Not Much Hope for the Future

[Jan Reimers]

As I watched another in a long line of Bills' debacles, I tried to look optimistically to the future. But here is what I came up with:

- Fred Jackson, one of our very best players, is the oldest running back in the league, and probably has only a year or two left.

- CJ Spiller is too injury prone, slightly built, and inconsistent to be an every down running back in this league.

- Stevie Johnson would be a number 2 receiver with some teams, and a number 3 with others. The rest of our receiving corps is unproven - or worse - proven to be career backups.

- EJ may or not be our OB of the future. Yesterday made me very concerned about his being the answer.

- Chandler is a nonentity at TE. Perhaps the rookie will step up.

- The O-line is adequate, but Pears and Legursky should be replaced. Levitre should still be here.

- The D-line is OK, but K.Williams is getting older, M. Williams is wildly inconsistent, and Dareus is well - getting better, I think.

- Kiko is great, but who knows if we will keep him beyond his rookie contract. We have a way of letting the really good ones walk, when they have the audacity to want to be paid. The rest of the LBs are situational guys.

- The D-backs are a mixed bag. Gilmore shows some good signs, Byrd - our best - will most likely leave, and the rest are adequate NFL players.

I simply don't see a lot of rising stars or young veterans that will make us a power in this league. And the coaching staff seems to have taken a step back from it's balls-to-the-wall hurry up offense and it'd aggressive, blitzing defense.

Yesterday's game put me to sleep, and I see many more Bills' naps in my future.

[EDS]

This team could be very competitive, meaning a real playoff contender, if Manuel develops into a bona fide NFL borderline all-star (a Tony Romo, for example). He needs to be able to carry the team for a few games at a time, and if the team is going to win a Super Bowl, he will need to be able to string together 8-10 games of brilliance (see, e.g., Joe Facco and Eli Manning). Outside of that, there is little hope I agree.

No pressure EJ.

[Skooby]

This team could be very competitive, meaning a real playoff contender, if Manuel develops into a bona fide NFL borderline all-star (a Tony Romo, for example). He needs to be able to carry the team for a few games at a time, and if the team is going to win a Super Bowl, he will need to be able to string together 8-10 games of brilliance (see, e.g., Joe Facco and Eli Manning). Outside of that, there is little hope I agree.

No pressure EJ.

The team has been inept for 14 years straight, expecting anything different is pure old fashion communism.

[better days]

As I watched another in a long line of Bills' debacles, I tried to look optimistically to the future. But here is what I came up with:

- Fred Jackson, one of our very best players, is the oldest running back in the league, and probably has only a year or two left.

- CJ Spiller is too injury prone, slightly built, and inconsistent to be an every down running back in this league.

- Stevie Johnson would be a number 2 receiver with some teams, and a number 3 with others. The rest of our receiving corps is unproven - or worse - proven to be career backups.

- EJ may or not be our OB of the future. Yesterday made me very concerned about his being the answer.

- Chandler is a nonentity at TE. Perhaps the rookie will step up.

- The O-line is adequate, but Pears and Legursky should be replaced. Levitre should still be here.

- The D-line is OK, but K.Williams is getting older, M. Williams is wildly inconsistent, and Dareus is well - getting better, I think.

- Kiko is great, but who knows if we will keep him beyond his rookie contract. We have a way of letting the really good ones walk, when they have the audacity to want to be paid. The rest of the LBs are situational guys.

- The D-backs are a mixed bag. Gilmore shows some good signs, Byrd - our best - will most likely leave, and the rest are adequate NFL players.

I simply don't see a lot of rising stars or young veterans that will make us a power in this league. And the coaching staff seems to have taken a step back from it's balls-to-the-wall hurry up offense and it'd aggressive, blitzing defense.

Yesterday's game put me to sleep, and I see many more Bills' naps in my future.

- On WHAT TEAMS would Stevie be the # 3 receiver? NAME THEM.

- The Bills have some rising STARS at the WR position. Give them another year.

- Chandler is a weapon that for some reason Hackett did not use. He should have been the red zone target.

[Pinkerton Security]

Great thread!! Woohoo!

[OLDSRIP]

Until we get good qb play consistently nothing else matters.
With the parity in the NFL right now the Bills would be very competitive with a decent qb.

[Uncle Jesse]

Until we get good qb play consistently nothing else matters.
With the parity in the NFL right now the Bills would be very competitive with a decent qb.

Exactly, and people squawk at the idea of drafting another one this spring. Do it every year for all I care, the salary isn't an issue anymore, and we'll be nothing without one....

[TacklingDummy]

By the time the Bills are good I won't give a frack about football anymore.

[OpIv37]

- On WHAT TEAMS would Stevie be the # 3 receiver? NAME THEM.

- The Bills have some rising STARS at the WR position. Give them another year.

- Chandler is a weapon that for some reason Hackett did not use. He should have been the red zone target.

Give them another year? Like we did for Graham, Easley, Jones, Nelson, Hardy.....

[OpIv37]

I do have to say that yesterday was a huge disappointment. Before that game, I was seeing signs of life and was actuLly cautiously optimistic about the team's direction, but the Steelers game was a huge disappointment.

The D was passable but several stars had terrible efforts, particularly Mario and Gilmore.

The O was completely out of sync and the coaches seemed clueless as to what to do about it. And Manuel was ****ing horrific. He looked clueless out there.

The poor coaching and QB play and lopsided TOP were too reminiscint of the garbage teams of the pas few years.

[EDS]

- On WHAT TEAMS would Stevie be the # 3 receiver? NAME THEM.



Giants (Cruz, Nicks)
Broncos (Thomas, Decker, Welker)
Packers (Nelson, Cobb)
Eagles (Jackson, Maclin)
Falcons (Jones, White)

That being said, I think Stevie is at worst a solid #2.

[chris66]

This team is Jekyll and Hide depending if they are at home or on the road. With whoring out a game to Toronto. That doesnt bode well for the rest of the season

[Mr. Pink]

Give them another year? Like we did for Graham, Easley, Jones, Nelson, Hardy.....

Goodwin with a real QB or with a QB who's at the minimum willing to throw down field would be an asset. Look at what he did with Tuel against KC. He literally blew by both the safety and corner. They should throw the ball down field to him a couple times a game, every game. Of course, they need a QB who's actually willing to throw the ball deep.

Sadly, Goodwin would probably put up Lee Evans numbers if he had JP Losman as his QB.

[stuckincincy]

By the time the Bills are good I won't give a frack about football anymore.

Parity.

In the words of the old musical group, Rush:

"The Trees

There is unrest in the forest,
There is trouble with the trees,
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas.

The trouble with the maples,
(And they're quite convinced they're right)
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light.
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made.
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade.

There is trouble in the Forest,
And the Creatures all have fled,
As the Maples scream oppression,
And the Oaks just shake their heads.

So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights.
"These oaks are just too greedy;
We will make them give us light."
Now there's no more oak oppression,
For they passed a noble law,
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw."


Parity. Let not your heart be troubled. :zipit:

[TacklingDummy]

Sadly, Goodwin would probably put up Lee Evans numbers if he had JP Losman as his QB.JP was entertainingly sucky, EJ just sucks.

[Mr. Pink]

JP was entertaining sucky, EJ just sucks.

Agree 100%

[Jan Reimers]

Giants (Cruz, Nicks)
Broncos (Thomas, Decker, Welker)
Packers (Nelson, Cobb)
Eagles (Jackson, Maclin)
Falcons (Jones, White)

That being said, I think Stevie is at worst a solid #2.
I would add the Bears, with Marshall and Jeffery, and the Colts with a healthy Wayne and Hilton.

[trapezeus]

can't disagree with the OP. the biggest issue is that the QB play has not been accurate. this causes 3 and outs routinely. it makes it hard to rely on a running game when others know passes aren't going to be completed. and the ones that actually are on target get dropped. We have a WR corp that is very under sized. one of them is fine, but woods, graham and goodwin? that's the recipe for success?

-they need a legit large 6'4 beast type receiver.
-i'll give EJ a pass for last week with little practice. But it looked similiar to other games. He is not throwing down the field and he seems to be locking onto receivers from the get go. frankly i'm kind of surprised he hasn't had the 4 INT game.
- they need better line play and sadly one more RB for FJ and CJ. FJ is old, CJ is easily injured. Tashard choice is not the guy.
-d was not bad against pitt. There were bad plays, but for watching as many 3 and outs as they did, they kept the bills in the game until it was obvious the offense wasn't going to do anything of consequence. and even then they still made a lot of stops. I think they need more front 7 selections. the secondary is fine as is. They've operated on fumes, they've operated at their ideal starting line up. There isn't a lot of change. the front 7 pressure matters, and the more talent they have there, the more chance they can become a dominant game changing d.

-Powell must be pissed. He has two bad games and he gets cut. EJ has a couple duds, and he's still the starter. #apunterslife

[OpIv37]

My biggest frustration is the coaching staff. Pitt was stacking the box against the run and shirt pass all day but the Bills never even challenged downfield until it was too late. Maybe Manuel could handle it and maybe he couldn't, but doing the same thing that clearly wasn't working is asinine.

[Historian]

Other than Pittsburgh, we have been in every game this year.

I hate watching the Bills beat themselves. KC and Cleveland were winnable games.

I said it after the draft....EJ was a very inposing physical specimen, but would take a lot of work. When the Bills decide to get cute, and think they're smarter than the rest of the league, watch out, because there is a reason they have been in the dumper for 13 seasons.

I think EJ was a reach, as was Whitner, and a whole host of #1 picks (2nds too) where conventional wisdom says you pick the best player out there, and the Bills know better.

OTOH, one more win, and they reach my prediction total for the year.

[Historian]

Kinda makes you long for "the good old days" under Jauron, doesn't it?

:ill:

[trapezeus]

Kinda makes you long for "the good old days" under Jauron, doesn't it?

:ill:

Never. the jauron team were 3-13 teams that over acheived each year. they hit their ceiling every year but his last. it's exhausting to have that.

Marrone and Co suck this year, but they've done it with less stop gaps than gailey did last year. So i think you are going to see marrone's ceiling be higher. unfortunately, the front office is routinely affected by financial constraints.

[Jan Reimers]

Kinda makes you long for "the good old days" under Jauron, doesn't it?

:ill:
I'm not quite that desperate, but I'm getting mighty tired of not seeing any consistent signs of progress.

[justasportsfan]

I can't blame Stevie or Chandler. They have a crappy qb. They were so much better with Fitz and Fitz was nothing more than a back up

[DraftBoy]

- On WHAT TEAMS would Stevie be the # 3 receiver? NAME THEM.

Giants, Falcons, Broncos (he'd be #4 there), Cowboys, Packers (again likely 4), Seahawks, Colts, Eagles, and possibly the Cardinals with the insurgence of Micheal Floyd.

[The Jokeman]

Giants (Cruz, Nicks)
Broncos (Thomas, Decker, Welker)
Packers (Nelson, Cobb)
Eagles (Jackson, Maclin)
Falcons (Jones, White)

The bolded guys are UFA after this season, so maybe we can sign one of them and improve our WRs?

[justasportsfan]

Giants, Falcons, Broncos (he'd be #4 there), Cowboys, Packers (again likely 4), Seahawks, Colts, Eagles, and possibly the Cardinals with the insurgence of Micheal Floyd.

we don't know how much better Stevie could be with better qb's. He's had 3 1000 yard season with Fitz . Could his style of play benefited from better qb's? We don't know.

[Jan Reimers]

we don't know how much better Stevie could be with better qb's. He's had 3 1000 yard season with Fitz . Could his style of play benefited from better qb's? We don't know.
You may be right, justa, but he still has inconsistent hands and average speed.

[DraftBoy]

we don't know how much better Stevie could be with better qb's. He's had 3 100 yard season with Fitz .

Ok and....? None of that has to do with statistics.

A lot of those guys are good without a great QB, Eagles with Vick/Foles, Cowboys with Romo, Cardinals with Palmer. Does a good QB help? Absolutely but if you need a good QB to be good yourself well then you're not as talented as you think you are.

[Mr. Pink]

we don't know how much better Stevie could be with better qb's. He's had 3 1000 yard season with Fitz . Could his style of play benefited from better qb's? We don't know.

I dunno how much better you expect a guy to be than 80 catches for 1000 yards on a consistent basis.

Doesn't matter who the QB is, there's only so many plays that will go your way.

Realistically, with Stevie's style of play, he could pick up another dozen catches and 150 yards I guess.

However when you upgrade the QB or the other WRs balls get distributed among them too so that could negate those dozen catches.

[justasportsfan]

Ok and....? None of that has to do with statistics.

A lot of those guys are good without a great QB, Eagles with Vick/Foles, Cowboys with Romo, Cardinals with Palmer. Does a good QB help? Absolutely but if you need a good QB to be good yourself well then you're not as talented as you think you are.
Stevie did NOT need a good qb to be good. He was good with Fitz.

It can go both ways. Stevie could be good or bad with different qb's but we'll never know. I would lean on thinking that even Calvin Johnson would suck here with EJ NOT willing to throw the ball.

[DraftBoy]

Stevie did NOT need a good qb to be good. He was good with Fitz.

It can go both ways. Stevie could be good or bad with different qb's but we'll never know. I would lean on thinking that even Calvin Johnson would suck here with EJ NOT willing to throw the ball.

You haven't seen much of Matthew Stafford throwing it to him have you?

[justasportsfan]

I dunno how much better you expect a guy to be than 80 catches for 1000 yards on a consistent basis.

Doesn't matter who the QB is, there's only so many plays that will go your way.

Realistically, with Stevie's style of play, he could pick up another dozen catches and 150 yards I guess.

However when you upgrade the QB or the other WRs balls get distributed among them too so that could negate those dozen catches.

Could he have been better with a better qb? Maybe ,maybe not but it isn't far fetched to think that a qb makes a wr better. For those who think that he could be better with a better qb is not far off than those who think he could also be a 3rd string on a different team. BOTH sides have a point is my point.

- - - Updated - - -


You haven't seen much of Matthew Stafford throwing it to him have you?
I'll take Stafford over EJ and I'm almost sure than Stevie would also feel the same right now.

[Meathead]

Parity.

In the words of the old musical group, Rush:

"The Trees

There is unrest in the forest,
There is trouble with the trees,
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas.

The trouble with the maples,
(And they're quite convinced they're right)
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light.
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made.
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade.

There is trouble in the Forest,
And the Creatures all have fled,
As the Maples scream oppression,
And the Oaks just shake their heads.

So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights.
"These oaks are just too greedy;
We will make them give us light."
Now there's no more oak oppression,
For they passed a noble law,
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw."


Parity. Let not your heart be troubled. :zipit:

i have an incredible urge to find my eight tracks and get a bottle of maddog 2020

[Mr. Pink]

Could he have been better with a better qb? Maybe ,maybe not but it isn't far fetched to think that a qb makes a wr better. For those who think that he could be better with a better qb is not far off than those who think he could also be a 3rd string on a different team. BOTH sides have a point is my point.



Lee Evans should dispel the myth that a receiver once he goes to a good team automatically gets better.

When you're the main option or the only option to be more honest, seeing 2 years ago Stevie basically was the only option, you're gonna have inflated stats as more balls will go your way.

[justasportsfan]

Lee Evans should dispel the myth that a receiver once he goes to a good team automatically gets better.

When you're the main option or the only option to be more honest, seeing 2 years ago Stevie basically was the only option, you're gonna have inflated stats as more balls will go your way.
for every Lee Evans, there's a Larry Fitzgerald to counter your argument. His nos. have suffered due to having a bad qb.

How do you think LF will do here with EJ throwing to him? Keep in mind LF made a living fighting for catches even when he's covered. Do you think EJ would throw to him ?

[justasportsfan]

You may be right, justa, but he still has inconsistent hands and average speed.

I agree. Thats why I'm saying there's no way of knowing because he hasn't had an above average qb since he's been here. I'm not saying he'll be better or worse but he could go either ways.

[Mr. Pink]

for every Lee Evans, there's a Larry Fitzgerald to counter your argument. His nos. have suffered due to having a bad qb.

How do you think LF will do here with EJ throwing to him?

LF would have a little better numbers than Stevie if you straight swapped them out as LF has been healthy.

LF had a down year last year obviously but even with Skelton/Kolb QBing in 2011 he had 80 catches for 1400 yards.

In 2010 with Skelton, Max Hall and Derek Anderson he had 90 catches for 1137 yards.

In 2009 with Warner, he had 97 catches for 1092 yards.

Oddly enough this year, Stevie would be on pace for 75 catches for 850 yards if he didn't miss another game in a season where he's been oft injured and visibly not even close to 100%.

[justasportsfan]

LF would have a little better numbers than Stevie if you straight swapped them out as LF has been healthy..with EJ throwing to him? Maybe ,maybe not. He'd be diving for air because the ball with be with EJ .


LF had a down year last year obviously but even with Skelton/Kolb QBing in 2011 he had 80 catches for 1400 yards.

. Stevie had better numbers than LF last year with Fitz. So you do admit that the problem between 2012 and 2013 for LF was the qb ?



In 2010 with Skelton, Max Hall and Derek Anderson he had 90 catches for 1137 yards. Stevei had 82 catches 1073 yds 10 tds with Fitz/Trent


In 2009 with Warner, he had 97 catches for 1092 yards.. He's never had a Kurt Warner throwing to him


Oddly enough this year, Stevie would be on pace for 75 catches for 850 yards if he didn't miss another game in a season where he's been oft injured and visibly not even close to 100%.. and EJ has nothing to do with that?

You seem to be arguing with yourself when you talk down EJ yet act like EJ has nothing to do with Stevie's nos.

All you did was make my point that a QB affects a receivers performance.

Again, I'm not saying Stevie would be great with another qb , but he definitely didn't have the help of having an above average qb his entire carreer. I'm not saying either that Stevie is in LF's class. All I did was point out that even LF's performance is affected by the qb position.

[better days]

Giants, Falcons, Broncos (he'd be #4 there), Cowboys, Packers (again likely 4), Seahawks, Colts, Eagles, and possibly the Cardinals with the insurgence of Micheal Floyd.

You are CRAZY.

[Mr. Pink]

with EJ throwing to him? Maybe ,maybe not.
Stevie had better numbers than LF last year.

Stevei had 82 catches 1073 yds 10 tds with Fitz/Trent

He's never had a Kurt Warner throwing to him

and EJ has nothing to do with that?

You seem to be arguing with yourself when you talk down EJ yet act like EJ has nothing to do with Stevie's nos.

All you did was make my point that a QB affects a receivers performance.

Oddly enough this year, Stevie would be on pace for 75 catches for 850 yards if he didn't miss another game in a season where he's been oft injured and visibly not even close to 100%.

He's hurt, has been all year so that effects his play. He was still getting targets and the yards are down because yes, EJ refuses to throw down field. But the overall catches would be about the same for him this year as last. 79 last year. He isn't seeing the ball any less, he's just seeing the ball closer to the LOS. His YPC average is down by almost 2 yards.

It doesn't matter the QB, guys who are "good" or better than the other options will still get targets.

Justin Blackmon had 29 catches in 4 games for a Jag team with atrocious QB play.

Vincent Jackson has 46 catches for 662 yards on a terrible Bucs team with below average overall QB play.

Greg Jennings has 34 catches for 410 yards with a plethora of crap in Minnesota which isn't too far off what he was doing in GB with Rodgers.

Andre Johnson has 62 catches for 850 yards on a terrible Texan team.

Are you getting my point yet?

[justasportsfan]

He's hurt, has been all year so that effects his play. He was still getting targets and the yards are down because yes, EJ refuses to throw down field. But the overall catches would be about the same for him this year as last. 79 last year. He isn't seeing the ball any less, he's just seeing the ball closer to the LOS. His YPC average is down by almost 2 yards.

It doesn't matter the QB, guys who are "good" or better than the other options will still get targets.

Justin Blackmon had 29 catches in 4 games for a Jag team with atrocious QB play.

Vincent Jackson has 46 catches for 662 yards on a terrible Bucs team with below average overall QB play.

Greg Jennings has 34 catches for 410 yards with a plethora of crap in Minnesota which isn't too far off what he was doing in GB with Rodgers.

Andre Johnson has 62 catches for 850 yards on a terrible Texan team.

Are you getting my point yet? Yes I am getting your point, Stevie just like the other receivers would have better nos. if the qbs name wasn't anyone other than EJ.



Lets take SJ's 2 games with Thad at qb. I know it's not enough data but he would have had over 1000 yds and 8 tds for the season .

I never said he was in Andre Johnson class but as crappy as the texans are at qb, they are still throwing the ball.