Ej sucks!

[justasportsfan]

I'd rather have Thad and then Tuel in there. Ej is just as inaccurate as Tuel but at least Tuel was moving the chains. Thads the best qb we have.

Ej just doesn't have confidence to throw the ball. Commentators said what Pitts players saw from Ej and its exactly what I've been saying, Ej waits for receivers to get open before he throws.Just like Trent. No balls.

[Novacane]

Losing hope fast. I'm not giving up on him yet but I don't like the signs.

[TacklingDummy]

Rust.

The Colts didn't give up on Peyton Manning his first year.

[Mr. Pink]

Worst QB on the roster since Bruce Mathison.

[Novacane]

I'm not ready to give up on him yet. If nothings changed by the end of the season I will be

[justasportsfan]

Not giving up on him either. But we have a game to win right now and if he's not ready, sit his ass and let him have another week of practice to grow a pair

[TacklingDummy]

What do you get when you combine the DNA of Rob Johnson, JP Losman, and Trent Edwards?

[Novacane]

Worst QB on the roster since Bruce Mathison.



Let's not get carried away lol. He's looked bad but we have a pile of QB's that have been bad

[WagonCircler]

Rust.

The Colts didn't give up on Peyton Manning his first year.

Rust is one thing. This level of inaccuracy is a fundamental, fatal flaw in his game.

[Pinkerton Security]

He is sucking right now, Thad would be doing better. However, that doesnt mean Thad WILL be a better QB than EJ for the future.

[justasportsfan]

He's looking like the worst of them all

[Novacane]

Not giving up on him either. But we have a game to win right now and if he's not ready, sit his ass and let him have another week of practice to grow a pair



Benching him may send a message. If it hurts his confidence he's not the QB of the future anyway

[TacklingDummy]

He is sucking right now, Thad would be doing better. However, that doesnt mean Thad WILL be a better QB than EJ for the future.
The way EJ is playing he won't have a future for long.

[BillsImpossible]

One half of football does not make a quarterback. All that matters is how he finishes this game.

[justasportsfan]

He is sucking right now, Thad would be doing better. However, that doesnt mean Thad WILL be a better QB than EJ for the future.

I agree but if this game or season is meant for his development and not winning then I'd like to know so I won't waste my time on this team this season

[justasportsfan]

One half of football does not make a quarterback. All that matters is how he finishes this game.
Sure. With Thad wed be ahead. I'm surecevenvwith Tuel wed have more than 50 yards

[Novacane]

Someone needs to get in his face. Stop being a pussy or sit on the bench

[justasportsfan]

Benching him may send a message. If it hurts his confidence he's not the QB of the future anyway

Message is "grow a pair"

[Mr. Pink]

Let's not get carried away lol. He's looked bad but we have a pile of QB's that have been bad

I don't think that is getting carried away to be honest.

Although you're right, in 1987 the replacement players took over and I'm sure EJ is better than one of those guys.

[WagonCircler]

The way EJ is playing he won't have a future for long.

he has the shelf life of a latte.

[justasportsfan]

Almost intercepted .Our longest play so far is via a personal penalty by steelers. Cripes

[Jeff1220]

I don't think his having a pair or not is the issue. He just can't throw the ball with any accuracy. Terrible.

[justasportsfan]

Ej is playing not to lose but even Trent didn't look this bad. The season is done because the coaches decided to play Ej. I'll take Tuel right now.

[Downinfloflo]

Rust.

The Colts didn't give up on Peyton Manning his first year.

Ermmm.....Payton threw 26 touchdowns his rookie year...He never played afraid!!

[kingJofNYC]

Was livid when they took him in the first.

Drafting in to the top 10 once again, top 5 a possibility.

[Downinfloflo]

Was livid when they took him in the first.

Drafting in to the top 10 once again, top 5 a possibility.

That's a good thing...Much better QB class this year.

[TacklingDummy]

Where's the homers?

[BertSquirtgum]

EJ Manuel sucks

[Novacane]

Ermmm.....Payton threw 26 touchdowns his rookie year...He never played afraid!!


Decent chance EJ doesn't throw 26 in his career

[Novacane]

Where's the homers?



I don't think we were homers. Just hopeful that maybe this time they got it right. Pretty much lost that hope at this point. Can't deny what I'm seeing.

[colin]

Ya, he blows. Need a new qb

[kingJofNYC]

That's a good thing...Much better QB class this year.

It's only a good thing if they actually go out and draft a competent QB. Unfortunately arrogance and pride get in the way often.

What really hurts is that EJ missed so many games in preseason/season that he really hasn't been exposed as much as he should, so they'll fall back on the injury defense when they inevitably bypass QB prospects.

[Typ0]

I agree with so much that has been said in this thread. And I also agree with letting a player play and work through things...because what you ultimately want to know is IF the player can work through adversity and where he lands. I think people miss that a lot.

However, this game was do or die for us. That should have been inserted after the second series in the second half. Call it a we need a spark move I don't give a **** we needed a spark and we needed to win that football game.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Who gives a ****.

[JCBills]

Everyone knows that no player has ever improved, ever, right?

[SpikedLemonade]

Was livid when they took him in the first.

Drafting in to the top 10 once again, top 5 a possibility.

No No that would be a tank.

The Homers need to masturbate over meaningless wins over the Jags, Bucs and Dophins so we draft 13th overall.

[kishoph]

Where's the homers?

You're talking about a rookie QB who had to split reps the 1st half of training camp, was injured the 2nd half of training, then played in 4 1/2 games and was injured and after a month off comes out after 5 days practice and has a bad day in a heavy wind, without his #2 receiver and no running game.
Today and against the Jets were his worst showings, where he looked confused, that can very well be a case of Hackett being over matched by Ryan and LeBeau and not having EJ ready for what the defense was doing. Compare EJ's first 4 games to Russel Wilson's and Andrew Lucks stats last season and the are very much the same, other than the yards Luck threw for.
There's a little bit more to football than a stat line or what you see on your TV screen, but I wouldn't expect someone that is so cynical to understand that.

[JoeMama]

I'm done with EJ. You can throw him in the garbage heap with all the others.

Even RJ on his worst day was never this bad.

The guy flat out can't pass. First round QB please.

[Mr. Pink]

You're talking about a rookie QB who had to split reps the 1st half of training camp, was injured the 2nd half of training, then played in 4 1/2 games and was injured and after a month off comes out after 5 days practice and has a bad day in a heavy wind, without his #2 receiver and no running game.
Today and against the Jets were his worst showings, where he looked confused, that can very well be a case of Hackett being over matched by Ryan and LeBeau and not having EJ ready for what the defense was doing. Compare EJ's first 4 games to Russel Wilson's and Andrew Lucks stats last season and the are very much the same, other than the yards Luck threw for.
There's a little bit more to football than a stat line or what you see on your TV screen, but I wouldn't expect someone that is so cynical to understand that.

Except he plays exactly the same Akili Smith did.

Using your logic the Bengals gave up on him too quickly.

A guy has it or he doesn't. A guy can make the right reads or can't. A guy can throw the ball more than 10 yards down the field with any accuracy or he can't. A guy can put touch on his passes or he can't.

Unfortunately all of those in regards to Manuel are...he can't.

Hell Manuel couldn't see a guy barreling straight at him today and took a huge shot.

[Novacane]

I'm not done with him yet. He's got 6 games to show improvement. I know he's a rookie. All I'm asking for is improvement. If he's still captain check down on week 16 they need to seriously consider drafting another QB.

[justasportsfan]

You're talking about a rookie QB who had to split reps the 1st half of training camp, was injured the 2nd half of training, then played in 4 1/2 games and was injured and after a month off comes out after 5 days practice and has a bad day in a heavy wind, without his #2 receiver and no running game.
Today and against the Jets were his worst showings, where he looked confused, that can very well be a case of Hackett being over matched by Ryan and LeBeau and not having EJ ready for what the defense was doing. Compare EJ's first 4 games to Russel Wilson's and Andrew Lucks stats last season and the are very much the same, other than the yards Luck threw for.
There's a little bit more to football than a stat line or what you see on your TV screen, but I wouldn't expect someone that is so cynical to understand that.Your excuses dont matter when you compare Ejs circumstances to both Tuel and Thad.

Ej has always played not to lose. Thad and Tuel although not physically gifted played to win.

Ej is a bad version of Trent. Trent was at least aCcurate throwing 5 yards

[Turf]

EJ's confirming my biggest concern, his accuracy. Lewis looked 5 times better. It seemed like the coaches were afraid to let him throw with their conservative play calling, yet the subs were throwing the ball all over the field. I'm not sure accuracy can be taught. Geno Smith makes some really dumb throws, but he can drop a ball in a receivers hands 30 yards downfield. EJ can't hit a 5-10 yard pass. Very concerned we wasted another 1st rounder.

[TacklingDummy]

EJ may be a rookie but he's played QB before.
Can't complete a simple dump off with some accuracy? See ya, time to move on.

[paladin warrior]

Gave him a time ..He will be fine next year. I am not gave up on him. He need a lots of practice after the season over.

[SpikedLemonade]

I hope EJ stays healthy to play the last 6 games of this season.

This season is over for us so we need to use it wisely to see how EJ develops.

If he is so bad that we lose all our remaining games, we will be 3-13 and draft 3rd or 4th overall. In that position we can draft the 2nd QB off the board if we wish.

I suspect we will win meaningless games against the Jags, Bucs and Dolphins/Falcons to go 6-10 to draft 12th to 14th overall. That will mean EJ played not bad and there will be no QB to draft in that draft position that is obviously better than EJ.

Be patient. This will play out.

Then again this may be the worst case scenario and we are being Dalton'ed by EJ.

[GvilleBills]

What's broken with EJ cannot be fixed. No anticipation, lack of accuracy and balls.

I've begun to see that you're either a quarterback born, or not.

[GvilleBills]

Seriously... who has come in the league flawed, and REALLY improved? Who became MORE than you thought they were?
Not college perceptions, I mean league production before/after.

[GvilleBills]

A quarterback born is elite, franchise defining. You can keep a job in the NFL, but not be at that level.

[Raptor]

It's not going to get better...I've said since day one he had no business being a first round pick in the first place and will never be a franchise QB.

everyone gets all caught up in his measurable's but there has always been something lacking. His accuracy is shaky at best and his play has always been erratic. It was the same way at Florida State. Now look at them with Winston a real future franchise QB. The offense has become a strength for Florida state instead of a hinderance like with EJ

[justasportsfan]

For everyone who thinks t we should just use the rest of the season to develop EJ, I can say the same thing that we should just use the rest of the season to develop Thad or Tuel. I don't know how you develop someone who is scared to throw the ball. Like the commentator said, The Steelers see that EJ needs to see his receivers open before he pulls the trigger. That's exactly how Trent was and no matter where Trent went after the bills let him go, he was the same dink and dunk SCARED player.

If we ever make playoffs with EJ, he will need to make throws in tight windows and trust his receivers to make plays. I doubt he will ever do that but if he does , I doubt he will on a consistent basis.

[Mr. Pink]

For everyone who thinks t we should just use the rest of the season to develop EJ, I can say the same thing that we should just use the rest of the season to develop Thad or Tuel. I don't know how you develop someone who is scared to throw the ball. Like the commentator said, The Steelers see that EJ needs to see his receivers open before he pulls the trigger. That's exactly how Trent was and no matter where Trent went after the bills let him go, he was the same dink and dunk SCARED player.

If we ever make playoffs with EJ, he will need to make throws in tight windows and trust his receivers to make plays. I doubt he will ever do that but if he does , I doubt he will on a consistent basis.

As much as I'd rather go out there and develop Lewis or Tuel, you'll leave people with the taste in their mouth that the franchise didn't give Manuel a chance. Leave Manuel out there for the rest of the year. Pull him in games when warranted, like today. Let the masses all see the guy is a bum so it's easier for the front office to pull the trigger and get someone else behind center next year.

[justasportsfan]

As much as I'd rather go out there and develop Lewis or Tuel, you'll leave people with the taste in their mouth that the franchise didn't give Manuel a chance. Leave Manuel out there for the rest of the year. Pull him in games when warranted, like today. Let the masses all see the guy is a bum so it's easier for the front office to pull the trigger and get someone else behind center next year.

then prepare for balck outs. I wont even bother watching them on tv. Waste of electricity.

[Novacane]

For everyone who thinks t we should just use the rest of the season to develop EJ, I can say the same thing that we should just use the rest of the season to develop Thad or Tuel. I don't know how you develop someone who is scared to throw the ball. Like the commentator said, The Steelers see that EJ needs to see his receivers open before he pulls the trigger. That's exactly how Trent was and no matter where Trent went after the bills let him go, he was the same dink and dunk SCARED player.

If we ever make playoffs with EJ, he will need to make throws in tight windows and trust his receivers to make plays. I doubt he will ever do that but if he does , I doubt he will on a consistent basis.


He's the first round draft pick. That's how it works.

[justasportsfan]

He's the first round draft pick. That's how it works.

unfortunately.

I don't know if he'll even be as good as Jason Campbell.

[Novacane]

then prepare for balck outs. I wont even bother watching them on tv. Waste of electricity.


The rest of the games will be blacked out regardless. You aren't seriously suggesting games might sell out if they went with Tuel or Thad are you? We are 3-7. It's getting cold. They are not selling out any more games.

[Novacane]

unfortunately.

I don't know if he'll even be as good as Jason Campbell.

I don't have a lot of hope left but I'm fine with playing him the next 6 games. Remove all doubt

[kishoph]

Seriously... who has come in the league flawed, and REALLY improved? Who became MORE than you thought they were?
Not college perceptions, I mean league production before/after.


You're "seriously" trying to say that no QB (or player) has come into the league with flaws and has improved with time and experience ?

[GvilleBills]

You're "seriously" trying to say that no QB (or player) has come into the league with flaws and has improved with time and experience ?

I asked for examples. Simple question with a complicated answer. Who has really improved to become more than what they were? And I never said (player) like you tried to insert. LBers for example, make these leaps quite often. Navorro Bowman, etc. I asked for QBs, have yet to get an answer. The history is riddled with QBs who are who we thought they were...never anything more.

[John Doe]

I asked for examples. Simple question with a complicated answer. Who has really improved to become more than what they were? And I never said (player) like you tried to insert. LBers for example, make these leaps quite often. Navorro Bowman, etc. I asked for QBs, have yet to get an answer. The history is riddled with QBs who are who we thought they were...never anything more.

John Unitas

[psubills62]

It was really sad that the offense seemed to move twice as well under Thaddeus Lewis as it did under Manuel. He was positively awful today. Can't justify that performance in any way.

[GvilleBills]

John Unitas

One example in 60 years. And his yds per att his rookie year was pretty dead on to career averages. Outside of yds per game, he was who he appeared to be. Leopards don't change their spots.

[jills]

Rust? ROFLMFAO!!!!

Guess he has been rusty since his college days.

[Historian]

Worst QB on the roster since Bruce Mathison.

Oh stop!

The worst QB since Bruce Mathison was Vince Ferragamo.

[GingerP]

John Unitas

Unitas' numbers may not look great as a rookie compared to today, but you have to put his numbers in context for the time. His 55.6% completions was a rookie record at the time. The game wasn't about efficient passing back then, it was a down-field game. During his rookie year Unitas led the Colts to big upsets over Green Bay and Cleveland. He was very good as a rookie and was named MVP in his first full season as a starter.

[jdaltroy5]

I asked for examples. Simple question with a complicated answer. Who has really improved to become more than what they were? And I never said (player) like you tried to insert. LBers for example, make these leaps quite often. Navorro Bowman, etc. I asked for QBs, have yet to get an answer. The history is riddled with QBs who are who we thought they were...never anything more.
That's not true at all.

Every good QB who was taken outside of the top 5 is more than we thought they'd be.

[GvilleBills]

That's not true at all.

Every good QB who was taken outside of the top 5 is more than we thought they'd be.
So no example then? Carry on.

Nothing to do with the draft. The contrarian look isn't always a good one.

Back to the ACTUAL QUESTION, still unanswered.

[GvilleBills]

Who has changed their spots in the NFL? Once again: not college projection, NFL production

[JohnnyGold]

I'm really disappointed by yesterdays loss, primarily because the NFL season is so short, and there's so much time between right now and the start of the next season. 10 weeks of football and the Bills are out of it, means 42 weeks of waiting until week 1 next season. More than winning a super bowl, or even making the playoffs, it would just be nice if weeks 16 and 17 carried meaning for the Bills, at some point, in the next 10 years.

To me, it's not just that stupid "14 years and counting" statistic, it's the fact that we're usually mathematically eliminated with 4-5 games to go, and trending towards being mathematically eliminated with 6 games to go. If you say, conservatively, that 5 bills games a year don't matter, that means that there have been 70 weeks of football over this stretch where the NFL machine has chugged along, playoff conversations aplenty centering on teams like the Buccaneers, the Raiders, the Bengals, hell--even the Browns--while the Bills remain relegated to an afterthought, not even in the conversation.

The loss that finally brings that moment to fruition--like last year v. Indy--always hurts the worst. To see a team be out of the playoff conversation before the Thanksgiving turkey has even been carved... it sucks.

But EJ deserves more that this from us as fans. He looked bad today, sure. But he missed half of preseason, and half of this season (to this point). He needs time to develop, sorry if that doesn't sound exciting. I'm not saying he's going to be amazing--I can't see the future--but I think you give this guy and this coach his 2.5-3 years, just like Fitzy, Edwards and Losman.

Flacco looked like garbage yesterday... (hell, EJ even beat him in our building last month) but they are super bowl champions.

The NFL isn't a league of dominating teams and players, like the NBA. It's a league where 10-6 teams draw good matchups in the playoffs, and ride a hot QB for 3 weeks into the super bowl. Not saying that will happen with EJ (I can't see the future, as stated earlier), but yesterday's game was a tough draw for our guy, and the QB (2 time super bowl champion) on the other sideline didn't play much better (about 50 more passing yards). It was a blustery, mid-november game, on the road, against a tough, defensive minded football organization that was coming home off an embarrassing loss. Throw in the fact that EJ was returning from a month away from the game, and he's a rookie? I mean, I am a wildly optimistic fan, but that's a tough game to win.

IDK guys, I just hope the fans that show up for next weeks game don't boo EJ into oblivion.

[DynaPaul]

But EJ deserves more that this from us as fans. He looked bad today, sure. But he missed half of preseason, and half of this season (to this point). He needs time to develop, sorry if that doesn't sound exciting. I'm not saying he's going to be amazing--I can't see the future--but I think you give this guy and this coach his 2.5-3 years, just like Fitzy, Edwards and Losman.

This is true but at the same time there are just some things that you can't teach like accuracy and taking a chance on throws where your WR can make a play on the ball. They can probably fix his footwork and help diagnosis of defenses but I'm not liking what I'm seeing so far. I'd rather he takes shots and risk interceptions rather than just dumping it off to wide open outlet players. NFL defenses will give you those throws all day.

[jdaltroy5]

So no example then? Carry on.

Nothing to do with the draft. The contrarian look isn't always a good one.

Back to the ACTUAL QUESTION, still unanswered.I did answer it.

I can give you examples if you want:

Joe Montana
Drew Brees
Brett Favre
Kurt Warner
Tony Romo
Aaron Rodgers
Joe Flacco
Tom Brady
Ben Roethlisberger
Russell Wilson
Colin Kaepernick

[JohnnyGold]

This is true but at the same time there are just some things that you can't teach like accuracy and taking a chance on throws where your WR can make a play on the ball. They can probably fix his footwork and help diagnosis of defenses but I'm not liking what I'm seeing so far. I'd rather he takes shots and risk interceptions rather than just dumping it off to wide open outlet players. NFL defenses will give you those throws all day.

I agree, he has looked tentative so far, but at the same time, if he came out like a mad gun slinger yesterday, threw 4 picks, and we lost 42-10, i'd feel a lot worse today.

There are some things that probably need to be fixed--i've never coached a quarterback before, nor have i played the position competitively so i can't comment on his footwork or mechanics--however, i have to assume that EJ does command the ability to throw a 7 yard pass: a skill set of his that has been critiqued this morning.

Losing sucks. It sucks that I wasted 10 sundays to this point--days when I could have worked on the house, gone on a day trip with my wife, or just generally engaged in activities that would have left me feeling like I enjoyed 100% of the weekend, as opposed to wishing the hours away on saturday so I could watch the Bills game on Sunday, only to waste a day on the couch getting my heart broken for the 14th straight year.

With that being said: with Brady and Manning both nearing the end of their careers, aside from Andrew Luck, there certainly aren't many inspiring quarterbacks in our conference. I'm not ready to close the book on EJ this morning: he's played 5.5 games for us. Even for reactionary Bills fans, this is too much. He beat the Super Bowl champions in his rookie year, and had a comeback against the Panthers. Quality wins, both of them. He has looked overmatched against the Steelers and Jets (both on the road) but played both games as if he didn't want to lose them. From a rookie QB (in his first 6 games of action) I will take someone who reverts to being a "game manager" when he feels overmatched, as opposed to Losman-era football.

Bottom line: I am very dissapointed our season is over going into week 11.

But I am very excited for a new draft class to come in next season, and to watch EJ play in his second year under center, with Brady a year older, and the division up for grabs.

And as much as it hurts me to say it, if next season is another middling 8-8 affair, I will be even more excited for 2015, when Brady is likely retired and EJ and Marrone enter year 3, both on the hot-seat.

I think Bills fans, at some point, went from being patient watching a rebuild, to expecting the playoffs. And those who did are now criticizing the "optimists" and the "kool-aid" drinkers, and are very mad. Which is ironic, because they went from being cold-hearted, to thinking there was a chance, to now being devastated.

Bills fans are like the husbands who catch their wives sleeping with their best friends, go to couples therapy, dare to think things are beter, and then catch their wife *****ing the therapist.

[Historian]

Normally you could blame 2 to 3 drops on Chandler and Johnson, but yesterday the throws simply were not there.

Several were way behind the receiver.

The good news is: At some point during his injury, he learned to slide to protect himself!

[jdaltroy5]

Normally you could blame 2 to 3 drops on Chandler and Johnson, but yesterday the throws simply were not there.

Several were way behind the receiver.

The good news is: At some point during his injury, he learned to slide to protect himself!Even the completions were bad.

He has to learn to lead the receiver. Guys were twisting and turning in mid air to make adjustments or getting hammered as soon as they caught it.

Hopefully the long ball comes with time, but I'm more worried about his anticipation on short/intermediate throws.

[GvilleBills]

I did answer it.

I can give you examples if you want:

Joe Montana
Drew Brees
Brett Favre
Kurt Warner
Tony Romo
Aaron Rodgers
Joe Flacco
Tom Brady
Ben Roethlisberger
Russell Wilson
Colin Kaepernick
I'll give you Brees, and probably Brady. Marked improvements.
Everyone else has been pretty much who they were in their first real action.

[jdaltroy5]

I'll give you Brees, and probably Brady. Marked improvements.
Everyone else has been pretty much who they were in their first real action.
Really?

So teams thought that Montana was going to be one of the best QBs of all time, yet they wouldn't even use a first or second round pick to take him? Teams thought Warner was going to be one of the best in the league but didn't even want to use ANY pick to take him?

"Hey Rodgers is still on the board. He's going to be an MVP one day and lead his team to a SB." "Pipe down Jim, we need a RT."

Give me a break man.

If teams knew how good these guys were going to be, they would've been taken in the top 5.

[GvilleBills]

Even the completions were bad.

He has to learn to lead the receiver. Guys were twisting and turning in mid air to make adjustments or getting hammered as soon as they caught it.

Hopefully the long ball comes with time, but I'm more worried about his anticipation on short/intermediate throws.

He has no anticipation. We all should be very worried. My whole point here is you've got it, or you don't.
EJ is the worst kind of young QB. Physically-elite. Off field/character- elite. Guts-nonexistant. Plays too scared. Doesn't appear to trust what he sees, or is shell shocked by it.

[jdaltroy5]

He has no anticipation. We all should be very worried. My whole point here is you've got it, or you don't.
EJ is the worst kind of young QB. Physically-elite. Off field/character- elite. Guts-nonexistant. Plays too scared. Doesn't appear to trust what he sees, or is shell shocked by it.I don't disagree with your analysis at this point.

But there have been a lot of guys that had huge glaring flaws that have been corrected at the pro level.

I'm not saying EJ can do it, but I'm saying it has been done before.

[colin]

OK, here is a q for all the college football heads: what is different between ponder and ej? What gives us hope ej is a better player than ponder? Also, how does their frosh qb at FSU compare?

[GvilleBills]

Really?

So teams thought that Montana was going to be one of the best QBs of all time, yet they wouldn't even use a first or second round pick to take him? Teams thought Warner was going to be one of the best in the league but didn't even want to use ANY pick to take him?

"Hey Rodgers is still on the board. He's going to be an MVP one day and lead his team to a SB." "Pipe down Jim, we need a RT."

Give me a break man.

If teams knew how good these guys were going to be, they would've been taken in the top 5.

Missing the point, again.
When Warner, Rodgers, Romo, Favre, etc. Got their shot in the league, they played to the same tune for the rest of their careers. One more time, they were not a marked improvement later in their careers. From day one, who they were at their core was evident from jump street.
Has nothing to do with draft process. I've been very clear on this point.

[jdaltroy5]

Missing the point, again.
When Warner, Rodgers, Romo, Favre, etc. Got their shot in the league, they played to the same tune for the rest of their careers. One more time, they were not a marked improvement later in their careers. From day one, who they were at their core was evident from jump street.
Has nothing to do with draft process. I've been very clear on this point.I'm not missing the point. At all.

So these guys showed poise in the pocket, dedication, leadership, accuracy, and all the things that make a great QB and yet, teams didn't want to use a top ten pick on them? In some cases, teams didn't want to use ANY pick on them?

When they were in college, I'm sure those guys showed flashes of what they are in the NFL today. That's what got them drafted in the first place. But they never showed it with any kind of consistency, otherwise, they would've been taken in the top 5.

EJ has shown flashes that he can be great as well. Unfortunately, at this point, it's been hidden under several putrid games.

If EJ played tentatively and missed an abundance of short throws in college, he wouldn't have ever been drafted. He obviously has shown some skills that made a lot of teams put a relatively high grade on him.

He's just not anywhere near consistent enough doing them.

[justasportsfan]

The rest of the games will be blacked out regardless. You aren't seriously suggesting games might sell out if they went with Tuel or Thad are you? We are 3-7. It's getting cold. They are not selling out any more games.

Theres a better chance we can with with either Thad or Tuel and winning sells tickets. DO I expect them to win ? No, but IMO you can fixed bad decisions (Tuel) than gunshy (EJ/Trent/Rob Johnson)

[justasportsfan]

But EJ deserves more that this from us as fans. He looked bad today, sure. But he missed half of preseason, and half of this season (to this point). He needs time to develop, sorry if that doesn't sound exciting. I'm not saying he's going to be amazing--I can't see the future--but I think you give this guy and this coach his 2.5-3 years, just like Fitzy, Edwards and Losman.



Thad and Tuel missed more than that. They missed more snaps with the no.1's and they weren't that horrible.

It's hard for me to stomach a qb that makes Rob Johnson and Trent Edwards look like a gunslinger. They could at least hit 5 yard thorws. EJ couldn't.


All our qb's need time to develop but right now I don't know how high EJ's ceiling is anymore. The guy wont throw the ball unless the receivers are open.

[justasportsfan]

I would agree with those who say EJ was rusty if he wasn't inaccurate dinking and dunking prior to getting injured. He's doing the same thing.

[EDS]

In some respects, I actually would prefer to see EJ air it out and throw 4 interceptions trying to make things happen then playing tentative football. He is a rookie, so mistakes are expected, but you want to see a glimmer of playmaking ability to give you hope that greater maturity and experience will turn those 40 yard bombs from backbreaking interceptions to backbracking touchdowns for the opposition.

[jdaltroy5]

Thad and Tuel missed more than that. They missed more snaps with the no.1's and they weren't that horrible.

It's hard for me to stomach a qb that makes Rob Johnson and Trent Edwards look like a gunslinger. They could at least hit 5 yard thorws. EJ couldn't.


All our qb's need time to develop but right now I don't know how high EJ's ceiling is anymore. The guy wont throw the ball unless the receivers are open.I think the biggest difference between Thad/Tuel and EJ is the mentality.

Thad/Tuel probably that it was their one and only shot and they had to make it count.

Whereas Manuel is probably thinking that he has a lot of time to progress and the most important thing at the moment is to not screw up.

I think Marrone has to drill it in his head that if he wants to be an NFL QB, he has to take certain calculated risks.

[GvilleBills]

I'm not missing the point. At all.

So these guys showed poise in the pocket, dedication, leadership, accuracy, and all the things that make a great QB and yet, teams didn't want to use a top ten pick on them? In some cases, teams didn't want to use ANY pick on them?

When they were in college, I'm sure those guys showed flashes of what they are in the NFL today. That's what got them drafted in the first place. But they never showed it with any kind of consistency, otherwise, they would've been taken in the top 5.

EJ has shown flashes that he can be great as well. Unfortunately, at this point, it's been hidden under several putrid games.

If EJ played tentatively and missed an abundance of short throws in college, he wouldn't have ever been drafted. He obviously has shown some skills that made a lot of teams put a relatively high grade on him.

He's just not anywhere near consistent enough doing them.

Did you watch him in college? I did. He feasted on the bums comprising FSU schedule. When he faced real competition, with more than one or two guys who would be playing on Sunday, he shrank and looked like he did yesterday (and many times this year).
His "upside" is all that got him drafted so high. But I'm not talking about college to pro. I'm talking about who he initially shows as a pro being markedly different from his eventual career path. An inaccurate, scared QB becoming a franchise grade assassin. Has that ever happened?

I'd have to look, but even Brees' improvement may be attributed to the departure of Martyball and arrival of Norv.
EJ looks like the dude I used to laugh at my FSU buddies when he quickly threw the "off the back foot bucket pass" to avoid the rush.
I drank the kool-aid, believing he could be fixed. Against my better judgement, giving the benefit of the doubt. Not anymore. I'm convinced in order to be elite in the League, you gotta be a QB born. EJ is not.

[GvilleBills]

I would agree with those who say EJ was rusty if he wasn't inaccurate dinking and dunking prior to getting injured. He's doing the same thing.

Somebody gets it.

[GvilleBills]

I think the biggest difference between Thad/Tuel and EJ is the mentality.

Thad/Tuel probably that it was their one and only shot and they had to make it count.

Whereas Manuel is probably thinking that he has a lot of time to progress and the most important thing at the moment is to not screw up.

I think Marrone has to drill it in his head that if he wants to be an NFL QB, he has to take certain calculated risks.

I agree, to a point. But this isn't Oz, and no one is gifting him a heart.

[TacklingDummy]

I would agree with those who say EJ was rusty if he wasn't inaccurate dinking and dunking prior to getting injured. He's doing the same thing. I don't care how rusty someone is they should be able to throw dump-offs that are catch able.

I go all winter without throwing the baseball to my son, come sporing time my first throw is accurate. That's without practicing all week.

[jdaltroy5]

Did you watch him in college? I did. He feasted on the bums comprising FSU schedule. When he faced real competition, with more than one or two guys who would be playing on Sunday, he shrank and looked like he did yesterday (and many times this year).
His "upside" is all that got him drafted so high. But I'm not talking about college to pro. I'm talking about who he initially shows as a pro being markedly different from his eventual career path. An inaccurate, scared QB becoming a franchise grade assassin. Has that ever happened?

I'd have to look, but even Brees' improvement may be attributed to the departure of Martyball and arrival of Norv.
EJ looks like the dude I used to laugh at my FSU buddies when he quickly threw the "off the back foot bucket pass" to avoid the rush.
I drank the kool-aid, believing he could be fixed. Against my better judgement, giving the benefit of the doubt. Not anymore. I'm convinced in order to be elite in the League, you gotta be a QB born. EJ is not.So if all those guys played the same way in college that they do in the pros, why weren't they taken earlier?

Your premise doesn't make any sense.

[justasportsfan]

I think the biggest difference between Thad/Tuel and EJ is the mentality.

Thad/Tuel probably that it was their one and only shot and they had to make it count.

Whereas Manuel is probably thinking that he has a lot of time to progress and the most important thing at the moment is to not screw up.

I think Marrone has to drill it in his head that if he wants to be an NFL QB, he has to take certain calculated risks.


EJ has only one shot to win one game at a time. If EJ is overlooking each and every game then he needs to go. He won't last any playoff game because he'll be looking ahead instead of whats in front of him.

[jdaltroy5]

I agree, to a point. But this isn't Oz, and no one is gifting him a heart.
I'm not saying they are.

If I were Marrone, I'd be going over the all 22s with him all week. Explain to him what "open" means on an intermediate or deep ball. Tell him to go for it.

If he pulls the same crap that he did yesterday, I'd bench him at halftime just to send a message.

I'd let him start again the week after and see how he reacts to it.

Hopefully it gives him the mentality of being on thin ice and having to be more aggressive if he wants to remain the starter.

[justasportsfan]

I don't care how rusty someone is they should be able to throw dump-offs that are catch able.

I go all winter without throwing the baseball to my son, come sporing time my first throw is accurate. That's without practicing all week.

speaking of winter, if EJ is this bad without snow, whats there to look forward to?

At least Trent for 124 in a blizzard game loss to the browns. He was horrible but at least he was throwing it.

EJ nos. yesterday were padded during garbage time.

[jdaltroy5]

EJ has only one shot to win one game at a time. If EJ is overlooking each and every game then he needs to go. He won't last any playoff game because he'll be looking ahead instead of whats in front of him.
I don't think he's overlooking every game and that's not what I was implying. Playing cautiously and "not to lose" doesn't mean that you've overlooking the game.

[GvilleBills]

So if all those guys played the same way in college that they do in the pros, why weren't they taken earlier?

Your premise doesn't make any sense.
Nothing wrong with the premise of my question. You're just changing the subject instead of answering the original question. You should change your username to OffTopic. Last time. **** college. Answer the question. Has a QB become fundamentally different than the player they initially were shown to be?

[justasportsfan]

I don't think he's overlooking every game and that's not what I was implying. Playing cautiously and "not to lose" doesn't mean that you've overlooking the game.

playing not to lose is a mental problem. Can that be fixed? We'll have to ask Rob Johnson and Trent. Accuracy are on their side vs. EJ. Now I don't know if both problems together can be fixed.

[TacklingDummy]

Why would anyone be overlooking anything when they are 3-6?

[GvilleBills]

I'm not saying they are.

If I were Marrone, I'd be going over the all 22s with him all week. Explain to him what "open" means on an intermediate or deep ball. Tell him to go for it.

If he pulls the same crap that he did yesterday, I'd bench him at halftime just to send a message.

I'd let him start again the week after and see how he reacts to it.

Hopefully it gives him the mentality of being on thin ice and having to be more aggressive if he wants to remain the starter.

I would love to see that approach. It may be the only thing that can get him out of his shell. I doubt it, but 100% support this scenario.
Thing is, I would've hoped some of the diagnosis part would've occurred during his time in the booth with Hackett.

[justasportsfan]

Another thing....why do we even bother with the read option when EJ almost always hands it off anyways? Its night and day when Thad runs it as opposed to EJ. Ej's just doesn't have the balls to take matters into his own hands.

We should trade EJ to the giants for Nassib is the read option is off the table.

[jdaltroy5]

Nothing wrong with the premise of my question. You're just changing the subject instead of answering the original question. You should change your username to OffTopic. Last time. **** college. Answer the question. Has a QB become fundamentally different than the player they initially were shown to be?
Well define "fundamentally" then. What kind of of consistency are we talking about here? Your parameters are way too vague.

EJ did throw the ball deep in college and won championships. Not against elite talent though. That's why he was taken 16th overall, not 1st.

Just like Rodgers, Brees, Favre, and all the other guys I listed.

Those guys were not consistent against elite competition in college either. That's why they dropped down the draft board. When they made the pros, they were consistent against elite competition.

I don't know how that's off topic. That is directly answering your question.

[jdaltroy5]

playing not to lose is a mental problem. Can that be fixed? We'll have to ask Rob Johnson and Trent. Accuracy are on their side vs. EJ. Now I don't know if both problems together can be fixed.
I don't know if they can fixed either. I would take measure to see if it can though.

Clearly EJ is playing not to lose and not going through his reads properly at this point.

[GvilleBills]

Well define "fundamentally" then. What kind of of consistency are we talking about here? Your parameters are way too vague.

EJ did throw the ball deep in college and won championships. Not against elite talent though. That's why he was taken 16th overall, not 1st.

Just like Rodgers, Brees, Favre, and all the other guys I listed.

Those guys were not consistent against elite competition in college either. That's why they dropped down the draft board. When they made the pros, they were consistent against elite competition.

I don't know how that's off topic. That is directly answering your question.
Off topic is bringing up college when the question is about the NFL. Has anyone, from what they've shown in 5 games + in the NFL become a completely different QB later in their career? Gone from inaccurate, hesitant deer in the headlights to laser like franchise defining assassin? That's been the question the whole time, no matter how you want to spin it.

[jdaltroy5]

Off topic is bringing up college when the question is about the NFL. Has anyone, from what they've shown in 5 games + in the NFL become a completely different QB later in their career? Gone from inaccurate, hesitant deer in the headlights to laser like franchise defining assassin? That's been the question the whole time, no matter how you want to spin it.Ok, well you confused me then. You said, "Who has come INTO the league flawed and REALLY improved."

Peyton Manning was horribly inaccurate in his rookie year. Most QBs are.

I think the major difference is at least they are willing to try to sling it down the field. Manuel is not at this point.

[justasportsfan]

Peyton Manning was horribly inaccurate in his rookie year. Most QBs are.


were they inaccurate at 5 yards?

[jdaltroy5]

were they inaccurate at 5 yards?
Look, I'm not saying EJ is going to amount to anything.

The guy can clearly hit a 5 yard pass in practice and could in college. If he couldn't, he wouldn't be starting and would've never been drafted.

It's just a mental thing that hopefully comes to him with in game reps. He's just way too nervous out there.

[GvilleBills]

Ok, well you confused me then. You said, "Who has come INTO the league flawed and REALLY improved."

Peyton Manning was horribly inaccurate in his rookie year. Most QBs are.

I think the major difference is at least they are willing to try to sling it down the field. Manuel is not at this point.

Thought I cleared it up with "not college projections, NFL production", but I can see where you might get confused. Its cool.
Peyton wasn't inaccurate so much as he had to reevaluate the windows he was trying to fit into. But he always had heart. Manuel, on this we agree, isn't willing to let it fly.

[pmoon6]

John UnitasTerry Bradshaw was less than impressive early in his career and went Number 1. Took him a few years.

Of course, in today's impatient world, 5 games are enough to judge. I didn't like the Manuel pick, but now he's ours. This is what happens when you put a raw rookie out there. It would have been much better to have him hold the clipboard the first year.

[GvilleBills]

Terry Bradshaw was less than impressive early in his career and went Number 1. Took him a few years.

Of course, in today's impatient world, 5 games are enough to judge. I didn't like the Manuel pick, but now he's ours. This is what happens when you put a raw rookie out there. It would have been much better to have him hold the clipboard the first year.

Would've been the best thing for him.

[jdaltroy5]

Thought I cleared it up with "not college projections, NFL production", but I can see where you might get confused. Its cool.
Peyton wasn't inaccurate so much as he had to reevaluate the windows he was trying to fit into. But he always had heart. Manuel, on this we agree, isn't willing to let it fly.
The coaching staff has to do something about it then. I get it that he wants to play it safe for the first couple of games and get used to the speed of everything. But it seems like he's regressed in that aspect.

Hopefully he was just rusty and wanted to ease back into the game. I want to see him start hitting those 15 yard outs and at least TRYING for the fly routes on the outside by the end of the season. And by trying, I mean trying to hit your receiver, not trying to hit the cheerleaders on the sidelines.

[cookie G]

Off topic is bringing up college when the question is about the NFL. Has anyone, from what they've shown in 5 games + in the NFL become a completely different QB later in their career? Gone from inaccurate, hesitant deer in the headlights to laser like franchise defining assassin? That's been the question the whole time, no matter how you want to spin it.

Yeah..John Elway. Horrible rookie year on what was actually a decent team.

Less than 50% completion percentage
7 TD's in 10 starts

Was benched on several occasions. At one time, he actually lined up under guard instead of center. He admitted later that he played scared. People who he was in awe of, like Jack Lambert, were now a few yards away from him and ready to tear his head off.

The aforementioned Drew Brees is another case.
Eli Manning was another case. He remained a question mark up until the time he won his first SB.
Brett Favre spent so much time partying that he was traded. Jerry Glanville told him that he'd never be an NFL QB acting like he was. Later, Favre said Glanville was right.

Do any of these examples mean EJ Manuel is going to make it? Nope.
Does it mean the Bills should wait for him for 3 years to see if he will make it without a plan B in place? Nope.
Should the Bills draft another QB in round 1 next year? Maybe, probably. Worst case scenario means they kept trying to fill the most important position on the field. Best case scenario, you have 2 good QB's on the roster.

But to get back to your question...does 5 games in a rookie year define a QB? Hell no.

I fully expected a lot of peaks and valleys from him and never expected him to be a finished product his rookie year. The inaccuracy he showed in those little passes yesterday, I'll strike up to nerves. If anything, he might have tried to put a little too much on his shoulders. He might have believed the hype and seen himself as the savior and in the process, couldn't even do the little things.

A completely unimaginative game plan doesn't help things. It wasn't until the 4th quarter, I think, that they actually passed on 1st down. As much as they are trying to protect him, putting him in a 3rd and 8 situtation isn't helping him.

And they really need to stop running the stupid read-option with him. 1) he isn't a read option QB. He's mobile, and can escape the pocket, but that's not a read option QB. 2) He's even less of an option to run after his injury 3) The read option works when you have a QB who will actually run with the ball. Even before his injury...he probably exercised his "option" of running with the ball....twice. You aren't fooling anybody..all you are doing is having an ill designed hand off.

The TrentEdwardsitis scares me more than anything. Bill Parcells used to tell Phil Simms..."if you aren't throwing INT's, you aren't trying." He might need a pep talk frm Parcells. In addition...in looking for a veteran presence...there's a Hall of Famer who is usually standing on the sidelines during their games. Use the knowledge...use the wisdom.

[pmoon6]

The coaching staff has to do something about it then. I get it that he wants to play it safe for the first couple of games and get used to the speed of everything. But it seems like he's regressed in that aspect.

Hopefully he was just rusty and wanted to ease back into the game. I want to see him start hitting those 15 yard outs and at least TRYING for the fly routes on the outside by the end of the season. And by trying, I mean trying to hit your receiver, not trying to hit the cheerleaders on the sidelines.Did you see the interception when the intended receiver was basically tackled from behind? Not that it would made a difference because the ball was under thrown, but it should have been flagged.

That's the Stealers though, they have been getting away with that **** for 40 years, especially at home. I gave us a slim chance to win yesterday, but I was surprised that Hackett didn't at least try to open it up in the second half. I think Manuel went deep twice the whole game. One of the most putrid offensive performances I've witnessed.

[cookie G]

Terry Bradshaw was less than impressive early in his career and went Number 1. Took him a few years.

Of course, in today's impatient world, 5 games are enough to judge. I didn't like the Manuel pick, but now he's ours. This is what happens when you put a raw rookie out there. It would have been much better to have him hold the clipboard the first year.

The idea of a rookie taking the NFL by storm used to be the exception rather than the rule. The Dan Marino was the rarity..and the John Elway/Steve Young was the rule.

It HAS changed a bit, probably due to the sophistication of college passing games. But that is no guarantee that a college QB is going to be ready. Many tried to warn that even today...last year's early success of Luck, Griffin and Kapernick was more of a fluke than the general rule.

[pmoon6]

The idea of a rookie taking the NFL by storm used to be the exception rather than the rule. The Dan Marino was the rarity..and the John Elway/Steve Young was the rule.

It HAS changed a bit, probably due to the sophistication of college passing games. But that is no guarantee that a college QB is going to be ready. Many tried to warn that even today...last year's early success of Luck, Griffin and Kapernick was more of a fluke than the general rule.Of course it was, as is the inclination of our youngsters to want to start a rookie. "Duh, let's see what he's got from the git go Scooby so we can make a snap judgment".

Montana sat a year and a half, Brady a year and only started out of necessity the next. Staubach had to settle in behind Morton for a short time. Aikman was 1-15 his first year spending almost the entire season looking at the hole in the roof from his seat on the ground. Kelly apprenticed in the USFL and was far from stellar his first two years with Buffalo. Tons of examples, but that doesn't stop the board "intelligentsia" from thinking it's a good idea to start the rookie and expect him to be good. Of course, this is the same fanbase that some thought Frank Reich should be the starting QB.

[trapezeus]

I agree, he has looked tentative so far, but at the same time, if he came out like a mad gun slinger yesterday, threw 4 picks, and we lost 42-10, i'd feel a lot worse today.

There are some things that probably need to be fixed--i've never coached a quarterback before, nor have i played the position competitively so i can't comment on his footwork or mechanics--however, i have to assume that EJ does command the ability to throw a 7 yard pass: a skill set of his that has been critiqued this morning.

Losing sucks. It sucks that I wasted 10 sundays to this point--days when I could have worked on the house, gone on a day trip with my wife, or just generally engaged in activities that would have left me feeling like I enjoyed 100% of the weekend, as opposed to wishing the hours away on saturday so I could watch the Bills game on Sunday, only to waste a day on the couch getting my heart broken for the 14th straight year.

With that being said: with Brady and Manning both nearing the end of their careers, aside from Andrew Luck, there certainly aren't many inspiring quarterbacks in our conference. I'm not ready to close the book on EJ this morning: he's played 5.5 games for us. Even for reactionary Bills fans, this is too much. He beat the Super Bowl champions in his rookie year, and had a comeback against the Panthers. Quality wins, both of them. He has looked overmatched against the Steelers and Jets (both on the road) but played both games as if he didn't want to lose them. From a rookie QB (in his first 6 games of action) I will take someone who reverts to being a "game manager" when he feels overmatched, as opposed to Losman-era football.

Bottom line: I am very dissapointed our season is over going into week 11.

But I am very excited for a new draft class to come in next season, and to watch EJ play in his second year under center, with Brady a year older, and the division up for grabs.

And as much as it hurts me to say it, if next season is another middling 8-8 affair, I will be even more excited for 2015, when Brady is likely retired and EJ and Marrone enter year 3, both on the hot-seat.

I think Bills fans, at some point, went from being patient watching a rebuild, to expecting the playoffs. And those who did are now criticizing the "optimists" and the "kool-aid" drinkers, and are very mad. Which is ironic, because they went from being cold-hearted, to thinking there was a chance, to now being devastated.

Bills fans are like the husbands who catch their wives sleeping with their best friends, go to couples therapy, dare to think things are beter, and then catch their wife *****ing the therapist.

these kind of level headed responses are so far and few between on message boards.

[WagonCircler]

Here's the problem with the whole "John Elway and Johnny Unitas improved greatly...."

For every guy like them, there are about 500 who struggled as rookie starters and went on to careers in the insurance or auto sales industries.

EJ Manuel makes Rick Ankiel feel better about himself.

[trapezeus]

my thoughts are:

1. the games the bills have lost, they have competed against a QB where they were more accurate. receivers covered well, but put the ball only where they could catch it. EJ has not been that guy. Can he learn it? probably.

2. EJ isn't looking around. He normally finds one guy and waits until he is open. then he throws it like he's pushing the ball or throwing a dart. he doesn't look relaxed at all doing it.

3. someone has to give him a slant to run, some screens to throw to, and some reverses. we have some fast guys when the ball is in their hands. a defense watching the same stretch play to the left with CJ, will eventually bite with goodwin getting the reverse.

4. After all those receivers, they still need a legit big body. SJ is maybe not really anything but a 2. often injured, always good for a drop. right now, he looks very expensive for the production.

[pmoon6]

there are about 500 who struggled as rookie starters and went on to careers in the insurance or auto sales industries.I think "Smilin' Ted" has his car lot for sale on Bailey Avenue.

Of those 500, how many would have benefited by being eased into the starting role as opposed to being thrown into the fire?

A question that will perplex man until the NFL ceases to exist.

[Mr. Pink]

There's a difference in today's game vs 10+ years ago.

Pro offenses now are pretty similar to college offenses.

Part of the learning curve used to be learning a pro style offense.

Now these guys come into the league into the pistol offense, the read option offense, the spread offense...all offenses these guys ran for the prior 3 years at whatever college they went to. It's how guys like Russel Wilson, RGIII, Kaepernick, Luck were able to step in and be successful.

[kishoph]

I did answer it.

I can give you examples if you want:

Joe Montana
Drew Brees
Brett Favre
Kurt Warner
Tony Romo
Aaron Rodgers
Joe Flacco
Tom Brady
Ben Roethlisberger
Russell Wilson
Colin Kaepernick


I'll give you Brees, and probably Brady. Marked improvements.
Everyone else has been pretty much who they were in their first real action.

How many of those QB's started in their rookie year, at least a couple of them weren't named starters until their 4th year in the NFL, the last 3 started as rookies. I've pointed out before that Russell Wilson's and Manuel's stats after the first 5 games are very similar, other than Manuel threw for more yards and 3 less interceptions, Wilson also had an experienced coaching staff and experienced WR's. Manuel didn't even have 1 full training camp before being put out there. You can't ignore the fact that until recently most QB's had a year or more practicing in the NFL, before they were ever thrown out there as starters and what a difference it makes.
You also have to look at the competition the Bills have faced this year, going into yesterday's game the combined record was 49-28 and most of those teams defenses are ranked near the top.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Not only have the college offenses changed, but the rules so overwhelmingly favor the passing game. Talking about how Roger Staubach struggled in the 1970's is goofy, can you imagine if you brought 22 year old Staubach into the modern nfl?

"Wait, so you're telling me the defense can't hit me in the head OR the knees, and even if they hit me in the chest I might get a free first down anyway? And they can't hit my wideouts in the head or the knees either? And if they breathe on them downfield it's a free first down too? How do you get anyone to punt in this league?"

[pmoon6]

Not only have the college offenses changed, but the rules so overwhelmingly favor the passing game. Talking about how Roger Staubach struggled in the 1970's is goofy, can you imagine if you brought 22 year old Staubach into the modern nfl?

"Wait, so you're telling me the defense can't hit me in the head OR the knees, and even if they hit me in the chest I might get a free first down anyway? And they can't hit my wideouts in the head or the knees either? And if they breathe on them downfield it's a free first down too? How do you get anyone to punt in this league?"You couldn't have a 22 year old Roger come in the league. He was still fulfilling his military requirement.

And I didn't say he struggled, he just didn't start. Landry believed you needed time to learn the QB position by studying, not playing

[cookie G]

Of course it was, as is the inclination of our youngsters to want to start a rookie. "Duh, let's see what he's got from the git go Scooby so we can make a snap judgment".

Montana sat a year and a half, Brady a year and only started out of necessity the next. Staubach had to settle in behind Morton for a short time. Aikman was 1-15 his first year spending almost the entire season looking at the hole in the roof from his seat on the ground. Kelly apprenticed in the USFL and was far from stellar his first two years with Buffalo. Tons of examples, but that doesn't stop the board "intelligentsia" from thinking it's a good idea to start the rookie and expect him to be good. Of course, this is the same fanbase that some thought Frank Reich should be the starting QB.

I don't necessarily have a problem with starting a rookie..provided you know they can..and probably will fail at the outset. I think it is a matter of expectations.

[cookie G]

Here's the problem with the whole "John Elway and Johnny Unitas improved greatly...."

For every guy like them, there are about 500 who struggled as rookie starters and went on to careers in the insurance or auto sales industries.

EJ Manuel makes Rick Ankiel feel better about himself.

I totally agree with the concept. Few actually do succeed, out of far more candidates. It is the nature of the position.

That's why I wouldn't have a problem drafting another QB next year. I don't buy the concept of "well, we drafted a QB and we're stuck with him for 3 years and we can't draft or bring in anyone else".

Before Seattle settled on Russell Wilson, they kissed a few frogs.

They traded for Charlie Whitehurst;
They traded for (or did they sign?) Tavaris Jackson;
They spent a great deal on Flynn;
They used another 3rd round pick on Wilson.

Based on the importance of the position..and the failure rate...keep looking until you find someone.

[pmoon6]

I don't necessarily have a problem with starting a rookie..provided you know they can..and probably will fail at the outset. I think it is a matter of expectations.I don't really either since we had little other option, but like you said, there will be growing pains.

To use Wilson, Luck and Griffin as examples of why not E.J. is like saying "Why can't we get a great QB in the 6th round". It doesn't happen often and Wilson and Kaepernick went to teams pretty much built on the other side of the ball and experienced coaching staffs. We have rookie and a rookie offensive staff.

[TacklingDummy]

I don't really either since we had little other option, but like you said, there will be growing pains.

To use Wilson, Luck and Griffin as examples of why not E.J. is like saying "Why can't we get a great QB in the 6th round". It doesn't happen often and Wilson and Kaepernick went to teams pretty much built on the other side of the ball and experienced coaching staffs. We have rookie and a rookie offensive staff.

Kapernick was drafted in 2011, Harbaugh first year, just saying.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

You couldn't have a 22 year old Roger come in the league. He was still fulfilling his military requirement.

And I didn't say he struggled, he just didn't start. Landry believed you needed time to learn the QB position by studying, not playing

Fair enough, if anything Staubach would have needed to sit just because he was out of football. But my point stands, the transition from college to the NFL doesn't require the same level of book study that it once did, nor can the struggles of QBs drafted 30+ years ago teach us about how to develop guys today.

[jdaltroy5]

Kapernick was drafted in 2011, Harbaugh first year, just saying.
Kaepernick was a backup his first year.

Just sayin'.

[pmoon6]

Kapernick was drafted in 2011, Harbaugh first year, just saying.So what. Harbaugh benefited from having a lot of great players already there. Pretty easy to fine tune when you have guys like Bowman, Willis, Davis, Gore and a ready made O-Line.

So did Kaepernick.

[SpikedLemonade]

The Bills only made a decision to start EJ in the Opener through mismanagement. They did not bring in a viable competing alternative and then of course the injuries.

I did not want EJ to start until the game after the bye week but it did not play out that way.

I am patient enough to wait this out with EJ.

If however we go 3-13 and the 2nd best QB is still on the draft board, snatch him up.

[pmoon6]

Fair enough, if anything Staubach would have needed to sit just because he was out of football. But my point stands, the transition from college to the NFL doesn't require the same level of book study that it once did, nor can the struggles of QBs drafted 30+ years ago teach us about how to develop guys today.I agree with you there. (Kicks dirt and talks to self)

[WagonCircler]

Some guys adjust better than others, but the adjustment period is usually exacerbated by poor protection. EJ has, by and large, had very good protection, especially when you compare his situation with other Bills QB flops.

There are no excuses for most of his bad throws other than the fact that they're coming from a guy who just can't throw.

The only thing interesting to watch in yesterday's game was Stevie Johnson. I kept waiting for his head to explode out of frustration. You could see him trying not to just lose it.

[Mr. Pink]

I don't really either since we had little other option, but like you said, there will be growing pains.

To use Wilson, Luck and Griffin as examples of why not E.J. is like saying "Why can't we get a great QB in the 6th round". It doesn't happen often and Wilson and Kaepernick went to teams pretty much built on the other side of the ball and experienced coaching staffs. We have rookie and a rookie offensive staff.

The league has changed in the past 10 years.

The game is based around the QB and making it literally as easy as possible for him to succeed.

Rule changes that make the passing game easier. Can't touch him. etc...

Then NFL teams employ college systems as their base offense now.

Combine all of that and it's easy to see why guys can come in and succeed from Day 1. Mike Glennon looks pretty good in Tampa, Geno has looked good for stretches. Case Keenum comes in and looks good. 26 year old Scott Tolzien came in for the first time in his career yesterday for the Packers and made throws and looked like he belonged. Kirk Cousins played for an injured RGIII last year and looked good. Nick Foles ties an NFL record coming in for an injured Mike Vick. Hell even on the Bills themselves Thad Lewis comes in and looks competent. It happens all over the NFL where guys can come in to games fresh off the bench and not even light up the league but look like they actually belong on the field.

Yet, asking EJ Manuel to look like he even belongs on the field is too much to ask for?

He looks like Brady Quinn, Jimmy Claussen, Brandon Weeden, Blaine Gabbert...

And that isn't good enough.

[DynaPaul]

If he doesn't start showing signs by the finale we'll know he isn't the one. All the greats made nice plays as rookies as well as many mistakes. EJ is just not doing either.

[GvilleBills]

This whole "he shouldn't have been starting anyway" excuse is irrelevant. Best case scenario IMO? Tjax starting this season, allowing EJ to observe from the sidelines. Didn't happen.
So now that the reality is EJ starting, I don't think its too much to ask that he pull on his big boy pants and show some progression. He has the rest of the year.
EJ has shown nothing this year to stop us from procuring a QB if a viable option presents itself.

[BillsFever21]

I was fine with them taking a chance on EJ when they drafted him. I wasn't happy about it being in the 1st round because I never saw him as more then a 2nd round QB but I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

He never lived up to expectations at FSU and it's showing now that he's gone. I'm not ready to give up on him yet but he has been abysmal. I literally almost fell asleep during the game yesterday. Nothing but horrible incomplete passes or inaccurate completions on short throws that never had a chance. If not for the last drive he would've barely broke 100 yards passing.

Marrone and the playcalling has also been horrible. We run on first and second down and then we finally pass on 3rd down hoping to pick up the first down. We're one of the worse in the league in TD production when we do reach the Red Zone. There isn't much creativity from a Head Coach who is supposed to be an offensive guy.

[Raptor]

I was fine with them taking a chance on EJ when they drafted him. I wasn't happy about it being in the 1st round because I never saw him as more then a 2nd round QB but I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

He never lived up to expectations at FSU and it's showing now that he's gone. I'm not ready to give up on him yet but he has been abysmal. I literally almost fell asleep during the game yesterday. Nothing but horrible incomplete passes or inaccurate completions on short throws that never had a chance. If not for the last drive he would've barely broke 100 yards passing.

Marrone and the playcalling has also been horrible. We run on first and second down and then we finally pass on 3rd down hoping to pick up the first down. We're one of the worse in the league in TD production when we do reach the Red Zone. There isn't much creativity from a Head Coach who is supposed to be an offensive guy.

Play calling aint the problem, far from it. Players exacuting the calls have been below avg at best. The plays have been there to be made but if the players can exacute it than that is not on the coach nor the play calling. You could get the best play caller in the league in here and it wont mean dick if the players cant exacute it

[justasportsfan]

Play calling aint the problem, far from it. Players exacuting the calls have been below avg at best. The plays have been there to be made but if the players can exacute it than that is not on the coach nor the play calling. You could get the best play caller in the league in here and it wont mean dick if the players cant exacute it

EJ has spent the most time in the booth with Hackett out of all our qb's. Yet he's had the worst performance out of all 3. He just doesn't have the confidence in himself to pull the trigger. Your receivers can't make a play if you don't throw it to them.

[pmoon6]

And that isn't good enough.I agree the league has changed and for the worse. When some players are over protected because most fans want to see a lot of points, it becomes something other than football. Tell me why when E.J. moved out of the pocket and Timmons tattooed him, helmet to helmet was that not called? Certainly Tom Brady, Peyton Manning or Drew Brees would have got that call. So, you have a rookie that has to take those shots without penalty and high profile superstars that don't. Then you say, how great those QBs are while others suck. Different rules for different players.

I always have to laugh when a fan says "Not good enough" or "unacceptable". Like you are something more than a pissant on the mound of life.

You have two options. Apply for the GM or HC position or just follow another team.

Otherwise you can just continue the impotent, infantile prattle that you so love to engage in.

[Mr. Pink]

Well Moonie, apparently I'm just not as good of a fan as you.

You're willing to settle for mediocrity or worse.

[pmoon6]

Well Moonie, apparently I'm just not as good of a fan as you.

You're willing to settle for mediocrity or worse.Not really. I just don't cry about it incessantly.

[justasportsfan]

See what's happens when you pull the trigger? Thank you EJ.

[Novacane]

I hope this means he's turned the corner. Have to see more of it.

[BertSquirtgum]

You could see his confidence was building up to the Cleveland game. Hopefully he's going to gradually get better like he did in the beginning of the year.

[TacklingDummy]

Even RJ/JP had a couple of good throws per game.

[Don't Panic]

Loving this thread right now too...

[justasportsfan]

I hope this means he's turned the corner. Have to see more of it.

I hope this is the start of something big

[TacklingDummy]

After EJ worst game as a Pro, he has his best game.
Good for him, maybe it will give him some confidence.

[Don't Panic]

Here's the thing... he's going to suck again. Guaranteed. The point is, we need to see games like we did today. That's our sign of promise going forward.

[JCBills]

Here's the thing... he's going to suck again. Guaranteed. The point is, we need to see games like we did today. That's our sign of promise going forward.

Ups and downs for a rookie is usually just part of the growing process.

Anyone who can't admit that is just sour.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Great game for him. Let's keep it up. I liked the balls to throw downfield, I liked throwing into tight windows. I liked scrambling when it was available. Keep it up

[Fixxxer]

He hit a sideline throw today, a little behind, buy it was a catch.

He hit Goodwin deep for a TD

He hit Chandler in the middle of the field on 3rd and long to kill the Jets hopes.

Those are the passes that if hit consistently can make a career.

He will struggle at times but he needs to find consistency. It was nice to see EJ mostly under center today, I think it helps his footwork and puts him and the offense in an advantageous point regarding play action, it slows down the pressure.

[pmoon6]

He's a dickhead, but at least Dummy shows up after a win and continues his negative crap. The other Anti-Fans are probably in the closet crying because the Bills' won and impressively.

[Fixxxer]

He's a dickhead, but at least Dummy shows up after a win and continues his negative crap. The other Anti-Fans are probably in the closet crying because the Bills' won and impressively.

I think TD has a PH.D in douchebaggery, he's good.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Haha TD is a dickhead for sure. But a consistent one at least.

[TacklingDummy]

Haha TD is a dickhead for sure. But a consistent one at least.


This dickhead donated $100 to the Amber fund, did your Big head?

[THATHURMANATOR]

Way to self promote your charitable contributions.

My charitable side is none of anyone's business

[TacklingDummy]

Way to self promote your charitable contributions.

My charitable side is none of stones business

thanks, Im a dickhead with a heart.

So no, feel free to donate.


http://ambersaspirations.webs.com/mario-williams-jersey

[THATHURMANATOR]

thanks, Im a dickhead with a heart.

So no, feel free to donate.


http://ambersaspirations.webs.com/mario-williams-jersey
Can't argue with you here :hi5:

[Mr. Pink]

Hopefully today's performance by EJ was a wake up call that throwing the ball down field is okay and players can make good things happen.

Not only did he looked like he belonged on the field, he actually played a very good game.

[TacklingDummy]

Hopefully today's performance by EJ was a wake up call that throwing the ball down field is okay and players can make good things happen.

Not only did he looked like he belonged on the field, he actually played a very good game.

Hey look, Here's Dickheads left nut, where's my right nut?

[THATHURMANATOR]

I agree mr P.

I am not sold on ej yet but I feel better this week for sure

[Ingtar33]

fitzmagic, losman and edwards all gave us good looking wins. I'm encouraged by the fact he seemed like he could actually hit a WR in stride sometimes today, but still not thrilled.

that said that was easily his best game.

[Typ0]

fitzmagic, losman and edwards all gave us good looking wins. I'm encouraged by the fact he seemed like he could actually hit a WR in stride sometimes today, but still not thrilled.

that said that was easily his best game.

One things those guys NEVER did was turn it around during a game. Once they started to struggle they didn't have the mental fortitude to keep plugging away and work through it. This is one thing that has me pretty excited about EJ Manual--because we have seen him stink up the joint then pull it together and start to make positive things happen within a game.

[GvilleBills]

EJ played well today, much improved. Head into the bye on a positive.

[Mace]

After the game, the thread just made me think of this pic.

16706

[pmoon6]

After the game, the thread just made me think of this pic.

16706That look like Tackling Dummy in the clown outfit. He's asking the officer that since he has him in the bent over position could he please do him the honor of one last butt **** before he goes to jail.

Oh wait.....

[Raptor]

Classic EJ tease game. Did the same thing at FSU and like at FSU he will fold in a big spot

[pmoon6]

Classic EJ tease game. Did the same thing at FSU and like at FSU he will fold in a big spotYe of little faith.

[pmoon6]

Hey look, Here's Dickheads left nut, where's my right nut?Like I said, in the closet sulking. Combine our win with a Notre Dame loss last week and he's probably in the first level of Hell.

[trapezeus]

wasn't EJ 4-0 in bowl games?

just asking. i don't necessarily see this win as a coming of age game for ej, but he did play a lot better than the previous week. my issue is that he still seems to look at only one receiver. he almost had a pick six because of it. he needs to get comfortable dropping back and looking as well as throwing to spots. he is still throwing to open receivers only. this makes him susceptible to big hits because he has to stand there and wait.

good game on sunday, but he still has to get better.

[better days]

Classic EJ tease game. Did the same thing at FSU and like at FSU he will fold in a big spot

Fold in a big spot at FSU?

EJ WON a bowl game EVERY YEAR he played at FSU as well as the ACC Championship his Senior Year.

If that is FOLDING in a big spot, I want him to fold like that in the Super Bowl for the Bills.

[pmoon6]

wasn't EJ 4-0 in bowl games?

just asking. i don't necessarily see this win as a coming of age game for ej, but he did play a lot better than the previous week. my issue is that he still seems to look at only one receiver. he almost had a pick six because of it. he needs to get comfortable dropping back and looking as well as throwing to spots. he is still throwing to open receivers only. this makes him susceptible to big hits because he has to stand there and wait.

good game on sunday, but he still has to get better.Sure, but did you see Kaepernick yesterday and the last few games?

Rumors of his prowess seem to be greatly exaggerated.

[mysticsoto]

There's a specific thing here that hasn't been mentioned yet. EJ looked great in windy weather. For the type of weather we get here as the season progresses, we need someone that can handle throwing despite it being gusty. Fitz used to kill us around this time (even moreso than at the beginning of the season) b'cse he couldn't go pass 20 yds accurately and that would diminish with weather. We have a QB w/an arm, that has the capacity to make great decisions. And when he does, the game goes great. Let's hope that positive progression continues, b'cse physically, he has everything we want!!!

[Raptor]

Fold in a big spot at FSU?

EJ WON a bowl game EVERY YEAR he played at FSU as well as the ACC Championship his Senior Year.

If that is FOLDING in a big spot, I want him to fold like that in the Super Bowl for the Bills.

See perfect example of someone who never watched him play in college

See it he had he would know that its Florida States defense that allowed these wins despite EJ not becasue of him. Go top a FSU board and write this exact post and they will laugh at you and your notion that EJ was the reason for the wins that allowed him to play in the Bowl game and the wins themselves. They won despite him not becasue of him

[better days]

See perfect example of someone who never watched him play in college

See it he had he would know that its Florida States defense that allowed these wins despite EJ not becasue of him. Go top a FSU board and write this exact post and they will laugh at you and your notion that EJ was the reason for the wins that allowed him to play in the Bowl game and the wins themselves. They won despite him not becasue of him

LOL. Like the Bills won because of the defense & in spite of EJ against the Jets.

Football is a TEAM game, you don't win without a GOOD defense.

[Historian]

I'm sorry, but if you're looking for perfection in any rookie quarterback, you just don't understand the game.

What I liked, was that after a bad game, he shook it off, prepared well, and helped defeat a team coming off a bye.

He threw downfield...he protected the ball...he protected his body.

I mean, Jesus....can it be that a wee bit too much is expected of him?

Same goes for Smith. Still just a rookie, but handling it pretty well, despite the turnovers.

JUST MY OPINION:

Brady is getting older. Miami doesn't really have anybody. (although Tannehill is servicable at times)

OPINION******In the not too distant future, these are going to be the QBs that dominate the division.*****END OPINION

[better days]

I'm sorry, but if you're looking for perfection in any rookie quarterback, you just don't understand the game.

What I liked, was that after a bad game, he shook it off, prepared well, and helped defeat a team coming off a bye.

He threw downfield...he protected the ball...he protected his body.

I mean, Jesus....can it be that a wee bit too much is expected of him?

Same goes for Smith. Still just a rookie, but handling it pretty well, despite the turnovers.

JUST MY OPINION:

Brady is getting older. Miami doesn't really have anybody. (although Tannehill is servicable at times)

OPINION******In the not too distant future, these are going to be the QBs that dominate the division.*****END OPINION

I do think that Tannehill is better than servicable. He is developing into a GOOD QB, played a good game yesterday afternoon against the Chargers.

[kishoph]

wasn't EJ 4-0 in bowl games?

just asking. i don't necessarily see this win as a coming of age game for ej, but he did play a lot better than the previous week. my issue is that he still seems to look at only one receiver. he almost had a pick six because of it. he needs to get comfortable dropping back and looking as well as throwing to spots. he is still throwing to open receivers only. this makes him susceptible to big hits because he has to stand there and wait.

good game on sunday, but he still has to get better.

I haven't watched the game over yet, but I seem to remember the complete opposite on that play and the broadcast team even commented that "he looked over there too late" meaning that he didn't give himself time to see the corner. Also if he's only looking at one receiver how is he standing in there too long to find and only throw to open receivers ?

[justasportsfan]

THe biggest thing for me here is that EJ hopefully learned to trust his receivers not named Johnson or Woods. We have 2 speedy guys and he needs to make use of his arm.

On both deep throws to Graham and Goodwin, neither receivers were open. If he makes use of them, this will open things up for Woods, SJ and the running game.

[better days]

THe biggest thing for me here is that EJ hopefully learned to trust his receivers not named Johnson or Woods. We have 2 speedy guys and he needs to make use of his arm.

On both deep throws to Graham and Goodwin, neither receivers were open. If he makes use of them, this will open things up for Woods, SJ and the running game.

Or he could just throw the ball to Hogan. 7-11 is ALWAYS open.

[Lucidvizion]

I haven't watched the game over yet, but I seem to remember the complete opposite on that play and the broadcast team even commented that "he looked over there too late" meaning that he didn't give himself time to see the corner. Also if he's only looking at one receiver how is he standing in there too long to find and only throw to open receivers ?

He was locking on to his primary read a lot yesterday. I noticed it the most when he was taking his snaps from under center, but he got more comfortable as the game went on.

[justasportsfan]

7-11 is ALWAYS open.

but the store sometimes gets held up by thugs.

[better days]

but the store sometimes gets held up by thugs.

Especially at night. Maybe the Bills should not play him on Thursday night games.

[pmoon6]

I do think that Tannehill is better at servicing, it's why Jeff Ireland drafted him in the first place.Fixed it for ya.

[GvilleBills]

Or he could just throw the ball to Hogan. 7-11 is ALWAYS open.
Yesterday he looked like the guy who earned that moniker. He can be a sleeker David Nelson.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Yesterday he looked like the guy who earned that moniker. He can be a sleeker David Nelson.

The guy has 7 career catches and 3 of them came yesterday. If we draft another wideout next year, he doesn't make the roster.

[trapezeus]

I haven't watched the game over yet, but I seem to remember the complete opposite on that play and the broadcast team even commented that "he looked over there too late" meaning that he didn't give himself time to see the corner. Also if he's only looking at one receiver how is he standing in there too long to find and only throw to open receivers ?


if i remember the play, it was a 3 step drop and the criticism was that he wasn't really diagnosing the play fast enough. the bills also stopped going to that play afterwards.

i wouldn't have cared if it was picked or not. but those are things the coaching staff has to get him to see and adjust to.

in my mind, as long as he settles down in a game and throws with his feet on the ground, the game is slowing down for him. and that can only mean better things about decision making and accuracy.

because he hasn't been great, but he's been a game manager to some degree. everyone on this board wants a game decider. and that's the growth we need to see.

[better days]

The guy has 7 career catches and 3 of them came yesterday. If we draft another wideout next year, he doesn't make the roster.

If he keeps playing like he did yesterday, there will be no need to draft a WR this year.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

If he keeps playing like he did yesterday, there will be no need to draft a WR this year.

3 catches for 29 yards and what? We punch his ticket to Canton? He was a serviceable #3 for a game but calm down.

[better days]

3 catches for 29 yards and what? We punch his ticket to Canton? He was a serviceable #3 for a game but calm down.

You are the one that needs to calm down.

NOBODY said anything about Canton.

3 catches that MOVED the chains & kept drives alive.

If Hogan continues to play like that, he will be the big outlet WR the Bills need.

No need to draft another one like him.

Unless you can get Megatron 2.0 there is no need to draft a WR next year.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

You are the one that needs to calm down.

NOBODY said anything about Canton.

3 catches that MOVED the chains & kept drives alive.

If Hogan continues to play like that, he will be the big outlet WR the Bills need.

No need to draft another one like him.

Unless you can get Megatron 2.0 there is no need to draft a WR next year.

Our 5th/6th string wideout gaining 29 yards should not affect our draft plans one bit. If he completely went off then you might be on to something, but again, the guy has 7 career catches.

[jdaltroy5]

Our 5th/6th string wideout gaining 29 yards should not affect our draft plans one bit. If he completely went off then you might be on to something, but again, the guy has 7 career catches.
You need to calm down man.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

You need to calm down man.

THERE IS NOTHING MORE IMPORTANT THEN OUR SIXTH STRING WIDEOUT AND I WILL NOT BE SILENCED

[better days]

Our 5th/6th string wideout gaining 29 yards should not affect our draft plans one bit. If he completely went off then you might be on to something, but again, the guy has 7 career catches.

The point is Hogan is down at the bottom of the depth chart & when he is called on he produced.

When you have a 5th/6th string WR producing like Hogan did in that game, there is NO NEED to draft a receiver.

The Bills have NEEDS at a number of positions. Receiver is NOT one of them.

[BertSquirtgum]

Way to self promote your charitable contributions.

My charitable side is none of anyone's business

So, that's a no?

[Meathead]

Sure, but did you see Kaepernick yesterday and the last few games?

Rumors of his prowess seem to be greatly exaggerated.

true but his emergence was based on a fad play while ejs game is uber-traditional

seems like ejs game stands a much better chance of withstanding time and tape than kaps

[jdaltroy5]

The point is Hogan is down at the bottom of the depth chart & when he is called on he produced.

When you have a 5th/6th string WR producing like Hogan did in that game, there is NO NEED to draft a receiver.

The Bills have NEEDS at a number of positions. Receiver is NOT one of them.So if a player like Megatron or AJ Green is there in the first, you would pass on him because you have Chris Hogan?

[mysticsoto]

The point is Hogan is down at the bottom of the depth chart & when he is called on he produced.

When you have a 5th/6th string WR producing like Hogan did in that game, there is NO NEED to draft a receiver.

The Bills have NEEDS at a number of positions. Receiver is NOT one of them.

Somebody was just asking me this weekend (Friday) what positions we were in need the most. Before this past game, I quickly said WR. But the way everyone stepped up, and considering we'll get Stevie and Woods back healthy for next yr...I'm thinking maybe not. A DE opposite Mario Williams? More Secondary help? I'm not so sure anymore...we actually have talent at alot of positions. All we've been needing for a long time is a good QB and I think/hope that we've got that now. I might still go w/a top WR, but having a top DE opp Mario Williams would catapult our Def to a fantastic level. Dareus & Kyle are still forces on their own - we could have the best Dline of the league...

I'll have to think about that a little bit...

[justasportsfan]

Somebody was just asking me this weekend (Friday) what positions we were in need the most. Before this past game, I quickly said WR. But the way everyone stepped up, and considering we'll get Stevie and Woods back healthy for next yr...I'm thinking maybe not. A DE opposite Mario Williams? More Secondary help? I'm not so sure anymore...we actually have talent at alot of positions. All we've been needing for a long time is a good QB and I think/hope that we've got that now. I might still go w/a top WR, but having a top DE opp Mario Williams would catapult our Def to a fantastic level. Dareus & Kyle are still forces on their own - we could have the best Dline of the league...

I'll have to think about that a little bit...

OL OL OL. We need a wall that can dominate both pass protection and run game. We don't have that yet.

I'm pretty sure the bills will make an offer to Carrington.

[Fixxxer]

He was locking on to his primary read a lot yesterday. I noticed it the most when he was taking his snaps from under center, but he got more comfortable as the game went on.

On early throws he did locked on his primary target, I guess that is a way of getting your rookie QB on positive groove, easy completions with quick passes. Late in the game, he looked more comfortable standing in the pocket, like when he hit Chandler for a 31 yard scamper that finished the Jets hopes.

[Fixxxer]

OL OL OL. We need a wall that can dominate both pass protection and run game. We don't have that yet.

I'm pretty sure the bills will make an offer to Carrington.

OG, TE or OLB.

[justasportsfan]

OG, TE or OLB.

I like Lawson and Hughes . Maybe a ILB beside Kiko. Give the QB time to throw with a dominant OL . Chandler will get better the more he builds chemistry with the qb. Colby Fleener and Chndler have almost identical nos. The difference is that Fleener played with Luck in college and Colts, Chandler has musical chairs at qb.

[TigerJ]

It is interesting that Buffalo's most glaring holes on the roster at the moment seem to be positions where value is rarely found at the top of the draft. They could use a guard or two. They might be looking at a safety if there is no resolution to the Byrd impasse. Some think the Bills could use a more athletic TE. Sometimes teams will draft players at those positions in the top half of the first round, but that tends to be the exception. Trade down anyone?

[kishoph]

if i remember the play, it was a 3 step drop and the criticism was that he wasn't really diagnosing the play fast enough. the bills also stopped going to that play afterwards.



I'm not trying to be argumentative or whatever, but I just watched it a few times and it was a 5 step drop and all thru the drop he was looking forward, when he set is when he turned and threw, the criticism was "he didn't get his eyes around fast enough" (exact words). Whatever the reason was, I agree that it's something that the coaches have to make him aware of and hopefully he can correct it, which I feel both will happen.

One of the best things about having the Game Rewind is being able to go back and see plays that you're not quite sure about (I wasn't sure what happened on that play) or try and see where the mistakes were made.

[better days]

So if a player like Megatron or AJ Green is there in the first, you would pass on him because you have Chris Hogan?

No, I have already said, if Megaton 2.0 is there fine, draft him. But I would not waste a draft pick on an average to above average receiver.

[better days]

OL OL OL. We need a wall that can dominate both pass protection and run game. We don't have that yet.

I'm pretty sure the bills will make an offer to Carrington.

With a BETTER OL, both Fred & CJ would have had MUCH better numbers yesterday.

[GvilleBills]

The guy has 7 career catches and 3 of them came yesterday. If we draft another wideout next year, he doesn't make the roster.
Never said he would. I said he was getting open yesterday, and could be a sleeker David Nelson. He's WR5 right now at best.

[Mace]

That look like Tackling Dummy in the clown outfit. He's asking the officer that since he has him in the bent over position could he please do him the honor of one last butt **** before he goes to jail.

Oh wait.....

Every time it happens to me, they always say "Don't try anything funny, clown."

But then they always ask if you have concealed drugs or weapons. I loosen them up with "In the scarf, right pocket", which gets them to pull out the endless string of scarves. "Sorry, right pocket." (I have the pocket cut out and never wear underwear with my clown pants. Haha, it's always a hoot. I usually get tasered or pepper sprayed then. It's really the best way to get arrested because everyone in holding will be scared of you right off the bat and you can take their food and cigarettes and watch what you want on TV. Even the guards will pay you to leave them alone. Don't wipe off the clown makeup before you make bail though. If you time everything right it's a grand night out and pays for itself.

[mysticsoto]

It is interesting that Buffalo's most glaring holes on the roster at the moment seem to be positions where value is rarely found at the top of the draft. They could use a guard or two. They might be looking at a safety if there is no resolution to the Byrd impasse. Some think the Bills could use a more athletic TE. Sometimes teams will draft players at those positions in the top half of the first round, but that tends to be the exception. Trade down anyone?

I was just about to say the same thing. You can find great Guards in the 2nd and even 3rd rounds. I'm not sure that I'd want to spend a 1st on one. I still think a top DE opp Mario Williams will wreak havoc on other teams. On the other hand, should we instead be giving weapons to EJ with a top WR???

[better days]

I was just about to say the same thing. You can find great Guards in the 2nd and even 3rd rounds. I'm not sure that I'd want to spend a 1st on one. I still think a top DE opp Mario Williams will wreak havoc on other teams. On the other hand, should we instead be giving weapons to EJ with a top WR???

How often is a receiver like Megatron or Fitzgerald available in the draft?

If a guy like that is available, draft him in the first.

BUT I doubt ANYONE like that will be available or EVERYONE would KNOW about him already.

I would not waste a first rnd pick on a receiver that is just average to above average.

A receiver has to have Megatron/Fitzgerald skill to be worth a first rnd pick IMO.

[better days]

I would rather see the Bills draft OL or DL or CB before a receiver in the first rnd.

[pmoon6]

I would rather see the Bills draft OL or DL or CB before a receiver in the first rnd.Outside Linebacker.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

How often is a receiver like Megatron or Fitzgerald available in the draft?

If a guy like that is available, draft him in the first.

BUT I doubt ANYONE like that will be available or EVERYONE would KNOW about him already.

I would not waste a first rnd pick on a receiver that is just average to above average.

A receiver has to have Megatron/Fitzgerald skill to be worth a first rnd pick IMO.

Almost every year: AJ Green, Julio Jones, Dez Bryant, and Demaryius Thomas have all come out in the past four drafts. And that's ignoring guys with #1 talent who may still pull it together like Crabtree, Patterson, and Floyd

[better days]

Almost every year: AJ Green, Julio Jones, Dez Bryant, and Demaryius Thomas have all come out in the past four drafts. And that's ignoring guys with #1 talent who may still pull it together like Crabtree, Patterson, and Floyd

NONE of those receivers can compare to Megatron or Fitzgerald.

Above average, that is all.

Megatron & Fitz are HOF players.

NONE of the receivers you named are.

[pmoon6]

NONE of those receivers can compare to Megatron or Fitzgerald.

Above average, that is all.

Megatron & Fitz are HOF players.

NONE of the receivers you named are.You can't say that yet. Chris Carter was no where near HOF until he went to the Vikings.

[mysticsoto]

Outside Linebacker.

You may have something there. I believe 2014's WR crop is not as great. However, there are some outstanding LBs! Barr or Mack maybe? Or do we entertain trading down and grabbing a top Guard like Cyril Richardson???

[IlluminatusUIUC]

NONE of those receivers can compare to Megatron or Fitzgerald.

Above average, that is all.

Megatron & Fitz are HOF players.

NONE of the receivers you named are.

They've been in the league for less than four seasons. You want them to build a HOF career in three years? LMAO "above average." All four of the guys I mentioned are top 10 wideouts right now and all would have been pro bowlers last year if not for the completely absurd selection of Victor Cruz over Dez Bryant.

AJ Green is blowing Fitzgerald's doors off by this point in their careers.

[TacklingDummy]

How often is a receiver like Megatron or Fitzgerald available in the draft?

If a guy like that is available, draft him in the first.

.AJ Green

[pmoon6]

I was just about to say the same thing. You can find great Guards in the 2nd and even 3rd rounds. I'm not sure that I'd want to spend a 1st on one. I still think a top DE opp Mario Williams will wreak havoc on other teams. On the other hand, should we instead be giving weapons to EJ with a top WR???I'm usually a defense first guy and we are weak on the left side with Moats/Bradham. The team is OK in the secondary and the DL. A top OLB could turn this defense into a very good one in terms of edge protection and additional pass rush. A fast physical backer can also give us something when having to cover good TEs.

My priorities would be that, OL, TE and then maybe another corner.

[WagonCircler]

I'm usually a defense first guy and we are weak on the left side with Moats/Bradham. The team is OK in the secondary and the DL. A top OLB could turn this defense into a very good one in terms of edge protection and additional pass rush. A fast physical backer can also give us something when having to cover good TEs.

My priorities would be that, OL, TE and then maybe another corner.

I'm with you on the Outside LB. This Defense is right on the cusp of being a serious pass rushing threat regardless of the opponent. An additional pass rusher would bump the entire Defense up a level.

[Meathead]

had bradham even played this year? never hear his name called. even moats is making enough plays to get noticed once in a while, i cant even remember bradham being on the field

[pmoon6]

had bradham even played this year? never hear his name called. even moats is making enough plays to get noticed once in a while, i cant even remember bradham being on the fieldHe's played and it tells you something when you don't hear a linebacker's name called. I think they are mostly rotating Moats, Lawson and Jerry Hughes depending on situation, now.

[Mace]

had bradham even played this year? never hear his name called. even moats is making enough plays to get noticed once in a while, i cant even remember bradham being on the field

I find it hard to believe you haven't noticed his 2.2727272727272727272727272727273 tackles per game. He did 1.3636363636363636363636363636364 of them all by himself even, and these are pure stats, I looked up and calculated using Windows calculator. Start paying attention, Meat.

[pmoon6]

I find it hard to believe you haven't noticed his 2.2727272727272727272727272727273 tackles per game. He did 1.3636363636363636363636363636364 of them all by himself even, and these are pure stats, I looked up and calculated using Windows calculator. Start paying attention, Meat.Hmmm. A guy better at mathematics than me. Must have gone to one of those fancy school like RPI or Cal Poly.

[BertSquirtgum]

Bills need left guard and right tackle before they need anything on defense.

[better days]

had bradham even played this year? never hear his name called. even moats is making enough plays to get noticed once in a while, i cant even remember bradham being on the field

I don't know what happened to Bradham, but Moats has really stepped up his game.

[justasportsfan]

Die thread ! Die !

Oh wait....

[Mace]

Hmmm. A guy better at mathematics than me. Must have gone to one of those fancy school like RPI or Cal Poly.

State University of D'Bonadaecairebertvilleisius & Stratton. It was in a storefront near the Broadway Market for a few weeks around 1980 I think though my degree is dated 1234. Still have the personal business reference I earned from the President of the University, Peter Paulenmary. I couldn't be bothered with wasting 4 years at one of those highbrow colleges that make you take a lot of classes.

[pmoon6]

State University of D'Bonadaecairebertvilleisius & Stratton. It was in a storefront near the Broadway Market for a few weeks around 1980 I think though my degree is dated 1234. Still have the personal business reference I earned from the President of the University, Peter Paulenmary. I couldn't be bothered with wasting 4 years at one of those highbrow colleges that make you take a lot of classes.Too funny. At least to a WNYer. Maybe they should have a version of "The Tonight Show" in Buffalo. Vincent Gallo could be the MC and you could be one of the writers.

[JoeMama]

Despite my temper tantrum in week 10 about how awful EJ Manuel was, I was floored by well he played in week 11.

Both his top receivers were out.

He was up against a fantastic defense.

The weather was a nightmare.

You figure it's game over before it begins.

But naw, he goes out there and plays like a champ. The wind, the cold, the matchup, etc, he didn't care about any of that. He played like a winner.

[GvilleBills]

Despite my temper tantrum in week 10 about how awful EJ Manuel was, I was floored by well he played in week 11.

Both his top receivers were out.

He was up against a fantastic defense.

The weather was a nightmare.

You figure it's game over before it begins.

But naw, he goes out there and plays like a champ. The wind, the cold, the matchup, etc, he didn't care about any of that. He played like a winner.

Agree on everything. My concerns with EJ are his testicular fortitude in the face of pressure. Graham TD was a wart, thank god the DB was clueless. For the most part, the OL protected their asses off, and EJ showed a glimpse of his future. He made some mistakes, but I'd never bang on the kid after that kind of performance. Reading through 4-5 progressions will come in time, not realistic to expect that of him just yet.
If EJ continues to progress in a clean pocket, building the next Great Wall in front of him should be the #1 priority.
One thing we can be sure of, EJ is working his ass off to continue his progress.

[better days]

Agree on everything. My concerns with EJ are his testicular fortitude in the face of pressure. Graham TD was a wart, thank god the DB was clueless. For the most part, the OL protected their asses off, and EJ showed a glimpse of his future. He made some mistakes, but I'd never bang on the kid after that kind of performance. Reading through 4-5 progressions will come in time, not realistic to expect that of him just yet.
If EJ continues to progress in a clean pocket, building the next Great Wall in front of him should be the #1 priority.
One thing we can be sure of, EJ is working his ass off to continue his progress.

Well, Marrone has said EJ is already doing a good job of reading through his progressions & EJ threw the ball to Fred against the Jets once when Fred was the #5 target.

[GvilleBills]

Well, Marrone has said EJ is already doing a good job of reading through his progressions & EJ threw the ball to Fred against the Jets once when Fred was the #5 target.

I saw those quotes. I also saw the breakdown of his throws. If Fred was option 5, EJ skipped 2-4 IMO. Granted, I was watching from the couch. So I defer to Marrone.

[better days]

I saw those quotes. I also saw the breakdown of his throws. If Fred was option 5, EJ skipped 2-4 IMO. Granted, I was watching from the couch. So I defer to Marrone.

Well, I heard Marrone say that on WGR. Marrone is a no BS type of guy.

Marrone also said EJ did not play well in the Steelers game. He did not try to sugar coat that at all.

If Marrone says something about the Bills, you can believe it is the truth as he sees it.

[GvilleBills]

Well, I heard Marrone say that on WGR. Marrone is a no BS type of guy.

Marrone also said EJ did not play well in the Steelers game. He did not try to sugar coat that at all.

If Marrone says something about the Bills, you can believe it is the truth as he sees it.
I believe he's a straight shooter, but if he said EJ played well in the Pitt game he'd be rushed to the psych ward.

I'll repeat what I typed in the post you quoted, I defer to the coach.

[TacklingDummy]

Bills need left guard and right tackle before they need anything on defense.
Bills need a franchise QB.
Until then all other needs don't mean shLt.

[JCBills]

Bills need a franchise QB.
Until then all other needs don't mean shLt.

Again, because nobody has ever improved, right?

[Fletch]

Again, because nobody has ever improved, right?

The odds are against him becoming that franchise QB. He's been very slow in progressing, this past game was his only game that showed significant improvement. If in the next two or three games he plays well there may be something to the notion that he's the one. If not though, and if he regresses, we have to start wondering if reaching to draft him was really a good choice. Especially since it limits us in this forthcoming Draft that's loaded with legitimate 1st round QB talent.

This isn't brain science. Well, for some, usually those in positions of power in this organization it might be that difficult, but for more intelligent people it isn't.

[colin]

Some ol help and a bit of talent in the form of a big skilled wr are our biggest needs. That said, a stud olb could put this d into the stratosphere. Maybe that kid from UB, this could be a 55+ sack team and if we keep Byrd you just know that would lead to a couple dozen turnovers as well.

[better days]

The odds are against him becoming that franchise QB. He's been very slow in progressing, this past game was his only game that showed significant improvement. If in the next two or three games he plays well there may be something to the notion that he's the one. If not though, and if he regresses, we have to start wondering if reaching to draft him was really a good choice. Especially since it limits us in this forthcoming Draft that's loaded with legitimate 1st round QB talent.

This isn't brain science. Well, for some, usually those in positions of power in this organization it might be that difficult, but for more intelligent people it isn't.


Yeah, because EJ should have won 10 games by now, injuries be damned.

[WagonCircler]

Yeah, because EJ should have won 10 games by now, injuries be damned.

Actually, two knee injuries in his rookie year is all the more reason the Bills should be drafting a QB this year.

I'm not saying EJ can't be a good NFL QB, but I don't believe he'll ever be a great one. But when you factor in the injuries, if they continue, and the Bills would be insane to rely on walk-ons like Thad and Tuel.

[better days]

Actually, two knee injuries in his rookie year is all the more reason the Bills should be drafting a QB this year.

I'm not saying EJ can't be a good NFL QB, but I don't believe he'll ever be a great one. But when you factor in the injuries, if they continue, and the Bills would be insane to rely on walk-ons like Thad and Tuel.

I am not against drafting a QB. BUT Matt Stafford, the Lions QB is damn good & he was injured his first two years.

[Bangarang]

Bills need a franchise QB.
Until then all other needs don't mean shLt.
So you can't upgrade the offensive line to better protect the guy you hope is the franchise QB?

What if I told you not having a good line is the reason why David Carr's career was ruined?

[Mace]

What if I told you not having a good line is the reason why David Carr's career was ruined?

I'd probably laugh. David Carr is the duracel Trent Edwards. My brother was a Houston Texans fan and said about everything I did about Trent Edwards.

If you even look at their records, Carr is one of the few with a worse yards per attempt over longer time than Edwards, and less yards per game. Their TD and INT percentages are nearly identical. Both their careers were ruined because they weren't any good.

[JoeMama]

Actually, two knee injuries in his rookie year is all the more reason the Bills should be drafting a QB this year.

I'm not saying EJ can't be a good NFL QB, but I don't believe he'll ever be a great one. But when you factor in the injuries, if they continue, and the Bills would be insane to rely on walk-ons like Thad and Tuel.

I know you mean that earnestly because EJ hasn't gotten the TeaCup treatment yet.

I used to get a kick out of those Trent Edwards rants.

If there's a Bill you've ever hated more than that guy, I'd like to know who.

[Mace]

I know you mean that earnestly because EJ hasn't gotten the TeaCup treatment yet.

I used to get a kick out of those Trent Edwards rants.

If there's a Bill you've ever hated more than that guy, I'd like to know who.

That raging was on par with Victor7 vs. Jauron at a different board. Legendary stuff.

[TacklingDummy]

I used to get a kick out of those Trent Edwards rants.

If there's a Bill you've ever hated more than that guy, I'd like to know who.
Rob Johnson
JP Losman
Arron Maybin
Marshawn "under achieving, hit an run driving" Lynch
EJ Manuel the QB.
Marcel Dareus because of all the picks drafted after him and his over rated by Bills fans play.

[JoeMama]

Rob Johnson
JP Losman
Arron Maybin
Marshawn "under achieving, hit an run driving" Lynch
EJ Manuel the QB.
Marcel Dareus because of all the picks drafted after him and his over rated by Bills fans play.

I didn't ask you.

I already know villain number one on your list.

Tom Donahoe.

Come on man, 1999-2001 AOL forums.

[TacklingDummy]

I didn't ask you.

I already know villain number one on your list.

Tom Donahoe.

Come on man, 1999-2001 AOL forums.
Lol, thanks man, I forgot about him.

[JoeMama]

That raging was on par with Victor7 vs. Jauron at a different board. Legendary stuff.

Yeah, I remember it well.

I was his equivalent about Chan Gailey.

I made a thread once where I called every person who liked the hire stupid.

It didn't go over well. Maybe the most groaned thread of all time.

But I made my decision and I stand by it.