Do the Pats have a great Front Office?

[X-Era]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/04/05/patriots-alfonzo-dennard-released-after-35-days-in-jail/

There's along list of Pats draft mistakes at this point. I've clamored on it for years about how all the pick stockpiling has been mostly a waste... Just more darts but still no accuracy.

But between Hernandez and now this... I find it funny to hear anyone talk about the Pats as a classy organization. Kraft is a great person and a classy owner. But the organization has made many questionable moves for years.

[SpikedLemonade]

Those stupid bastards just keep on winning.

Why can't they show the class of the Bills?

[GvilleBills]

A first round talent that they got in the seventh. They really **** the bed there...

[X-Era]

Those stupid bastards just keep on winning.

Why can't they show the class of the Bills?
You were at the top of my list for giving the token answer. Lol.

I don't care.

Put a HOF QB and HOF HC on any team and you have a playoff team.

Not the point.

[X-Era]

A first round talent that they got in the seventh. They really **** the bed there...I agree. They did. It won't help them much when he's suspended or in jail instead of on the field. Cough-Hernandez-cough.

[X-Era]

Fans can service them all you want but Brady and Belichump are why they win. They are a sham of an organization IMO.

And for all the hype, they haven't gone to a SB in a decade.

I digress. Their drafts are pretty bad for many years and their decisions to draft guys with character problems have bit them. It raises real questions on how deserving of credit they are as a front office.

[GvilleBills]

I agree. They did. It won't help them much when he's suspended or in jail instead of on the field. Cough-Hernandez-cough.
If he's on the field at all as a 7th the Patsies are ahead. If you get a starter for 12 games ( nickel corner is basically a starter in today's game) out of a 7th, then jackpot.

Risk/reward = Pats win

I feel dirty saying it, but that doesn't make it any less true.

[GvilleBills]

Hernandez was another 1st round talent that they stole for a fourth. And got very productive years from.

Bottom line is your premise is true. They've whiffed with most of the accumulated picks. The myth of NE's draft success has long been exposed.
But your examples so far aren't helping your case.

[GvilleBills]

Fans can service them all you want but Brady and Belichump are why they win. They are a sham of an organization IMO.

And for all the hype, they haven't gone to a SB in a decade.

I digress. Their drafts are pretty bad for many years and their decisions to draft guys with character problems have bit them. It raises real questions on how deserving of credit they are as a front office.

You mean they haven't WON the SB in a decade...

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Fans can service them all you want but Brady and Belichump are why they win. They are a sham of an organization IMO.

And for all the hype, they haven't gone to a SB in a decade.

I digress. Their drafts are pretty bad for many years and their decisions to draft guys with character problems have bit them. It raises real questions on how deserving of credit they are as a front office.

You sure about that?

[feldspar]

I remember that Alfonzo Dennard actually assaulted a police officer the week of the draft...I don't know how stupid you would have to be to do that, but the guy was facing possible jail-time if convicted of that anyway. This is why he fell so far in the draft.

I don't think that he can be suspended for something that he did when he wasn't even in the NFL, though. He got a DUI, and that's probably the only thing they can use against him. I don't think players are suspended for just having one DUI, are they? But since this DUI was a violation of probation for punching the cop or whatever, he got a little more jail time than he would have had.

I don't really think you can call this a draft mistake because it comes as no surprise to anybody that Dennard had to do a short jail stint. It was already known that he was in trouble.

[X-Era]

You mean they haven't WON the SB in a decade...I stand corrected I misspoke.

[X-Era]

I remember that Alfonzo Dennard actually assaulted a police officer the week of the draft...I don't know how stupid you would have to be to do that, but the guy was facing possible jail-time if convicted of that anyway. This is why he fell so far in the draft.

I don't think that he can be suspended for something that he did when he wasn't even in the NFL, though. He got a DUI, and that's probably the only thing they can use against him. I don't think players are suspended for just having one DUI, are they? But since this DUI was a violation of probation for punching the cop or whatever, he got a little more jail time than he would have had.

I don't really think you can call this a draft mistake because it comes as no surprise to anybody that Dennard had to do a short jail stint. It was already known that he was in trouble.
Read the article.

He went to jail for DUI since he was on parole already from punching a cop in the face... Classy guy. Good call Pats.

[feldspar]

Read the article.

He went to jail for DUI since he was on parole already from punching a cop in the face... Classy guy. Good call Pats.

LOL, read my post.

And it's probation, not parole.

After he was convicted, he was ALREADY sentenced to 30 days in jail for assaulting the cop alone. He was going to serve that time ANYWAY. Do you understand that? He was already scheduled to go to jail much later.

Then they gave him an additional 30 days for violating PROBATION for the DUI, for a total of 60 days that he was actually sentenced for, serving 35. Simple first-time DUI offenders don't go to jail. This was all about punching the cop, which was known before the draft. The whole point is that Dennard was already in trouble before the draft.

The Patriots took a risk, and it has yet to come back and bite them in any way. They got a got a guy in the 7th round that should have been drafted in the first couple of rounds. Dennard has not missed any time on the field because of any of this, either.

The only thing that Dennard did wrong while in the NFL (that we know of) was get a DUI. I got a DUI too when I was his age, and that didn't make me a terrible person.

[Meathead]

Put a HOF QB and mediocre with any other QB HC on any team and you have a playoff team.


fixed

[SpikedLemonade]

Put a HOF QB and HOF HC on any team and you have a playoff team.


Other than once in 55 years, could we please do that as well?

[feldspar]

But this guy will be in huge trouble if he violates his probation again.

[X-Era]

LOL, read my post.

And it's probation, not parole.

After he was convicted, he was ALREADY sentenced to 30 days in jail for assaulting the cop alone. He was going to serve that time ANYWAY. Do you understand that? He was already scheduled to go to jail much later.

Then they gave him an additional 30 days for violating PROBATION for the DUI, for a total of 60 days that he was actually sentenced for, serving 35. Simple first-time DUI offenders don't go to jail. This was all about punching the cop, which was known before the draft. The whole point is that Dennard was already in trouble before the draft.

The Patriots took a risk, and it has yet to come back and bite them in any way. They got a got a guy in the 7th round that should have been drafted in the first couple of rounds. Dennard has not missed any time on the field because of any of this, either.

The only thing that Dennard did wrong while in the NFL (that we know of) was get a DUI. I got a DUI too when I was his age, and that didn't make me a terrible person.Yes, probation not parole.

But he went to jail fort violating his probation with a DUI, not for the first offense.

[feldspar]

Yes, probation not parole.

But he went to jail fort violating his probation with a DUI, not for the first offense.

Dude, he was sentenced to 30 days in jail for assaulting the cop BEFORE his DUI.

How do you not understand this after I've told you several times? This is not rocket science.

He was sentenced to 30 days in jail to be served months and months later, and in the meantime got his DUI. Getting that DUI violated his probation and got him ADDITIONAL time, which was added onto his ALREADY EXISTING sentence...he was scheduled to go to jail ANYWAY, before the DUI. If he didn't get the DUI, he would have went to jail regardless, unless his lawyer was particularly slick. Clear?

[X-Era]

Dude, he was sentenced to 30 days in jail for assaulting the cop BEFORE his DUI.

How do you not understand this after I've told you several times? This is not rocket science.

He was sentenced to 30 days in jail to be served months and months later, and in the meantime got his DUI. Getting that DUI violated his probation and got him ADDITIONAL time, which was added onto his ALREADY EXISTING sentence...he was scheduled to go to jail ANYWAY, before the DUI. If he didn't get the DUI, he would have went to jail regardless, unless his lawyer was particularly slick. Clear?I understand. I have zero clue why you are arguing here.

My point from the start is that the guy was already in trouble for hitting the cop and then got busted for a DUI as well. The guy was drafted the by Pats who overlooked punching a cop and then went and got the DUI after.

They gambled on Hernandez and lost and this guy now has gone to jail. Will they do what they did with Hernandez and buy back his jerseys? Are they the "class" organization they claim to be? Or are they willing to let guys commit crimes while on their team and go to jail for it and still keep them? As long as they don't commit murder? I mean seriously?

Add in the questionable IR tactics, dodging handshakes post game, the whining about calls... They disgust me.

Have the Bills ever kept a guy who, while on their team, was sentenced to jail time?

[feldspar]

I understand. I have zero clue why you are arguing here.

My point from the start is that the guy was already in trouble for hitting the cop and then got busted for a DUI as well. The guy was drafted the by Pats who overlooked punching a cop and then went and got the DUI after.

They gambled on Hernandez and lost and this guy now has gone to jail. Will they do what they did with Hernandez and buy back his jerseys? Are they the "class" organization they claim to be? Or are they willing to let guys commit crimes while on their team and go to jail for it and still keep them? As long as they don't commit murder? I mean seriously?

Add in the questionable IR tactics, dodging handshakes post game, the whining about calls... They disgust me.

Have the Bills ever kept a guy who, while on their team, was sentenced to jail time?

There is no argument. There is only me being right. :D:

You said that he went to jail because of his DUI, and that's just not the case. So I'm just trying to educate you, son. If you want to talk about the so-called "Patriot Way," whatever that means, then that's another subject that I'm bound to agree with you about. But somebody getting a DUI is not going to make me turn around and point fingers. That's the only trouble he got in after being drafted.

Truth be told, there have been several times in my life where I wanted to punch a cop, but I'm just not that stupid...that little "indiscretion" cost him millions in all likelihood, doing it the week heading into the draft.

Personally, I don't really fault the Patriots for taking this risk in the 7th round. They are douchebags for other reasons, but what they did this time makes a certain amount of sense to me.

[swiper]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/04/05/patriots-alfonzo-dennard-released-after-35-days-in-jail/

There's along list of Pats draft mistakes at this point. I've clamored on it for years about how all the pick stockpiling has been mostly a waste... Just more darts but still no accuracy.

But between Hernandez and now this... I find it funny to hear anyone talk about the Pats as a classy organization. Kraft is a great person and a classy owner. But the organization has made many questionable moves for years.

Its a well-known fact that the Patriots aren't great drafters over the years. I don't know who calls them classy, but they are a WINNING organization. And that's the difference.

[feldspar]

Its a well-known fact that the Patriots aren't great drafters over the years. I don't know who calls them classy, but they are a WINNING organization. And that's the difference.

The difference is having a first-ballot Hall of Fame quarterback, and then a first-ballot Hall of Fame coach. The other pieces of the puzzle are interchangeable to large degree. The fact that they are perennial contenders has allowed them certain luxuries such as players willing to take hometown discounts on their contracts, and having players WANT to go there for a greater chance to win, even if means less money.

This will all come to an end pretty soon when Brady retires...maybe in a few years or whatever. Things will be a whole lot different then. It's funny to see the Patriots bringing in a lot of the top quarterbacks in this year's draft, even though they haven't a snowball's chance in hell of drafting any of them where they are picking.

[GingerP]

How is that a bad draft pick? Seems like a real good one to me. For a 7th round pick they got a starting CB. He has done his time and won't miss any off-season work. Seems like a pretty good deal to me.

I mean, were Kiko Alonso or Duke Williams bad picks because they were arrested in college? Alonso was arrested and suspended from his college team twice. Williams was arrested 3 times and suspended 3 times.

Evan Rodriguez had 2 DUI arrests before joining the Bills. They just traded for Mike Williams, who has had a litany of issues dating back to college, where he was suspended for a year before ultimately getting kicked off the team.

Sammy Watkins was arrested for possession of drugs, are you going to upset if the Bills draft him?

This is a joke. Every team in the NFL has players that have had off-field issues. I don't think any team is made up of choir boys.

[DynaPaul]

They haven't drafted worth crap since Pioli left and haven't won as much since Spygate. End of story.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

At the same time guys, even though they didn't make the playoffs, they did go 11 and 5 with matt f@@@ing Cassel as their quarterback

[TigerJ]

I read the article, and the officer he punched was plainclothes, not in a uniform. No excuse, but not quite as stupid as munching a guy with a uniform. I had a high school friend I later lost track of. He had problems with mental illness, and did punch a uniformed police officer. Happened to strike the guy in the temple, and he died. Pretty stupid even if he was a little whacked.

[sudzy]

Who cares about their draft misses? 11 division titles in 13 years. Bottom line is that the Pats a one of the best managed NFL teams.

[X-Era]

Who cares about their draft misses? 11 division titles in 13 years. Bottom line is that the Pats a one of the best managed NFL teams.
Evidence please?

They drafted a HOF QB and signed a HOF HC. Outside of those moves where is the "management" that has made them so great?

Field management? I'd agree. But that's not the front office or drafting.

[sudzy]

Evidence please?

They drafted a HOF QB and signed a HOF HC. Outside of those moves where is the "management" that has made them so great?

Field management? I'd agree. But that's not the front office or drafting.

11-5 without their hall of fame QB in 2008. And Belichick count as part of the management. Bring in Miami ST ace Wes Walker and turning him into one of the best slot receivers in the NFL. Winning with cast off RBs like Smith, Dillion and Blount. 32 pro bowl appearances in the last 5 years. I don't know what your looking for? OK they suck. And dismissing 11 out of 13 division championships as lucking into a good QB is crazy.

[sudzy]

And don't they get points for giving Belichick a 2nd chance and finding Brady? I mean, the Colts finishing last the years that Manning and Luck are coming out is luck. Finding a pro bowl QB in the late rounds might take a little skill. or were they throwing darts at the draft board. I hate the Patriots, but, criticizing their management when our team has one of the biggest glass house on the block, sounds like sour grapes.

[better days]

11-5 without their hall of fame QB in 2008. And Belichick count as part of the management. Bring in Miami ST ace Wes Walker and turning him into one of the best slot receivers in the NFL. Winning with cast off RBs like Smith, Dillion and Blount. 32 pro bowl appearances in the last 5 years. I don't know what your looking for? OK they suck. And dismissing 11 out of 13 division championships as lucking into a good QB is crazy.

He didn't say it was the QB alone, he said they lucked into a QB & HC.

The two most important people on a football team.

[X-Era]

11-5 without their hall of fame QB in 2008. And Belichick count as part of the management. Bring in Miami ST ace Wes Walker and turning him into one of the best slot receivers in the NFL. Winning with cast off RBs like Smith, Dillion and Blount. 32 pro bowl appearances in the last 5 years. I don't know what your looking for? OK they suck. And dismissing 11 out of 13 division championships as lucking into a good QB is crazy.They brought in Welker made him into something great and then let him leave and replaced his with a lesser player at the same price. Wilfork, maybe their 2nd best player on the team, is probably headed out the door. Belicheck isn't really the front office and you know that.

The 08 team was much deeper and better overall than any year after that. They have slowly watered down their talent overall. They've let good players leave, screwed up in the draft, wasted picks on players that end up suspended or in jail, and continue to sign older vets who don't do anything. Yes, Blount was a great pickup... So great that yet again they are letting him leave even though he'd probably re-sign cheap.

Brady and Belichump on the field are why they win. Take that away and you have a sub .500 team IMO and that shows their management is suspect.

[GvilleBills]

Evidence please?

They drafted a HOF QB and signed a HOF HC. Outside of those moves where is the "management" that has made them so great?

Field management? I'd agree. But that's not the front office or drafting.

I think you are moving the goalposts a bit. This thread has spiraled a bit, as threads often do. Half the time, thread titles need to be changed. ;)
The thread was about Dennard being another draft mistake. I pointed out that getting that kind of talent for a 7th is a win, far from a mistake.

[X-Era]

And don't they get points for giving Belichick a 2nd chance and finding Brady? I mean, the Colts finishing last the years that Manning and Luck are coming out is luck. Finding a pro bowl QB in the late rounds might take a little skill. or were they throwing darts at the draft board. I hate the Patriots, but, criticizing their management when our team has one of the biggest glass house on the block, sounds like sour grapes.Giving him a 2nd chance? They pilfered him from the Jets who had his rights after he quit on them.

[GvilleBills]

Wilfork just restructured, he's not going anywhere. They may have lucked into Brady, but didn't they go after Belichek aggressively? Iirc, they had to give up in-division compensation. They targeted their guy, and did what it took to land him. Doesn't seem lucky to me.

I feel dirty having this conversation, and frankly I'm starting to not like you for putting me in this position. ;)

[X-Era]

I think you are moving the goalposts a bit. This thread has spiraled a bit, as threads often do. Half the time, thread titles need to be changed. ;)
The thread was about Dennard being another draft mistake. I pointed out that getting that kind of talent for a 7th is a win, far from a mistake.For a 7th rounder, if he misses 4 games, half the year, or never plays again due to being in jail or in trouble you're right it's a 7th, who cares.

But the flip side is the Pats know his story and knew Hernandez's story before they spend the pick. That puts the loss of a player you drafted on the front office. That teams stockpiles picks and could have drafted a CB much earlier who doesn't have the legal problems if they needed one. It's a choice they make and it's a questionable one.

[X-Era]

Wilfork just restructured, he's not going anywhere. They may have lucked into Brady, but didn't they go after Belichek aggressively? Iirc, they had to give up in-division compensation. They targeted their guy, and did what it took to land him. Doesn't seem lucky to me.

I feel dirty having this conversation, and frankly I'm starting to not like you for putting me in this position. ;)They targeted him and paid dearly for him and it paid off. My point was it wasn't like they found some diamond in the rough for nothing like with Brady. And they didn't give a wash-up a 2nd chance either. Belicheck quit on the Jets. Let's not forget to add that to the character of who he is. Can he win? Yep, he's a HOF'er. But he's also got some questionable character. Add in the CBS and Manning snubs and the cheating and he's far from a class act.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5OFlPcEzbU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7O8blx9dcQ

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000129040/article/bill-belichick-ripped-by-shannon-sharpe-for-cbs-snub

Win at all cost even if it means collecting DB's? OK, I know some Bills fans feel that way. I'm not one of them. I want no chinks in the armor, no asterisk when we win our SB.

[X-Era]

The thread has morphed so a title change is in order.

[GvilleBills]

For a 7th rounder, if he misses 4 games, half the year, or never plays again due to being in jail or in trouble you're right it's a 7th, who cares.

But the flip side is the Pats know his story and knew Hernandez's story before they spend the pick. That puts the loss of a player you drafted on the front office. That teams stockpiles picks and could have drafted a CB much earlier who doesn't have the legal problems if they needed one. It's a choice they make and it's a questionable one.

Unless the dude goes on a shooting spree, the ROI makes it worth it.

[GvilleBills]

They targeted him and paid dearly for him and it paid off. My point was it wasn't like they found some diamond in the rough for nothing like with Brady. And they didn't give a wash-up a 2nd chance either. Belicheck quit on the Jets. Let's not forget to add that to the character of who he is. Can he win? Yep, he's a HOF'er. But he's also got some questionable character. Add in the CBS and Manning snubs and the cheating and he's far from a class act.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5OFlPcEzbU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7O8blx9dcQ

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000129040/article/bill-belichick-ripped-by-shannon-sharpe-for-cbs-snub

Win at all cost even if it means collecting DB's? OK, I know some Bills fans feel that way. I'm not one of them. I want no chinks in the armor, no asterisk when we win our SB.

BB is a class A home wrecking douche bag, no argument. They value rings over souls, no argument.

Their asterisk is all SpyGate related, in no way influenced by douchbaggery.
WHEN Buffalo wins, there will be no asterisk simply because we didn't field a team of choirboys.

[GvilleBills]

The thread has morphed so a title change is in order.

At some point, we need to discuss the parameters of a "good front office".
Is it sustained winning, but only if you do it with a spotless moral standing and without the best QB/HC combo in the league?

[IlluminatusUIUC]

At some point, we need to discuss the parameters of a "good front office".
Is it sustained winning, but only if you do it with a spotless moral standing and without the best QB/HC combo in the league?

Yeah these standards X-Era is holding up are ridiculous. How many teams in this league that would be a .500 team if you abruptly took away their coach and franchise quarterback? San Francisco and Seattle I'm sure would be suggested. Well look at the rap sheets on the guys they have.

[X-Era]

At some point, we need to discuss the parameters of a "good front office".
Is it sustained winning, but only if you do it with a spotless moral standing and without the best QB/HC combo in the league?Again, to me it's a team that perpetually wins with less than a HOF QB and HOF HC.

The 49er's and Seahawks have done more with less recently. And neither team drafted a guy that's behind bars for murder. I don't know the stories on all the players but have any of their guys from last year gone to jail since being in the NFL?

[sudzy]

He didn't say it was the QB alone, he said they lucked into a QB & HC.

The two most important people on a football team.

Did they throw a dart at a board and come away with those 2? They did their homework and hired on those two, and ended up with As, so no luck involved. Just like the Bills do their homework on their coaches and QBs keep coming away with Cs and Ds. Those bastards.

[X-Era]

Did they throw a dart at a board and come away with those 2? They did their homework and hired on those two, and ended up with As, so no luck involved. Just like the Bills do their homework on their coaches and QBs keep coming away with Cs and Ds. Those bastards.Who is they? Pioli? He hasn't been with the team since 08 and both those moves are from over 13 years ago. So the Pats have a great Front Office led by a guy who's long gone because they made two great moves over 13 years ago?

Using that metric I guess we do too with Polian and our SB years.

[GvilleBills]

Again, to me it's a team that perpetually wins with less than a HOF QB and HOF HC.

The 49er's and Seahawks have done more with less recently. And neither team drafted a guy that's behind bars for murder. I don't know the stories on all the players but have any of their guys from last year gone to jail since being in the NFL?

We have reached the root of our discourse, my friend. We will never agree on those parameters.

[sudzy]

Brady had an off year, 87.3 QB rating. Only the 17th best in the NFL and his worse year (other then 2008 when he was hurt) since 2003. And still 12 wins. Spin your jealousy, anyway you want they are still a good team.

[X-Era]

Brady had an off year, 87.3 QB rating. Only the 17th best in the NFL and his worse year (other then 2008 when he was hurt) since 2003. And still 12 wins. Spin your jealousy, anyway you want they are still a good team.
I'm looking for the data to support your argument. I don't see it. You give me wins and losses and I offer you a HOF QB and HC. But you feel they have a great front office even when none of the current front office (outside of Kraft) was involved when they obtained Brady and Belicheck.

A HOF HC can get 12 wins from a marginal team with a HOF QB. If the Pats have a great front office we should be talking about how great the team is outside of Brady and Belichump. The long list of draft hits, great signings, keeping their guys, etc... Where's that argument?

What exactly are we giving the current front office credit for here?

[sudzy]

Who is they? Pioli? He hasn't been with the team since 08 and both those moves are from over 13 years ago. So the Pats have a great Front Office led by a guy who's long gone because they made two great moves over 13 years ago?

Using that metric I guess we do too with Polian and our SB years.


Robert Kraft. It all starts with the owner.

[sudzy]

I'm looking for the data to support your argument. I don't see it. You give me wins and losses and I offer you a HOF QB and HC. But you feel they have a great front office even when none of the current front office (outside of Kraft) was involved when they obtained Brady and Belicheck.

A HOF HC can get 12 wins from a marginal team with a HOF QB. If the Pats have a great front office we should be talking about how great the team is outside of Brady and Belichump. Where's that argument?

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/quarterbackRating

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00.htm

[X-Era]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/quarterbackRating

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00.htmAlright man. I'm trying to discuss their front office and you keep focusing on a player that has zero to do with the current front office.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Again, to me it's a team that perpetually wins with less than a HOF QB and HOF HC.

I love that having a hall of fame coach and a hall of fame QB somehow invalidates their success.


The 49er's and Seahawks have done more with less recently. And neither team drafted a guy that's behind bars for murder. I don't know the stories on all the players but have any of their guys from last year gone to jail since being in the NFL?

First, the 49ers have not done more than the Patriots recently. In the last three years, since the 49ers became respectable, they have three CCG trips and a Super Bowl loss. Over the same time frame the Patriots have... three CCG trips and a Super Bowl loss.

And you probably should research the teams you are holding up as an example before you hold them up. Aldon Smith and Marshawn Lynch done some time or will shortly. Don't forget the sheer number of PED suspensions the Seahawks have had, or the fact that Carroll ran a dirty program at USC and then skated out the door before the hammer fell, or that Harbaugh might be the second most insufferable douchebag behind Belichick himself.

[GvilleBills]

I love that having a hall of fame coach and a hall of fame QB somehow invalidates their success.



First, the 49ers have not done more than the Patriots recently. In the last three years, since the 49ers became respectable, they have three CCG trips and a Super Bowl loss. Over the same time frame the Patriots have... three CCG trips and a Super Bowl loss.

And you probably should research the teams you are holding up as an example before you hold them up. Aldon Smith and Marshawn Lynch done some time or will shortly. Don't forget the sheer number of PED suspensions the Seahawks have had, or the fact that Carroll ran a dirty program at USC and then skated out the door before the hammer fell, or that Harbaugh might be the second most insufferable douchebag behind Belichick himself.

Word.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

A HOF HC can get 12 wins from a marginal team with a HOF QB. If the Pats have a great front office we should be talking about how great the team is outside of Brady and Belichump. The long list of draft hits, great signings, keeping their guys, etc... Where's that argument?

What exactly are we giving the current front office credit for here?

How about a Top 10 scoring defense for 10 of the last 13 years? How about having a top 10 rushing offense in both Y/C and TDs? The Pats aren't elite at everything but they aren't terrible at anything either.

[chris66]

I'm looking for the data to support your argument. I don't see it. You give me wins and losses and I offer you a HOF QB and HC. But you feel they have a great front office even when none of the current front office (outside of Kraft) was involved when they obtained Brady and Belicheck.

A HOF HC can get 12 wins from a marginal team with a HOF QB. If the Pats have a great front office we should be talking about how great the team is outside of Brady and Belichump. The long list of draft hits, great signings, keeping their guys, etc... Where's that argument?

What exactly are we giving the current front office credit for here?

Wow! Really? You cant be serious! BB drafted Brady. Pioli's role is the same as Nick Casserio's. VP of player personnel. All roads end with BB he has had the final say since he has been there.

The final argument is winning. They have not had a losing season since 2000. 11 division titles, 8 afc championship appearances. 5 super bowls, 3 they won.

[DynaPaul]

At the same time guys, even though they didn't make the playoffs, they did go 11 and 5 with matt f@@@ing Cassel as their quarterback

Pre-Spygate.

[X-Era]

I love that having a hall of fame coach and a hall of fame QB somehow invalidates their success.Not sure who's saying that. Not me. Their success has little to do with their current Front Office.


And you probably should research the teams you are holding up as an example before you hold them up. Aldon Smith and Marshawn Lynch done some time or will shortly. Don't forget the sheer number of PED suspensions the Seahawks have had, or the fact that Carroll ran a dirty program at USC and then skated out the door before the hammer fell, or that Harbaugh might be the second most insufferable douchebag behind Belichick himself.And so the answer is none? No player for either team has done jail time yet? And by jail time I mean as a sentence not like jail as part of an arrest. Reducing a DUI charge with no jail time is not the same as murder or even violating probation IMO.

And then you throw Carroll and Harbaugh under the bus. I'm fine with that. Again, not the front office. Both those teams are better teams than the Pats IMO if you ignore the HC and QB. Both FO's are doing a much better job than the Pats FO in my estimation.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Pre-Spygate.

Incorrect

[X-Era]

Wow! Really? You cant be serious! BB drafted Brady. Pioli's role is the same as Nick Casserio's. VP of player personnel. All roads end with BB he has had the final say since he has been there.

The final argument is winning. They have not had a losing season since 2000. 11 division titles, 8 afc championship appearances. 5 super bowls, 3 they won.LOL.

You guys are killing me.

Over and over I hear about Belicheck (not brought in by the current FO) and Brady (also not brought in by the current FO).

I'd love to see a discussion that stays on topic. You all want to make my argument for me.

Brady and Belicheck are the reason they have sustained success. NOT the Front Office. Everything else the FO has done is mediocre at best or worse.

[chris66]

LOL.

You guys are killing me.

Over and over I hear about Belicheck (not brought in by the current FO) and Brady (also not brought in by the current FO).

I'd love to see a discussion that stays on topic. You all want to make my argument for me.

Brady and Belicheck are the reason they have sustained success. NOT the Front Office. Everything else the FO has done is mediocre at best or worse.
What are you talking about. BB is the current front office. He has been president of football operations, gm and coach since 2000
I think you're a bit confused on the Pats hierarchy. Its real simple Kraft, BB, and everyone else.

[X-Era]

What are you talking about. BB is the current front office. He has been president of football operations, gm and coach since 2000
I think you're a bit confused on the Pats hierarchy. Its real simple Kraft, BB, and everyone else.OK. Then let's evaluate BB as the front office and set aside BB as the HC. Still a FO that makes questionable decisions and is mediocre at best.

[chris66]

OK. Then let's evaluate BB as the front office and set aside BB as the HC. Still a FO that makes questionable decisions and is mediocre at best.

you cant separate them. BB the GM acquires players for BB the hc's system

[IlluminatusUIUC]

What exactly are you looking for X-Era? Team success? Pro bowlers? Define your terms because I'm not seeing any way you can call the Pats mediocre without coming off a like a butthurt homer.

[X-Era]

What exactly are you looking for X-Era? Team success? Pro bowlers? Define your terms because I'm not seeing any way you can call the Pats mediocre without coming off a like a butthurt homer.
Their front office. Throw BB in it from the personnel side if you like. Their front office is not very good at drafting and they make head scratching decisions in free agency.

[swiper]

The difference is having a first-ballot Hall of Fame quarterback, and then a first-ballot Hall of Fame coach. The other pieces of the puzzle are interchangeable to large degree. The fact that they are perennial contenders has allowed them certain luxuries such as players willing to take hometown discounts on their contracts, and having players WANT to go there for a greater chance to win, even if means less money.

This will all come to an end pretty soon when Brady retires...maybe in a few years or whatever. Things will be a whole lot different then. It's funny to see the Patriots bringing in a lot of the top quarterbacks in this year's draft, even though they haven't a snowball's chance in hell of drafting any of them where they are picking.

Its not "funny." It's a good team that actually recognizes the importance of the QB. The Bills never seem to do that right.

[chris66]

Their front office. Throw BB in it from the personnel side if you like. Their front office is not very good at drafting and they make head scratching decisions in free agency.

Drafted: Brady, Seymour, Light, Branch, Givens, Warren, Samuel, Koppen, Wilfork, Watson, Mankins, Gostkowski, Mayo, Vollmer, Edelman, McCourty, Gronk , Spikes, Solder, Vereen, Ridley, Cannon, Jones, Hightower, Dennard, Collins and Ryan.

Free agent pick ups: Pfiefer, Hamilton, Compton, Andruzzi, Patten, Vrabel, Antonio Smith, Harrison, Dillon, ted Washington, Tyrone Poole. all were instrumental in their SB runs

[sudzy]

Drafted: Brady, Seymour, Light, Branch, Givens, Warren, Samuel, Koppen, Wilfork, Watson, Mankins, Gostkowski, Mayo, Vollmer, Edelman, McCourty, Gronk , Spikes, Solder, Vereen, Ridley, Cannon, Jones, Hightower, Dennard, Collins and Ryan.

Free agent pick ups: Pfiefer, Hamilton, Compton, Andruzzi, Patten, Vrabel, Antonio Smith, Harrison, Dillon, ted Washington, Tyrone Poole. all were instrumental in their SB runs


You could throw out a hundred names and X-era would come back, well they cut Dennard and Dowling. I guess when you have a talented team every rookie doesn't make the team?

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Their front office. Throw BB in it from the personnel side if you like. Their front office is not very good at drafting and they make head scratching decisions in free agency.

What is your baseline for being "very good" at drafting? In the last few drafts on defense, they have picked up Chandler Jones, Hightower, Mayo, Dennard, and the guy you spent all offseason slobbering over, Brandon Spikes. And they've had top 10 defenses nearly every season. I get that you don't think they win with class, and I agree. But it's hilarious to say that and then get excited when we pick up Spikes in free agency.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>“<a href="https://twitter.com/nhgator13">@nhgator13</a>: @BrandonSpikes55 Buffalo is the plumber’s butt of America.” I gonna follow u now !!! Lmaoooo dying over here ������������</p>&mdash; BrandonSpikes51 (@BrandonSpikes51) <a href="https://twitter.com/BrandonSpikes51/statuses/252151393857724416">September 29, 2012</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

^^^ That happened. And then look at the date - the day before they curbstomped us 52-28 on our own field.

[sudzy]

A question for X-era that I don't think has been asked yet. Do you believe that the Bills front office is better then the Pats?

[DesertFox24]

Bill Belichek is a great coach, but if you look at his personal decisions when he was coach of the browns and the pats he has had more bust than hits.

Lets be honest is he still coach of the pats if they dont luck out and draft Tom Brady in the 6th round, I honestly cannot answer that question.

They get a lot of credit because they move around a lot and get picks for the next years draft a lot but if you look at the players we have drafted better on a round by round basis.

Give us a HOF and top 3 QB of all time and we would still have Gregg Williams as coach and TD as GM.

This is a fact folks.

[Victor7]

They have Brady

That's it. Sure they have hit on some picks here and there. Who hasn't ?? Even our ****ty team hits them as well. They main difference is they lucked out with Brady and him and Belichik are great together.

[better days]

Drafted: Brady, Seymour, Light, Branch, Givens, Warren, Samuel, Koppen, Wilfork, Watson, Mankins, Gostkowski, Mayo, Vollmer, Edelman, McCourty, Gronk , Spikes, Solder, Vereen, Ridley, Cannon, Jones, Hightower, Dennard, Collins and Ryan.

Free agent pick ups: Pfiefer, Hamilton, Compton, Andruzzi, Patten, Vrabel, Antonio Smith, Harrison, Dillon, ted Washington, Tyrone Poole. all were instrumental in their SB runs

Pioli was GM at that time. How many really good picks have they had since they left? I would say a few, but not enough to win a Championship.

Brady & Belichick are the only reasons the Pats* continue to win.

[EDS]

I'm looking for the data to support your argument. I don't see it. You give me wins and losses and I offer you a HOF QB and HC. But you feel they have a great front office even when none of the current front office (outside of Kraft) was involved when they obtained Brady and Belicheck.

A HOF HC can get 12 wins from a marginal team with a HOF QB. If the Pats have a great front office we should be talking about how great the team is outside of Brady and Belichump. The long list of draft hits, great signings, keeping their guys, etc... Where's that argument?

What exactly are we giving the current front office credit for here?

Are you serious? In the past 5 years the Pats - despite generally drafting in the bottom half of the first round and being a veteran winning team - have drafted a truly great, albeit injury prone, TE (Gronk), both starting tackles (Solder, Vollmer) and their top back-up tackle (Cannon), a 1000 yard rusher (Ridley), a 1000 yard receiver (Edelman), a guy that record over 10 sacks last season (Jones), a couple starting linebackers (Hightower, Spikes), a pro bowl safety (McCourty), starting corner (Dennard).

So all of their first round picks in the past 5 drafts are starters, they have hit on late round picks (both Edelman and Dennard were 7th rounders) and in between. They drafted starters at critical positions (left tackle, pass rusher, corner, etc.).

But they suck otherwise. The Bills on the other hand have been the picture of success.

[trapezeus]

the more details you look at the pats, the more its obvious that they are doing something no other team is doing. and that's not a compliment. they are skirting the system. in any other venture, people with very outsized gains tend to be cheating or rigging a system in a questionable manner. i always come back to madoff. on the surface, he was a smart guy. but 10-20 years of unquestionable results in multiple markets, a few people said, "this isn't right".

others said, that he was simply a genius. in the end, he was a fraud.

Look at the michael lewis book on high frequency trading. some of those firms have never had a down day. is that because they are playing on the same field as everyone else, or has done something no one else is doing.

to me belichik's last year was more than enough proof that they continue to skirt the system. that team was not supposed to be that good. and they continued to win at home took no prisoners as their defense fell apart and their receiving corp lost herendez, gronk and the WR came in and out. they just kept winning. i can't think of another coach who has the full gm duties where that actually worked out. everywhere else, it's been too much work for other very good coaches. but a 3-13 browns bust is just a genius. this is what just makes sense to people?

and they do blow drafts, and they do keep picking in the later parts of the draft or trading out to get more picks, and they are just so good that it can't be replicated by another single mind? if he's that bright, why keep him in football? get him in a labratory and start solving some sicknesses. The whole pats organization is a joke and in time it will come out.

[GingerP]

Pioli was GM at that time. How many really good picks have they had since they left? I would say a few, but not enough to win a Championship.

Brady & Belichick are the only reasons the Pats* continue to win.

If you look at it, they drafted terrible in the last few years Pioli was there. They actually have done a better job since then, despite not having great draft position.

In the end, the draft is only one component. The Pats have managed to acquire players in different ways, but the end result is they stay competitive.

[better days]

If you look at it, they drafted terrible in the last few years Pioli was there. They actually have done a better job since then, despite not having great draft position.

In the end, the draft is only one component. The Pats have managed to acquire players in different ways, but the end result is they stay competitive.

They stay competitive because of Belichick & Brady.

After those two go, they will fall back to the pack.

[trapezeus]

They stay competitive because of Belichick & Brady.

After those two go, they will fall back to the pack.

they won't. the team faced no fall off when brady went down. maybe if they lose belichick. but the NFL loves giving that fickle fan base a reason to stay since its a huge market that they previously never tapped into.

[Bill Cody]

what a dumb thread. The coach and the QB are the two most crucial things on a football team. Show me the teams that have 13 years like NE WITHOUT a great coach and a great QB, it's never happened. This is like "if you took out the great engine and the super tires your race car would be nothing special"

[better days]

they won't. the team faced no fall off when brady went down. maybe if they lose belichick. but the NFL loves giving that fickle fan base a reason to stay since its a huge market that they previously never tapped into.

The Pats* were a MUCH better team over all the year Brady went down than they are today.

I agree with you about the NFL wanting to see the Pats* stay competitive.

[feldspar]

they won't. the team faced no fall off when brady went down. maybe if they lose belichick. but the NFL loves giving that fickle fan base a reason to stay since its a huge market that they previously never tapped into.

The team faced a HUGE fall-off when Brady went down. The 2007 team was coming directly off Spygate, and that team was on a mission...I'm telling you that they were ON A MISSION. As a gambler, I'd NEVER seen a professional football team giving up 21-point spreads routinely...and actually covering them. The 2007 Patriots were one play away of going 19-0.

If you want to look at the win/loss column in a vacuum as the only form of evaluation, the 2007 Patriots won SEVEN more games than the ensuing year when Matt Cassel took over.

Belijerk is not some sort of wizard people make him out to be.

[Mike]

Evidence please?

They drafted a HOF QB and signed a HOF HC. Outside of those moves where is the "management" that has made them so great?

Field management? I'd agree. But that's not the front office or drafting.

The evidence is in the 'pudding'

They got Randy Moss for a 4th rounder, Wes Welker in a trade before he hit his prime, and now Revis all the while Bills fans were laughing at the moves. Drafted, Chandler Jones, Seymore, Wilfork, Mayo, Hightower, & Brady are all very good pics. You have to note that they have also been picking later in each round that the Bills.

Here is the Bottom Line for the Pats
*** They are an example of how hard it is to win in the NFL even with an HOF QB and HOF Coach ***
- The Pats' drafts have been marginal at best, sometimes getting great talent and other times completely failing. As a result of some of these failures -eg drafting a WR- they have covered this shortcoming via FA and getting guys like Moss, Welker,etc.
- In spite of this, they have still not been able to win a SB in some times.

AND its not JUST about HOF QB & Coach
see the other HOF QBs & Coaches of the 200's
- Brees & Payton: 1SB
- Manning & Dungy: 1 SB
- Rogers & McCarthy: 1 SB
---------------------------------------
Those 3 Great QBs & Coaches have as many SBs as Brady! Even with a Great QB and Great Coach it is still Very Hard to win SB!!!! (IF you don't believe me just as those 1990's Bills teams)

Who win SBs Most Often?
Teams that have all 3 components: Coaching, QB, and great surrounding cast (good defense, good offense)
Seahawks, Ravens, Giants, Steelers, all personify this. These teams have won 7 of the past 15 SBs!
Further, when the Saints, Pats, and Packers won the SB they also had complete teams which puts the number of 13/15 with the only two team missing one of these pieces being the Bucs & Ravens (2000)!

Moral of the Story
It takes more than a HOF QB & HOF Coach to win SBs in the NFL
It takes complete teams
which are very difficult to build even if you have a Brees, Rogers, Manning, or even Brady.

[Mike]

the more details you look at the pats, the more its obvious that they are doing something no other team is doing. and that's not a compliment. they are skirting the system. in any other venture, people with very outsized gains tend to be cheating or rigging a system in a questionable manner. i always come back to madoff. on the surface, he was a smart guy. but 10-20 years of unquestionable results in multiple markets, a few people said, "this isn't right".

others said, that he was simply a genius. in the end, he was a fraud.

Look at the michael lewis book on high frequency trading. some of those firms have never had a down day. is that because they are playing on the same field as everyone else, or has done something no one else is doing.

to me belichik's last year was more than enough proof that they continue to skirt the system. that team was not supposed to be that good. and they continued to win at home took no prisoners as their defense fell apart and their receiving corp lost herendez, gronk and the WR came in and out. they just kept winning. i can't think of another coach who has the full gm duties where that actually worked out. everywhere else, it's been too much work for other very good coaches. but a 3-13 browns bust is just a genius. this is what just makes sense to people?

and they do blow drafts, and they do keep picking in the later parts of the draft or trading out to get more picks, and they are just so good that it can't be replicated by another single mind? if he's that bright, why keep him in football? get him in a labratory and start solving some sicknesses. The whole pats organization is a joke and in time it will come out.

Actually, BB was a major contributing factor to the Ravens winning the SB in 2001
The year that the Browns announced their move, the Browns were considered a SB contender!
The move totally screwed that team up and lead to his firing. Even then BB was a great coach and he took the majority of his staff with him when he got hired at NE. Then he turned a very poor 5-11 Pats team into a Dynasty.

I remember those days, internally laughing at the Pats. Throughout the late 80's & early 90's they were like a ******er red headed step child, you couldn't contain from laughing while knowing it was wrong.

[Mike]

They stay competitive because of Belichick & Brady.

After those two go, they will fall back to the pack.

Wow what an insightful statement. Of course they will fall back down to earth. Its like taking Jobs away from Apple, or Jordan from the Bulls or Kelly from the Bills, Marino from the Dols, etc....

The point is that they were SMART enough to HIRE BB and draft Brady.
My problem is that the Bills are a very DUMB organizations
They are extremely Stupid and so it wont matter who the Other Team is
Weather its Brady and Belichick wining SB or Wilson or Rogers, who cares,,,,, it just wont be the Bills.

And even if they get the next Brady and Belichick they still wont be smart enough to build a team around them so we will be like McNab and the Eagles or Frank Tarkenton and the Vikes or dare I say it, Jim Kelly and the Bills - well probably not that good.

Point is, that the Chances the BILLS are Great Enough to WIN a SB is a very very low and a long time away -if at all.
and in the end, this is what I care about. I could care less about what some other team is doing, because even if the Pats are not winning so what? Neither are the Bills.

[Mike]

what a dumb thread. The coach and the QB are the two most crucial things on a football team. Show me the teams that have 13 years like NE WITHOUT a great coach and a great QB, it's never happened. This is like "if you took out the great engine and the super tires your race car would be nothing special"

Shows you how much some our fellow posters know about football.

Its like saying, 'if Donald Trump did not have all that money he would not be rich'. No ****ttt......

[chris66]

Pioli was GM at that time. How many really good picks have they had since they left? I would say a few, but not enough to win a Championship.

Brady & Belichick are the only reasons the Pats* continue to win.
Pioli was never gm.he was vp of player personnel. BB is president of player personnel

[X-Era]

The evidence is in the 'pudding'

They got Randy Moss for a 4th rounder, Wes Welker in a trade before he hit his prime, and now Revis all the while Bills fans were laughing at the moves. Drafted, Chandler Jones, Seymore, Wilfork, Mayo, Hightower, & Brady are all very good pics. You have to note that they have also been picking later in each round that the Bills.

Here is the Bottom Line for the Pats
*** They are an example of how hard it is to win in the NFL even with an HOF QB and HOF Coach ***
- The Pats' drafts have been marginal at best, sometimes getting great talent and other times completely failing. As a result of some of these failures -eg drafting a WR- they have covered this shortcoming via FA and getting guys like Moss, Welker,etc.
- In spite of this, they have still not been able to win a SB in some times.

AND its not JUST about HOF QB & Coach
see the other HOF QBs & Coaches of the 200's
- Brees & Payton: 1SB
- Manning & Dungy: 1 SB
- Rogers & McCarthy: 1 SB
---------------------------------------
Those 3 Great QBs & Coaches have as many SBs as Brady! Even with a Great QB and Great Coach it is still Very Hard to win SB!!!! (IF you don't believe me just as those 1990's Bills teams)

Who win SBs Most Often?
Teams that have all 3 components: Coaching, QB, and great surrounding cast (good defense, good offense)
Seahawks, Ravens, Giants, Steelers, all personify this. These teams have won 7 of the past 15 SBs!
Further, when the Saints, Pats, and Packers won the SB they also had complete teams which puts the number of 13/15 with the only two team missing one of these pieces being the Bucs & Ravens (2000)!

Moral of the Story
It takes more than a HOF QB & HOF Coach to win SBs in the NFL
It takes complete teams
which are very difficult to build even if you have a Brees, Rogers, Manning, or even Brady.They got Welker, made him good, then let him leave and paid a lesser player the same money.

Revis is on the decline... a famous Pats move
Seymour they got rid of
Wilfork wanted to leave just a month ago
Mayo and Jones I'll give you
Hightower hasn't proven himself yet

And then we have a glut of draftees that were over-drafted in many cases (IMO), are not on the team anymore, in jail, or never became anything.

I'll add more when I get some time.

[GingerP]

They got Welker, made him good, then let him leave and paid a lesser player the same money.

... and Julian Edelman, who they picked in the 7th round, had 105 catches for over 1,000 yards and 6 TD.


Revis is on the decline... a famous Pats move

All washed up, at the ripe old age of 28. LOL.


Seymour they got rid of

... for a 1st round pick, that they used on Nate Solder, who is their LT for the next 10 years.


Wilfork wanted to leave just a month ago

Then... he re-signed for 3 years.


Mayo and Jones I'll give you

How big of you.


Hightower hasn't proven himself yet

He is as proven as Gilmore or Dareus. He has been a starter for them from day 1.


And then we have a glut of draftees that were over-drafted in many cases (IMO), are not on the team anymore, in jail, or never became anything.

Every team has hits and misses in the draft. NE does a good enough job finding and developing players to win year-after-year. They must be doing something right.

Every year you hear about how NE sucks at drafting or is in decline. Then, they go out and win 12 games. It's like groundhog day.

[Night Train]

Brady and Bellyache are a once in a lifetime combo. They'll be done in a couple years. Then show me how " smart " they are.

It sure isn't all Bob Kraft. His current thinking is London needs a team more than L.A. or other US cities.

[BuffaloRedleg]

Wow what an insightful statement. Of course they will fall back down to earth. Its like taking Jobs away from Apple, or Jordan from the Bulls or Kelly from the Bills, Marino from the Dols, etc....

The point is that they were SMART enough to HIRE BB and draft Brady.
My problem is that the Bills are a very DUMB organizations
They are extremely Stupid and so it wont matter who the Other Team is
Weather its Brady and Belichick wining SB or Wilson or Rogers, who cares,,,,, it just wont be the Bills.

And even if they get the next Brady and Belichick they still wont be smart enough to build a team around them so we will be like McNab and the Eagles or Frank Tarkenton and the Vikes or dare I say it, Jim Kelly and the Bills - well probably not that good.

Point is, that the Chances the BILLS are Great Enough to WIN a SB is a very very low and a long time away -if at all.
and in the end, this is what I care about. I could care less about what some other team is doing, because even if the Pats are not winning so what? Neither are the Bills.


Wow what an insightful statement. Of course they will fall back down to earth. Its like taking Jobs away from Apple, or Jordan from the Bulls or Kelly from the Bills, Marino from the Dols, etc....

The point is that they were SMART enough to HIRE BB and draft Brady.
My problem is that the Bills are a very DUMB organizations
They are extremely Stupid and so it wont matter who the Other Team is
Weather its Brady and Belichick wining SB or Wilson or Rogers, who cares,,,,, it just wont be the Bills.

And even if they get the next Brady and Belichick they still wont be smart enough to build a team around them so we will be like McNab and the Eagles or Frank Tarkenton and the Vikes or dare I say it, Jim Kelly and the Bills - well probably not that good.

Point is, that the Chances the BILLS are Great Enough to WIN a SB is a very very low and a long time away -if at all.
and in the end, this is what I care about. I could care less about what some other team is doing, because even if the Pats are not winning so what? Neither are the Bills.

That is silly. They passed on Brady what 7 times?

I'm all for giving credit where credit is due (and denying credit where none is deserved in the case of the Bills), but come on.

[Novacane]

And don't they get points for giving Belichick a 2nd chance and finding Brady? I mean, the Colts finishing last the years that Manning and Luck are coming out is luck. Finding a pro bowl QB in the late rounds might take a little skill. or were they throwing darts at the draft board. I hate the Patriots, but, criticizing their management when our team has one of the biggest glass house on the block, sounds like sour grapes.



Drafting Brady was pure luck. If they had any idea he would be 1/2 the QB he turned into they wouldn't of waited till the 6th to take him.

[X-Era]

and Julian Edelman, who they picked in the 7th round, had 105 catches for over 1,000 yards and 6 TD.for one year after they let Welker go and Amendola did very little and who they paid as much as Welker. If he's so great they should have never paid Amendola.


All washed up, at the ripe old age of 28. LOL.He'll be 29 by the time the season starts and he's not the player he once was... and they're paying him 12 mill next year. Why not sign someone younger who's on the upswing?


for a 1st round pick, that they used on Nate Solder, who is their LT for the next 10 years.Solder is decent, he's a break out player this year. I hope for them he's a long term stud... He should be, he's a 1st round pick. Seymour was a 5 time pro-bowler.


Then... he re-signed for 3 years.The guy wanted out of NE... Does a great FO let it get to that?


How big of you.Yes it is. Thanks.


He is as proven as Gilmore or Dareus. He has been a starter for them from day 1.No he isn't. Both Dareus and Gilmore have done more than just start. Not saying Hightower is a bad draftee, we don't know yet what he is... So he really shouldn't be in the discussion yet.


Every team has hits and misses in the draft. NE does a good enough job finding and developing players to win year-after-year. They must be doing something right.

Every year you hear about how NE sucks at drafting or is in decline. Then, they go out and win 12 games. It's like groundhog day.No, what it's like is ignoring their weaknesses as an organization because a HOF HC and QB keep them winning. This thread was looking at their FO and only their FO. They have stockpiled picks and should have had twice the number of hits with twice the picks... instead they have had as many hits as teams with half the picks or worse. That is not a sign of a great FO. Sorry. Then add in the list of players they made good and let leave (something Bills fans complain at our FO over), the annual signing of big name players past their prime that don't live up to prior hype and end up leaving soon after, the questionable IR tactics... Yeah, there is a case to be made for a sub-par FO up in NE.

"Well they win so they must be doing something right" Belicheck the HC and Brady the QB are... I agree. If you want to be a Pats homer who ignores criticism of their FO go ahead.

[GingerP]

for one year after they let Welker go and Amendola did very little and who they paid as much as Welker. If he's so great they should have never paid Amendola.

They replaced his production. Edelman replaced Welker's production. Letting Welker go didn't hurt them, they replaced his production.


He'll be 29 by the time the season starts and he's not the player he once was... and they're paying him 12 mill next year. Why not sign someone younger who's on the upswing?

And 29 is old? He started the year slow coming off an ACL, but he was his usual dominant self by year's end. Pro Football Focus rated him 1st or 2nd in all their key metrics. 29 years old is a players prime, for a guy who has been the best CB in the NFL during his tenure. They could sign someone younger, but they wouldn't be as good.


Solder is decent, he's not an stud. Seymour was a 5 time pro-bowler.

Solder is a very good, young OT who will start for them a long time. Weren't you the "sign someone younger" guy a moment ago? They traded a 29-year old guy who was making top money (the top-paid DT in the NFL while in Oakland) and got a young, cheap asset for long-term. They got great value for Seymour.


The guy wanted out of NE... Does a great FO let it get to that?

They got him to sign a 3-year contract that is incentive-based, meaning he only gets paid well if he performs like he used to, generating almost $5M in cap room. How is that bad management? Contrast that with Dallas, who wanted DeMarcus Ware to take a paycut and instead lost the player.


No he isn't. Both Dareus and Gilmore have done more than just start. Not saying Hightower is a bad draftee, we don't know yet what he is... So he really shouldn't be in the discussion yet.

That is pretty much subjective. They drafted a guy much lower than both Gilmore and Dareus, and he has become a starter for them. You call that a bad pick?


No, what it's like is ignoring their weaknesses as an organization because a HOF HC and QB keep them winning. This thread was looking at their FO and only their FO. They have stockpiled picks and should have had twice the number of hits with twice the picks... instead they have had as many hits as teams with half the picks or worse. That is not a sign of a great FO. Sorry. Then add in the list of players they made good and let leave (something Bills fans complain at our FO over), the annual signing of big name players past their prime that don't live up to prior hype and end up leaving soom after, the questionable IR tactics... Yeah, there is a case to be made for a sub-par FO up in NE.

They job is to field a team with a chance to win each year. They have "managed" things well enough to do that, yet you call them a bad front office. Every team has good moves and bad moves, but the good front offices assemble the best teams. They have done that.

[better days]

Pioli was never gm.he was vp of player personnel. BB is president of player personnel

OK, the Pats* have not drafted well since Pioli left the front office of that team.

[X-Era]

They replaced his production. Edelman replaced Welker's production. Letting Welker go didn't hurt them, they replaced his production.
Then they wasted Welkers money on a lesser player in Amendola. They had Edelman already.


And 29 is old? He started the year slow coming off an ACL, but he was his usual dominant self by year's end. Pro Football Focus rated him 1st or 2nd in all their key metrics. 29 years old is a players prime, for a guy who has been the best CB in the NFL during his tenure. They could sign someone younger, but they wouldn't be as good.29 is not his prime man sorry. He's losing speed. They paid 12 million for a guy on the decline. It's a move that's been questioned. And this is a team that let a young up and comer in Talib go to pay top dollar for a 29 year old and moreover more than Talib got. And on the other side they have a criminal who may miss games due to a suspension. The Talib move alone points to flawed thinking.


Solder is a very good, young OT who will start for them a long time. Weren't you the "sign someone younger" guy a moment ago? They traded a 29-year old guy who was making top money (the top-paid DT in the NFL while in Oakland) and got a young, cheap asset for long-term. They got great value for Seymour.They traded away a 5 time pro-bowler with several more quality years in front of him for a draft pick who could have been a flop. They ended up with a very good young LT so they ended up getting a good player. But it was a risk. Setmour was one of their best players when they made that move and the defense was worse because of it. And for what? Yet another draft pick for a team that ought to be scoring left and right with the stockpile of picks they always acquire? They needed the extra pick when they had plenty already? Maybe if the team was better at drafting they could have had a very good LT and Seymour.


They got him to sign a 3-year contract that is incentive-based, meaning he only gets paid well if he performs like he used to, generating almost $5M in cap room. How is that bad management? Contrast that with Dallas, who wanted DeMarcus Ware to take a paycut and instead lost the player.That's a deal that could have been done at any point. Did you have to push the guy who's been one of your stars for many years to the point where he wanted to quit? Spikes, Talib, Welker, and now Wilfork have had issues with management... there's a pattern there.


That is pretty much subjective. They drafted a guy much lower than both Gilmore and Dareus, and he has become a starter for them. You call that a bad pick?
I din't call it a bad pick. Please re-read. I said he really shouldn't be part of the discussion.


They job is to field a team with a chance to win each year. They have "managed" things well enough to do that, yet you call them a bad front office. Every team has good moves and bad moves, but the good front offices assemble the best teams. They have done thatI didn't use the term bad. I said they are mediocre at best. They have not done well in drafting (# of picks vs. # of hits), they have gotten rid of players when they develop them, and they rely on over the hill vets or overpay for talent past it's prime. It's the opposite of what most feel good FO's do. Again, they win because of a HOF HC and QB.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

29 is not his prime man sorry. He's losing speed. They paid 12 million for a guy on the decline.

...

They traded away a 5 time pro-bowler with several more quality years in front of him for a draft pick who could have been a flop.

Richard Seymour was 29 when they moved him and turned 30 the next season. Why does he have "several more quality years" in front of him at 30, but Revis on a one year deal at 29 is too old? Several cornerbacks have played at an extremely high level into their early thirties, and Revis has nearly impeccable technique.


It's a move that's been questioned.

By whom?


And this is a team that let a young up and comer in Talib go to pay top dollar for a 29 year old and moreover more than Talib got.

Talib at 28 coming off a knee injury is "a young up and comer." Revis at 29 is "a guy on the decline." Moreover, Revis got $12 million, Talib got $26 million guaranteed ($11.5 this year) and he's signed through 2019. If Revis is truly on the decline, he's off the roster this time next year and the Pats have no dead money.


And on the other side they have a criminal who may miss games due to a suspension.

Browner? Criminal? Even if I assumed his previous suspension for PEDs was legitimate (and Sherman's suspension being overturned because of the collector's negligence makes that questionable), his current "suspension" might not even be enforced.

They ended up with a very good young LT so they ended up getting a good player. But it was a risk. Setmour was one of their best players when they made that move and the defense was worse because of it.[/QUOTE]

2008 (Seymour's last year): Patriots allow 309 points, 8th best.
2009: 285 points, 5th best.
2010: 313 points, 8th best.


Spikes, Talib, Welker, and now Wilfork have had issues with management... there's a pattern there.

...

they have gotten rid of players when they develop them

These are very, very strange accusations for a Bills fan to level. Glass houses much?

[GingerP]

Then they wasted Welkers money on a lesser player in Amendola. They had Edelman already.

The point is they replaced the player. They let a guy go who was 32 years old, aren't you the invest in young players guy? They replaced his production, it isn't like they made a mistake letting him go.


29 is not his prime man sorry. He's losing speed. They paid 12 million for a guy on the decline. It's a move that's been questioned. And this is a team that let a young up and comer in Talib go to pay top dollar for a 29 year old and moreover more than Talib got. And on the other side they have a criminal who may miss games due to a suspension. The Talib move alone points to flawed thinking.

This is absolutely laughable.

First of all, Talib is only 6 months younger than Revis, so that 6 months makes one an "young up and coming" corner and the other in decline? You are embarrassing yourself with that one.

Secondly, who exactly has questioned the move. Revis has been the best CB in football since he came in to the league. Pro Football Focus gave him the highest overall grade (+18.2) of any QB in the NFL last year John Harbaugh went on record as saying he thought it made the Pats a lot better. He is a HOF-quality player in his prime, I'm not sure how you can degrade that.


They traded away a 5 time pro-bowler with several more quality years in front of him for a draft pick who could have been a flop. They ended up with a very good young LT so they ended up getting a good player. But it was a risk. Setmour was one of their best players when they made that move and the defense was worse because of it. And for what? Yet another draft pick for a team that ought to be scoring left and right with the stockpile of picks they always acquire? They needed the extra pick when they had plenty already? Maybe if the team was better at drafting they could have had a very good LT and Seymour.

No they wouldn't, because they wouldn't have a pick high enough to take him. They draft near the bottom of every round each year, so the only way they could be in position to get high enough to take a guy like Solder was a trade. You should take that into account when thinking of their draft, they haven't been a losing team in over a decade, they haven't had the advantage of high picks.

Seymour wanted to be the highest-paid DT in the NFL and had 1 year left on his deal. He was getting older, had missed 8 games the prior 2 seasons, and they had other guys to pay. They made a decision to get a 1st round pick in exchange for that 1 year, and it paid off. It was a very savvy move.


That's a deal that could have been done at any point. Did you have to push the guy who's been one of your stars for many years to the point where he wanted to quit? Spikes, Talib, Welker, and now Wilfork have had issues with management... there's a pattern there.

I see a pattern. I see a team that loses good players as they get older, because they get too expensive. However, I also see them replace those players while keeping their core together. Spikes wasn't even a core player, he was a 2-down LB that they replaced with a 3-down LB that is a better overall player in Jamie Collins. Talib they were hesitant to pay big money because of past off-field issues and injury (he has never played a full season, and missed at least 3 games each of the last 4 seasons). So, they get the best player at the position. Welker is a great player, but at 32 they weren't going to invest big money and they replaced him easily. Wilfork they got to take a paycut saving $5M, again a pretty savvy move. That usually isn't a process that goes well, but they did it and brought the player back. That is something a lot of good teams go through, because there are only so many cap dollars to go around.

Look, the Pats make mistakes. All teams do. However, they have been one of the NFL's best teams for a long time, and you don't do that when you don't know what you are doing. Belichick and Brady are at the center of it, but the bottom line is they put good teams out there every year. That is how they are judged.

[upstart]

for one year after they let Welker go and Amendola did very little and who they paid as much as Welker. If he's so great they should have never paid Amendola.

He'll be 29 by the time the season starts and he's not the player he once was... and they're paying him 12 mill next year. Why not sign someone younger who's on the upswing?

Solder is decent, he's a break out player this year. I hope for them he's a long term stud... He should be, he's a 1st round pick. Seymour was a 5 time pro-bowler.

The guy wanted out of NE... Does a great FO let it get to that?

Yes it is. Thanks.

No he isn't. Both Dareus and Gilmore have done more than just start. Not saying Hightower is a bad draftee, we don't know yet what he is... So he really shouldn't be in the discussion yet.

No, what it's like is ignoring their weaknesses as an organization because a HOF HC and QB keep them winning. This thread was looking at their FO and only their FO. They have stockpiled picks and should have had twice the number of hits with twice the picks... instead they have had as many hits as teams with half the picks or worse. That is not a sign of a great FO. Sorry. Then add in the list of players they made good and let leave (something Bills fans complain at our FO over), the annual signing of big name players past their prime that don't live up to prior hype and end up leaving soon after, the questionable IR tactics... Yeah, there is a case to be made for a sub-par FO up in NE.

"Well they win so they must be doing something right" Belicheck the HC and Brady the QB are... I agree. If you want to be a Pats homer who ignores criticism of their FO go ahead.

Let me ask you a question...are those picks the Pats let go out of football today ? The Pats can only carry 53 players like the rest of the league . New England has a deep lineup , that's why their a playoff team all the time. Most of those picks cut ,would make a team like the Bills in a heart beat.

Just saying.

[X-Era]

First off, I didn't realize Talib was 28. My mistake. However, Talib was right there on that team and the Pats let one of their best players go. And went on to sign a highly touted player to more money who is older (albeit not by much). Bills fans complain time and time again that the Bills let their best players go and yet the Pats do it time and time again. As I said, Seymour, Welker, Talib, Branch (who they brought back when he was on the decline)

On Revis, here is an article arguing that they shouldn't spend the money:

http://nesn.com/2014/03/darrelle-revis-too-costly-for-patriots-to-overspend-with-other-needs/

The same arguments fans make against the Bills are applicable... even more applicable to the Pats yet they're smart moves if the Pats make them. Letting players walk, bad drafts...

They have a long history of letting go of the players that you made good. A long history of drafting guys with off the field problems... Talib, Hernandez, Dennard. And then trying to cleanse yourself when they do what they do and commit more crimes. You drafted them. You either didn't do your homework like good FO's do or you didn't care about the risk. Which is fine. But own up to drafting a scumbag as a representative of your team. They've had a recent history of questionable IR tactics that players are calling them out for. They were cheaters. It's kind of comical that anyone would ignore all of that simply because they win. Yes, they win. But, yes, they make many questionable choices. They are not free from criticism for it.

I'm not going to argue it over and over. Take a good look at their drafts. Take a look at their personnel moves. It's a mediocre FO.

[GingerP]

On Revis, here is an article arguing that they shouldn't spend the money:

http://nesn.com/2014/03/darrelle-revis-too-costly-for-patriots-to-overspend-with-other-needs/

I see, so an article made before they even acquired the player that argues he is too expensive on his old contract. Of course, they didn't get him on his old contract, they got him for a $7M cap number this year. The whole premise of the article ended up being not true, because the Revis signing didn't keep them from doing anything. They still have $8M in cap room left, despite signing him.

Besides, nothing in that article supports your contention that Revis is "in decline". In fact, the article states he would be an upgrade over Talib.


The same arguments fans make against the Bills are applicable... even more applicable to the Pats yet they're smart moves if the Pats make them. Letting players walk, bad drafts...

The difference is, they make more good moves that lead to wins. That is the bottom line. You keep focusing on individual moves, but not the overall strategy of team-building. At the end of the day, they build a team that wins.

For instance, you keep harping on them letting Talib go. However, they replaced him with a better player, who will make the same amount of cash this year as Talib does in Denver and has a cap number that is actually slightly less than Talib this year. How is that not a smart play?

You mention they let Seymour go, but they got a 1st round pick in return and turned that into a valuable asset. That for a guy with 1-year left on his deal who wanted to be the highest-paid in the NFL at his position (and ended up being so).

Contrast that with the Byrd situation. Byrd left and the Bills got nothing in return for him, and they signed nobody to replace him. That is the difference.

At the end of the day, what the Bills do is not relevant to the Pats. The Bills need to improve on their own, and they are a team with some talent. However, there is a reason NE wins games, and it is because they are a well-run organization from top-to-bottom. They make mistakes like everyone else, but they make enough good ones to field a competitive team year-in-and-out, despite drafting near the bottom of the round and dealing with cap issues because their good players want to get paid. Players come and go, but the constant is winning. Putting them down doesn't make the Bills better, it only makes you look petty. The focus should be on the team the Bills build.

[chris66]

Talib was a trade. Hernandez and Dennard were the only 2.
The contract that Denver gave Talib was insane for a player that has never played a full season.

[better days]

Talib was a trade. Hernandez and Dennard were the only 2.
The contract that Denver gave Talib was insane for a player that has never played a full season.

It is not like Talib ever missed a lot of games in any season.

The most games he missed in a season was 6 the year the Bucs traded him to the Pats*

And at least 2 of those games missed were due to the trade that year.

He is a premier CB worth the money especially considering the money Byrd got paid.

[Mike]

There is no point arguing with a homer. They will always give the Bills FO the benefit of the doubt, the 20/20 vision, the we can't pay everyone excuse or the they didn't want to be here pass.

While being critical of other winning FO: they made bad pics, they couldn't resign xyz player, Ohhh they will have a hard time resigning players in future, they got lucky to draft xyz player.

There is no proof needed, it just pure emotion. They fall in and out of love with players based on their relationship with the FO.

They will always find the hole in a team like the Pats, or Seahawks and Downplay their success while giving the Bills FO a pass.

It's an emotional game. Their identity is caught up in the Bills success so an attack on the Bills is like a personal attack. As a result, there is no chance of being objective, even about other teams!

[better days]

There is no point arguing with a homer. They will always give the Bills FO the benefit of the doubt, the 20/20 vision, the we can't pay everyone excuse or the they didn't want to be here pass.

While being critical of other winning FO: they made bad pics, they couldn't resign xyz player, Ohhh they will have a hard time resigning players in future, they got lucky to draft xyz player.

There is no proof needed, it just pure emotion. They fall in and out of love with players based on their relationship with the FO.

They will always find the hole in a team like the Pats, or Seahawks and Downplay their success while giving the Bills FO a pass.

It's an emotional game. Their identity is caught up in the Bills success so an attack on the Bills is like a personal attack. As a result, there is no chance of being objective, even about other teams!

Take it to a Pats* board if you want praise for the Pats*

[DesertFox24]

The Pats are the Pats because of Tom Brady he hides a lot of mistakes and miscues. He is one of the top 3 greatest QBs to ever play the game.

The true test of the pats will be post Brady.

Anyone that feels otherwise only needs to look at how successful pats players have been after leaving the pats.

[Mike]

The Pats are the Pats because of Tom Brady he hides a lot of mistakes and miscues. He is one of the top 3 greatest QBs to ever play the game.

The true test of the pats will be post Brady.

Anyone that feels otherwise only needs to look at how successful pats players have been after leaving the pats.

Dude that's like saying a Formula One car without an engine wouldn't go as fast.

Every Dynasty has had a great coach & QB.

It's like the Phill Jackson excuse, but but he had Kobe & Jordan. Well pick another coach that won at least 3+ championships with scrubs. There isn't one.

Great teams with great players win. Taking Brady & Belichick out the equation is like a formula one car without an engine.

[better days]

Dude that's like saying a Formula One car without an engine wouldn't go as fast.

Every Dynasty has had a great coach & QB.

It's like the Phill Jackson excuse, but but he had Kobe & Jordan. Well pick another coach that won at least 3+ championships with scrubs. There isn't one.

Great teams with great players win. Taking Brady & Belichick out the equation is like a formula one car without an engine.

Most you Pats* fans will jump off the band wagon when Brady & Belicheat go.

[Mike]

To many of your points

Unless you have a franchise QB & HOF type Coach you probably won't win a SB.

That's basically the lesson here. Pats, Colts, Packers, Saints were good enough & lucky enough to draft/sign their franchise QB

If your QB is not as Good their QB will be beating you for next 15 years = no SB for you.

So Bills fans, do you ever see EJ being as good as Manning or Brees or Brady or Rogesr or Luck or Wilson or Rothlisburger, etc?

Is he really gonna win the Bills an SB or we will be in no mans land for another 15 years?

[Mike]

Most you Pats* fans will jump off the band wagon when Brady & Belicheat go.
I'm not a Pats fan but I do appreciate success and learn from it. Organization are top down and an organization will only be as successful as it's leader.

As for their fans, I could care less what they do. Why should I care if a bunch of Pat fans stop following a bad team. It's not what football is about.

[X-Era]

Spikes with more "love" for the awesome Pats org:

http://nextimpulsesports.com/2014/04/09/brandon-spikes-compares-playing-patriots-slavery/

[DesertFox24]

Dude that's like saying a Formula One car without an engine wouldn't go as fast.

Every Dynasty has had a great coach & QB.

It's like the Phill Jackson excuse, but but he had Kobe & Jordan. Well pick another coach that won at least 3+ championships with scrubs. There isn't one.

Great teams with great players win. Taking Brady & Belichick out the equation is like a formula one car without an engine.


The pats have grossly misjudged their talent at wr for years, even during the welker years they did not have another after Randy left that made anyone scared.

Tom Brady is a great QB but they took him in the 6th round, had another team took him I will be willing to beat a lot of money they do not even get to a super bowl.

Yes I understand and agree with great players on great teams and that rings true in every sport, but to get lucky with a 6th round qb to the levels they have will more than likely never happen again, as it never happened prior.

I am not going to take anything away from the pats as a team as they are still the class of the AFC east and probably still one of the top 5 teams in the nfl, but if you look at their drafting record it is not good at all. The percentage of hits to misses is lower than the average of all nfl teams and that is an indicment in and of itself.

Yes they have drafted some good players but of those good players there are many more bad ones, and more than any other team in the AFC east. The pats are just fortunate that the rest of the teams in AFC east were terribly run in the early 2000s and even to this day.

The jets and phins coaches are on one year deals pretty much with new GMs, the Phins GM is a joke. The jets have no corners and their defence is predicated on defense.

The bills have not proven anything other than losing over the past 14 years.

If not for Tom Brady I would say the AFC east would have been talked about like the NFC west was three years ago when 7-9 seattle won the division.

[sudzy]

A question for X-era that I don't think has been asked yet. Do you believe that the Bills front office is better then the Pats?

I'll ask again. And I'll open it up to all the homers.

[X-Era]

I'll ask again. And I'll open it up to all the homers.
I think the Bills FO has done a better job at drafting and with our offseason moves over the past 5 years as a whole. I think we're classier, treat players with more respect, and make stronger draft choices.

That said, we aren't winning so the job isn't done and the product is sub-par. But, if we look solely at the FO's and compare them I like our FO better.

And let me save some of you the trouble. Yes, this is a game about winning and we haven't. And that means the FO is a part of that failure. But I'm able to assess them as a component and I like a lot of what I see. We're not perfect, but yes I like our FO better than the Pats.

Too many here want to ignore what a HOF HC and HOF QB will do for any team and use it as the blanket to cover the questionable moves the Pats have made both in the draft and in personnel.

[EDS]

I think the Bills FO has done a better job at drafting and with our offseason moves over the past 5 years as a whole. I think we're classier, treat players with more respect, and make stronger draft choices.

That said, we aren't winning so the job isn't done and the product is sub-par. But, if we look solely at the FO's and compare them I like our FO better.

And let me save some of you the trouble. Yes, this is a game about winning and we haven't. And that means the FO is a part of that failure. But I'm able to assess them as a component and I like a lot of what I see. We're not perfect, but yes I like our FO better than the Pats.

Too many here want to ignore what a HOF HC and HOF QB will do for any team and use it as the blanket to cover the questionable moves the Pats have made both in the draft and in personnel.

I would trade the Bills front office for a HOF HC and QB every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

[better days]

I'm not a Pats fan but I do appreciate success and learn from it. Organization are top down and an organization will only be as successful as it's leader.

As for their fans, I could care less what they do. Why should I care if a bunch of Pat fans stop following a bad team. It's not what football is about.

The only thing you could learn from Belicheck is how to CHEAT.

[X-Era]

I would trade the Bills front office for a HOF HC and QB every day of the week and twice on Sundays.
I tend to agree with you there. What I want is both. But I'll "settle" for a solid FO and SB caliber QB.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

The pats have grossly misjudged their talent at wr for years, even during the welker years they did not have another after Randy left that made anyone scared.

Sure, but its not like it hindered them any when they were rolling out two beast tight ends and Woodhead out of the backfield. They put up 500+ points in the two years after Moss left. They fell off this season after losing Hernandez AND Welker AND Woodhead AND Gronk for most of the season, but that was only enough drop drop them from the #1 offense to the #3 offense.


Tom Brady is a great QB but they took him in the 6th round, had another team took him I will be willing to beat a lot of money they do not even get to a super bowl.

People spent half his career claiming Brady was carried to the Super Bowl by his defense, now it's only because of Brady?


The percentage of hits to misses is lower than the average of all nfl teams and that is an indicment in and of itself.

Based on what stats and what "average"?


The jets have no corners and their defence is predicated on defense.

That's deep, man. Deeeep.

In any event, the Jets are relying on Milliner to make the jump to be a #1 corner. As we learned in this thread, 29 is on the downslope of a DB's career supposedly, so letting the soon to be 30 Cromartie walk was a smart move, right?

[chris66]

Most you Pats* fans will jump off the band wagon when Brady & Belicheat go.

Doubt that. Kraft has own the team for 20 years with only 3 losing seasons. Pretty sure he will hire another good HC

[better days]

Doubt that. Kraft has own the team for 20 years with only 3 losing seasons. Pretty sure he will hire another good HC

I good HC does not look all that good without a franchise QB.

[DesertFox24]

Sure, but its not like it hindered them any when they were rolling out two beast tight ends and Woodhead out of the backfield. They put up 500+ points in the two years after Moss left. They fell off this season after losing Hernandez AND Welker AND Woodhead AND Gronk for most of the season, but that was only enough drop drop them from the #1 offense to the #3 offense.



People spent half his career claiming Brady was carried to the Super Bowl by his defense, now it's only because of Brady?



Based on what stats and what "average"?



That's deep, man. Deeeep.

In any event, the Jets are relying on Milliner to make the jump to be a #1 corner. As we learned in this thread, 29 is on the downslope of a DB's career supposedly, so letting the soon to be 30 Cromartie walk was a smart move, right?

The jets quote was supposed to say their defense is predicated on great press corners.

As for the draft stats you can look it up if you want, it has been done many times before.

Brady won super bowls on his rookie contract so yes the defense and running game did carry them the first two super bowls for sure. Since his last super bowl win though and his mega contract which is not as high as the others he has carried the team.

You are correct and they did what good teams do and play to their strengths but if you look at their draft record they have tried for years to get more WRs and have failed at it.

[streetkings01]

They have a HC that always seems to be 2 steps ahead of everyone else..........thats why they keep winning.

[better days]

They have a HC that always seems to be 2 steps ahead of everyone else..........thats why they keep winning.

They keep winning because of a LOT of help from officials..............just give it to them.

[Mike13]

Still cant win without the cameras.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

The jets quote was supposed to say their defense is predicated on great press corners.

I gathered that, but they really only need one. Having a lockdown corner on the opposing teams' #1 gives them the numbers advantage to run exotic blitzes.


As for the draft stats you can look it up if you want, it has been done many times before.

So provide a link.


Brady won super bowls on his rookie contract so yes the defense and running game did carry them the first two super bowls for sure. Since his last super bowl win though and his mega contract which is not as high as the others he has carried the team.

I agree with this, but you're the one who says they don't even make the Super Bowl without Brady.


if you look at their draft record they have tried for years to get more WRs and have failed at it.

They haven't tried all that hard. They haven't invested a first rounder in a wideout since 1996, and have invested 5 2nd rounders since they took Brady in 2001. Two (Branch and the Welker trade) turned out great, two busted (Jackson and Johnson) and Dobson is too young to call either way. After that are a bunch of detritus, but everyone drafts detritus in the mid to late rounds.

Again, a strange accusation for a Bills fan to lay. If not for getting "lucky" finding Steve Johnson in the 7th, our wideout corps would have been a disaster area for nearly a decade straight.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

FWIW, this was done a few seasons ago:

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/decade-the-making-the-ultimate-nfl-draft-grades/2419/


Using information from the great folks at pro-football-reference.com (http://www.profootballreference.com) – or, as we like to call it, "The Bible" – we broke down the 10 drafts from 2001-2010 looking for an impartial answer to who was the best. Who drafted the most stars, the most longtime starters, the most promising young players? Who had the most players from their drafts active in the league last year? Who was the best?

When it was all said and done, there was an easy and not-so-surprising answer: the New England Patriots.

...

New England (A)
Pro Bowlers: 11 (2nd)
Draftees Active in 2010: 46 (t-3rd)
Players with 50+ Career AV: 7 (1st)
Players with 20+ Career AV: 22 (t-1st)
Best Pick: CB Asante Samuel (4th round, 2003)
Worst Pick: WR Chad Jackson (2nd round, 2006)

Summary: The Patriots got at least one impact player in each of their 10 drafts from 2001-2010, and maybe the biggest tribute to their ability to identify top talent is that all 10 of their No. 1 picks were still playing in the league last year along with 11 of their 14 No. 2s. This bodes well for 2011 draftees Nate Solder, Ras-I Dowling and Shane Vereen.

[DesertFox24]

I gathered that, but they really only need one. Having a lockdown corner on the opposing teams' #1 gives them the numbers advantage to run exotic blitzes.



So provide a link.



I agree with this, but you're the one who says they don't even make the Super Bowl without Brady.



They haven't tried all that hard. They haven't invested a first rounder in a wideout since 1996, and have invested 5 2nd rounders since they took Brady in 2001. Two (Branch and the Welker trade) turned out great, two busted (Jackson and Johnson) and Dobson is too young to call either way. After that are a bunch of detritus, but everyone drafts detritus in the mid to late rounds.

Again, a strange accusation for a Bills fan to lay. If not for getting "lucky" finding Steve Johnson in the 7th, our wideout corps would have been a disaster area for nearly a decade straight.

I am probably not stating this correctly.

Tom Brady was a good QB a top 10 QB when they won, he is now the best in the game and one of the best all time. When they started to pay him they could not pay other players or get other players who could push them over the top. This hurts depth.

Ie Gronk goes out and they dont have the cap space or the rookie deal depth behind him to keep the ship churning. Granted no team with a top 5 QB.

That being said they have a lot of misses that have cost them.

Not drafting Clay Matthews when they had two chances, drafting other guys that are not good at all.

No they are not the worst front office that is the raiders or what was the previous Jags regime. That being said if Tom Brady was never drafted by them I do think they would catch a lot more flak. They are not the drafting genius that every media guy says they are. They are better than the colts were even though both missed the playoffs when their star QB went down they still won 11 games not like the colts who got luck.

[Mike]

The pats have grossly misjudged their talent at wr for years, even during the welker years they did not have another after Randy left that made anyone scared.
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>>>>>>>>>>>> I have this theory that every team is great at drafting certain positions and is totally blinded by others. For the Pats, the WR is one position they can't draft worth ****. Good for them for going to FA to meet that need. It worked but with aging players they are back to square one.
[ Side Note: 2 of the most successful teams in the 2000's both had ****y wr: eagles & pats. Some thing the position is currently overvalued>>>>>
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Tom Brady is a great QB but they took him in the 6th round, had another team took him I will be willing to beat a lot of money they do not even get to a super bowl.
----------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>your either good or lucky.
In any case, drafting Brady seems lucky but we agree that putting together a championship TEAM & winning a SB was not luck. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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Yes I understand and agree with great players on great teams and that rings true in every sport, but to get lucky with a 6th round qb to the levels they have will more than likely never happen again, as it never happened prior.

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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
- Roger Staunach was drafted in 10th round (NFL) & 16th round AFL
- Bart Start was drafted in 17th round
- Joe Montana was 3rd rounder

Other Pro Bowlers
- Mark Brunell 5th round (packers)
- Rich Gannon 4th round (pats)
- Matt Hasselbeck 6th round (packers)

Remember how certain teams have a knack for picking certain positions?
At one point in the. 90's the Packers had 3 ProBowl Caliber QBs! >>>>>>>
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I am not going to take anything away from the pats as a team as they are still the class of the AFC east and probably still one of the top 5 teams in the nfl, but if you look at their drafting record it is not good at all. The percentage of hits to misses is lower than the average of all nfl teams and that is an indicment in and of itself.
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>>>>>>>>>. They have lost a step. The NFL, the cap, $$$ all took a piece of the Pats. Every few years they had to hire new coaches, GMs, assistance, etc...
Same with players: they had to signor let some go,etc

Fortunately, it's hard to draft superstars & pats came back down to earth. Their drafts have been about average. Nothing spectacular!

Now I said it about 3 yrs ago that the Pats are done winning SBs. They will still be a competitive team, a top AFC unit, but their glory days are behind them. Next up: Seattle >>>>>>>>
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Yes they have drafted some good players but of those good players there are many more bad ones, and more than any other team in the AFC east. The pats are just fortunate that the rest of the teams in AFC east were terribly run in the early 2000s and even to this day.

The jets and phins coaches are on one year deals pretty much with new GMs, the Phins GM is a joke. The jets have no corners and their defence is predicated on defense.

The bills have not proven anything other than losing over the past 14 years.

If not for Tom Brady I would say the AFC east would have been talked about like the NFC west was three years ago when 7-9 seattle won the division.

[stuckincincy]

A first round talent that they got in the seventh. They really **** the bed there...

They say that lightening never strikes twice in the same place. That's because once is enough. :dance:

[GvilleBills]

They say that lightening never strikes twice in the same place. That's because once is enough. :dance:

Hey-oooo!