This game v. the Patriots feels like the most important game of the last 10 years [Archive] - BillsZone.com

JohnnyGold

12-23-2013, 02:02 PM

I have no idea why I feel this way, and just wanted to know if anyone else does?

(Full disclaimer: I live in the the Patriots market, and am surrounded by Patriots fans. Although I grew up in the era when the Dolphins were our biggest rival, to me, I will always hate the Patriots more than any other team in any other sport. Their fans are terrible, and in all honesty, the Giants beating the Patriots in the Super Bowl to ruin the 19-0 season is my greatest memory as a Bills fan.)

But, all hate for the Patriots aside, this game feels enormous.

A win would mean so much to/for the Buffalo Bills... off the top of my head:

*It would be the first 3 game win streak the Bills have had since the start of the 2011 season (3-0 start with wins over the Chiefs, Raiders and Patriots).

*It not only would put us at 4-2 in the division, but would also give the Bills a 4 game winning streak in the division AND would give Marrone a 3-0 record against teams he's facing for the second time.

*It would improve EJ's record as a starter to 5-5, with a 2 point loss to the Patriots, a 7 point loss to the Jets, and a 3 point loss to the Falcons.
(As an aside, I'm fully aware that some of our wins could have just as easily been losses).

*A good showing by EJ would mean that he essentially put up only 2 "duds" his rookie year--a game against Pittsburgh (coming back after 5 weeks out due to injury) and an absolutely inexcusably terrible loss in Tampa. Really though, if we're being optimistic, you could look at the Bucs game as his only bad outing of the season. Ill take those odds.

* A win over the Patriots to send them to 10-6 and us to 7-9 doesn't get us into the playoffs, but the Patriots aren't getting any younger (Brady), and we're not getting any worse. You would have to like our odds to close a 3 game gap next season, if EJ stayed healthy for the entire year.

* A win over the Patriots would also mean this, and it's perhaps the most important part. If the Patriots had missed that field goal against us week 1, they would finish 9-7, and we would have finished 8-8 with the tie breaker. That's the difference between us and them going into next season. 1 game... 1 game after a year where EJ was out for 6 games.

*The Bills have never (I believe) won in Gillette Stadium. A win there would at least get that monkey off our back going into next season.

* A Bills win coupled with either a Colts win over the Jaguars (likely) or a Bengals win over the Ravens (possible) means that New England is a wild card team. Which means the Patriots are going to be playing this game as if it were their playoffs. There will be no excuses if they lose to Buffalo, which would make a Bills win that much sweeter.

*This is a borderline nationally televised game--don't jump down my throat, I know it's not technically a prime time affair, but the entire NFL world will be watching to see what happens in both New England and Denver on Sunday afternoon, and there's a reason the league flexed it to 4:30. A game like this could serve notice that the Bills are a young team on the rise, a force to be reckoned with in the future. These are the kinds of wins that would get us the Thanksgiving game at Detroit next season (as opposed to the Dolphins). These are the kinds of wins that could get a Monday night game at the Ralph.

Now, after all that is said--being a life long Bills fan, I fully expect to be staring at my TV next Sunday at 7pm watching the Bills go through the motions in the fourth quarter at the wrong end of a 42-17 beat down.

HOWEVER--this is one of those moments. Perhaps more than any other game this season, this is a referendum on the current state of the Bills. I am amped for this game, big time. This could be the Jordan-led-Bulls-beating-the-Pistons-on-their-court moment that we've been waiting for for a decade and a half. It probably won't be: it'll probably be more Bills heart ache.

But for some reason, this time just feels different. I'm not thinking to myself "wouldn't it be nice if the Bills won this?"

I'm thinking to myself......

Bills 38
Patriots 7

justasportsfan

12-23-2013, 02:04 PM

I want EJ to go into next season KNOWING he sucks so both he and coaching seeks all the help he can get.

trapezeus

12-23-2013, 02:07 PM

I have no idea why I feel this way, and just wanted to know if anyone else does?

(Full disclaimer: I live in the the Patriots market, and am surrounded by Patriots fans. Although I grew up in the era when the Dolphins were our biggest rival, to me, I will always hate the Patriots more than any other team in any other sport. Their fans are terrible, and in all honesty, the Giants beating the Patriots in the Super Bowl to ruin the 19-0 season is my greatest memory as a Bills fan.)

But, all hate for the Patriots aside, this game feels enormous.

A win would mean so much to/for the Buffalo Bills... off the top of my head:

*It would be the first 3 game win streak the Bills have had since the start of the 2011 season (3-0 start with wins over the Chiefs, Raiders and Patriots).

*It not only would put us at 4-2 in the division, but would also give the Bills a 4 game winning streak in the division AND would give Marrone a 3-0 record against teams he's facing for the second time.

*It would improve EJ's record as a starter to 5-5, with a 2 point loss to the Patriots, a 7 point loss to the Jets, and a 3 point loss to the Falcons.
(As an aside, I'm fully aware that some of our wins could have just as easily been losses).

*A good showing by EJ would mean that he essentially put up 2 "duds" this year--a game against Pittsburgh (coming back after 5 weeks out due to injury) and an absolutely inexcusably terrible loss in Tampa. Really though, if we're being optimistic, you could look at the Bucs game as his only bad outing of the season. Ill take those odds.

* A win over the Patriots to send them to 10-6 and us to 7-9 doesn't get us into the playoffs, but the Patriots aren't getting any younger (Brady), and we're not getting any worse. You would have to like our odds to close a 3 game gap next season, if EJ stayed healthy for the entire year.

* A win over the Patriots would also mean this, and it's perhaps the most important part. If the Patriots had missed that field goal against us week 1, they would finish 9-7, and we would have finished 8-8 with the tie breaker. That's the difference between us and them going into next season. 1 game... 1 game after a year where EJ was out for 6 games.

*The Bills have never (I believe) won in Gillette Stadium. A win there would at least get that monkey off our back going into next season.

* A Bills win coupled with either a Colts win over the Jaguars (likely) or a Bengals win over the Ravens (possible) means that New England is a wild card team. Which means the Patriots are going to be playing this game as if it were their playoffs. There will be no excuses if they lose to Buffalo, which would make a Bills win that much sweeter.

*This is a borderline nationally televised game--don't jump down my throat, I know it's not technically a prime time affair, but the entire NFL world will be watching to see what happens in both New England and Denver on Sunday afternoon, and there's a reason the league flexed it to 4:30. A game like this could serve notice that the Bills are a young team on the rise, a force to be reckoned with in the future. These are the kinds of wins that would get us the Thanksgiving game at Detroit next season (as opposed to the Dolphins). These are the kinds of wins that could get a Monday night game at the Ralph.

Now, after all that is said--being a life long Bills fan, I fully expect to be staring at my TV next Sunday at 7pm watching the Bills go through the motions in the fourth quarter at the wrong end of a 42-17 beat down.

HOWEVER--this is one of those moments. Perhaps more than any other game this season, this is a referendum on the current state of the Bills. I am amped for this game, big time. This could be the Jordan-led-Bulls-beating-the-Pistons-on-their-court moment that we've been waiting for for a decade and a half. It probably won't be: it'll probably be more Bills heart ache.

But for some reason, this time just feels different. I'm not thinking to myself "wouldn't it be nice if the Bills won this?"

I'm thinking to myself......

Bills 38
Patriots 7

I agree with the bolded part above. if the bills win this game, it's huge in terms of shaking off those terrible games against atl and tampa. but it will hurt that one win there and we might have been in the playoffs or two wins there definitely got us into the conversation.

but if EJ really struggles on the road, it really cements in my mind that the bills need another QB who is going to push him. if he plays really well, then i will be somewhat ok with him bringing him and thad in as the only options next year.

i definitely don't think the bills will be in blowout mode. because the pats have a magical way to turn things around in the second half when playing at home. it's almost like someone is sending them the plays that hte opposition is running....oh wait, that's exactly whats happening.

GingerP

12-23-2013, 02:08 PM

Your math is off. The Pats already won 11 games. They already won the division, they can't be a wild card.

I disagree, I don't think this is as big a game as you are making it out to be. Granted, it would mean a lot for the Bills to beat the Pats at any time, but it doesn't change anything this year, and next year will be a new year either way.

Mr. Pink

12-23-2013, 02:12 PM

This game is absolutely meaningless.

trapezeus

12-23-2013, 02:17 PM

This game is absolutely meaningless.

it can be seen that way. but if the bills beat a good team on the road and EJ looks like an NFL quarterback, then we can talk about high ceilings, etc. And we can get back to looking at drafting pieces needed to get us better like OLB and OL as opposed to considering a QB if there is one there when we pick.

if he blows, then EJ looks like a guy who can compete against the weaker half of NFL teams, but struggles against the best. he'll essentially be losman but who isn't as unnecessarily cocky. and to pass on a high level talent that could be better than EJ would be like passing on rodgers and cutler because we had losman.

To that extent this game is important in gauging him what uphill battle the bills need to fight. and beating the pats in foxboro will mean the pats are going into the playoffs at an alltime low. and the idea of brady losing in the first round of the playoffs brings me untold joy.

Mr. Pink

12-23-2013, 02:24 PM

it can be seen that way. but if the bills beat a good team on the road and EJ looks like an NFL quarterback, then we can talk about high ceilings, etc. And we can get back to looking at drafting pieces needed to get us better like OLB and OL as opposed to considering a QB if there is one there when we pick.

if he blows, then EJ looks like a guy who can compete against the weaker half of NFL teams, but struggles against the best. he'll essentially be losman but who isn't as unnecessarily cocky. and to pass on a high level talent that could be better than EJ would be like passing on rodgers and cutler because we had losman.

To that extent this game is important in gauging him what uphill battle the bills need to fight. and beating the pats in foxboro will mean the pats are going into the playoffs at an alltime low. and the idea of brady losing in the first round of the playoffs brings me untold joy.

I will agree if they win people can talk up EJ like he's gonna be great. Win or lose though really makes no bearing on what EJ is gonna end up being next year however. And I'm sure the franchise isn't going to base their offseason moves on if they beat the Pats or not. Plus with roster turnover among other things there is no gaining momentum to carry over into next year either.

The only meaning this game really has is to make people feel good that they beat the Pats and finished 4-2 in the division for 2013. They could just easily go out next year and go 2-4 in the division or 5-1 next year regardless of what happens Sunday.

I don't get why people tie so much importance to a game that has virtually zero impact on anything when it comes to the actual team.

The Jokeman

12-23-2013, 02:27 PM

This game is absolutely meaningless.

I disagree if EJ wants to win the locker room and Marrone wants to instill that this team is heading in the right direction I think not getting blown out is vital to this team's development. A win be even better especially because the Patriots need to win and if we could some how spoil that, come away with a 4-2 division record might give this team something we've really lacked in recent years which is real hope that everything we're building toward might have meaning next season and a good reason to have Byrd stick around and a few more UFAs join us. I'll admit in the past I've been like you and felt that we aren't heading somewhere yet with the way this D has played at times this year. The long drives that EJ put up in the game against the Jaguars to win makes me thing maybe just maybe we've got something to be proud about again and it's been a long time for me to feel this. The last time was during the Gregg Williams' era.

JohnnyGold

12-23-2013, 02:50 PM

I disagree if EJ wants to win the locker room and Marrone wants to instill that this team is heading in the right direction I think not getting blown out is vital to this team's development. A win be even better especially because the Patriots need to win and if we could some how spoil that, come away with a 4-2 division record might give this team something we've really lacked in recent years which is real hope that everything we're building toward might have meaning next season and a good reason to have Byrd stick around and a few more UFAs join us. I'll admit in the past I've been like you and felt that we aren't heading somewhere yet with the way this D has played at times this year. The long drives that EJ put up in the game against the Jaguars to win makes me thing maybe just maybe we've got something to be proud about again and it's been a long time for me to feel this. The last time was during the Gregg Williams' era.

This. This times a million.

People saying "this game is meaningless". I couldn't disagree more. Are we going to win the super bowl this year? No. Are we going to get a wild card this year? No. Are we even going to finish .500 this year? No. So in that sense, yes, this game is "meaningless".

But look deeper. A win and EJ played .500 ball as a starter, and some of the losses were winnable games. And some of those wins were quality wins: Dolphins (2x), Ravens, Panthers, and (theoretically) the Patriots.

If we can go on the road, and beat the Patriots, in a game that they absolutely have to win, then even objectively you will have to look at the Bills next year and say "they might win the division". How is that not exciting? I'm not talking about "momentum"--that doesn't exist. I'm talking about this game being a look at does this team have enough to compete to win the division next year?

If EJ goes into foxboro and wins this game, that answer is a yes. And for some reason, there are MANY bills fans that seem to want this answer to be a no. That kills me. This is as close as we've been in a very long time. A big win this Sunday and we're for real. A big win this Sunday and next season is going to be fun. Why are there people in this fan base that insist on wallowing in misery.

Yes: If EJ plays terribly, he may not be the answer, and we may be far away from the promised land.

But if EJ plays well, it means we have a team in place that can go into a top 3 NFL team's stadium, and win (what is for them) a playoff game.

This is a huge game for the future of the Buffalo Bills.

The King

12-23-2013, 02:55 PM

This game is about respect. The Bills haven't had it for years. The only way to get it is to go in and take it. Beat the best at home with a ton on the line. When the Bills can do this consistently then we've turned the corner.

BertSquirtgum

12-23-2013, 02:59 PM

I want EJ to go into next season KNOWING he sucks so both he and coaching seeks all the help he can get.

I want him benched again for the Pats game. Let the Thadiator beat the Pats.

BertSquirtgum

12-23-2013, 03:01 PM

This game is absolutely meaningless.

98% of your posts are meaningless.

Oldbillsfan

12-23-2013, 03:09 PM

I hope the Bills beat em and they lose a first rd bye. Im in Pats country and people laugh at the Bills. Id love to see that change starting on sunday

trapezeus

12-23-2013, 03:40 PM

I think a team who saw a qb have a real game in a big moment would say, "we don't need to be so concerned." if it's his regular body of work, the bills have to be thinking BPA no matter what in the first round and if it's a qb, it's a qb

Lexwhat

12-23-2013, 03:47 PM

This game is extremely important to the Pats. They are playing for a free bye week and an automatic Home game in Round 2 of the playoffs. The playoff picture will be drastically different if the Pats lose this game.

The Bills winning a Road game like this (which I doubt they can) would mean a lot to me, and I'll be convinced that Doug Marrone truly has the ability to turn this team around.

Bill Cody

12-23-2013, 05:46 PM

I'm more interested in this game if EJ plays. Good opportunity for him, we get another chance to see if he's making progress.

Night Train

12-23-2013, 05:55 PM

Win or lose, I want the Bills to spend at least some of the game punching them in the mouth and sending a message that they are improving and will be back next year even stronger.

imbondz

12-23-2013, 06:28 PM

we've won respect games over the past 5 years, hasn't meant anything the following seasons

Oldbillsfan

12-23-2013, 06:46 PM

I dont remember many

chris66

12-23-2013, 07:27 PM

This is going to be a tough one for the Bills. this Bills team is a much different team on the road and they are probably playing in one of the toughest home venues in the league.

besides the Bills already did the Pats a huge favor by beating Miami Sunday

sudzy

12-23-2013, 07:41 PM

I dont remember many

They were all pretty much the same.

The King

12-23-2013, 07:49 PM

we've won respect games over the past 5 years, hasn't meant anything the following seasons

No we haven't. We've had fluke victories, but the body of work was never there. 4-2 in the division is respect.

JohnnyGold

12-24-2013, 06:46 AM

we've won respect games over the past 5 years, hasn't meant anything the following seasons

name 1 from the last 15 years.

immediately everyone will say bills over pats in 2011, but what made that game different was the fact that they went 3-10 afterwards. and those victories were flukes--we shouldn't have beaten the raiders the week before, and we got damn lucky to beat the patriots in the game in question.

edwards beating san diego at home is honestly the last game i can think of where i thought "the bills are legitimate".

stuckincincy

12-24-2013, 06:55 AM

name 1 from the last 15 years.

Cincinnati.

The Bills beat 'em 10 years straight...1989 to 2011.

trapezeus

12-24-2013, 07:42 AM

name 1 from the last 15 years.

immediately everyone will say bills over pats in 2011, but what made that game different was the fact that they went 3-10 afterwards. and those victories were flukes--we shouldn't have beaten the raiders the week before, and we got damn lucky to beat the patriots in the game in question.

edwards beating san diego at home is honestly the last game i can think of where i thought "the bills are legitimate".

then you think about it as the season wore on, the bills won that game because of hte power outage in the first half or first quarter. SD went on to be a good team that season.

i remember being at that game and thinking, "well, well, we've turned the corner. we are beating a good team"

TigerJ

12-24-2013, 08:01 AM

A win would certainly send a message that the Bills will need to be taken seriously in 2014. It also could be taken as evidence of Manuel's development (assuming he starts) since Belichick has a strong reputation for messing with young QBs' minds.

JohnnyGold

12-24-2013, 08:43 AM

then you think about it as the season wore on, the bills won that game because of hte power outage in the first half or first quarter. SD went on to be a good team that season.

i remember being at that game and thinking, "well, well, we've turned the corner. we are beating a good team"

Exactly!

This is going to sound weird coming from me (ever the bills optimist/apologist), but honestly, every win since basically Mike Mularky was our coach has just felt like we got lucky.

Look at last season: some of us (myself included) thought that was a team with the potential to win a wild card. We came out week one and got absolutely obliterated by the Jets, and for all intents and purposes our season was over right then and there. (If my memory serves me correctly) we beat the Chiefs and Browns in successive weeks, but it all just felt like buckling your seatbelt on an airplane in a nose dive... we had already seen the WORST of the Bills, and there's no escaping who you are--you know the Dennis Green quote.

This season has just felt different. Even in some of our losses (specifically, the Chiefs game, the Browns game, the Falcons game, the first Jets game, hell, even the Patriots game) there weren't just moment but entire halves where I thought: "this team is really really good". Could they put it together for 60 minutes? Of course not, they're the Bills.

Let me put it another way: there was only one Bills win this year that felt like a typical Bills win from the last 15 years: week 2 over Carolina. We were outclassed all day and should have lost that game. But my point is--all of our "big" wins over the last 15 years have felt like that. When we beat the Patriots in week 3 in 2011 it was flukely as hell. Interceptions off batted balls, Fred Jackson scoring--oh no wait, he didn't score after a 10 minute video review--take a knee here so the Patriots can't get the ball back, eke out a victory, run away before anyone notices lol.

Last week, we absolutely smoked the fins, in a game they had everything to play for. That's nothing to turn your nose up at. That wasn't a team playing out the string--that was a team playing to win the division, in week 16. That was a huge game for the Miami franchise--a bigger game than any the Bills have played in since 2004. Make no mistake about it: we handed them their asses.

And that leads me to why I made this thread: what's going to happen this week in New England? It honestly feels like the Bills should win this game. Not "could" win this game--SHOULD win this game. Our defense is lights out, our running backs are in a groove, and our QB play has only been awful in 2 games this season. If we can go into foxboro and do what we did to the Dolphins, then make no mistake about it: the Bills are for real, and the anticipation for next season will(should) be through the roof.

How can anyone that claims to be a Bills fan be rooting against that scenario? A dominant win by the Bills this week and I would reckon there will be some vegas books next season that favor the Bills to win the division.

The NFL has changed since Kelly was slangin' the rock around the Rich--winning the division is enormous. You win your division and you're a home win and 2 road wins away from the Super Bowl. First home playoff game at the Ralph since Kelly said goodbye to football could be 12 months away.

The future of our organization, the future of our fandom feels like it's on the line this Sunday in foxboro... and people want us to lose for better draft positioning lol.

Oldbillsfan

12-24-2013, 09:00 AM

Just an FYI, the talking heads in Pats land were talking about when they are up by 3 scores they should try out different players. I'm suurounded by Pats fans laughing about the game Sunday and who want me to give props to Brady and Belecheat. Well F that!

Bill Cody

12-24-2013, 09:06 AM

I don't believe season's carry over, just like pre season doesn't matter. But I'd like to see EJ spoil their party.

coastal

12-24-2013, 09:15 AM

Memo to Mario... break Tom Brady and I'll back off.

DynaPaul

12-24-2013, 09:49 AM

Two things are going to happen with this game regardless of Buffalo's play. The officials are going to be biased for the Pats to give them a first round bye while taking away Denver's home field advantage throughout the playoffs and passing it onto New England (that's if Denver loses). Or the the officials will be biased for the Bills to prevent that scenario from happening. It all depends on what story line the NFL wants to play this year. Will they want Manning to win one more ring before riding off into the sunset or are they going to continue this fallacious Patriots dynasty further? I don't know but we'll find out on Sunday but you can bet your bottom dollar that if you see a lot of bogus calls and obvious non-calls then they're setting up some kind of narrative.

Albany,n.y.

12-24-2013, 09:52 AM

DynaPaul

12-24-2013, 09:54 AM

Getting a new tin foil hat for Christmas?

This comment is a fail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytCEuuW2_A

Albany,n.y.

12-24-2013, 10:01 AM

This comment is a fail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytCEuuW2_A

Your wacko conspiracy theories are a fail. You need help, get some.

SabreEleven

12-24-2013, 10:17 AM

The only bearing this game has on next season is where the Bills draft next April.

Jan Reimers

12-24-2013, 10:32 AM

I always want to win, and I hope we do, but in a game that means something, at their house, and with their amount of talent compared to us (particularly Brady vs. Manuel) I don't hold out too much hope.

Actually, the talent, except at QB, may be getting a little more equal. But that's a pretty big "EXCEPT."

Albany,n.y.

12-24-2013, 10:44 AM

The only bearing this game has on next season is where the Bills draft next April.

Even that doesn't matter too much because the Bills are right around 10 give or take 1 or 2 spots either way. With the last 2 wins, the draft position got locked in within a pick or 2.
At this spot, it doesn't matter as much. I still believe when the team is really bad and gets aced out of a better pick in the top 5 by winning a meaningless December game that gets them win 4 or 5, it can negatively impact the team for the next decade.

IlluminatusUIUC

12-24-2013, 10:45 AM

With the huge injuries in the AFC this year, the field is wide open. I do NOT, under any circumstances, want to see another Patriots super bowl in my lifetime.

Anything that throws up another roadblock is good IMO, so I want to win and knock them out of the #2 seed.

Oldbillsfan

12-24-2013, 11:12 AM

Only a bunch of pussies with no pride would want a loss so the team can F up another draft pick. Good lord what is the matter with some of you? Break Bradys vagina!!

stuckincincy

12-24-2013, 11:29 AM

Memo to Mario... break Tom Brady and I'll back off.

'Tis the season to be jolly...

Mr. Pink

12-24-2013, 12:57 PM

stuckincincy

12-24-2013, 01:09 PM

I don't get how a week 17 matchup that's the difference between 6-10 and 7-9 is the most important game of 10 years. The same scenario played out in 2011. 6-9 entering week 17 playing the Pats who they beat earlier in the year. Was that an important game? In 2008 they entered week 17, again playing the Pats, for a chance to go .500 was that important? Maybe 2007 where they were 7-6 entering week 15 and lost 3 straight to finish below .500, was one of those games most important? 2006, they were 7-7 and lost the final 2 to finish below .500. Could have beat the Jets in week 17 in 2005 to go 3-3 in the division and 6-10 overall.

There's a laundry list of games like Sunday's over the past decade.

There's only been ONE meaningless football game in week 17 the past decade. 2004 Pittsburgh Steelers.

The gist of this thread is that BUF can act as a big spoiler if they get the victory, denying NE a 1st round bye if CIN wins (CIN beat them head-to head). And if DEN improbably loses at OAK, a NE win gives them home field throughout the AFC playoffs.

It's not about BUF improving itself, it's about the chance to stick a knife into NE's neck. :zapper:

chris66

12-24-2013, 01:25 PM

Dont know how motivated the players are going to be. Marrone will try, but if the Pats jump ahead 14-0 in the 1st quarter. that game is over

Skooby

12-24-2013, 03:27 PM

If our D-line shows up again, Brady may be hospitalized.

stuckincincy

12-24-2013, 03:35 PM

Dont know how motivated the players are going to be. Marrone will try, but if the Pats jump ahead 14-0 in the 1st quarter. that game is over

Not sure why you say that...

Bunion

12-24-2013, 03:40 PM

Cato the Elder like to end every speech he gave on any subject with 'Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem esse delendam'. That's latin for 'Furthermore, I consider that Carthage must be destroyed'. You can check Wikipedia.

I don't care about draft picks, that's already settled or ****ed up depending on your POV. I don't care about coaching, we've already missed the playoffs and are guaranteed .500 in the division. By Russ Brandon's own criteria, the season is a failure, and a very Bills failure at that; No playoffs, a handful of real successes and a bunch of crap that we'll argue about until draft day. The QB question is still hanging as always.

In essence, it's ****ing groundhog day in Western NY and among Bills Nation, except for the fact that our Defense can be elite with the right moves, and we can pound the **** out of division rivals at home. The last one kinda makes me feel good but doesn't change much in real terms as we still choke on the road, and in Canada, and against the Pats.

The big deals so far are what they always were: Closing this black hole at QB so we can have a reliable offense, ending the Toronto series for a million good reasons, and somebody telling Doug Marrone that he's going to have to be as business-minded about Crossman as he was with Justin Rogers. Nursing that guy along on our Staff is insane.

Furthermore, when in doubt, screw over New England

stuckincincy

12-24-2013, 03:47 PM

Oldbillsfan

12-24-2013, 04:34 PM

Well said! The Pats have helped ruin the Bills playoff hopes for years. It would be nice to humble that organization and their arrogant fan base.

K-Gun

12-24-2013, 04:35 PM

This game is absolutely meaningless.

Tom Brady can't play forever. This game is an oppertunity to put the rest of the division on notice.

Who doesn't want to see the Bills knock Brady out of the game, end his season, and make him contemplate retirement? I'm just saying.

DynaPaul

12-24-2013, 07:49 PM

Your wacko conspiracy theories are a fail. You need help, get some.

Attack the post. Not the poster. You've failed again my Capital District brethren.

coastal

12-25-2013, 02:30 AM

Tom Brady can't play forever. This game is an oppertunity to put the rest of the division on notice.

Who doesn't want to see the Bills knock Brady out of the game, end his season, and make him contemplate retirement? I'm just saying.I'm rooting for someone to break Marcia.

better days

12-25-2013, 08:23 AM

I will agree if they win people can talk up EJ like he's gonna be great. Win or lose though really makes no bearing on what EJ is gonna end up being next year however. And I'm sure the franchise isn't going to base their offseason moves on if they beat the Pats or not. Plus with roster turnover among other things there is no gaining momentum to carry over into next year either.

The only meaning this game really has is to make people feel good that they beat the Pats and finished 4-2 in the division for 2013. They could just easily go out next year and go 2-4 in the division or 5-1 next year regardless of what happens Sunday.

I don't get why people tie so much importance to a game that has virtually zero impact on anything when it comes to the actual team.

What Roster turnover? Aside from Byrd, the Bills have nobody of great value that will be a FA when the season ends. This Bills team will be INTACT next year minus a few guys jettisoned for upgrades.

I totally disagree with you. A win against a Pats* team that has something to play for................which they do, will signal things have changed on the Bills.

When we look back on this season in the future, I think we can liken it to the season after Marv was hired & the Bills went 7-8 (game against Dallas was cancelled due to players strike).

The Next year, Marv coached the Bills to 12-4 & the AFC East title.

better days are coming.

TacklingDummy

12-25-2013, 09:06 AM

*It would improve EJ's record as a starter to 5-5, with a 2 point loss to the Patriots, a 7 point loss to the Jets, and a 3 point loss to the Falcons.
(As an aside, I'm fully aware that some of our wins could have just as easily been losses).

EJ already has 6 losses.

Patriots
Jets
Browns
Steelers
Falcons
Tampa

This team would be in the Playoffs with competent QB play all year.

better days

12-25-2013, 10:35 AM

EJ already has 6 losses.

Patriots
Jets
Browns
Steelers
Falcons
Tampa

This team would be in the Playoffs with competent QB play all year.

The Bills were ahead in the Browns game before EJ was injured & had to leave it.

And the Bills were ahead of the Pats* the last time EJ touched the ball in that game.

Albany,n.y.

12-25-2013, 10:44 AM

Attack the post. Not the poster. You've failed again my Capital District brethren.

Hey, sorry about that, conspiracy theories just drive me crazy.

YardRat

12-25-2013, 10:55 AM

EJ already has 6 losses.

Patriots
Jets
Browns
Steelers
Falcons
Tampa

This team would be in the Playoffs with competent QB play all year.

If only...the defense could've made a big play on NE's last series...EJ went OOB two steps earlier against the Browns...Chandler or Stevie didn't fumble in Toronto...sigh...

BuffaloRedleg

12-25-2013, 11:53 AM

I don't agree but that was absolutely a fun read. Thanks for the post, you must have fully known you were going to get a ton of grief.

BuffaloRedleg

12-25-2013, 12:00 PM

Winning does not have to have any direct causal effect on next year for it to matter. Winning is a self evident sign of progress and and quality. I mean, unless you are the bills... but i digress.

TacklingDummy

12-25-2013, 12:45 PM

The Bills were ahead in the Browns game before EJ was injured & had to leave it.

And the Bills were ahead of the Pats* the last time EJ touched the ball in that game.
Doesn't matter, wins/loss go to the starter.

TacklingDummy

12-25-2013, 12:48 PM

If only...the defense could've made a big play on NE's last series...EJ went OOB two steps earlier against the Browns...Chandler or Stevie didn't fumble in Toronto...sigh...
If Kuechly doesn't interfere in Panthers game, if Johnson doesn't recover fumble in Ravens game, if Tannerhill doesn't fumble in the Miami game, if Miami and the Jets didn't suck.

better days

12-25-2013, 05:27 PM

Doesn't matter, wins/loss go to the starter.

Doesn't matter. I was just pointing out EJ was NOT responsible for those two losses.

ANYONE with an open mind about EJ knows that.

Mr. Pink

12-25-2013, 05:40 PM

What Roster turnover? Aside from Byrd, the Bills have nobody of great value that will be a FA when the season ends. This Bills team will be INTACT next year minus a few guys jettisoned for upgrades.

I totally disagree with you. A win against a Pats* team that has something to play for................which they do, will signal things have changed on the Bills.

When we look back on this season in the future, I think we can liken it to the season after Marv was hired & the Bills went 7-8 (game against Dallas was cancelled due to players strike).

The Next year, Marv coached the Bills to 12-4 & the AFC East title.

better days are coming.

I admire how delusional you are.

Hogan, Urbik, Unga, Legursky, Easley, Chandler, Moeaki, Byrd, Graham, Carrington, Moats, Carpenter, Moorman, Leonard, Summers plus a few other guys could possibly not be here next year. That's 15 guys who could possibly be gone out of a 45 man roster. If changing 33% of the roster isn't turnover, I'd love to hear your definition. At worst 25% of the roster will be changed.

I'm sure you'll tell us all how the Pats will suck next year.

And there's a huge difference between that Marv team and this one...EJ Manuel is more like Willie Totten than Jim Kelly.

YardRat

12-25-2013, 06:01 PM

Mr. Pink

12-25-2013, 06:21 PM

I will bet right now that at least eight of those are on the Bills roster next season...the rest will be upgraded, which is a good thing.

Summers is a 3rd string RB and FB. FB's are completely unnecessary in the NFL nowadays and 3rd string RB's are even less necessary. He stays or goes it doesn't matter. He's an FA so why keep him? Spend a 5th, 6th or 7th round pick on a guy and maybe you end up with a stud, at worst you end up with a dud who easily replaced the next year.

A couple of the guys might be upgraded, Urbik-Legursky-Unga group screams upgrade with two lateral type moves - I'd be shocked if any of those 3 are back.

Chandler-Moeaki will both likely be gone, Chandler due to not being resigned and Moeaki due to the fact he won't show enough or anything to stick through camp...maybe they upgrade maybe they lateral move, hard to say.

Hogan-Easley-Graham? They're the bottom of the WR rotation, Hogan is an FA and there's no reason to keep him as he's just roster filler. Easley, Graham are easily replaceable with anything - likely no upgrade.

Carpenter, Moorman. Carpenter would be nice to keep around but they drafted Hopkins...hard to say if he sticks. Moorman is gone in what likely will amount to be a lateral move.

Carrington, Moats...Moats is easily replaceable as he's just another guy which means there's no real pressing need to keep him around. Carrington I assume they'll like to keep but who knows with his injury if they'll offer him enough for him to want to stay and not test the market. Neither are totally necessities to keep though.

Byrd - If he's gone for whatever reason, the position will be downgraded. Top 5 Safeties don't grow on trees. Leonard has filled in well but I don't see the need to keep him around either.

Not all of them are FAs but 12 guys on the roster will be UFA's in the off-season. Hogan and McClain are ERFA.

So which 8 stick in your opinion? I need to stretch to get to 5 with Easley, Moeaki, Graham, Unga, Carpenter.

YardRat

12-25-2013, 06:39 PM

So which 8 stick in your opinion? I need to stretch to get to 5 with Easley, Moeaki, Graham, Unga, Carpenter.

Depends on what they do in FA and the draft. Any and all have a chance to stick, if upgrades aren't obtained. Some will be available, some won't.

I can see two of three of the guards sticking...same with WR's. That's four. Carpenter, Carrington, Chandler. That's seven. Byrd? Personally I think he's gone...asking too much and IMO doesn't fit this defense, especially for the type of money he's looking for. I'm not of the opinion that he can't be upgraded, even with a rookie. Leonard may want to play one more year...Moeaki, if healthy, could stick and eliminate a FA or draft need...they like Summers...Powell will be gone before Moats. Any one of those makes eight.

better days

12-25-2013, 11:55 PM

I admire how delusional you are.

Hogan, Urbik, Unga, Legursky, Easley, Chandler, Moeaki, Byrd, Graham, Carrington, Moats, Carpenter, Moorman, Leonard, Summers plus a few other guys could possibly not be here next year. That's 15 guys who could possibly be gone out of a 45 man roster. If changing 33% of the roster isn't turnover, I'd love to hear your definition. At worst 25% of the roster will be changed.

I'm sure you'll tell us all how the Pats will suck next year.

And there's a huge difference between that Marv team and this one...EJ Manuel is more like Willie Totten than Jim Kelly.

While a team can only have 45 active on game day, the roster size is 53, not 45. Of all the guys you listed, only a few actually played any time this year.

And Byrd & Carrington will be the only FA's the Bills need to worry about keeping. Even if you were correct & there was a turnover of 25 % on the roster, SO WHAT?

The 75% that remain will be what matters. But more than likely the turnover number will be below 20%

Pats* ROOKIE WR Aaron Dobson: "The Patriots always have their ways of getting to the playoffs so, coming in I knew we were a playoff team."

That is the kind of expectation the Bills need to build & foster. And winning against the Pats* Sunday will go a long way towards that.

And while EJ is not Jim Kelly YET, he is NOT a Division 2 QB that was never drafted either. He played for the Florida State Seminoles & was drafted in the FIRST ROUND.

EJ is MUCH CLOSER to Jim Kelly than Willie Totten.........................unless you are a racist.

Historian

12-26-2013, 05:58 AM

If Kuechly doesn't interfere in Panthers game, if Johnson doesn't recover fumble in Ravens game, if Tannerhill doesn't fumble in the Miami game, if Miami and the Jets didn't suck.

TD, you and Rat combined, make one good point:

There were really only two games the Bills were out of all year...three if you count NO.

The rest could have gone either way. Gotta admit...win or lose, the Bills were a fun team to watch this year.

At times they looked lost, and other times they looked dominating.

Kinda reminds me of 1987. We beat the fish twice....shut them out at home....lost to the Pats at home with the playoffs on the line, but you could see the team was much different from the year before: Strong running game, tighter defense, etc.

I think if they win this weekend, they're on their way, and people will be flooding the ticket office after the new year.

That being said, I'm expecting a close game for a half, and then figure the Bills will beat themselves, (turnovers) probably 23-14.

stuckincincy

12-26-2013, 06:10 AM

Gotta admit...win or lose, the Bills were a fun team to watch this year.

I'm pretty sure their games will get shown in more tv markets next year. Up-and-coming club, etc. :up:

TacklingDummy

12-26-2013, 07:18 AM

TD, you and Rat combined, make one good point:

There were really only two games the Bills were out of all year...three if you count NO.

The rest could have gone either way. Gotta admit...win or lose, the Bills were a fun team to watch this year.

At times they looked lost, and other times they looked dominating.

Kinda reminds me of 1987. We beat the fish twice....shut them out at home....lost to the Pats at home with the playoffs on the line, but you could see the team was much different from the year before: Strong running game, tighter defense, etc.

I think if they win this weekend, they're on their way, and people will be flooding the ticket office after the new year.

That being said, I'm expecting a close game for a half, and then figure the Bills will beat themselves, (turnovers) probably 23-14.

Agreed, :up:

1 player away from being a playoff team.

DynaPaul

12-26-2013, 08:54 AM

Hey, sorry about that, conspiracy theories just drive me crazy.

I don't understand what's so conspiratorial about it. It's kind of an empirical observation of the obvious. It's not like I'm positing that Belichick is an alien or that the CIA is using mind control weapons against the Patriots' opposition.

Mr. Pink

12-26-2013, 11:57 AM

While a team can only have 45 active on game day, the roster size is 53, not 45. Of all the guys you listed, only a few actually played any time this year.

And Byrd & Carrington will be the only FA's the Bills need to worry about keeping. Even if you were correct & there was a turnover of 25 % on the roster, SO WHAT?

The 75% that remain will be what matters. But more than likely the turnover number will be below 20%

Pats* ROOKIE WR Aaron Dobson: "The Patriots always have their ways of getting to the playoffs so, coming in I knew we were a playoff team."

That is the kind of expectation the Bills need to build & foster. And winning against the Pats* Sunday will go a long way towards that.

And while EJ is not Jim Kelly YET, he is NOT a Division 2 QB that was never drafted either. He played for the Florida State Seminoles & was drafted in the FIRST ROUND.

EJ is MUCH CLOSER to Jim Kelly than Willie Totten.........................unless you are a racist.

Dobson knows the Pats are a playoff team because they have Tom Brady. It's pretty simple. Brady could get hurt, the Pats somehow could go 0-16 while he's out and the following year, they'd win the East going away.

And racism? Please. Manuel is closer to replacement level football than a HOF QB. So is Thad and so is Tuel. This team has three QBs, they're all interchangeable. And that right there is the biggest hole, weakness, problem with the 2013 Buffalo Bills.

Albany,n.y.

12-26-2013, 03:53 PM

I don't understand what's so conspiratorial about it. It's kind of an empirical observation of the obvious. It's not like I'm positing that Belichick is an alien or that the CIA is using mind control weapons against the Patriots' opposition.

You clearly think the games are fixed. That's a conspiracy theory.

Generalissimus Gibby

12-26-2013, 04:05 PM

This game is only meaningless if we lose. Everything is against the Bills in this game, the refs, media, Pats, and their fans. Hitting hard and beating up on the Pats on the field and on the score board would actually make me smile. It would be 7-9 but that would be our first win over them in Foxboro since I was a senior in high school.

DynaPaul

12-26-2013, 04:25 PM

You clearly think the games are fixed. That's a conspiracy theory.

You're absolutely right because nothing like that has ever happened before in American sports. What was I thinking?

Generalissimus Gibby

12-26-2013, 04:26 PM

If our D-line shows up again, Brady may be hospitalized.

If that happens the league will ban our D for life.

Generalissimus Gibby

12-26-2013, 04:27 PM

You're absolutely right because nothing like that has ever happened before in American sports. What was I thinking?

Or in the NFL every year. Look, I am not saying the NFL is scripted, but lets face it there are favorites and its obvious whom the NFL wants to win. Of course, sometimes a good team can overcome **** calls or non calls and still win, but its a rarity.

Owen DeBoard

12-26-2013, 05:03 PM

Dobson knows the Pats are a playoff team because they have Tom Brady. It's pretty simple. Brady could get hurt, the Pats somehow could go 0-16 while he's out and the following year, they'd win the East going away.

And racism? Please. Manuel is closer to replacement level football than a HOF QB. So is Thad and so is Tuel. This team has three QBs, they're all interchangeable. And that right there is the biggest hole, weakness, problem with the 2013 Buffalo Bills.
If Brady got hurt there is no way that team would go 0-16 will Bill as the head coach. Remember how great Matt Cassell was when Brady went down? I got news for you its just not Tom Brady that makes that team good.

Owen DeBoard

12-26-2013, 05:22 PM

Now on the other hand your post would be right for Peyton Manning because the year he went down they almost went 0-16.

better days

12-26-2013, 05:50 PM

Dobson knows the Pats are a playoff team because they have Tom Brady. It's pretty simple. Brady could get hurt, the Pats somehow could go 0-16 while he's out and the following year, they'd win the East going away.

And racism? Please. Manuel is closer to replacement level football than a HOF QB. So is Thad and so is Tuel. This team has three QBs, they're all interchangeable. And that right there is the biggest hole, weakness, problem with the 2013 Buffalo Bills.

There are PLENTY of REPLACEMENT QB's. You CHOSE a BLACK one to compare EJ to.

LOOKS RACIST to me.

TacklingDummy

12-26-2013, 06:00 PM

If Brady got hurt there is no way that team would go 0-16 will Bill as the head coach. Remember how great Matt Cassell was when Brady went down? I got news for you its just not Tom Brady that makes that team good.what was Bill doing in Cleveland?

chris66

12-26-2013, 07:03 PM

what was Bill doing in Cleveland?building a pretty damn good program and a who's who coaching staff and front office.

imbondz

12-26-2013, 07:25 PM

the only way this game is the most important game of the past 10 years is if we demolish them 56-10 or worse.

DynaPaul

12-27-2013, 07:46 AM

what was Bill doing in Cleveland?

Working with his butt buddy Ernie Adams to build the greatest cheating system ever devised in the NFL.

Albany,n.y.

12-27-2013, 08:18 AM

If some of you really believe the NFL is fixing games, why do you still watch it? The only way I'd watch games I thought were fixed was if I got info on a real fix & bet heavily.

better days

12-27-2013, 08:39 AM

If some of you really believe the NFL is fixing games, why do you still watch it? The only way I'd watch games I thought were fixed was if I got info on a real fix & bet heavily.

I'm not saying the NFL is fixing games, but it is obvious certain teams are HELPED by the officials.

The opening day game, the Bills had 10 penalties 75 yds. The Pats* had 4 penalties 30 yds.

I expect similar numbers Sunday. The Pats* are tied with the 2nd fewest penalties in the NFL.

65 penalties 594 yds. The NFL average is 93 penalties 803.5 yds.

Does anyone really believe the Pats* were hardly ever called for holding because they didn't hold?

If you watch the games it was obvious the Pats* held a lot & didn't get called for it.

Albany,n.y.

12-27-2013, 09:11 AM

I'm not saying the NFL is fixing games, but it is obvious certain teams are HELPED by the officials.

The opening day game, the Bills had 10 penalties 75 yds. The Pats* had 4 penalties 30 yds.

I expect similar numbers Sunday. The Pats* are tied with the 2nd fewest penalties in the NFL.

65 penalties 594 yds. The NFL average is 93 penalties 803.5 yds.

Does anyone really believe the Pats* were hardly ever called for holding because they didn't hold?

If you watch the games it was obvious the Pats* held a lot & didn't get called for it.

Or it could just be the Patriots are a better disciplined team with a coaching staff that is so good that after years of experience they coach their players to hold to the limit of what the refs will call. They also have better depth so that the coach can pull a player to teach him a lesson if he does something stupid.

It's a lot easier to say the refs are helping the Patriots than to admit that they have superior coaching, discipline and depth. When you take an unbiased look at teams that lead the league in being the least penalized it has a lot more to do with a coaching staff that both teach the players to play within the limits of what will be called & let's the players know they won't put up with nonsense like uncalled for personal fouls. On the Bills, if someone gets a stupid personal foul call, the coaches might talk to him, but he's going right back in the game. On a team with better depth, the guy is going to be on the bench for a while until he learns to play smarter.

stuckincincy

12-27-2013, 10:06 AM

Thurmal

12-27-2013, 10:14 AM

GingerP

12-27-2013, 10:16 AM

The refs may suck, but to think there is some massive conspiracy controlled by the NFL to decide the outcome of games/seasons is definitely wacky conspiracy-theory thinking. Just the sheer number of people who would have to be involved is ridiculous. No way, with that many individuals involved over years, that they would be able to keep it secret. Someone, probably more than one, would get disgruntled and blab. It is ludicrous to think about.

As for the penalty argument, the Bills had their 3 least-penalized teams in team history when Dick Jauron coached the team. That should put the argument to bed. He emphasized that in his coaching, which is why they were good at avoiding penalties. Unfortunately, there were other areas where coaching wasn't so good.

stuckincincy

12-27-2013, 10:19 AM

I believe the Pats had two games this year (Cinci and Houston, I think) where they had 0 penalties all game. If you think that being in a huge market and having a top-3 superstar doesn't influence the officiating they get, you're crazy.

You're stating the obvious. However time to time other clubs get favored and other teams get boned, also.

Personally, I liked the replacement refs of a few years ago. but they were doomed, as fans and media alike drew out the long knives against them.

Mr. Pink

12-27-2013, 10:47 AM

There are PLENTY of REPLACEMENT QB's. You CHOSE a BLACK one to compare EJ to.

LOOKS RACIST to me.

I chose the Bills scab player QB from 1987.

Thurmal

12-27-2013, 10:50 AM

The refs may suck, but to think there is some massive conspiracy controlled by the NFL to decide the outcome of games/seasons is definitely wacky conspiracy-theory thinking. Just the sheer number of people who would have to be involved is ridiculous. No way, with that many individuals involved over years, that they would be able to keep it secret. Someone, probably more than one, would get disgruntled and blab. It is ludicrous to think about.

There's about a 95% (at worst) chance that it happened in the NBA very recently, so it's not that crazy.

GingerP

12-27-2013, 12:11 PM

There's about a 95% (at worst) chance that it happened in the NBA very recently, so it's not that crazy.

In the NBA, there was a ref that had gambling problems. That is a little different than a league-orchestrated system of deciding games. You basically are saying the NFL is scripted like wrestling. If that were true, there is no way it could be kept secret. If that were true and it came out, there would be legal ramifications. It wouldn't be worth the league's effort.

IlluminatusUIUC

12-27-2013, 12:38 PM

In the NBA, there was a ref that had gambling problems. That is a little different than a league-orchestrated system of deciding games. You basically are saying the NFL is scripted like wrestling. If that were true, there is no way it could be kept secret. If that were true and it came out, there would be legal ramifications. It wouldn't be worth the league's effort.

It also assumes the NFL needs storylines to sell to make money. The NFL could have Jacksonville play Oakland at 5 AM and it would still draw more viewers than the NHL playoffs. You think the NFL needs Manning or Brady in the Super Bowl? Even the 'worst' Super Bowl pairing (San Diego-Chicago? Cincy-Carolina?) has easily marketable narratives and would be the most watched TV program of the year by a mile.

Thurmal

12-27-2013, 12:43 PM

In the NBA, there was a ref that had gambling problems. That is a little different than a league-orchestrated system of deciding games. You basically are saying the NFL is scripted like wrestling. If that were true, there is no way it could be kept secret. If that were true and it came out, there would be legal ramifications. It wouldn't be worth the league's effort.
Again, evidence suggests that this is exactly what the NBA did. There were many, many playoff series over the last 20 years in the NBA where there was super-sketchy officiating that elongated series and benefitted large markets.

Sure the NFL would still get good ratings during a Chiefs/Chargers playoff game, but nothing like Denver/New England. The big stars bring in the casual fans.

TacklingDummy

12-27-2013, 12:54 PM

building a pretty damn good program and a who's who coaching staff and front office.
And yet he was...

6-10
7-9
7-9
11-5
5-11

...there

IlluminatusUIUC

12-27-2013, 01:02 PM

Again, evidence suggests that this is exactly what the NBA did. There were many, many playoff series over the last 20 years in the NBA where there was super-sketchy officiating that elongated series and benefitted large markets.

Markets like San Antonio, one of the most dominant dynasties in sports history?

The NBA's problem is that there are only about a dozen players worth a damn, and because of individallly capped contracts they all want to go to large markets to maximize their exposure and earning potential. When you've got guys like LeBron, Carmelo, Bosh, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, etc fleeing small markets as fast as their legs will carry them, then yes small market teams will look worse.

Sure the NFL would still get good ratings during a Chiefs/Chargers playoff game, but nothing like Denver/New England. The big stars bring in the casual fans.

The twentieth most watched program through November was the 11/3 CBS slate of games, in which the largest matchup was Chiefs/Bills (http://www.forbes.com/sites/maurybrown/2013/11/07/halfway-through-season-nfl-has-18-of-the-most-watched-tv-programs-since-sept-5/). It drew 20 million viewers, twice as much as the finale of Breaking Bad, one of the best TV shows of all time, and more than every single game of the World Series matching two of the biggest teams in baseball.

The NFL doesn't need Manning and Brady to make money.

better days

12-27-2013, 01:05 PM

Or it could just be the Patriots are a better disciplined team with a coaching staff that is so good that after years of experience they coach their players to hold to the limit of what the refs will call. They also have better depth so that the coach can pull a player to teach him a lesson if he does something stupid.

It's a lot easier to say the refs are helping the Patriots than to admit that they have superior coaching, discipline and depth. When you take an unbiased look at teams that lead the league in being the least penalized it has a lot more to do with a coaching staff that both teach the players to play within the limits of what will be called & let's the players know they won't put up with nonsense like uncalled for personal fouls. On the Bills, if someone gets a stupid personal foul call, the coaches might talk to him, but he's going right back in the game. On a team with better depth, the guy is going to be on the bench for a while until he learns to play smarter.

Well, as a Pats* fan, you can tell that to yourself.

But NOBODY outside that fan base believes that.

Brady is ALWAYS CRYING to the officials.

And other Pats* players cry as well.

The last play of the Fins game, the WR was making the signal for PI as if he deserved & expected it to be called.

For a CHANGE it was not called.

The Pats* HOLD ALL THE TIME, they just don't get called for it.