Charlie Casserly has 7 QBS in 2014 draft class ranked ahead of EJ Manuel

[Ginger Vitis]

On NFLN Casserly has these 7 QBS ranked ahead of where he had Manuel last year

1.Bridgewater
2.Manziel
3.Bortles
4.Carr
5.Garropolo
6.McCarron
7.Mettenburger

Wow.. I wonder if other draft experts think more highly of Garropolo and McCarron than Manuel

[SquishDaFish]

Who gives a ****. EJ is ours now so root for him and hope for the best

[DesertFox24]

Charlie casselry who cares. Teams had Tom Brady as undraftable and Ryan leaf ahead of Peyton. All that matters now is what ej does

[SpikedLemonade]

Casserly is a stubborn bastard. He thought there were no 1st round QBs last year and he is sticking to it.

[Buffalogic]

Lol Mccarron....Oooookay. I don't even really like EJ, but that's just laughable.

[Skooby]

Casserly is a stubborn bastard. He thought there were no 1st round QBs last year and he is sticking to it.

He might be right.

[DraftBoy]

Charlie Casserly drafted David Carr #1 overall…

Any questions?

[Mike]

Charlie casselry who cares. Teams had Tom Brady as undraftable and Ryan leaf ahead of Peyton. All that matters now is what ej does

It still goes to show organizational incompetence. If you remember, even last year, EJ was considered a 3-4 round pick by many teams.

At this point, all we can do as fans is *hope that he turns out to be a McNabb type QB

[Mike]

Charlie Casserly drafted David Carr #1 overall…

Any questions?

As you like to point out that's 20/20 hindsight. Most teams & QB evaluators had him as top pick.

[YardRat]

It still goes to show organizational incompetence. If you remember, even last year, EJ was considered a 3-4 round pick by many teams.

At this point, all we can do as fans is *hope that he turns out to be a McNabb type QB

It's pretty humorous that 'realists' cling to the notion that they can see into the future.

[feldspar]

Charlie Casserly is a very handsome man.

[Ginger Vitis]

Casserly also blew it on QB Heath Shuler 3rd overall in 1994..Maybe he cant evaluate Qbs lol He did well though when he was GM of the Redskins getting a few probowl position players drafted in late rounds.. And in the the early 80s when Casserly was a Redskin scout he recommended to the redskin front office they sign UFAs Joe Jacoby and Jeff Bostic

[DraftBoy]

As you like to point out that's 20/20 hindsight. Most teams & QB evaluators had him as top pick.

I'm not sure that's true and this isn't about being 20/20. This is simply stating he has some really suspect QB evaluations under his belt.

[TigerJ]

Whatever one might think of Charlie Casserly's ability to evaluate QBs, I think the OP is trying to make an apples to apples comparison that just isn't apples to apples. Last year's draft was last year's draft, and besides different QBs, the rest of the players are all different too. He may well have a lower opinion of Manuel than all the other QBs, but unless he comes out and says, "I like all these QBs better than Manuel," we can't be certain of how he ranks him based on how they are ranked in a mock draft or big board of this year's players. Where is the link, anyways?

[Ginger Vitis]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000340813/article/casserly-seven-qbs-in-2014-nfl-draft-rate-ahead-of-ej-manuel

When Daniel Jeremiah of NFl.com combines the 2014 and 2013 QB class Manuel doesn't make his Top 5.. After Jeremiah puts Bridgewater No.1 Bucky Brooks says " No.2 is where we put Manuel? He was the 1st Round pick last year" Jeremiah says "Come on Buck" and laughs lol

[Mr. Pink]

We all knew even last year that it was a weak QB draft.

Unfortunately the front office picked the wrong year to decide to finally draft a QB.

[black N yellow]

16830

[Mace]

Charlie Casserly is a very handsome man.

Oh this was awesome.

[Mike]

I'm not sure that's true and this isn't about being 20/20. This is simply stating he has some really suspect QB evaluations under his belt.

That's true. Just because others had him as 1st overall doesn't amount to much. I hope that we continue to apply this logical sentiment across the board.

[Mike]

Whatever one might think of Charlie Casserly's ability to evaluate QBs, I think the OP is trying to make an apples to apples comparison that just isn't apples to apples. Last year's draft was last year's draft, and besides different QBs, the rest of the players are all different too. He may well have a lower opinion of Manuel than all the other QBs, but unless he comes out and says, "I like all these QBs better than Manuel," we can't be certain of how he ranks him based on how they are ranked in a mock draft or big board of this year's players. Where is the link, anyways?

This isn't intellectually honest. Draft classes are constantly compared to each other and the best FOs plan ahead with some knowledge of who to expect to become draft eligible.

For instance, it was known ahead of time (via comparisons) that last years QB class was weak. The prior year it was predicted that it would be a very strong class with Luck & RG3. This years overall draft class is very very strong. This is one of the best draft classes to come out in some time.

[Mike]

It's pretty humorous that 'realists' cling to the notion that they can see into the future.

Only you:) would confuse the past and the future.

PS: What I'm actually doing is looking into the past.

[swiper]

Charlie Casserly drafted David Carr #1 overall…

Any questions?

David Carr was rated that high. If he hadn't taken Carr, the next guy would have. That's BS reasoning at it's best.

The FACT is there are QBs in this draft that are CLEARLY better than EJ Manuel. To sit and say "EJ is our guy just go with it" is stupid.

[swiper]

I'm not sure that's true and this isn't about being 20/20. This is simply stating he has some really suspect QB evaluations under his belt.

WTF? You don't deseve to call yourself Draftboy - that's a joke.

[better days]

David Carr was rated that high. If he hadn't taken Carr, the next guy would have. That's BS reasoning at it's best.

The FACT is there are QBs in this draft that are CLEARLY better than EJ Manuel. To sit and say "EJ is our guy just go with it" is stupid.

Rated that high by who? The "media experts"?

It just goes to prove the draft is an inexact guessing game, not an exact science.

All 7 of those QB's may prove to be better than EJ, or EJ may prove to be better than all 7 of them.

Or EJ may prove to be better than some of them but not others. Time will tell.

Myself, I'm not in love with any of the QB's in this draft like I was with Russell Wilson or Mike Glennon.

[SquishDaFish]

WTF? You don't deseve to call yourself Draftboy - that's a joke.

You obviously havent been around here long enough to know that he knows what hes talking about. You sir are a JOKE

[gr8slayer]

He'd be number 4 on my list. This is one of the stronger QB classes we've ever seen, so he's not going out on much of a limb.

[jills]

On NFLN Casserly has these 7 QBS ranked ahead of where he had Manuel last year

1.Bridgewater
2.Manziel
3.Bortles
4.Carr
5.Garropolo
6.McCarron
7.Mettenburger

Wow.. I wonder if other draft experts think more highly of Garropolo and McCarron than Manuel

I bet the homers don't like this because their logic just went down the toilet. Casserly is a former NFL GM so his opinion is more valuable than any of the posters in this messageboard.

[EDS]

I would support the Bills front offices' reasonable use of a 3rd or 4th round draft pick on a QB in this draft. EJ is no sure thing and it would be smart to have a back-up plan, and that back-up plan would not preclude me from drafting another QB early in the 2015 draft if EJ flops this season.

[MidnightVoice]

Here is how the NFL evaluated QBs in 1983

1—John Elway

7—Todd Blackledge

14—Jim Kelly

15—Tony Eason

24—Ken O'Brien

27—Dan Marino

[DesertFox24]

I'm not sure that's true and this isn't about being 20/20. This is simply stating he has some really suspect QB evaluations under his belt.

Did he not draft Heath Shuler as well.

[better days]

Here is how the NFL evaluated QBs in 1983

1—John Elway

7—Todd Blackledge

14—Jim Kelly

15—Tony Eason

24—Ken O'Brien

27—Dan Marino

I think some had Eason & O'Brien over Kelly because Kelly had injured his shoulder.

[OpIv37]

I have to wonder what people on this board would be saying about Casserly if he said he had no QB's in this draft ranked ahead of EJ.....

[swiper]

You obviously havent been around here long enough to know that he knows what hes talking about. You sir are a JOKE

I've been around to see him called out by other posters quite often - so you sir are the joke.

And David Carr was rated higher than any QB in the 2013 or 2014 draft. Fact.

So don't go away mad. Just go away.

[better days]

I've been around to see him called out by other posters quite often - so you sir are the joke.

And David Carr was rated higher than any QB in the 2013 or 2014 draft. Fact.

So don't go away mad. Just go away.

Well, you are correct. Carr was rated higher than any other QB in that draft.

That just goes to show the draft is a crap shoot.

[Mike]

I have to wonder what people on this board would be saying about Casserly if he said he had no QB's in this draft ranked ahead of EJ.....

They would commend him for his insights and obviously in such a situation he knows best because he was a former GM

Homers consistently appeal to authority when it suits their point of view. When it confirms their group think they are all in.
When an 'expert' goes against their deeply held beliefs that its heresy and they must resort to ad hominem attacks, because logic and the ability to think is beyond them.

What you have to know is that homers are like robots. They are mechanical in nature and its very easy to predict their thoughts, beliefs, and behaviors. They are auto-mans that rarely get beneath the surface of things. Another word for this is, superficial.

[better days]

They would commend him for his insights and obviously in such a situation he knows best because he was a former GM

Homers consistently appeal to authority when it suits their point of view. When it confirms their group think they are all in.
When an 'expert' goes against their deeply held beliefs that its heresy and they must resort to ad hominem attacks, because logic and the ability to think is beyond them.

What you have to know is that homers are like robots. They are mechanical in nature and its very easy to predict their thoughts, beliefs, and behaviors. They are auto-mans that rarely get beneath the surface of things. Another word for this is, superficial.

Pessimists are no different, they are just opposite.

If an expert supports the pessimist point of view, pessimists are all over it.

Example: Op & Mike.

[feldspar]

They would commend him for his insights and obviously in such a situation he knows best because he was a former GM

Homers consistently appeal to authority when it suits their point of view. When it confirms their group think they are all in.
When an 'expert' goes against their deeply held beliefs that its heresy and they must resort to ad hominem attacks, because logic and the ability to think is beyond them.

What you have to know is that homers are like robots. They are mechanical in nature and its very easy to predict their thoughts, beliefs, and behaviors. They are auto-mans that rarely get beneath the surface of things. Another word for this is, superficial.

You really need to get a life, dude.

[YardRat]

Only you:) would confuse the past and the future.

PS: What I'm actually doing is looking into the past.


It still goes to show organizational incompetence.

Obviously you've already determined Manuel to be a wasted, or at best, poor draft pick due to 'incompetence', despite anything being proven at this point. If EJ does become successful, does that still portray 'incompetence' for making the pick?

Why don't you peer deeper into your crystal ball and tell the rest of us which QB's from 2013-2014 will have the most success, and which will fail miserably?

[Downinfloflo]

Casserly is a stubborn bastard. He thought there were no 1st round QBs last year and he is sticking to it.

Was he wrong?

I don't think so.

[kishoph]

Ha Ha, you talking about a guy that picked David Carr #1 overall and used the 3rd pick in the draft to take Heath Shuler, Casserly knows QB's. :clown:

[DesertFox24]

Look who really cares people rated ej bad because they said he was only a half read guy. Had nothing to do with accuracy in college game management or how he played in bowl games. Another guy was talked bad about and all he did was win at michigan. Ej has loads of physical ability whether he puts it together or not is up to him. These media guys are ridiculous and yes there was no luck last year but there is not this year either. The idea that bortles bridgewater and Manziel are superior talents over geno and ej is just plain laughable.

Ej and geno have a much better resume numbers and big game experience than any of these guys except mccaccarn who won two nats. Ej was 4-0 in bowls and I think geno was 3-1.

Mettenberger garapoloa Carr please.

There are three qbs I would consider drafting and not before round 4. Aaron Murray mettenberger I like him but in round 4 needs a lot of work. And tom savage.

Those are the only guys I think will ever do anything in this league. And I think ton savage is best of bunch was high on him since his fresh year at Rutgers

[YardRat]

I'd take McCarron, Murray or Mettenberg anywhere from the fourth on,but that certainly isn't an indictment against EJ.

[more cowbell]

I personally don't see anything about any of the QBs in this draft that stands out. I'm not a homer for EJ; I certainly have my suspicions...but if this was a great QB draft the Texans (who have NO QB) wouldn't be dying to trade down... And more teams would be trying to trade up.

Blake Bortles is a sequel to Blaine Gabbert (put up nice numbers in a crap conference for one year) Gabbert did that at Mizzou before they moved to the SEC. Bortles was virtually off the radar until late in the college season, and the reason he's in play to be the top pick is because he is the most "conventional" in terms of size and mechanics of all the other QBs.

Bridgewater has has a trainwreck of an offseason, has looked horrible at several team workouts. He also played in one of the worst if not the worst conference in college football.

Manziel is the QB with the most potential, however has only two years of experience... Aside from his small frame; people seem to forget that this guy is NOT a winner. An argument I hear about him is that he always finds a way to get the job done...if that was the case..wouldn't A&M have won the title? I slightly remember another unconventional QB who was "winner" named Tebow...and that worked out well...

Derek Carr very well may be the best QB in this draft, improving every year in a pro style system. The stigma surrounding him is obviously related to his brother flopping in the pros.

Was Manuel "overdrafted" last year...? I guess?

But to go ahead and say that this is a much better draft for QBs and that every QB is a better prospect than Manuel is flat out incorrect

[TacklingDummy]

I have to wonder what people on this board would be saying about Casserly if he said he had no QB's in this draft ranked ahead of EJ.....

For starters some Homer would have started a thread...

Charlie Casserly had EJ Manuel ranked ahead of 7 QBS in 2014 draft class

[Jry44]

If only there were a Heath Schuler or David Carr in last years draft, Charlie......

[swiper]

If only there were a Heath Schuler or David Carr in last years draft, Charlie......


There were worse: EJ Manuel & Geno Smith

[Jry44]

There were worse: EJ Manuel & Geno Smith

You have the right to reserve judgment after one season. I'll wait to see more before I reserve judgment.

It's a good thing the Colts didn't proclaim Peyton Manning a bust after his rookie season. And Vince Young a hall of famer after his...... just saying.

And furthermore..... Casserly is the epitome of the pot calling the kettle black. That was my point.

[Mike]

You have the right to reserve judgment after one season. I'll wait to see more before I reserve judgment.

It's a good thing the Colts didn't proclaim Peyton Manning a bust after his rookie season. And Vince Young a hall of famer after his...... just saying.

And furthermore..... Casserly is the epitome of the pot calling the kettle black. That was my point.

I remember watching Manning's rookie season and I though he was very good. He threw for 26TD a record that still stands.
- what's important is that he showed what he can do: manipulate defenses, throw WR open, pin point accuracy, took advantage of what was there, etc...
- the mistakes he was making were rookie mistakes that he could overcome.

* When is the last time a Bills QB threw as manny TDs as Payton during his rookie season?

[stuckincincy]

Pro football is a life support system for hundreds of flacks.

[Mouldsie]

I agree with the first 5

[The Popcorn]

Casserly is a stubborn bastard. He thought there were no 1st round QBs last year and he is sticking to it.

I think he's right.

[The Popcorn]

Here is how the NFL evaluated QBs in 1983

1—John Elway

7—Todd Blackledge

14—Jim Kelly

15—Tony Eason

24—Ken O'Brien

27—Dan Marino

Marino had been rumored to be part of the cocaine use going on at Pitt. That's why he slid in that draft.

[feldspar]

* When is the last time a Bills QB threw as manny TDs as Payton during his rookie season?

Now there is a realist's question, because it's objective, measured, and completely fair. Compare somebody who is in the discussion of the best QB in history to any rookie...uh-huh.

You know, you may want to check and see if there was even a single Bills quarterback that strictly started from the get-go as a rookie in the whole history of the team since the merger. I'm pretty sure that there is only a couple...there was Jim Kelly, who had experience in the USFL before his "rookie" season...so the whole "rookie" label may be a little tainted in that instance. And there was also Dennis Shaw, who was named Offensive Rookie of the Year the very year the merger happened.

Also, there is only ONE single quarterback that threw as many TDs as Manning as a rookie for ANY team, and that's Russell Wilson. Cam Newton holds the record for most overall TDs though: 21 passing and 14 rushing.

Peyton Manning also threw more interceptions as a rookie than anybody else did. When was the last time a Bill's rookie QB threw for more interceptions that Peyton Manning did, superior realist? I'm pretty sure that he holds the record for most LOSSES by a rookie QB that played all of the games too. The guy lost 13 games as a rookie. Troy Aikman didn't lose as many games; he only lost 11...but he didn't win a single game a rookie.

Again, Peyton Manning won THREE games a rookie. When was the last time a Bills rookie QB lost as many games? Never.

If you want to compare your rookie quarterback to Peyton Manning, then you should turn in your "realist" membership card and just proclaim yourself as a true asswipe.

[YardRat]

I really think some fans don't appreciate how special P.Manning and Brady are. Go back through the history of the league, and as far as finding QB's that can actually carry a team for an extended period of time, they are few and far between. Otto Graham, for sure. Maybe Bob Waterfield. Marino may be the closest thing in the Super Bowl era, as much as I hate to admit it. All of the other 'franchise' QB's pretty much had strong supporting casts around them.

[Mike]

Now there is a realist's question, because it's objective, measured, and completely fair. Compare somebody who is in the discussion of the best QB in history to any rookie...uh-huh.

You know, you may want to check and see if there was even a single Bills quarterback that strictly started from the get-go as a rookie in the whole history of the team since the merger. I'm pretty sure that there is only a couple...there was Jim Kelly, who had experience in the USFL before his "rookie" season...so the whole "rookie" label may be a little tainted in that instance. And there was also Dennis Shaw, who was named Offensive Rookie of the Year the very year the merger happened.

Also, there is only ONE single quarterback that threw as many TDs as Manning as a rookie for ANY team, and that's Russell Wilson. Cam Newton holds the record for most overall TDs though: 21 passing and 14 rushing.

Peyton Manning also threw more interceptions as a rookie than anybody else did. When was the last time a Bill's rookie QB threw for more interceptions that Peyton Manning did, superior realist? I'm pretty sure that he holds the record for most LOSSES by a rookie QB that played all of the games too. The guy lost 13 games as a rookie. Troy Aikman didn't lose as many games; he only lost 11...but he didn't win a single game a rookie.

Again, Peyton Manning won THREE games a rookie. When was the last time a Bills rookie QB lost as many games? Never.

If you want to compare your rookie quarterback to Peyton Manning, then you should turn in your "realist" membership card and just proclaim yourself as a true asswipe.

You have a reading comprehension problem.
1) you were the one to bringing up and thus compare Manning's rookie year.

2)you infered that Payton played very poorly as a rookie which is not true. I clearly won that argument.

2) Payton's win/loss rookie record was 3 wins but the following season he won 13 games! Plus you forgot to mention that he was the #1 overall pick which means the Colts sucked pretty bad. When was the last time the Bills picked #1 overall?
Did they ever have a #1 overall rookie QB take over the worst team in football? Nope. Do you think there is a chance in her EJ leads Bills to 13 wins in their second year? (Remember Colts were worst when Manning got there)

3) you assumed that my question was directed at Bills rookies only. It wasn't. When was the last time a Bills QB threw for 26TDs Period. It's been a very long time.

The problem with a homer like yourself is that you can't see through the eyes of a realist. It's uncomprehendable to you. It's akin to you speaking Sanskrit tomorrow.

[Mike]

Now there is a realist's question, because it's objective, measured, and completely fair. Compare somebody who is in the discussion of the best QB in history to any rookie...uh-huh.

You know, you may want to check and see if there was even a single Bills quarterback that strictly started from the get-go as a rookie in the whole history of the team since the merger. I'm pretty sure that there is only a couple...there was Jim Kelly, who had experience in the USFL before his "rookie" season...so the whole "rookie" label may be a little tainted in that instance. And there was also Dennis Shaw, who was named Offensive Rookie of the Year the very year the merger happened.

Also, there is only ONE single quarterback that threw as many TDs as Manning as a rookie for ANY team, and that's Russell Wilson. Cam Newton holds the record for most overall TDs though: 21 passing and 14 rushing.

Peyton Manning also threw more interceptions as a rookie than anybody else did. When was the last time a Bill's rookie QB threw for more interceptions that Peyton Manning did, superior realist? I'm pretty sure that he holds the record for most LOSSES by a rookie QB that played all of the games too. The guy lost 13 games as a rookie. Troy Aikman didn't lose as many games; he only lost 11...but he didn't win a single game a rookie.

Again, Peyton Manning won THREE games a rookie. When was the last time a Bills rookie QB lost as many games? Never.

If you want to compare your rookie quarterback to Peyton Manning, then you should turn in your "realist" membership card and just proclaim yourself as a true asswipe.

Lol. You don't think it's fair to compare EJ to Manning. Poor baby.

That's such a turd comment. If you feel that way than EJ is not your guy. Send him back to FSU & get a real QB because in the NFL they have to COMPETE against each other. They are both -presumably- trying to win an SB. Of course they have to compare, and when they so they will be compared.


Your acting if EJ is some pewee QB that needs protection & how dare you compare him & his first year to Payton's 1 st year. Poor EJ, he doest muster up.

Well in the real world they are competing vs each other and for the next 15 years guys like Russel Wilson, Luck, et al will be eating EJ's lunch because he doesn't compare well, he's not good enough, and he is not a Manning or a Luck or a Wilson.

- - - Updated - - -


Now there is a realist's question, because it's objective, measured, and completely fair. Compare somebody who is in the discussion of the best QB in history to any rookie...uh-huh.

You know, you may want to check and see if there was even a single Bills quarterback that strictly started from the get-go as a rookie in the whole history of the team since the merger. I'm pretty sure that there is only a couple...there was Jim Kelly, who had experience in the USFL before his "rookie" season...so the whole "rookie" label may be a little tainted in that instance. And there was also Dennis Shaw, who was named Offensive Rookie of the Year the very year the merger happened.

Also, there is only ONE single quarterback that threw as many TDs as Manning as a rookie for ANY team, and that's Russell Wilson. Cam Newton holds the record for most overall TDs though: 21 passing and 14 rushing.

Peyton Manning also threw more interceptions as a rookie than anybody else did. When was the last time a Bill's rookie QB threw for more interceptions that Peyton Manning did, superior realist? I'm pretty sure that he holds the record for most LOSSES by a rookie QB that played all of the games too. The guy lost 13 games as a rookie. Troy Aikman didn't lose as many games; he only lost 11...but he didn't win a single game a rookie.

Again, Peyton Manning won THREE games a rookie. When was the last time a Bills rookie QB lost as many games? Never.

If you want to compare your rookie quarterback to Peyton Manning, then you should turn in your "realist" membership card and just proclaim yourself as a true asswipe.

Lol. You don't think it's fair to compare EJ to Manning. Poor baby.

That's such a turd comment. If you feel that way than EJ is not your guy. Send him back to FSU & get a real QB because in the NFL they have to COMPETE against each other. They are both -presumably- trying to win an SB. Of course they have to compare, and when they so they will be compared.


Your acting if EJ is some pewee QB that needs protection & how dare you compare him & his first year to Payton's 1 st year. Poor EJ, he doest muster up.

Well in the real world they are competing vs each other and for the next 15 years guys like Russel Wilson, Luck, et al will be eating EJ's lunch because he doesn't compare well, he's not good enough, and he is not a Manning or a Luck or a Wilson.

[YardRat]

2) Payton's win/loss rookie record was 3 wins but the following season he won 13 games! Plus you forgot to mention that he was the #1 overall pick which means the Colts sucked pretty bad. When was the last time the Bills picked #1 overall?
Did they ever have a #1 overall rookie QB take over the worst team in football? Nope. Do you think there is a chance in her EJ leads Bills to 13 wins in their second year? (Remember Colts were worst when Manning got there)

They also slid to 10-6 and then 6-10 the following two seasons...pretty confident that after his first four seasons and the trend downward in wins/losses, Colt 'realists' were 'logically' concluding that Manning wasn't the answer and the team needed to draft a QB.

[feldspar]

You have a reading comprehension problem.
1) you were the one to bringing up and thus compare Manning's rookie year.

LOL, I have a reading comprehension problem...and not you. I was NOT the one to bring up Manning's rookie year at all. Go back and check, partner.


2)you infered that Payton played very poorly as a rookie which is not true. I clearly won that argument.

Again, I never inferred that Peyton played poorly as a rookie. Somebody else brought up how he threw so many TDs as a rookie, and I presented different stats.

Nice job winning an argument with me that never actually happened, realist.


2) Payton's win/loss rookie record was 3 wins but the following season he won 13 games! Plus you forgot to mention that he was the #1 overall pick which means the Colts sucked pretty bad. When was the last time the Bills picked #1 overall?

My superior reading comprehension abilities tells me that this is the second #2 in your ordered list.

I understand that Manning went to a ****ty team, but the Colts made the playoffs the year BEFORE they had their 3-13 season that enabled them to get Manning, so it's not like they were THAT dismal roster-wise...look at what happened to the Falcons this year. It's been a while since the Bills picked #1 overall, but the Bills picked #3 overall a few years back, and they only had ONE fewer loss than Indy did the year they got Manning.


Did they ever have a #1 overall rookie QB take over the worst team in football? Nope. Do you think there is a chance in her EJ leads Bills to 13 wins in their second year? (Remember Colts were worst when Manning got there)

I think that Peyton Manning is one of the best quarterbacks to ever play the game. That's what I think. I think that if the Bills had someone like him, they'd obviously be contenders. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand the importance of a franchise QB to your team, much less a first ballot consensus Hall of Fame quarterback.

And there are only a couple of QBs in the league that you can even put in the same sentence as Peyton Manning, so it's pretty stupid to compare your QB to him, if not a dishonest way to put somebody down. There are plenty of other valid reasons to put EJ down without resorting to this.


3) you assumed that my question was directed at Bills rookies only. It wasn't. When was the last time a Bills QB threw for 26TDs Period. It's been a very long time.

I'll give you that. The question wasn't directed at Bills rookies only.

But if you really want to go ape-**** over that stat, I would remind you that TD-to-INT ratio is the more important aspect. There are a lot of variables that play in as well, which I won't get into.


The problem with a homer like yourself is that you can't see through the eyes of a realist. It's uncomprehendable to you. It's akin to you speaking Sanskrit tomorrow.

I'm not a homer, but I enjoy homers.

I just dislike your attitude tremendously, and it's because of ridiculous statements like this.

[feldspar]

Lol. You don't think it's fair to compare EJ to Manning. Poor baby.


**** you, Mike.

[Mike]

They also slid to 10-6 and then 6-10 the following two seasons...pretty confident that after his first four seasons and the trend downward in wins/losses, Colt 'realists' were 'logically' concluding that Manning wasn't the answer and the team needed to draft a QB.

Lol. That's you thinking like a homer. Look at Russel Wilson now, many of the homers on this board downplay his achomishments. It's the homer thing to do, look at things as if they were in a vacuum.

[Mike]

**** you, Mike.

At one point, it was fun coming on this board and talking football. Many of the posters were knowledgable and reasonable. Now it seems that there're is no real football discussion. Just 2 groups with wildly different opinions.

The homers most often defend and take the Bills side regardless of what they do and god forbid you criticize them. When the Bills drafted Maybin, hired DJ, drafting Whitner over DT, hiring Chan Gaily, the Homers argued we should give benefit of doubt. Three years later, they scapegoat the coach & claim they knew all along that he was a poor choice.


We can't agree on how poorly a team that hasn't made it to playoffs for 15 years is. A number of them believe the Bills are a good team on the verge of playoffs & beyond. And every year, at least one homer predicts 19-0.

[YardRat]

Lol. That's you thinking like a homer. Look at Russel Wilson now, many of the homers on this board downplay his achomishments. It's the homer thing to do, look at things as if they were in a vacuum.

Yes because 'realists' understand the Seahawks are all about the QB, and their defense had nothing to do with their championship.

[Jan Reimers]

Well, we should get rid of Manuel right now. After all, these talking heads are always right.

[alohabillsfan]

And that's why cassserly is no longer a Gm, smh he could only come up with 7!!! Rofl!

[feldspar]

At one point, it was fun coming on this board and talking football. Many of the posters were knowledgable and reasonable. Now it seems that there're is no real football discussion. Just 2 groups with wildly different opinions.

The homers most often defend and take the Bills side regardless of what they do and god forbid you criticize them. When the Bills drafted Maybin, hired DJ, drafting Whitner over DT, hiring Chan Gaily, the Homers argued we should give benefit of doubt. Three years later, they scapegoat the coach & claim they knew all along that he was a poor choice.


We can't agree on how poorly a team that hasn't made it to playoffs for 15 years is. A number of them believe the Bills are a good team on the verge of playoffs & beyond. And every year, at least one homer predicts 19-0.

If you want to talk about football, then talk about football.

If you want to patronize and attack other posters in a condescending matter, then I'll tell you where to go. I don't care WHAT you say if you are going to take that attitude. If you're not having fun posting here, then don't do it. I won't miss you. Your stereotypes are ridiculous. YOU are the one drawing an arbitrary line in the sand, and not anybody else. If I want to have some douche-bag school me about the nature of reality, I think I'd rather slit my wrists instead.

Grow up.

If somebody wants to give Doug Marrone and Doug Whaley the benefit of the doubt, for example, why should you have a problem with that to the point of insult? You got a problem, pal.

[Mike]

Yes because 'realists' understand the Seahawks are all about the QB, and their defense had nothing to do with their championship.

Exactly you look at things in a vacuum. That defense is killer and helped them win the SB, but the way Wilson played on that game - keeping the chains moving, throwing TDs- also plaid a mojor role. And by the way, without Wilson, Seattle doesn't even go to SB, they loose to SF in championship game.

Homer downplaying the Best Start a QB has ever Had to a Career.

Name 1 QB that accomplished more in his first 2 Seasons. Name 1!

[Mike]

If you want to talk about football, then talk about football.

If you want to patronize and attack other posters in a condescending matter, then I'll tell you where to go. I don't care WHAT you say if you are going to take that attitude. If you're not having fun posting here, then don't do it. I won't miss you. Your stereotypes are ridiculous. YOU are the one drawing an arbitrary line in the sand, and not anybody else. If I want to have some douche-bag school me about the nature of reality, I think I'd rather slit my wrists instead.

Grow up.

If somebody wants to give Doug Marrone and Doug Whaley the benefit of the doubt, for example, why should you have a problem with that to the point of insult? You got a problem, pal.


You sound like an old man having a problem because someone on the internet doesn't agree with you.

Poor baby, I compared your EJ to Manning and you didn't think it was fair because EJ is not good enough.

You still can't call a spade a spade. When's the last time a Bills QB threw for 26TDs?

[feldspar]

You sound like an old man having a problem because someone on the internet doesn't agree with you.

Poor baby, I compared your EJ to Manning and you didn't think it was fair because EJ is not good enough.

You still can't call a spade a spade. When's the last time a Bills QB threw for 26TDs?

And you sound like an arrogant *******. I'm not actually upset, and what I'm doing here is EXACTLY calling a spade a spade. You are an arrogant douche. That's what I call being a realist.

Kind of unbelievable that you would accuse others of having a problem with those that disagree with them, because that's the problem YOU have, and that's why we're having this particular discussion in the first place. Somebody thinks differently and you start calling them all sorts of names and try to belittle them...then you have the audacity to wonder why somebody else would not take kindly to that...that is if you ever even thought that one through, which you obviously haven't.

[Mike]

And you sound like an arrogant *******. I'm not actually upset, and what I'm doing here is EXACTLY calling a spade a spade. You are an arrogant douche. That's what I call being a realist.

Kind of unbelievable that you would accuse others of having a problem with those that disagree with them, because that's the problem YOU have, and that's why we're having this particular discussion in the first place. Somebody thinks differently and you start calling them all sorts of names and try to belittle them...then you have the audacity to wonder why somebody else would not take kindly to that...that is if you ever even thought that one through, which you obviously haven't.

You said: 'someone thinks differently..' Then you go on to call me a 'douche.' for disagreeing with you.


You still won't answer the question!

When was last time a Bills QB threw for 26TDs?

[feldspar]

You said: 'someone thinks differently..' Then you go on to call me a 'douche.' for disagreeing with you.


You still won't answer the question!

When was last time a Bills QB threw for 26TDs?

I called you a douche because that is what you are. I didn't call you a douche for disagreeing with me about anything. In fact, we really haven't talked about much except of how much of a douche I think you truely are. And that has absolutely NOTHING to do with whatever it is you think about the Bills. Keep that in mind. I disagree with people being douches.

What's the difference when the last time a Bills QB threw for 26 TDs? What point are you trying to make? If you are saying that the Bills have been sorely lacking the QB department for years, well then no **** Sherlock. That's been right at the top of the list as the reasons why the Bills haven't been good.

[sudzy]

I don't know about 7, but, I bet there are 4 QBs in this draft that are better then EJ. Let's force a 1st round QB choice in one of the worst QB drafts and then wonder why this team hasn't made the playoffs.

[swiper]

I don't know about 7, but, I bet there are 4 QBs in this draft that are better then EJ. Let's force a 1st round QB choice in one of the worst QB drafts and then wonder why this team hasn't made the playoffs.


Some of us get that.

[better days]

I don't know about 7, but, I bet there are 4 QBs in this draft that are better then EJ. Let's force a 1st round QB choice in one of the worst QB drafts and then wonder why this team hasn't made the playoffs.

OK, name your 4 QB's that you think are better than EJ.

At the end of the year we can compare & see who had the better year

[better days]

I just read on profootballtalk.com that the stock of the top QB's is dropping.

The Bills could have their pick of the best QB in the draft again this year if that is true.

I would not mind if the Bills draft a QB at #9 if they think he has more potential than EJ does, but I don't think that will be the case.

[Bill Cody]

I don't know about 7, but, I bet there are 4 QBs in this draft that are better then EJ. Let's force a 1st round QB choice in one of the worst QB drafts and then wonder why this team hasn't made the playoffs.

We needed a QB! The stands would have been empty with another year of Fitz. Whether we overdrafted Manuel will all depend on if he pans out and he still may. We wanted first choice on a QB and we even picked up an extra 2nd by trading down. If Manuel busts he busts, lots of QB's taken before 16 do. So what? Picking the right QB is the most difficult and essential job a team has. I'm not mad we tried and maybe whiffed on Manuel. I'm more mad we passed on Kaepernick and Wilson. And I'd be brave enough to take another at 9 if we think he has more potential than Manuel. The idea that he draft is a real science is laughable. Tom Brady went in the 6th round. Joe Montana went in the 3rd round. Ryan Leaf went 2nd overall. It ain't easy.

[EDS]

We needed a QB! The stands would have been empty with another year of Fitz. Whether we overdrafted Manuel will all depend on if he pans out and he still may. We wanted first choice on a QB and we even picked up an extra 2nd by trading down. If Manuel busts he busts, lots of QB's taken before 16 do. So what? Picking the right QB is the most difficult and essential job a team has. I'm not mad we tried and maybe whiffed on Manuel. I'm more mad we passed on Kaepernick and Wilson. And I'd be brave enough to take another at 9 if we think he has more potential than Manuel. The idea that he draft is a real science is laughable. Tom Brady went in the 6th round. Joe Montana went in the 3rd round. Ryan Leaf went 2nd overall. It ain't easy.

Obviously the Bills had to draft a QB in 2013. I think the other obvious point, however, is that QB was a critical need for at least the past 5 years (every since Losman was pushed aside) and the fact that the front office did nothing to address the position for years and then tied/forced their own hand into absolutely needing to draft a QB in a down year for QB prospects, was a mistake.

The team should have been actively looking for a young QB long before the 2013 draft and the fact that there are several very successful young QBs who were not top 10 picks, or even first rounders (Wilson, Kaepernick, Dalton, Foles, etc.), is what causes many Bills fans some angst.

[Bill Cody]

Obviously the Bills had to draft a QB in 2013. I think the other obvious point, however, is that QB was a critical need for at least the past 5 years (every since Losman was pushed aside) and the fact that the front office did nothing to address the position for years and then tied/forced their own hand into absolutely needing to draft a QB in a down year for QB prospects, was a mistake.

The team should have been actively looking for a young QB long before the 2013 draft and the fact that there are several very successful young QBs who were not top 10 picks, or even first rounders (Wilson, Kaepernick, Dalton, Foles, etc.), is what causes many Bills fans some angst.

It wasn't that they weren't actively looking. They admitted they were looking. What they did was pass on a couple real talents. But that's over and done with. If we spent out time gnashing teeth over Bills draft blunders we'd have no time to suck air. I'm not giving the Bills a pass, just pointing out what should be obvious that the draft is not easy. Charlie Casserly sure knows this.

[EDS]

It wasn't that they weren't actively looking. They admitted they were looking. What they did was pass on a couple real talents. But that's over and done with. If we spent out time gnashing teeth over Bills draft blunders we'd have no time to suck air. I'm not giving the Bills a pass, just pointing out what should be obvious that the draft is not easy. Charlie Casserly sure knows this.

I don't think it was at all apparent that they were actively looking. They made no attempts to draft anyone and did not bring in legitimate development guys either. It is not like they drafted Colt McCoy and then figured out he was not the answer - the problem was they did not even swing the bat.

They blew it and put themsevles in the absolute worst position to be in. That is why they should not hestiate to bring in a 3rd or 4th round guy this year.

[Bill Cody]

I don't think it was at all apparent that they were actively looking. They made no attempts to draft anyone and did not bring in legitimate development guys either. It is not like they drafted Colt McCoy and then figured out he was not the answer - the problem was they did not even swing the bat.

They blew it and put themsevles in the absolute worst position to be in. That is why they should not hestiate to bring in a 3rd or 4th round guy this year.

They said point blank they wanted a franchise QB and they were very interested in Cam Newton. Passing on players doesn't mean you don't want a QB, exhibit A Blaine Gabbert. They just weren't sold on guys that were out there.

[EDS]

They said point blank they wanted a franchise QB and they were very interested in Cam Newton. Passing on players doesn't mean you don't want a QB, exhibit A Blaine Gabbert. They just weren't sold on guys that were out there.

Saying they are intersted in the #1 overall pick is pretty meaningless. I am sure they were interested in Andrew Luck too, but since they did not put themselves in position to get him they needed to have an alternative plan in place and they failed to do that over a multi-year period.

[better days]

Saying they are intersted in the #1 overall pick is pretty meaningless. I am sure they were interested in Andrew Luck too, but since they did not put themselves in position to get him they needed to have an alternative plan in place and they failed to do that over a multi-year period.

Agreed & that is the biggest failure by Nix as a GM.

But now Whaley is the GM, so he can't be blamed for the failure of Nix.

If EJ is a bust & Whaley passes on a QB that turns out to be a franchise QB, then Whaley can be blamed for that.

[Mike]

OK, name your 4 QB's that you think are better than EJ.

At the end of the year we can compare & see who had the better year

This is EJs second year & you like to talk about how huge that is, so your planing on comparing rookie years.

See who had better rookie years or 1st year as starter in case they sit.

I give you a couple right here:

At least one of these guys will be better than EJ this year:

Johnny Manziel
Teddy Bridgewater
Derek Carr
Bottles
Zack Mettennerger

- if they were in last years draft, do you honestly think EJ would have been 1st QB taken?

EJ wasn't even the best QB on his own team much less all of college!

Personally I think EJ will be what he has always been. A physically gifted QB that doesn't have 'it'. Some up games some down games, but not nearly enough to compete with the Manning's, Brady's, Rogers of this world.

Johnny Football on the other hand has 'it' in buckets! Either he totally flops or is a superstar and at least he has that potential which is more than I can say about EJ.

[WagonCircler]

This is EJs second year & you like to talk about how huge that is, so your planing on comparing rookie years.

See who had better rookie years or 1st year as starter in case they sit.

I give you a couple right here:

At least one of these guys will be better than EJ this year:

Johnny Manziel
Teddy Bridgewater
Derek Carr
Bottles
Zack Mettennerger

- if they were in last years draft, do you honestly think EJ would have been 1st QB taken?

EJ wasn't even the best QB on his own team much less all of college!

Personally I think EJ will be what he has always been. A physically gifted QB that doesn't have 'it'. Some up games some down games, but not nearly enough to compete with the Manning's, Brady's, Rogers of this world.

Johnny Football on the other hand has 'it' in buckets! Either he totally flops or is a superstar and at least he has that potential which is more than I can say about EJ.

I agree with most of this, but I'm not sure I'd call EJ physically gifted. I guess it depends on how you define the term. Maybe athletically gifted, but even then, is he really?

He's an OK runner, but not by any means an elite runner, like Kaepernick, for instance. And he's very careless with the football when running.

And I would define physically gifted to include someone with highly developed accuracy, and he doesn't even qualify to be called acceptably accurate. Piss poor would be a better description. Sure, his numbers on Trent Edwards style passes are decent, but once you get more than 15 yards downfield he's pissing into the wind.

I think you probably mean that he looks the part, and has good arm strength (accuracy notwithstanding) I would agree with that.

The thing that I'm so troubled by is that the Bills seem so willing to gamble on a guy with two bad knees who has such limited upside.

I'm hoping that Whaley is smoke screening, but the Bills so often disappoint on draft day, I'm expecting the worst.

Same as it ever was.

[Bill Cody]

Saying they are intersted in the #1 overall pick is pretty meaningless. I am sure they were interested in Andrew Luck too, but since they did not put themselves in position to get him they needed to have an alternative plan in place and they failed to do that over a multi-year period.

They were picking 3rd and it was not at all clear for a long time that Newton would be chosen number one- most here did not even want him at 3. You don't know what discussions were made to move up either. The Luck mention is just silly, we weren't picking near #1 that year

[Bill Cody]

Agreed & that is the biggest failure by Nix as a GM.

Not if Manuel succeeds

[justasportsfan]

I agree with most of this, but I'm not sure I'd call EJ physically gifted. I guess it depends on how you define the term. Maybe athletically gifted, but even then, is he really?

He's an OK runner, but not by any means an elite runner, like Kaepernick, for instance. And he's very careless with the football when running.

And I would define physically gifted to include someone with highly developed accuracy, and he doesn't even qualify to be called acceptably accurate. Piss poor would be a better description. Sure, his numbers on Trent Edwards style passes are decent, but once you get more than 15 yards downfield he's pissing into the wind.

I think you probably mean that he looks the part, and has good arm strength (accuracy notwithstanding) I would agree with that.

The thing that I'm so troubled by is that the Bills seem so willing to gamble on a guy with two bad knees who has such limited upside.

I'm hoping that Whaley is smoke screening, but the Bills so often disappoint on draft day, I'm expecting the worst.

Same as it ever was.


I kept reading that a big reason we drafted EJ was because of his mobility which could help in running the read option. He sucked at it and kept handing the ball over. EJ plays scared. He's scared to throw the ball and he's scared to keep the ball. Thad was better running the read option.

I hope that all changes. Even if EJ plays average this year, I'd draft or sign an FA next year.

[stuckincincy]

I kept reading that a big reason we drafted EJ was because of his mobility which could help in running the read option. He sucked at it and kept handing the ball over. EJ plays scared. He's scared to throw the ball and he's scared to keep the ball. Thad was better running the read option.

I hope that all changes. Even if EJ plays average this year, I'd draft or sign an FA next year.

I have railed against it from day 1, rail now, and will continue to rail against that idiotic quick snap hurry-up monstrosity they cooked up last season. They touted it like the PR gimmick it was. If you want to run stuff like that, do it with a seasoned OL and QB, certainly not with a rookie qb who can just barely sniff out NFL defensive sets, let alone the trickery between OL set and the snap.

Conventional wisdom is that it takes time for a rookie to get used to "the speed of the NFL game." So they went ahead and made it even faster for Manuel. How dumb. :coocoo:

[better days]

This is EJs second year & you like to talk about how huge that is, so your planing on comparing rookie years.

See who had better rookie years or 1st year as starter in case they sit.

I give you a couple right here:

At least one of these guys will be better than EJ this year:

Johnny Manziel
Teddy Bridgewater
Derek Carr
Bottles
Zack Mettennerger

- if they were in last years draft, do you honestly think EJ would have been 1st QB taken?

EJ wasn't even the best QB on his own team much less all of college!

Personally I think EJ will be what he has always been. A physically gifted QB that doesn't have 'it'. Some up games some down games, but not nearly enough to compete with the Manning's, Brady's, Rogers of this world.

Johnny Football on the other hand has 'it' in buckets! Either he totally flops or is a superstar and at least he has that potential which is more than I can say about EJ.

Sure, we can compare Rookie years.

Who the hell is Bottles? Make my bottle a Molson Stock Ale.

Manziel could be Flutie like, but I doubt it & I expect him to get injured.

Bridgewater has already seen his stock drop. I don't expect him to be better than EJ.

If the Bills could get Mettenburger in the later rounds, I would like that. But he is coming off an injury, so I doubt he has a better rookie year than EJ.

And I wanted the Bills to draft Mike Glennon, not EJ. So don't think I am a huge EJ fan.

[EDS]

Sure, we can compare Rookie years.

Who the hell is Bottles? Make my bottle a Molson Stock Ale.

Manziel could be Flutie like, but I doubt it & I expect him to get injured.

Bridgewater has already seen his stock drop. I don't expect him to be better than EJ.

If the Bills could get Mettenburger in the later rounds, I would like that. But he is coming off an injury, so I doubt he has a better rookie year than EJ.

And I wanted the Bills to draft Mike Glennon, not EJ. So don't think I am a huge EJ fan.

It is interesting that it seems Tampa is benching or at least bringing in competition for Glennon, who arguably had a better rookie year than EJ.

[better days]

It is interesting that it seems Tampa is benching or at least bringing in competition for Glennon, who arguably had a better rookie year than EJ.

New HC who knows the QB he brought in, coming off a good year as well.

Hopefully, Glennon can learn from Josh McCown & improve his game.

[justasportsfan]

I have railed against it from day 1, rail now, and will continue to rail against that idiotic quick snap hurry-up monstrosity they cooked up last season. They touted it like the PR gimmick it was. If you want to run stuff like that, do it with a seasoned OL and QB, certainly not with a rookie qb who can just barely sniff out NFL defensive sets, let alone the trickery between OL set and the snap.

Conventional wisdom is that it takes time for a rookie to get used to "the speed of the NFL game." So they went ahead and made it even faster for Manuel. How dumb. :coocoo:

They must have thought EJ could run it as well as Rusell Wilson could . They didn't realize how RAW Ej was.

[WagonCircler]

They must have thought EJ could run it as well as Rusell Wilson could . They didn't realize how RAW Ej was.

EJ is totally raw.

Wilson is infinitely better suited to running that Offense. He is not just a gifted athlete, but gifted skill player. He's a 2nd baseman who can throw from freakish arm angles while running, jumping or doing his taxes.

EJ throws worm burners on screen passes. He hasn't even mastered the seven step drop. His footwork is atrocious, and he doesn't have the accuracy to overcome it.

[sudzy]

OK, name your 4 QB's that you think are better than EJ.

At the end of the year we can compare & see who had the better year

Manziel, Bortles, Carr, Bridgewater

[Mike]

Sure, we can compare Rookie years.

Who the hell is Bottles? Make my bottle a Molson Stock Ale.

Manziel could be Flutie like, but I doubt it & I expect him to get injured.

Bridgewater has already seen his stock drop. I don't expect him to be better than EJ.

If the Bills could get Mettenburger in the later rounds, I would like that. But he is coming off an injury, so I doubt he has a better rookie year than EJ.

And I wanted the Bills to draft Mike Glennon, not EJ. So don't think I am a huge EJ fan.


Did you want EJ last year, was he your first choice?
Who do you want from this years draft?

[better days]

Did you want EJ last year, was he your first choice?
Who do you want from this years draft?

Did you not read the post you responded to?

I said in that post that I wanted the Bills to draft Mike Glennon, not EJ.

This year I want an OT in the first rnd, Matthews if he is there.

Or if Mack should fall to 9 I would be happy with him.

If the Bills could trade back a little, I would take Ebron.

[Mike]

Did you not read the post you responded to?

I said in that post that I wanted the Bills to draft Mike Glennon, not EJ.

This year I want an OT in the first rnd, Matthews if he is there.

Or if Mack should fall to 9 I would be happy with him.

If the Bills could trade back a little, I would take Ebron.

So there is not one QB in this draft class you would take over EJ?

[YardRat]

Exactly you look at things in a vacuum. That defense is killer and helped them win the SB, but the way Wilson played on that game - keeping the chains moving, throwing TDs- also plaid a mojor role. And by the way, without Wilson, Seattle doesn't even go to SB, they loose to SF in championship game.

Homer downplaying the Best Start a QB has ever Had to a Career.

Name 1 QB that accomplished more in his first 2 Seasons. Name 1!

Seriously? Big Ben went to a conference final his rookie year, and won the Super Bowl his second season. The Steelers also won 26 reg season games those two seasons, more than Seattle. The point you continue to ignore is neither one of them did it on their own, and both had great supporting casts.

[BB4ever]

Ej is not the answer. He had multiple injuries in college, non throwing shoulder, high ankle sprain, concussion, broken leg. He only played 2 full season and filled in for ponder when he was injured. He hasnt fixed any any of the bad habits he's had since day one when he played qb for the noles. Couple this with his inconsistency playing and winning against big teams in college and knowing that a true redshirt freshman took that same fsu team to the top of the mountain and back destroying opponets after ej left = mediocre at best ej manuel. So i predict 2 of those qbs will have better rookie years than ej (teddy/j footbal) and bortles will at least play as well as ej.

[Mike]

Seriously? Big Ben went to a conference final his rookie year, and won the Super Bowl his second season. The Steelers also won 26 reg season games those two seasons, more than Seattle. The point you continue to ignore is neither one of them did it on their own, and both had great supporting casts.

Big Ben did NOT have a better start to his career:
Did he have 100+ rating in each of his first 2 seasons in NFL? Nope.
Have no name WR? Nope.
Throw for 52 TDs? Nope.

You keep changing how you evaluate a QB and for some strange reason you expect a QB to win a SB by themselves. I have a news flash for you, no QB will ever win a SB by themselves. Marino could not do it, others have failed as well.

If YOUR definition of a great QB is someone who wins a SBs without a supporting cast & has great stats, then your all alone. This magical being only exists in your imagination and farry tales you tell yourself.

[The Jokeman]

I kept reading that a big reason we drafted EJ was because of his mobility which could help in running the read option. He sucked at it and kept handing the ball over. EJ plays scared. He's scared to throw the ball and he's scared to keep the ball. Thad was better running the read option.

I hope that all changes. Even if EJ plays average this year, I'd draft or sign an FA next year.
Imagine that Thad, who's been in the NFL since 2010 was better than a rookie EJ. Yet somehow we score more points per game with the rookie QB. I know the easy thing is bash EJ because he wasn't as great as Andrew Luck/RGIII/Russell Wilson were as rookies but he was as good as Tannehill was as a rookie in 2013. The only thing that scared me about EJ's play was his injuries. I'll agree he looked bad against the Jets, Tampa and the Steelers but you know what? Geno Smith and Mike Glennon looked bad as rookies too but their respective teams brought in veterans to compete/take over the starting positions in 2014 and the Bills didn't. Time will tell if it was a wise decision but to me I like it as one thing this team hasn't done in real long time is develop a QB. In fact the only time we did was with #12 and no I don't mean Kelly but I mean Ferguson, and you know what? We made the playoffs with him, true he was more of a game manager then great QB but you know what? I wouldn't say Wilson was great last year and he still won a Super Bowl.

[EDS]

Imagine that Thad, who's been in the NFL since 2010 was better than a rookie EJ. Yet somehow we score more points per game with the rookie QB. I know the easy thing is bash EJ because he wasn't as great as Andrew Luck/RGIII/Russell Wilson were as rookies but he was as good as Tannehill was as a rookie in 2013. The only thing that scared me about EJ's play was his injuries. I'll agree he looked bad against the Jets, Tampa and the Steelers but you know what? Geno Smith and Mike Glennon looked bad as rookies too but their respective teams brought in veterans to compete/take over the starting positions in 2014 and the Bills didn't. Time will tell if it was a wise decision but to me I like it as one thing this team hasn't done in real long time is develop a QB. In fact the only time we did was with #12 and no I don't mean Kelly but I mean Ferguson, and you know what? We made the playoffs with him, true he was more of a game manager then great QB but you know what? I wouldn't say Wilson was great last year and he still won a Super Bowl.

I have seen people make the point that Russell Wilson was not great this past season. I wonder, by what measure do you make that determination? He was almost at the magical 3:1 touchdown to interception ratio, averaged over 8 yards per pass attempt, won a ton of games and added solid value as a runner (over 500 yards). That said, his completion percentage was below 65%, he got sacked a bunch and he did not pass for a metric ton of yardage per game. Are those the points to suggest he was not an elite QB last season?

[The Jokeman]

I have seen people make the point that Russell Wilson was not great this past season. I wonder, by what measure do you make that determination? He was almost at the magical 3:1 touchdown to interception ratio, averaged over 8 yards per pass attempt, won a ton of games and added solid value as a runner (over 500 yards). That said, his completion percentage was below 65%, he got sacked a bunch and he did not pass for a metric ton of yardage per game. Are those the points to suggest he was not an elite QB last season?
What I see is Wilson had eight games in which he had only 1 or 0 TD passes each, his team won 6 of those games. He benefitted from having an above average running team and great D to help him out. Truth is he played well but again not elite and to me it just hammers home to me that you don't need an elite QB to win every week but an elite team which the Seahawks were.

[chris66]

Russell Wilson is like that clutch hitter. he might not get a hit every time, but when you need one he comes through. EJ is the hitter that goes 2 for 20 with runners in scoring position.

[EDS]

What I see is Wilson had eight games in which he had only 1 or 0 TD passes each, his team won 6 of those games. He benefitted from having an above average running team and great D to help him out. Truth is he played well but again not elite and to me it just hammers home to me that you don't need an elite QB to win every week but an elite team which the Seahawks were.

Those are all fair points. On the running game, however, is it really a great running game? Their offensive line was ravaged by injury. Lynch only averaged 4.2 yards per carry last season, and his primary back-up only 3.4 yards per carry. But for Wilson's own running ability (which I think has to be taken into account when considering his overall production/contributions) their aggregate season rushing totals would not look so good.

If you compare Wilson's first two seasons to Big Ben's, Wilson is better at almost everything. Obviously you need to take into account the shift towards a more passing focused game to account for some of the differences, but Big Ben is going to go to the Hall of Fame and Wilson merely has to maintain his current level of play to do the same. That is not a foregone conclusion at all, but it does put his performance into perspective.

[better days]

So there is not one QB in this draft class you would take over EJ?

I would take a flyer on Mettenburger or Carr in the later rnds, but I don't think Manziel, Bridgewater or Bortles will amount to anything better than EJ.

[TedMock]

So Gil Brandt said EJ Manuel would still be a first rounder this year and Charlie Casserly says he'd be the 8th QB drafted. So, who's opinion on QB's do you trust more? I guess that's what it comes down to. Both spent a long time working in the NFL.

[better days]

So Gil Brandt said EJ Manuel would still be a first rounder this year and Charlie Casserly says he'd be the 8th QB drafted. So, who's opinion on QB's do you trust more? I guess that's what it comes down to. Both spent a long time working in the NFL.

I think a lot more of Gil Brandt than Charlie Casserly myself.

I enjoy listening to Brandt on Sirius radio.

[EDS]

So Gil Brandt said EJ Manuel would still be a first rounder this year and Charlie Casserly says he'd be the 8th QB drafted. So, who's opinion on QB's do you trust more? I guess that's what it comes down to. Both spent a long time working in the NFL.

Gil Brandt has Derek Carr identified as one of the top 25 prospects in this draft (4th QB overall) and Manziel as his top rated prospect in this draft (ahead of Clowney).

[better days]

Gil Brandt has Derek Carr identified as one of the top 25 prospects in this draft (4th QB overall) and Manziel as his top rated prospect in this draft (ahead of Clowney).

This is a terrible year to hold the first pick in the draft.

There is no sure fire can't miss prospect that screams to be drafted #1.

[TedMock]

Gil Brandt has Derek Carr identified as one of the top 25 prospects in this draft (4th QB overall) and Manziel as his top rated prospect in this draft (ahead of Clowney).

I really like Brandt, but I'm not as sold on Manziel as he is. I re-watched more of Manziel last week and still don't feel comfortable. I agree with him on Derek Carr being good and the 4th QB overall. Interestingly, Casserly drafted his brother, David Carr.

[EDS]

This is a terrible year to hold the first pick in the draft.

There is no sure fire can't miss prospect that screams to be drafted #1.

I like Clowney alot more than the prospects at the top of the draft last season!

[better days]

I like Clowney alot more than the prospects at the top of the draft last season!

Clowney has been called spoiled & lazy.

I think the biggest question about him is if he is willing to put in the work to be great or will he settle for being good.

[EDS]

Clowney has been called spoiled & lazy.

I think the biggest question about him is if he is willing to put in the work to be great or will he settle for being good.

Maybe, but I think just about anyone takes Clowney before Fisher/Joeckel/Jordan/etc.

[better days]

Maybe, but I think just about anyone takes Clowney before Fisher/Joeckel/Jordan/etc.

Maybe so, I just don't think any team will think Clowney is worth trading up to #1 for.

[Bill Cody]

So Gil Brandt said EJ Manuel would still be a first rounder this year and Charlie Casserly says he'd be the 8th QB drafted. So, who's opinion on QB's do you trust more? I guess that's what it comes down to. Both spent a long time working in the NFL.

In the end Manuel will prove it either way on the field. Opinions mean nothing.

[Bill Cody]

Clowney has been called spoiled & lazy.

I think the biggest question about him is if he is willing to put in the work to be great or will he settle for being good.

He pretty much coasted his senior year. All world talent. But he could end up being Albert Haynesworth. A guy you have to hold your nose to root for.

[mayotm]

In the end Manuel will prove it either way on the field. Opinions mean nothing.Exactly. The continued debate on this topic is pointless right now. Nothing is going to happen until September to sway people's opinion's one way or another.

[justasportsfan]

Imagine that Thad, who's been in the NFL since 2010 was better than a rookie EJ. Yet somehow we score more points per game with the rookie QB. I know the easy thing is bash EJ because he wasn't as great as Andrew Luck/RGIII/Russell Wilson were as rookies but he was as good as Tannehill was as a rookie in 2013. The only thing that scared me about EJ's play was his injuries. I'll agree he looked bad against the Jets, Tampa and the Steelers but you know what? Geno Smith and Mike Glennon looked bad as rookies too but their respective teams brought in veterans to compete/take over the starting positions in 2014 and the Bills didn't. Time will tell if it was a wise decision but to me I like it as one thing this team hasn't done in real long time is develop a QB. In fact the only time we did was with #12 and no I don't mean Kelly but I mean Ferguson, and you know what? We made the playoffs with him, true he was more of a game manager then great QB but you know what? I wouldn't say Wilson was great last year and he still won a Super Bowl.

Thad was an undrafted player. EJ was a first round pick and I expected more from him than I did even in comparison to THad who was undrafted .

I am not bashing EJ. I am making an observation from last year. I have never said EJ is and will bust. He has this year to get it and stop playing like Trentative .

I don't care to compare EJ to Glennon or Geno. I want to see EJ play like he has what it takes to be a franchise QB and would rather compare his progress to that of Russell Wilson because in the end it's about winning a superbowl. If EJ doesn't have what it takes to win a sb, don't care if we spent a 1st round draft on him. Pull the plug.

[stuckincincy]

Big Ben did NOT have a better start to his career:
Did he have 100+ rating in each of his first 2 seasons in NFL? Nope.
Have no name WR? Nope.
Throw for 52 TDs? Nope.

You keep changing how you evaluate a QB and for some strange reason you expect a QB to win a SB by themselves. I have a news flash for you, no QB will ever win a SB by themselves. Marino could not do it, others have failed as well.

If YOUR definition of a great QB is someone who wins a SBs without a supporting cast & has great stats, then your all alone. This magical being only exists in your imagination and farry tales you tell yourself.

Um...

..."As a rookie, he went 13-0 in the regular season (14–1 including playoffs) as a starting quarterback, helping the Steelers become the first AFC team to have 15 wins (2–1 under Maddox [first two and last game], 13–0 under Roethlisberger) in a single regular season, surpassing former Steeler Mike Kruczek for the record for the best start by a rookie (6-0) and exceeding the mark for total wins as a rookie, set by Chris Chandler and Joe Ferguson. On January 5, 2005, Roethlisberger was unanimously selected as the NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year by the Associated Press, the first quarterback in 34 years to be so honored."...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger

Then led PGH to a SB win in his 2nd season...


:violin:

[Bill Cody]

Um...

..."As a rookie, he went 13-0 in the regular season (14–1 including playoffs) as a starting quarterback, helping the Steelers become the first AFC team to have 15 wins (2–1 under Maddox [first two and last game], 13–0 under Roethlisberger) in a single regular season, surpassing former Steeler Mike Kruczek for the record for the best start by a rookie (6-0) and exceeding the mark for total wins as a rookie, set by Chris Chandler and Joe Ferguson. On January 5, 2005, Roethlisberger was unanimously selected as the NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year by the Associated Press, the first quarterback in 34 years to be so honored."...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger

Then led PGH to a SB win in his 2nd season...


:violin:

Mike you have just been pnowned

[DesertFox24]

I would actually argue that what the steelers did with Big Ben is what I think the Bills are trying to do with EJ.

Have a great defense and running game and ask your QB to manage the game while he develops.

Believe it or not this is what the Pats did when they won 3 super bowls under Brady. Brady got better and better every year and is what he is now.

[WagonCircler]

I would actually argue that what the steelers did with Big Ben is what I think the Bills are trying to do with EJ.

Have a great defense and running game and ask your QB to manage the game while he develops.

Believe it or not this is what the Pats did when they won 3 super bowls under Brady. Brady got better and better every year and is what he is now.

The problem is, EJ is nowhere near as good as Big Ben, and shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence with Brady.

Roeth makes ridiculous throws while falling to the ground, sideways, upside down...

EJ can't even throw accurate screen passes with no defenders near him.

If the Bills staff is that stupid, we have irreparable problems.

[swiper]

So Gil Brandt said EJ Manuel would still be a first rounder this year and Charlie Casserly says he'd be the 8th QB drafted. So, who's opinion on QB's do you trust more? I guess that's what it comes down to. Both spent a long time working in the NFL.

That's funny because he wasn't a sure first rounder last year.

[swiper]

Comparing 2013/2014 classes by position:


Top 2013 prospects: Geno Smith, West Virginia; EJ Manuel (http://bleacherreport.com/ej-manuel), Florida State; Mike Glennon, North Carolina State; Matt Barkley, USC; Ryan Nassib, Syracuse

Top 2014 prospects: Johnny Manziel, Texas A&M; Teddy Bridgewater, Louisville; Blake Bortles, UCF; Derek Carr, Fresno State; Tom Savage, Pittsburgh; Jimmy Garoppolo, Eastern Illinois; Aaron Murray, Georgia; AJ McCarron, Alabama

Remember when Ryan Nassib was talked about as a potential top-10 pick? Those were fun times.

The 2013 class of quarterbacks was not very good, and the ignoble characterization is magnified when the group is juxtaposed against the fantastic 2012 class. Comparing last year's lot to this year's prospects isn't much better.

Geno Smith was the top quarterback in the 2013 class. Then draft season hit.

Smith fell all the way out of the first round and into the lap of the New York Jets, and he wound up being arguably the most successful rookie starter. Of course, the definition of "success" for last year's class was set low—the Pro Football Focus (subscription required) ratings (https://www.profootballfocus.com/data/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2013&pos=QB&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=0&numgames=1) for rookie quarterbacks are ugly, and Smith was actually the worst in that regard.
Still, he started the most games and got the most wins.

This year's class is full of unknowns, but it's hard to believe only one quarterback will be taken in the first round, despite the polarization we have seen with the top prospects.

Teddy Bridgewater, in particular, seems to be in free fall. Size concerns and a disastrous (http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/article-1/Is-Teddy-Bridgewater%E2%80%99s-draft-stock-really-falling/6bf00dd4-3d8a-4e68-ab0a-4f5c7d1b8043) pro day seem to have sunk his draft stock. But will teams ignore all the great tape?

Then there is Johnny Manziel, who could go with the top pick overall or fall out of the first two rounds depending on whom you're asking. He is on the Russell Wilson (http://bleacherreport.com/russell-wilson) spectrum at under 6'0", but the dynamic quarterback is too good to fall too far, despite how he has been dissected during draft season.

Seemingly the only lock for a top pick at quarterback is Blake Bortles, who has prototypical combination of size and athleticism but needs more polish than his peers.

There are other intriguing options in this year's draft, too. It just seems so much better than last year's crop, though hindsight helps that assessment.

Verdict: 2014 class wins

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2027006-2013-vs-2014-position-by-position-nfl-draft-class-comparison/page/2

[swiper]

QUARTERBACKFLORIDA STATE

<tbody>
College Position:
Quarterback
<ins style="display: inline-table; border: none; height: 250px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; visibility: visible; width: 250px; background-color: transparent;"><ins id="aswift_0_anchor" style="display: block; border: none; height: 250px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; visibility: visible; width: 250px; background-color: transparent;"><iframe style="width: 250px" height="250" frameborder="0" marginwidth="0" marginheight="0" vspace="0" hspace="0" allowtransparency="true" scrolling="no" id="aswift_0" name="aswift_0"></iframe></ins></ins>


School:
Florida State (http://www.nfldraft101.com/ncaaf/schools/234/Florida_State.jsp)


Grade:
Senior


Height:
6-4


Weight:
240



Birthdate:
03-19-1990


Draft Projection:
Second


Overall Rank:
35


NFL Draft Position (Rank):
Quarterback (3)

</tbody>

[Mike]

Um...

..."As a rookie, he went 13-0 in the regular season (14–1 including playoffs) as a starting quarterback, helping the Steelers become the first AFC team to have 15 wins (2–1 under Maddox [first two and last game], 13–0 under Roethlisberger) in a single regular season, surpassing former Steeler Mike Kruczek for the record for the best start by a rookie (6-0) and exceeding the mark for total wins as a rookie, set by Chris Chandler and Joe Ferguson. On January 5, 2005, Roethlisberger was unanimously selected as the NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year by the Associated Press, the first quarterback in 34 years to be so honored."...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger

Then led PGH to a SB win in his 2nd season...


:violin:

To summerise your argument, your saying that Big Ben started of better because he won more games?

This sounds like your entire argument. No mention for personal stats (Wilson's are better) pro bowls. (Wilson went to more) etc...

Is you argument Big Ben>Wilson because of games won?

[DesertFox24]

The problem is, EJ is nowhere near as good as Big Ben, and shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence with Brady.

Roeth makes ridiculous throws while falling to the ground, sideways, upside down...

EJ can't even throw accurate screen passes with no defenders near him.

If the Bills staff is that stupid, we have irreparable problems.


No doubt you cannot compare EJ in his current form to Tom and Big Ben in their current form. What I am saying is that the steelers and Pats were able to hide their inexperienced QBs behind great def and great running game and asking him not to do to much. Tom Brady and Big Ben worked their rears off and become very good in Bens case and top 3 all time in Brady's case.

Do I think EJ is a HOF more than likely not, but if he works his butt off and gets better and better he will eventually be like those guys and have to carry the team on his shoulders due to his contract if he earns it.

In the mean time the Bills are surrounding him with talent and hopefully he progresses.

[justasportsfan]

I would draft Tom Savage if he drops to 4th.

[WagonCircler]

No doubt you cannot compare EJ in his current form to Tom and Big Ben in their current form. What I am saying is that the steelers and Pats were able to hide their inexperienced QBs behind great def and great running game and asking him not to do to much. Tom Brady and Big Ben worked their rears off and become very good in Bens case and top 3 all time in Brady's case.

Do I think EJ is a HOF more than likely not, but if he works his butt off and gets better and better he will eventually be like those guys and have to carry the team on his shoulders due to his contract if he earns it.

In the mean time the Bills are surrounding him with talent and hopefully he progresses.

I understand what you're saying, but the Steelers and Pats did with they did with their QBs because they could.

I don't think lack of work ethic is EJs problem. I like everything about EJ in the character department. I just don't think he has the natural mechanics or accuracy to be a consistent NFL QB. And that's not a work or desire issue. It's a talent issue.

I agree also that the Bills are acquiring some better players, I just think EJ is who he is, and that's not going to be good enough--ever.

I would have a plan B in full operation right now, if for no other reason than EJs knees. But there are plenty of other reasons.

[better days]

Comparing 2013/2014 classes by position:



http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2027006-2013-vs-2014-position-by-position-nfl-draft-class-comparison/page/2

It is too funny. So Bortles who needs more polish than EJ did/does is the only lock for a top pick yet the 2014 class wins?

And Mike Glennon had by far the best Rookie year last year. And I doubt anyone from this years class has a better Rookie year than Mike did.

[DesertFox24]

I understand what you're saying, but the Steelers and Pats did with they did with their QBs because they could.

I don't think lack of work ethic is EJs problem. I like everything about EJ in the character department. I just don't think he has the natural mechanics or accuracy to be a consistent NFL QB. And that's not a work or desire issue. It's a talent issue.

I agree also that the Bills are acquiring some better players, I just think EJ is who he is, and that's not going to be good enough--ever.

I would have a plan B in full operation right now, if for no other reason than EJs knees. But there are plenty of other reasons.

I understand your position. I am not at the point you are with his accuracy or ability to be a consistent QB, but after this year I will have made a decision.

To be honest I am still in the undecided category.

I am not excited for the season and I am not expecting to be picking first or be terrible. I do know that if we are going to the playoffs it is because of EJ.

I never played QB so I am not sure if some of his issues can be fixed. Nate Hackett said that his issues were all footwork related and that his accuracy can improve, at this point I can only take his word for it as I honestly do not know.

Time will tell.

To be truthful though I would not be surprised if we are picking another QB next year. As much as I want EJ to succeed and see the natural arm talent and ability I am just inclined to think everything buffalo does will fail. 14 years of no playoffs and constant FO and coach changes will make any optimist a pessimist.

Pretty crappy that I started looking at top 10 talent for 2015 draft so I know what college games to watch this year.

[GingerP]

I would draft Tom Savage if he drops to 4th.

He might go in the 1st. There is talk of it anyway. He has visited 24-25 teams and had to turn down more visits because he didn't have time. The NFL has invited him to NY for the draft, which usually means you are going in the 1st (though he hasn't decided whether to attend or not).

[swiper]

He might go in the 1st. There is talk of it anyway. He has visited 24-25 teams and had to turn down more visits because he didn't have time. The NFL has invited him to NY for the draft, which usually means you are going in the 1st (though he hasn't decided whether to attend or not).


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000342039/article/pitt-qb-tom-savage-has-chance-of-landing-atop-second-round

[swiper]

It is too funny. So Bortles who needs more polish than EJ did/does is the only lock for a top pick yet the 2014 class wins?

And Mike Glennon had by far the best Rookie year last year. And I doubt anyone from this years class has a better Rookie year than Mike did.

Yeah. Not going to defend someone else's opinion. I saw it and thought it was germane to this discussion so I posted it for discussion. That's all.

[BuffaloRedleg]

I have actually gone pretty cold on the QBs this year. Id rather have an EJ with a year under his belt than one of these guys.

I will say that football draft-time makes me basically a woman on her worst period. Everything I knew was logic a week ago is now governed by emotion, raw passion and random fits of ultra-violence.

The one small part of my brain that still works says that we need to draft that Metterbergerski or Murrayish in the 4+ area if they are still around.

[justasportsfan]

He might go in the 1st. There is talk of it anyway. He has visited 24-25 teams and had to turn down more visits because he didn't have time. The NFL has invited him to NY for the draft, which usually means you are going in the 1st (though he hasn't decided whether to attend or not).

:sadwalk:

[stuckincincy]

To summerise your argument, your saying that Big Ben started of better because he won more games?

This sounds like your entire argument. No mention for personal stats (Wilson's are better) pro bowls. (Wilson went to more) etc...

Is you argument Big Ben>Wilson because of games won?

Mike - yes - I believe wins, playoff appearances, and winning a SB counts much more than stats and accolades. Who hasn't daydreamed about what-ifs, if BUF had landed Ben R in the '04 draft?

[EDS]

Mike - yes - I believe wins, playoff appearances, and winning a SB counts much more than stats and accolades. Who hasn't daydreamed about what-ifs, if BUF had landed Ben R in the '04 draft?

Yeah, Wilson really hasn't done anything in his first two years as far as wins, playoff appearances and SBs . . .

This is nuts. Both enjoyed phenominal success their first two years.

[stuckincincy]

Yeah, Wilson really hasn't done anything in his first two years as far as wins, playoff appearances and SBs . . .

This is nuts. Both enjoyed phenominal success their first two years.

It has been 10 years or so. Many a rule change, designed to make the cash register ring. Who can think a player like Wilson would have prospered back then, in 2004, when Roethlisberger was a rookie out of the gate?

Wilson is a product of rule changes.

[Bill Cody]

To summerise your argument, your saying that Big Ben started of better because he won more games?

This sounds like your entire argument. No mention for personal stats (Wilson's are better) pro bowls. (Wilson went to more) etc...

Is you argument Big Ben>Wilson because of games won?

I think stats are way more important than wins or playoff appearances or dumb ol Super Bowls

Sincerely,

Tony Romo

[EDS]

It has been 10 years or so. Many a rule change, designed to make the cash register ring. Who can think a player like Wilson would have prospered back then, in 2004, when Roethlisberger was a rookie out of the gate?

Wilson is a product of rule changes.

I am confused, you say Rothlisberger was great his first two years because he won a bunch of games and a super bowl, but Wilson wins a bunch of games and a super bowl his first two seasons and he is a product of rule changes? How come those rule changes have not worked for the Bills?

[stuckincincy]

I am confused, you say Rothlisberger was great his first two years because he won a bunch of games and a super bowl, but Wilson wins a bunch of games and a super bowl his first two seasons and he is a product of rule changes? How come those rule changes have not worked for the Bills?


We are picked on?

[Mike]

Mike - yes - I believe wins, playoff appearances, and winning a SB counts much more than stats and accolades. Who hasn't daydreamed about what-ifs, if BUF had landed Ben R in the '04 draft?

We can agree, I'm sure, that both have had amazing starts to their career. Wilson, has actually won both more regular season and post season games. He also played a much bigger role in Seattle's thumping of Denver than Big Ben did vs - coincidently- Seattle. In fact, many observes site Big Bens, at best average play, during his first SB.

Here bellow are some Team Stats & Personal Stats:

"With a 43-8 Super Bowl victory on Sunday, Seattle Seahawks signal-caller Russell Wilson became the first quarterback in the Super Bowl era to win 28 games in his first two seasons. Wilson, who also holds the record for most regular-season victories (24) through two years, completed 18 of 25 passes (72 percent) for 206 yards and two touchdowns in his finest performance of the postseason Sunday

Before Wilson captured the records, Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger held both marks, with 27 total wins and 22 regular-season wins in his first two NFL seasons. Like Wilson, Roethlisberger led his team to the playoffs in each of his first two seasons, capping off the second run with a Super Bowl victory. While both quarterbacks benefited enormously from elite defenses, Wilson undoubtedly performed much better on the big stage.

Back in February 2006, Roethlisberger completed just nine of 21 passes for 123 yards and two interceptions in a Super Bowl XL win over the Seahawks that was widely remembered for sloppy play and poor officiating. Wilson had a much cleaner Super Bowl debut, averaging 8.2 yards per pass attempt without any sacks or interceptions."
http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/1948480-russell-wilson-sets-record-for-most-wins-through-two-seasons




---- He also has the personal accolades: NFL.Com

Career highlights and awards
-2× Pro Bowl (2012, 2013)
-NFC Champion (2013)
-Super Bowl champion (XLVIII)
-Pepsi NFL Rookie of the Year (2012)
-2× VIZIO Top Value Performer (2012, 2013)

-PFF Offensive Rookie of the Year (2012)[1]
-NFL Offensive Rookie of the Month (December 2012)
-2× NFC Offensive Player of the Week
-Pepsi NFL Rookie of the Week (Week 10, 2012)
-FedEx Air Player of the Week (Week 13, 2012)
-Steve Largent Award (2012)

Career NFL statistics as of Week 17,
2013
Completion % 63.6
TD–INT 52–19
Passing yards 6,475
Passer rating 100.6
Rushing yards 1,028
Rushing TDs 5
Stats at NFL.com


Russell had more to do with Seattle's Winning [Heck just check their record for 2 years before his arrival and since]. than he is given credit for and was a major factor in Seattle getting to & wining the SB. He also has done things personally & statistically no other QB has done in his first 2 years all without great weapons!

[Novacane]

At one point, it was fun coming on this board and talking football. Many of the posters were knowledgable and reasonable. Now it seems that there're is no real football discussion. Just 2 groups with wildly different opinions.

The homers most often defend and take the Bills side regardless of what they do and god forbid you criticize them. When the Bills drafted Maybin, hired DJ, drafting Whitner over DT, hiring Chan Gaily, the Homers argued we should give benefit of doubt. Three years later, they scapegoat the coach & claim they knew all along that he was a poor choice.


We can't agree on how poorly a team that hasn't made it to playoffs for 15 years is. A number of them believe the Bills are a good team on the verge of playoffs & beyond. And every year, at least one homer predicts 19-0.



You are just making stuff up now. Hardly anyone liked those moves.

[YardRat]

Big Ben did NOT have a better start to his career:
Did he have 100+ rating in each of his first 2 seasons in NFL? Nope.
Have no name WR? Nope.
Throw for 52 TDs? Nope.

You keep changing how you evaluate a QB and for some strange reason you expect a QB to win a SB by themselves. I have a news flash for you, no QB will ever win a SB by themselves. Marino could not do it, others have failed as well.

If YOUR definition of a great QB is someone who wins a SBs without a supporting cast & has great stats, then your all alone. This magical being only exists in your imagination and farry tales you tell yourself.

You're the one whining about a QB being 'everything'...obviously, I'm not. Of course a QB needs a supporting cast to win...that's the point. A supporting cast helps make a QB look and perform better a helluva lot more than vice versa...Wilson is no more 'franchise' and should not be heralded as such any more than any other SB-winning QB before him that had a significant contribution to team success. Also, individual stats are irrelevant...championships are.

[Mike]

You're the one whining about a QB being 'everything'...obviously, I'm not. Of course a QB needs a supporting cast to win...that's the point. A supporting cast helps make a QB look and perform better a helluva lot more than vice versa...Wilson is no more 'franchise' and should not be heralded as such any more than any other SB-winning QB before him that had a significant contribution to team success. Also, individual stats are irrelevant...championships are.

Yardrat it seems like this is getting personal for you.

- You posts don't even make sense anymore.

[stuckincincy]

We can agree, I'm sure, that both have had amazing starts to their career.

That we agree on. I'd add, tho, that the NFl has opened things up for the pass attack a fair amount, since Ben R broke in. I have seen a lot of Ben, of course, being stuck here in Cincinnati (hence my moniker).

[YardRat]

Yardrat it seems like this is getting personal for you.

- You posts don't even make sense anymore.

I don't take things personally :D, and of course my posts make sense. Yours struggle, though. Make up your mind...QB or supporting cast? If you truly believe supporting cast makes a substantial difference, then it really doesn't matter where Casserly ranks last year's rookie QB's with this year's crop, now does it?

[WagonCircler]

Big Ben is the perfect example of why you can't just use stats to judge a QB. His pocket awareness and improvisational skills alone put him far ahead of other rookie QBs, right from the start. Turning bad plays into positive plays and escaping sacks is something he has a freakish talent for, and that doesn't show up in the stats. Same goes for Wilson, albeit with a slightly different style.

EJ has exhibited no evidence of that kind of pocket awareness or anything beyond average escapability. And he struggles with accuracy standing flat footed, never mind throwing on the run. He also carries the football like a loaf of bread when running cueing him to fumble during crucial situations.

How you can be a QB from Pop Warner all the way through the NFL and STILL not learn to protect the football is baffling to me. If he hasn't learned by now (same goes for his mechanics, BTW) he's not going to.

EJ struggles with fundamentals. These things should be second nature to him by now. If he's having to concentrate so much to overcome those flaws, there's no way he can become elite at reading and reacting to coverages. You can only think about so much at one time.

[swiper]

I don't take things personally :D, and of course my posts make sense. Yours struggle, though. Make up your mind...QB or supporting cast? If you truly believe supporting cast makes a substantial difference, then it really doesn't matter where Casserly ranks last year's rookie QB's with this year's crop, now does it?

The Bills supporting cast is a 7-8/10.

The best QB on their roster is a 3/10.

They need a QB.

[YardRat]

With all of the rules changes, having an 'elite' QB is less important than ever. Hell, run of the mill QBs put up 'monster' statistics. EJ, at the very least, can be 'run of the mill'. The only things a QB needs to bring to the table in today's NFL is A-Don't **** up so badly that you lose games (which EJ didn't last season), and B-Occasionally play big in clutch situations (which, regardless of anything else, he did show some nice flashes in that department). 10 games into a professional career, the only real concern amongst Bill's fans at this point should be the injuries.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

It has been 10 years or so. Many a rule change, designed to make the cash register ring. Who can think a player like Wilson would have prospered back then, in 2004, when Roethlisberger was a rookie out of the gate?

Wilson is a product of rule changes.

Those rule changes you are mentioning started in 2005 with the re-emphasis on illegal contact after the Pats beat up the Colts in the AFCCG. We're not talking about the 70's here, Ben has benefited from them nearly as much.


Mike - yes - I believe wins, playoff appearances, and winning a SB counts much more than stats and accolades. Who hasn't daydreamed about what-ifs, if BUF had landed Ben R in the '04 draft?

The women of Buffalo, that's for sure.


It is too funny. So Bortles who needs more polish than EJ did/does is the only lock for a top pick yet the 2014 class wins?

And Mike Glennon had by far the best Rookie year last year. And I doubt anyone from this years class has a better Rookie year than Mike did.

The Bleacher Report article noted that Smith had the most starts and wins last year, even though statistically he was probably the worst of the rookie crop. Glennon put up a bunch of numbers but only went 4-9. Haven't we already had this argument about EJ? At the time you were of the opinion that the QB who played poorly in a winning effort was better than the QB who played well but lost.


I have railed against it from day 1, rail now, and will continue to rail against that idiotic quick snap hurry-up monstrosity they cooked up last season. They touted it like the PR gimmick it was. If you want to run stuff like that, do it with a seasoned OL and QB, certainly not with a rookie qb who can just barely sniff out NFL defensive sets, let alone the trickery between OL set and the snap.

Conventional wisdom is that it takes time for a rookie to get used to "the speed of the NFL game." So they went ahead and made it even faster for Manuel. How dumb. :coocoo:

Speeding it up helps QBs because the defense is forced to declare itself faster and can't run exotic substitution packages or presnap movement. But your QB has to be consistently accurate to keep the chains moving, and EJ was not.

[TacklingDummy]

With all of the rules changes, having an 'elite' QB is less important than ever. Hell, run of the mill QBs put up 'monster' statistics. .

Run of the mill QBs might get you a winning season 2 out of 10 times. Doubtful any playoff victories. Unless of course you have the Ravens Defense.

Elite QBs will get you winning seasons 9.5 out of 10 times and Super Bowl appearances.

I'll take the Elite QB.

[YardRat]

Run of the mill QBs might get you a winning season 2 out of 10 times. Doubtful any playoff victories. Unless of course you have the Ravens Defense.

Elite QBs will get you winning seasons 9.5 out of 10 times and Super Bowl appearances.

I'll take the Elite QB.

Good luck finding one. There are exactly two in the league right now, maybe three. P.Manning and Brady are the only QB's in thre NFL that can win consistently with sub-par talent around them. Even Rodgers and Rothlisberger need a supporting cast. E.Manning sure as hell isn't elite, amongst others (Flacco, Dalton, etc.) For some (Newton, Kap, Wilson) it's too early too tell, but those youngsters all have one thing in common...dominant defenses. Luck may be the closest thing from the young guns, but he still has a way to go to produce any kind of legacy.

By using some of the arguments and 'facts' presented in this thread, one should come to the conclusion that Wilson is a better QB than Luck, and I don't think there are too many that would actually make that contention.

[WagonCircler]

Good luck finding one. There are exactly two in the league right now, maybe three. P.Manning and Brady are the only QB's in thre NFL that can win consistently with sub-par talent around them. Even Rodgers and Rothlisberger need a supporting cast. E.Manning sure as hell isn't elite, amongst others (Flacco, Dalton, etc.) For some (Newton, Kap, Wilson) it's too early too tell, but those youngsters all have one thing in common...dominant defenses. Luck may be the closest thing from the young guns, but he still has a way to go to produce any kind of legacy.

By using some of the arguments and 'facts' presented in this thread, one should come to the conclusion that Wilson is a better QB than Luck, and I don't think there are too many that would actually make that contention.

Wait, with all of the "rule changes" should more QBs be elite?

You can't have it both ways.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Good luck finding one. There are exactly two in the league right now, maybe three. P.Manning and Brady are the only QB's in thre NFL that can win consistently with sub-par talent around them. Even Rodgers and Rothlisberger need a supporting cast. E.Manning sure as hell isn't elite, amongst others (Flacco, Dalton, etc.) For some (Newton, Kap, Wilson) it's too early too tell, but those youngsters all have one thing in common...dominant defenses. Luck may be the closest thing from the young guns, but he still has a way to go to produce any kind of legacy.

By using some of the arguments and 'facts' presented in this thread, one should come to the conclusion that Wilson is a better QB than Luck, and I don't think there are too many that would actually make that contention.

Why is that such a hard thing to believe?

[stuckincincy]

Speeding it up helps QBs because the defense is forced to declare itself faster and can't run exotic substitution packages or presnap movement. But your QB has to be consistently accurate to keep the chains moving, and EJ was not.

Indeed, but that's something, in my view, for an established team to try, with and established coaching staff and supporting cast. All clubs use hurry-up from time to time, but BUF's chronic use of it was unusual, especially when having to wean a rookie QB.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Indeed, but that's something, in my view, for an established team to try, with and established coaching staff and supporting cast. All clubs use hurry-up from time to time, but BUF's chronic use of it was unusual, especially when having to wean a rookie QB.

I'm saying they tried it because he was a rookie QB, not in spite of that.

[YardRat]

Wait, with all of the "rule changes" should more QBs be elite?

You can't have it both ways.

More QB's are being perceived as elite...because they put up stats.

- - - Updated - - -


Why is that such a hard thing to believe?

Is that your opinion? Wilson > Luck?

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Is that your opinion? Wilson > Luck?

In some aspects of their game. Luck has more physical potential but I think Wilson's played better overall so far.

[YardRat]

In some aspects of their game. Luck has more physical potential but I think Wilson's played better overall so far.

Who is the better QB? You get to start your own team from scratch, and the option at QB is either Luck or Wilson...who do you choose?

[stuckincincy]

In some aspects of their game. Luck has more physical potential but I think Wilson's played better overall so far.

I find myself not knowing what to think, after year after year of tweaking rules in favor of passing. Wilson's shined, but Luck comes on board and bingo IND has back-to-back 11-5 seasons and 2 straight playoff appearances. I used to be able to watch college games and form some sort of opinion about QBs, but with all the spread offenses now - dunno. I see a big hulk like Bortles, or a Manzeil that runs around like a chicken with a bucket of boiling water flung at its' ass.

:scratch:

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Who is the better QB? You get to start your own team from scratch, and the option at QB is either Luck or Wilson...who do you choose?

Right now Wilson is the better QB, but as I said Luck has more physical potential. If I had to choose one I would take Luck, but that's looking forward.


I find myself not knowing what to think, after year after year of tweaking rules in favor of passing. Wilson's shined, but Luck comes on board and bingo IND has back-to-back 11-5 seasons and 2 straight playoff appearances. I used to be able to watch college games and form some sort of opinion about QBs, but with all the spread offenses now - dunno. I see a big hulk like Bortles, or a Manzeil that runs around like a chicken with a bucket of boiling water flung at its' ass.

:scratch:

Luck does have the habit of pulling things out at the end of games. (The pun is there but I'm not taking the bait) I mean, it was practically a running gag this year to say "Look, Indy is down by double-digits at halftime, Luck has them right where he wants them."

[stuckincincy]

I wouldn't bother drafting a new qb, save a look-see in latter rounds. The rules are so biased, build the best OL you can. Your and wrs will get the judgement calls more times than not.

This league is so much about show biz these days.

[GingerP]

Right now Wilson is the better QB, but as I said Luck has more physical potential. If I had to choose one I would take Luck, but that's looking forward.

I think you'd take either, they both are pretty good.


Luck does have the habit of pulling things out at the end of games. (The pun is there but I'm not taking the bait) I mean, it was practically a running gag this year to say "Look, Indy is down by double-digits at halftime, Luck has them right where he wants them."

Elway was like that as well. Reeves would play the game conservatively to keep it close, then give it to Elway late in the game to let him win it. If Elway wasn't handcuffed for the first part of his career with Reeves conservative style, he would have put up much better numbers.

[GingerP]

I wouldn't bother drafting a new qb, save a look-see in latter rounds. The rules are so biased, build the best OL you can. Your and wrs will get the judgement calls more times than not.

This league is so much about show biz these days.

The league throws more today, but the basics of good QB play hasn't changed. The QB needs to read the defense, quickly identify where to throw it and deliver the ball accurately.

There are different ways to play QB, Wilson is successful his way. I don't think that has anything to do with rule changes. The fact is, he is efficient (career QB rating over 100), makes good decisions and is accurate. I think any team would take that.

[YardRat]

The league throws more today, but the basics of good QB play hasn't changed. The QB needs to read the defense, quickly identify where to throw it and deliver the ball accurately.

There are different ways to play QB, Wilson is successful his way. I don't think that has anything to do with rule changes. The fact is, he is efficient (career QB rating over 100), makes good decisions and is accurate. I think any team would take that.

Without his receiver getting touched, let alone mugged, after five yards. Without the receiver fearing the big hit. Without himself fearing getting racked, or hit in the legs, or hit in the head. With the ability to throw the ball away under pressure without penalty. With the benefit of offensive linemen being llowed to extend their arms, and open their hands, to pass protect. Eliminating 'chucking' receivers out of bounds and taking them out of the play.

Yeah, it's changed a lot.

[Goobylal]

Give me Wilson's defense, Lynch, and almost any QB and I'll win a lot of games. And there's a lot more passing now because the rules favor the offense. It's why you can't compare QB's today to those of even 15 years ago.

[sudzy]

Give me Wilson's defense, Lynch, and almost any QB and I'll win a lot of games. And there's a lot more passing now because the rules favor the offense. It's why you can't compare QB's today to those of even 15 years ago.

The Bills were 2nd in rushing yards in the NFL. They also had a top ten defense that played 100 plays more then Seattle. They were tied for 4th in the NFL in yards per play. Not too shabby. And still 6 wins. Why? The 28th passing attack in the NFL. Maybe the Bills didn't have quite as good of a defense as Seattle and maybe they don't have Lynch (they did and shipped him off), but the running game and defense are NOT why this team didn't make the playoffs. If they could have had, even, average QB play they might have.

[Goobylal]

The Bills were 2nd in rushing yards in the NFL. They also had a top ten defense that played 100 plays more then Seattle. They were tied for 4th in the NFL in yards per play. Not too shabby. And still 6 wins. Why? The 28th passing attack in the NFL. Maybe the Bills didn't have quite as good of a defense as Seattle and maybe they don't have Lynch (they did and shipped him off), but the running game and defense are NOT why this team didn't make the playoffs. If they could have had, even, average QB play they might have.
The Bills might have been 2nd in rushing yards, but they were 14th in average. Granted Seattle was 12th, but give me a defense that allows just 14.4 PPG and creates loads of turnovers and I'll have a winning record every year.

And I agree on why the Bills didn't make the playoffs. Again had EJ not missed 6 games, or had Kolb been available for at least the first 2 of those 6 games, or if Lewis had been added to the team earlier, they likely go at least 8-8. But the Atlanta game was theirs and others came up short. And going 9-7 that way was all it would have taken for them to make the playoffs over the Chargers last year.

[GingerP]

Without his receiver getting touched, let alone mugged, after five yards. Without the receiver fearing the big hit. Without himself fearing getting racked, or hit in the legs, or hit in the head. With the ability to throw the ball away under pressure without penalty. With the benefit of offensive linemen being llowed to extend their arms, and open their hands, to pass protect. Eliminating 'chucking' receivers out of bounds and taking them out of the play.

Yeah, it's changed a lot.

Never said the game hasn't changed, not sure how you got that.

I stated QB play on a basic level is the same. QBs come in different styles, do different things well. In the end, what it comes down to is identifying how to exploit the defense and getting the ball there accurately. You want a QB who makes good decisions. No matter how the game has changed, Wilson does that.

Wilson may not fit the "conventional" view of a QB, but his performance is what matters. He has been efficient and led his team. Trying to downplay his significance is silly. Lots of teams have had good defenses over the years, their QB haven't necessarily accomplished what Wilson has in his first 2 seasons.

[Goobylal]

Never said the game hasn't changed, not sure how you got that.

I stated QB play on a basic level is the same. QBs come in different styles, do different things well. In the end, what it comes down to is identifying how to exploit the defense and getting the ball there accurately. You want a QB who makes good decisions. No matter how the game has changed, Wilson does that.

Wilson may not fit the "conventional" view of a QB, but his performance is what matters. He has been efficient and led his team. Trying to downplay his significance is silly. Lots of teams have had good defenses over the years, their QB haven't necessarily accomplished what Wilson has in his first 2 seasons.
He accomplished most of what he did thanks to his defense, which has allowed an average of 15 PPG the past 2 years. He did little against the Saints and didn't need to do much against the Broncos. And against SF, in addition to his defense, he can also thank the refs.

[sudzy]

Again had EJ not missed 6 games, or had Kolb been available for at least the first 2 of those 6 games, or if Lewis had been added to the team earlier, they likely go at least 8-8. But the Atlanta game was theirs and others came up short. And going 9-7 that way was all it would have taken for them to make the playoffs over the Chargers last year.

Your assuming that EJ or Kolb would have played better then Thad in the 5 game that Thad had started? Thad had a great game vs the Bengals in a tough loss, two win vs Miami and the NO and NE I think any QB on this team would have lost. Yes, the Atlanta loss hurt, but, as much as EJ crapping his pants vs TB.

[Goobylal]

Your assuming that EJ or Kolb would have played better then Thad in the 5 game that Thad had started? Thad had a great game vs the Bengals in a tough loss, two win vs Miami and the NO and NE I think any QB on this team would have lost. Yes, the Atlanta loss hurt, but, as much as EJ crapping his pants vs TB.
Huh? I'm saying EJ would have won the Browns game and the Chefs game, along with the Dols games. I think Thad could have won them as well. The Bengals and 2nd Pats games I can't say but I doubt he beats the Saints. As for the Bucs, the whole team crapped their pants.

[YardRat]

Never said the game hasn't changed, not sure how you got that.

I stated QB play on a basic level is the same. QBs come in different styles, do different things well. In the end, what it comes down to is identifying how to exploit the defense and getting the ball there accurately. You want a QB who makes good decisions. No matter how the game has changed, Wilson does that.

Wilson may not fit the "conventional" view of a QB, but his performance is what matters. He has been efficient and led his team. Trying to downplay his significance is silly. Lots of teams have had good defenses over the years, their QB haven't necessarily accomplished what Wilson has in his first 2 seasons.

The basic level has become much easier to perform, thanks to rule changes. I'm not down-playing Wilson's significance, but I'm not over-hyping it either...just looking at it with perspective.

[Mouldsie]

Andrew Luck is already a top 5 NFL QB IMO with Rodgers, Manning, Brady, and Brees.

[Mike]

You are just making stuff up now. Hardly anyone liked those moves.

I wish I was. When Maybin was drafted a good portion of fans justified & supported the move. I even took bets that Orakpo would get more sacks as a rookie than Maybin would in his entire career!

If you don't want to believe it, try and go back to posts on this blogfrom than era. For 2 years posters like Yardrat & Better Days defended the moves, and wanted to be optomistic.

Go back to posts when those things happens & you will see for yourself.

[Mike]

I am confused, you say Rothlisberger was great his first two years because he won a bunch of games and a super bowl, but Wilson wins a bunch of games and a super bowl his first two seasons and he is a product of rule changes? How come those rule changes have not worked for the Bills?

How come those same rule chAnges didn't help other QBs win SB or help Big Ben win a few more? Surely if he was significantly better it would translate to even more wins

[YardRat]

I wish I was. When Maybin was drafted a good portion of fans justified & supported the move. I even took bets that Orakpo would get more sacks as a rookie than Maybin would in his entire career!

If you don't want to believe it, try and go back to posts on this blogfrom than era. For 2 years posters like Yardrat & Better Days defended the moves, and wanted to be optomistic.

Go back to posts when those things happens & you will see for yourself.

Actually I wanted Oher or Orakpo, and probably the most 'defensive' I would have been was to state he deserved a chance to prove something before being completely dismissed, a stance I will take with most. I've taken quick hard opinions on players before, sometimes being right, sometimes wrong.


How come those same rule chAnges didn't help other QBs win SB or help Big Ben win a few more? Surely if he was significantly better it would translate to even more wins

Because it isn't all about the QB. Duhhhhh. Your only argument for 'nobody is better than Wilson his first two years...EVER!" was to quote his stat line, period. QB's as a group put up bigger numbers than they did prior to rules changes. Look at how many 5000 yard passers there were prior to the late 90's, and how many since. Yards per attempt, also. Attempts, completions, yards, TD's....all are up league wide. Double Duhhhh.