Luck really IS the next Manning

[YardRat]

http://canadianfirstaid.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/choking.jpg

[BertSquirtgum]

He stinks and his beard is awful.

[SquishDaFish]

I still would take Luck on our team in a heartbeat

[Skooby]

Yeah, making the playoffs 2 years in a row after one of the worst seasons in Colts history makes him a complete loser.

[YardRat]

Yeah, making the playoffs 2 years in a row after one of the worst seasons in Colts history makes him a complete loser.

Did you just call Peyton Manning a 'complete loser'?

[BertSquirtgum]

Yeah, making the playoffs 2 years in a row after one of the worst seasons in Colts history makes him a complete loser.

Nope. His beard and his voice does. Sounds like he is gargling a peener when he speaks.

[Mouldsie]

Best player in the NFL

[JohnnyGold]

Best player in the NFL

i respectfully disagree. Kap is head and shoulders above everyone.

Every time I watch him play, I find myself looking around the room,

either

A) asking people if they just saw the throw he made, because I thought he was a "running" quarterback

or

B) asking people if he really just ran for 40 yards and safely got out of bounds while laughing at the defensive backfield

I never played the game, I never coached the game, I never scouted for the game--but all I can go on is 20 years of watching it.

I have never seen a player look so much better than everyone else on the field than Kaepernick. The 49ers were a defensive stop away from winning the Super Bowl last year, had a great season this year, and just won a tough playoff game on the road last week.

If he goes out and beats Caroline this week on the road, you're going to have a tough time convincing me that he isn't the best player in the game.

[Meathead]

you gotta be fkn wit me

marcia is eeeeeasily the best nfl player right now. thats a freakin one man team right there. might be the best nfl player ever. i hope i choke and die on those words but its true. and if its not me i hope its him. or that fat mediocre lucky bastard cheater he has for a coach

[Mouldsie]

you gotta be fkn wit me

marcia is eeeeeasily the best nfl player right now. thats a freakin one man team right there. might be the best nfl player ever. i hope i choke and die on those words but its true. and if its not me i hope its him. or that fat mediocre lucky bastard cheater he has for a coach
THey didnt need him tonight!

[BuffaloRedleg]

Talking **** about a 2nd year QB who led his team single-handedly to two straight playoffs after they went 2-14 the season before he was drafted.

It's almost as if none have you have ever watched a Bills game in the last 13 years.

[Crisis]

kap is the best player in the NFL? this board man

[Meathead]

THey didnt need hioht!

im sure the defense having to always keep one eye on the best qb ever doesnt help the running game at all

[YardRat]

Talking **** about a 2nd year QB who led his team single-handedly to two straight playoffs after they went 2-14 the season before he was drafted.

It's almost as if none have you have ever watched a Bills game in the last 13 years.

No, it's talking **** about a QB that puts up numbers and wins in the regular season and than grunts out 8 picks in three playoff games.

Hell, the year the Colts did manage to win it all with PM at the helm he had a TD/INT ratio of 3/7, so it's not like he carried the team on his back then.

QB's are nice for the regular season and getting to the playoffs, but once the post season starts they just have to stay out of the way, don't piss away the games, and let the running attack and defense carry the load to a championship.

[pmoon6]

No, it's talking **** about a QB that puts up numbers and wins in the regular season and than grunts out 8 picks in three playoff games.

Hell, the year the Colts did manage to win it all with PM at the helm he had a TD/INT ratio of 3/7, so it's not like he carried the team on his back then.

QB's are nice for the regular season and getting to the playoffs, but once the post season starts they just have to stay out of the way, don't piss away the games, and let the running attack and defense carry the load to a championship.But, But, but, defense doesn't win championships anymore.

It's all about the overprotected guys in a dress behind center.

[Owen DeBoard]

i respectfully disagree. Kap is head and shoulders above everyone.

Every time I watch him play, I find myself looking around the room,

either

A) asking people if they just saw the throw he made, because I thought he was a "running" quarterback

or

B) asking people if he really just ran for 40 yards and safely got out of bounds while laughing at the defensive backfield

I never played the game, I never coached the game, I never scouted for the game--but all I can go on is 20 years of watching it.

I have never seen a player look so much better than everyone else on the field than Kaepernick. The 49ers were a defensive stop away from winning the Super Bowl last year, had a great season this year, and just won a tough playoff game on the road last week.

If he goes out and beats Caroline this week on the road, you're going to have a tough time convincing me that he isn't the best player in the game.
I hope your joking. Put Luck on that 49ers team that has all that talent and that team wins the Superbowl with out anyone being close to them. Luck has T Y HILTON to throw to that's it. That guy probably wouldn't be a 3rd WR on any other team. Luck also doesn't have a good running back either. Give him time and he will be the best QB in the league very soon.

[SquishDaFish]

Wow I dont know about this board anymore. Now people are saying Kaep is the best in the NFL??? You are either on the :shortbus: Or smoking some good crack. Put Luck or even Alex Smith on the Niners and they are the #1 seed and favorites for the SB. Kaep is good but not the best.

[Turf]

After watching how Luck can thread the needle and wiz the ball down the field, made me realize how bad EJ is. EJ can't hit a wide open guy, and this guy is throwing pinpoint rocket passes to barely open receivers for touchdowns. Lucks a real NFL QB. We currently don't have one.

[Thurmal]

Luck has NO ONE on that team. No one. He will be, unequivocally, the best player in the NFL within three years.

[Turf]

Luck has NO ONE on that team. No one. He will be, unequivocally, the best player in the NFL within three years.

I really hadn't watched him that much, but his pocket presence is also amazing. The one play he stepped up and just read everything so well, he knew exactly when to move. This guy is really really good. I honestly had no idea until yesterday. Have to agree with you. That being said Wilson has the same sense as well, just not the same arm.

[feldspar]

http://canadianfirstaid.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/choking.jpg

Quarterbacks aren't so important to win championships, though.

Right, buddy?

[The Popcorn]

Yes, he made mistakes. Not having your best WR and TE hurts a lot. The OL isn't that good but better than last year. Luck will be fine. He's young and still learning. You can't call a QB a choker after his second season in the NFL. If he does this for the next 2-3 years, then you can make the comparisons.

[Novacane]

I'd take Luck in a heartbeat!

[Meathead]

so indy goes from peyton for over a decade to andrew for at least the next decade. thats even better than cheater fans having the best qb ever fall in their laps in the sixth round

id like to find an island and put all the fans of both teams on it and drop crates of rusty blunt weapons, watch it on ppv for a few weeks, then nuke em. is that wrong?

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

so indy goes from peyton for over a decade to andrew for at least the next decade. thats even better than cheater fans having the best qb ever fall in their laps in the sixth round

id like to find an island and put all the fans of both teams on it and drop crates of rusty blunt weapons, watch it on ppv for a few weeks, then nuke em. is that wrong?

here's where you're wrong, Meathead. They are so f'iing lucky, they would probably all live and thrive.

[YardRat]

Quarterbacks aren't so important to win championships, though.

Right, buddy?

They just need to not lose them...Pal :D

If it weren't so, Peyton would have more rings, and the one he DOES have wouldn't have come in the season where he put up his worse numbers.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

They just need to not lose them...Pal :D

If it weren't so, Peyton would have more rings, and the one he DOES have wouldn't have come in the season where he put up his worse numbers.

Well surely all the rings Adrian Peterson racked up shows how running games win titles.

[Mr. Pink]

Well surely all the rings Adrian Peterson racked up shows how running games win titles.

Lets play a little game...

Greatest RB's in NFL history - Jim Brown 1 NFL title, Walter Payton 1 NFL title, OJ Simpson 0 NFL titles, Barry Sanders 0, Eric Dickerson 0, Emmitt Smith 3, Adrian Peterson 0. So there's 5 titles among 7 guys. A list that has spanned 50 years of NFL play as well and arguably the Cowboys won more because of Aikman than Smith.

Tom Brady, with no running game, 3 titles. Peyton Manning, with no running game, 1 titles. Drew Brees, with no running game, 1 title.

7 of the greatest RBs of all time have as many titles as 3 top current QBs.

But yeah, QB play isn't important and you can run to titles just as easily.

Hell Tom Brady alone has played in more title games than Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, OJ Simpson and Adrian Peterson combined.

[Beebe's Kid]

Once EJ works on his footwork and progresses, he should be able to get the Bills where they are looking to go.

Until then, people are just going to have to keep making ridiculous statements about other teams players. The teams that retain talent and have a winning strategy. Maybe after a few more rebuilds the Bills will see the top of the mountain.

To laugh at any playoff team, while dedicating your time and money to the Bills is pretty funny.

[BuffaloRedleg]

No, it's talking **** about a QB that puts up numbers and wins in the regular season and than grunts out 8 picks in three playoff games.

Hell, the year the Colts did manage to win it all with PM at the helm he had a TD/INT ratio of 3/7, so it's not like he carried the team on his back then.

QB's are nice for the regular season and getting to the playoffs, but once the post season starts they just have to stay out of the way, don't piss away the games, and let the running attack and defense carry the load to a championship.

He's been in the league for 2 years.

2 years.

I know he was majorly hyped when he came in the league, but to expect a guy to just come in and win SBs in his first 2 seasons single-handedly is absolutely absurd.

[Bill Cody]

No, it's talking **** about a QB that puts up numbers and wins in the regular season and than grunts out 8 picks in three playoff games.

Hell, the year the Colts did manage to win it all with PM at the helm he had a TD/INT ratio of 3/7, so it's not like he carried the team on his back then.

QB's are nice for the regular season and getting to the playoffs, but once the post season starts they just have to stay out of the way, don't piss away the games, and let the running attack and defense carry the load to a championship.
he just completed the 2nd greatest comeback in NFL history last week. He made some throws in the NE game that were great. The picks weren't but he is a great player. The Colts are a 5 win team without him.

[JohnnyGold]

Wow I dont know about this board anymore. Now people are saying Kaep is the best in the NFL??? You are either on the :shortbus: Or smoking some good crack. Put Luck or even Alex Smith on the Niners and they are the #1 seed and favorites for the SB. Kaep is good but not the best.

you guys sound like you watch 16 bills games a year, and read a bunch of espn stories telling you that Luck and Brady are the kings of the NFL.

another weekend--another kap win. 49ers back in the nfc championship game. easily could be going to back to back super bowls--still cant believe the ravens won last year.

im going to bookmark this thread, so we can all revisit it in the future. believe what you see, not what espn tells you. kap's got it all, the arm, the legs, the attitude.

best player in the league, i dont care if you think im smoking crack or riding a ****** bus. luck is sitting at home after throwing 6 interceptions this post season, kaps playing for (another) trip to the super bowl--defend that, you crack smoking ******. :)

[IlluminatusUIUC]

you guys sound like you watch 16 bills games a year, and read a bunch of espn stories telling you that Luck and Brady are the kings of the NFL.

another weekend--another kap win. 49ers back in the nfc championship game. easily could be going to back to back super bowls--still cant believe the ravens won last year.

im going to bookmark this thread, so we can all revisit it in the future. believe what you see, not what espn tells you. kap's got it all, the arm, the legs, the attitude.

best player in the league, i dont care if you think im smoking crack or riding a ****** bus. luck is sitting at home after throwing 6 interceptions this post season, kaps playing for (another) trip to the super bowl--defend that, you crack smoking ******. :)

I like Kaepernick a lot, and he's fun to watch but come on now. He's not even the best player on his own team.

[SquishDaFish]

you guys sound like you watch 16 bills games a year, and read a bunch of espn stories telling you that Luck and Brady are the kings of the NFL.

another weekend--another kap win. 49ers back in the nfc championship game. easily could be going to back to back super bowls--still cant believe the ravens won last year.

im going to bookmark this thread, so we can all revisit it in the future. believe what you see, not what espn tells you. kap's got it all, the arm, the legs, the attitude.

best player in the league, i dont care if you think im smoking crack or riding a ****** bus. luck is sitting at home after throwing 6 interceptions this post season, kaps playing for (another) trip to the super bowl--defend that, you crack smoking ******. :)

LOL :shortbus:

[JohnnyGold]

I like Kaepernick a lot, and he's fun to watch but come on now. He's not even the best player on his own team.


Look man--i INTENTIONALLY avoid watching sports "news" shoes on espn, foxsports news, espn.com---all of that. For the very simple reason that I like to believe what I personally see, not what I'm told.

In Kap, I see a qb who makes plays with his arm, makes plays with his legs, rarely makes devastating mistakes, and is within a victory of being the first qb since tom brady (a decade ago) to go to back to back super bowls.

In Luck, I see a qb who ***** the bed last year in the playoffs, ***** the bed for the first half of this years wild card game this year, and then absolutely looked like garbage yesterday in new england. 2 of those picks that he threw yesterday, if EJ threw them, I PROMISE you 95% of this board would be calling for him to be benched.

Kap passes the "eye test"-- he just has "it". And no matter how much espn.com tries to tell me that Luck has "it", to me, so far, he doesn't. Can he be good? Sure. Hell, he might even win a super bowl or 2.

I just have a feeling, based on what I've seen (not what I've been told), that Kap's 49ers are going to be the NFC's 2001-2015 Patriots. A team that you can pencil into the conference championship game every single season. Yeah they have a good coach, yeah they have a good defense, but at the end of the day, you need a qb that can have the ball in his hands for half the games and make the plays necessary to win 3 or 4 football games in January.

The colts don't have that yet--we've seen that.
The 49ers do have that--we've also seen that.

[JohnnyGold]

LOL :shortbus:

I mean, you can laugh at me--but Luck threw 3 garbage interceptions yesterday and is at home, again.

Kap has played 2 excellent playoff games in a row (on the road), and is a win away from the Super Bowl, again.

If Luck was picked in the third round, he would be treated like Andy Dalton.

But... he's the next best thing I guess, so let's ignore his garbage playoff performances and talk about how amazing he is, because someday he's going to be amazing, and let's laugh at Kap for being good, because he's not supposed to be the best in the league.

[pmoon6]

I mean, you can laugh at me--but Luck threw 3 garbage interceptions yesterday and is at home, again.

Kap has played 2 excellent playoff games in a row (on the road), and is a win away from the Super Bowl, again.

If Luck was picked in the third round, he would be treated like Andy Dalton.

But... he's the next best thing I guess, so let's ignore his garbage playoff performances and talk about how amazing he is, because someday he's going to be amazing, and let's laugh at Kap for being good, because he's not supposed to be the best in the league.Without the refs basically aiding SF to get 13 points, Kaepernick might be sitting home next week.

[Owen DeBoard]

Look man--i INTENTIONALLY avoid watching sports "news" shoes on espn, foxsports news, espn.com---all of that. For the very simple reason that I like to believe what I personally see, not what I'm told.

In Kap, I see a qb who makes plays with his arm, makes plays with his legs, rarely makes devastating mistakes, and is within a victory of being the first qb since tom brady (a decade ago) to go to back to back super bowls.

In Luck, I see a qb who ***** the bed last year in the playoffs, ***** the bed for the first half of this years wild card game this year, and then absolutely looked like garbage yesterday in new england. 2 of those picks that he threw yesterday, if EJ threw them, I PROMISE you 95% of this board would be calling for him to be benched.

Kap passes the "eye test"-- he just has "it". And no matter how much espn.com tries to tell me that Luck has "it", to me, so far, he doesn't. Can he be good? Sure. Hell, he might even win a super bowl or 2.

I just have a feeling, based on what I've seen (not what I've been told), that Kap's 49ers are going to be the NFC's 2001-2015 Patriots. A team that you can pencil into the conference championship game every single season. Yeah they have a good coach, yeah they have a good defense, but at the end of the day, you need a qb that can have the ball in his hands for half the games and make the plays necessary to win 3 or 4 football games in January.

The colts don't have that yet--we've seen that.
The 49ers do have that--we've also seen that.
I don't listen to the media either because I think Tom Brady is the most overhyped player of all time. Sure hes got rings but last time I checked its a TEAM game. If you want to tell me hes the best QB of all time then give me career stats because that's the only way you can compare the same position. Last time I checked Peyton owns the records. He hasn't always had the great defenses Brady had when he won the rings also. Now back to Luck and Kap. Put Luck on the niners team and Kap on the Colts then tell me how you think each would do.

[pmoon6]

I don't listen to the media either because I think Tom Brady is the most overhyped player of all time. Sure hes got rings but last time I checked its a TEAM game. If you want to tell me hes the best QB of all time then give me career stats because that's the only way you can compare the same position. Last time I checked Peyton owns the records. He hasn't always had the great defenses Brady had when he won the rings also. Now back to Luck and Kap. Put Luck on the niners team and Kap on the Colts then tell me how you think each would do.You can't even do that. Hard to compare different eras, but you definitely can't compare post 2000 stats with what came before. It's a different game. They engineered the game exactly for the purpose of having records broken and an aerial circus.

[Owen DeBoard]

You can't even do that. Hard to compare different eras, but you definitely can't compare post 2000 stats with what came before. It's a different game. They engineered the game exactly for the purpose of having records broken and an aerial circus.
Yes you have a point but im tired of hearing that Tom Brady is the best QB of all time. Between him and Manning Manning is clearly the better QB.

[BuffaloRedleg]

I mean, you can laugh at me--but Luck threw 3 garbage interceptions yesterday and is at home, again.

Kap has played 2 excellent playoff games in a row (on the road), and is a win away from the Super Bowl, again.

If Luck was picked in the third round, he would be treated like Andy Dalton.

But... he's the next best thing I guess, so let's ignore his garbage playoff performances and talk about how amazing he is, because someday he's going to be amazing, and let's laugh at Kap for being good, because he's not supposed to be the best in the league.

You must have forgot the part where the 9ers were still SB contenders with Alex Smith.

Luck, Rodgers, Brees, Brady would KILL to have a supporting cast as good as Kap. Hell I could play QB on that team and it'd still be a close game, the defense and running game are that good.

[pmoon6]

Yes you have a point but im tired of hearing that Tom Brady is the best QB of all time. Between him and Manning Manning is clearly the better QB.Yes, I would say that Manning is better than Brady. However, all time he is not better than Montana, Marino, Elway, Unitas or Otto Graham.

It has to a comfort to know that your offensive line won't get called for holding and you can survey the field for 5 seconds. That goes for all the "superstar" QBs in today's game. And if they do get hit, there must be something terribly wrong.

[Mace]

Luck is young yet, for that matter so is evil browed Andy Dalton.

I find it funny that the media is all over Dalton being inadequate, where Luck is "learning". Haven't seen any media suggesting Indy moves on from Luck because he's not cutting it. Compare their stats and Dalton looks better, atm.

Yet still the media treats Dalton like a red headed stepchild, and treats Luck like he isn't red headed.

[Night Train]

I always viewed Manning as being the QB on the 2nd-4th best overall team in the AFC, most of his career in Indy.

Certain teams are built better for the playoffs, regardless of their regular season record. Indy always had a couple good pass rushers on D and 9 average guys that had lots of trouble tackling. Hated that Cover 2. Their secondary was brutal. (Polian did that )

Gave up A LOT of yardage, which forced then to stop running Faulk/James and fall back on Manning to just win the game with his arm. It worked just once in a SB but he pressed most other years.

Brady played on far more complete teams with solid D play. So did Ben R up until the last couple years. Look at the Giants D play, the 2 years they ran the table with Eli. They were dominating.

Don't view Peyton as a choker. Looking like he may get Brady again next Sunday at Denver, so I'll watch and learn. This Denver D is good.

[YardRat]

Well surely all the rings Adrian Peterson racked up shows how running games win titles.


Lets play a little game...

Greatest RB's in NFL history - Jim Brown 1 NFL title, Walter Payton 1 NFL title, OJ Simpson 0 NFL titles, Barry Sanders 0, Eric Dickerson 0, Emmitt Smith 3, Adrian Peterson 0. So there's 5 titles among 7 guys. A list that has spanned 50 years of NFL play as well and arguably the Cowboys won more because of Aikman than Smith.

Tom Brady, with no running game, 3 titles. Peyton Manning, with no running game, 1 titles. Drew Brees, with no running game, 1 title.

7 of the greatest RBs of all time have as many titles as 3 top current QBs.

But yeah, QB play isn't important and you can run to titles just as easily.

Hell Tom Brady alone has played in more title games than Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, OJ Simpson and Adrian Peterson combined.

'Big names' without titles can be thrown out for any individual position, I hope you don't think that proves anything.

Instead of 'playing' a little game, how about actually 'watching' a few?

Start with this weekend's divisional playoffs...pay attention to the QB's, the defenses, and the rushing attacks. Just for giggles, because you mentioned them, go back and watch Brady's three runs to a tiltle, and Manning's single run, and tell anybody that running the ball and defense doesn't win championships. If yu can actually do that with a straight face, that is. Brees may the exception, but then again his title was cemented by a late INT thrown by Manning (which is the original premise of the thread, ironically) returned for a pick 6 by the defense to ice the game.

Wilson = 107 yards passing.
Kap = 15 of 30.
NE = 4 picks and 5 rushing TD's.
After three quarters, San Diego is getting shut out. Not by Manning, by Denver's defense.

Gee...who da thunk it?

[BuffaloRedleg]

I always viewed Manning as being the QB on the 2nd-4th best overall team in the AFC, most of his career in Indy.

Certain teams are built better for the playoffs, regardless of their regular season record. Indy always had a couple good pass rushers on D and 9 average guys that had lots of trouble tackling. Hated that Cover 2. Their secondary was brutal. (Polian did that )

Gave up A LOT of yardage, which forced then to stop running Faulk/James and fall back on Manning to just win the game with his arm. It worked just once in a SB but he pressed most other years.

Brady played on far more complete teams with solid D play. So did Ben R up until the last couple years. Look at the Giants D play, the 2 years they ran the table with Eli. They were dominating.

Don't view Peyton as a choker. Looking like he may get Brady again next Sunday at Denver, so I'll watch and learn. This Denver D is good.

Let's not forget coaching. People are forgetting that Belicheat is one of the greatest (albeit most maligned) coaches ever. He knows how to gameplan better than anyone in the league right now and that helps a ton in the playoffs.

Manning never had close to a coach like that and we literally the only reason those teams were greatly succesfull.

[Mr. Pink]

'Big names' without titles can be thrown out for any individual position, I hope you don't think that proves anything.

Instead of 'playing' a little game, how about actually 'watching' a few?

Start with this weekend's divisional playoffs...pay attention to the QB's, the defenses, and the rushing attacks. Just for giggles, because you mentioned them, go back and watch Brady's three runs to a tiltle, and Manning's single run, and tell anybody that running the ball and defense doesn't win championships. If yu can actually do that with a straight face, that is. Brees may the exception, but then again his title was cemented by a late INT thrown by Manning (which is the original premise of the thread, ironically) returned for a pick 6 by the defense to ice the game.

Wilson = 107 yards passing.
Kap = 15 of 30.
NE = 4 picks and 5 rushing TD's.
After three quarters, San Diego is getting shut out. Not by Manning, by Denver's defense.

Gee...who da thunk it?

And since you're cherry picking single games...how do you think the Colts won last week vs KC? On the back of Andrew Luck's 440 yards and 4 TDs.

How do you think the 49ers beat the Packers? On the back of Kap's 300 yards of total offense and a last second field goal drive.

You can cherry pick games either way, one game doesn't make a trend. Years of NFL history have made a trend. Superstar QBs, since the forward pass, have always been to more title games not only just won them than superstar running backs.

What team with sustained success hasn't had an elite QB? Name one.

Never mind this entire argument is an exercise in futility. When the Vikings win a championship with the best back in the league let me know since you're stuck in 1920s no forward pass mentality of football and think that's what wins in this league.

[Owen DeBoard]

Let's not forget coaching. People are forgetting that Belicheat is one of the greatest (albeit most maligned) coaches ever. He knows how to gameplan better than anyone in the league right now and that helps a ton in the playoffs.

Manning never had close to a coach like that and we literally the only reason those teams were greatly succesfull.
Well said.

[YardRat]

Well surely all the rings Adrian Peterson racked up shows how running games win titles.


And since you're cherry picking single games...how do you think the Colts won last week vs KC? On the back of Andrew Luck's 440 yards and 4 TDs.

How do you think the 49ers beat the Packers? On the back of Kap's 300 yards of total offense and a last second field goal drive.

You can cherry pick games either way, one game doesn't make a trend. Years of NFL history have made a trend. Superstar QBs, since the forward pass, have always been to more title games not only just won them than superstar running backs.

What team with sustained success hasn't had an elite QB? Name one.

Never mind this entire argument is an exercise in futility. When the Vikings win a championship with the best back in the league let me know since you're stuck in 1920s no forward pass mentality of football and think that's what wins in this league.

All four games in one weekend actually does make a trend. Years of championships driven by defense and winning the trenches is the trend.

Name one team with sustained success without an elite QB? Really? Bart Starr was elite? Bob Griese? Bradshaw was the driving force behind Pittsburgh, and Harris and their defense was secondary? Washington and Oakland didn't win SB's with different QB's? Jim McMahon was 'elite'? Brad Johnson? Jeff Hostetler? How many titles did Brady bring home when he was slinging the ball all over the field vs how many he won with a dominant defense and clutch kicker? How many did Elway win without Davis? Put Aikman, in his prime, on today's Dallas team and do they still miss the playoffs? Ya think ROMO would like to have Emmitt Smith, that oline and that D right now?

What is your definition of sustained success? Simply making it to the playoffs, or multiple titles? If it's the former, granted, I've already said a QB will help get you through the regular season and in to the playoffs. Championships? The evidence is not in your corner.

Hell, wide receivers have had bigger affect on titles than QB's in recent years. Boldin bailed out Flacco the entire post season last year. Manning with Tyree and Manningham. Pittsburgh with Holmes.

[Mace]

What team with sustained success hasn't had an elite QB? Name one.

Baltimore. You don't surely think Flacco is elite and compares to Brees, Manning, Brady or Rodgers ? Did you see his do or die game this year, or how he was against us ?

Interesting article about "elite" QB's from early 2013.....http://dailycollegian.com/2013/02/15/what-defines-an-elite-nfl-quarterback/

You'll see Sam Bradford comparable to Eli Manning, and Flacco.

[Mace]

You must have forgot the part where the 9ers were still SB contenders with Alex Smith.

No offense my old chum, but Alex Smith is looking not like early Alex Smith. The guy is actually pretty good, through numerous OC's and schemes, a career battering, and has maintained a real professional composure about it all.

I used to hate Alex Smith, now I really like Alex Smith. I mean I don't like him too much and don't know him personally, but he's looking like a fine QB.

[BuffaloRedleg]

No offense my old chum, but Alex Smith is looking not like early Alex Smith. The guy is actually pretty good, through numerous OC's and schemes, a career battering, and has maintained a real professional composure about it all.

I used to hate Alex Smith, now I really like Alex Smith. I mean I don't like him too much and don't know him personally, but he's looking like a fine QB.

Schaudenfreude.

[Turf]

Blind hatred aside, Brady is the best QB ever to play the game.

[feldspar]

They just need to not lose them...Pal :D

If it weren't so, Peyton would have more rings, and the one he DOES have wouldn't have come in the season where he put up his worse numbers.

You are being ridiculous.

Peyton Manning is out for a year, and the Colts win TWO games that year. This after going to the playoffs every single year before that. Then the Colts get Andrew Luck and they make the playoffs both years he's been there. Is this some crazy sort of coincidence?

Quality QB play is THE most important thing to have, and there shouldn't even be a debate about that.

[Mr. Pink]

All four games in one weekend actually does make a trend. Years of championships driven by defense and winning the trenches is the trend.

Name one team with sustained success without an elite QB? Really? Bart Starr was elite? Bob Griese? Bradshaw was the driving force behind Pittsburgh, and Harris and their defense was secondary? Washington and Oakland didn't win SB's with different QB's? Jim McMahon was 'elite'? Brad Johnson? Jeff Hostetler? How many titles did Brady bring home when he was slinging the ball all over the field vs how many he won with a dominant defense and clutch kicker? How many did Elway win without Davis? Put Aikman, in his prime, on today's Dallas team and do they still miss the playoffs? Ya think ROMO would like to have Emmitt Smith, that oline and that D right now?

What is your definition of sustained success? Simply making it to the playoffs, or multiple titles? If it's the former, granted, I've already said a QB will help get you through the regular season and in to the playoffs. Championships? The evidence is not in your corner.

Hell, wide receivers have had bigger affect on titles than QB's in recent years. Boldin bailed out Flacco the entire post season last year. Manning with Tyree and Manningham. Pittsburgh with Holmes.

Bart Starr HOF. Terry Bradshaw HOF. Bob Griese HOF.

I said sustained success not one and done. If the Bears of the mid 80s had an elite QB, they woulda won more than one Superbowl. If the Bucs had an elite QB, they would have won more than one Superbowl. We won't mention that in both of those Superbowl years, both QBs had arguably the best years of their career.

Aikman on Dallas now would be one of the top teams in the NFC. Brady has never had a running game, this year is the closest to one he's ever seen. Elway went to 3 without Davis, 2 with. Again statistically he was at his best later in his career when he wasn't their entire offense.

Sustained success is a team that is capable of reaching the Superbowl multiples years over a span of time. The Steelers had sustained success not once but twice...both times they had elite QB play. One from a HOFer, one from a multiple probowler who likely will also be a HOFer. The Browns had sustained success in the 50s thanks to Otto Graham, the Packers and Colts had sustained success in the 60s thanks to Starr and Unitas. Steelers thanks to Bradshaw in the 70s. 49ers in the 80s thanks to Joe Montana. Cowboys in the 90s thanks to Aikman. 2000s thanks Tom Brady.

Why do you think all of these teams, except the 49ers cuz Young might have been better than Montana, fell apart after the QB left if he's not important? Otto Graham retired and the Browns were bad enough to draft Jim Brown. The Steelers were a laughingstock in the 80s when Bradshaw left. The Cowboys had Quincy Carter bumbling around. The Colts after Unitas left were rendered basically meaningless for decades til Manning showed up. The Packers were just as meaningless in the NFC until Favre showed up.

Is this some kind of just accident or random event that these teams when they lost their QB, turned into crappy teams?

Look at the Bills pretty much floundering since Kelly left. They've had good defenses - Donahoe era and good running games. Where has that gotten them? 14 years and counting of no playoffs.

You can put elite running backs on teams and they can be bottom feeders, you put an elite QB on a team and that team will never be a bottom feeder. Want proof? Look at how bad the Bears were when Payton was there before McMahon showed up. Look at how bad the Lions teams Sanders played for. Look at how bad the Vikings are with Peterson.

[pmoon6]

I find this arguing about QB vs RB vs Defense to be hilarious. You can't win without good players at every position and you have to have some great ones. You have to have a good QB and you have to have a good defense. No matter how much they change the game to emphasize offense, you can win with a stellar defense. Seattle is a great example, so is San Francisco. Sorry to have to break it to the morons, but their defenses won those games this weekend.

Another thing the modern fan doesn't understand is that regardless of perception, there is not that much difference between teams that "suck" and teams that make the playoffs and a game where you get blown out can easily turn into an overtime game the very next week.

[Owen DeBoard]

Blind hatred aside, Brady is the best QB ever to play the game.
If this is the case give me a reason you think he is and don't use superbowl rings either because it takes a TEAM to win a championship not just one position. Tell me how his numbers are better than Peytons.

[pmoon6]

Blind hatred aside, Brady is the best QB ever to play the game.:rofl:

[Historian]

Marv used to say it was a team effort, from the GM, right down to the girls in the ticket office.

[ThunderGun]

Nope. His beard and his voice does. Sounds like he is gargling a peener when he speaks.

If your profile is correct, you live here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ransomville,_New_York

Ransomville, NY, a hamlet in the Town of Porter, with a population of about 1,400 people. Now, I don't know what you do for a living, but I'm guessing you don't get paid $22 million dollars, to be the face of a $1.06 billion dollar company. So if Luck's beard and voice make him a loser, despite all of his success, what does that make you?

[Mike]

Luck is young yet, for that matter so is evil browed Andy Dalton.

I find it funny that the media is all over Dalton being inadequate, where Luck is "learning". Haven't seen any media suggesting Indy moves on from Luck because he's not cutting it. Compare their stats and Dalton looks better, atm.

Yet still the media treats Dalton like a red headed stepchild, and treats Luck like he isn't red headed.

Dalton has a top defense, one of the best WR in the NFL, awesome weapons and lost to a San Diego team that had no business being in the playoff. In fact, thats all he's done is lose in the playoffs.

Luck doesn't have a top defense, his WR are pedestrian outside of Hilton, there are no weapons and he's takes a 2-14 team to playoff wins in each of his first 2 seasons. He just beat a KC team that went 11-5, with a top defense, being down by 28!

[Mike]

'Big names' without titles can be thrown out for any individual position, I hope you don't think that proves anything.

Instead of 'playing' a little game, how about actually 'watching' a few?

Start with this weekend's divisional playoffs...pay attention to the QB's, the defenses, and the rushing attacks. Just for giggles, because you mentioned them, go back and watch Brady's three runs to a tiltle, and Manning's single run, and tell anybody that running the ball and defense doesn't win championships. If yu can actually do that with a straight face, that is. Brees may the exception, but then again his title was cemented by a late INT thrown by Manning (which is the original premise of the thread, ironically) returned for a pick 6 by the defense to ice the game.

Wilson = 107 yards passing.
Kap = 15 of 30.
NE = 4 picks and 5 rushing TD's.
After three quarters, San Diego is getting shut out. Not by Manning, by Denver's defense.

Gee...who da thunk it?

Your argument is silly. Basically your saying a great QB can't win a SB alone.... Which is obvious;)

[Mike13]

Never mind this entire argument is an exercise in futility. When the Vikings win a championship with the best back in the league let me know since you're stuck in 1920s no forward pass mentality of football and think that's what wins in this league.

Thats all that needs to be said.

[Bill Cody]

He stinks and his beard is awful.

He shaved it

[IlluminatusUIUC]

How many titles did Brady bring home when he was slinging the ball all over the field vs how many he won with a dominant defense and clutch kicker?

The 2007 Patriots had a Top 5 defense. In fact, the Giants had the worst defense of any team in the playoffs that year.


How many did Elway win without Davis?

In 1989, Elway had the #1 defense in the league and the #7 rushing game, both significantly better than San Francisco's. Joe Montana crapped all over them.


What is your definition of sustained success? Simply making it to the playoffs, or multiple titles? If it's the former, granted, I've already said a QB will help get you through the regular season and in to the playoffs. Championships? The evidence is not in your corner.

Hell, wide receivers have had bigger affect on titles than QB's in recent years. Boldin bailed out Flacco the entire post season last year. Manning with Tyree and Manningham. Pittsburgh with Holmes.

Tyree had 8 catches that season and you're giving him credit for the Super Bowl win? Santonio Holmes? If the vaunted Pittsburgh defense could have held a 13 point fourth quarter lead, he wouldn't have been necessary.

Building a team around running and defense gives you so little margin for error. If your defense can't hold early, you can be out of the game by halftime.

[BillsFever21]

Luck makes some incredible plays and will cut down on the turnovers. He took a 2-14 team straight into the playoffs the past two seasons since being drafted. There isn't much talent on that team at all. He needs to take chances for the team to succeed. He makes some incredible passes that we only wish EJ could make.

What sucks for them is they gave up their 1st round pick this year for Trent Richardson. What a horrible move that was. Their defense still needs upgrades and their OL and offensive weapons are terrible especially after Wayne was injured. Even with that Luck makes it work. That draft pick will hurt them getting another weapon on offense or an OL to help block. Even after all of that they still need a good RB since Richardson is just a bust. He was even worse after going to Indy.

TY Hilton is their #1 WR and that says all you need to know. He's decent but not great and there isn't anybody outside of him at wideout. This is the TY Hilton that the Bills drafted TJ Graham over a couple years ago not to mention Russel Wilson and Nick Foles along with it.

[Mace]

Dalton has a top defense, one of the best WR in the NFL, awesome weapons and lost to a San Diego team that had no business being in the playoff. In fact, thats all he's done is lose in the playoffs.

Luck doesn't have a top defense, his WR are pedestrian outside of Hilton, there are no weapons and he's takes a 2-14 team to playoff wins in each of his first 2 seasons. He just beat a KC team that went 11-5, with a top defense, being down by 28!

Hm, you may want to look back at Elway's defenses in the 14 years it took him to win the big one. Luck just went 20 of 41 with 2 td's and 4 int's for another exit. I'm not real sure what Bills/KC game you saw, but there wasn't much way "The Anointed One" (we had Jeff Tuel) wasn't going to beat them properly. You can easily say all Luck does is lose in the playoffs and Dalton is better in the regular season. I can give you links if you really want me to.

I understand you want Luck to be your golden girl, but he has stuff to prove yet, like Dalton does.

[YardRat]

Bart Starr HOF. Terry Bradshaw HOF. Bob Griese HOF.

I said sustained success not one and done. If the Bears of the mid 80s had an elite QB, they woulda won more than one Superbowl. If the Bucs had an elite QB, they would have won more than one Superbowl. We won't mention that in both of those Superbowl years, both QBs had arguably the best years of their career.

Aikman on Dallas now would be one of the top teams in the NFC. Brady has never had a running game, this year is the closest to one he's ever seen. Elway went to 3 without Davis, 2 with. Again statistically he was at his best later in his career when he wasn't their entire offense.

Sustained success is a team that is capable of reaching the Superbowl multiples years over a span of time. The Steelers had sustained success not once but twice...both times they had elite QB play. One from a HOFer, one from a multiple probowler who likely will also be a HOFer. The Browns had sustained success in the 50s thanks to Otto Graham, the Packers and Colts had sustained success in the 60s thanks to Starr and Unitas. Steelers thanks to Bradshaw in the 70s. 49ers in the 80s thanks to Joe Montana. Cowboys in the 90s thanks to Aikman. 2000s thanks Tom Brady.

Why do you think all of these teams, except the 49ers cuz Young might have been better than Montana, fell apart after the QB left if he's not important? Otto Graham retired and the Browns were bad enough to draft Jim Brown. The Steelers were a laughingstock in the 80s when Bradshaw left. The Cowboys had Quincy Carter bumbling around. The Colts after Unitas left were rendered basically meaningless for decades til Manning showed up. The Packers were just as meaningless in the NFC until Favre showed up.

Is this some kind of just accident or random event that these teams when they lost their QB, turned into crappy teams?

Look at the Bills pretty much floundering since Kelly left. They've had good defenses - Donahoe era and good running games. Where has that gotten them? 14 years and counting of no playoffs.

You can put elite running backs on teams and they can be bottom feeders, you put an elite QB on a team and that team will never be a bottom feeder. Want proof? Look at how bad the Bears were when Payton was there before McMahon showed up. Look at how bad the Lions teams Sanders played for. Look at how bad the Vikings are with Peterson.

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up...if you think those three were the defining factor in their teams' success, I can't help you then. Put them on a team that didn't have the defense and offensive line they enjoyed, and they become Dan Pastorini, John Hadl and Joe Ferguson. Add Aikman and Eli to the list for starters, also.

Of course it's not a coincidence that one-and-doners had their best seasons during a Super Bowl year...that's what a good team can do for a QB.

[Mace]

Of course it's not a coincidence that one-and-doners had their best seasons during a Super Bowl year...that's what a good team can do for a QB.

Pretty much covers it or the best would have more rings.

[BillsFever21]

Even the best QB's need some type of a supporting cast around them to have success. You can have a good supporting cast but if your QB isn't reliable or any good then you're destined to be a .500 team or an early playoff exit team at best.

When Manning went down the Colts had the same supporting cast and won two games that season. You don't think they would've won 11+ games and been in the playoffs with a healthy Manning? When Manning went to the Broncos they were an 8 win team that turned into a 13 win team and first round byes.

A great QB can make more out of his supporting cast on offense. You see it all the time when Rodgers, Manning or others have WR's leave in FA or go down with injuries and they still don't miss a beat. Them WR's usually doesn't do much anywhere else.

It takes a competent defense in the playoffs to help win the Super Bowl but if you don't have a good QB then your chances are slim. Rodgers won a Super Bowl without any running game or a very good defense. They were competent in the playoffs but far from dominant.

If you have a dominant defense and team around an average QB then you can win a Super Bowl but that QB has to at least play good football and make plays during the playoffs. I don't care how good your team is if Ryan Fitzpatrick, Christain Ponder, Trent Edwards or Blaine Gabbert is your QB because you're not going anywhere. Some here are acting like you just need any journeyman QB to complete a pass here and there and you will be fine.

[Mouldsie]

There is no player I would rather have on my team than Andrew Luck. Been pining for him since his freshman season. I have never had a worse man crush

[pmoon6]

Who wouldn't want Andrew Luck? He has proven so far he was worth the first pick. It is only his second year, so his failure so far in the playoffs is understandable.

[gr8slayer]

As would 25 other teams.
I still would take Luck on our team in a heartbeat

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up...if you think those three were the defining factor in their teams' success, I can't help you then. Put them on a team that didn't have the defense and offensive line they enjoyed, and they become Dan Pastorini, John Hadl and Joe Ferguson. Add Aikman and Eli to the list for starters, also.

Of course it's not a coincidence that one-and-doners had their best seasons during a Super Bowl year...that's what a good team can do for a QB.

Put a bum QB on the 1970's Steelers and what do you get? The 1990's Steelers. A team that year after year rolled out elite defenses and a running back destined for the Hall of Fame and could never close the deal.

[alohabillsfan]

The same people that say defense wins championships also say build the oline and a dominant running game. Yes the running game and defense was so awesome in the 70's. It's a passing league all you need in this league to be competitive is a good QB and a d-line. Smh at the ignorance :)
Let's see number two rushing attack Buffalo
Number two in sacks Buffalo
Number 28 in passing Buffalo
Thanks EJ :)

[SaviorEdwards]

Embarrassing to see a thread meant to trash Andrew Luck on a freakin' Bills message board...are you kidding me? The Super Bowl will be going through Lucas Oil for the next 10-15 seasons, meanwhile we'll be looking for our replacement for Jim Kelly for another 10-15 seasons.

[GingerP]

Put a bum QB on the 1970's Steelers and what do you get? The 1990's Steelers. A team that year after year rolled out elite defenses and a running back destined for the Hall of Fame and could never close the deal.

Bradshaw was a much better in the playoffs than the regular season, though. In context of his era, he was a great playoff QB who had some huge games. His number are up by a ton in playoff games, and he was a big part of the success that team had winning championships. I agree his regular season play wasn't to the level you might term "great", but he was great in the playoffs. I think he had a lot more to do with their championships than you are saying.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Bradshaw was a much better in the playoffs than the regular season, though. In context of his era, he was a great playoff QB who had some huge games. His number are up by a ton in playoff games, and he was a big part of the success that team had winning championships. I agree his regular season play wasn't to the level you might term "great", but he was great in the playoffs. I think he had a lot more to do with their championships than you are saying.

You've got my post backwards. I'm the one on Bradshaw's side.

[GingerP]

You've got my post backwards. I'm the one on Bradshaw's side.

Oops.

[WagonCircler]

http://canadianfirstaid.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/choking.jpg

Peyton asked me to tell you to suck his Omaha.

[Owen DeBoard]

i respectfully disagree. Kap is head and shoulders above everyone.

Every time I watch him play, I find myself looking around the room,

either

A) asking people if they just saw the throw he made, because I thought he was a "running" quarterback

or

B) asking people if he really just ran for 40 yards and safely got out of bounds while laughing at the defensive backfield

I never played the game, I never coached the game, I never scouted for the game--but all I can go on is 20 years of watching it.

I have never seen a player look so much better than everyone else on the field than Kaepernick. The 49ers were a defensive stop away from winning the Super Bowl last year, had a great season this year, and just won a tough playoff game on the road last week.

If he goes out and beats Caroline this week on the road, you're going to have a tough time convincing me that he isn't the best player in the game.
You still think Kapernick is the best player in the game?

[stuckincincy]

You still think Kapernick is the best player in the game?
I don't think anybody thinks Kapernick is the best player in the game.

After driving from their own 22 with 3:32 on the clock and ending up on SEA's 18 with a 1st down and 30 seconds left - and two time outs - they run a hurry-up and fling a pass directed not at the corner of the ez but around the goal line. Some basic football smarts and with 2 timeouts in their pocket, they could have rattled off 4 plays. A td + xp = SB trip.

Harbaugh and staff should be keel hauled.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I don't think anybody thinls Kapernick is the best player in the game.

After driving from their own 22 with 3:32 on the clock and ending up on SEA's 18 with a 1st down and 30 seconds left - and two time outs - they run a hurry-up and fling a pass directed not at the corner of the ez but around the goal line. Some basic football smarts and with 2 timeouts in their pocket, they could have rattled off 4 plays. A td + xp = SB trip.

Harbaugh and staff should be keel hauled.

In the Super Bowl last year, they have one of the best OLs in the game and one of the best running QBs in NFL History and throw three difficult passes from the 5 yard line. I think they have too much faith in his arm and not enough in his legs.

[jdaltroy5]

I don't think anybody thinks Kapernick is the best player in the game.
On the first page of this thread someone said that Kap is head and shoulders better than anyone else in the league.

That's why this thread reached 5 pages.

[stuckincincy]

In the Super Bowl last year, they have one of the best OLs in the game and one of the best running QBs in NFL History and throw three difficult passes from the 5 yard line. I think they have too much faith in his arm and not enough in his legs.

I think that they are just plain arrogant blockheads. Compounding the felony by not being able to tell time.

[WagonCircler]

In the Super Bowl last year, they have one of the best OLs in the game and one of the best running QBs in NFL History and throw three difficult passes from the 5 yard line. I think they have too much faith in his arm and not enough in his legs.

You think Frank Gore is one of the best RBs in NFL history?

Wow.

Gotta love young people. You all think history started the day you were born.

[stuckincincy]

Dalton has a top defense, one of the best WR in the NFL, awesome weapons and lost to a San Diego team that had no business being in the playoff. In fact, thats all he's done is lose in the playoffs.

Luck doesn't have a top defense, his WR are pedestrian outside of Hilton, there are no weapons and he's takes a 2-14 team to playoff wins in each of his first 2 seasons. He just beat a KC team that went 11-5, with a top defense, being down by 28!

Review Jay Gruden's playoff playcalls.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

You think Frank Gore is one of the best RBs in NFL history?

Wow.

Gotta love young people. You all think history started the day you were born.

You wanna read my post again and take another crack at it?

[YardRat]

OK, the 'suck his Omaha' post was funny.

[jdaltroy5]

You wanna read my post again and take another crack at it?
Don't let common sense get in the way at a good crack at young people.

[WagonCircler]

You wanna read my post again and take another crack at it?

Yeah. My bad.

(But the second part of my post is no less true.)

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Yeah. My bad.

(But the second part of my post is no less true.)

Of course it's true. Why would I be concerned with what old people did before I was around? :irule:

Anyway, I still think the 49ers should have run the ball in that situation last year. Personally I would have put the ball in Kaep's hands because it frees up the blocker. Throwing precision passes to Crabtree was a huge mistake.

[WagonCircler]

Anyway, I still think the 49ers should have run the ball in that situation last year. Personally I would have put the ball in Kaep's hands because it frees up the blocker. Throwing precision passes to Crabtree was a huge mistake.

I totally agree.

(I was going to say, ironically, ala Malcolm MacDowell and James Earl Jone that I "totes" agree, but I just couldn't do it.)