CEO Russ Brandon : Bills to review Toronto future

[Zero]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10077465/buffalo-bills-review-toronto-game-future

There's no way of telling what the end result will be of this evaluation, but its become evident that this whole "Toronto Series" has become a joke...

[better days]

Toronto has proven it is NOT an NFL City.

Less than 40,000 for a REGULAR SEASON NFL game. PITIFUL.

[Zero]

Toronto has proven it is NOT an NFL City.

Less than 40,000 for a REGULAR SEASON NFL game. PITIFUL.

Hopefully this kills all the "Bills to Toronto" talk ...

[Bangarang]

You mean we can go back to having our 8 home games actually played at home? Sign me up.

[Historian]

**** you Russ!-Coastal

[OpIv37]

Toronto has proven it is NOT an NFL City.

Less than 40,000 for a REGULAR SEASON NFL game. PITIFUL.
Well I don't think this is proof-it's one generally meaningless game a year with a borrowed team. My guess is that an NFL team in Toronto full time would get much better support.

That being said, Toronto hasn't helped their case at all. If nothing else, they have moved themselves off the top of the list if potential relocation spots for the Bills, should it come to that

And there was some speculation about the Bills splitting time with Toronto and doing 4 and 4- I think there is zero chance that happens now.

[better days]

Well I don't think this is proof-it's one generally meaningless game a year with a borrowed team. My guess is that an NFL team in Toronto full time would get much better support.

That being said, Toronto hasn't helped their case at all. If nothing else, they have moved themselves off the top of the list if potential relocation spots for the Bills, should it come to that

And there was some speculation about the Bills splitting time with Toronto and doing 4 and 4- I think there is zero chance that happens now.

If that game were played in London or Mexico City, it would have sold out, in Stadiums twice the size of the Rogers Center.

Toronto is NOT an NFL City PERIOD.

[SpikedLemonade]

"Toronto has been positive for us down here," Brandon said. "We've had great growth in the southern Ontario marketplace over the last five years back here at Ralph Wilson Stadium. That has been a big positive...."

[SpikedLemonade]

"It's also about being viable. That's one of the things that we've talked about for many years here. Look at it from the standpoint from where we've been on the ticket side. We've taken a game out of the market that has essentially taken 70,000 seats out of our market, and we've truly only sold out two of our home games," Brandon said. "We've manufactured sellouts in the other four or five. We're trying to find ways to obviously keep this team viable and we've done a very good job, and this [Toronto] series has obviously contributed to that."

[SpikedLemonade]

If that game were played in London or Mexico City, it would have sold out, in Stadiums twice the size of the Rogers Center.

Toronto is NOT an NFL City PERIOD.

I think with Buffalo having the lowest average priced tickets and luxury boxes, the lack of sell outs is showing that Buffalo will NOT be an NFL City in 10 years.

[Pinkerton Security]

I think with Buffalo having the lowest average priced tickets and luxury boxes, the lack of sell outs is showing that Buffalo will NOT be an NFL City in 10 years.

Do you think perhaps it has anything to do with the product on the field? IF we were even 7-5 instead of 5-7, the Ralph would definitely be sold out IMO, which would debunk your theory

[SpikedLemonade]

Do you think perhaps it has anything to do with the product on the field? IF we were even 7-5 instead of 5-7, the Ralph would definitely be sold out IMO, which would debunk your theory

Of course it does, however why do you think our future record on the field will be better than our current or past record?

[Pinkerton Security]

Of course it does, however why do you think our future record on the field will be better than our current or past record?

We have absolutely no way of knowing that. 10 years is a very long time.

[OpIv37]

If that game were played in London or Mexico City, it would have sold out, in Stadiums twice the size of the Rogers Center.

Toronto is NOT an NFL City PERIOD.
Well I think you're forgetting a couple of things. First, people in Toronto can drive to Buffalo if they really want to see football, and there are die-hards that do. Live football is not nearly that accessible in London or Mexico City. Second, hockey is Canada's national sport and Buffalo is a hockey rival, so they are already predisposed to root against us.

[coastal]

**** you Russ!-Coastal
Exactly

[jdaltroy5]

If that game were played in London or Mexico City, it would have sold out, in Stadiums twice the size of the Rogers Center.

Toronto is NOT an NFL City PERIOD.Because anyone in Toronto can just drive 2 hours south of the border and get much cheaper tickets and be able to tailgate.

People in Toronto just don't want to spend a ton of money to watch two crappy teams duke it out for a top 5 draft pick.

When they first announced the game in Toronto, 180,000 people entered into a lottery to get tickets. Rogers thought they could just charge whatever they wanted and it all went downhill from there.

[jamze132]

Jesus people!

Buffalo Bills fans are stupid crazy and are ****ing psychotic when we win. Hows bout' OBD spends to the cap and brings in some talent???? If the Bills win, people will be dying to buy those tickets, and then guess what Russ... Guess? You can raise ticket prices and guess what... (they'll still come!!!!!)

****ING WIN YOU DUMB ****

[Yasgur's Farm]

Do you think perhaps it has anything to do with the product on the field? IF we were even 7-5 instead of 5-7, the Ralph would definitely be sold out IMO, which would debunk your theory4 and 8... Just saying. Do you linve in Toronto?

[trapezeus]

If that game were played in London or Mexico City, it would have sold out, in Stadiums twice the size of the Rogers Center.

Toronto is NOT an NFL City PERIOD.

because Mexico City and London don't have a game 2 hours away for much less. This is their chance to see a game live without spending more to go elsewhere.

Toronto bills fans aren't idiots. if they love the team like us, they come to buffalo and find it outrageous to pay up to 4x the ticket price for a turd. The games aren't even orchestrated to be a different type of event. it's just another game.

OP is right. if toronto was a full 8 game season, with luxury boxes, a 50k-60k is more beneficial to an owner than a sold out 80k no box stadium.

The lack of any support towards buffalo by the NFL is the most telling sign that they just want ralph to die and sell the team to the highest bidder and sees what happens. they know we'll all freak out during the time remaining before the outclause. we'll scoop up tickets left and right and the team will still suck. and then in the first openning, they'll leave.

[HAMMER]

When Ralph dies and the lease is up the Bills are gone. Anyone that can't see this is simply not opening their eyes.

[Jan Reimers]

Here's the problem with attendance in both Toronto and Buffalo: THE BILLS SUCK!

Brandon can't seem to understand that you can't pour perfume on a pig year after year. The pig still stinks, and people can't stand to buy tickets to smell the stench.

[trapezeus]

Why don't we trade russ brandon to Toronto for our game back. toronto gets another self righteous wanker and buffalo fans get their team and dignity back.

[SpikedLemonade]

Notice how they publicized the $78M made on the 1st 5 year deal, but they kept the money received for the 2nd 5 year deal quiet?

I have looked everywhere and can't find what the Bills got for this 2nd deal. I bet they got a fraction of $78M and the Bills are doing it simply to attract Toronto fans to come to Buffalo for games.

Why not? The Bills can't sell out the 7 games in Buffalo every year.

[Mr. Pink]

If that game were played in London or Mexico City, it would have sold out, in Stadiums twice the size of the Rogers Center.

Toronto is NOT an NFL City PERIOD.

If the Bills played in London every year, after the 5th year of such an attempt of NFL football, it would be a weak turnout.

Neutral site fans are fans of seeing good football. They have no allegiance to either team.

It doesn't take a genius to realize putting two pathetic looking teams together isn't gonna draw jack in a neutral site.

[better days]

If the Bills played in London every year, after the 5th year of such an attempt of NFL football, it would be a weak turnout.

Neutral site fans are fans of seeing good football. They have no allegiance to either team.

It doesn't take a genius to realize putting two pathetic looking teams together isn't gonna draw jack in a neutral site.

BS. The Jags will be playing a number of games in London starting this year.

Want to bet they sell MANY more than 40,000 seats?

[IlluminatusUIUC]

If the Bills played in London every year, after the 5th year of such an attempt of NFL football, it would be a weak turnout.

Neutral site fans are fans of seeing good football. They have no allegiance to either team.

It doesn't take a genius to realize putting two pathetic looking teams together isn't gonna draw jack in a neutral site.

To be fair, nobody knew Atlanta was gonna be ass when they scheduled them. They were a quarter away from the Super Bowl this January.

[jdaltroy5]

BS. The Jags will be playing a number of games in London starting this year.

Want to bet they sell MANY more than 40,000 seats?Can people in London drive for 2 hours to pay a fraction of the price to watch the same team play 7 other games in the year?

[better days]

Notice how they publicized the $78M made on the 1st 5 year deal, but they kept the money received for the 2nd 5 year deal quiet?

I have looked everywhere and can't find what the Bills got for this 2nd deal. I bet they got a fraction of $78M and the Bills are doing it simply to attract Toronto fans to come to Buffalo for games.

Why not? The Bills can't sell out the 7 games in Buffalo every year.

Buffalo would have no problem selling out 8 games a year if they put a COMPETITIVE team on the field.

[better days]

Can people in London drive for 2 hours to pay a fraction of the price to watch the same team play 7 other games in the year?

Good point. But ONLY 40,000 seats in a City as LARGE & WEALTHY as Toronto, just proves all they care about is the Leafs up there.

While Buffalo is attracting fans from Canada, I doubt many come from Toronto.

[SpikedLemonade]

Buffalo would have no problem selling out 8 games a year if they put a COMPETITIVE team on the field.

Pretty big if.

[SpikedLemonade]

Good point. But ONLY 40,000 seats in a City as LARGE & WEALTHY as Toronto, just proves all they care about is the Leafs up there.

While Buffalo is attracting fans from Canada, I doubt many come from Toronto.

The figure I saw was 10,000 come from Toronto on average for the sold out games.

[better days]

The figure I saw was 10,000 come from Toronto on average for the sold out games.

And how many come from the rest of Ontario?

[Mr. Pink]

BS. The Jags will be playing a number of games in London starting this year.

Want to bet they sell MANY more than 40,000 seats?

After a few years put a stinker opponent against them and see how well they draw.

This is assuming the Jags will be bad a few years from now still.

[better days]

After a few years put a stinker opponent against them and see how well they draw.

This is assuming the Jags will be bad a few years from now still.

I don't care. London would draw PERIOD just like the Bills don't draw in Toronto.

If the Bills were a playoff team, Toronto would sell out..........................because Bills fans from Buffalo would cross the Border to watch them.

[jdaltroy5]

Good point. But ONLY 40,000 seats in a City as LARGE & WEALTHY as Toronto, just proves all they care about is the Leafs up there.

While Buffalo is attracting fans from Canada, I doubt many come from Toronto.No, it just proves that won't just throw their money around for a lousy team that they have no allegiance to. Tickets for this event were $800 (because you had to buy the exhibition game with the RS game) when they first started this disaster. I'm a season ticket holder and Bills fan and I wouldn't pay that much for the game. Do you think anyone else would if they're not a fan of the Bills?

The Jays, Raptors, and TFC have combined for 1 division championship in the last 20 years. We still have above average attendance for all of them, despite being more expensive than a lot of other cities.

When the Jays were good, they broke the overall attendance record. When the Raptors were good (back with Vince Carter) they were top 5 in attendance, right up there with the Bulls and Knicks. When the Rock were winning championships, they broke the attendance records.

[trapezeus]

London is its own thing. at the currency exchange. they can charge in GBP and convert at 1.5x back to dollars and make a killing with a fraction of the people in the seats. and i'm sure if the seat is $100, they charge 100 GBP which is essentially equivalent to $150. Then as a large entity, they get preferntial FX rates and thank the good people of london who just wanted to attend a game this season.

if the stadium doesn't fill up, they don't care. they made money and help try to push the game in other areas of the world.

[SpikedLemonade]

And how many come from the rest of Ontario?

5-10K.

[Mr. Pink]

I don't care. London would draw PERIOD just like the Bills don't draw in Toronto.

If the Bills were a playoff team, Toronto would sell out..........................because Bills fans from Buffalo would cross the Border to watch them.

They would sell out because the Bills were good. Or they'd sell out if you put a marquee opponent there or a superstar player's team. It's a neutral field so they only care if the teams they see are any good, that's the point.

Put a good team there, people will go. Put the Redskins there and people will want to see RGIII. Put the Broncos there and well yeah you get the point. Put what turns out to be a crap matchup and you saw what happened.

Hell we're 20k short of a sell out for the Miami game, so I guess Buffalo can't support it's own franchise according to your logic.

[jamze132]

Its so simple. You win, you sell tickets.

[The King]

Russ made a great point though, until the Bills can sell out home games without help, Toronto may be needed to keep the Bills viable.

[trapezeus]

buffalo sells out the games for the first game every damn year. when hope is highest. in their two false start seasons, the tickets were sold well in advance. buying season tickets is a rich man/high disposable income game. a family isn't buying seasons unless there is a reason to believe. simplymaking $30 billieve tshirts doesn't do it.

if there was some reason to think there was some sustainable way of being relevent, people would buy tickets.... and the city of buffalo is decling, but the region has been fairly stable. so if he can't get the people there, that isn't buffalo's fault. it's his. but he's the big CEO, so he gets to deflect the blame elsewhere. Great leadership. i wonder why the team leadership has been so pathetic.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

Hopefully this kills all the "Bills to Toronto" talk ...

Not how the front office folks think unfortunately. They'll probably announce that the reason Torontoans don't go to the Bills game in Canada is because they don't feel enough ownership of the team, and as such the Bills will play 4 home games a year in Toronto. Why? Because that's how the Brandon gang thinks.

[better days]

They would sell out because the Bills were good. Or they'd sell out if you put a marquee opponent there or a superstar player's team. It's a neutral field so they only care if the teams they see are any good, that's the point.

Put a good team there, people will go. Put the Redskins there and people will want to see RGIII. Put the Broncos there and well yeah you get the point. Put what turns out to be a crap matchup and you saw what happened.

Hell we're 20k short of a sell out for the Miami game, so I guess Buffalo can't support it's own franchise according to your logic.

I find it amusing that people like you say Toronto would sell out with a GOOD team, BUT Chide Bills fans for not selling out in Buffalo.

When this is the 14th year the Bills have SUCKED.

If the Bills were a GOOD team, there would be no reason to go to Toronto.

EVERY game in Buffalo would be sold out.

[chris66]

Buffalo would have no problem selling out 8 games a year if they put a COMPETITIVE team on the field.

The team has been competitive and still only managed to sell out 2 games. Russ stated this morning that if the game was at the ralph it would not have been sold out. heck there are still 20,000 tickets remaining for the Miami game

[better days]

The team has been competitive and still only managed to sell out 2 games. Russ stated this morning that if the game was at the ralph it would not have been sold out. heck there are still 20,000 tickets remaining for the Miami game

Had the Bills made the playoffs this Century, this team could be viewed as a competitive team on the rise.

But after 13 years with no playoffs & now in DECEMBER with only 4 wins this team is not viewed that way.

And Russ has no way to know if the Atlanta game would have sold out in Buffalo or not.

But I can guarantee MANY more than 40,000 would have bought tickets in Buffalo.

In that alternate reality, maybe the Bills record would be 8-4 instead of 4-8.

[Historian]

I honestly don't know why you guys hang on every syllable out of this guy's mouth....he's a tool.

When you get to that level in any organization, you eveolve into a politician, who needs to speak out of both sides of his mouth.

All Brandon is doing, is the same thing Wilson has done for the last fifty some years: Make veiled rumblings about relocating to keep the masses buying.

Sorry, I personally am not falling for it anymore. Move, don't move, I really could care less.

You had the best team in professional football in 1990, and you still managed to **** it up.

Personally, I think a Stanley Cup here would be more prestiegeous anyway.

\end rant

[coastal]

My wife... a complete outsider to Buffalo Bills fandom has observed us here and me personally throughout the past 7 years.

Her take on the Bills, "I hope the Bills move! Just put everyone out of their misery already, because it's not like it's fun for anyone anyways."

on a basic level... she's right.

[Turf]

The team has been competitive and still only managed to sell out 2 games. Russ stated this morning that if the game was at the ralph it would not have been sold out. heck there are still 20,000 tickets remaining for the Miami game

Doesn't sell out because:

A: The team sucks

B: The weather sucks - we really need a modern dome. Older people with money won't sit through cold rain and snow to watch a **** product.

c: Better family environment - the drunken tailgating experience also keeps a lot of people away. If you can't enjoy a game without tailgating, maybe you just like partying and are not a fan. I love Sabre games and never have to get wasted in the parking lot before hand.

d: Better access to the stadium

[OpIv37]

Doesn't sell out because:

A: The team sucks

B: The weather sucks - we really need a modern dome. Older people with money won't sit through cold rain and snow to watch a **** product.

c: Better family environment - the drunken tailgating experience also keeps a lot of people away. If you can't enjoy a game without tailgating, maybe you just like partying and are not a fan. I love Sabre games and never have to get wasted in the parking lot before hand.

d: Better access to the stadium

C. Be careful what you wish for. The tailgating is the only thing that kept this team viable for all these years of suck. Everyone knew that they could have fun tailgating even if the team sucked on the field, so they showed up anyway.

D. Define "access." A downtown stadium may be closer to the population centers but the roads are moe congested, so it doesn't mean better access.

[ublinkwescore]

You mean we can go back to having our 8 home games actually played at home? Sign me up.
Yea, look for the NFL to send us to London every other season.

[Jan Reimers]

I honestly don't know why you guys hang on every syllable out of this guy's mouth....he's a tool.

When you get to that level in any organization, you eveolve into a politician, who needs to speak out of both sides of his mouth.

All Brandon is doing, is the same thing Wilson has done for the last fifty some years: Make veiled rumblings about relocating to keep the masses buying.

Sorry, I personally am not falling for it anymore. Move, don't move, I really could care less.

You had the best team in professional football in 1990, and you still managed to **** it up.

Personally, I think a Stanley Cup here would be more prestiegeous anyway.

\end rant
Good rant. I now refuse even to drive down the road to Miami to watch the Bills play. I've pretty much had it with false hope and empty promises from an organization that has no idea of how to win - and worse - doesn't seem to give a s**t.

[SpikedLemonade]

The tailgating is the only thing that kept this team viable for all these years of suck. Everyone knew that they could have fun tailgating even if the team sucked on the field, so they showed up anyway.

That's right.

[Bulldog]

I'd like to see an interview with Russ Brandon by somebody that's willing to ask the difficult questions. Like what has he personally done to justify the position that he currently holds? Why should Bills fans in Western New York continue to support a team that hasn't made the playoffs in over a decade? Brandon is an arrogant ***** who feels the need to talk down to others to make sure everyone knows he's the smartest guy in the room. Jokes on you Russ. Aside from making more money than the majority of us will ever see, you've been an epic failure in almost every facet of managing an NFL team.

On a side note, anyone who thinks that the Western/Central NY region can't support and NFL franchise is delusional. There's more than enough money. But myself, like many others, are sick and tired of wasting money and missing time with family to attend what amounts to an all day affair. I did it for over a decade and it's just worn me down to the point where I don't even enjoy going. Winning cures a lot of ills.

[Mr. Pink]

Doesn't sell out because:

A: The team sucks

B: The weather sucks - we really need a modern dome. Older people with money won't sit through cold rain and snow to watch a **** product.

c: Better family environment - the drunken tailgating experience also keeps a lot of people away. If you can't enjoy a game without tailgating, maybe you just like partying and are not a fan. I love Sabre games and never have to get wasted in the parking lot before hand.

d: Better access to the stadium

A. no disagreement

B. Green Bay has trouble selling out don't they? Pittsburgh? Chicago? This weather crap is just an excuse.

C. No NFL stadium is a "family" environment.

D. The access to the stadium isn't horrendous. Not great could be better but could be a hell of a lot worse.

Fix A and the rest don't matter.

[Mr. Pink]

I find it amusing that people like you say Toronto would sell out with a GOOD team, BUT Chide Bills fans for not selling out in Buffalo.

When this is the 14th year the Bills have SUCKED.

If the Bills were a GOOD team, there would be no reason to go to Toronto.

EVERY game in Buffalo would be sold out.

Honest opinion time...

I don't know if Buffalo could actually support a winning team. Ticket prices as they are now are among the lowest in the league, if the team became good, ticket prices would go up to closer to league average. Everyone, including the owner of the team, cries this area is poor and yadda yadda yadda. I'm sure this is part of the analytics the team has gone over, making the team as mediocre as possible while still having enough fan support to fill the seats. However, even the level of mediocrity this year hasn't been enough since I believe there's only been one real sell out, the rest were manufactured sell outs so the game would be on TV.

Do you think people in Buffalo would be willing to sign up for 3,000 dollar season tickets? Or the cheapest seat in the house being the price that good seats cost now?

I get people not wanting to spend money to see an inferior product and would never chide anyone for it. But sometimes you get what you pay for...you're paying cheap prices here to see NFL football, do you expect to see a superior product?

[Bulldog]

Honest opinion time...

I don't know if Buffalo could actually support a winning team. Ticket prices as they are now are among the lowest in the league, if the team became good, ticket prices would go up to closer to league average. Everyone, including the owner of the team, cries this area is poor and yadda yadda yadda. I'm sure this is part of the analytics the team has gone over, making the team as mediocre as possible while still having enough fan support to fill the seats. However, even the level of mediocrity this year hasn't been enough since I believe there's only been one real sell out, the rest were manufactured sell outs so the game would be on TV.

Do you think people in Buffalo would be willing to sign up for 3,000 dollar season tickets? Or the cheapest seat in the house being the price that good seats cost now?

I get people not wanting to spend money to see an inferior product and would never chide anyone for it. But sometimes you get what you pay for...you're paying cheap prices here to see NFL football, do you expect to see a superior product?

And conversely, do you expect people to pay premium prices for a dumpster fire of a team? There is plenty of people in the area that could support a significant rise in ticket prices if the team actually pulled their head out of their a s s long enough to build a winner.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

B. Green Bay has trouble selling out don't they? Pittsburgh? Chicago? This weather crap is just an excuse.

Green Bay hasn't had a legitimately bad QB as its opening day starter for 20 years, but before that they were farming home games to Milwaukee as we are doing to Toronto because Lambeau wasn't sufficient for their full slate. Chicago has the league's smallest stadium in it's second largest market. Pittsburgh sold fewer tickets per game then Buffalo this year, and fills almost the same % of its seats (http://espn.go.com/nfl/attendance/_/sort/homePct)

I agree that winning trumps weather, but weather can't be ignored.

[Mr. Pink]

And conversely, do you expect people to pay premium prices for a dumpster fire of a team? There is plenty of people in the area that could support a significant rise in ticket prices if the team actually pulled their head out of their a s s long enough to build a winner.

Ticket prices are on par for the team on the field and it doesn't sell. Below average team, below average ticket prices.

I know the salary cap is paid for by the tv contracts but signing bonuses are not...so where do you think that money comes from? Ralph obviously. In order to attract top flight free agents or retain your own you need to plunk down 20-25 million to get them here or get them to stay. Buffalo is unable to sell luxury boxes so where is that 20ish million coming from? Ticket sales, merchandise sales, toronto deal, etc... So in order to attract more good players or keep them, ticket prices would have to go up exponentially.

You might think people could afford a significant increase but I have major doubts as people complain any time either the sabres or bills have tried to raise prices in the past, even when they were relevant.

An example of the disparity in ticket prices. Bills end zone tickets are 64 dollars. Patriots end zone tickets are 132.

[Bulldog]

Ticket prices are on par for the team on the field and it doesn't sell. Below average team, below average ticket prices.

I know the salary cap is paid for by the tv contracts but signing bonuses are not...so where do you think that money comes from? Ralph obviously. In order to attract top flight free agents or retain your own you need to plunk down 20-25 million to get them here or get them to stay. Buffalo is unable to sell luxury boxes so where is that 20ish million coming from? Ticket sales, merchandise sales, toronto deal, etc... So in order to attract more good players or keep them, ticket prices would have to go up exponentially.

You might think people could afford a significant increase but I have major doubts as people complain any time either the sabres or bills have tried to raise prices in the past, even when they were relevant.

An example of the disparity in ticket prices. Bills end zone tickets are 64 dollars. Patriots end zone tickets are 132.

Of course people complain when there's talk of raising prices. Do you enjoy it when prices go up on things you enjoy? I think the *****ing and moaning would be much quieter if either the Sabres or Bills could actually string together a few successful seasons.

With regards to the team not selling out despite ticket prices being on par with the team, I think it has absolutely nothing to do with the cost and it has a lot more to do with the fact that people are tired of watching a terrible team. Field a winner and raise the prices and the fans will still come.

[DraftBoy]

C. Be careful what you wish for. The tailgating is the only thing that kept this team viable for all these years of suck. Everyone knew that they could have fun tailgating even if the team sucked on the field, so they showed up anyway.

You both have a point though. If you can't have fun at the game without getting blitzed before then there are some questions to ask, but at the same time if your on the field product is so ****ty you the biggest attraction is the tailgate then you have a whole different set of questions.

[DraftBoy]

A. no disagreement

B. Green Bay has trouble selling out don't they? Pittsburgh? Chicago? This weather crap is just an excuse.

C. No NFL stadium is a "family" environment.

D. The access to the stadium isn't horrendous. Not great could be better but could be a hell of a lot worse.

Fix A and the rest don't matter.

Don't know that'd I agree with C, I've been to all of the NFL stadiums in the southeast and none of them have much trouble being family friendly. Of course that probably depends on your definition and interpretation of what "family friendly" means too.

[better days]

Honest opinion time...

I don't know if Buffalo could actually support a winning team. Ticket prices as they are now are among the lowest in the league, if the team became good, ticket prices would go up to closer to league average. Everyone, including the owner of the team, cries this area is poor and yadda yadda yadda. I'm sure this is part of the analytics the team has gone over, making the team as mediocre as possible while still having enough fan support to fill the seats. However, even the level of mediocrity this year hasn't been enough since I believe there's only been one real sell out, the rest were manufactured sell outs so the game would be on TV.

Do you think people in Buffalo would be willing to sign up for 3,000 dollar season tickets? Or the cheapest seat in the house being the price that good seats cost now?

I get people not wanting to spend money to see an inferior product and would never chide anyone for it. But sometimes you get what you pay for...you're paying cheap prices here to see NFL football, do you expect to see a superior product?

$3000. would equate to over $300.00 per game.

Show me ANY team that has an average ticket price in that range.

The Most expensive average ticket is not that much more than what the Bills tickets are.

I think without a doubt, if the Bills give Buffalo a TRULY COMPETITIVE team, the games would be sold out.

Just as they are in Pittsburgh & Green Bay.

[SpikedLemonade]

And conversely, do you expect people to pay premium prices for a dumpster fire of a team? There is plenty of people in the area that could support a significant rise in ticket prices if the team actually pulled their head out of their a s s long enough to build a winner.

Is there enough corporations to pay the average price of what corporate boxes go for in the NFL?

I don't see it.

The individual fans may suck it up and pay triple what they pay now, but I just don't see the corporations that would be needed to purchase boxes in a new stadium.

Corporations sure won't be coming from Toronto.

[stuckincincy]

He should - but can't ponder about the future of the NFL .He would slit his own throat. Remember a few months ago, when Lem Barney predicted the end of the NFL in 20 or so years? Litigation. Barney got slapped and retracted a bit.

He was right.

Add in a generation that thinks that stealing copyrighted items - every game week there are those who inquire how to stream a game - convinced that it is ok, that it is not what it clearly is - theft.

Top that with huge contract costs incurred by cable and satellite to buy the NFL product, pushing billings higher and higher, sticking it to folks who don't care a rat's patoot about sports programming. Sooner or later, they will push back. Toss in technologies like Roku and Hulu.

And we hear the yowling for a new stadium. Look around - what we need more is expanded jail cell space. If Bflo is like Cin...

[OpIv37]

$3000. would equate to over $300.00 per game.

Show me ANY team that has an average ticket price in that range.

The Most expensive average ticket is not that much more than what the Bills tickets are.

I think without a doubt, if the Bills give Buffalo a TRULY COMPETITIVE team, the games would be sold out.

Just as they are in Pittsburgh & Green Bay.
Ticket price face value? No.

Factor in the PSL costs and you might get close....

[DraftBoy]

Ticket price face value? No.

Factor in the PSL costs and you might get close....

Or over.

Giants have over half their seats at $5,000 PSL, and average ticket price of $88, for a first year Season Ticket Holder they are paying $713 per game for their seat.

[Mr. Pink]

Or over.

Giants have over half their seats at $5,000 PSL, and average ticket price of $88, for a first year Season Ticket Holder they are paying $713 per game for their seat.

That's my point.

People want a new stadium, people want a good team. I'm not sure they realize how much money they're gonna have to pony up for both to occur. And I don't think the area could economically support it.

[better days]

That's my point.

People want a new stadium, people want a good team. I'm not sure they realize how much money they're gonna have to pony up for both to occur. And I don't think the area could economically support it.

I agree a NEW Stadium would COST.

But it should not cost any extra to field a GOOD team.


I think the best thing for Buffalo & Bills fans is to keep the Ralph updated as they are doing now.

[trapezeus]

the ralph isn't anywhere close to where the NFL model is trying to fit in. The boxes are old and small and largely underpriced.

the NFL should take about revenue sharing the box money, becaue the have's kill it with what they can do drawing people to them with nice facilities and bigger paychecks. if the NFL really wanted to level the playing field, they'd share the box money because that is where the inequality is coming up. and then the small market teams that the NFL still wants to stand by can compete with a front office and scouting staff in line with others.

but since they don't, they make it pretty clear that if you can't fit their model, they'll find a city that can.

[better days]

Or over.

Giants have over half their seats at $5,000 PSL, and average ticket price of $88, for a first year Season Ticket Holder they are paying $713 per game for their seat.

I doubt $88 is the average cost per seat.

Well, I checked stub hub & you are right about the price of tickets for the Giants.

Still, the Giants along with the Cowboys & Redskins are no doubt the most expensive in the NFL.

I know the Jets tickets are cheaper than Giants tickets.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

My wife... a complete outsider to Buffalo Bills fandom has observed us here and me personally throughout the past 7 years.

Her take on the Bills, "I hope the Bills move! Just put everyone out of their misery already, because it's not like it's fun for anyone anyways."

on a basic level... she's right.

This is why I have suspected that many at OBD watch Major League as their gospel.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Or over.

Giants have over half their seats at $5,000 PSL, and average ticket price of $88, for a first year Season Ticket Holder they are paying $713 per game for their seat.

The PSL is a great idea that went completely wrong. The PSL was originally proposed to replace public funding for stadiums by distributing the costs among season ticket holders - and then teams started getting public money money and charging PSLs anyway to double-dip.

[trapezeus]

my understanding of the PSL is that it also is like a timeshare. its psuedo ownership with none of the benefits. i'd rather be gouged with a higher ticket price then some artificial fee that bestows absolutely no benefit.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

my understanding of the PSL is that it also is like a timeshare. its psuedo ownership with none of the benefits. i'd rather be gouged with a higher ticket price then some artificial fee that bestows absolutely no benefit.

You are correct, but again, the idea was for teams to use PSLs to finance stadium construction rather than demanding public subsidy.

Welllllll that didn't work.

[trapezeus]

they should just tax the NFL now. it's kind of crazy that the working man's money goes into the tax pool, it goes out to build a stadium. the profit from stadiums are largely given to the owner of the team (ralph wilson made money on "hosting" the first winter classic). The very wealthy have tax shelters and other tax advantages that the average person doesn't. so we are literally giving money away to the already well to do and not really getting any benefit.

Do we have a winning team? Do we have a decent stadium? Is it's location beneficial for the city of Buffalo. No on all accounts. They talk about being brilliant business men, but they literally don't have to spend money on expenses. Makes running a business a lot easier if you ask me.

[better days]

they should just tax the NFL now. it's kind of crazy that the working man's money goes into the tax pool, it goes out to build a stadium. the profit from stadiums are largely given to the owner of the team (ralph wilson made money on "hosting" the first winter classic). The very wealthy have tax shelters and other tax advantages that the average person doesn't. so we are literally giving money away to the already well to do and not really getting any benefit.

Do we have a winning team? Do we have a decent stadium? Is it's location beneficial for the city of Buffalo. No on all accounts. They talk about being brilliant business men, but they literally don't have to spend money on expenses. Makes running a business a lot easier if you ask me.

So, what is new? RICH Farmers are subsidized. Corporations get tax breaks or threaten to move.

[BertSquirtgum]

So, what is new? RICH Farmers are subsidized. Corporations get tax breaks or threaten to move.

Rich farmers? Hum-bug

[better days]

Rich farmers? Hum-bug

The days of the small farmer barely getting by are over. They have all been bought out by RICH Farmers/Conglomerations.

[BertSquirtgum]

So, what is new? RICH Farmers are subsidized. Corporations get tax breaks or threaten to move.


The days of the small farmer barely getting by are over. They have all been bought out by RICH Farmers/Conglomerations.

What reality do you live in? One of my best friends is one of the the biggest dairy farmers in Niagara county. Most of the big farms in NY are family owned passed down.

[better days]

What reality do you live in? One of my best friends is one of the the biggest dairy farmers in Niagara county. Most of the big farms in NY are family owned passed down.

What reality do you live in?

If your friend is one of the biggest dairy farmers in Niagara County, he is no doubt rich.

And also no doubt, his farm got so big because his family bought out smaller farms around them.

We get RICH farmers down here on vacation all the time. And they don't drive, they FLY in their private planes.

[BertSquirtgum]

What reality do you live in?

If your friend is one of the biggest dairy farmers in Niagara County, he is no doubt rich.

And also no doubt, his farm got so big because his family bought out smaller farms around them.

We get RICH farmers down here on vacation all the time. And they don't drive, they FLY in their private planes.

Keep on smoking what you're smoking.

[better days]

Keep on smoking what you're smoking.

I don't smoke which is a good thing because I could not afford to smoke because I don't have your friends kind of money.

And your avatar is a BIG IMPROVEMENT over what you have had up for a while now.