To those that want the team to lose......

[Dr. Lecter]

I do not know where this pseudo-intellectual desire to see this team lose came from or how anybody can see it as a legitimate stance to take (especially those that have played competitive sports in the past), but it is time for them to honestly open their eyes and realize what playing sports is all about.

Throughout the history of competitive sports and its associated fandom, one thing has been a constant. Each and every contest is battle between two conflicting sides who each have one goal in mind - to win the damn game. All sporting events are a time for these conflicting sides to battle to the end, until there is a winner declared. This applies whether it is a team sport, such as football or baseball, or individual sports, such as boxing or golf. We demand, or should demand, that all athletes competing in these events put all of their competitive energy into winning these contests.

This pining to see the Bills lose their games is the complete opposite to what sports is all about. The great thing about sports is that is the ultimate battle between two opposing sides who each have the same goal in mind and that we, as fans, know only one can be successful. The claim to be a fan of sports, while rooting for your team to lose is not only counter productive, but it is also falling into the collective mindset that saying something that sounds absurd on its surface must be a sign of great intellect or of thinking things out more than others. The simple fact of the matter is that it is quite possible to build successful teams without drafting in the top 10 or top 5. And it is even more possible to build horrendous teams despite constantly having these top picks. Enjoy your self gratification and pat yourselves on the backs as some grandiose group on intellectuals that can see why losing is good. Because you are wrong. This team has lost too damn much in the past to think that works.

This week they are playing the Miami Dolphins, with a chance to put a severe damper on Miami getting into the post season. As I do every week, I will root for the Bills. That is a felling that is only amplified when they are playing the Dolphins. Nothing would be better than to watch the Bills beat Miami and help them have their season over as of December 29th. </SPAN>

So continue to root for the Bills to lose, while simultaneously saying you are a Bills fan, under the false pretense that a better draft position is all worth it. This team has been drafting in the top 12 for most of the last 14 years and it has not done a damn thing. Maybe it makes you feel smarter. Maybe it makes you feel like you have “sacrificed” something for the greater good. At it really shows is that you don’t get a damn thing about what sports is all about.</SPAN>

And that is, quite simply, winning every damn chance you get. </SPAN>

Here is to the Bills helping knock the Dolphins out of the playoff chase</SPAN>

Go Bills</SPAN>

[Mr. Pink]

The Cavs purposely lost to get Lebron James.

The Colts pretty much purposely lost to get Andrew Luck.

The Pens lost to get Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin.

Purposely losing games happens all over sports to get guys who are considered top talents.

I will agree that this year isn't the year to actually do it and especially not at this juncture. They're picking from 9th to 15th regardless of what else they do and there isn't much difference between those two picks. Two years ago purposely tanking games to get Luck would have made sense, hell even getting RGIII. Back in 98 with the RJ/Flutie crap, losing out would have netted Manning instead of this generation of suck.

There are times to do it where it is a benefit but it's not that often and it's not that important when it comes to picking 9th or 12th.

[Ginger Vitis]

Spiked Lemonade and Tackling Dummy have been on the lose every game for a better draft pick mantra all year. They were pissed off the Bills beat the Panthers in week 2

[sudzy]

That's the problem, I don't want to lose. I don't want to be the fan of a Bills team that is going to be the 5th -10th worst team in the NFL for the rest of my life, either. And every fan on this board wants the Bills to be a contender again. But, if it means bottoming out to get a franchise QB, so be it. Just stop the 5 to 7 win seasons.

[Night Train]

Rooting for losses/higher draft picks is beyond ******ed.

Many of these same posters piss & moan that we draft poorly...then hope we lose out for better picks. :hitself:

[Albany,n.y.]

I do not know where this pseudo-intellectual desire to see this team lose came from or how anybody can see it as a legitimate stance to take (especially those that have played competitive sports in the past), but it is time for them to honestly open their eyes and realize what playing sports is all about.

Throughout the history of competitive sports and its associated fandom, one thing has been a constant. Each and every contest is battle between two conflicting sides who each have one goal in mind - to win the damn game. All sporting events are a time for these conflicting sides to battle to the end, until there is a winner declared. This applies whether it is a team sport, such as football or baseball, or individual sports, such as boxing or golf. We demand, or should demand, that all athletes competing in these events put all of their competitive energy into winning these contests.

This pining to see the Bills lose their games is the complete opposite to what sports is all about. The great thing about sports is that is the ultimate battle between two opposing sides who each have the same goal in mind and that we, as fans, know only one can be successful. The claim to be a fan of sports, while rooting for your team to lose is not only counter productive, but it is also falling into the collective mindset that saying something that sounds absurd on its surface must be a sign of great intellect or of thinking things out more than others. The simple fact of the matter is that it is quite possible to build successful teams without drafting in the top 10 or top 5. And it is even more possible to build horrendous teams despite constantly having these top picks. Enjoy your self gratification and pat yourselves on the backs as some grandiose group on intellectuals that can see why losing is good. Because you are wrong. This team has lost too damn much in the past to think that works.

This week they are playing the Miami Dolphins, with a chance to put a severe damper on Miami getting into the post season. As I do every week, I will root for the Bills. That is a felling that is only amplified when they are playing the Dolphins. Nothing would be better than to watch the Bills beat Miami and help them have their season over as of December 29th. </SPAN>

So continue to root for the Bills to lose, while simultaneously saying you are a Bills fan, under the false pretense that a better draft position is all worth it. This team has been drafting in the top 12 for most of the last 14 years and it has not done a damn thing. Maybe it makes you feel smarter. Maybe it makes you feel like you have “sacrificed” something for the greater good. At it really shows is that you don’t get a damn thing about what sports is all about.</SPAN>

And that is, quite simply, winning every damn chance you get. </SPAN>

Here is to the Bills helping knock the Dolphins out of the playoff chase</SPAN>

Go Bills</SPAN>

1) Drafting in the top 12 is the problem. The Bills don't lose enough to get the no-brainer picks. The last time they did they got Bruce Smith.
2) We aren't players, we're fans. That gives us the ability to look beyond the next game for the betterment of the team. The "fans" who think like you are delusional player wannabes.

[sudzy]

Rooting for losses/higher draft picks is beyond ******ed.

Many of these same posters piss & moan that we draft poorly...then hope we lose out for better picks. :hitself:

What's the answer then? Continue the 3 year coaching carrousel? Continue trying to pass scrubs off as franchise QBs? Stay in that 5 to 7 win category?

[Ginger Vitis]

This years edition of the Toronto Raptors started the season off 6-12 and at that point traded their 2nd leading scorer Rudy Gay and there are now rumours they are looking to trading their starting point guard Kyle Lowry. There were rumblings in the media they were trying to tank the season to have a better chance at getting Canadian born consensus No.1 prospect Andrew Wiggins. I have to admit the Raptors drafting Wiggins would be the best thing ever for that franchise. And next years draft with likely Andrew Wiggins.. Jabari Parker.. and Julius Randle being eligible 2014 NBA draft class is considered the strongest in years.. It has been suggested a few teams have purposely set it up so they would be awful this year so they could have high pick for the 2014 NBA draft

[Albany,n.y.]

The Cavs purposely lost to get Lebron James.

The Colts pretty much purposely lost to get Andrew Luck.

The Pens lost to get Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin.

Purposely losing games happens all over sports to get guys who are considered top talents.

I will agree that this year isn't the year to actually do it and especially not at this juncture. They're picking from 9th to 15th regardless of what else they do and there isn't much difference between those two picks. Two years ago purposely tanking games to get Luck would have made sense, hell even getting RGIII. Back in 98 with the RJ/Flutie crap, losing out would have netted Manning instead of this generation of suck.

There are times to do it where it is a benefit but it's not that often and it's not that important when it comes to picking 9th or 12th.
In the NBA the Spurs lost David Robinson for the season & ended up with Tim Duncan. They've won 4 NBA championships with Duncan. Be the worst in the right year, be a championship contender for the next decade.

[SquishDaFish]

Great posting Lecter. Couldnt of said it any better myself and agree with you all the way

[jdaltroy5]

The Cavs purposely lost to get Lebron James.

The Colts pretty much purposely lost to get Andrew Luck.

The Pens lost to get Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin.

Purposely losing games happens all over sports to get guys who are considered top talents.

I will agree that this year isn't the year to actually do it and especially not at this juncture. They're picking from 9th to 15th regardless of what else they do and there isn't much difference between those two picks. Two years ago purposely tanking games to get Luck would have made sense, hell even getting RGIII. Back in 98 with the RJ/Flutie crap, losing out would have netted Manning instead of this generation of suck.

There are times to do it where it is a benefit but it's not that often and it's not that important when it comes to picking 9th or 12th.The Pens did not purposely lose to get Crosby. It was a year after the lockout and everyone had the same shot at the lottery. And I'm pretty sure they didn't purposely lose to get Malkin either considering he wasn't the first guy taken in the draft.

You just named really crappy teams that drafted good players and then speculated that they purposely lost.

[Novacane]

If there was an Andrew Luck type player we had a legitimate shot atI'd say losing would benefit us in the long run. Since there isn't I hope we win out.

[jdaltroy5]

This years edition of the Toronto Raptors started the season off 6-12 and at that point traded their 2nd leading scorer Rudy Gay and there are now rumours they are looking to trading their starting point guard Kyle Lowry. There were rumblings in the media they were trying to tank the season to have a better chance at getting Canadian born consensus No.1 prospect Andrew Wiggins. I have to admit the Raptors drafting Wiggins would be the best thing ever for that franchise. And next years draft with likely Andrew Wiggins.. Jabari Parker.. and Julius Randle being eligible 2014 NBA draft class is considered the strongest in years.. It has been suggested a few teams have purposely set it up so they would be awful this year so they could have high pick for the 2014 NBA draftThat's not entirely true either. They traded Gay because he took way too many poor shots and has a massive contract. They've actually played better without him. And they're talking about trading Lowry because his contract is up and they're not sure if he'll re-sign.

Their GM basically came out and said that they won't be caught in no-man's land. They are either going to go for it, or start a re-build.

[Night Train]

What's the answer then? Continue the 3 year coaching carrousel? Continue trying to pass scrubs off as franchise QBs? Stay in that 5 to 7 win category?

Manuel is already a scrub after playing 8-9 games ???

Then why draft another QB, when we OBVIOUSLY don't know what we're doing in the draft ???

[Mr. Pink]

The Pens did not purposely lose to get Crosby. It was a year after the lockout and everyone had the same shot at the lottery. And I'm pretty sure they didn't purposely lose to get Malkin either considering he wasn't the first guy taken in the draft.

You just named really crappy teams that drafted good players and then speculated that they purposely lost.

The funny part is it wasn't the first time the Penguins have gone into the tank for the best player in the draft.

They did the same thing in 84 to get Lemieux. Lord Stanley says it worked in 84.

Pittsburgh won the Crosby sweepstakes because of how bad they were the prior 3 seasons and no not every team had a shot of winning the lottery. There were balls given depending on how poor you were the prior 3 years. 4 other teams I believe, including the Sabres, had the same chance as the Pens at winning the Crosby lottery. So it can be argued they tanked 3 consecutive seasons to get Crosby, Malkin and Fleury and after 3 years of futility they have now been a good team for the past 8. I'd say it worked for them.

It was no secret that the Cavs were losing games to try and get local boy Lebron James. And they succeeded. Even though they eventually lost James to the Heat, this was a success for them as they were basically the Buffalo Bills of the NBA, middling around, picking top 10 but never getting that superstar player to put them into contenders, James turned them into a perennial playoff team and top team in the East. Worked for them too!

The reason the NBA has a lottery? Because the Rockets were accused of throwing games to get the first overall pick. They got Hakeem Olajuwon for throwing a season, I'd say it was a fair trade for them.

[jdaltroy5]

The funny part is it wasn't the first time the Penguins have gone into the tank for the best player in the draft.

They did the same thing in 84 to get Lemieux. Lord Stanley says it worked in 84.The Penguins actually did do that. That was apparent because they were basically playing AHL players. That was also 30 years ago.


Pittsburgh won the Crosby sweepstakes because of how bad they were the prior 3 seasons and no not every team had a shot of winning the lottery. There were balls given depending on how poor you were the prior 3 years. 4 other teams I believe, including the Sabres, had the same chance as the Pens at winning the Crosby lottery. So it can be argued they tanked 3 consecutive seasons to get Crosby, Malkin and Fleury and after 3 years of futility they have now been a good team for the past 8. I'd say it worked for them.Really? So they tanked the previous three seasons in hopes that there would be a lockout and they could have a slightly better chance of attaining a 15 year old kid. Alright then.


It was no secret that the Cavs were losing games to try and get local boy Lebron James. And they succeeded. Even though they eventually lost James to the Heat, this was a success for them as they were basically the Buffalo Bills of the NBA, middling around, picking top 10 but never getting that superstar player to put them into contenders, James turned them into a perennial playoff team and top team in the East. Worked for them too!That one was true and probably the only believable one from your original scenarios. The coach flat out came out and said that the owner told him to play young players.

In any event, that's still only 3 or 4 players in the last 30 years over 2 different sports. Neither of them were football.

[Ginger Vitis]

That's not entirely true either. They traded Gay because he took way too many poor shots and has a massive contract. They've actually played better without him. And they're talking about trading Lowry because his contract is up and they're not sure if he'll re-sign.

Their GM basically came out and said that they won't be caught in no-man's land. They are either going to go for it, or start a re-build.

I should have mentioned the Raptors have won 3 of 4 since Rudy Gay was traded. Other than 2006 when they got Bargnani 1st overall(who has been one of the worst overall 1st overall picks of the last 10 years) The Raptors have been very Bills like perpetually mediocre but for the most part never terrible enough to get Top 2 picks... Again if there is any thought or hope in the Raptors front office to getting a Top 3 pick in next yers draft I wouldn't blame them

[cookie G]

1) Drafting in the top 12 is the problem. The Bills don't lose enough to get the no-brainer picks. The last time they did they got Bruce Smith.
2) We aren't players, we're fans. That gives us the ability to look beyond the next game for the betterment of the team. The "fans" who think like you are delusional player wannabes.

And it seems like every other year there has been a QB the Bills missed on for ....defensive back..

Whitner over Cutler
McLovin over Flacco
Aaron Williams over Kapernick..

Sorry..it isn't like there hasn't been talent there. But when you waste it like that...you have only yourself to blame.

Funny how good teams continue to rebuild despite rarely, if ever, pick in the top 5.

I'll take a well run organization over tanking a season any time.

Hell...if we get a top 3 pick...people are going to want to draft a safety.

Draft position doesn't replace competence.

[sudzy]

Manuel is already a scrub after playing 8-9 games ???

Then why draft another QB, when we OBVIOUSLY don't know what we're doing in the draft ???

JP was a scrub, Edwards was a scrub, Fitz was a scrub. EJ was a desperate reach in a draft with no QBs. Next year there are 3 QBs rated as top ten picks and the Bills will pass because they need to give EJ 5 years to fail. This team is a vicious circle.

[sudzy]

And it seems like every other year there has been a QB the Bills missed on for ....defensive back..

Whitner over Cutler
McLovin over Flacco
Aaron Williams over Kapernick..

Sorry..it isn't like there hasn't been talent there. But when you waste it like that...you have only yourself to blame.

Funny how good teams continue to rebuild despite rarely, if ever, pick in the top 5.

I'll take a well run organization over tanking a season any time.

Hell...if we get a top 3 pick...people are going to want to draft a safety.

Draft position doesn't replace competence.

I wish I could thank this post 100x

[Mr. Pink]

Draft position doesn't replace competence.

So are the Colts competent, lucky or know what seasons to just be terrible?

They've drafted 2 franchise QBs in the past 15 years. Oddly enough the season prior to going into the tank to get them both they were in the playoffs. So here's the Colts seasons since 1995. AFC Championship game playoffs terrible Manning growth year playoffs etc etc Superbowl champs more playoffs etc suck for Luck playoffs and playoffs again.

[cookie G]

So are the Colts competent, lucky or know what seasons to just be terrible?

They've drafted 2 franchise QBs in the past 15 years. Oddly enough the season prior to going into the tank to get them both they were in the playoffs. So here's the Colts seasons since 1995. AFC Championship game playoffs terrible Manning growth year playoffs etc etc Superbowl champs more playoffs etc suck for Luck playoffs and playoffs again.

And San Fransisco got their franchise QB in the 2nd round without tanking games;
And Baltimore got theirs towards the middle/lower end of the first;
And Cinci, which has had a top 5-10 for as long as I can remember ...got finally got their pseudo-franchise QB in the 2nd Round (or was it the 3rd?);
And people must be really jealous of Cleveland...because they've had a top 5 pick since they re-opened for business...and they still don't have one;
Neither does Arizona.

This whole..."we suck because we don't draft high enough" argument is not only for losers...its created by losers.

Jesus, the team takes a QB once every 9 years...but its because they haven't tanked a season yet..

Maybe this team should pay attention to how winners draft. And then hire some of their people away from them.

[Mr. Pink]

And San Fransisco got their franchise QB in the 2nd round without tanking games;
And Baltimore got theirs towards the middle/lower end of the first;
And Cinci, which has had a top 5-10 for as long as I can remember ...got finally got their pseudo-franchise QB in the 2nd Round (or was it the 3rd?);
And people must be really jealous of Cleveland...because they've had a top 5 pick since they re-opened for business...and they still don't have one;
Neither does Arizona.

This whole..."we suck because we don't draft high enough" argument is not only for losers...its created by losers.

Jesus, the team takes a QB once every 9 years...but its because they haven't tanked a season yet..

Maybe this team should pay attention to how winners draft. And then hire some of their people away from them.

Then the Colts are losers?

Cleveland has only taken one QB in the top 5 and never put anything around him for him to succeed. And they weren't bad enough to get Luck and didn't offer enough to get RGIII. Then they've done the same thing as the Bills draft the wrong guys and hang their hats on the wrong guys. Quinn, Weedeen, McCoy, Frye, Garcia. The Bills and Browns are interchangeable in terms of suck and ineptitude when it comes to the QB position.

Dalton was a high second round pick after they used their top 4 pick on AJ Green. They were good prior to Palmer getting hurt in the playoffs.

Kaepernick was a high second round pick.

So shockingly enough both the 9ers and Bengals sucked the year prior to getting their franchise guy.

The Ravens, Patriots and Packers are the only recent examples of teams I can think of who were good teams while drafting their franchise QB.

So the moral of the story is you basically have to suck to get a franchise QB.

[Dr. Lecter]

Here are the current playoff teams.

Denver
New England
Cincinatti
Indianapolis
Kansas City
Baltimore/Miami

Seattle
New Orleans
Philadelphia
Detroit/Chicago
San Francisco
Carolina

12 teams. 2 or 3 (Depending on Detroit tonight) of them acquired their starting QB with a top 5 pick.

[Mr. Pink]

Here are the current playoff teams.

Denver
New England
Cincinatti
Indianapolis
Kansas City
Baltimore/Miami

Seattle
New Orleans
Philadelphia
Detroit/Chicago
San Francisco
Carolina

12 teams. 2 or 3 (Depending on Detroit tonight) of them acquired their starting QB with a top 5 pick.

Manning was a 1.
Luck was 1.
Alex Smith was 1.
Cam Newton was 1.
The Eagles have Vick who started some games, 1.
Stafford was 1.
Jay Cutler was a 1st round pick. 11
Tannehill was a 1st round pick. 8
Flacco was a mid to low first round pick.

So out 14 playoff possible teams 8 of those teams have 1st round drafted QBs and 6 of those were drafted 1st overall. Take out Vick, half of those possible playoff teams have QBs who were drafted in the 1st. 6 of them drafted 1st overall.

Yeah some of those were trades or FA signings, but their prior team sucked to get them.

So about half the playoff teams will have a QB who was selected number 1 overall so all we need to do is trade for one if we aren't bad enough to draft one on our own volition.

[Dr. Lecter]

Manning was a 1.
Luck was 1.
Alex Smith was 1.
Cam Newton was 1.
The Eagles have Vick who started some games, 1.
Stafford was 1.
Jay Cutler was a 1st round pick. 11
Tannehill was a 1st round pick. 8
Flacco was a mid to low first round pick.

So out 14 playoff possible teams 8 of those teams have 1st round drafted QBs and 6 of those were drafted 1st overall. Take out Vick, half of those possible playoff teams have QBs who were drafted in the 1st. 6 of them drafted 1st overall.

Yeah some of those were trades or FA signings, but their prior team sucked to get them.

So about half the playoff teams will have a QB who was selected number 1 overall so all we need to do is trade for one if we aren't bad enough to draft one on our own volition.

The Eagles were terrible with Vick - so don't even try that line of crap.

Manning and Smith are not with the teams that drafted them - which is the point of this entire discussion (i.e. a team needs to suck to get these players).


Cutler, Tannehill and Flacco were all drafted in the area of where the Bills are likely to be drafting this year.

So, as I said, only three of the teams on that list - Detroit, Carolina and Indy all drafter their guy in a position before where the Bills will be drafting this year.

My point stands.

The teams they are with now did not take them as early as you and others act like they did.

Like the facts or not - they are facts

[Mr. Pink]

The Eagles were terrible with Vick - so don't even try that line of crap.

Manning and Smith are not with the teams that drafted them - which is the point of this entire discussion (i.e. a team needs to suck to get these players).


Cutler, Tannehill and Flacco were all drafted in the area of where the Bills are likely to be drafting this year.

So, as I said, only three of the teams on that list - Detroit, Carolina and Indy all drafter their guy in a position before where the Bills will be drafting this year.

My point stands.

The teams they are with now did not take them as early as you and others act like they did.

Like the facts or not - they are facts

The fact is 50%, or close to it, of playoff teams will have QBs on their roster that were drafted 1st overall at some point.

But rest your laurels that these "great" teams just all know how to draft their QBs in like the 3rd round like the Hawks and Eagles did or the 6th like the Pats did.

For every Russell Wilson, there's 20 Trent Edwards. For every Tom Brady, there's likely 100 Spurgeon Wynn's.

Of course you don't necessarily have to suck to get that guy...you can just have John Elway recruit Peyton Manning. Or sign a late bloomer Alex Smith who if he looked like he does the past couple seasons earlier in his career, Colin Kaepernick would have never been a 49er.

[Dr. Lecter]

The fact is 50%, or close to it, of playoff teams will have QBs on their roster that were drafted 1st overall at some point.

But rest your laurels that these "great" teams just all know how to draft their QBs in like the 3rd round like the Hawks and Eagles did or the 6th like the Pats did.

For every Russell Wilson, there's 20 Trent Edwards. For every Tom Brady, there's likely 100 Spurgeon Wynn's.

Of course you don't necessarily have to suck to get that guy...you can just have John Elway recruit Peyton Manning. Or sign a late bloomer Alex Smith who if he looked like he does the past couple seasons earlier in his career, Colin Kaepernick would have never been a 49er.

Of course there are more busts there. Nobody said otherwise.

The idea that losing breeds winning is absurd. The history of the Bills, Lions, Browns, Cardinals and so on prove that.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

The reason the NBA has a lottery? Because the Rockets were accused of throwing games to get the first overall pick. They got Hakeem Olajuwon for throwing a season, I'd say it was a fair trade for them.

And in so doing, they passed on Michael Jordan.

[better days]

This years edition of the Toronto Raptors started the season off 6-12 and at that point traded their 2nd leading scorer Rudy Gay and there are now rumours they are looking to trading their starting point guard Kyle Lowry. There were rumblings in the media they were trying to tank the season to have a better chance at getting Canadian born consensus No.1 prospect Andrew Wiggins. I have to admit the Raptors drafting Wiggins would be the best thing ever for that franchise. And next years draft with likely Andrew Wiggins.. Jabari Parker.. and Julius Randle being eligible 2014 NBA draft class is considered the strongest in years.. It has been suggested a few teams have purposely set it up so they would be awful this year so they could have high pick for the 2014 NBA draft

Well I would bet even if they successfully lose & get the top pick they still will be losers. Look at the Cavs. Sure they got Lebron..................a lot of good that did them.

Football especially is not about individual players. It is about GOOD Coaching, a Good system & good players throughout the roster rather than a STAR.

Sure you need a GOOD QB, but he doesn't have to be a HOF QB to win. Look at Eli Manning & Joe Falco.

[Meathead]

what i cant figure out is why so many ppl cant distinguish btwn what the team has to do and what a fan can do

the team has an obligation to themselves, their teammates, the league, and the fans to try their very best every time

the fans can do w/e the hell they want

so why every time this discussion comes up three-quarters of the posters talk like they are going to be suiting up on sunday

so root for w/e the hell you want. it wont make a lick of difference. unless you have telekinesis powers you can share then what the fk are we doing talking about football lets get our asses to a roulette wheel

[YardRat]

what i cant figure out is why so many ppl cant distinguish btwn what the team has to do and what a fan can do

the team has an obligation to themselves, their teammates, the league, and the fans to try their very best every time

the fans can do w/e the hell they want

so why every time this discussion comes up three-quarters of the posters talk like they are going to be suiting up on sunday

so root for w/e the hell you want. it wont make a lick of difference. unless you have telekinesis powers you can share then what the fk are we doing talking about football lets get our asses to a roulette wheel

Black 15. Let 'er ride, buddy.

You're welcome.

[starrymessenger]

Of course there are more busts there. Nobody said otherwise.

The idea that losing breeds winning is absurd. The history of the Bills, Lions, Browns, Cardinals and so on prove that.

Drafting well breeds winning. Having early picks can facilitate a good draft.
Some of those teams, for example the Bills and Rams, have over the last decade generally not drafted well.
Other teams, like the Chiefs, have had some pretty good drafts but poor coaching.
And this just in: nobody wants to lose.
But I would rather lose a meaningless game in Foxboro in December if it means I get to draft a generational talent like Bruce Smith (and maybe Clowney is that guy) who will help me beat the Pats for the next ten years.
Or, if I think I already have my QB, I can trade out of a high pick for a king's ransom to fill a number of important holes in my lineup, like the Rams did. Stuff that I would never get to do if I'm picking more towards the middle of the order.

[cookie G]

Here are the current playoff teams.

Denver
New England
Cincinatti
Indianapolis
Kansas City
Baltimore/Miami

Seattle
New Orleans
Philadelphia
Detroit/Chicago
San Francisco
Carolina

12 teams. 2 or 3 (Depending on Detroit tonight) of them acquired their starting QB with a top 5 pick.

hmmmm....

so..out of those teams going to the playoffs...we could have drafted/acquired...

...9 of the QB's leading them there...and that doesn't include Manning or Brady.

Cinci...had the opportunity to draft Dalton...passed...twice..chose A Williams
KC..gave up a 2nd and a 2014 3rd for Smith...(meh, I'm not even big on Smith)
Baltimore..Flacco..we took Mclovin;
Miami..we could have moved up to draft Tannehill if we wanted, cheaply...maybe a 3rd..we chose Gillmore;
Seattle...passed, passed and passed and gave them a Pro Bowl RB to boot!;
New Orleans...could have had Brees,who went at the top of the 2nd.. we drafted Clement at 21 instead;
Philly...passed, passed and passed..
Chicago...could have had Cutler...we took Whitner instead;
San Fran...could have had Kapernick...took A. Williams instead;]

That's 9 of the 14 teams in playoff contention.

We passed over 6 of the playoff QBs, count 'em...SIX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...because we thought DB was a more important position/had a greater need/had a prospect too good to pass up.

Yeah...but the only way to get one is to tank your season..

You look at that list...you consider that this team hasn't had a QB since Kelly..you look at the playoff drought..and you consider who we drafted..

and you know why we haven't been there.

It has nothing to do with our past draft positions.

It has to do with dumb asses.

[cookie G]

And in so doing, they passed on Michael Jordan.

At least they didn't take Sam Bowie

[Dr. Lecter]

what i cant figure out is why so many ppl cant distinguish btwn what the team has to do and what a fan can do

the team has an obligation to themselves, their teammates, the league, and the fans to try their very best every time

the fans can do w/e the hell they want

so why every time this discussion comes up three-quarters of the posters talk like they are going to be suiting up on sunday

so root for w/e the hell you want. it wont make a lick of difference. unless you have telekinesis powers you can share then what the fk are we doing talking about football lets get our asses to a roulette wheel
What I can't figure out is why you can't see the point of the thread.

Jesus. was I wearing a hoodie while posting it?

[starrymessenger]

hmmmm....

so..out of those teams going to the playoffs...we could have drafted/acquired...

...9 of the QB's leading them there...and that doesn't include Manning or Brady.

Cinci...had the opportunity to draft Dalton...passed...twice..chose A Williams
KC..gave up a 2nd and a 2014 3rd for Smith...(meh, I'm not even big on Smith)
Baltimore..Flacco..we took Mclovin;
Miami..we could have moved up to draft Tannehill if we wanted, cheaply...maybe a 3rd..we chose Gillmore;
Seattle...passed, passed and passed and gave them a Pro Bowl RB to boot!;
New Orleans...could have had Brees,who went at the top of the 2nd.. we drafted Clement at 21 instead;
Philly...passed, passed and passed..
Chicago...could have had Cutler...we took Whitner instead;
San Fran...could have had Kapernick...took A. Williams instead;]

That's 9 of the 14 teams in playoff contention.

We passed over 6 of the playoff QBs, count 'em...SIX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...because we thought DB was a more important position/had a greater need/had a prospect too good to pass up.

Yeah...but the only way to get one is to tank your season..

You look at that list...you consider that this team hasn't had a QB since Kelly..you look at the playoff drought..and you consider who we drafted..

and you know why we haven't been there.

It has nothing to do with our past draft positions.

It has to do with dumb asses.

You are right, in part.
If you don't have the right priorities or the ability to evaluate talent, having a good position in the draft order will do nothing for you.
But if you are a good picker and you have a great draft position, and assuming a good to exceptional class, well then you can do yourself a lot of good.
Right now I'm giving Doug Whaley and his scouts the benefit of the doubt.

[better days]

The fact is 50%, or close to it, of playoff teams will have QBs on their roster that were drafted 1st overall at some point.

But rest your laurels that these "great" teams just all know how to draft their QBs in like the 3rd round like the Hawks and Eagles did or the 6th like the Pats did.

For every Russell Wilson, there's 20 Trent Edwards. For every Tom Brady, there's likely 100 Spurgeon Wynn's.

Of course you don't necessarily have to suck to get that guy...you can just have John Elway recruit Peyton Manning. Or sign a late bloomer Alex Smith who if he looked like he does the past couple seasons earlier in his career, Colin Kaepernick would have never been a 49er.

Remains to be seen if Alex Smith is good enough to win in the post season even surrounded by GOOD players.

If the Chiefs have any success at all this post season, that will be PROOF a team does not need an Elite QB to win.

[WagonCircler]

What I can't figure out is why you can't see the point of the thread.

Jesus. was I wearing a hoodie while posting it?

Here's the thing--you (not you personally) can root for whatever outcome you want, and it won't make a dime's worth of difference.

As Bills fans, we learn to look for the silver lining, because it's all we ever get, save for a brief period in the early 90s.

When I think about this question, I think about the Bills desperately trying to move up to grab Roethlisberger, who I REALLY wanted to break the string of crappy QBs here. But no, we couldn't jump over Jacksonville, and the ***** Steelers got him.

We end up continuing the litany of losers, and Big Ben grabs a pair of rings.

At least for once the Bills identified the right guy. They just couldn't get him.

I never root for the Bills to lose on game day. Ever.

But in times like these, I see nothing wrong with hoping that at least we have a shot at something better than LosmanEdwardsManuel...

Not that the Bills will draft a QB. God forbid. We need EJ to finish out his mandatory 3 seasons of suck, then we get to start all over again!

Wooohoooo!

[Mr. Pink]

It has nothing to do with our past draft positions.

It has to do with dumb asses.

And if the Colts drafted second overall back in 98, they would have had Ryan Leaf.

If Manning was a year younger, he would have been a Cleveland Brown 1st overall in 99.

With two tweaks, Polian and the Colt organization go from geniuses to nothing. And Carmen Policy, Dwight Clark and Chris Palmer are geniuses in my second example.

There's nothing inherently smart about how you pick players, giving yourself better odds when you're terrible helps as does luck. And not just the Andrew variety of Luck.

And about the passing on playoff QBs point, 32 NFL teams passed on some of those guys, some multiple times. Does that mean every team was stupid for letting Tom Brady sit there til the 6th round? Was every team stupid for passing on Russell Wilson or Nick Foles twice? Lot of dumb asses in the NFL apparently.

[better days]

And if the Colts drafted second overall back in 98, they would have had Ryan Leaf.

If Manning was a year younger, he would have been a Cleveland Brown 1st overall in 99.

With two tweaks, Polian and the Colt organization go from geniuses to nothing. And Carmen Policy, Dwight Clark and Chris Palmer are geniuses in my second example.

There's nothing inherently smart about how you pick players, giving yourself better odds when you're terrible helps as does luck. And not just the Andrew variety of Luck.

And about the passing on playoff QBs point, 32 NFL teams passed on some of those guys, some multiple times. Does that mean every team was stupid for letting Tom Brady sit there til the 6th round? Was every team stupid for passing on Russell Wilson or Nick Foles twice? Lot of dumb asses in the NFL apparently.

And if Manning did not have his neck broken by a Redskin, he would still be a Colt.

[Mr. Pink]

And if Manning did not have his neck broken by a Redskin, he would still be a Colt.

It's proof that losing and losing at the right time pays off for the future as much as some people don't want to admit to it.

Like when the Bills identified Roethlisberger as the guy they wanted but couldn't get him because they couldn't leap frog Pittsburgh. They beat the Jets later in the year to finish with the same record as Pittsburgh, which by SOS tiebreakers forced them to pick after the Steelers. Without that meaningless win, guess who would be a Bill today? His name ain't JP Losman who would have been a bum on someone else's team.

Just like the Colts, if they beat SD earlier in 97 or win a meaningless game week 17...Peyton Manning is never a Colt.

But you read posts around here that meaningless victories build character or a winning culture as if it's factual basis.

[better days]

It's proof that losing and losing at the right time pays off for the future as much as some people don't want to admit to it.

Like when the Bills identified Roethlisberger as the guy they wanted but couldn't get him because they couldn't leap frog Pittsburgh. They beat the Jets later in the year to finish with the same record as Pittsburgh, which by SOS tiebreakers forced them to pick after the Steelers. Without that meaningless win, guess who would be a Bill today? His name ain't JP Losman who would have been a bum on someone else's team.

Just like the Colts, if they beat SD earlier in 97 or win a meaningless game week 17...Peyton Manning is never a Colt.

But you read posts around here that meaningless victories build character or a winning culture as if it's factual basis.

I think it goes to show LUCK is the biggest factor in getting THE QB.

[Mr. Pink]

I think it goes to show LUCK is the biggest factor in getting THE QB.

Ah so the Colts were just lucky they sucked in 1997 and then again in 2011.

And the Bills were unlucky when they beat the Jets late in 2003.

Got it! :up:

[jamze132]

I agree with Lecter.

I think that closing out the season on a winning streak will be more beneficial to the team than losing out to get a top 5-10 draft pick.

[better days]

Ah so the Colts were just lucky they sucked in 1997 and then again in 2011.

And the Bills were unlucky when they beat the Jets late in 2003.

Got it! :up:

Yeah it was LUCK. Do you think the Irsey's paid the Skins to break Mannings neck?

If Manning were healthy, the Colts would have had a GOOD season.

[pmoon6]

And if the Colts drafted second overall back in 98, they would have had Ryan Leaf.

If Manning was a year younger, he would have been a Cleveland Brown 1st overall in 99.

With two tweaks, Polian and the Colt organization go from geniuses to nothing. And Carmen Policy, Dwight Clark and Chris Palmer are geniuses in my second example.

There's nothing inherently smart about how you pick players, giving yourself better odds when you're terrible helps as does luck. And not just the Andrew variety of Luck.

And about the passing on playoff QBs point, 32 NFL teams passed on some of those guys, some multiple times. Does that mean every team was stupid for letting Tom Brady sit there til the 6th round? Was every team stupid for passing on Russell Wilson or Nick Foles twice? Lot of dumb asses in the NFL apparently....or maybe the draft is a very inexact science.

I love the Tuesday morning draft geniuses. If you remember the Manning/Leaf draft there was a huge debate about who the Colts should take. The book at the time on those guys was that Manning was more ready to start out of the gate. Leaf was considered a better raw talent, but would have to be groomed for a bit. It's not a stretch to say that had Leaf been a back-up the first year, that he would have been a successful QB. Of course, we know what happened. He was thrust into the starting role and was too immature to handle it and thus failed.

However, we know that you're smarter than any scout or GM in the NFL, so we should defer to your opinion.

[pmoon6]

If the rabbit wouldn't have stopped to take a ****, he would have beat the tortoise.

[pmoon6]

Here's what sums up the Anti-Fans and the Monday Morning QB's.

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.” ~ Theodore Roosevelt

I still marvel at the timid souls who think they are actually part of the team. That they alone know how to right the ship and had they been listened to, we would be a perennial playoff club. But, they do this from the comfort of their living rooms and have little idea what it's like to do it when the next day they may be fired, cut, or injured. That's why the "big brains" and the naysayers are an endless source of amusement.

They call anyone who is behind their team, "homers" and the pump out their chest when they guess right about a player or coach. The NFL loves these guys. They play fantasy football and may even wager on the games because their football acumen is so high, they could never possibly be wrong.

So root for a loss, but when you do, know that no matter how much money you spend or how many games you go to, you will never be a true fan.

[Skooby]

...or maybe the draft is a very inexact science.

I love the Tuesday morning draft geniuses. If you remember the Manning/Leaf draft there was a huge debate about who the Colts should take. The book at the time on those guys was that Manning was more ready to start out of the gate. Leaf was considered a better raw talent, but would have to be groomed for a bit. It's not a stretch to say that had Leaf been a back-up the first year, that he would have been a successful QB. Of course, we know what happened. He was thrust into the starting role and was too immature to handle it and thus failed.

However, we know that you're smarter than any scout or GM in the NFL, so we should defer to your opinion.

Chemically addicted QB or a straight laced all-American multi-generational player, hmmm... I'd offer all my potential draft picks a free haircut, then go from there.

[pmoon6]

Chemically addicted QB or a straight laced all-American multi-generational player, hmmm... I'd offer all my potential draft picks a free haircut, then go from there.What did I say in the last post. Easy for you to say when you know the outcome, but can you say the same beforehand?

[better days]

What did I say in the last post. Easy for you to say when you know the outcome, but can you say the same beforehand?

Exactly. I don't remember anything about Leaf using drugs before the draft.

And who knows, maybe he didn't start that until after he got in the NFL.

And some people do mature, look at Chris Carter.

[DraftBoy]

That's not entirely true either. They traded Gay because he took way too many poor shots and has a massive contract. They've actually played better without him. And they're talking about trading Lowry because his contract is up and they're not sure if he'll re-sign.

Their GM basically came out and said that they won't be caught in no-man's land. They are either going to go for it, or start a re-build.

Yup, this is dead on. Rudy Gay has so much damn talent but his tendency to jack up a 3 point shot with 18+ seconds left on the shot clock without even looking for a pass drives me nuts.

[cookie G]

And if the Colts drafted second overall back in 98, they would have had Ryan Leaf.

If Manning was a year younger, he would have been a Cleveland Brown 1st overall in 99.

With two tweaks, Polian and the Colt organization go from geniuses to nothing. And Carmen Policy, Dwight Clark and Chris Palmer are geniuses in my second example.

There's nothing inherently smart about how you pick players, giving yourself better odds when you're terrible helps as does luck. And not just the Andrew variety of Luck.

So this is your plan? Really?

Because 15 years ago...the Colts, as you say, got lucky and won the Peyton Manning sweepstakes?

So...do the Bills tank the next 15 seasons waiting for the next Peyton Manning?

or should they play hard for 14 years and tank on year 15 to get ready, because, you know, Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck were the only QB's ever worth drafting, and they came 15 years apart?

Should they keep drafting CB's and safeties and wait 15 years for the next Peyton Manning to come along..so when he does, they can tank the prior season and then they'll have him AND a dream defensive backfield?

God...this logic is up there with "Don't draft an OL, because 9 years ago, we got Jason Peters as a UDFA, and look how good he turned out!

I'm sure Cleveland fans, Texan fans and Texan fans are all in on the "if we only had the first pick in the draft, we'll get a franchise QB" logic.

Tim Couch
David Carr
Jamarcus Russell

Awesome...

The bolded statement is particularly telling of a losing franchise...

"oh...pfft...they were just LUCKY, its all about luck in the draft!"

No, they weren't. Good teams generally draft well...in a number of areas.

I'm sorry, its true. And its a big reason this team hasn't been in the playoffs for eons.

With or without Peyton Manning.




And about the passing on playoff QBs point, 32 NFL teams passed on some of those guys, some multiple times. Does that mean every team was stupid for letting Tom Brady sit there til the 6th round? Was every team stupid for passing on Russell Wilson or Nick Foles twice? Lot of dumb asses in the NFL apparently.

They look pretty smart now dont they?

b-b-b-but...if they only tanked their season for Jamarcus Russell!!

Many other teams already had their franchise QB...because they didn't wait 9 years between drafting one.

many other teams might not have seen something in them that other teams did.

Many other teams might not have had the urgency that the Bills have had in getting a QB.

Sorry...when you haven't had a QB...and you keep passing over good QB's in favor of DB's....you don't really have room to whine...

When you think like that...you get what you deserve...

end up with the first pick in the draft and draft Jamarcus Russell.

[HAMMER]

Ah so the Colts were just lucky they sucked in 1997 and then again in 2011.

And the Bills were unlucky when they beat the Jets late in 2003.

Got it! :up:

Earlier you were stating that the Colts purposely lost games in 2011 so they could get Luck. Which is it? Fact is Manning got hurt and the Colts couldn't win w/o him. Don't try to spin it to back your argument. Are you related to Op? You are one of the most miserable/negative people imagineable. Why bother following this team that you seem to hate so much? I guess your misery gets compounded due to being a Browns and Bills fan.

[Mr. Pink]

What did I say in the last post. Easy for you to say when you know the outcome, but can you say the same beforehand?

In the case of Roethlisberger vs Losman...absolutely.

And if the Bills don't take a meaningless victory vs the Jets, Roethlisberger is a Bill.

It's the job of those guys in charge to know who you're targeting when the season is over for you and make sure you stay in a place where you can draft that player.

2-14 vs 5-11 at the end of the season means the exact same thing...you're not good enough.

2-14 puts you into position to draft a better player.

Hell in 04 it's 6-10 vs 5-11.

- - - Updated - - -


Earlier you were stating that the Colts purposely lost games in 2011 so they could get Luck. Which is it? Fact is Manning got hurt and the Colts couldn't win w/o him. Don't try to spin it to back your argument. Are you related to Op? You are one of the most miserable/negative people imagineable. Why bother following this team that you seem to hate so much? I guess your misery gets compounded due to being a Browns and Bills fan.

They didn't even attempt to win without him. They went into the season with Curtis Painter at QB.

[better days]

In the case of Roethlisberger vs Losman...absolutely.

And if the Bills don't take a meaningless victory vs the Jets, Roethlisberger is a Bill.

It's the job of those guys in charge to know who you're targeting when the season is over for you and make sure you stay in a place where you can draft that player.

2-14 vs 5-11 at the end of the season means the exact same thing...you're not good enough.

2-14 puts you into position to draft a better player.

Hell in 04 it's 6-10 vs 5-11.

- - - Updated - - -



They didn't even attempt to win without him. They went into the season with Curtis Painter at QB.

Who would you have had the Colts go into that season with at QB other than Painter?

[pmoon6]

In the case of Roethlisberger vs Losman...absolutely.

And if the Bills don't take a meaningless victory vs the Jets, Roethlisberger is a Bill.

It's the job of those guys in charge to know who you're targeting when the season is over for you and make sure you stay in a place where you can draft that player.

2-14 vs 5-11 at the end of the season means the exact same thing...you're not good enough.

2-14 puts you into position to draft a better player.

Hell in 04 it's 6-10 vs 5-11.

- - - Updated - - -



They didn't even attempt to win without him. They went into the season with Curtis Painter at QB."My Grampa, he's 95
But he keeps on dancin'
He's still alive.

My Granma she's 92
She loves to dance
And sing some too.

I don't know
But I been told
If ya keep on Dancin'
You'll never grow old

So, dance, dance, dance
Dance, dance, dance
Dance, dance, dance
All night long."

[Mr. Pink]

Who would you have had the Colts go into that season with at QB other than Painter?

Someone who was better than a guy who hadn't played in 2 years who was 8 of 28 with 2 INTs in his career going into 2011.

Take your pick of pretty much any available NFL QB and you'll find something better than that.

- - - Updated - - -


"My Grampa, he's 95
But he keeps on dancin'
He's still alive.

My Granma she's 92
She loves to dance
And sing some too.

I don't know
But I been told
If ya keep on Dancin'
You'll never grow old

So, dance, dance, dance
Dance, dance, dance
Dance, dance, dance
All night long."

Oh yes, the guy who thinks the NFL is fixed but cannot even fathom that a team would purposely lose games for better draft position. Makes sense to me!

[pmoon6]

Someone who was better than a guy who hadn't played in 2 years who was 8 of 28 with 2 INTs in his career going into 2011.

Take your pick of pretty much any available NFL QB and you'll find something better than that.

- - - Updated - - -



Oh yes, the guy who thinks the NFL is fixed but cannot even fathom that a team would purposely lose games for better draft position. Makes sense to me!:rofl: You're too stupid to breath.

I'm sure Bill Polian hatched the plan in the preseason so he could....wait for it...get fired!!!!!

[Skooby]

:rofl: You're too stupid to breath.

I'm sure Bill Polian hatched the plan in the preseason so he could....wait for it...get fired!!!!!

Peyton is still playing well, so maybe we should always draft last in every round to lower our expectations. We could have the first 15 draft picks, our 3rd rate coaches will still find a way to muck it up.

[Historian]

Those Bills teams of the 80s and 90s were put together with a lot of mid-round talent, that was largely overlooked by most of the league.

Andre Reed
Steve Tasker
Kent Hull
Darryl Talley
Thurman Thomas was a second.

Hell, even Jim Kelly was a 1B.

The problem is not the positioning, it's the scouting.

When Dwight Adams was Director of Pro Personnel, this team was a force, despite drafting at the bottom of the first round every year.

Then Donahoe squeezed him into retirement, replaced all the scouts, and we haven't sniffed the playoffs since.

I don't think people quite understand two things:

1. It's not who you draft, it's how you draft.

2. Your team is built in the second, third and fourth rounds.

So many of the top 5 picks bust far too often, IMO.

I actually want to see us win out.

Perhaps then on draft day, when the Bills pick, they'll have something to talk about, instead of just cutting to a commercial.

[pmoon6]

Peyton is still playing well, so maybe we should always draft last in every round to lower our expectations. We could have the first 15 draft picks, our 3rd rate coaches will still find a way to muck it up.If we have third rate coaches, a crap team, and the Bills will move when Ralph dies, please pick another team.

Maybe you can put your head together with Mr.Pink, Tackling Dummy, Opie and Hurkey and actually come up with a plan and a coherent thought.

[Historian]

Just think about the Bills winning out.....just for one minute.

Overall they would be 7-9

Division they would be 4-2, with a fish sweep, not to mention a defeat of the evil empire in the last week.

I think that translates to a springboard for next season, given that the Bills were really only out of two games all year: Tampa and Pittsburgh.

all the other 14 could have gone either way.

[Skooby]

Just think about the Bills winning out.....just for one minute.

Overall they would be 7-9

Division they would be 4-2, with a fish sweep, not to mention a defeat of the evil empire in the last week.

I think that translates to a springboard for next season, given that the Bills were really only out of two games all year: Tampa and Pittsburgh.

all the other 14 could have gone either way.

You think we beat the Pats with probably a 2nd round bye on the line ? Miami maybe but in NE with EJ playing on a sprained knee ? We had trouble with 3 losing teams in a row & lost 2.

[Mr. Pink]

Just think about the Bills winning out.....just for one minute.

Overall they would be 7-9

Division they would be 4-2, with a fish sweep, not to mention a defeat of the evil empire in the last week.

I think that translates to a springboard for next season, given that the Bills were really only out of two games all year: Tampa and Pittsburgh.

all the other 14 could have gone either way.

This springboard idea is a complete fallacy.

Too bad the Eagles lost their last 3 in 2012 or they could have been much better this year.
Too bad the Chiefs lost their last 4 in 2012 or they could have been much better this year.
Too bad the Lions lost their last 8 in 2012 or they could have rode that momentum into playoff competition this year.
The Cardinals went 1-11 to finish out 2012 and are 9-5 now.

The Browns went 3-3 over their final 6 in 2012 to "springboard" into 4-10
The Redskins won their last 7 games in 2012 to "springboard" into 3-11
The Rams won 4 of their last 6 to go 7-8-1 to springboard into 6-8

I'm sure the point has been proven. There is no "springboard" from season to season, it doesn't exist. What your team does today has no bearing on what it will do next year besides draft position and potentially losing out on a top prospect. Now when you're a good team, like the Redskins were last year, riding that momentum into the playoffs is huge...the goal is to make the playoffs and hopefully be good enough to win the Superbowl. When you're 5-9 going into the final 2 games, winning both or losing both means absolutely nothing in terms of how you will perform the next season.

[Historian]

I didn't say they are going to win Skoob, I said I'm hoping for it.

And Pink, suit yourself, root for a loss. No one is stopping you.

I just think it's more fun this way.

[Dr. Lecter]

I think the most ironic part is that people like Pink root for losses and then ***** about how bad they are when they do lose, followed by patting themselves on the back for predicting they would be bad.

[Historian]

That IS generally the pattern, you are correct.

[Mr. Pink]

I didn't say they are going to win Skoob, I said I'm hoping for it.

And Pink, suit yourself, root for a loss. No one is stopping you.

I just think it's more fun this way.

I'm all for winning early in the season...until the playoffs are out of the equation, winning every game is what a team should strive to do. Once you're out of the playoff picture, the only thing a win or a loss matters on is draft position. This year with where we'll pick and likely who we'll take, it doesn't matter if we're 5-11 or 7-9 in my opinion. I think the pick is either Mack or Clinton Dix...picking 7th or picking 14th won't make a hill of beans as both guys will still be available at either spot or anywhere in between. So basically, I don't care if they win or if they lose. There's nothing to root for either way.

What would be nice to see is if Manuel can play lights out so there isn't a whole offseason of wondering if there should be a QB taken either in the draft or FA to compete with him. Spiller playing to 2012 form and not 2013. Gilmore building upon his last two solid games.

I don't need a win for that type of stuff to show or not show.

[Mr. Pink]

I think the most ironic part is that people like Pink root for losses and then ***** about how bad they are when they do lose, followed by patting themselves on the back for predicting they would be bad.

I root for wins early in the year when they matter. I root for losses if there's a prospect that more losses are needed to acquire them. I root for player progression as the season goes along.

When you're 2-4 winning is still important as you can still make the playoffs. When you're 5-9 winning means nothing.

[mysticsoto]

I'm all for winning early in the season...until the playoffs are out of the equation, winning every game is what a team should strive to do. Once you're out of the playoff picture, the only thing a win or a loss matters on is draft position. This year with where we'll pick and likely who we'll take, it doesn't matter if we're 5-11 or 7-9 in my opinion. I think the pick is either Mack or Clinton Dix...picking 7th or picking 14th won't make a hill of beans as both guys will still be available at either spot or anywhere in between. So basically, I don't care if they win or if they lose. There's nothing to root for either way.

What would be nice to see is if Manuel can play lights out so there isn't a whole offseason of wondering if there should be a QB taken either in the draft or FA to compete with him. Spiller playing to 2012 form and not 2013. Gilmore building upon his last two solid games.

I don't need a win for that type of stuff to show or not show.

That is complete crap. A team fighting to win even when the wins don't count shows that the team has fight in them and goes a long way to showing the character of the players on the team and the we-dont-give-up attitude that we want them to have. You're making an assumption that a few lower draft positions will enable us to draft a better player and that assumption has been proven time and again to be wrong.

Last year we got to choose the 1st QB of the draft and hence had our choice. A few years back we got to pick the 1st DE and went with Maybin (uggghhh) over Orakpo...same with CB when we took McKelvin instead of DRC...

It's not the draft number that have hurt us in as much as the incredibly ******ed choices we've made. Last year/draft was the 1st time I've been pleasantly surprised that they didn't make a bone-headed pick. Let's hope that trend continues...

[Mr. Pink]

That is complete crap. A team fighting to win even when the wins don't count shows that the team has fight in them and goes a long way to showing the character of the players on the team and the we-dont-give-up attitude that we want them to have.

The Redskins fought and fought hard last year...what did that get them this year?

The Chiefs laid down and died last year...where are they this year?

The Rams were mediocre and played well to finish out last year...they're still mediocre.

I wanna see one example of a team who was terrible but went on a little winning streak to finish that season and came out the next year and carried that momentum into anything meaningful the next. I gave 4 examples of teams just last year who finished poorly last year and are good this year. And 2 bad teams who finished strong in comparison who are still bad. As well as one good team last year who is absolute garbage this year.

Heck the Bills won against a division rival in week 17 last year and parlayed that into either a season with an identical record or a worse record. Hate to burst the bubble but they ain't winning in Foxboro. But hey they showed fight in that week 17 matchup vs the Jets last year, right? And that's all that matters!

[Albany,n.y.]

what i cant figure out is why so many ppl cant distinguish btwn what the team has to do and what a fan can do

the team has an obligation to themselves, their teammates, the league, and the fans to try their very best every time

the fans can do w/e the hell they want

so why every time this discussion comes up three-quarters of the posters talk like they are going to be suiting up on sunday

so root for w/e the hell you want. it wont make a lick of difference. unless you have telekinesis powers you can share then what the fk are we doing talking about football lets get our asses to a roulette wheel
I've been saying basically the same thing for years.
Players play to win the game, as Herm Edwards said, but he was at least partially wrong. A man with vision to look beyond today wouldn't have said "You play to win the game", instead he would have said "You play to win the Super Bowl." I as a fan don't have to see my team win every meaningless game as the players must strive to do. Instead I want to see my team win a championship. I could care less about a late December win after the team is out of the playoffs, because my goal as a fan is a title, not getting all giddy over getting win #5 in December.

[Albany,n.y.]

Those Bills teams of the 80s and 90s were put together with a lot of mid-round talent, that was largely overlooked by most of the league.

Andre Reed
Steve Tasker
Kent Hull
Darryl Talley
Thurman Thomas was a second.

Hell, even Jim Kelly was a 1B.

The problem is not the positioning, it's the scouting.

When Dwight Adams was Director of Pro Personnel, this team was a force, despite drafting at the bottom of the first round every year.

Then Donahoe squeezed him into retirement, replaced all the scouts, and we haven't sniffed the playoffs since.

I don't think people quite understand two things:

1. It's not who you draft, it's how you draft.

2. Your team is built in the second, third and fourth rounds.

So many of the top 5 picks bust far too often, IMO.

I actually want to see us win out.

Perhaps then on draft day, when the Bills pick, they'll have something to talk about, instead of just cutting to a commercial.

Bruce Smith was #1 overall & Cornelius Bennett was #2 overall (and we traded a lot to get him). How many of those AFC titles do you think we get without those 2?

[Skooby]

I didn't say they are going to win Skoob, I said I'm hoping for it.

And Pink, suit yourself, root for a loss. No one is stopping you.

I just think it's more fun this way.

Cool, carry on then. I'm just at the point where if they win or lose, we're in deep crap. Our QB can't stay healthy, our WR's are young so we don't know much yet / we're overpaying a whiny-attention seeking baby & we decide to call screens several games too late without the proper in-game adjustments.

If this is progress, then we're worse now than we all have imagined.

[Meathead]

i will ammend my point to say that the team on the field (players & coaches) have to try their best to win every game no matter what, the front office doesnt. some seasons are likely to be wash outs no matter what they do so its prudent to save cap money for acquisitions down the road when the team is closer to contending. or like the pre-luck colts, you can just have fire sales on your best players and cut vets that could help you win to save money, audition young players, and yes to weaken the product on the field. the remaining players/coaches have to try to win (and it would be cheating if they dont) with what they have left, even if everybody knows what the front office is doing. the sabres right now are a great example

but the fans? makes no freakin diff whatsoever wtf they do. unless youre going to the game just to pee on the players heads its impossible your preference will have any impact on the game

[Skooby]

Bruce Smith was #1 overall & Cornelius Bennett was #2 overall (and we traded a lot to get him). How many of those AFC titles do you think we get without those 2?

1, maybe. Bruce sat on Montana's head & without him in that playoff game, we lose.

[mysticsoto]

The Redskins fought and fought hard last year...what did that get them this year?

The Chiefs laid down and died last year...where are they this year?

The Rams were mediocre and played well to finish out last year...they're still mediocre.

I wanna see one example of a team who was terrible but went on a little winning streak to finish that season and came out the next year and carried that momentum into anything meaningful the next. I gave 4 examples of teams just last year who finished poorly last year and are good this year. And 2 bad teams who finished strong in comparison who are still bad. As well as one good team last year who is absolute garbage this year.

Heck the Bills won against a division rival in week 17 last year and parlayed that into either a season with an identical record or a worse record. Hate to burst the bubble but they ain't winning in Foxboro. But hey they showed fight in that week 17 matchup vs the Jets last year, right? And that's all that matters!

I never said how they finish this year has anything to do with wins/losses next year. But getting EJ and young rookies on the team more experience is a no-brainer. They need to play, and considering that there is no playoff possibility allows them to experiment more and be riskier. In my opinion, they should open it up and let EJ throw some bombs. When EJ sticks to the short stuff, we get eaten alive. The minute he opens up (like he did against the Jets and 2nd half of the JAX game) things open up. They need to start working on getting better at some plays also. Our screens need work, and we should be using them more considering we have great RBs with good hands. There's a number of things we can do to try and get better and use the final 2 games to improve.

As a TRUE fan of the Bills, I just can't see how you can root for them to lose...especially against our own AFC East Rivals. That's just completely and utterly disgusting to me...

[Dr. Lecter]

1, maybe. Bruce sat on Montana's head & without him in that playoff game, we lose.


The game was pretty much over before that happened. Thurman killed them that game.

[Skooby]

The game was pretty much over before that happened. Thurman killed them that game.

Bruce helped make sure that was the last play & his body of work before that was impressive. To be clear, the game was over when that happened (I was there & it was freezing).

[Mr. Pink]

I never said how they finish this year has anything to do with wins/losses next year. But getting EJ and young rookies on the team more experience is a no-brainer. They need to play, and considering that there is no playoff possibility allows them to experiment more and be riskier. In my opinion, they should open it up and let EJ throw some bombs. When EJ sticks to the short stuff, we get eaten alive. The minute he opens up (like he did against the Jets and 2nd half of the JAX game) things open up. They need to start working on getting better at some plays also. Our screens need work, and we should be using them more considering we have great RBs with good hands. There's a number of things we can do to try and get better and use the final 2 games to improve.

As a TRUE fan of the Bills, I just can't see how you can root for them to lose...especially against our own AFC East Rivals. That's just completely and utterly disgusting to me...

I want the team to make the playoffs. When that possibility is gone, I want them to put themselves into the best possible situations to acquire the additional pieces needed to get there. Meaningless victories on the field over this 14 years of suck have kept this team from acquiring better pieces. 2 examples are Ben Roethlisberger and Patrick Willis. The Bills brass liked both of them but couldn't get either one because of a late season meaningless victory.

I won't speculate on late season victories on coulda shoulda players as I don't know if the guys in charge even had them on the radar but we all know the Bills liked both Big Ben and Willis.

And you did claim you'd rather see fight then laying down...I would have preferred them straight up laying down a game in both of those years aforementioned to acquire Ben and Patrick. Of course, if they did draft Ben, they would have never been in position to draft Patrick Willis but still.

And personally I don't care if guys like Legursky, Summers, Easley, Graham, Unga, Urbik, Brooks have a "we-don't-give-up-attitude" or not. They're all easily replaceable.

[Historian]

Bruce Smith was #1 overall & Cornelius Bennett was #2 overall (and we traded a lot to get him). How many of those AFC titles do you think we get without those 2?

It took a 2-14 season to land Smith, and they were 2-14 his first year.

Sorry, I don't see that as progress.

And gee....who did the Rams take with the Bills #1 picks....Gaston Green and Cleveland Gary. (remember him?)

It's not where you draft it's who you draft.

[mysticsoto]

I want the team to make the playoffs. When that possibility is gone, I want them to put themselves into the best possible situations to acquire the additional pieces needed to get there. Meaningless victories on the field over this 14 years of suck have kept this team from acquiring better pieces. 2 examples are Ben Roethlisberger and Patrick Willis. The Bills brass liked both of them but couldn't get either one because of a late season meaningless victory.

I won't speculate on late season victories on coulda shoulda players as I don't know if the guys in charge even had them on the radar but we all know the Bills liked both Big Ben and Willis.

And you did claim you'd rather see fight then laying down...I would have preferred them straight up laying down a game in both of those years aforementioned to acquire Ben and Patrick. Of course, if they did draft Ben, they would have never been in position to draft Patrick Willis but still.

And personally I don't care if guys like Legursky, Summers, Easley, Graham, Unga, Urbik, Brooks have a "we-don't-give-up-attitude" or not. They're all easily replaceable.

And what about EJ's development? Basically, you're saying, 'screw your development, EJ...just lay down and get more much needed game practice next year". Maybe you don't care about those names above...how about Woods? How about Goodwin? How about getting the defense to gel better together rather than the spotty play they currently are giving?

What about the examples I gave where we drafted a position and had our pick of whoever we wanted? QB last year? Had we finished worse, we would have drafted EJ higher and had to pay him more. What about McKelvin? Maybin? Look at the millions we wasted on Mike Williams and then ended up dumping him and taking a hit that year and the year after he was gone. How much $$$ and possibly better Free agents did that cost us?

The Pats have been picking late 1st round for a number of years now...why are they still on top of their game? By your way of thinking, they should be among the bottom by now...

[Skooby]

It took a 2-14 season to land Smith, and they were 2-14 his first year.

Sorry, I don't see that as progress.

And gee....who did the Rams take with the Bills #1 picks....Gaston Green and Cleveland Gary. (remember him?)

It's not where you draft it's who you draft.

The colleges do a better job of preparing more players to be NFL ready early in the draft, that being said there's no sure thing.

[better days]

The colleges do a better job of preparing more players to be NFL ready early in the draft, that being said there's no sure thing.

I don't think it is the Colleges getting players more NFL prepared so much as it is NFL teams adjusting their game to be more like the College game.

[Albany,n.y.]

It took a 2-14 season to land Smith, and they were 2-14 his first year.

Sorry, I don't see that as progress.

And gee....who did the Rams take with the Bills #1 picks....Gaston Green and Cleveland Gary. (remember him?)

It's not where you draft it's who you draft.

Since progress is not measured in one season, progress was definitely there as the team went from 1984 to 1988 2-14, 2-14, 4-12, 6-6 (real team) & 12-4. It all started when Bruce Smith was drafted.
In 1985 there was only 1 team that could draft Bruce Smith.

[BillsFever21]

I don't think it is the Colleges getting players more NFL prepared so much as it is NFL teams adjusting their game to be more like the College game.

I think it's a little bit of both but more the NFL adjusting to the college game. Players are being prepared better even much earlier then college.

[Mr. Pink]

And what about EJ's development? Basically, you're saying, 'screw your development, EJ...just lay down and get more much needed game practice next year". Maybe you don't care about those names above...how about Woods? How about Goodwin? How about getting the defense to gel better together rather than the spotty play they currently are giving?

What about the examples I gave where we drafted a position and had our pick of whoever we wanted? QB last year? Had we finished worse, we would have drafted EJ higher and had to pay him more. What about McKelvin? Maybin? Look at the millions we wasted on Mike Williams and then ended up dumping him and taking a hit that year and the year after he was gone. How much $$$ and possibly better Free agents did that cost us?

The Pats have been picking late 1st round for a number of years now...why are they still on top of their game? By your way of thinking, they should be among the bottom by now...

No. They have Tom Brady. Get the QB and the rest of the pieces are minimally important. Teams with great QBs get by on their rest of the team being average. Look at Green Bay, with and without Rodgers. Great team with Rodgers, terrible without.

One can even argue that one meaningless victory in 03 could have prevented the past decade of suck because we all know what Big Ben has done while on the field.

Yeah, the Bills had their pick of QB last year, in an absolutely putrid QB class. They could have traded down some more and still got Manuel. There were teams that even graded him out as a third rounder. Better Days will disagree with Jerry Jones draft board on that one but he it's still a fact.

And if the Bills were worse in 09 maybe they take Tyson Jackson or BJ Raji instead, 2 DL who went before Maybin.

You're also speculating that McKelvin and Maybin were number 1 on their overall draft board. They did miss on Mike Williams completely, I'll agree there that no matter where they picked if Williams was on the board, he would have been drafted.

BTW EJ and other guys can still play well without winning the game...just as much as they can play poorly and win the game. Case in point...EJ played like dog crap against Baltimore - W. EJ played well against Atlanta - L.

[cookie G]

Those Bills teams of the 80s and 90s were put together with a lot of mid-round talent, that was largely overlooked by most of the league.

Andre Reed
Steve Tasker
Kent Hull
Darryl Talley
Thurman Thomas was a second.

Hell, even Jim Kelly was a 1B.

The problem is not the positioning, it's the scouting.

When Dwight Adams was Director of Pro Personnel, this team was a force, despite drafting at the bottom of the first round every year.

Then Donahoe squeezed him into retirement, replaced all the scouts, and we haven't sniffed the playoffs since.

I don't think people quite understand two things:

1. It's not who you draft, it's how you draft.

2. Your team is built in the second, third and fourth rounds.

So many of the top 5 picks bust far too often, IMO.

I actually want to see us win out.

Perhaps then on draft day, when the Bills pick, they'll have something to talk about, instead of just cutting to a commercial.

You don't have to go back to the '85 draft.. there are some modern examples.

Baltimore has had one top 10 pick since 2000...Terrell Suggs at no. 10, a long time ago. 13 of 14 drafts without a top 10 pick...and they've rebuilt their team several times over. Because Ozzie knows how to draft. Hell, they lost 2 HOF defenders, their best LB and one of their corners in one season..and they are STILL a top 10 defense. And yet...they normally draft towards the bottom of the first.

The closest Pitt has got to the top 10 was when they drafted Roethlesberger.. at no. 11. Like Baltimore, they've been picking in the teens to the lower end of the 1st. Like Baltimore, they've rebuilt their roster several times. This is the first year in a long while where they haven't been good.

Teams that draft in the top 10...well...many do it nearly every year..

Every so often, Cinci and Zona make a bump. They usually end up where they started. (But at least they've been to the playoffs lately. In that time frame where the Ravens have had 1 top 10 pick and the Steelers 0:

The Raiders have had 6, including 3 picks in the top 5;
The Browns have had an astonishing 8 picks in the top 10, not including Couch, who was taken in 1999;
The Jags had 7 picks in the top 10, and they will be there again;
The Bengals, 7 picks..and they only got good in the last few years;
The cards...7 picks;
The Bills...5;

I agree that you can build your roster in the middle rounds...but hell...even when you look at the first round..the same teams with top 5 picks just keep popping up over and over.



Who you draft is a big part of it.

Understanding priorities is another part of it.

The latter part ...the Bills have been so out of whack for years..

[cookie G]

Bruce Smith was #1 overall & Cornelius Bennett was #2 overall (and we traded a lot to get him). How many of those AFC titles do you think we get without those 2?


They traded for Bennett, they didn't draft him, much less tank a season for him. Not much different that trading for a Pro Bowl player. Had they "tanked the season" for Bennett..well..they wouldn't have...

Under the ..."tank one for the team" logic, Bruce would have been a very good player on a very bad team.

But as Historian pointed out...it wasn't just Bruce, it never was just about Bruce.

In those few years a list of players the Bills drafted who made at least one Pro Bowl:

Andre Reed -eventual HOF
Will Wolford- 2 PB's
Howard Ballard - 2 PBs
Shane Conlan - 3 PB's
Nate Odomes- 2 PB's
Thurman Thomas- a jillion PB's...HOF'er

That doesn't include a Kent Hull...a multiple PB'er, who was signed as a free agent;
or James Lofton, another FA;

Nor does that list include a number of players who played a very large role in the SB years...

Jamie Mueller and Carwell Gardner...two of the best blocking FB's in the league
Nor does it include Metzelars or McKellar.

Out of all that...there is one pick that was the no. 1 pick.

I mean if you really think the Bills went to 4 SB's only because they drafted Bruce at no. 1...

[coastal]

Why do I want them to lose?

to show everyone what they really are... the NFL's worst organization. By doing so... perhaps everyone stops BUYING the product and by doing so, real change finally happens.

That real change is competence from top to bottom.

but coastal... if we do that, Ralph will move the team?!

That very well may happen and be already a foregone conclusion for all we know.

well I say you all can kiss my ass, because I'm not afraid to tell some greasy old owner, and his board of wealthy hanger-ons to go **** themselves and their ****ty ass product.

rooting for them to lose?

you bet your ass, because nothing about this team represents me or the city I grew up in and love.

hosers.

[SpikedLemonade]

I miss those years.

[SquishDaFish]

You need to move on to another organization coastal.

[SpikedLemonade]

Why do I want them to lose?

to show everyone what they really are... the NFL's worst organization. By doing so... perhaps everyone stops BUYING the product and by doing so, real change finally happens.

That real change is competence from top to bottom.

but coastal... if we do that, Ralph will move the team?!

That very well may happen and be already a foregone conclusion for all we know.

well I say you all can kiss my ass, because I'm not afraid to tell some greasy old owner, and his board of wealthy hanger-ons to go **** themselves and their ****ty ass product.

rooting for them to lose?

you bet your ass, because nothing about this team represents me or the city I grew up in and love.

hosers.

Your Polish Nana is going to disown you.

[coastal]

I do not know where this pseudo-intellectual desire to see this team lose came from or how anybody can see it as a legitimate stance to take (especially those that have played competitive sports in the past), but it is time for them to honestly open their eyes and realize what playing sports is all about.

Throughout the history of competitive sports and its associated fandom, one thing has been a constant. Each and every contest is battle between two conflicting sides who each have one goal in mind - to win the damn game. All sporting events are a time for these conflicting sides to battle to the end, until there is a winner declared. This applies whether it is a team sport, such as football or baseball, or individual sports, such as boxing or golf. We demand, or should demand, that all athletes competing in these events put all of their competitive energy into winning these contests.

This pining to see the Bills lose their games is the complete opposite to what sports is all about. The great thing about sports is that is the ultimate battle between two opposing sides who each have the same goal in mind and that we, as fans, know only one can be successful. The claim to be a fan of sports, while rooting for your team to lose is not only counter productive, but it is also falling into the collective mindset that saying something that sounds absurd on its surface must be a sign of great intellect or of thinking things out more than others. The simple fact of the matter is that it is quite possible to build successful teams without drafting in the top 10 or top 5. And it is even more possible to build horrendous teams despite constantly having these top picks. Enjoy your self gratification and pat yourselves on the backs as some grandiose group on intellectuals that can see why losing is good. Because you are wrong. This team has lost too damn much in the past to think that works.

This week they are playing the Miami Dolphins, with a chance to put a severe damper on Miami getting into the post season. As I do every week, I will root for the Bills. That is a felling that is only amplified when they are playing the Dolphins. Nothing would be better than to watch the Bills beat Miami and help them have their season over as of December 29th.

So continue to root for the Bills to lose, while simultaneously saying you are a Bills fan, under the false pretense that a better draft position is all worth it. This team has been drafting in the top 12 for most of the last 14 years and it has not done a damn thing. Maybe it makes you feel smarter. Maybe it makes you feel like you have “sacrificed” something for the greater good. At it really shows is that you don’t get a damn thing about what sports is all about.

And that is, quite simply, winning every damn chance you get.

Here is to the Bills helping knock the Dolphins out of the playoff chase

Go Bills
What an absolute ****ing homo.

[SpikedLemonade]

What an absolute ****ing homo.

I have met him and he's a nice guy. I support his right to marry whoever or whatever he wants.

[coastal]

Your Polish Nana is going to disown you.
I buried her years ago in her plastic couch covering.

- - - Updated - - -


I have met him and he's a nice guy. I support his right to marry whoever or whatever he wants.
I let him play with my wife in bed.

His choice of games?

Scrabble.

nuff said.

[Mace]

I have met him and he's a nice guy. I support his right to marry whoever or whatever he wants.

Every once in a while, maybe twice in a while, you make me laugh like a little kid. Hope your Holidays are bestest, Spiked.

[YardRat]

well I say you all can kiss my ass, because I'm not afraid to tell some greasy old owner, and his board of wealthy hanger-ons to go **** themselves and their ****ty ass product.


Apparently you are, otherwise you wouldn't still be here.

[Mace]

Apparently you are, otherwise you wouldn't still be here.

He sooooooo still loves them. Make your pick on whether he was wearing his Bills hat, drinking from his Bills cup or wearing his faded Bills zubaz when he posted.

My pick is the zubaz.:drunks:

[YardRat]

He sooooooo still loves them. Make your pick on whether he was wearing his Bills hat, drinking from his Bills cup or wearing his faded Bills zubaz when he posted.

My pick is the zubaz.:drunks:

I'm calling all three.

[Dr. Lecter]

What an absolute ****ing homo.

And you got your ass kicked by this homo.

How does it feel?

[Dr. Lecter]

Why do I want them to lose?

to show everyone what they really are... the NFL's worst organization. By doing so... perhaps everyone stops BUYING the product and by doing so, real change finally happens.

That real change is competence from top to bottom.

but coastal... if we do that, Ralph will move the team?!

That very well may happen and be already a foregone conclusion for all we know.

well I say you all can kiss my ass, because I'm not afraid to tell some greasy old owner, and his board of wealthy hanger-ons to go **** themselves and their ****ty ass product.

rooting for them to lose?

you bet your ass, because nothing about this team represents me or the city I grew up in and love.

hosers.

Good for you, but what you are actually rooting for to be proven right. Why?

because if they win, then they are not the worst organization. So basically, if they lose, you can puff out your chest and say that this team sucks and the organization is better.

If they win and are successful then you can't say that.

So this is really not about them being the worst organization, because if they win you have been shot down.

So what is this really about? What would be wrong with them winning?

Wouldn't you rather be wrong?

[Meathead]

The Pats have been picking late 1st round for a number of years now...why are they still on top of their game?

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSOP-HgsxlfCrZDxsZOd0M7UHlVwbq0EyK913OARq61AkM2oTPF8g
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[Historian]

Why do I want them to lose?

to show everyone what they really are... the NFL's worst organization. .

I think that's been done, don't you?

The Bills have officially been the league's laughingstock certainly since Jauron left....maybe before. (I look back at that Monday night home loss to Dallas as the low point)

I just think it's time to begin the climb back to respectabliity. I believe it's already begun.

[jamze132]

In the case of Roethlisberger vs Losman...absolutely.

And if the Bills don't take a meaningless victory vs the Jets, Roethlisberger is a Bill.

It's the job of those guys in charge to know who you're targeting when the season is over for you and make sure you stay in a place where you can draft that player.

2-14 vs 5-11 at the end of the season means the exact same thing...you're not good enough.

2-14 puts you into position to draft a better player.

Hell in 04 it's 6-10 vs 5-11.

- - - Updated - - -



They didn't even attempt to win without him. They went into the season with Curtis Painter at QB.

Who's to say that Raplesburger would have had the same success in Buffalo as he did in Pittsburgh?

[coastal]

I just think it's time to begin the climb back to respectabliity. I believe it's already begun.what would make you think that?

[coastal]

Good for you, but what you are actually rooting for to be proven right. Why?
I thought i made it clear what I'm rooting for and why.

and if the Bills were winning... in the playoffs... do you think I would give one flying **** about being wrong... or do you think I would openly admit my intellectual gaffe and join the party?

the problem with this question is we both know the reality.

all 14 years of it.

[Historian]

what would make you think that?

The Bills were really only blown out of two games this year...Pittsburgh and Tampa.

They played hard in every other game, and won a few.

Some of the problems that contributed to the nine losses were correctable, IMO.

Turnovers.

Line depth.

QB carousel.

I feel your pain, Coastal. I've been watching this team trip over the 40 yard line since 1967.

I can generally tell you when they've flatlined. I just don't see that here....yet. I think 2014 will be pivotal, but in the meantime, with the potential to go 7-9 or 6-10 in the first year after wholesale changes, I think shows progress. (albeit small)

Even the great Chuck Knox only went 5-11 his first year here, then 7-9 his second.

What bothers me about Buffalo, is how low they usually sink. Bottom basement, top five draft pick three years in a row, before climbing back to respectability.

Whereas a Pittsburg or New York have one bad year, retool, and are back in the hunt the next year.

That's what pisses me off. And that's on the front office, but my point is, in coming out of the abyss, it takes longer to dig out, so to speak.

Does that make any sense?

[chernobylwraiths]

There is a legitimate arguement for losing to Miami at least. While I am an old timer and have always hated Miami, losing to them but beating New England could put New England out of the playoffs. I think I would like that a lot more.

[coastal]

The Bills were really only blown out of two games this year...Pittsburgh and Tampa.

They played hard in every other game, and won a few.

Some of the problems that contributed to the nine losses were correctable, IMO.

Turnovers.

Line depth.

QB carousel.

I feel your pain, Coastal. I've been watching this team trip over the 40 yard line since 1967.

I can generally tell you when they've flatlined. I just don't see that here....yet. I think 2014 will be pivotal, but in the meantime, with the potential to go 7-9 or 6-10 in the first year after wholesale changes, I think shows progress. (albeit small)

Even the great Chuck Knox only went 5-11 his first year here, then 7-9 his second.

What bothers me about Buffalo, is how low they usually sink. Bottom basement, top five draft pick three years in a row, before climbing back to respectability.

Whereas a Pittsburg or New York have one bad year, retool, and are back in the hunt the next year.

That's what pisses me off. And that's on the front office, but my point is, in coming out of the abyss, it takes longer to dig out, so to speak.

Does that make any sense?
Not a lick.

The problem with the Bills is organizational dysfunction. It's just bad management. It's the only explanation for the on field product year after year.

thats how I'm looking at this, and as such... ask yourself this.

is Russ Brandon real change?

from what I've seen and heard... the guy is a total tool.

[X-Era]

There is a legitimate arguement for losing to Miami at least. While I am an old timer and have always hated Miami, losing to them but beating New England could put New England out of the playoffs. I think I would like that a lot more.That's the closest I could come to wanting Miami to beat us.

Maybe it's mental masturbation but I have an easier time with not minding if the Bills lost this week than in rooting for Miami to win. It's the same thing. Just doesn't seem the same to me.

[DraftBoy]

There is a legitimate arguement for losing to Miami at least. While I am an old timer and have always hated Miami, losing to them but beating New England could put New England out of the playoffs. I think I would like that a lot more.

No sir, win on Sunday and kick the Phish out of the postseason.

[X-Era]

Not a lick.

The problem with the Bills is organizational dysfunction. It's just bad management. It's the only explanation for the on field product year after year.

thats how I'm looking at this, and as such... ask yourself this.

is Russ Brandon real change?

from what I've seen and heard... the guy is a total tool.I tell you what he didn't do... Leave no check unwritten.

No point in sitting 18 mill under the cap and starting Legursky... or having no proven vet depth at a whole host of positions.

And before anyone claims we had no choice because the pool dried up... that's where Coastal is right. If you let that happen, you can't manage. If you know you're losing Levitre, you go into FA with a plan to fill it. And then you execute that plan. And there was no plan to upgrade the depth. That has been clear for years. Every year they expect un-drafted rookies or lat round picks to be primary backups and every year it costs us. That's also poor management when you have so much cap room.

[DraftBoy]

Not a lick.

The problem with the Bills is organizational dysfunction. It's just bad management. It's the only explanation for the on field product year after year.

thats how I'm looking at this, and as such... ask yourself this.

is Russ Brandon real change?

from what I've seen and heard... the guy is a total tool.

When did Russ Brandon truly take over?

[coastal]

When did Russ Brandon truly take over?
7 years ago.

[coastal]

I tell you what he didn't do... Leave no check unwritten.

No point in sitting 18 mill under the cap and starting Legursky... or having no proven vet depth at a whole host of positions.

And before anyone claims we had no choice because the pool dried up... that's where Coastal is right. If you let that happen, you can't manage. If you know you're losing Levitre, you go into FA with a plan to fill it. And then you execute that plan. And there was no plan to upgrade the depth. That has been clear for years. Every year they expect un-drafted rookies or lat round picks to be primary backups and every year it costs us. That's also poor management when you have so much cap room.
From what I've been told, we didn't even offer him a contract.

[Historian]

Not a lick.

The problem with the Bills is organizational dysfunction. It's just bad management. It's the only explanation for the on field product year after year.

thats how I'm looking at this, and as such... ask yourself this.

is Russ Brandon real change?

from what I've seen and heard... the guy is a total tool.

Listen, NOBODY hates Russ Brandon more than I.

We had a personal exchange a few years back, that left a real sour taste in my mouth, so when I call him an idiot, I know it first hand.

But that doesn't change the fact that the product on the field has improved, albeit ever so slightly, despite the fact that the clown went and hired his buddy, after a supposed "exhaustive" search.

Is Brandon an *******?

Yes.

Is this team better than Chan's team.

Yes.

[coastal]

Listen, NOBODY hates Russ Brandon more than I.

We had a personal exchange a few years back, that left a real sour taste in my mouth, so when I call him an idiot, I know it first hand.

But that doesn't change the fact that the product on the field has improved, albeit ever so slightly, despite the fact that the clown went and hired his buddy, after a supposed "exhaustive" search.

Is Brandon an *******?

Yes.

Is this team better than Chan's team.

Yes.
My hope is we find a QB and the long litany of poor management becomes moot.

Either that or we finally invest in a real oline and pound the rock.

im not holding my breath.

as far as your encounter... by all means please share.

[Skooby]

Listen, NOBODY hates Russ Brandon more than I.

We had a personal exchange a few years back, that left a real sour taste in my mouth, so when I call him an idiot, I know it first hand.

But that doesn't change the fact that the product on the field has improved, albeit ever so slightly, despite the fact that the clown went and hired his buddy, after a supposed "exhaustive" search.

Is Brandon an *******?

Yes.

Is this team better than Chan's team.

Yes.
He's calling this the way it is but we're still going nowhere.

[Historian]

That's a matter of opinion, Skoob.

[Skooby]

That's a matter of opinion, Skoob.

14 consecutive years of them.

[Dr. Lecter]

14 consecutive years of them.


Chan has been gone for 14 years?

[DraftBoy]

7 years ago.

And that is substantiated by?

[Skooby]

Chan has been gone for 14 years?

No but the same tools remain from too long ago.

[coastal]

And that is substantiated by?
Common sense.

[Mr. Pink]

Who's to say that Raplesburger would have had the same success in Buffalo as he did in Pittsburgh?

Who's to say he wouldn't? They were a run heavy team with a strong defense when he got there. What would the Bills have been in 05? Run heavy with a strong defense. Hell throughout Losman's tenure here, the team was run heavy because Losman was a bum and Jauron hid him as much as possible. Mularkey likely wouldn't have been fired and Jauron/Gailey would have never happened. By now, Mularkey might have moved on to something different though.

Pittsburgh O-line hasn't been impressive while Roethlisberger has been there.

There's not a whole heck of a lot of difference between the two teams back in 04/05 to be honest, outside of bum QB vs franchise QB.

[Mr. Pink]

Chan has been gone for 14 years?

Does it matter?

From Jauron to Gailey to Marrone...there is no improvement over that time period.

This team is no better today than it was opening day 2005. At best you can argue it's equal.

[gebobs]

I never root for the Bills to lose and especially not for draft position. It's pretty much a lock they'll eff up any draft.