over and over until something breaks. And it will be a knee.

One day it will trend to fullback QB's who can at best throw 5 yards with the wind. They will get injured knees as well.

[BillsFever21]

Aren't those statements contradictory? ...

Sorry was a typo. I meant they didn't know how to defend it last year.

Last year you had QB's running wild. This year it few and far between. The biggest one's from last year like Kapernick and RG3 are barely running at all and Kapernick wasn't even injured.

[Mace]

Sorry was a typo. I meant they didn't know how to defend it last year.

Last year you had QB's running wild. This year it few and far between. The biggest one's from last year like Kapernick and RG3 are barely running at all and Kapernick wasn't even injured.

Knees.

[better days]

Damn, I didn't realize Hoyer was a read option QB.

[Mouldsie]

I liked Warren Sapp's quote last year when RO was making headlines saying it wouldn't last long, something to the effect of "The fastest evolving thing in the world is the NFL defense" or "the fastest evolving organism is an NFL defensive coordinator." He was right.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Er, what? Has anyone watched an Eagles game? They are #1 in the NFL in rushing, a full yard/carry ahead of the #2 running the option-heaviest attack the NFL has seen in decades.

[GingerP]

Er, what? Has anyone watched an Eagles game? They are #1 in the NFL in rushing, a full yard/carry ahead of the #2 running the option-heaviest attack the NFL has seen in decades.

Their QB is already injured and there is no saying he lasts the year, which underscores the points. It has only been 5 games, let's see how it plays out over the course of the season. Kelly is a smart coach, and he likely will have to scale back the read-option stuff to keep his guys healthy. He is going to burn out McCoy, who is on pace for 350+ touches and doesn't have the frame for that workload.

Also, the Eagles also have been a pretty good rushing team for years, so they have the personnel. They dropped to 13th last year with injuries, but were 5th in rushing in the NFL in 2010 & 2011. With Shady McCoy they would be a pretty good rushing team no matter what system they ran.

In the end, there is a place for read-option in the NFL, but I doubt teams will run it all the time. It just exposes QBs to too many hits, and read-option teams are already scaling back the runs and throwing more. In college you can get away with that, since the rosters are deeper. In the NFL, you have to protect your QB, because defenses are going to take their shots.

[The Popcorn]

It's just a fad. When a QB gets blasted with a career-ending injury, it'll be off to the boneyard with the Wishbone.

[TigerJ]

I think the read option has a little more staying power than the wildcat. QBs that take off and run can't get too greedy though. Manuel needs to remember he's not Superman and slide when he gets a first down and the defensive player is bearing down on him. It's fighting for the extra yards that raises the injury risk to levels we don't want to see.

[JoeMama]

The read option is a stupid gimmick. It will fizzle out just like the wildcat.

Pocket passers are still king in the NFL and I doubt that changes anytime soon.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

So, how does everyone feel about it now? Thad Lewis ran the crap out of the wildcat this afternoon, and it made a practice squaddie in his second start ever into a viable threat against a Top 10 defense.

It's much easier to run than it is to defend, so it's always going to have a place in the league.

[JoeMama]

So, how does everyone feel about it now? Thad Lewis ran the crap out of the wildcat this afternoon, and it made a practice squaddie in his second start ever into a viable threat against a Top 10 defense.

It's much easier to run than it is to defend, so it's always going to have a place in the league.

Yeah the wildcat was so awesome we lost by 3 instead of 10.

Woo! Wildcat!

Shows us.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Yeah the wildcat was so awesome we lost by 3 instead of 10.

Woo! Wildcat!

Shows us.

Practice.
Squad.
QB.

In his second start ever. Do you honestly think if we brought out Lewis and had him run a pro style offense that we'd have put up 24 points?

[Mr. Pink]

Some people are stuck on the mentality that QBs that run are a fad.

It's okay though cuz at one time the forward pass was a fad too.

[JoeMama]

Practice.
Squad.
QB.

In his second start ever. Do you honestly think if we brought out Lewis and had him run a pro style offense that we'd have put up 24 points?

So they got a few meaningless points in a losing effort from a mediocre QB.

I'm so impressed.

Meanwhile Chad Henne and the worst team in the NFL are hanging in there with the Broncos.

Even blind squirrels find a nut every once in a while.

[JoeMama]

Some people are stuck on the mentality that QBs that run are a fad.

It's okay though cuz at one time the forward pass was a fad too.

Passing QBs rule the NFL.

These trendy "run first" QBs have been overhyped ever since the 1999 draft and not a single one of them hoists the Lombardi.

Winning in the NFL is still all about pocket passers.

I'll take Brees, Brady, Rodgers, etc etc, over flashes in the pan like Vick that have breathtaking runs every once in a while.

Ooh, aww, a run.

That's why we have runningbacks. You can keep these modern running QBs. They're bums.

[WagonCircler]

Practice.
Squad.
QB.

Who was running the Wildcat because he couldn't handle anything else.

[JoeMama]

Who was running the Wildcat because he couldn't handle anything else.

Exactly.

If you're running the wildcat, it's to mask the horrible play of your QB as as a passer.

Manning, Rodgers, Brady, etc etc, they don't need smoke and mirrors to win games.

Because they can PASS.

The wildcat is what teams with ****ty QBs do in order to desperately hide the flaws of their personnel.

[Mr. Pink]

Exactly.

If you're running the wildcat, it's to mask the horrible play of your QB as as a passer.

Manning, Rodgers, Brady, etc etc, they don't need smoke and mirrors to win games.

Because they can PASS.

The wildcat is what teams with ****ty QBs do in order to desperately hide the flaws of their personnel.

So the teams that run read option offenses have crap QBs?

Russel Wilson, Kaepernick and RGIII are crap QBs now!

[JoeMama]

So the teams that run read option offenses have crap QBs?

Russel Wilson, Kaepernick and RGIII are crap QBs now!

When one of those guys hoist a Lombardi, you let me know.

Wilson's been figured out. Kaepernick has been horrific since week 1. RGIII looks broken and battered (read option QBs are going to get killed in today's NFL).

Yeah, you might say I'm comfortable saying pocket passers are better.

You might even say I'm REAL comfortable saying that.

[Mr. Pink]

When one of those guys hoist a Lombardi, you let me know.

Wilson's been figured out. Kaepernick has been horrific since week 1. RGIII looks broken and battered (read option QBs are going to get killed in today's NFL).

Yeah, you might say I'm comfortable saying pocket passers are better.

You might even say I'm REAL comfortable saying that.

Ok, so when one of those 3 wins a SB you'll finally admit that you can win in the NFL with that style of offense? Not the fact that all three of those QBs made the playoffs last year and one was playing in the Superbowl last year. Two of the three will be leading their respective teams to the playoffs again this year.

[JoeMama]

Ok, so when one of those 3 wins a SB you'll finally admit that you can win in the NFL with that style of offense? Not the fact that all three of those QBs made the playoffs last year and one was playing in the Superbowl last year. Two of the three will be leading their respective teams to the playoffs again this year.

I'll be here with bated breath.

A running QB won't beat a passing QB in the SB anytime soon.

Hell, Kaep had the added bonus of playing a pedestrian passer like Joe Flacco and still got his **** ruined.

Speaks volumes.

[BillsImpossible]

Flacco is not a runner, but he's got a ring.

Brady is not a runner, but he's got three rings.

Big Ben is not a runner, but he's got two rings.

Eli Manning is not a runner, but he's got two rings.

Peyton Manning is not a runner, and he's the best quarterback in the game today.

Brett Favre was not a runner, but he's still one of the greatest QB's of all time.

Jim Kelly was not a runner, but he's also one of the best ever..

Dan Marino is the farthest thing from a running QB, but he's still one of the best QB's in NFL history.

Drew Brees is not a running QB either, but he still has a ring.

Kurt Warner was not a running QB.

Troy Aikman was not a running QB.

Joe Montana was not a running QB.

John Elway was not a running QB.

Great NFL QB's have one thing in common. They don't run the ball much.

[Mr. Pink]

John Elway didn't run? You didn't watch Elway play then. He's 6th all time in QB rushing yards.

I can see your list and throw in Cunningham, Young. McNabb and McNair took their teams to SBs and lost.

Roger Staubach had his best rushing season the first year the Cowboys won the SB.

When Tarkenton retired he basically held every QB record imaginable, including the rushing ones and still holds an NFL record with 15 straight seasons with a rushing TD.

[BillsImpossible]

I did watch Elway play. He was a passer first and a runner as a last resort. When Elway did run, he was very good. But he relied upon his arm 95% of the time to win.

Go Saints!!!

[jdaltroy5]

The Read option can be very dynamic, but I just don't think it's a solution for long term, sustainable success.

Seattle and San Fran didn't become successful because of the read option. They won their divisions because they have 2 of the top 4 defenses.

I think a read option team COULD eventually win the Super Bowl, but I just don't think you'll ever see a read-option team with a pedestrian defense be a perennial contender.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I'll take Brees, Brady, Rodgers, etc etc, over flashes in the pan like Vick that have breathtaking runs every once in a while.

Why do people say this like it's a revelation? Of course you'd take Brees, Brady, and Rodgers, they're three of the best pocket passers ever. Finding a hall of fame dropback passer is really, really difficult. Would you still take a pocket passer like Blaine Gabbert over a hall of fame running QB like Tarkenton? Of course you wouldn't.


Who was running the Wildcat because he couldn't handle anything else.

....? That's exactly what I was getting at. In fact, you edited out the part of my post where I discussed that specifically so you could say this.

Lewis is not going to win games if you put him in an offense where he's dropping back and going through 3 or more reads. He's just not that good a player. But if you make him a running threat, then you shift the numbers in the offense's favor and simplify his decision making.


I'll be here with bated breath.

A running QB won't beat a passing QB in the SB anytime soon.

Hell, Kaep had the added bonus of playing a pedestrian passer like Joe Flacco and still got his **** ruined.

Speaks volumes.

Kaepernick threw for 300+ yards and led them inside the 5 yard line for the winning points. "Got his **** ruined"?

[DraftBoy]

It's definitely in a decreased role. Defensive Coordinators didn't know how to defend it this year. Now you have very few QB's getting much rushing yardage this year. They are still running the read option but the QB's aren't taking off and running very much. Outside of Wilson and Pryor the QB's haven't rushed for many yards.

Manuel doesn't have blazing speed as it is. I don't even see why they are running the option with him. He has the ability to take off and run when it's needed but he isn't a great runner with great speed to use in that role. He needs to be a QB that can run and not a running QB.

The read option has been useless with Manuel at the helm because he doesn't have the speed that Kapernick, RJ3 and other QB's have. It only has a chance to work if the defense needs to worry about the QB breaking one for 50 yards. This isn't the case with Manuel.

The scheme was never designed for only speed QB's to utilize, that's part of what made it so different.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Seattle and San Fran didn't become successful because of the read option.

No one becomes successful because of one play concept, but you can't deny its effect.


I think a read option team COULD eventually win the Super Bowl, but I just don't think you'll ever see a read-option team with a pedestrian defense be a perennial contender.

You'll never see any rushing-based offense be a perennial contender without a stout defense. That's just the nature of the NFL. But as a trick in your playbook, it can be very productive.

[BillsFever21]

Having a QB that can run isn't a fad but the read option has been neutralized this season outside of a few QB's. There's a big difference from a QB that can run and a running QB. Andrew Luck is a pocket passer but he can take off and run when it's needed to pick up a first down or a big running play. If guys like RG3, Wilson and Kapernick can become developed accurate pocket passers then they would be tough to contain if they use their legs once in a while by design and when it's needed and a play breaks down.

There is a difference from a QB that can run when he needs to or to keep the defense honest and respect it. It's different if that QB isn't a very good passer and his main asset is taking off and running. When you have a QB that is a good pocket passer but also has the speed to run when it's needed or once in a while by design then that makes a good weapon.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

RG3, injured.

EJ Manuel, injured too...thankfully not as bad as Griffin was/is.

QB matters most in the NFL. Coaches that know better are telling their QB's to rely upon their arms instead of their legs.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000251037/article/kyle-shanahan-readoption-plays-no-longer-easy

Read Option Plays No Longer 'Easy'

------------------

Defensive coordinators all over the National Football League spent the entire off-season devising schemes and plans to shutdown the read option.

Always was a gimmick. Its why Scam Newton and the new generation of mobile qb are mostly on teams with losing records and why statues like Brady, Manning, and Brees are on teams that have lost two games between them. Alex Smith and the Chiefs are an anomoly but then again that team just wins because of a savage defense and its heavy reliance on its rushing game.

[WagonCircler]

That's exactly what I was getting at. In fact, you edited out the part of my post where I discussed that specifically so you could say this.

Lewis is not going to win games if you put him in an offense where he's dropping back and going through 3 or more reads. He's just not that good a player. But if you make him a running threat, then you shift the numbers in the offense's favor and simplify his decision making.

Lewis is not going to win games, period. If you make him a running threat only, he becomes even easier to neutralize.

What we're seeing with these "running QBs" league-wide is the logic behind why these one-dimensional idiots were so sparingly used in the first place.

The NFL QB is far and away the most cerebral and intense position in any sport. And, like somebody recently said, the most adaptable, efficient thing in the world is the NFL Defensive Coordinator. You may fool them for half a season or so, but they identify, adjust and shut you down.

This is exactly why I laughed my ass off at all the morons who were gushing about how Scam Newton and Michael Vick were "Revolutionizing the QB position."

Utterly ridiculous.

You know who's revolutionizing the QB position? The ugly, awkward guy with the giant forehead, dressed in orange. He's the hybrid Offensive Coordinator/QB who studies photographs of the Defense on the sidelines.

[pmoon6]

John Elway didn't run? You didn't watch Elway play then. He's 6th all time in QB rushing yards.

I can see your list and throw in Cunningham, Young. McNabb and McNair took their teams to SBs and lost.

Roger Staubach had his best rushing season the first year the Cowboys won the SB.

When Tarkenton retired he basically held every QB record imaginable, including the rushing ones and still holds an NFL record with 15 straight seasons with a rushing TD.Roger Staubach ran early in his career to Tom Landry's chagrin. It only took one play for Roger to come over to Landry's way of thinking. Marlin McKeever put him on the bench for awhile when he broke his shoulder. After that, Staubach would run around in the backfield to make plays, but was more judicious taking off down field. The same with Tarkenton. I would point out that the Bears in the same era had a running QB, Bobby Douglas with designed runs for him. They were less than effective.

Bottom line is the read option is a novelty offense. It can be used sometimes and the QB can run out of it sometimes, but if you want to run it full time you will fail. Like any new offensive strategy throughout the history of the NFL, defenses will catch up with their own scheme to stop it. They are already caught up to the option just like the Wildcat, the Wishbone (Never was used much or successful in the NFL) or the Veer T (The Wishbones' predecessor) These are college offenses where you don't have the concentrated talent the NFL does.

Wanting your QB to have ten or twelve carries a game may give you a big chubby, but it's going to get him killed. As long as your QB can move in the pocket, roll and escape, that's all you really need.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

Lewis is not going to win games, period. If you make him a running threat only, he becomes even easier to neutralize.

What we're seeing with these "running QBs" league-wide is the logic behind why these one-dimensional idiots were so sparingly used in the first place.

The NFL QB is far and away the most cerebral and intense position in any sport. And, like somebody recently said, the most adaptable, efficient thing in the world is the NFL Defensive Coordinator. You may fool them for half a season or so, but they identify, adjust and shut you down.

This is exactly why I laughed my ass off at all the morons who were gushing about how Scam Newton and Michael Vick were "Revolutionizing the QB position."

Utterly ridiculous.

You know who's revolutionizing the QB position? The ugly, awkward guy with the giant forehead, dressed in orange. He's the hybrid Offensive Coordinator/QB who studies photographs of the Defense on the sidelines.

Just curious, what are your thoughts on say Randall Cunningham? To me, I think he was one of the most competitive guys in league history and had a hell of an arm, but only reached his full potential as a QB in Minnesota when he stayed in the pocket and only occassionally rolled out.

[pmoon6]

Just curious, what are your thoughts on say Randall Cunningham? To me, I think he was one of the most competitive guys in league history and had a hell of an arm, but only reached his full potential as a QB in Minnesota when he stayed in the pocket and only occassionally rolled out.I don't know. I thought if not for the Fog Bowl that Eagle team would have won it all.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Lewis is not going to win games, period. If you make him a running threat only, he becomes even easier to neutralize.

Who said anything about making him a run threat "only"? Why is it always the extreme? I want the Bills to run Spiller off tackle behind Cordy Glenn too. That doesn't mean I want them to do it every single play.


What we're seeing with these "running QBs" league-wide is the logic behind why these one-dimensional idiots were so sparingly used in the first place.

The NFL QB is far and away the most cerebral and intense position in any sport.

It is, which is why it is so hard to find guys to run the traditional dropback multiple-read systems. So college coaches and now NFL ocs are trying to fit the system to their talent.


And, like somebody recently said, the most adaptable, efficient thing in the world is the NFL Defensive Coordinator. You may fool them for half a season or so, but they identify, adjust and shut you down.

You keep treating the option like it's one play. It's not, it's a play concept. If NFL coordinators adjust and shut one part of it down, then you can exploit that adjustment. The entire point of the option is to force the defense to account for your QB as a running threat. Once they do, that's at least one defender who's not covering downfield, plugging a gap, or blitzing. That's an advantage for the offense to exploit even if the QB never runs the ball once.

It's a chess match.


This is exactly why I laughed my ass off at all the morons who were gushing about how Scam Newton and Michael Vick were "Revolutionizing the QB position."

Utterly ridiculous.

I'm not SpikedLemonade, so you can continue that feud somewhere else. Running QBs didn't "revolutionize" the QB position, they aren't doing anything college QBs didn't do decades ago. But they provide a new wrinkle that allows them to be more effective earlier.


You know who's revolutionizing the QB position? The ugly, awkward guy with the giant forehead, dressed in orange. He's the hybrid Offensive Coordinator/QB who studies photographs of the Defense on the sidelines.

Nobody is saying Newton/Griffin/Kepernick/whomever is better than Manning, can we put that to rest please? Nobody is saying pocket passers are bad or outdated. What I'm saying is that they are really ********* hard to find. Some franchises have gone their entire existence without developing an elite pocket passer.

[WagonCircler]

Who said anything about making him a run threat "only"? Why is it always the extreme? I want the Bills to run Spiller off tackle behind Cordy Glenn too. That doesn't mean I want them to do it every single play.



It is, which is why it is so hard to find guys to run the traditional dropback multiple-read systems. So college coaches and now NFL ocs are trying to fit the system to their talent.



You keep treating the option like it's one play. It's not, it's a play concept. If NFL coordinators adjust and shut one part of it down, then you can exploit that adjustment. The entire point of the option is to force the defense to account for your QB as a running threat. Once they do, that's at least one defender who's not covering downfield, plugging a gap, or blitzing. That's an advantage for the offense to exploit even if the QB never runs the ball once.

It's a chess match.



I'm not SpikedLemonade, so you can continue that feud somewhere else. Running QBs didn't "revolutionize" the QB position, they aren't doing anything college QBs didn't do decades ago. But they provide a new wrinkle that allows them to be more effective earlier.



Nobody is saying Newton/Griffin/Kepernick/whomever is better than Manning, can we put that to rest please? Nobody is saying pocket passers are bad or outdated. What I'm saying is that they are really ********* hard to find. Some franchises have gone their entire existence without developing an elite pocket passer.

Pocket passers aren't as hard to find as "athletic QBs" who have a brain in their heads.

And you're wrong, MANY people are clamoring for this ************ running game as the "wave of the future" or the "new breed" of QB. The fact is, it's HORRIBLE playground football.

There's a huge difference between the college game and the NFL, and like I said, it's the coordinators and more importantly, it's the caliber of athlete playing Defense.

The option is a system, sure, but it requires a brainless running back to run it, and we're seeing the result of it. EJ and Thad are exactly the same guy (except that Thad is probably a better athlete). We see two or 3 good passes that are actually standard throws that any NFL QB should be able to make, but those throws look so good because all of their other throws SUCK BALLS.

It's a chess match? Yes, that's exactly why guys like Kapernick have been exposed. Because the real chess players are able to design schemes to stop the show ponies.

Just look at the Super Bowls and show me the ones won by Michael Vick or (fill in low IQ WQB here_____________). It's not a coincidence that there are none.

I still can't get past that God damn fumble by Lewis. How the hell do you spend your whole life playing a position and still carry the ball like it's a loaf of Wonder Bread? That single play was the difference in the game. I'm used to seeing the Bills lose, but I'll never get past watching games lost due to stupidity. And stupidity is a lifelong affliction. Stupid QBs don't win. Their just bridges between other bad QBs.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Pocket passers aren't as hard to find as "athletic QBs" who have a brain in their heads.

I'm not sure why you keep framing this as an intelligence issue. Thad Lewis isn't a stupid man, he's just not great at football.


And you're wrong, MANY people are clamoring for this ************ running game as the "wave of the future" or the "new breed" of QB. The fact is, it's HORRIBLE playground football.

So take it up with them. I've already said the opposite multiple times in this thread.


There's a huge difference between the college game and the NFL, and like I said, it's the coordinators and more importantly, it's the caliber of athlete playing Defense.

Right, college and the NFL are different. The difference is why NFL teams can't run the option as a base offense but college teams can. But you can't ignore what they are doing in college, because that's your talent source. How many traditional, dropback pro style passers are even coming out of the college ranks these days? In the last five years, I can only think of two that came in developed - Ryan and Luck. I suppose you could extend to it to four if you include Tannehill and Dalton, but the former was a converted wideout and the latter ran a shotgun spread.


The option is a system, sure, but it requires a brainless running back to run it, and we're seeing the result of it. EJ and Thad are exactly the same guy (except that Thad is probably a better athlete). We see two or 3 good passes that are actually standard throws that any NFL QB should be able to make, but those throws look so good because all of their other throws SUCK BALLS.

Right, they are not developed passers, so Marrone adjusted the offense to try to make them more effective. I know you think their throws SUCK BALLS (and many do), but I'd like you to envision how bad they'd look with an extra defender to account for or more reads to make. We could be in Gabbert territory.


It's a chess match? Yes, that's exactly why guys like Kapernick have been exposed. Because the real chess players are able to design schemes to stop the show ponies.

Just look at the Super Bowls and show me the ones won by Michael Vick or (fill in low IQ WQB here_____________). It's not a coincidence that there are none.

WQB?


I still can't get past that God damn fumble by Lewis. How the hell do you spend your whole life playing a position and still carry the ball like it's a loaf of Wonder Bread? That single play was the difference in the game. I'm used to seeing the Bills lose, but I'll never get past watching games lost due to stupidity. And stupidity is a lifelong affliction. Stupid QBs don't win. Their just bridges between other bad QBs.

He's not a great QB. He was a UDFA on his fourth practice squad. If he didn't make foolish mistakes, he'd probably have been on a roster at some point.

[justasportsfan]

I still like the conventional way where the qb throws (Peyton/Brady)and the running back runs . Having a mobile qb should just be a plus when trying to get out of trouble (Ben/Elway).

This is why Manuel worries me. He's a mediocre passer AT BEST so far.

[Mr. Pink]

Roger Staubach ran early in his career to Tom Landry's chagrin. It only took one play for Roger to come over to Landry's way of thinking. Marlin McKeever put him on the bench for awhile when he broke his shoulder. After that, Staubach would run around in the backfield to make plays, but was more judicious taking off down field. The same with Tarkenton. I would point out that the Bears in the same era had a running QB, Bobby Douglas with designed runs for him. They were less than effective.

Bottom line is the read option is a novelty offense. It can be used sometimes and the QB can run out of it sometimes, but if you want to run it full time you will fail. Like any new offensive strategy throughout the history of the NFL, defenses will catch up with their own scheme to stop it. They are already caught up to the option just like the Wildcat, the Wishbone (Never was used much or successful in the NFL) or the Veer T (The Wishbones' predecessor) These are college offenses where you don't have the concentrated talent the NFL does.

Wanting your QB to have ten or twelve carries a game may give you a big chubby, but it's going to get him killed. As long as your QB can move in the pocket, roll and escape, that's all you really need.

Even Mike Vick isn't running the ball 10 times per game on average. He's averaging 6.5 carries per game over his career. Russell Wilson so far is also running the ball 6.5 times per game on average thus far.

No QB is going to run the ball 10 times per game on average. It'll never happen.

And the top two teams in the NFC ran the read option as their base offense last year. So where do you come up with the offense will fail as a full time offense? Oddly enough those same 2 teams are gonna be in the playoffs again this year, and likely one of them will play for the right to go to the Superbowl again.

[pmoon6]

Even Mike Vick isn't running the ball 10 times per game on average. He's averaging 6.5 carries per game over his career. Russell Wilson so far is also running the ball 6.5 times per game on average thus far.

No QB is going to run the ball 10 times per game on average. It'll never happen.

And the top two teams in the NFC ran the read option as their base offense last year. So where do you come up with the offense will fail as a full time offense? Oddly enough those same 2 teams are gonna be in the playoffs again this year, and likely one of them will play for the right to go to the Superbowl again.Are you daft, man? It's getting figured out this year. Kaepernick and Wilson are doing it less than last year. Remember when the "Run And Shoot" was the rage? Even though it was successful for a time, it was finally exposed and stopped. I already gave other examples.

I just wish Seattle and SF would run it more. I would love to see Wilson and CP end up like Vick because I can't stand Jim Harbaugh or Pete Carroll. Play four games and out for two. Griffin is already trying to adapt to a more traditional NFL scheme. The Redskins have seen the error in exposing their QB to multiple hits.

At any rate, you can drool over the read option if you like, but it's becoming more and more a sometimey thing. Too bad you don't have the vision to put it into context with other gimmick offenses in NFL history.

[WagonCircler]

I'm not sure why you keep framing this as an intelligence issue. Thad Lewis isn't a stupid man, he's just not great at football.

I'm talking football I.Q. Did you see the way he carried the football on that fumble? Inexcusable. I'd like to come up with an example of similar stupidity in any sport in order to illustrate just how mind-numbingly ridiculous that was, but I just can't think of any. Closest I can come is a Defenseman passing across ice in front of his own goaltender, giving up a breakaway.

That's not a rookie mistake. You get benched in Pop Warner for carrying the ball that way.


Right, college and the NFL are different. The difference is why NFL teams can't run the option as a base offense but college teams can. But you can't ignore what they are doing in college, because that's your talent source. How many traditional, dropback pro style passers are even coming out of the college ranks these days? In the last five years, I can only think of two that came in developed - Ryan and Luck. I suppose you could extend to it to four if you include Tannehill and Dalton, but the former was a converted wideout and the latter ran a shotgun spread..

Yes, I can ignore it, and so should NFL scouts. That sh--t doesn't work in the NFL, so it's of zero relevance in the NFL.



Right, they are not developed passers, so Marrone adjusted the offense to try to make them more effective. I know you think their throws SUCK BALLS (and many do), but I'd like you to envision how bad they'd look with an extra defender to account for or more reads to make. We could be in Gabbert territory.

Again, this is a recipe for disaster. It's a deeply, deeply flawed strategy. Passers are born AND made. You can't make a Quarterback out of a track star or a tap dancer. As this season is proving, your source material has to have certain inborn qualities, at a minimum. Far more important than the ability to dodge tacklers like Barry Sanders are qualities like accuracy, a strong arm and the ability to analyze and adjust quickly to Defenses.



WQB?

Really? You're the typo police now? Look next to Q on your keyboard. Guess what--there's a W there. SO sorry! Good God.



He's not a great QB. He was a UDFA on his fourth practice squad. If he didn't make foolish mistakes, he'd probably have been on a roster at some point.

That's my point. The read option is for QBs who make stupid mistakes. It's a dumbed down system designed to make Quarterbacks out of Halfbacks, and it sucks balls, as do most of the Halfbacks it's trying to repurpose.

[Mr. Pink]

Are you daft, man? It's getting figured out this year. Kaepernick and Wilson are doing it less than last year. Remember when the "Run And Shoot" was the rage? Even though it was successful for a time, it was finally exposed and stopped. I already gave other examples.

I just wish Seattle and SF would run it more. I would love to see Wilson and CP end up like Vick because I can't stand Jim Harbaugh or Pete Carroll. Play four games and out for two. Griffin is already trying to adapt to a more traditional NFL scheme. The Redskins have seen the error in exposing their QB to multiple hits.

At any rate, you can drool over the read option if you like, but it's becoming more and more a sometimey thing. Too bad you don't have the vision to put it into context with other gimmick offenses in NFL history.

Doing it less?

Russell Wilson is running more this year than last year! He ran about 6 times per game last year and this year he's running about 8 times per game. Kaepernick is running 5 times per game this year and 5 times per game last year.

Where is this less?

RGIII is trying to adapt because he's physically unable to do what he did last year since his knee isn't fully healed yet but he's still running over 5 times per game.

Remember, the forward pass was a gimmick at one time too.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I'm talking football I.Q. Did you see the way he carried the football on that fumble? Inexcusable. I'd like to come up with an example of similar stupidity in any sport in order to illustrate just how mind-numbingly ridiculous that was, but I just can't think of any. Closest I can come is a Defenseman passing across ice in front of his own goaltender, giving up a breakaway.

Ok, I agree with that.


Yes, I can ignore it, and so should NFL scouts. That sh--t doesn't work in the NFL, so it's of zero relevance in the NFL.

Define "work." We got a very competitive game out of Thad Lewis over it.


Again, this is a recipe for disaster. It's a deeply, deeply flawed strategy. Passers are born AND made. You can't make a Quarterback out of a track star or a tap dancer. As this season is proving, your source material has to have certain inborn qualities, at a minimum. Far more important than the ability to dodge tacklers like Barry Sanders are qualities like accuracy, a strong arm and the ability to analyze and adjust quickly to Defenses.

Ok, and you can keep searching for and discarding a run of guys who can't do that efficiently, or you can try to adapt your gameplan to the talent on hand.


Really? You're the typo police now? Look next to Q on your keyboard. Guess what--there's a W there. SO sorry! Good God.

Calm the **** down already. I asked because I didn't know what you meant.


That's my point. The read option is for QBs who make stupid mistakes. It's a dumbed down system designed to make Quarterbacks out of Halfbacks, and it sucks balls, as do most of the Halfbacks it's trying to repurpose.

It's a system designed to get production out of younger, more athletic QBs. As I said above, it's simpler to run then it is to defend, so you can roll out a practice squad UDFA and still get some offense out of the guy.

What would you rather they do for this season? Tell Lewis to make 7 step drops and progress through all his reads? The guy wasn't in TC and wasn't even taking reps with starters until after Labor Day. Notably, when we tried that with a guy who is a traditional pocket passer in Tuel, it was a complete disaster.

[WagonCircler]

It's a system designed to get production out of younger, more athletic QBs. As I said above, it's simpler to run then it is to defend, so you can roll out a practice squad UDFA and still get some offense out of the guy.

What would you rather they do for this season? Tell Lewis to make 7 step drops and progress through all his reads? The guy wasn't in TC and wasn't even taking reps with starters until after Labor Day. Notably, when we tried that with a guy who is a traditional pocket passer in Tuel, it was a complete disaster.

I'm not making suggestions, I'm laying blame. This season is fuct. The damage is irreparable. It happened when they made the stupid decision to jump on the "Athletic QB" bandwagon. And they made a separate mistake by keeping a guy, in Tuel, who while he may be a pocket passer by default, is what he is--an undrafted rookie FA, without an NFL arm.

The whole QB situation is a disaster. EJ might get better, but I'm not confident that he can suddenly become an accurate passer after a lifetime of not being one.

The rest of these guys are just differently equipped Dufeks and Koflers.

The Bills remain in QB purgatory. And the team will suck until that changes.

[Mouldsie]

OK, I know I started out in this thread saying RO was a bit of a fad/gimmick but it's not white and black people


Flacco is not a runner, but he's got a ring.

Brady is not a runner, but he's got three rings.

Big Ben is not a runner, but he's got two rings.

Eli Manning is not a runner, but he's got two rings.

Peyton Manning is not a runner, and he's the best quarterback in the game today.

Brett Favre was not a runner, but he's still one of the greatest QB's of all time.

Jim Kelly was not a runner, but he's also one of the best ever..

Dan Marino is the farthest thing from a running QB, but he's still one of the best QB's in NFL history.

Drew Brees is not a running QB either, but he still has a ring.

Kurt Warner was not a running QB.

Troy Aikman was not a running QB.

Joe Montana was not a running QB.

John Elway was not a running QB.

Great NFL QB's have one thing in common. They don't run the ball much.

Define runner?

Also where is Steve Young?

Everyone has to be on one end of the spectrum or the other in this world lately. Stupid.

It's an effective element. Passing efficiency is more important but being mobile is in no way a downside... and the downside is not scheme it is the increased chance of injury due to taking more hits.

Kaep and Wilson are studs, they have **** to throw to. Luck is as mobile as Cam is. Cam is a stud too, again nobody to throw to. Brady has nobody to throw to this year and people want to say he's washed up, no he just doesnt have Welker and Gronk.

Elway, Favre, Steve Young, and Big Ben all have tons of highlights of them using their legs. Brees runs for a 1st down 1-2 times a game.

Give me Teddy Bridgewater because he can haz cake en eet it 2!

[Mouldsie]

Also I think Thad is a pretty solid pocket passer, his accuracy suffered after he got hurt (running on a designed play, a horrible playcall BTW). We were in the game because of his deep balls just as much as we were from catching Cincy off guard with some runs in the 1st quarter. Manuel hasnt been able to hit those.



And if we seriously drafted EJ Manuel for his running ability, idk what the Bills scouts were watching in college because he's an average scrambler.

- - - Updated - - -


Are you daft, man? It's getting figured out this year. Kaepernick and Wilson are doing it less than last year. Remember when the "Run And Shoot" was the rage? Even though it was successful for a time, it was finally exposed and stopped. I already gave other examples.

I just wish Seattle and SF would run it more. I would love to see Wilson and CP end up like Vick because I can't stand Jim Harbaugh or Pete Carroll. Play four games and out for two. Griffin is already trying to adapt to a more traditional NFL scheme. The Redskins have seen the error in exposing their QB to multiple hits.

At any rate, you can drool over the read option if you like, but it's becoming more and more a sometimey thing. Too bad you don't have the vision to put it into context with other gimmick offenses in NFL history.
You'd love to see two young promising players hurt themselves because you dont like their coaches?

[Mouldsie]

I'm talking football I.Q. Did you see the way he carried the football on that fumble? Inexcusable.
I think he wanted to pitch it to Fred but Fred wasn't looking for it and he got caught in no mans land, def should have tucked it earlier and sensed the pressure. He does hold that ball dangerously though

[pmoon6]

Also I think Thad is a pretty solid pocket passer, his accuracy suffered after he got hurt (running on a designed play, a horrible playcall BTW). We were in the game because of his deep balls just as much as we were from catching Cincy off guard with some runs in the 1st quarter. Manuel hasnt been able to hit those.



And if we seriously drafted EJ Manuel for his running ability, idk what the Bills scouts were watching in college because he's an average scrambler.

- - - Updated - - -


You'd love to see two young promising players hurt themselves because you dont like their coaches?Ummm. Steve Young suffered multiple concussions before it became an issue. Since they don't know the long term affects it will be interesting to see what happens when Young gets older. Then again, he is a pretty smart guy and can afford to lose a few brain cells.

I don't care about two QBs who play for two douchebags in a system that is detrimental to their health. They chose to run and take the risk. They will reap what they sew. And when they get hurt they will have no one to blame but themselves and their HC.

However, I get the CP and Wilson love. They are two young guys that youngsters can identify with and admire. Personally, I think they are overhyped along with Griffin. Small track record, but people act like they are as good as Montana or Unitas.

[Mouldsie]

Russel Wilson looked good tonight.

His 1st team WR is Golden Tate BTW.

I cry every time I watch Seattle. That's what we should be. With RW too. And they have Lynch. Wahhh

[pmoon6]

Let's see. Russell Wilson had 8 carries for 29 yards. Sure looks like teams, even the Cardinals, have adjusted to the QB option. What's that 3.6 a carry?

[stuckincincy]

If your DC calls enough man coverage, even the lead-footed qb crowd starts to sniff the read option when their OL is containing the DL. A five foot gap, a quick scoot 'n slide for an easy 5, possibly more.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Let's see. Russell Wilson had 8 carries for 29 yards. Sure looks like teams, even the Cardinals, have adjusted to the QB option. What's that 3.6 a carry?

Still missing the point. You can run the read option and never have a QB run it once. The defense still has to account for the QB's running and that affects them. Watch Wilson's highlights from yesterday. See how many plays Daryl Washington (58) is just standing behind the DL watching Wilson to make sure he doesn't take off running.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000265097/Week-7-Russell-Wilson-highlights

That's a Pro Bowl linebacker standing around in the middle of the field, neither blitzing nor covering anybody downfield. You don't think that's valuable to an offense?

[Mr. Pink]

Let's see. Russell Wilson had 8 carries for 29 yards. Sure looks like teams, even the Cardinals, have adjusted to the QB option. What's that 3.6 a carry?

Yeah, they've really adjusted. He's averaging 5.6 ypc on the season and accounts for a 1/3 of the Hawks rushing yards with 323. He's been figured out!!!!

[Mouldsie]

My point was that he was launching brilliant passes into the hands of **** WR's who had no choice but to catch them because they were right on the money.

[pmoon6]

Yeah, they've really adjusted. He's averaging 5.6 ypc on the season and accounts for a 1/3 of the Hawks rushing yards with 323. He's been figured out!!!!Yeah, that's great until he is unfortunate enough to get crushed like a pretzel.

I have to apologize. I don't mean to criticize a hero of the youngsters on the board. Slobber all you want.

Carry on.

[stuckincincy]

Yeah, that's great until he is unfortunate enough to get crushed like a pretzel.

I have to apologize. I don't mean to criticize a hero of the youngsters on the board. Slobber all you want.

Carry on.

Were I a DC and his jaunts were becoming irksome, I'd gladly instruct my folks to whack him hard and make him think about it. The 15 yards for that unsportsmanlike conduct is actually me watching out for the welfare of my players - they could suffer muscle pulls chasing after him, ya know. :nod:

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Were I a DC and his jaunts were becoming irksome, I'd gladly instruct my folks to whack him hard and make him think about it. The 15 yards for that unsportsmanlike conduct is actually me watching out for the welfare of my players - they could suffer muscle pulls chasing after him, ya know. :nod:

Youcould even offer your players extra money if they succeed in injuring him. That should work.

[stuckincincy]

Youcould even offer your players extra money if they succeed in injuring him. That should work.

I draw the line at preferred parking places.

[Mr. Pink]

Yeah, that's great until he is unfortunate enough to get crushed like a pretzel.

I have to apologize. I don't mean to criticize a hero of the youngsters on the board. Slobber all you want.

Carry on.

:rofl:

You're either an idiot or it's part of your message board shtick because you think it's "cool."

While Russell Wilson is running around and winning games for the 'Hawks and taking them into the playoffs you can have pride in the subpar players on the Buffalo Bills. Oh wait, the NFL just must like Wilson so there is a league directive to make him look good, right? Just like there is a league directive for the Bills to suck, right?

Funny how you can unabashedly hate on players who are actually good yet someone makes a comment that EJ Manuel is a bum and you lambaste whoever says it and pull out the "you never played the game so what do you know" card.

Just because a guy runs around doesn't mean he's going to get hurt any more or any less than a QB that doesn't leave the pocket. The top 3 pocket QBs in the NFL today have all lost 1 full season to injury but lets not let facts get in the way of your biased version of what you think the NFL should be.

[pmoon6]

:rofl:

You're either an idiot or it's part of your message board shtick because you think it's "cool."

While Russell Wilson is running around and winning games for the 'Hawks and taking them into the playoffs you can have pride in the subpar players on the Buffalo Bills. Oh wait, the NFL just must like Wilson so there is a league directive to make him look good, right? Just like there is a league directive for the Bills to suck, right?

Funny how you can unabashedly hate on players who are actually good yet someone makes a comment that EJ Manuel is a bum and you lambaste whoever says it and pull out the "you never played the game so what do you know" card.

Just because a guy runs around doesn't mean he's going to get hurt any more or any less than a QB that doesn't leave the pocket. The top 3 pocket QBs in the NFL today have all lost 1 full season to injury but lets not let facts get in the way of your biased version of what you think the NFL should be.Wow, you have me pegged. I must be an idiot to waste time talking to you and your ilk.

[Mr. Pink]

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2013/02/quarterback_injuries_are_mobile_qbs_like_colin_kaepernick_more_injury_prone.html

Interesting read with actual data for some of you people who think that running QBs get hurt more or are purposely putting themselves at more risk than pocket passers.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I thought Lewis looked horrible this game trying to run a traditional offense. So many checkdowns, horrible sideways passes, and generally having to make heroic throws on 3rd down to even sustain a drive. OTOH, when we brought the read in during the 3rd quarter, suddenly we move the ball, get a penalty on a rusher trying to take the QBs head off (isn't that what everyone keeps saying you should do to stop rushing QBs?) and he gets us the field goal that keeps us in this game.

Lewis cannot and will not succeed in a dropback offense, at least not this year. So what do we do now?

[IlluminatusUIUC]

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9911049/bill-barnwell-read-option-scheme


So, where does the read-option stand? Somewhere between where it was and where its detractors think it will end up. It's very obviously not dead. It's also not the mind-blowing force of nature that it was for San Francisco in the playoffs last year, nor could it ever really be that consistently good. It's an ever-evolving part of about half the offenses around the league, some much more than others, but just like an NFL team would never run play-action or line up in the shotgun on every single snap, it's also unlikely to use the zone-read as a base offensive concept. It's not a gimmick and it's not an offensive panacea.

[chris66]

read option works in college because at best you have that qb for 2-3 years then he is gone anyway. in the nfl your hoping for a 10 year starter.