Disgraceful.

[ServoBillieves]

That's the word for this team and it's coaching staff.

How... in all honesty how with 2 star running backs, a great #1 receiver, 2 rookies proving their worth, a steady O-Line, and you can't make your below-average rookie quarterback work? You can't put the game in his hands, but you can give it to your 2nd and 3rd backups? Why not try to win when you have seen Thad provide? This team does not want to win this year.

You go up against a Steelers team that is one foot in the grave, and you see your ungodly sad schedule coming up, and 9-7 doesn't seem out of reach... but the coaches think "hey, let's babysit this menial specimen so we can look good in a few years." and not try. It really looked like they didn't even try. No hurry up, CJ comes in for his 1 play of the drive, they have a chance to change personnel, it goes nowhere, and a punt with Moorman who looked horrid. This team does not want to win this year.

Defensively, we have a top 3 line. With Williams, Williams, and Carrington, that is a first rank. Branch and Dareus just make it that much better, but they can't win the game for you. In comes Kiko, Nigel, and Manny. As stated in another thread, Kiko and Manny are having great seasons. Nigel... meh. Then you back up in to the atrocious secondary and ask where Byrd is, see that Aaron is having a great year, and Gilmore and McKelvin are making up for lost ground while Brooks is invisible and Robey and Leonhard have been huge surprises. Take a look at the disgraceful secondary lapses and tell me that you would put in the personnel that the Bills staff did and it wouldn't have gone MUCH better if the team wanted to win. This team does not want to win this year.

So what year do they want to win? 2014? 2015? When Ralph is gone?

[better days]

I think people underestimate the loss of Levitre in the running game.

If you watched the Bucs Fins game, you would have seen the Bucs plug in RB after RB & pick up yds.

The Bucs have a GOOD OL, the Bills OL needs a LG & RT so BOTH sides of the Bills OL are WEAK.

[WagonCircler]

If you watched the Bucs Fins game, you would have seen the Bucs plug in RB after RB & pick up yds..

Unlike the Phish!!! Hahahaha, they had TWO rushing yards. TWO!!!! The whole game!

[BuffaloRedleg]

Quarterback. If we had a good quarterback, this would be a playoff team.

Everything from the run game to our defense suffers because we cannot move the ball down the field through the air. The defense is on the field too long and too often and teams know we are going to run. I can't possibly blame the defense for any of the losses we've had because they are just on the field too damn long. And you can't tell me it isn't ridiculously deflating to watch your QB throw duck after duck and have to go back on the field every 4 plays.

[TacklingDummy]

Defensively, we have a top 3 line. With Williams, Williams, and Carrington, that is a first rank. Branch and Dareus just make it that much better, but they can't win the game for you. In comes Kiko, Nigel, and Manny. As stated in another thread, Kiko and Manny are having great seasons. Nigel... meh. Then you back up in to the atrocious secondary and ask where Byrd is, see that Aaron is having a great year, and Gilmore and McKelvin are making up for lost ground while Brooks is invisible and Robey and Leonhard have been huge surprises. Take a look at the disgraceful secondary lapses and tell me that you would put in the personnel that the Bills staff did and it wouldn't have gone MUCH better if the team wanted to win. This team does not want to win this year.



You do know that you are talking up a Defense that is ranked 29th in the league? Worse than last years 22nd.

But it would help if we had a QB.

[YardRat]

Hackett is struggling so far...and so is EJ...those are the two biggest issues. Give them the rest of the year to figure it out at least.

[better days]

You do know that you are talking up a Defense that is ranked 29th in the league? Worse than last years 22nd.

But it would help if we had a QB.

You do know the defense has had MANY injuries right?

[better days]

Quarterback. If we had a good quarterback, this would be a playoff team.

Everything from the run game to our defense suffers because we cannot move the ball down the field through the air. The defense is on the field too long and too often and teams know we are going to run. I can't possibly blame the defense for any of the losses we've had because they are just on the field too damn long. And you can't tell me it isn't ridiculously deflating to watch your QB throw duck after duck and have to go back on the field every 4 plays.

No question, the QB play needs to improve as does the OL play.

[DynaPaul]

How's this any different than the last 13 seasons? The team fixes one area and the bottom on another area falls out. It's whack-a-mole.

[imbondz]

My pain is that if we ever do have a QB that's franchiseable, Freddie will be done, Stevie & Spiller will be so fed up at that point that they'll be ready to sign with another team, we go round and round and round in more circles

[pmoon6]

You do know that you are talking up a Defense that is ranked 29th in the league? Worse than last years 22nd.

But it would help if we had a QB.They are currently ranked 19th at yardage per game.

[GingerP]

They are currently ranked 19th at yardage per game.

Also 19th in 3rd down conversions allowed and 24th in Pts/Gm. I'm not sure where he gets 29th.

[pmoon6]

Also 19th in 3rd down conversions allowed and 24th in Pts/Gm. I'm not sure where he gets 29th.Where he gets everything else. Out of his ass.

[MikeInRoch]

"great #1 receiver"? Where?

[WagonCircler]

Imagine this Defense if we had a QB like Alex Smith. Churning out first downs, rarely turning the ball over.

Right now the Defense is very often put in horrible situations thanks to the Offense and the punting game.

Defense is the least of the Bills' problems.

[Jan Reimers]

How's this any different than the last 13 seasons? The team fixes one area and the bottom on another area falls out. It's whack-a-mole.
You have said perfectly what I have been trying to say for years.

[ServoBillieves]

As stated by a few people here, it's bottoming out. This team needed a QB, they got a developmental one and closed the playbook on him. He couldn't throw to save his life... I'm glad we have a veteran QB to show him the ropes OH WAIT. CJ, Freddie, and Stevie will be gone. I'm done blaming injuries for this teams failure. They need depth, and no one wants to come here in the NFL. I want this team to stay in Buffalo as well but it's going to take incredible luck to get good backups because those unlucky enough to get drafted here need to be the depth. Byrd will soon be gone, anyone on the D who knows they can play knows that with the offense staying on the field for 2 minutes of play clock will head ANYWHERE else so they can continue living... It's disgraceful.

[Jan Reimers]

That's the word for this team and it's coaching staff.

How... in all honesty how with 2 star running backs, a great #1 receiver, 2 rookies proving their worth, a steady O-Line, and you can't make your below-average rookie quarterback work? You can't put the game in his hands, but you can give it to your 2nd and 3rd backups? Why not try to win when you have seen Thad provide? This team does not want to win this year.

While I agree that we are disgraceful, I would say we have 2 good - not star - running backs, a number 1 receiver who would be the 3rd guy on many teams, and a very average O-Line, with problems in Legursky and Pears.

K. Williams is very good, M. Williams is horribly inconsistent (no stats last game for a guy who is not a space eater), Carrington is injured, and Dareus is mostly a space eater. Alonso is a great all-around 'backer. The rest of the LBs are OK.

Gilmore has not been good, McKelvin is somewhat better than in the past, and Byrd is on his way out of town.

The coaches have gone into a shell both offensively and defensively. Instead of the fresh, aggressive approaches they took early on, they now seem more Gailey-Wannstadt like.

I think we have very average players - and not many game breakers - whose play has made the coaches afraid to really go for it.

[jdaltroy5]

Also 19th in 3rd down conversions allowed and 24th in Pts/Gm. I'm not sure where he gets 29th.
I think we'd be have a better PPG ranking without the T/Os for TDs and consistently lousy field position from offense and ST.

[ServoBillieves]

While I agree that we are disgraceful, I would say we have 2 good - not star - running backs, a number 1 receiver who would be the 3rd guy on many teams, and a very average O-Line, with problems in Legursky and Pears.

K. Williams is very good, M. Williams is horribly inconsistent (no stats last game for a guy who is not a space eater), Carrington is injured, and Dareus is mostly a space eater. Alonso is a great all-around 'backer. The rest of the LBs are OK.

Gilmore has not been good, McKelvin is somewhat better than in the past, and Byrd is on his way out of town.

The coaches have gone into a shell both offensively and defensively. Instead of the fresh, aggressive approaches they took early on, they now seem more Gailey-Wannstadt like.

I think we have very average players - and not many game breakers - whose play has made the coaches afraid to really go for it.

Spot on. The coaches have fallen back for some reason when they had such a solid, aggressive gameplan at the beginning of the year. I believe, though, that we do have above-average players on both sides of the ball, but an injured CJ becomes average, Stevie injured becomes average, and Kiko is a rookie and needs more room to prove himself.

McKelvin and A. Williams have been huge surprises this year, as well as Jim Leonhard. The secondary only scares me in the sense of how much they're giving up. I'm astonished when this team lines up and actually stuffs the run. It's something we're not used to. And if anyone wants to pull stats out of their ass (TD) take a look at the amount of time other offenses have since ours is so incompetent. If this team wants to succeed, Hackett must go. I like the defensive scheme, and honestly do like what Marrone is doing... but whoever is calling the shots offensively has cost this team at least 3 games.

[pmoon6]

While I agree that we are disgraceful, I would say we have 2 good - not star - running backs, a number 1 receiver who would be the 3rd guy on many teams, and a very average O-Line, with problems in Legursky and Pears.

K. Williams is very good, M. Williams is horribly inconsistent (no stats last game for a guy who is not a space eater), Carrington is injured, and Dareus is mostly a space eater. Alonso is a great all-around 'backer. The rest of the LBs are OK.

Gilmore has not been good, McKelvin is somewhat better than in the past, and Byrd is on his way out of town.

The coaches have gone into a shell both offensively and defensively. Instead of the fresh, aggressive approaches they took early on, they now seem more Gailey-Wannstadt like.

I think we have very average players - and not many game breakers - whose play has made the coaches afraid to really go for it.To be fair to Mario, he was getting a lot of attention from Pittsburgh. It opened up things for other players. We got Roethlisberger on the ground 4 times. The Stealers only had 300 yards of offense and that's with us going 3 and out numerous times. The D was on the field a long time and still managed to stop them for the most part, except some big plays in the second half.

[TacklingDummy]

Where he gets everything else. Out of his ass.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense

[GingerP]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense

You need to sort by the next column, because some teams have played more games than others.

[MikeInRoch]

You need to sort by the next column, because some teams have played more games than others.

That's a bit too complicated for him.

[justasportsfan]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense

thats stupid.


You do know that you are talking up a Defense that is ranked 29th in the league? Worse than last years 22nd.

But it would help if we had a QB.

[Buffalogic]

Hackett is struggling so far...and so is EJ...those are the two biggest issues. Give them the rest of the year to figure it out at least.
They need to seriously shop for a real NFL offensive coordinator in the offseason. Also, we should draft another qb with our high first round pick. The team is playoff caliber and is being dragged down by these guys that just aren't good enough.

[TacklingDummy]

You need to sort by the next column, because some teams have played more games than others.

I'm the Master of twisting stats to fit my argument.

[Mr. Pink]

I'm the Master of twisting stats to fit my argument.

Why shouldn't you? The other side puts up oh Cam Newton did this as a rookie, John Elway did that, Drew Brees did something, oh look Troy Aikman sucked too. Even the glorious Peyton Manning wasn't so good as a rookie.

They're grasping at straws to try and prove that EJ will be some awesome QB one day. He's not even good enough for the CFL let alone the NFL but that's beside the point.

So saying all that why shouldn't you skew the stats to help your argument? Everyone else does.

[TacklingDummy]

So saying all that why shouldn't you skew the stats to help your argument? Everyone else does.

Thing is, if you look at that stat. the Bills are 29th in Total Defense. No joke.

[BertSquirtgum]

Why shouldn't you? The other side puts up oh Cam Newton did this as a rookie, John Elway did that, Drew Brees did something, oh look Troy Aikman sucked too. Even the glorious Peyton Manning wasn't so good as a rookie.

They're grasping at straws to try and prove that EJ will be some awesome QB one day. He's not even good enough for the CFL let alone the NFL but that's beside the point.

So saying all that why shouldn't you skew the stats to help your argument? Everyone else does.

Please show me all of those posts with links.

[Mr. Pink]

Please show me all of those posts with links.

X-Era made an entire thread parroting Chris Brown's EJ to Cam comparison.

And if you can't read the board with the many posts of rookie QBs looking terrible so it's not a big deal EJ does or the should have X team gotten rid of Y QB after 6 starts too, I cannot help you.

[BertSquirtgum]

Why shouldn't you? The other side puts up oh Cam Newton did this as a rookie, John Elway did that, Drew Brees did something, oh look Troy Aikman sucked too. Even the glorious Peyton Manning wasn't so good as a rookie.

They're grasping at straws to try and prove that EJ will be some awesome QB one day. He's not even good enough for the CFL let alone the NFL but that's beside the point.

So saying all that why shouldn't you skew the stats to help your argument? Everyone else does.

So. You are saying they are grasping at straws but are unwilling to prove your point. Just making a blanket statement about the supposed EJ supporters. I read this board quite a bit and I haven't noticed anybody using your named players to make points that EJ will become a superstar.

[CuseJetsFan83]

Thing is, if you look at that stat. the Bills are 29th in Total Defense. No joke.


as much as i like mike pettine with the support in baltimore and the first 2 years with the jets.... it shouldn't be a surprise to see the jets d playing better with pettine gone and rex calling the shots

[BertSquirtgum]

as much as i like mike pettine with the support in baltimore and the first 2 years with the jets.... it shouldn't be a surprise to see the jets d playing better with pettine gone and rex calling the shots

Supposedly Rex was running the defense last year so it wasn't a big loss losing Pettine anyway. Which one is it?

[Later]

My pain is that if we ever do have a QB that's franchiseable, Freddie will be done, Stevie & Spiller will be so fed up at that point that they'll be ready to sign with another team, we go round and round and round in more circles

I've seen enough of both Stevie and Spiller to be convinced that neither will ever be a go-to guy for a winning team.

[MikeInRoch]

Thing is, if you look at that stat. the Bills are 29th in Total Defense. No joke.

No, they aren't. They've played one extra game over most of the other teams.

[TacklingDummy]

No, they aren't. They've played one extra game over most of the other teams.

Stat doesn't lie.

[X-Era]

Why shouldn't you? The other side puts up oh Cam Newton did this as a rookie, John Elway did that, Drew Brees did something, oh look Troy Aikman sucked too. Even the glorious Peyton Manning wasn't so good as a rookie.

They're grasping at straws to try and prove that EJ will be some awesome QB one day. He's not even good enough for the CFL let alone the NFL but that's beside the point.

So saying all that why shouldn't you skew the stats to help your argument? Everyone else does.Hold up. I never made the claim that EJ was Peyton Manning or anyone frankly.

I challenged the notion that he's always going to be garbage and we need to move on. Make those claims requires a crystal ball. And the data I provided shows there are plenty of QB's who turned out to be good after a questionable rookie season. There's also plenty who didn't.

I have no friggin clue what EJ will become in the NFL. But neither do you at this point. So any claim that he is anything is grasping at straws.

What he is is a rookie QB who played poorly last Sunday and who is not currently a franchise QB. That's not enough for me to label him, **** can him, and then go balls out to draft someone new.

[TacklingDummy]

What he is is a rookie QB who played poorly last Sunday and who is not currently a franchise QB. That's not enough for me to label him, **** can him, and then go balls out to draft someone new.
He's a rookie QB who hasn't played poorly in all of approximately 5 drives all year. Not very inspiring. It makes people think Akili Smith more than Peyton Manning.

[pmoon6]

Why shouldn't you? The other side puts up oh Cam Newton did this as a rookie, John Elway did that, Drew Brees did something, oh look Troy Aikman sucked too. Even the glorious Peyton Manning wasn't so good as a rookie.

They're grasping at straws to try and prove that EJ will be some awesome QB one day. He's not even good enough for the CFL let alone the NFL but that's beside the point.

So saying all that why shouldn't you skew the stats to help your argument? Everyone else does.No one said that, at least I didn't. Your projecting. The arguments about other QBs was made because you and your ilk are not even giving Manuel a chance before you label him a bust. The same was done with Spiller and to a certain extent, Dareus.

The propensity for some to pick apart players before they have been in the league three years just shows the attitude of the modern fan. Little understanding what it takes to become a good player and impatience for their team to start winning. Like I've said, this isn't Madden 25 where you plug a virtual player in and we beat NE, 52-0. Real life and the real gridiron is far more complex.

[pmoon6]

I've also said this before. Many Fans feel they are part of the team. They do their draft analysis, FO moves analysis, game analysis, etc. and then want to be validated that they are correct. Unfortunately, they don't really know what went on and they are also looking at it from 20/20 hindsight.

"See, I told you so" becomes the mantra and it makes them think they actually know something.

Too bad the rest of use have to read the constant negativity while the morons pimp their awesome knowledge. I really hope that all of the Anti-Fans are under the same intense scrutiny at their jobs. Maybe only then will they understand what it means to be unfairly judged and see how dumb they actually are.

[jdaltroy5]

Why shouldn't you? The other side puts up oh Cam Newton did this as a rookie, John Elway did that, Drew Brees did something, oh look Troy Aikman sucked too. Even the glorious Peyton Manning wasn't so good as a rookie.

They're grasping at straws to try and prove that EJ will be some awesome QB one day. He's not even good enough for the CFL let alone the NFL but that's beside the point.

So saying all that why shouldn't you skew the stats to help your argument? Everyone else does.There's one major flaw in your argument. I don't think anyone is saying that Manuel is going to be awesome.

The people that are defending him are saying that it's too early to write him off just yet.

[jdaltroy5]

Stat doesn't lie.
Yes it does.

You can't seriously compare different teams that have played a different amount of games.

[MikeInRoch]

Stat doesn't lie.

No. It also doesn't say "29th".

[TacklingDummy]

No. It also doesn't say "29th".
It says 29.

Obviously that will change once all team have played the same amount of games but as of right now, this moment in time, the Bills are ranked 29 in Total Defense.

[MikeInRoch]

So do you admit that saying that is completely deceptive and doesn't reflect the reality? And that you continuing to mention it is only to rile people up?

[jdaltroy5]

It says 29.

Obviously that will change once all team have played the same amount of games but as of right now, this moment in time, the Bills are ranked 29 in Total Defense.
Well then, you need to stop *****ing about our offense, because by your standards, we are 12th overall.

[pmoon6]

So do you admit that saying that is completely deceptive and doesn't reflect the reality? And that you continuing to mention it is only to rile people up?Hey, but he has 60,000 posts!!!! Too bad 59,000 aren't worth the screen they are printed on.

[TacklingDummy]

So do you admit that saying that is completely deceptive and doesn't reflect the reality? And that you continuing to mention it is only to rile people up?
Dude I know the stat was BS because of games played, they are ranked 29th, I can twist that.

[TacklingDummy]

Hey, but he has 60,000 posts!!!! Too bad 59,000 aren't worth the screen they are printed on.
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8, etc...

Some people will get that.

[TacklingDummy]

Well then, you need to stop *****ing about our offense, because by your standards, we are 12th overall.

23rd in Passing Offense.
It's obvious the Bills suck because of their defense and passing game.

[jdaltroy5]

23rd in Passing Offense.
It's obvious the Bills suck because of their defense and passing game.
Who cares? We have the 12th ranked overall offense.

Right?

[Mr. Pink]

Hold up. I never made the claim that EJ was Peyton Manning or anyone frankly.

I challenged the notion that he's always going to be garbage and we need to move on. Make those claims requires a crystal ball. And the data I provided shows there are plenty of QB's who turned out to be good after a questionable rookie season. There's also plenty who didn't.

I have no friggin clue what EJ will become in the NFL. But neither do you at this point. So any claim that he is anything is grasping at straws.

What he is is a rookie QB who played poorly last Sunday and who is not currently a franchise QB. That's not enough for me to label him, **** can him, and then go balls out to draft someone new.

Just like it took a crystal ball to determine that Losman was a bum?

Haven't you watched enough football over the years to see how a guy plays, what his flaws are and how, frankly, much he flat out sucks?

It's not rocket science.

[TacklingDummy]

Who cares? We have the 12th ranked overall offense.

Right?

According to the stats they are.

To be fair if you base it on YPG they only drop from 12th to 16th.
Passing yards drop from 23rd to 29th.

[jdaltroy5]

According to the stats they are.

To be fair if you base it on YPG they only drop from 12th to 16th.
Passing yards drop from 23rd to 29th.Who said anything about fair?

[MikeInRoch]

Dude I know the stat was BS because of games played, they are ranked 29th, I can twist that.

So the answer is "Yes, I know I'm being a *****." Got it.

[pmoon6]

So the answer is "Yes, I know I'm being a *****." Got it.'Tard is more like it, but it's something we have come to expect.