Still have lots of holes to fill.

[OpIv37]

I know people aren't going to like this post because they're going to say "Cutting Stevie/Graham/Chandler/Moorman/Dareus will just create another hole," but it's time to face reality that we have holes at these positions even with these guys.

Let's start with Dareus. The guy can play- no doubt. Two major problems, though: even with Dareus playing well, our run D still sucks. And now he keeps getting himself benched for violating team rules. If he's not playing, and the run D sucks when he does play, what good is he?

Next, LB. Kiko slowed down at the end of the year, but I don't see that as a big deal because it happens to a lot of rookies. The NFL season is longer than the college season and they hit a wall. He'll be fine with a full off-season of NFL conditioning. Hughes isn't much against the pass but I do like him as a situational pass rusher. The rest of our Lb's- not so much. Lawson is average, Bradham hasn't really shown me anything. I think this unit is a big reason why our run D sucks so bad.

At DB, well, it kinda depends on what happens with the Byrd situation. I'm not thrilled with Gilmore but I can live with him. McKelvin has stepped up big time and Robey was a nice find. Another shut down corner would be nice but it's a luxury we can't afford at the moment. A Williams has been a nice surprise at S. Leonard and Searcy are solid back-ups but I don't like them as starters. If we keep Byrd, I think this unit is solid.

The OL needs work- that much is obvious. But the WR situation is my biggest concern. Robert Woods looks great. Stevie Johnson will NEVER be reliable enough to be a true number #1 WR. TJ Graham is useless. I haven't been impressed with Goodwin, but unlike Graham, he contributes on ST so I'm ok giving him another shot. I just don't see any way this team succeeds without adding a big target at WR.

TE is a mess. Chandler doesn't pull the antics that Stevie does but he's no more reliable on the field. Lee Smith is a back-up at best and I don't know what to think of Gragg.

QB- I'm giving EJ a rookie pass.

On ST, well, Moorman needs to go. I have all the respect in the world for the guy because he was the only consistently good player for a decade of god-awful Bills football, but time has caught up with him. And we need a real returner. McKelvin makes too many mistakes, and I don't want to risk him on punts as long as he is our number 1 CB (and he is #1, not Gilmore).

I realize this is a long winded post. Here's what I'm trying to say: anyone who pays attention to this team knows we have holes on the OL and at LB. But we also have holes at WR, TE, punter, returner, and on the DL despite having some name players at those positions. This team has a LOT of work to do.

[OpIv37]

And just to clear one thing up: no, I don't actually expect us to get rid of Dareus, Stevie and Chandler. I'm just saying that those positions are holes even with those guys and this team won't succeed until we improve.

I do expect Moorman to be cut and I want Graham cut- that one could go either way.

[superbills]

so, reading into this...receiver in Rd 1?

[OpIv37]

so, reading into this...receiver in Rd 1?

Something has to be done.

And it's frustrating because it shows the incompetence of this FO. In the last two years, we re-signed Stevie, drafted Graham, drafted Woods and Goodwin, and took a flyer on DaRick Rogers, and yet we still suck. It's not lack of effort- it's lack of ability to judge talent.

[superbills]

Totally with you on this. I think Pettine can find ways to fix the defensive side of the ball, but the lack of talent at WR and the O-line makes the offensive side of things a more pressing need, IMHO.

[YardRat]

Can't really argue with any of that, all valid points, but...as much as I like Kyle Williams, and as long as this Dareus thing straightens out, it's KW's spot that needs to be upgraded and Kyle needs to relegated to spot/situational duty. Kiko is too light in the ass to man the middle...get a real MLB and kick Alonso outside, and you fix two problems with one move. Hughes has been a tremendous surprise, and Lawson may have been the best LBer on the team...I think he played better than average and is the only guy on the unit that appears to be able to set the edge.

McKelvin played huge at CB, but agree it's time to remove him from punt return duties. I like this unit a lot, but wouldn't mind a vet FA to add to the mix. Screw Byrd, his attitude sucks and he just isn't a good fit for this defense. I don't think he ever really bought into the philosophy completely and spent the season looking for the big-money plays to leverage a bigger contract. You want culture change? Start with him.

Need a G and a T, I like Chandler but as you pointed out he just fubars too many opportunities at the worst times. He has made big plays also, maybe enough to give him another season at least.

I agree on Moorman, too bad, but everybody's time comes eventually. I hope they make a concerted effort to re-sign Carpenter.

[The King]

I don't know what kind of money Golden Tate is going to be after but I'd like the Bills to take a good look at him. Not as a number 1, but he would allow the Bills to spread this offense out.

[The Beef]

I don't know what kind of money Golden Tate is going to be after but I'd like the Bills to take a good look at him. Not as a number 1, but he would allow the Bills to spread this offense out.

Exactly the type of wide out we don't need.

We have the guys in place to spread it out.

We don't have a guy that demands double teams or is just plain out bigger and nastier vs the opposing CB.

[Mace]

Can't really argue with any of that, all valid points, but...as much as I like Kyle Williams, and as long as this Dareus thing straightens out, it's KW's spot that needs to be upgraded and Kyle needs to relegated to spot/situational duty. Kiko is too light in the ass to man the middle...get a real MLB and kick Alonso outside, and you fix two problems with one move. Hughes has been a tremendous surprise, and Lawson may have been the best LBer on the team...I think he played better than average and is the only guy on the unit that appears to be able to set the edge.

McKelvin played huge at CB, but agree it's time to remove him from punt return duties. I like this unit a lot, but wouldn't mind a vet FA to add to the mix. Screw Byrd, his attitude sucks and he just isn't a good fit for this defense. I don't think he ever really bought into the philosophy completely and spent the season looking for the big-money plays to leverage a bigger contract. You want culture change? Start with him.

Need a G and a T, I like Chandler but as you pointed out he just fubars too many opportunities at the worst times. He has made big plays also, maybe enough to give him another season at least.

I agree on Moorman, too bad, but everybody's time comes eventually. I hope they make a concerted effort to re-sign Carpenter.

Also valid points, but Alonso is going to get bigger from 238 from a pro weight training offseason and they've said he's a workout fiend. I'd look for him to beef up another 10 lbs without losing speed, not exactly a tank size but he's bigger than the anointed Kuechly, same size as Poz though Poz's neck throws you off, close to Fletcher weight, DeMeco Ryans is 248, Patrick Willis 240 and Ray Lewis played at 240. The tanklike Urlacher couldn't keep up with the passing game evolution at 258, and Vontaze Burfict at 255 just doesn't count because he's a specimen.

I think Alonso is right where he belongs.

[OpIv37]

Exactly the type of wide out we don't need.

We have the guys in place to spread it out.

We don't have a guy that demands double teams or is just plain out bigger and nastier vs the opposing CB.

I'll take Tate as a replacement for Graham but we would still need that big possession WR. Realistically it's not gonna happen because, with Stevie that's too much money tied up in the position.

If there are any takers, I'd trade Stevie, sign Tate then try to find that big WR. But that's wishful thinking- it'll never happen.

[The Jokeman]

Exactly the type of wide out we don't need.

We have the guys in place to spread it out.

We don't have a guy that demands double teams or is just plain out bigger and nastier vs the opposing CB.

I just think we need a guy who can play on the outside and contribute. Easier said then done but the UFA I like filling this role would be James Jones of the Packers. He's not great but think he'd be easily in the discussion as a top 2 WR here and allow us to keep Graham/Goodwin to be return men that we need since McKelvin is starting at CB.


I'll take Tate as a replacement for Graham but we would still need that big possession WR. Realistically it's not gonna happen because, with Stevie that's too much money tied up in the position.

If there are any takers, I'd trade Stevie, sign Tate then try to find that big WR. But that's wishful thinking- it'll never happen.

I just think we need a legitimate starting WR that can play on the outside. Sure it help if he be a true #1 but outside of trading for Larry Fitzgerald I'm not sure where we're going to find one.

[jimmifli]

I'm still not convinced our problems against the run are due to Dline play. It's not like we are getting pushed off the ball and allowing our opponents to grind out 5 or 6 yards play after play. It's more like we stuff them for 2/3 plays and then get gashed for 15+ yards.

That sounds more like a LB problem. Ultimately, we've got our big guys outside and our little guy inside and that still seems weird to me. Fortunately for us speed is the rarest commodity rather than size, so I think we can find a playmaking LB in the middle rounds that is productive, sure tackling, big and strong but falls in the draft because he "doesn't have the speed" needed for the NFL. Kiko's fastest enough to protect a slower MLB and the added heft in the middle would help the run.

That'd let us go Oline and WR early. I like Chandler, but I'd like him a lot more as the second guy (rookies are dirt cheap) and there are usually great prospects in the second. I'd be happy if the first 4 rounds went something like this: WR/TE/G/MLB.

[better days]

I know people aren't going to like this post because they're going to say "Cutting Stevie/Graham/Chandler/Moorman/Dareus will just create another hole," but it's time to face reality that we have holes at these positions even with these guys.

Let's start with Dareus. The guy can play- no doubt. Two major problems, though: even with Dareus playing well, our run D still sucks. And now he keeps getting himself benched for violating team rules. If he's not playing, and the run D sucks when he does play, what good is he?

Next, LB. Kiko slowed down at the end of the year, but I don't see that as a big deal because it happens to a lot of rookies. The NFL season is longer than the college season and they hit a wall. He'll be fine with a full off-season of NFL conditioning. Hughes isn't much against the pass but I do like him as a situational pass rusher. The rest of our Lb's- not so much. Lawson is average, Bradham hasn't really shown me anything. I think this unit is a big reason why our run D sucks so bad.

At DB, well, it kinda depends on what happens with the Byrd situation. I'm not thrilled with Gilmore but I can live with him. McKelvin has stepped up big time and Robey was a nice find. Another shut down corner would be nice but it's a luxury we can't afford at the moment. A Williams has been a nice surprise at S. Leonard and Searcy are solid back-ups but I don't like them as starters. If we keep Byrd, I think this unit is solid.

The OL needs work- that much is obvious. But the WR situation is my biggest concern. Robert Woods looks great. Stevie Johnson will NEVER be reliable enough to be a true number #1 WR. TJ Graham is useless. I haven't been impressed with Goodwin, but unlike Graham, he contributes on ST so I'm ok giving him another shot. I just don't see any way this team succeeds without adding a big target at WR.

TE is a mess. Chandler doesn't pull the antics that Stevie does but he's no more reliable on the field. Lee Smith is a back-up at best and I don't know what to think of Gragg.

QB- I'm giving EJ a rookie pass.

On ST, well, Moorman needs to go. I have all the respect in the world for the guy because he was the only consistently good player for a decade of god-awful Bills football, but time has caught up with him. And we need a real returner. McKelvin makes too many mistakes, and I don't want to risk him on punts as long as he is our number 1 CB (and he is #1, not Gilmore).

I realize this is a long winded post. Here's what I'm trying to say: anyone who pays attention to this team knows we have holes on the OL and at LB. But we also have holes at WR, TE, punter, returner, and on the DL despite having some name players at those positions. This team has a LOT of work to do.

If the Bills get rid of productive players like Dareus, Stevie & Chandler......................who led the team in receptions, THEN there will be holes to fill.

KEEP the players we have & the number of holes is SMALL. SMALLER than in YEARS.

[Skooby]

I know people aren't going to like this post because they're going to say "Cutting Stevie/Graham/Chandler/Moorman/Dareus will just create another hole," but it's time to face reality that we have holes at these positions even with these guys.

Let's start with Dareus. The guy can play- no doubt. Two major problems, though: even with Dareus playing well, our run D still sucks. And now he keeps getting himself benched for violating team rules. If he's not playing, and the run D sucks when he does play, what good is he?

Next, LB. Kiko slowed down at the end of the year, but I don't see that as a big deal because it happens to a lot of rookies. The NFL season is longer than the college season and they hit a wall. He'll be fine with a full off-season of NFL conditioning. Hughes isn't much against the pass but I do like him as a situational pass rusher. The rest of our Lb's- not so much. Lawson is average, Bradham hasn't really shown me anything. I think this unit is a big reason why our run D sucks so bad.

At DB, well, it kinda depends on what happens with the Byrd situation. I'm not thrilled with Gilmore but I can live with him. McKelvin has stepped up big time and Robey was a nice find. Another shut down corner would be nice but it's a luxury we can't afford at the moment. A Williams has been a nice surprise at S. Leonard and Searcy are solid back-ups but I don't like them as starters. If we keep Byrd, I think this unit is solid.

The OL needs work- that much is obvious. But the WR situation is my biggest concern. Robert Woods looks great. Stevie Johnson will NEVER be reliable enough to be a true number #1 WR. TJ Graham is useless. I haven't been impressed with Goodwin, but unlike Graham, he contributes on ST so I'm ok giving him another shot. I just don't see any way this team succeeds without adding a big target at WR.

TE is a mess. Chandler doesn't pull the antics that Stevie does but he's no more reliable on the field. Lee Smith is a back-up at best and I don't know what to think of Gragg.

QB- I'm giving EJ a rookie pass.

On ST, well, Moorman needs to go. I have all the respect in the world for the guy because he was the only consistently good player for a decade of god-awful Bills football, but time has caught up with him. And we need a real returner. McKelvin makes too many mistakes, and I don't want to risk him on punts as long as he is our number 1 CB (and he is #1, not Gilmore).

I realize this is a long winded post. Here's what I'm trying to say: anyone who pays attention to this team knows we have holes on the OL and at LB. But we also have holes at WR, TE, punter, returner, and on the DL despite having some name players at those positions. This team has a LOT of work to do.

So we're just about there.

[The Jokeman]

I'm still not convinced our problems against the run are due to Dline play. It's not like we are getting pushed off the ball and allowing our opponents to grind out 5 or 6 yards play after play. It's more like we stuff them for 2/3 plays and then get gashed for 15+ yards.

That sounds more like a LB problem. Ultimately, we've got our big guys outside and our little guy inside and that still seems weird to me. Fortunately for us speed is the rarest commodity rather than size, so I think we can find a playmaking LB in the middle rounds that is productive, sure tackling, big and strong but falls in the draft because he "doesn't have the speed" needed for the NFL. Kiko's fastest enough to protect a slower MLB and the added heft in the middle would help the run.

That'd let us go Oline and WR early. I like Chandler, but I'd like him a lot more as the second guy (rookies are dirt cheap) and there are usually great prospects in the second. I'd be happy if the first 4 rounds went something like this: WR/TE/G/MLB.

39 catches 445 yards 2 TDs
36 catches 469 yards 4 TDs

Those were the stats for the two top drafted TEs in this past NFL draft. Remember to have realistic expectations for rookies.

[Beebe's Kid]

39 catches 445 yards 2 TDs
36 catches 469 yards 4 TDs

Those were the stats for the two top drafted TEs in this past NFL draft. Remember to have realistic expectations for rookies.

Now, why did you go and do that? You know that isn't the Bills FO drafting these guys...the Bills have a nose for talent. Every year they find those hidden gems that come in and contribute.

Who the hell wouldn't want to ditch all of these vets when this team always hits on its rookies?

I mean we could trade them all for mid-round picks and have all that POTENTIAL. That is what it is all about...all that footwork, and hand size, and 40 times...this is such a fun time of year.

To fill the holes, we must create new holes that we patch to begin fixing the old holes. Then...profit.

[Mace]

I'm still not convinced our problems against the run are due to Dline play. It's not like we are getting pushed off the ball and allowing our opponents to grind out 5 or 6 yards play after play. It's more like we stuff them for 2/3 plays and then get gashed for 15+ yards.

That sounds more like a LB problem. Ultimately, we've got our big guys outside and our little guy inside and that still seems weird to me. Fortunately for us speed is the rarest commodity rather than size, so I think we can find a playmaking LB in the middle rounds that is productive, sure tackling, big and strong but falls in the draft because he "doesn't have the speed" needed for the NFL. Kiko's fastest enough to protect a slower MLB and the added heft in the middle would help the run.

That'd let us go Oline and WR early. I like Chandler, but I'd like him a lot more as the second guy (rookies are dirt cheap) and there are usually great prospects in the second. I'd be happy if the first 4 rounds went something like this: WR/TE/G/MLB.

I'd keep arguing it's dline, they are the constant, and so focused on penetrating they cannot stuff. We are not getting pushed off the ball, we run past it.

People keep saying we need a big tank mlb, but the best defenses have middling playmakers against the evolution of a pass oriented league.

We keep getting shredded by not big name running backs. In a pass oriented game, your linebackers need cue on the run but defense the play, so you see a lot of mlbs making tackles when the back is past the line 5 yards or more. The line needs to make sure the back doesn't make it that far past the line, reading runs and preventing holes that lb's can flow to. If wee Robey can tackle someone, you don't need a monster LB to tackle a TE and an RB at the same time if someone takes the TE.

Pettine for example does not run a passive reactive defense. If the linemen are attacking, they need to grasp when a running back has the ball and is running past them and remember the next time it happens. Those big plays are caused by offensive linemen sealing off defensive linemen inside, you notice we are not often shredded outside, which is LB territory.

A big tanklike lb is essentially a Kelsay, unable to pursue, able to stuff once in a while, and still dependent on his line to make sure the guy is near enough to hit and lost if the guy is past because he's not going to catch him.

If you saw any of Urlacher's last games, he just couldn't cover or catch anyone. Burfict is big, has speed, is rare. With speed though you can tackle anyone if you catch them. With size you need to catch them first.

[jimmifli]

39 catches 445 yards 2 TDs
36 catches 469 yards 4 TDs

Those were the stats for the two top drafted TEs in this past NFL draft. Remember to have realistic expectations for rookies.

Yep. That's why I'd hate to lose Chandler and replace him with a rookie. Y1 Chandler probably still outperforms the rookie, Y2 they reverse roles after that Chandler becomes expendable while the rookie is still cheap.

[The Jokeman]

Yep. That's why I'd hate to lose Chandler and replace him with a rookie. Y1 Chandler probably still outperforms the rookie, Y2 they reverse roles after that Chandler becomes expendable while the rookie is still cheap.

Let Chandler walk and give me a better player in Pitta and use our draft picks to build an O-line is my personal plan of attack. As it also allow us to keep Gragg around as a 3rd TE and possibly develop.

[The King]

Oh, and thats what she said.

[The Jokeman]

Oh, and thats what she said.

Nicely played Michael (Scott), did the Bills sign Terry Glenn?

[Night Train]

I'd like to see the Bills move Spiller to the WR position with SJ inside and Woods on the other. Then find the next big TE Manuel desperately needs.

At Clemson, Spiller lined up wide many times and ran good patterns. Has more of a WR's body at 5-11 196. Why should a guy with his speed and open field ability ever leave the field ? He just needs to get wide of the front 7. Find another RB to go with Fred, who's near the end of the line but still has a good year or 2 left (we hope).

Bigger ILB's..this D is crying for 2. Stop the run. Kiko moves outside.

TE - obvious

[The Jokeman]

I'd like to see the Bills move Spiller to the WR position with SJ inside and Woods on the other. Then find the next big TE Manuel desperately needs.

At Clemson, Spiller lined up wide many times and ran good patterns. Has more of a WR's body at 5-11 196. Why should a guy with his speed and open field ability ever leave the field ? He just needs to get wide of the front 7. Find another RB to go with Fred, who's near the end of the line but still has a good year or 2 left (we hope).

Bigger ILB's..this D is crying for 2. Stop the run. Kiko moves outside.

TE - obvious

The Bills just have to find a way to get Spiller in space on the outside, maybe a few pitches or screens. That said I think he was fighting injuries all season and remarkably people fail to mention he outrushed Fred Jackson on the season.

[YardRat]

Also valid points, but Alonso is going to get bigger from 238 from a pro weight training offseason and they've said he's a workout fiend. I'd look for him to beef up another 10 lbs without losing speed, not exactly a tank size but he's bigger than the anointed Kuechly, same size as Poz though Poz's neck throws you off, close to Fletcher weight, DeMeco Ryans is 248, Patrick Willis 240 and Ray Lewis played at 240. The tanklike Urlacher couldn't keep up with the passing game evolution at 258, and Vontaze Burfict at 255 just doesn't count because he's a specimen.

I think Alonso is right where he belongs.

Bigger is fine, but only if he can learn to engage, and hold his ground when he's engaged. I don't want a plodder with size in the middle just because he weighs more, but a MLB has to have more ass than Kiko to stand up a block, read, shed and tackle. Kiko finesses to much, and that opens holes up the middle. He's much better suited for outside IMO.

That being, I'll admit I expected very little from him when he was drafted, so he's already proven me wrong once.

[YardRat]

The Bills just have to find a way to get Spiller in space on the outside, maybe a few pitches or screens. That said I think he was fighting injuries all season and remarkably people fail to mention he outrushed Fred Jackson on the season.

That won't happen until the passing game improves. It's been easy for a team to go jailbreak once they identify Spiller has the ball and is going wide, especially when they are constantly stacking the box. I don't care how good a RB is supposed to be, if you can't get guys to back away from the line of scrimmage you'll never be successful on the edges. Too many defenders blitzing the ball carrier, not enough blockers to handle it.

[coastal]

We need a LG.... bad.

Urbik can be serviceable but we need a real RT as well.

[OpIv37]

We need a LG.... bad.

Urbik can be serviceable but we need a real RT as well.but but but Levitre cost too much!!!! :rolleyes:

And the revolving door rebuilding cycle continues to churn....

[jimmifli]

We need a LG.... bad.

Urbik can be serviceable but we need a real RT as well.

There's a pretty good chance (historically) we could grab one of the top guards with our second round pick.

[OpIv37]

There's a pretty good chance (historically) we could grab one of the top guards with our second round pick.

And a pretty good chance (historically) that either a) the draft pick will be a bust or b) the draft pick will play well but we will let him walk after his rookie contract expires.

[X-Era]

I know people aren't going to like this post because they're going to say "Cutting Stevie/Graham/Chandler/Moorman/Dareus will just create another hole," but it's time to face reality that we have holes at these positions even with these guys.

Let's start with Dareus. The guy can play- no doubt. Two major problems, though: even with Dareus playing well, our run D still sucks. And now he keeps getting himself benched for violating team rules. If he's not playing, and the run D sucks when he does play, what good is he?

Next, LB. Kiko slowed down at the end of the year, but I don't see that as a big deal because it happens to a lot of rookies. The NFL season is longer than the college season and they hit a wall. He'll be fine with a full off-season of NFL conditioning. Hughes isn't much against the pass but I do like him as a situational pass rusher. The rest of our Lb's- not so much. Lawson is average, Bradham hasn't really shown me anything. I think this unit is a big reason why our run D sucks so bad.

At DB, well, it kinda depends on what happens with the Byrd situation. I'm not thrilled with Gilmore but I can live with him. McKelvin has stepped up big time and Robey was a nice find. Another shut down corner would be nice but it's a luxury we can't afford at the moment. A Williams has been a nice surprise at S. Leonard and Searcy are solid back-ups but I don't like them as starters. If we keep Byrd, I think this unit is solid.

The OL needs work- that much is obvious. But the WR situation is my biggest concern. Robert Woods looks great. Stevie Johnson will NEVER be reliable enough to be a true number #1 WR. TJ Graham is useless. I haven't been impressed with Goodwin, but unlike Graham, he contributes on ST so I'm ok giving him another shot. I just don't see any way this team succeeds without adding a big target at WR.

TE is a mess. Chandler doesn't pull the antics that Stevie does but he's no more reliable on the field. Lee Smith is a back-up at best and I don't know what to think of Gragg.

QB- I'm giving EJ a rookie pass.

On ST, well, Moorman needs to go. I have all the respect in the world for the guy because he was the only consistently good player for a decade of god-awful Bills football, but time has caught up with him. And we need a real returner. McKelvin makes too many mistakes, and I don't want to risk him on punts as long as he is our number 1 CB (and he is #1, not Gilmore).

I realize this is a long winded post. Here's what I'm trying to say: anyone who pays attention to this team knows we have holes on the OL and at LB. But we also have holes at WR, TE, punter, returner, and on the DL despite having some name players at those positions. This team has a LOT of work to do.I really agree.

I want more playmakers at WR. Bigger guys with good speed who can fight for the ball and get off the jam.

I want a true receiving TE who can out run LB'ers and out muscle S's.

On the OL, I'd like to upgrade Pears and certianly the LG spot. I'm also alright with getting someone to push Urbik.

At DB, I'd like to add a guy to push McKelvin. It can be a rookie. But, I'd prefer someone proven.

At OLB, we absolutely can use a new playmaker. I want a guy who compliments Kiko and makes about as many plays. Bradham has been a let down. Lawson has been good. So yeah, I want a 3 down playmaker.

[jimmifli]

And a pretty good chance (historically) that either a) the draft pick will be a bust or b) the draft pick will play well but we will let him walk after his rookie contract expires.
There's a pretty good chance the owner of the team when that contract expires won't be the same guy that signed it.

[clumping platelets]

We need RT just as bad as LG

#1 TE that can not only be a weapon in the receiving game but can actually block. Bring back Chandler as a #2.

Big nasty NT and get rid of Dareus

I would consider moving Stevie and bring in a veteran and drafting a big physical WR...we have plenty of speed at WR

Pure 3-4 OLB and DE

#2 CB with size and another S

Draft, trade, or FA

[OpIv37]

We need RT just as bad as LG

#1 TE that can not only be a weapon in the receiving game but can actually block. Bring back Chandler as a #2.

I would consider moving Stevie and bring in a veteran and drafting a big physical WR...we have plenty of speed at WR

Pure 3-4 OLB and DE

#2 CB with size and another S

Draft, trade, or FA

I don't disagree with the bolded, but do you REALLY think that this team would re-sign Chandler and STILL try to bring in a #1 TE? If we re-sign him, the FO will say something to the effect of "We re-signed Scott Chandler because we have a lot of confidence in him and believe he is the TE this team needs." It will give them their built-in excuse to not address the position.

[cookie G]

I'm still not convinced our problems against the run are due to Dline play. It's not like we are getting pushed off the ball and allowing our opponents to grind out 5 or 6 yards play after play. It's more like we stuff them for 2/3 plays and then get gashed for 15+ yards.

That sounds more like a LB problem. Ultimately, we've got our big guys outside and our little guy inside and that still seems weird to me. Fortunately for us speed is the rarest commodity rather than size, so I think we can find a playmaking LB in the middle rounds that is productive, sure tackling, big and strong but falls in the draft because he "doesn't have the speed" needed for the NFL. Kiko's fastest enough to protect a slower MLB and the added heft in the middle would help the run.

That'd let us go Oline and WR early. I like Chandler, but I'd like him a lot more as the second guy (rookies are dirt cheap) and there are usually great prospects in the second. I'd be happy if the first 4 rounds went something like this: WR/TE/G/MLB.

I agree about the Run D. They aren't getting pushed around nearly as much. Yesterday was the exception rather than the rule. Its the big play that they are still giving up more than most teams. I imagine they've given up more than 20 20+ yard plays this year. That can be a combination of things. Can be LB's...it can be people not staying in their gaps, it can be..and sometimes is....failure of the secondary to prevent the 7 yard gain from becoming a 30 yard gain.

This is the first time in a long time I've believed this...but I think for once we have a DC who is smart enough to fix it, and who has the players to fix it with. I'm not panicky about it.

Another WR or an athletic TE would be nice..preferably both, but I don't hate the receiving corps as is. There is a lot that can be done with the talent, excepting Graham. Never saw a guy who can get open deep so often, but have the ball skills of a high school freshman. I swear, when he turns around for the ball on a deep pass, he probably turns the wrong way on half of them.

Fixing the O line shouldn't even be in the discussion..it is simply a must. They need at least 2 players on the line, maybe three. Sacks per attempt are right back up there with the Bledsoe era, and that isn't good. And it won't change unless you have a Qb that will get rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds or less, and we don't have one on the roster.

Time to quit trying to be cute with the Oline and talk about the practice squad prospects, or interviewing people from the City Mission for a position. Go out and get some talent. Its hard enough building a quality Oline when you actually invest in it.

QB remains the big elephant in the room to me. I'm not sold on Manuel, I'm not discarding him either. But if the right prospect falls....I say take him. The position is too important, and it has been neglected too long...and he was regarded as too iffy of a prospect, to simply say..."its his team, we're stuck with him for 3-4 years".

[OpIv37]

Our DC will be gone in two weeks when he gets an HC offer.

[jimmifli]

QB remains the big elephant in the room to me. I'm not sold on Manuel, I'm not discarding him either. But if the right prospect falls....I say take him. The position is too important, and it has been neglected too long...and he was regarded as too iffy of a prospect, to simply say..."its his team, we're stuck with him for 3-4 years".
I think the reason teams were tied to 1st round picks was because of the contracts. With a big % of cap and large signing bonuses tied up in one player, teams really had no choice. Even if you cut a guy after the first season, that contract would crush you for the next 2 seasons. So you might as well give him 3 years to figure it out.

But the new contracts aren't like that. While the lost opportunity cost is a stiff penalty, it's not worse than fielding a team with a bad QB.

I've said in a few threads, that they should draft a QB early (I don't think they will and didn't want to derail this thread since we've got enough QB/EJ threads). Teams that expect to make the playoffs should have a veteran backup to salvage the season if the starter misses 3 or 4 games. But for teams that are "rebuilding" it makes more sense to maximize their chances of finding a good QB. And past the middle of the first round, the contracts are cheaper than what we paid for Kolb anyways.

[Mouldsie]

but but but Levitre cost too much!!!! :rolleyes:

And the revolving door rebuilding cycle continues to churn....
Says the man wanting to replace half the roster

[OpIv37]

Says the man wanting to replace half the roster

$20 million under the cap.

If the FO says Levitre is too expensive, then goes out and gets a key FA or extends someone like Byrd long term, I get it. If they say Levitre is too expensive but then Ralph stuffs the money in his mattress and we go into the season $20 million under the cap, well that's ****ing bull****.

Cap savings is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself.

[Mouldsie]

$20 million under the cap.

If the FO says Levitre is too expensive, then goes out and gets a key FA or extends someone like Byrd long term, I get it. If they say Levitre is too expensive but then Ralph stuffs the money in his mattress and we go into the season $20 million under the cap, well that's ****ing bull****.

Cap savings is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself.
I'll agree with that. No excuse for not signing Byrd. Now he's more expensive, and if you tag him again he's gone and will get paid even more next year when the cap goes up, he might even want to be tagged for that reason lol

[clumping platelets]

With a couple of simple restructures, the Bills could create over $10 million in cap space and not impact cash to cap one dollar. Convert roster into signing bonuses.

The available cap space is fluid

[coastal]

There's a pretty good chance (historically) we could grab one of the top guards with our second round pick.
I'm tipping my hand but trade down and select the best left guard prospect with our first pick. Hell... take a RG or RT with our second round pick while were at it.

[DraftBoy]

but but but Levitre cost too much!!!! :rolleyes:

And the revolving door rebuilding cycle continues to churn....

You of all people can't begin to critique the Levitre move. You are the king of *****ing about overpaying players.

[pmoon6]

but but but Levitre cost too much!!!! :rolleyes:

And the revolving door rebuilding cycle continues to churn....Levitre did cost too much and even with that "hole" left by him we were Number 2 in the league as far as rushing offense. Tennessee was about 15th, but total offense both teams were almost the same. That isn't on Andy, but you spend 9 million on a guard and you expect improvement. We actually improved without him.

That said, O-Line should be one of our priorities on Draft Day or I guess Draft Weekend, now.

[Novacane]

I'll agree with that. No excuse for not signing Byrd. Now he's more expensive, and if you tag him again he's gone and will get paid even more next year when the cap goes up, he might even want to be tagged for that reason lol


Based on what? Winning the popularity contest aka pro bowl team? He didn't do much of anything this year,

[cookie G]

Levitre did cost too much and even with that "hole" left by him we were Number 2 in the league as far as rushing offense. Tennessee was about 15th, but total offense both teams were almost the same. That isn't on Andy, but you spend 9 million on a guard and you expect improvement. We actually improved without him.

That said, O-Line should be one of our priorities on Draft Day or I guess Draft Weekend, now.

Probably because they ran nearly 50 more times than last year. They are down nearly a yard per carry.

More importantly, they gave up 18 more sacks than last year. They gave up 4 or more sacks in 7 of their 16 games...nearly half of them. Their sack totals are double what they were in 2011...the last time they had a semblance of a good offense.

One of Levitre's biggest assets was his pass protection. He was the guy on the line that could take on a DT by himself.

But that's OK. You can find these guys everywhere, or so I'm told.

[jimmifli]

Levitre did cost too much and even with that "hole" left by him we were Number 2 in the league as far as rushing offense. Tennessee was about 15th, but total offense both teams were almost the same. That isn't on Andy, but you spend 9 million on a guard and you expect improvement. We actually improved without him.

That said, O-Line should be one of our priorities on Draft Day or I guess Draft Weekend, now.

We're looking at the same thing right now with Dareus. The reason Andy got paid 9 mil is because he reached the last season of his deal and decided to take the injury risk and see what he get paid. If they had extended him with two years left, he would have been a lot cheaper.

With one year left on the contract, guys will want out of Buffalo enough to test the market.

[Mr. Pink]

Get a real QB and most of those other holes disappear.

Every team, in the salary cap era has holes, the Pats have a weak receiving corps, the Broncos secondary is suspect, the Saints don't run the ball all that well with consistency, etc...

[pmoon6]

Probably because they ran nearly 50 more times than last year. They are down nearly a yard per carry.

More importantly, they gave up 18 more sacks than last year. They gave up 4 or more sacks in 7 of their 16 games...nearly half of them. Their sack totals are double what they were in 2011...the last time they had a semblance of a good offense.

One of Levitre's biggest assets was his pass protection. He was the guy on the line that could take on a DT by himself.

But that's OK. You can find these guys everywhere, or so I'm told.Hmmm. I wonder if the increased sacks could have anything to do with starting three different QBs, two rookies?

But that's OK, you go out and pay the 9 million/year for a guard. One who took about two seconds to sign with another team the first day of free agency.

We can play this game all day, but the truth is neither of us can know what happened during negotiations other than what was told to the media by either camp.

Did Levitre even want to stay in Buffalo? Says he did, but that's what usually comes out of a players mouth just before he signs a big contract with another team.

[coastal]

Hmmm. I wonder if the increased sacks could have anything to do with starting three different QBs, two rookies?

But that's OK, you go out and pay the 9 million/year for a guard. One who took about two seconds to sign with another team the first day of free agency.

We can play this game all day, but the truth is neither of us can know what happened during negotiations other than what was told to the media by either camp.

Did Levitre even want to stay in Buffalo? Says he did, but that's what usually comes out of a players mouth just before he signs a big contract with another team.
I know from a pretty good source that Levitre wanted to stay.

loved the area.

never got an offer.

[pmoon6]

I wonder if while we're speculating about "holes" on the team can we address the holes in the Anti-Fans heads?

"We suck" but then want to make a safety the highest paid player at his position.

Or we wouldn't suck if we had just signed that guard for 9 million a year.

If the player signs elsewhere, the FO sucks. If we sign a player to a big contract, they overpaid.

All the angles are covered and it just somewhat hides the Anti-Fans' hatred for a team they say they love. They are being overly critical for what reason?

[SpikedLemonade]

To me the OL is the key.

It is simply not good enough.

It does not enable us to run late in the game when we want to or pass protect when it is crucial.

Look what the Eagles have invested in their two starting OTs.

[DraftBoy]

I know from a pretty good source that Levitre wanted to stay.

loved the area.

never got an offer.

That's interesting I wonder what his starting point was.

[YardRat]

but but but Levitre cost too much!!!! :rolleyes:

And the revolving door rebuilding cycle continues to churn....

Levitre wouldn't have made one iota's difference in the offensive performance this season, and I'd much rather have Branch and Lawson, and Wood re-signed, etc.

[better days]

Levitre wouldn't have made one iota's difference in the offensive performance this season, and I'd much rather have Branch and Lawson, and Wood re-signed, etc.

I agree about Branch & Lawson but come on Rat, Levitre's replacement was so bad he got cut as soon as Legursky was healthy enough to take over.

I think is is likely the Bills would have won a few of those close games they lost if Levitre were still a Bill.

[YardRat]

Probably because they ran nearly 50 more times than last year. They are down nearly a yard per carry.

More importantly, they gave up 18 more sacks than last year. They gave up 4 or more sacks in 7 of their 16 games...nearly half of them. Their sack totals are double what they were in 2011...the last time they had a semblance of a good offense.

One of Levitre's biggest assets was his pass protection. He was the guy on the line that could take on a DT by himself.

But that's OK. You can find these guys everywhere, or so I'm told.

Boy, couldn't disagree more. Levitre was man-handled and bulled over as much as anybody on the o-line, on a regular basis. Rarely got a good push from the snap, too, and had trouble standing his ground let alone locking and moving any DT with any kind of power. Put him out in space taking on second level guys or linemen moving laterally and granted, Levitre is pretty good, but any necessity for power just isn't in his wheelhouse. Never was.

[OpIv37]

Levitre wouldn't have made one iota's difference in the offensive performance this season, and I'd much rather have Branch and Lawson, and Wood re-signed, etc.

$20 million under the cap.

It was never an either/or situation.

[TacklingDummy]

$20 million under the cap.

It was never an either/or situation.
Revenue/money owner is willing to spend.

[YardRat]

$20 million under the cap.

It was never an either/or situation.

You have no real clue what the Bills are under the cap.

[YardRat]

Too funny....***** incessantly about the team wasting money on re-signing mediocre players, and then ***** some more when they don't pay top dollar for even more mediocrity like the POS, Levitre, and Byrd.

[OpIv37]

You have no real clue what the Bills are under the cap.

I'm going by what's been reported. If I have no clue, then no fan of any team has any clue what the cap situation is.

[OpIv37]

Too funny....***** incessantly about the team wasting money on re-signing mediocre players, and then ***** some more when they don't pay top dollar for even more mediocrity like the POS, Levitre, and Byrd.
I didn't want Poz re-signed.

But this is typical Buffalo garbage: as soon as a player leaves or wants a new contract, he's suddenly "mediocre" because apparently, as a collective fan base we care more about saving Ralph money than talent on the field.

We practically demand that they keep the revolving door rebuilding cycle churning. Russ Brandon dupes the hell out of us.

[BillsFever21]

Can we stop with the "9 million a year" for Andy Levitre nonsense. He is making an average of 7.8 million a season with his 6 year, 46.8 million dollar contract. He was paid as a top 5 guard same as Eric Wood was paid as a top 5 center. Eric Wood isn't a top 5 center but I don't hear any complaining about that. Levitre was more reliable then Wood over them four seasons.

We're also number 2 in rushing because we had the most attempts in the league by almost 40 carries. Our average went down from 5ypc to 4.2ypc this season. It was also 4.9ypc in 2011. We also gave up far more sacks. The sacks isn't all on Levitre being gone but combined the loss of Levitre played a big part in it. Everyone else on the line was the same and also stayed fairly healthy this season unlike last year.

If you agree with the move of not trying to re-sign him then that's your choice. Just don't tack on another imaginary 7+ million dollars over the life of his contract and call it a day and also say our rushing game was better because we had 96 more rushing attempts but less then 100 more yards rushing.

[YardRat]

I'm going by what's been reported. If I have no clue, then no fan of any team has any clue what the cap situation is.

That is probably accurate.

[YardRat]

I didn't want Poz re-signed.

But this is typical Buffalo garbage: as soon as a player leaves or wants a new contract, he's suddenly "mediocre" because apparently, as a collective fan base we care more about saving Ralph money than talent on the field.

We practically demand that they keep the revolving door rebuilding cycle churning. Russ Brandon dupes the hell out of us.

Poz is mediocre. So is Levitre. So is Byrd, in this defense. You, and others, ***** all of the time about mediocrity, but are so desperate to keep homegrown players that aren't elite, but don't outright suck, that you're more than willing to recreate other mistakes the organization has made in the past when they rewarded mediocrity. The 'stuck in a rut' syndrome in Byrd's case wouldn't be a mistake of not keeping a drafted player, but rather once again over-paying for a non-elite player at the expense of being able to improve other positions on the team, to the greater benefit of the team.

[TacklingDummy]

1st post of the new year, KneeJ sucks.

[OpIv37]

Poz is mediocre. So is Levitre. So is Byrd, in this defense. You, and others, ***** all of the time about mediocrity, but are so desperate to keep homegrown players that aren't elite, but don't outright suck, that you're more than willing to recreate other mistakes the organization has made in the past when they rewarded mediocrity. The 'stuck in a rut' syndrome in Byrd's case wouldn't be a mistake of not keeping a drafted player, but rather once again over-paying for a non-elite player at the expense of being able to improve other positions on the team, to the greater benefit of the team.
I think the bigger problem is that, in Buffalo, we have a warped view on what constitutes "overpaying." We define it by what Ralph is willing to pay rather than the going rate around the league. Once again, cap savings is not an end in and of itself. It's a means to an end. If we let Levitre walk to re-sign one of our own or sign an FA at a position of need, so be it. If we let him walk and do nothing, **** that.

[YardRat]

I think the bigger problem is that, in Buffalo, we have a warped view on what constitutes "overpaying." We define it by what Ralph is willing to pay rather than the going rate around the league. Once again, cap savings is not an end in and of itself. It's a means to an end. If we let Levitre walk to re-sign one of our own or sign an FA at a position of need, so be it. If we let him walk and do nothing, **** that.

Allegedly, Byrd was offered the 'going rate', unless one's definition of that is 'highest'. Ralph is not part of the equation anymore so that is a horse that doesn't need to be beat. I agree, more should have been done to bring a G in. Not signing Rhinehart bothers me more than not signing Levitre.

It will be interesting to see what Byrd eventually signs for...Whitner didn't get what he was looking for when he bolted.

[Buddo]

Want to pay a boat load of $ for a guard, fine, no problem, but do it for a guy like Mankins, who is good at the lot, not an above average pass protector, and average run blocker, which is my belief that Levitre is.
Would our O-Line have been better with him than without this year, for sure, but I don't see him as a building block going forward, and that is another aspect of who you pay what for.

As others have siad, the O-Line definitely needs work, and until they can get 3rd and 1 the majority of the time, they will continue to need work. I don't recall Levitre being a part of any O-Line in his time here, that could do that. Mind you, we haven't had an O-Line like that since the days of Kelly, so he's not alone.

In respect of what I want us to address in the off-season, Guard is obviously needed. As nobody knows what he score is with Hairston, I believe we need to secure another Tackle also. Pears is ok, but should be able to be upgraded, and I would have no problems with him as a backup, maybe even the swing tackle, as he has played LT in the league.

We need another good LB. How they do that, will probably come down to availability, either in FA, or the draft. I don't believe that the coaches are worried by any notion of moving Kiko outside, if the right MLB is available, and he has already proven he can play the MLB role, if an outside backer is the best player they can snag at the time. As I believe it's the crucial missing link in what this D needs, I wouldn't object if they used even a 1st round pick, if they get the guy they need.

We need to find a reliable, large WR, and also a reliable large TE, who has more speed than Chandler. Hands being the major criteria for both.

Another CB who can come in and play man, if Gilmore or McKelvin gets hurt - so a guy with more size than Robey or Brooks, both of whom I like inside. We really don't need to slow down Williams development at the safety position, by having to use him as a CB - as well as he responded when needed. This will be even more the case if we don't re-sign Byrd, although I do believe they will tag him again if they can't get a deal done.

Ideally, I'd like a genuine vet QB brought in to mentor EJ, yet I actually like the potential that Tuel and Dixon have to be a backup. I'm not too sure what to make of Thad, in some respects. He didn't do that badly for us, when he stepped in, but I don't see him as the long term backup many might, and there's a simple reason for that. He has no 'touch' on anything the throws. People were probably ripping TJ for the drop in the last game, and while good WRs will often catch that ball, not only was it slightly behind him, it was rifled in, in conditions that made the pigskin, roughly the equivalent of a bar of wet soap. And he throws everything like it.

Making the assumption that Byrd is with the team next year (I'm certain he will be tagged again if no new deal is forthcoming), the team doesn't have so many holes to fill to become a lot better. One LB. One Guard. One big WR, and one TE with some speed. To me, that's the bare minimum for true progress to be made, but it still needs doing. 'Depth' in certain areas, would then be the priority.

[pmoon6]

...Very nice analysis.

[better days]

Levitre is an Iron Man. I think the mistake made was to let him play out his Rookie contract, especially knowing Byrd would be a FA as well.

Levitre could/should have been extended a year sooner at a reasonable price IMO.

[cookie G]

Boy, couldn't disagree more. Levitre was man-handled and bulled over as much as anybody on the o-line, on a regular basis. Rarely got a good push from the snap, too, and had trouble standing his ground let alone locking and moving any DT with any kind of power. Put him out in space taking on second level guys or linemen moving laterally and granted, Levitre is pretty good, but any necessity for power just isn't in his wheelhouse. Never was.

Uh huh.

And while he was being man-handled and bulled over, he managed to allow a single sack in over 500 attempts and 11 QB pressures...the least of any interior lineman in the NFL.

Meanwhile...your guy Colin Brown, the winner of Buddy Nix's "Who Wants to Be an NFL Guard" competition, gave up 2 sacks and 17 QB pressures....in his first 3 games.

Nice plan.

BTW, the money for Lawson and Branch didn't come from not paying Levitre...it came from not paying Spencer Johnson and Barnett.

[YardRat]

Uh huh.

And while he was being man-handled and bulled over, he managed to allow a single sack in over 500 attempts and 11 QB pressures...the least of any interior lineman in the NFL.

Meanwhile...your guy Colin Brown, the winner of Buddy Nix's "Who Wants to Be an NFL Guard" competition, gave up 2 sacks and 17 QB pressures....in his first 3 games.

Nice plan.

BTW, the money for Lawson and Branch didn't come from not paying Levitre...it came from not paying Spencer Johnson and Barnett.

Ahhh, stats....allows you to disregard actually watching the guy get bulled back into the pocket on a consistent basis, or stood up and retreated into the backfield on third and short.

Actually, not paying Johnson and Barnett paid for Wood's extension, but in reality it all comes out of the same pot, so who's to quibble.

[cookie G]

Ahhh, stats....allows you to disregard actually watching the guy get bulled back into the pocket on a consistent basis, or stood up and retreated into the backfield on third and short.

He was no. 67...He played left guard...that's the position just to the left of the center (the guy who hikes the ball), and just to the left of the left tackle. (that's the huge guy on the left end of the offensive line).

Just so you know who you were supposedly watching. But I'm sure you can show me tons of footage of Levitre getting blown away on pass pro. I'll wait.

God I love you Yardie.

You talk about things like it begins in the trenches...but then you'll falll in love with some loser DB that we just can't do without.

Its like someone talking about losing weight and then saying "oooo, there's a sale on Eskimo Pies!"

You want to build the trenches, build them. FOCUS!!! Invest in the position. Quit thinking the City Mission is a hotbed of OL talent. We've been doing that for more than a decade.

It worked once...10 years ago. And we traded that guy. The few times we drafted high, we hit on 3 of our 4 picks.



Actually, not paying Johnson and Barnett paid for Wood's extension, but in reality it all comes out of the same pot, so who's to quibble.

yeah, whatever.

- - - Updated - - -


Ahhh, stats....allows you to disregard actually watching the guy get bulled back into the pocket on a consistent basis, or stood up and retreated into the backfield on third and short.

He was no. 67...He played left guard...that's the position just to the left of the center (the guy who hikes the ball), and just to the left of the left tackle. (that's the huge guy on the left end of the offensive line).

Just so you know who you were supposedly watching. But I'm sure you can show me tons of footage of Levitre getting blown away on pass pro. I'll wait.

God I love you Yardie.

You talk about things like it begins in the trenches...but then you'll falll in love with some loser DB that we just can't do without.

Its like someone talking about losing weight and then saying "oooo, there's a sale on Eskimo Pies!"

You want to build the trenches, build them. FOCUS!!! Invest in the position. Quit thinking the City Mission is a hotbed of OL talent. We've been doing that for more than a decade.

It worked once...10 years ago. And we traded that guy. The few times we drafted high, we hit on 3 of our 4 picks.



Actually, not paying Johnson and Barnett paid for Wood's extension, but in reality it all comes out of the same pot, so who's to quibble.

yeah, whatever.

[THATHURMANATOR]

The problem with the run defense is clearly at Linebacker not Dareus or anyone on the DL.

Alonso is good but not a true run stuffer at his small size. He over pursues and gets blown up by big lineman.

Get some pounders out there and we are in business.

[YardRat]

He was no. 67...He played left guard...that's the position just to the left of the center (the guy who hikes the ball), and just to the left of the left tackle. (that's the huge guy on the left end of the offensive line).

Just so you know who you were supposedly watching. But I'm sure you can show me tons of footage of Levitre getting blown away on pass pro. I'll wait.

God I love you Yardie.

You talk about things like it begins in the trenches...but then you'll falll in love with some loser DB that we just can't do without.

Its like someone talking about losing weight and then saying "oooo, there's a sale on Eskimo Pies!"

You want to build the trenches, build them. FOCUS!!! Invest in the position. Quit thinking the City Mission is a hotbed of OL talent. We've been doing that for more than a decade.

It worked once...10 years ago. And we traded that guy. The few times we drafted high, we hit on 3 of our 4 picks.



yeah, whatever.

I'm a big believer in drafting big, early. I will most often lean toward offensive line, defensive line, defense or yes, the dreaded CB in the first round. If we get to our pick and the top 2 or 3 linemen on both sides of the ball are already gone, yeah, I'm going to go with the #1 corner and get a fatty in round #2. I just don't believe in opening up the bank vault for an offensive lineman that only has half of a skill set, and plays like a pussy unless he's taking on players 2/3 his size or less, just because we drafted him and he was a starter.

[Mouldsie]

Poz is mediocre. So is Levitre. So is Byrd, in this defense. You, and others, ***** all of the time about mediocrity, but are so desperate to keep homegrown players that aren't elite, but don't outright suck, that you're more than willing to recreate other mistakes the organization has made in the past when they rewarded mediocrity. The 'stuck in a rut' syndrome in Byrd's case wouldn't be a mistake of not keeping a drafted player, but rather once again over-paying for a non-elite player at the expense of being able to improve other positions on the team, to the greater benefit of the team.
Poz was not mediocre, he was a poor fit for the Tampa 2 though. He was one of the better run defenders in the league this year.

[Historian]

I think the most sucessful franchises pay the top dollar to their linemen, and build from the line out.

Think about how the game has changed: back in the day, the lineman toiled in anonymity, while the OJs, the Rices and the skill guys made all the money.

Today it's the opposite: teams trade RBs, WRs, and in some cases QBs at will, while the linemen make the top dollars and get renegotiated so they stay put.

Buffalo used to operate on that principal, until Tom Donahoe took over. Now all the sudden we're drafting rbs, and wrs with our top picks, ignoring the lines.

And when we actually find a diamond in the rough, (Peters, Rhinehart, Levitre) we let them walk.

That's the reason for the decade and a half of suck, IMO.

[pmoon6]

You forgot Wolford and Ballard........oh wait.

[Historian]

Good point Moon.

Back in the glory days, the line was so good, so consistent, so deep, you could afford to lose a guy. Even one as good as Wil Wolford.

We don't have that today. Even losing an "average" lineman hurts us.

Remember when they tried to replace "the house" with "the condo"?

[pmoon6]

Good point Moon.

Back in the glory days, the line was so good, so consistent, so deep, you could afford to lose a guy. Even one as good as Wil Wolford.

We don't have that today. Even losing an "average" lineman hurts us.

Remember when they tried to replace "the house" with "the condo"?Yeah, ya can't blame them for Wolford unless you want to say we should have locked him up before he hit FA. The escalator clause that the Colts used was unfair in my opinion, but the Tagliabue wanted parity. Although, it was rumored that Polian wanted to get him signed and Littman resisted. It was hard for Buffalo back then. We had so many stars that you couldn't pay all of them.

I don't think you can blame the Bills' FO for Peters or Levitre, either. I thought letting Rhinehardt walk was a mistake, though. He wouldn't have taken that much to sign or at least I don't think so.

[Buddo]

Yeah, ya can't blame them for Wolford unless you want to say we should have locked him up before he hit FA. The escalator clause that the Colts used was unfair in my opinion, but the Tagliabue wanted parity. Although, it was rumored that Polian wanted to get him signed and Littman resisted. It was hard for Buffalo back then. We had so many stars that you couldn't pay all of them.

I don't think you can blame the Bills' FO for Peters or Levitre, either. I thought letting Rhinehardt walk was a mistake, though. He wouldn't have taken that much to sign or at least I don't think so.

Something was off with Rinehart, imho, in that there was talk before his last year, that the Bills were trying to re-sign him, yet it never happened. He then got injured, and decided to follow his position coach to the Chargers, quite possibly for less than we had been offering, when he didn't sign. My own take on it would be that he didn't want to hang around, once the previous coaching staff got the bullet, and as he had been on IR, he wasn't going to have been about the team that much in the intervening period, to have been swayed in his thinking by anyone.

In all honesty, I might not have the exact timeline correct, so I might be talking hogwash, but I do know that there was a rumour going round that we were trying to get him re-signed. The other thing is, that although we let Levitre walk, he was pretty much going to get a starting gig with the Chargers, whereas with the Bills, he was probably not being guaranteed anything - other than being possibly paid better.

[Bill Cody]

Run stuffing tackles are easier to find than penetrators like Williams and Dareus. We need to add a run stuffer to the rotation for early downs and add another LB

[justasportsfan]

Chandler was 12-13 in catches and yards amongst the TE's in the league with inspite of having qb problems, coming off an ACL injury and 1st year under Marrones system. Keep him for the right price and add another TE. I don't see a problem with running a multiple TE set especially with a qb that wants to dink.

[OpIv37]

Chandler was 12-13 in catches and yards amongst the TE's in the league with inspite of having qb problems, coming off an ACL injury and 1st year under Marrones system. Keep him for the right price and add another TE. I don't see a problem with running a multiple TE set especially with a qb that wants to dink.

The problem is that this team won't commit money to another TE if they spend on Chandler. It'll be Chandler, Lee Smith and Gragg again, and we've seen what that gets us.

[jimmifli]

The problem is that this team won't commit money to another TE if they spend on Chandler. It'll be Chandler, Lee Smith and Gragg again, and we've seen what that gets us.

A 2nd round rookie will be cheaper than Smith and Gragg. With our 2nd round pick we would have a good chance at the 2nd best TE in the draft. Sign Chandler, draft his replacement.

[OpIv37]

A 2nd round rookie will be cheaper than Smith and Gragg. With our 2nd round pick we would have a good chance at the 2nd best TE in the draft. Sign Chandler, draft his replacement.

If the Bills sign Chandler, that shows that they are fine with the status quo at TE, and I don't see them spending a 2nd rounder on one unless some spectacular prospect falls to us.

I know, I know, "best player available," but BPA is a luxury for teams with fewer holes than the Bills

[sukie]

Again. Simply put, We need a WR and a TE that are near the top of nation wide fantasy depth charts.

[OpIv37]

Again. Simply put, We need a WR and a TE that are near the top of nation wide fantasy depth charts.
Or we could let our inexperienced QB keep throwing to the mediocrity that we have in Chandler and Stevie. After all, that seems to be working so far....

[Historian]

Or we could let our inexperienced QB keep throwing to the mediocrity that we have in Chandler and Stevie. After all, that seems to be working so far....

Never ceases to amaze me how the 'experts' here want to throw guys like Darius, and Williams, (not to mention a rookie qb with all of 10 starts) under the bus, but defend chronic underachievers like Chandler and Johnson.

[jimmifli]

If the Bills sign Chandler, that shows that they are fine with the status quo at TE, and I don't see them spending a 2nd rounder on one unless some spectacular prospect falls to us.

I know, I know, "best player available," but BPA is a luxury for teams with fewer holes than the Bills
Resigning Chandler only shows that they think Chandler is worth the money he's asking. It doesn't show anything about the Bills being fine with the status quo. Not adding other TE's would show that.


The offense was terrible. It needs better protection and better weapons. The best WRs go early, but the best TEs can usually be had at the bottom of the 1st or top of the 2nd. That would let them add +2 weapons, or +1 protection and +1 weapon on "day 1" of the draft (the NFL will probably turn the draft into a three week reality show but you know what I mean).

I'd be shocked if any of the 1st three picks are spent on defense so seeing some combo of OL, TE, and WR wouldn't surprise me at all.

[better days]

The problem is that this team won't commit money to another TE if they spend on Chandler. It'll be Chandler, Lee Smith and Gragg again, and we've seen what that gets us.

The Bills also have Tony Moeaki a College teammate of Chandler.

Drafted by KC in 2010, Moeaki had a good Rookie year.

He has been injured the last 3 years but if finally healthy he is the type of athletic TE the Bills could use.

[justasportsfan]

The problem is that this team won't commit money to another TE if they spend on Chandler. It'll be Chandler, Lee Smith and Gragg again, and we've seen what that gets us.

So who would you replace him with? Please give us a list.

[Mr. Pink]

So who would you replace him with? Please give us a list.

Fred Davis, Dennis Pitta, draft choice.

[justasportsfan]

If the Bills sign Chandler, that shows that they are fine with the status quo at TE, and I don't see them spending a 2nd rounder on one unless some spectacular prospect falls to us.

thats not true. They signed Kolb and drafted EJ.

[justasportsfan]

I like Pitta but Ravens is looking to sign him to a long term contract. If not I would take him over Chandler.

Fred Davis' nos. are declining while Chandlers is increasing. FD 1 year removed from an achilles injury and substance abuse. Buyer beware.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

The Bills also have Tony Moeaki a College teammate of Chandler.

Drafted by KC in 2010, Moeaki had a good Rookie year.

He has been injured the last 3 years but if finally healthy he is the type of athletic TE the Bills could use.

I like Moeaki but he's a Merriman move: trying to recapture some magic from a guy with injury troubles. He's not a guarantee of anything and shouldn't be treated as such.

[better days]

I like Moeaki but he's a Merriman move: trying to recapture some magic from a guy with injury troubles. He's not a guarantee of anything and shouldn't be treated as such.

I agree. But if he can stay healthy he could be a weapon.

Chandler is the only TE we know all about. I say resign him.

Gragg could make a jump in his 2nd year, but maybe he won't.

A Rookie TE may pan out or may not.

[justasportsfan]

I like Moeaki but he's a Merriman move: trying to recapture some magic from a guy with injury troubles. He's not a guarantee of anything and shouldn't be treated as such.

the only thing he's proven lately is being brittle. We have him signed through next year anyways but I wouldn't depend on him alone.

[Mr. Pink]

I like Pitta but Ravens is looking to sign him to a long term contract. If not I would take him over Chandler.

Fred Davis' nos. are declining while Chandlers is increasing. FD 1 year removed from an achilles injury and substance abuse. Buyer beware.

Agree on Pitta with the Ravens definitely having an interest in resigning him, he may decide to test the waters for more money though. I'd say he's a 4 million dollar a year TE. Chandler might be a 3 million dollar a year guy.

Fred Davis is a wild card, his impact was lessened because of the emergence of Jordan Reed and then all of the issues that team in general had. With all that information his value on the market is likely to be lowish, and he can likely match Chandler's numbers at a lower salary.

[stuckincincy]

Run stuffing tackles are easier to find than penetrators like Williams and Dareus. We need to add a run stuffer to the rotation for early downs and add another LB

They should have gone after Pat Sims, now with OAK.

[X-Era]

Marrone wants an up tempo offense. He has a QB that throws short very often. The TE position could be very important for future success. Chandler is not the sort of fast receiving TE that best suits our offense.

I'm fine with upgrading his position with a true receiving TE.

[better days]

Marrone wants an up tempo offense. He has a QB that throws short very often. The TE position could be very important for future success. Chandler is not the sort of fast receiving TE that best suits our offense.

I'm fine with upgrading his position with a true receiving TE.

Well, Moeaki or Gragg may fill that roll of fast receiving TE.

[X-Era]

Well, Moeaki or Gragg may fill that roll of fast receiving TE.Possibly.

At thi spoint I would not rule out a TE early in the draft though.

[justasportsfan]

Agree on Pitta with the Ravens definitely having an interest in resigning him, he may decide to test the waters for more money though. I'd say he's a 4 million dollar a year TE. Chandler might be a 3 million dollar a year guy.

Fred Davis is a wild card, his impact was lessened because of the emergence of Jordan Reed and then all of the issues that team in general had. With all that information his value on the market is likely to be lowish, and he can likely match Chandler's numbers at a lower salary.

one thing you have to consider is that Pitta had his best season (which was almost similar to Chandlers) with Flacco throwing to him while Chandler had EJ/Thad/Tuel.