Bills VS Steelers GDT !!

[Skooby]

Go Bills !!

[JCBills]

12:05 AM? You would.

[JCBills]

That being said, with EJ coming back and the strength of Buffalo's run game, this game can be won. If they win the turnover battle, they win this game.

Go Bills!

[Bunion]

Irony is going to Pittsburgh and beating the Steelers with tough D and a physical running game. The Law Firm of Hughes, Williams, Williams & Dareus are going to get to Big Ben today, just make him put the ball on the ground when they do.

[kishoph]

The Steelers defense is old and slow, but with Dick LeBeau running things, they still can be a tough defense. The Bills have been using screen passes more, I'd like to see Spiller get some and really take advantage of Pittsburgh's lack of speed on defense. With Manuel, I want to see him continue to play smart and not be fooled by LeBeau's defense.
The Bills opponents have a record of 49 wins and 28 losses (that's a tough schedule) and the Steelers are only the second team the Bills have played that has a losing record (Ravens). I'd like to see the Bills blow the Steelers out, but I think they still shoot their selves in the foot too often to blow anyone out right now, still they will win by 2 scores.


GO BILLS

[Bunion]

Weird as it sounds, I think Hackett can take advantage of Polamalu. Pittsburgh's scheme gives him a ton of leeway, he hasn't been playing that well, and will probably be anxious to make a play as he's the heart of the defense. Show him a pattern of routes that he's seen before and he'll probably sell out to make something happen, then nail him with a wrinkle.

I've been critical of Hackett before and without much good thinking or evidence. From here on it's a clean slate. Mid-season is about when the NFL caught up to Chan's playbook and his adjustments to Fitz's weaknesses.

[SquishDaFish]

:gobills:

[coastal]

Mitchmurraydowntown karma!

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

yea. this game should be interesting as my wife is a steelers fan. ugh

[imbondz]

yea. this game should be interesting as my wife is a steelers fan. ugh

I agree. ugh.

[imbondz]

I'm assuming EJ is going to be rusty, so I am not expecting greatness, but hopefully it will be a tough, close game, and we squeak it out in the end, with Stevie making a redemption last second 57 YD miracle catch for a TD.

[TacklingDummy]

The push for the Playoffs starts today.

[stuckincincy]

yea. this game should be interesting as my wife is a steelers fan. ugh

Give her hair a "Terrible Tousle." :nervous:

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

Give her hair a "Terrible Tousle." :nervous:

lol. i won't do anything like that. luckily, she isn't the typical annoying idiot steeler fan that i despised when i lived there for 6 years.

[stuckincincy]

lol. i won't do anything like that. luckily, she isn't the typical annoying idiot steeler fan that i despised when i lived there for 6 years.

I lived there for 11 years. I know the pain...Oy Yoi.

I miss Myron Cope - he was unique. Also a dead-eye analyst.

[Mr. Pink]

Rusty rookie QB vs Dick Lebeau?

Porous offensive line with a QB who holds the ball too long vs Mario Williams?

Horrible field conditions with some weather mixed in?

Gonna be a low scoring ugly game that could go either way.

[BertSquirtgum]

Rusty rookie QB vs Dick Lebeau?

Porous offensive line with a QB who holds the ball too long vs Mario Williams?

Horrible field conditions with some weather mixed in?

Gonna be a low scoring ugly game that could go either way.

You don't know.

[ServoBillieves]

Lived in Pittsburgh almost my whole life... wife is a Steelers fan, the normal one that only cares when theyre winning and throws hockey in your face if the Steelers aren't winning.

**** the Steelers, go Bills.

[TacklingDummy]

Rusty rookie QB vs Dick Lebeau?

Porous offensive line with a QB who holds the ball too long vs Mario Williams?

Horrible field conditions with some weather mixed in?

Gonna be a low scoring ugly game that could go either way.Pittsburgh is coming off being embarrassed last week. Look for them to play well.

[Fixxxer]

GO BILLS!!!

[TacklingDummy]

Touchback.

[tomz]

Beginning of the who gives a damn but hope they grow part of the season.

[Skooby]

Go Bills!!

[TacklingDummy]

Dareus single block out of play.

[BertSquirtgum]

Gilmore is really bad.

[TacklingDummy]

Going to be boring game, no fire in either team so far.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

LOL Big Ben running the read option

[ServoBillieves]

Stephon strikes again!

[Novacane]

Glimore again..

[BertSquirtgum]

My god why is Gilmore even starting. He sucks so ****ing bad. I want Mckelvin on their best receiver. At least it looks like he's trying this year.

[ServoBillieves]

Gilmore is just pathetic...

- - - Updated - - -

KIKO

[TacklingDummy]

8 plays so far, Dareus single block out of the play on 7 of them, on bench for the INT.

[Mr. Pink]

Jairus Byrd is gonna be awesome this week in the eyes of fans.

[BertSquirtgum]

Byrd is still a douche bag.

[Buffalo Thriller]

I'll take it.

[Novacane]

Gonna take a lot more than that Jarius! I'll take it though lol

- - - Updated - - -

If the blockers would of gotten out of his way he could of scored

[Crisis]

stephon 1st drive - big pass given up, holding penalty

people going to tell me to not worry about him again?

[ServoBillieves]

Jairus... woopdiedo...

[TacklingDummy]

Field goal.

- - - Updated - - -

Wow weak call.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

The coaches are wearing veteran's day sweatshirts and the teams are using camo towels? Is there nothing they won't exploit?

[Novacane]

Lucky. The route was run short of the first. Dumb ass TJ

[tomz]

Poor route by graham on the pi play

[Mr. Pink]

He slid!!!!

[IlluminatusUIUC]

He slid!!!!

And he got the first beforehand!

[TacklingDummy]

Handoff handoff, dink, doink, handoff, scramble, handoff, handoff, terrible pass, field goal.

[Novacane]

Stupid stupid stupid

[Mr. Pink]

Still better than last week's result in a similar situation.

But ya need to put the ball in a place where Stevie can try to make a play.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Just like he said - we have no goalline backs and no red zone wideouts. This is the result when you build your whole team around midget speedsters, you need to be very creative in the red zone and we are not.

[Novacane]

This team sucks in the redzone

[ServoBillieves]

So... when do we put Thad in?

- - - Updated - - -

Why wasn't Dareus in? I blame him for the 3 points.

[TacklingDummy]

This team sucks in the redzone
Only team worse is the Jags.

[PcA125]

That was a terrible throw, but I think he will get better as the game goes on

[Novacane]

Why don't they use Chandler in the RZ

[TacklingDummy]

Trade for Big Ben?
I'd consider it.

[TacklingDummy]

3 plays, Dareus not involved in any of them.

He's awesome, Pro Bowler I tell ya.

[ServoBillieves]

Gilmore makes a play... Hmm.

[Mr. Pink]

Let the ugly commence!

[Novacane]

Get Fred in there

[BertSquirtgum]

Why is it so hard for CJ to run north to south? Is he really that dumb?

[Novacane]

FUGLY

[Mr. Pink]

Nice defensive play by Stevie there.

[TacklingDummy]

Handoff, ugly pass, handoff, punt, boring.

[coastal]

EJ sucks

[Novacane]

They seem to trust Tuel more to throw than their #1 draft pick

[Mr. Pink]

OK.

Someone explain to me why when we get to backup QBs the playbook is more open than when we have the starter in?

We're back to this bland boring crap again.

[ServoBillieves]

Thad... Thaaaaaaaaad...

[tomz]

Man even moorman playing into the ugly. We had a great chance to pin them way deep there.

[TacklingDummy]

So... when do we put Thad in?.

3 out of 4 of EJs passes so far have been west off target.

Maybe by halftime? Depending on the score.

[kingJofNYC]

OK.

Someone explain to me why when we get to backup QBs the playbook is more open than when we have the starter in?

We're back to this bland boring crap again.

Got to hide EJ!

Dude missing easy throws, missing reads, ****ty deep ball. It ain't the O, it's the bland QB.

[Novacane]

OK.

Someone explain to me why when we get to backup QBs the playbook is more open than when we have the starter in?

We're back to this bland boring crap again.


Excellent question. They seem to be babying EJ.

[tomz]

OK.

Someone explain to me why when we get to backup QBs the playbook is more open than when we have the starter in?

We're back to this bland boring crap again.

Hackett has handled EJ with kid gloves and super conservatism from day one. Don't want to bruise his fragile psyche.

[Typ0]

EJ will get better as the game goes on...we have seen it in ever game he's played. He's rusty. And the game plan is what it is due to the team we are playing not who the QB is.

[TacklingDummy]

Woo Dareus double teamed for the 1st time in 10 plays, now on bench for third down.

Punt.

[Novacane]

Defense is going to have to win this one

[coastal]

Hackett has handled EJ with kid gloves and super conservatism from day one. Don't want to bruise his fragile psyche.
Is he a football player or squishdafish?

[tomz]

Bad as we look the steelers look worse and they don't have the rusty qback excuse.

[Mr. Pink]

EJ will get better as the game goes on...we have seen it in ever game he's played. He's rusty. And the game plan is what it is due to the team we are playing not who the QB is.

You're helping their defense.

They can put 8 people in the box every play with this gameplan so far.

[Novacane]

Woo Hoo 3 yard pass. WTF is with the game plan. EJ comes in and they go in a shell

[TacklingDummy]

Handoff, dink, doink thrown behind Johnson, punt.

[coastal]

The suck is strong in this one.

[Mr. Pink]

They had 9 in the box on that play til Polamulu dropped back.

[BertSquirtgum]

Put Thad in.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I know it's windy but isn't that the exact reason we drafted Manuel? His big cannon?

[Buffalo Thriller]

This offense baffles me.

[ServoBillieves]

This game is painful to watch...

[TacklingDummy]

Got to hide EJ!

Dude missing easy throws, missing reads, ****ty deep ball. It ain't the O, it's the bland QB.
4 of his 5 passes so far have been ugly.

[Novacane]

Pathetic to have 3 points off the field pos we've had

[JCBills]

3 plays, Dareus not involved in any of them.

He's awesome, Pro Bowler I tell ya.

You do know there are 10 other players, right?

He already blew up one play. Take off the hate goggles.

[tomz]

Wow this is like listening to nails scratching on a blackboard

[JCBills]

Also, no one has ever been rusty, ever. Right?

[TacklingDummy]

You do know there are 10 other players, right?

He already blew up one play. Take off the hate goggles.
He hasn't blown up anything.
Take the homer goggles off.

[Novacane]

I'm stating to think they don't trust EJ. They let Tuel do more

[Novacane]

QB play is killing our team

[tomz]

Wasn't this ej's MO at FSU last year? Played very conservatively?

[stuckincincy]

Dull game so far.

[TacklingDummy]

I'm stating to think they don't trust EJ. They let Tuel do more
He can't make the easy throws, what's to trust?

[JCBills]

He hasn't blown up anything.
Take the homer goggles off.

Try watching the game. With your eyes.

[Bunion]

I'm stating to think they don't trust EJ. They let Tuel do more

'Let'? Tuel threw bombs, Thad threw bombs. Hackett's dialing them up for practice squad QBs...EJ's just not throwing them. It's like he's got to throw every pass in 2 seconds.

[Novacane]

Freakng had him stopped. Damn it

[Mr. Pink]

Dareus with a tackle 25 yards down field!

[Novacane]

I have a bad feeling about this game

[TacklingDummy]

QB play is killing our team
We be a playoff team with good QB play.

Dareus makes a tackle 25 yards down field, lol.

[Novacane]

Now the defense can't stop the run. **** this team

[coastal]

Fools Gold got... well... fooled?

[BertSquirtgum]

Dareus ain't stuffing **** today.

- - - Updated - - -


Fools Gold got... well... fooled?

Get a life you clown.

[TacklingDummy]

Need a turnover.

[TacklingDummy]

Dareus ain't stuffing **** today.
.

Find a pile and you will usually see Dareus 3 yards near it.

Williams with the sack, Dareus single block, gets a yard off the line.

[Bunion]

Unbelievable.

So the D makes plays then the Offense puts the D back on the field so they can make more plays?

[Novacane]

KO run run pass punt on the way

[Mr. Pink]

Can we at least try to throw the ball more than 5 yards down field on this series?

[TacklingDummy]

KO run run pass punt on the way
With EJs accuracy, don't be surprised we see a pick 6 this game.

[Fixxxer]

With EJs accuracy, don't be surprised we see a pick 6 this game.

If you say so Nancy.

Kyle is awesome.

[coastal]

There's nothin complicated about the Steelers game plan..

hat on hat.... right at Fool's Gold.

who's the better man?

Lolz.

[Novacane]

With EJs accuracy, don't be surprised we see a pick 6 this game.

He's been to wild to even hit the defense

[kishoph]

Dareus with a tackle 25 yards down field!

And great hustle for that big of a man to chase down a guy from behind 25 yards down field. You can't even hate right.

[Mr. Pink]

And great hustle for that big of a man to chase down a guy from behind 25 yards down field. You can't even hate right.

Dareus went from a bum to completely overrated without any change in his actual performance on the field in one year.

I don't get it.

[kishoph]

This has to be the worst GDT ever, I know people have the right to vent, but what a bunch of whiny ass *****es. Get in the kitchen where yous belong.

[TacklingDummy]

Handoff, how original.

[Bunion]

Run

[Novacane]

EJ finally makes a throw. Bout effing time

[TacklingDummy]

Look mom, I can throw the ball over 5 yards.

[Mike]

OK.

Someone explain to me why when we get to backup QBs the playbook is more open than when we have the starter in?

We're back to this bland boring crap again.

Because they don't want you to see how poor EJ really is. Again, why does EJ get so much consideration and Tuel none?

[cookie G]

Dareus ain't stuffing **** today.

- - - Updated - - -



Get a life you clown.

well...coastal's right...they are running right at Mario..that's what they did the entire series.

[coastal]

Dareus was open.

[TacklingDummy]

This has to be the worst GDT ever, I know people have the right to vent, but what a bunch of whiny ass *****es. Get in the kitchen where yous belong.
First time in a GDT?

[Novacane]

First time in a GDT?



We go through this every week.

[TacklingDummy]

Bills get another PI break, pass wasn't going to be caught.

[Novacane]

Jackass that would of been a first down

[tomz]

well...coastal's right...they are running right at Mario..that's what they did the entire series.
Actually running right at Kyle Williams just like all year.

[ParanoidAndroid]

Gragg had some serious room.

[Novacane]

EJ is terrible today.

[tomz]

Man they are not catching the ball very well.

[Novacane]

We don't win this game without a ST or Defensive TD.

[ServoBillieves]

3/9, 32 yards. Barn burner!

[TacklingDummy]

EJ is terrible today.
Rust, that will be the main excuse.

[BertSquirtgum]

This has to be the worst GDT ever, I know people have the right to vent, but what a bunch of whiny ass *****es. Get in the kitchen where yous belong.

So, you're enjoying this pathetic display of offense so far?

[justasportsfan]

Ej is throwing like Tuel. If he continues to play like this , I'd rather have these in there

[TacklingDummy]

Dareus on bench again? I don't see him this drive.

[Novacane]

OMG.

[Jeff1220]

Block in the back?

[Novacane]

Kiko let his man go

[ServoBillieves]

lmao that was hilariously bad...

[TacklingDummy]

Ej is throwing like Tuel. If he continues to play like this , I'd rather have these in there
The bills need to think QB if they are picking early.

[Novacane]

Look at the TOS. Why is that only a problem when EJ plays

[cookie G]

Actually running right at Kyle Williams just like all year.

He's playing LDE..they've been running the opposite way..at least on the last series.

[Novacane]

Mario gave up the edge

[TacklingDummy]

Well the Bills need this game if they want to think Playoffs. If they lose they should be thinking Draft.

[TacklingDummy]

4 down territory.

[Buffalo Thriller]

This game sucks balls.

[TacklingDummy]

This game sucks balls.

Worst game of the year.

[Novacane]

16696
Well the Bills need this game if they want to think Playoffs. If they lose they should be thinking Draft.

[Mr. Pink]

The bills need to think QB if they are picking early.

If they end up with a top 10 pick I don't see how they can go anywhere else.

[TacklingDummy]

63 yards of offense, sweet.

[Novacane]

A TD here and the route is on IMO. If seen this type of game to many times

[TacklingDummy]

Someone started a thread this week asking "What-makes-a-great-fan"?

Answer: watching this shLt.

[Crisis]

gilmore gets burned by COTCHERY.

nothing to worry about with him.

[BertSquirtgum]

What a worthless pos draft pick Gilmore was. Hated it then. Hate it just as much today.

[Buffalo Thriller]

Why did we draft him again?

[TacklingDummy]

63 yards of offense, sweet.
2 minutes left, probably be able to get some prevent defense yardage here.

[imbondz]

yup!

[ServoBillieves]

Gilmore and Manuel are looking like great picks in this game.

[Novacane]

If they end up with a top 10 pick I don't see how they can go anywhere else.



I'm getting really close to being on board for that. Losing faith in EJ very fast.

[Mr. Pink]

Can Thad play the second half?

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Big Ben: beautiful touch pass on the fade.
EJ: Throws fade into the seats.

I'm really concerned about his accuracy.

[Novacane]

Can Thad play the second half?



If they want to win he will. I say keep EJ in there and let him prove they need to go back to the drawing board next year

[Mr. Pink]

Should have made them re-kick.

Goodwin returning might have been the best shot at a TD.

[TacklingDummy]

Lol another handoff

[Novacane]

Lol another handoff



Same ****ing play every first down

[TacklingDummy]

THROw THE BALL

[imbondz]

there's that 'rust' I knew I was going to be there

[Novacane]

At least try a long one. Just throw it up there wtd

[imbondz]

wow

[TacklingDummy]

EJ almost got Jackson killed 2 times in a row.

[BertSquirtgum]

Marrone and Hackett are unfunny jokes.

[Buffalo Thriller]

Captain Checkdown. 3.0

[Turf]

Manual looks aweful. Tuel or Lewis would be better. He has zero accuracy.

[Novacane]

I am so ****ing sick of EJ Edwards

[ServoBillieves]

I'm done with EJ... Just no brain in that head.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Captain Checkdown. 3.0

Yup. Nearly got Fred sent to IR with that throw.

[The Natrix]

Definitely very Trent-like in the first half of this game.

[ParanoidAndroid]

Check down, check down, check down.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

wow. just wow.

[imbondz]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[TacklingDummy]

Rust.

Rust doesn't mean you can't make the easy 3 yard dump off right in front of you.

Receivers catch the ball with their hands, not their feet.

[coastal]

Defensively... Mario was game planned.. successfully.

offensively... EJ is not an improvement over Thad.

[Novacane]

This is more than rust. We've been seeing the same **** all year. We have another captain checkdown QB

[TacklingDummy]

This is more than rust. We've been seeing the same **** all year. We have another captain checkdown QB
What do you get when you combine the DNA of Rob Johnson, JP Losman, and Trent Edwards?

[Oaf]

Do you guys really think when the offense transforms from a pro-attack to a popgun it's the coaches who are "babying" EJ vs not babying Thad or JT? Different QBs, different look of the offense.

[BertSquirtgum]

Do you guys really think when the offense transforms from a pro-attack to a popgun it's the coaches who are "babying" EJ vs not babying Thad or JT? Different QBs, different look of the offense.

So, you're saying the coaches have more faith in jeff tuel than they do ej manuel?

- - - Updated - - -

Why is ej starting then?

[TacklingDummy]

1st offensive play of 2nd half?

[Fixxxer]

EJ needs to grow a pair and start hitting his WRs.

[Mr. Pink]

1st offensive play of 2nd half?

hand off!

[IlluminatusUIUC]

1st offensive play of 2nd half?

CJ Spiller runs outside and gets chased out for a 2 yard gain

[Novacane]

Thanks Steelers. Now we won't have to punt inside our 20

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

nope, another dump off of course

[Mr. Pink]

Wow, they threw on first down?!?

Miracles do happen.

[Novacane]

Once again EJ throws to the shortest route. He's maddening

[IlluminatusUIUC]

nope, another dump off of course

well I had a 50% chance

[Novacane]

Holy crap. There is such thing as miracles

[TacklingDummy]

Fred is the man.

- - - Updated - - -

Lucky wasn't a pick 6 there.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

great pass ej

[Crisis]

noodle arm

[Mr. Pink]

Close to 6 the other way.

[TacklingDummy]

The EJ sucks bandwagon is filling up.

[Novacane]

How can he not get rid of that ball. He has to be benched

[ServoBillieves]

Looks completely lost on the field.

[coastal]

Ouch

[Novacane]

Moorman having a bad game

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Why do you bother putting Spiller in there for one play? All it does is allow the defense to substitute twice.

[Mr. Pink]

The EJ sucks bandwagon is filling up.

People are starting to come around to the Thad Lewis is better than EJ bandwagon too.

[imbondz]

How can he not get rid of that ball. He has to be benched

but he didn't see the guy coming at him right in front of him

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

why does gilmore look so freaking bad the last couple of weeks? i loved him last year

[Novacane]

Who's the boss on this team damn it ****ing Marone. You have one player ****ing this game up and you won't do a thing about it

[tomz]

He looks like a rookie in preseason mode but playing a regular season game. At some level, that is what he is. But he has no sense of the speed etc

[TacklingDummy]

The Steelers score another TD and this game is over.

[Mr. Pink]

The Steelers score another TD and this game is over.

This game is already over.

Barring a ST or Def TD this team ain't finding the endzone.

[ServoBillieves]

Ryan Fitzpatrick is 5/5 53 yards and a TD...

[IlluminatusUIUC]

The Steelers score another TD and this game is over.

I don't know that the Bills have a TD in them today.

[Novacane]

The Steelers score another TD and this game is over.



You have more faith than me. It's over already unless the Steelers implode

- - - Updated - - -

It must be so depressing to play defense when you know you have to shut the other team out

[tomz]

Say what you want about the offense but the defense is poor today. 2 drives of 10 or so plays before that time of possession was even.

[TacklingDummy]

Dareus sighting for first time today.

[Novacane]

Ryan Fitzpatrick is 5/5 53 yards and a TD...



Who cares.

[Mr. Pink]

Say what you want about the offense but the defense is poor today. 2 drives of 10 or so plays before that time of possession was even.

Poor?

They've allowed 10 points, have a turnover and 3 sacks.

[TacklingDummy]

Woohoo Dareus with 2 plays in a row.

[imbondz]

nice play Dareus

[stuckincincy]

Eh. JAX needs a win. BAL needs a win. STL needs a win. PIT needs a win.

Parity.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Ryan Fitzpatrick is 5/5 53 yards and a TD...

They are down by two TDs at home to Jax. They are obviously having a worse day then us.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

it doesn't seem lately like we can ever recover these after we force the fumble

[TacklingDummy]

Here comes a pick 6

[Novacane]

Can't get mad they didn't get the fumble. Would of just punted anyway.

[imbondz]

your choices are

he fumbles, we recover
he fumbles and recovers the ball, 4th down.
he doesn't fumble, throws for a 1st down.

so the 2nd best option happened. nice play Dareus

[Mr. Pink]

Are Pittsburgh defenders made of glass when trying to tackle Stevie?

[Novacane]

Nice pass. Now go back into the check down mode

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Longest throw of the day there

[tomz]

Wow downfield pass. Maybe they told him that he is no longer allowed to chech down no matter what.

[TacklingDummy]

so the 2nd best option happened. nice play Dareus. He had 2 nice plays in a row, the only other time he was visible was when he made the tackle 25 yards downfield.

[mrbojanglezs]

Is it bad that I miss Gailey's playcalling??? WHERE THE HELL ARE THE SCREENS

[tomz]

Poor?

They've allowed 10 points, have a turnover and 3 sacks.
Granted but they have allowed loooong drives. Okay maybe poor was too strong a word.

[TacklingDummy]

Another crap pass.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

why not run the ***** ball???

[Mr. Pink]

Should have been an easy 1st down.

HORRIBLE THROW.

[ServoBillieves]

EJ Manuel is awful.

[Novacane]

Should of been a first down. Another bad throw

[tomz]

Moorman really sucks today.

[Novacane]

We've got to get a punter next year too.

[TacklingDummy]

Haters.

IT hit him in the hands, he should have caught it.

[tomz]

We tried this year.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

Powell, is that you?

[TacklingDummy]

Moorman really sucks today.
He's tired.

[BertSquirtgum]

This offense is pathetic