A 4-member Trust will decide who buys the Bills. GREAT news. [Archive] - BillsZone.com

WagonCircler

05-06-2014, 01:05 PM

bleve

05-06-2014, 01:18 PM

Is Mary Owen really Ralph's daughter? Wouldn't that make her Mary, Jr.?

I believe she is Mary Wilson’s niece.

BLeonard

05-06-2014, 01:19 PM

At the risk of being repetitive, it's great news because it's further evidence that this is not simply a situation in which the estate has a responsibility to sell to the highest bidder, with no other recourse.

Fair enough...

When you add this to several other factors, like the recent reports that clauses in the lease make it very, very difficult to move the team, and the fast moving political machinations, it's becoming clear that there's a plan in place that was set up by Ralph to ensure that the team is sold to an owner who will keep it in WNY.

Well, we had the discussion in the other thread about how we don't know which side it was (The Bills, or Erie County/NYS) that wanted those clauses put in the lease, so I won't repeat them here, but who says that this four person Trust will definitely vote to sell to someone who will keep the team in WNY...?

On top of that, who says that the NFL owners will approve that sale? Regardless of what the 4 person Trust decides, the NFL can still nix it, unless I'm missing something.

I hope this helps, but it seems as though you have your heart set on waving goodbye to the team, so, beyond that, I got nothin'.

I just asked a question... I don't want the team to leave WNY and never have said that. I don't think any person on this board, or any Bills fan in the world wants them to leave. Why not just take my question at face value...?

Anyone who has studied Bills history probably doesn't hold the name Jeff Littmann in very high regards. Under this scenario, he holds a pretty valuable vote, as it would take all three of the other members to overrule him.

Finally, just because the trust isn't required to sell to the highest bidder, that doesn't mean that, in the end, they won't vote to do exactly that.

-Bill

Woodman

05-06-2014, 01:23 PM

The planning that's been done by Ralph in advance tends to make a much stronger case for the Bills to stay put. It leaves me at the very least pretty optimistic for the future of the franchise staying in Buffalo. I certainly couldn't take it negatively in any manner.

Debby Downer doesn't live here anymore.

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trapezeus

05-06-2014, 01:34 PM

that super restrictive lease was approved by the NFL. they had to know what was in the lease. and to me that shows there is a sentiment to keep the team in the area.

i don't think the 4 man trust is going to take a lesser deal, but i think thye will work within the confines of the lease agreement and find an owner who wants to keep in buffalo.

but anything that involves lawyers and investment bankers is subject to change until everything is executed.

ghz in pittsburgh

05-06-2014, 01:46 PM

WagonCircler

05-06-2014, 01:48 PM

Fair enough...

Well, we had the discussion in the other thread about how we don't know which side it was (The Bills, or Erie County/NYS) that wanted those clauses put in the lease, so I won't repeat them here, but who says that this four person Trust will definitely vote to sell to someone who will keep the team in WNY...?

On top of that, who says that the NFL owners will approve that sale? Regardless of what the 4 person Trust decides, the NFL can still nix it, unless I'm missing something.

I just asked a question... I don't want the team to leave WNY and never have said that. I don't think any person on this board, or any Bills fan in the world wants them to leave. Why not just take my question at face value...?

Anyone who has studied Bills history probably doesn't hold the name Jeff Littmann in very high regards. Under this scenario, he holds a pretty valuable vote, as it would take all three of the other members to overrule him.

Finally, just because the trust isn't required to sell to the highest bidder, that doesn't mean that, in the end, they won't vote to do exactly that.

-Bill

I don't know, Bill. It just seems like you're relentless in your pursuit of convincing people that the Bills are leaving, despite mounting evidence that they will not be, which you seem to disregard.

I don't think there's one person here, even the most hardcore optimist (something I certainly have never been accused of) who maintains that the Bills are guaranteed to stay, but it's clear to me, anyway, that the evidence of a coordinated plan to force the situation toward a local buyer has been created.

There are just too many forces working in concert for me to believe it's all coincidental, and I think that after all is said and done, we'll get the whole story.

Until then, I'm more than cautiously optimistic, and for very good reason.

Sure, just because they're not required to sell to the highest bidder doesn't mean they won't, but that doesn't answer my question, which is "What's the point of creating the trust, then?"

And more importantly, regardless of what they may or may not do, the fact that they exist at all as a trust totally debunks the idea that the estate's hands are tied. They're not. This is now an establish fact. It is no longer in the arsenal of those who said that the Bills have no choice but to sell to the highest bidder.

It's now a matter of record that the do have a choice. And there's no good reason to have established the trust other than to see to it that the team remains local.

BuffaloRedleg

05-06-2014, 02:06 PM

Mary Wilson - "whoever gives the highest price";
Jeff Littman - "Whoever gives me the longest and rishest contract"
Mary Owen (Ralph's daughter I believe) - see Mary Wilson
Eugene Driker - "whoever retains me for the biggest fee"

I'd groan you if we could. This is just idiotic.

better days

05-06-2014, 02:18 PM

BLeonard

05-06-2014, 02:35 PM

I don't know, Bill. It just seems like you're relentless in your pursuit of convincing people that the Bills are leaving, despite mounting evidence that they will not be, which you seem to disregard.

Please show me one post of mine where I have said the Bills are leaving... I don't want them to leave... As I said, I doubt anyone on this board does. But to think that things like the "ironclad" parts of the lease were 100%, without a doubt, Ralph Wilson's idea, are kinda silly, IMO... Erie County and NYS certainly have a vested interest in keeping the team here after Wilson's passing. It's very possible (and I'd even lean towards probable) that they were the ones that wanted those parts in, to make sure they got their money's worth out of what they'll be paying to renovate the stadium throughout the duration of the lease.

I don't think there's one person here, even the most hardcore optimist (something I certainly have never been accused of) who maintains that the Bills are guaranteed to stay, but it's clear to me, anyway, that the evidence of a coordinated plan to force the situation toward a local buyer has been created.[quote]

Which begs the question: Why not just come out and say that any owner will be required to keep the team in WNY? Not just for the duration of the lease, but permanently? Surely, they could get that in writing, if they wanted to...

[QUOTE=WagonCircler;3942221]
There are just too many forces working in concert for me to believe it's all coincidental, and I think that after all is said and done, we'll get the whole story.

Oh, certainly not coincidental... I just don't believe it is "all Ralph" either... The NFL and Erie County/NYS are heavily involved as well, as they have a heavy interest in the team staying, too.

Sure, just because they're not required to sell to the highest bidder doesn't mean they won't, but that doesn't answer my question, which is "What's the point of creating the trust, then?"

Your question makes sense, on the surface, but at the same time, just because Wilson created the trust doesn't mean that those members couldn't go "against Ralph's wishes" and do what is best for them as a group... I'm not saying that they will, I'm just saying, I've seen some cases where the "plans" are pretty well laid out in a person's will, but the executors do something completely different.

And more importantly, regardless of what they may or may not do, the fact that they exist at all as a trust totally debunks the idea that the estate's hands are tied. They're not. This is now an establish fact. It is no longer in the arsenal of those who said that the Bills have no choice but to sell to the highest bidder.

No disagreements here... But again, they still need the approval of the NFL Owners.

-Bill

BLeonard

05-06-2014, 02:38 PM

Yes the NFL has to approve a new owner.

Owners likely to not be approved:

A) Prospective Owners with shaky financing

B) Prospective Owners with a shady background

C) Protective Owners that intend to move the team out of Buffalo.

I have no doubt that whoever is approved by the trust will also be approved by the NFL Owners.

A and B I'll agree with, but why C...?

Why would other owners care, especially if the location that the new owner plans to move to would make all of them more money...?

Just because they say in public that they think the team should remain in WNY doesn't mean that they'll vote that way, if and when a relocation vote takes place.

-Bill

better days

05-06-2014, 02:39 PM

Please show me one post of mine where I have said the Bills are leaving... I don't want them to leave... As I said, I doubt anyone on this board does. But to think that things like the "ironclad" parts of the lease were 100%, without a doubt, Ralph Wilson's idea, are kinda silly, IMO... Erie County and NYS certainly have a vested interest in keeping the team here after Wilson's passing. It's very possible (and I'd even lean towards probable) that they were the ones that wanted those parts in, to make sure they got their money's worth out of what they'll be paying to renovate the stadium throughout the duration of the lease.

[QUOTE=WagonCircler;3942221]
I don't think there's one person here, even the most hardcore optimist (something I certainly have never been accused of) who maintains that the Bills are guaranteed to stay, but it's clear to me, anyway, that the evidence of a coordinated plan to force the situation toward a local buyer has been created.[quote]

Which begs the question: Why not just come out and say that any owner will be required to keep the team in WNY? Not just for the duration of the lease, but permanently? Surely, they could get that in writing, if they wanted to...

Oh, certainly not coincidental... I just don't believe it is "all Ralph" either... The NFL and Erie County/NYS are heavily involved as well, as they have a heavy interest in the team staying, too.

Your question makes sense, on the surface, but at the same time, just because Wilson created the trust doesn't mean that those members couldn't go "against Ralph's wishes" and do what is best for them as a group... I'm not saying that they will, I'm just saying, I've seen some cases where the "plans" are pretty well laid out in a person's will, but the executors do something completely different.

No disagreements here... But again, they still need the approval of the NFL Owners.

-Bill

If Ralph wanted to, he could have played on YEARLY leases that a new owner could EASILY break at any time.

BLeonard

05-06-2014, 02:51 PM

If Ralph wanted to, he could have played on YEARLY leases that a new owner could EASILY break at any time.

Erie County and NYS would have had to agree to that arrangement as well... And, I'd guarantee that, under those conditions, RWS would not have gotten a dime of money towards stadium renovation.

Erie County and NYS weren't gonna agree to a lease that they didn't get their money's worth out of, as I said before... Which means it makes even more sense that the "ironclad" parts of the lease were introduced by those representatives and not the Bills.

In other words, the county and state said: "Hey, we're putting all of this money into renovating the stadium over the duration of this lease, we want some guarantees that there is gonna be a team to utilize it, if the team's ownership changes during the lease term."

-Bill

Fletch

05-06-2014, 02:56 PM

I'm struggling to figure out how this is "great" news...

I'm pretty sure the NFL still has to approve the new owner as well... What if the Trust agrees to sell to someone, but the NFL owners don't approve them...? What happens then...?

Also, anything involving Jeff Littmann having a say doesn't exactly consume me with optimism.

Also curious that Russ Brandon isn't part of this group... Does that mean that Littmann outranks him in the Bills' Front Office hierarchy...?

Perhaps someone can explain why we should be taking this as "great" news...?

-Bill

My thoughts exactly. These same people have repeatedly left a steamer sitting on the mantlepiece at OBD, now we want them selling the team. Please.

And nahhh, not much potential for infighting there. (sarcasm)

As you say, more relevant than who's deciding who buys the team will be the other owners. They're all going to be shooting straight for the money, which also doesn't bode well for Buffalo.

Again, my money goes on a Canadian interest buying the team and moving it to Niagara Falls Canada, St. Catherines, or Hamilton hoping that most Bills fans will still consider it their team.

Here's a food-for-thought scenario, let's assume for a moment that the biggest money would actually be in Ontario, and that the owners are all enthused about having their first international team, they could deliberately, or with encouragement, introduce a buyer from say L.A. which would cause everyone to get into an uproar, then have an Ontario team come in white-knight style to "save" the team from moving with the stipulation that the team move just across the border and everyone would talk about how much better that is.

I'm curious how many people would still be loyal and ardent fans if the team moved just over the border in Ontario.

Bill Cody

05-06-2014, 02:57 PM

Sure, just because they're not required to sell to the highest bidder doesn't mean they won't, but that doesn't answer my question, which is "What's the point of creating the trust, then?"

And more importantly, regardless of what they may or may not do, the fact that they exist at all as a trust totally debunks the idea that the estate's hands are tied. They're not. This is now an establish fact. It is no longer in the arsenal of those who said that the Bills have no choice but to sell to the highest bidder.

It's now a matter of record that the do have a choice. And there's no good reason to have established the trust other than to see to it that the team remains local.

You're really jumping to conclusions. The reason for the trust is really quite obvious- to protect the interests of the beneficiary, Mary. Mary owns the team but she's in her 80's and she's probably not able to pass judgment on a pile of 1B offers. The panel is there to make sure the bidders have the ability to actually deliver on what they're bidding- many of those consordiums can't when you really shine a light on their financing plans. How you go from a group designed to do due diligence on the bids to "this means the team stays in Buffalo" I really couldn't say.

Fletch

05-06-2014, 03:16 PM

I don't know, Bill. It just seems like you're relentless in your pursuit of convincing people that the Bills are leaving, despite mounting evidence that they will not be, which you seem to disregard.

I don't think there's one person here, even the most hardcore optimist (something I certainly have never been accused of) who maintains that the Bills are guaranteed to stay, but it's clear to me, anyway, that the evidence of a coordinated plan to force the situation toward a local buyer has been created.

There are just too many forces working in concert for me to believe it's all coincidental, and I think that after all is said and done, we'll get the whole story.

Until then, I'm more than cautiously optimistic, and for very good reason.

Sure, just because they're not required to sell to the highest bidder doesn't mean they won't, but that doesn't answer my question, which is "What's the point of creating the trust, then?"

And more importantly, regardless of what they may or may not do, the fact that they exist at all as a trust totally debunks the idea that the estate's hands are tied. They're not. This is now an establish fact. It is no longer in the arsenal of those who said that the Bills have no choice but to sell to the highest bidder.

It's now a matter of record that the do have a choice. And there's no good reason to have established the trust other than to see to it that the team remains local.

I completely disagree that there's "mounting evidence" that the team isn't leaving. I'm not saying that it is, but if you ask me the odds are greater that they leave than stay.

What you have to understand is that any person or group interested in buying and moving the team probably isn't being vocal right now in order to allow all the emotions to subside. These things don't turn on a dime.

Secondly, where there is and has been mounting evidence is that NYS is broke and that Eric County doesn't have a pot to piss in. Considering that a brand new stadium, financed by the taxpayers as usual, and not what I like to see anywhere as teams (aka businesses) should pay for themselves in a closed system, will be required, I don't see how WNY can possibly be a frontrunner, particularly when just over the border there's ten times more money.

Right now Bills fan heavyweights, team administrators, local politicians, etc. are in a panic and tizzy scrambling to find ways to keep the team here. Don't mistake passion for feasibility. There's no shortage of passion on our end, the side that wants to keep the team here, but logically the odds are significantly greater that another municipality will be more suited to having an NFL team and there's no question that the top-3 interests of the other owners, either independently or collectively, have "keeping the team in Buffalo" as a top priority. I mean how many other owners have we heard iterate that sentiment, that it's important to them to keep the team in Buffalo? I haven't read about one. Is that a coincidence? I don't think so.

They're mostly if not all going to follow the money and it takes what, 24 owners to approve a sale? If they see that one potential owner wants to move the team to a place that's going to make them more money, AHEM, Ontario, then they'll find ways to not approve an owner with the opposite intentions.

Also, whatever happened to the "news" that the team would go to the highest bidder? Is that no longer true? What now, this committee is going to sell for less to another owner that wants to keep the team here? If that were the case, then why didn't Wilson set that up while he was still alive.

IMO it's foolish to think for two seconds that the team staying here is odds-on.

Fletch

05-06-2014, 03:22 PM

I just asked a question... I don't want the team to leave WNY and never have said that. I don't think any person on this board, or any Bills fan in the world wants them to leave. Why not just take my question at face value...?

I'll tell you why, because people here take everything emotionally at the lowest possible common denominating level. The second that something doesn't make sense they hurl accusations, insist that someone just throwing a possibility out there that they don't like "isn't a real fan," and they have no answers so they react in that emotional manner.

Same reasons that when someone poo-poo's a draft pick or coaching choice they do the same.

They're not interested in a true debate and discussion, they just want to hear themselves talk and seem, apparently, to think that by doing so that what they want to come true will happen.

better days

05-06-2014, 03:38 PM

I'll tell you why, because people here take everything emotionally at the lowest possible common denominating level. The second that something doesn't make sense they hurl accusations, insist that someone just throwing a possibility out there that they don't like "isn't a real fan," and they have no answers so they react in that emotional manner.

Same reasons that when someone poo-poo's a draft pick or coaching choice they do the same.

They're not interested in a true debate and discussion, they just want to hear themselves talk and seem, apparently, to think that by doing so that what they want to come true will happen.

It is just the opposite of what you say in this post.

The people that say the Bills are moving are saying so despite everything in the NATIONAL news that says the Bills will be staying in Buffalo.

And I don't believe for a minute you people that think the Bills will move, really want them to stay.

BLeonard

05-06-2014, 03:56 PM

Secondly, where there is and has been mounting evidence is that NYS is broke and that Eric County doesn't have a pot to piss in. Considering that a brand new stadium, financed by the taxpayers as usual, and not what I like to see anywhere as teams (aka businesses) should pay for themselves in a closed system, will be required, I don't see how WNY can possibly be a frontrunner, particularly when just over the border there's ten times more money.

To be fair, counties and states always cry poor, but, in most cases, when it comes to building a stadium to prevent a team from moving, they find a way to get it done more often than not...

In recent years, NYS has contributed in building stadiums for the Mets and Yankees and I believe they even had a hand in helping with MetLife Stadium... if they can do all that, I'm pretty sure they'll find a way to get it done for the Bills, especially considering the fact that the Bills are the only NFL team in the State of New York... It'd look pretty bad if they couldn't help an in-state team, but could help the Jersey Giants and Jets.

Right now Bills fan heavyweights, team administrators, local politicians, etc. are in a panic and tizzy scrambling to find ways to keep the team here. Don't mistake passion for feasibility. There's no shortage of passion on our end, the side that wants to keep the team here, but logically the odds are significantly greater that another municipality will be more suited to having an NFL team and there's no question that the top-3 interests of the other owners, either independently or collectively, have "keeping the team in Buffalo" as a top priority. I mean how many other owners have we heard iterate that sentiment, that it's important to them to keep the team in Buffalo? I haven't read about one. Is that a coincidence? I don't think so.

Pretty sure that a few owners have said that the team should stay in WNY... I recall hearing about it, but can't really find anything online. Either way, what they say and how they vote are two completely different things.

Also, whatever happened to the "news" that the team would go to the highest bidder? Is that no longer true? What now, this committee is going to sell for less to another owner that wants to keep the team here? If that were the case, then why didn't Wilson set that up while he was still alive.

Pretty sure that's what Wagon is saying here... Due to the trust having to vote on it, they could vote to sell to someone that is not necessarily the highest bidder.

As for the second part (why didn't Wilson set that up while he was still alive) that's kinda what I've been wondering... If he wanted to make sure the team stayed in WNY, he could have allowed a minority owner (Pretty sure Jim Kelly asked him about it many times) that would have greatly increased the chances of that happening.

The only thing I can come up with to answer that would be, for some reason, he wanted everyone to be uncertain of the team's future after his passing...

IMO it's foolish to think for two seconds that the team staying here is odds-on.

Personally, I don't think the team will leave, especially not before the lease expires. On top of the parts of the "ironclad" lease that make it very difficult to move, the NFL also has relocation rules: http://www.leg.state.mn.us/webcontent/lrl/issues/FootballStadium/NFLFranchiseRelocationRules.pdf

Because League policy favors stable team-community relations, clubs are obligated to work diligently and in good faith to obtain and to maintain suitable stadium facilities in their home territories, and to operate in a manner that maximizes fan support in their current home community. A club may not, however, grant exclusive negotiating rights to a community or potential stadium landlord other than one in its current home territory.

All clubs, at any time during their stadium negotiations, are free to seek the assistance of the League Office and the Stadium Committee, on either a formal or informal basis. If, having diligently engaged in good faith efforts, a club concludes that it cannot obtain a satisfactory resolution of its stadium needs, it may inform the League Office and the stadium landlord or other relevant public authorities that it has reached a stalemate in those negotiations. Upon such a declaration, the League may elect to become directly involved in the negotiations.

In short, NYS and Erie County better not dilly-dally with getting the Bills a new stadium, or agree on a suitable renovation (which would likely be a "retrofit" at that point) by the time the current lease ends... The fact that the lease established a committee to explore stadium possibilities in the future is a positive sign, IMO.

-Bill

WagonCircler

05-06-2014, 03:57 PM

You're really jumping to conclusions. The reason for the trust is really quite obvious- to protect the interests of the beneficiary, Mary. Mary owns the team but she's in her 80's and she's probably not able to pass judgment on a pile of 1B offers. .

Hahahaha!!!!

In lieu of facts? Just make some up! Mary Wilson is 68 years old.

She's quite capable of managing not to be hoodwinked. She retains all of Ralph's attorneys, advisers and financial people. No need to appoint them to a trust. Their paid to look out for the estate's interests.

There's something more to this trust, or it would be completely superfluous.

I'm jumping to conclusions? What conclusions? I've explained three or four times in this thread alone that the conclusion I draw from this is that the Bills are not legally confined to accepting the highest bid. Period. This is now an established FACT.

This is not a bankruptcy proceeding, nor is the sale of an asset left without a will. Mary Wilson owns the team. She has options. That's an ironclad conclusion--no jump necessary.

Here are other things I understand:

1. There is no shortage of potential local owners who have the interest and the financial means to buy the team. This is not debatable. It's a fact.

2. The current, recently established lease is punitive in more ways than one, to any potential buyer who would move the team out of WNY. This is a fact.

3. Their is great political interest, at the state level with Gov. Cuomo and many others and at the Federal level with Sen. Schumer and others, in assuring that steps are taken to keep the team here. This is a widely established matter of public record.

4. The NFL has stated repeatedly its preference for not relocating franchises, and it is in their best interest to continue that policy. They're on very shaky anti-trust grounds already, and the owners stand to gain very little financially other than a relocation fee, if the team moves. Since a relocations fee would be pennies on the dollar when compared to a possible expansion fee, split evenly amongst the owners, they not only don't have a reason to risk legal action, they have a huge financial incentive to prevent a franchise from moving to a market (like Los Angeles) where they might put an expansion franchise in the near future.

I get paid by the hour, and not by anyone here, or I could go on and on with reasons for optimism. But the four above are all either reacts or establish, provable truths and are great reasons to be optimistic.

They are, in fact, mounting evidence. And there's much more, but I need to get back to work.

Please, by all means, continue your whining.

BLeonard

05-06-2014, 04:36 PM

Hahahaha!!!!

In lieu of facts? Just make some up! Mary Wilson is 68 years old.

She's quite capable of managing not to be hoodwinked. She retains all of Ralph's attorneys, advisers and financial people. No need to appoint them to a trust. Their paid to look out for the estate's interests.

There's something more to this trust, or it would be completely superfluous.

I'm jumping to conclusions? What conclusions? I've explained three or four times in this thread alone that the conclusion I draw from this is that the Bills are not legally confined to accepting the highest bid. Period. This is now an established FACT.

This is not a bankruptcy proceeding, nor is the sale of an asset left without a will. Mary Wilson owns the team. She has options. That's an ironclad conclusion--no jump necessary.

Here are other things I understand:

1. There is no shortage of potential local owners who have the interest and the financial means to buy the team. This is not debatable. It's a fact.

2. The current, recently established lease is punitive in more ways than one, to any potential buyer who would move the team out of WNY. This is a fact.

3. Their is great political interest, at the state level with Gov. Cuomo and many others and at the Federal level with Sen. Schumer and others, in assuring that steps are taken to keep the team here. This is a widely established matter of public record.

4. The NFL has stated repeatedly its preference for not relocating franchises, and it is in their best interest to continue that policy. They're on very shaky anti-trust grounds already, and the owners stand to gain very little financially other than a relocation fee, if the team moves. Since a relocations fee would be pennies on the dollar when compared to a possible expansion fee, split evenly amongst the owners, they not only don't have a reason to risk legal action, they have a huge financial incentive to prevent a franchise from moving to a market (like Los Angeles) where they might put an expansion franchise in the near future.

I get paid by the hour, and not by anyone here, or I could go on and on with reasons for optimism. But the four above are all either reacts or establish, provable truths and are great reasons to be optimistic.

They are, in fact, mounting evidence. And there's much more, but I need to get back to work.

Please, by all means, continue your whining.

There's not really anything I disagree with here and I'm not really trying to argue anything, because I think you're pretty spot on here.

The only question I have would be this: If "there's no good reason to have established the trust other than to see to it that the team remains local" as you claim, then why didn't Wilson simply take steps to keep the team local while he was alive, such as allowing a local Minority owner?

Hell, as I said in another thread, all this speculation could have been put to bed years ago, had Wilson given us some reason, ANY reason to believe that the team would remain in WNY after his passing.

Instead, all's we ever got was quotes like "Don't worry... For now" and "The next new owner couldn't keep the team here"... Why not simply say that there were things in place to help ensure that the team didn't move...?

Did he want the fear of the team moving to be on everyone's minds...? Did he want to be able to play the "relocation" card...? As I said in another thread, for a guy who was so against teams moving, he sure threatened it a lot...

I guess the only hangup I have is that, if this trust was formed to make sure that the team remains local, well, Wilson could have done that and probably more while he was living... Don't understand why he didn't.

-Bill

YardRat

05-06-2014, 04:49 PM

I'm not real thrilled about Littman being involved at all, but it would be foolish to not acknowledge that he would be...he's been Ralph's bean-counter for year. If I were to guess, he's probably just on the committee to make sure i's are dotted and t's are crossed from the beginning, instead of needlessly having to search for details elsewhere in the process.

Ralph wanted the team to stay in Buffalo, that much is clear, I really can't see a uber-loyal yes-man pulling anything that would be counter to Wilson's wishes posthumously.

YardRat

05-06-2014, 04:50 PM

There's not really anything I disagree with here and I'm not really trying to argue anything, because I think you're pretty spot on here.

The only question I have would be this: If "there's no good reason to have established the trust other than to see to it that the team remains local" as you claim, then why didn't Wilson simply take steps to keep the team local while he was alive, such as allowing a local Minority owner?

Hell, as I said in another thread, all this speculation could have been put to bed years ago, had Wilson given us some reason, ANY reason to believe that the team would remain in WNY after his passing.

Instead, all's we ever got was quotes like "Don't worry... For now" and "The next new owner couldn't keep the team here"... Why not simply say that there were things in place to help ensure that the team didn't move...?

Did he want the fear of the team moving to be on everyone's minds...? Did he want to be able to play the "relocation" card...? As I said in another thread, for a guy who was so against teams moving, he sure threatened it a lot...

I guess the only hangup I have is that, if this trust was formed to make sure that the team remains local, well, Wilson could have done that and probably more while he was living... Don't understand why he didn't.

-Bill

Why are you so damn hung up on Ralph pulling all the strings while he was alive? The man wanted to pass as owner of the team, it's really that simple, and certainly not hard to understand any reasons why.

WagonCircler

05-06-2014, 04:58 PM

I guess the only hangup I have is that, if this trust was formed to make sure that the team remains local, well, Wilson could have done that and probably more while he was living... Don't understand why he didn't.

-Bill

I've always wondered about that, too. But I've just assumed that there would be tax implications or just a personal preference on Ralph's part. He was a very quirky guy who proved more than once that he didn't like to be told what to do (by sending talented people packing or alienating them to the point that they left on their own).

I don't know, but like I said, I think someday we'll get the whole story, when all the legal wrangling is over.

BLeonard

05-06-2014, 05:15 PM

Why are you so damn hung up on Ralph pulling all the strings while he was alive? The man wanted to pass as owner of the team, it's really that simple, and certainly not hard to understand any reasons why.

...And, nothing I said or suggested would have prevented him from passing as the owner of the team...

Unless, there's some uber-secret NFL ownership rule that if you say anything to the affect of "I have taken steps to ensure the team remains in it's home city after my passing" forfeits your right to own the team that I'm not aware of...

My question is quite valid, one I'm betting many Bills fans are asking and if there was/is some sort of plan to keep the team in WNY after Ralph's passing, simply mentioning that would have had zero affect on anything regarding team ownership while Wilson was alive... Except that we likely be speculating much less than we are.

-Bill

BLeonard

05-06-2014, 05:21 PM

I've always wondered about that, too. But I've just assumed that there would be tax implications or just a personal preference on Ralph's part. He was a very quirky guy who proved more than once that he didn't like to be told what to do (by sending talented people packing or alienating them to the point that they left on their own).

I don't know, but like I said, I think someday we'll get the whole story, when all the legal wrangling is over.

Very plausible and again, I won't argue any of it...

You'd just think that he would have worried a bit more about alienating his customers (fans) by not providing them with the least bit of security regarding the team's future after he was gone...

I can only speak for myself, but I'm thinking a simple statement to alleviate worries of the team potentially leaving after his passing would have went a long way to a lot of fans...

-Bill

better days

05-06-2014, 10:24 PM

Very plausible and again, I won't argue any of it...

You'd just think that he would have worried a bit more about alienating his customers (fans) by not providing them with the least bit of security regarding the team's future after he was gone...

I can only speak for myself, but I'm thinking a simple statement to alleviate worries of the team potentially leaving after his passing would have went a long way to a lot of fans...

-Bill

With the ironclad lease in place, & now the news of the trust having to approve of the new owners despite the bid offered, I think most fans feel good about the Bills staying in Buffalo.

It is a SMALL minority of Bills FANS that think they will move at this point.

And I believe the vast majority of that small minority really wish they would move or at best are ambivalent about the Bills moving.

Bill Cody

05-06-2014, 10:42 PM

Hahahaha!!!!

In lieu of facts? Just make some up! Mary Wilson is 68 years old.

She's quite capable of managing not to be hoodwinked. She retains all of Ralph's attorneys, advisers and financial people. No need to appoint them to a trust. Their paid to look out for the estate's interests.

There's something more to this trust, or it would be completely superfluous.

Ralph didn't think so. That's why he created it. He might have trusted Mary but the trust adds extra security that sound business decisions are made. My wife's very smart but she's not used to the pressure of selling an NFl team. Neither is Mary. Good for Ralph though that's she's so young, didn't know that.

I'm jumping to conclusions? What conclusions? I've explained three or four times in this thread alone that the conclusion I draw from this is that the Bills are not legally confined to accepting the highest bid. Period. This is now an established FACT.
They never were. This trust arrangment changes nothing. They can sell it for $1 if they wish, it's just not smart business wise or tax wise. And Ralph was concerned about gettting a good deal for his heirs, otherwise he would have arranged something before he died as I've said all along and as BLeonard has pointed out. That's not whining. It's based on a concern about the team moving. Get it?

This is not a bankruptcy proceeding, nor is the sale of an asset left without a will. Mary Wilson owns the team. She has options. That's an ironclad conclusion--no jump necessary.
Not sure who you're arguing with about this, noone said she didn't have options.

Here are other things I understand:

1. There is no shortage of potential local owners who have the interest and the financial means to buy the team. This is not debatable. It's a fact.

So what? There's rich folks everywhere. We still have to wait and see who bids what no?

2. The current, recently established lease is punitive in more ways than one, to any potential buyer who would move the team out of WNY. This is a fact. I agree with this. It's a big plus. Said so as soon as this was announced

3. Their is great political interest, at the state level with Gov. Cuomo and many others and at the Federal level with Sen. Schumer and others, in assuring that steps are taken to keep the team here. This is a widely established matter of public record. Also good stuff. My concern is the lease is not really that long. A group could buy the team, mouth the right things, and wait out the lease. Farfetched? Maybe but not crazy either.

4. The NFL has stated repeatedly its preference for not relocating franchises, and it is in their best interest to continue that policy. They're on very shaky anti-trust grounds already, and the owners stand to gain very little financially other than a relocation fee, if the team moves. Since a relocations fee would be pennies on the dollar when compared to a possible expansion fee, split evenly amongst the owners, they not only don't have a reason to risk legal action, they have a huge financial incentive to prevent a franchise from moving to a market (like Los Angeles) where they might put an expansion franchise in the near future.
The NFL cannot stop a team from moving. This has been proven repeatedly. If not for the lease agreement in Foxboro James Orthwein would have moved the Patriots to St. Louis. Fact.

I get paid by the hour, and not by anyone here, or I could go on and on with reasons for optimism. But the four above are all either reacts or establish, provable truths and are great reasons to be optimistic.

They are, in fact, mounting evidence. And there's much more, but I need to get back to work.

You're taking this the wrong way. I'm not whining. BLeonard is not whining. We're just not in the business of counting chickens that haven't hatched yet. There is defeinetely cause for optimism because of the lease. But the rest is seeing stuff you want to see. I don't blame you for that. Just saying, it's done when it's done.

BLeonard

05-06-2014, 11:33 PM

With the ironclad lease in place, & now the news of the trust having to approve of the new owners despite the bid offered, I think most fans feel good about the Bills staying in Buffalo.

It is a SMALL minority of Bills FANS that think they will move at this point.

And I believe the vast majority of that small minority really wish they would move or at best are ambivalent about the Bills moving.

That's all well and good now...

Again, my question is, if this was the "plan" all along, why didn't fans, at the very least get a bit of reassurance that there was something in place to keep the team in WNY after his passing...?

A simple statement saying something to the effect of "I have taken (or will take) steps to ensure the team remains in WNY after my passing" would have went a long way with me personally and I'm betting would have went a long way with many other Bills fans.

-Bill

YardRat

05-07-2014, 05:23 AM

That's all well and good now...

Again, my question is, if this was the "plan" all along, why didn't fans, at the very least get a bit of reassurance that there was something in place to keep the team in WNY after his passing...?

A simple statement saying something to the effect of "I have taken (or will take) steps to ensure the team remains in WNY after my passing" would have went a long way with me personally and I'm betting would have went a long way with many other Bills fans.

-Bill

Because there is nothing more one can do to 'ensure' that the team remains in Buffalo. Hell, it can still be moved if a new favorable lease (read:new stadium) isn't resolved in the next 7-10 years. If he sold it prior to his death, the new owner would still have the leverage of moving unless progress is made on the facilities. I don't care if Jim Kelly himself bought the team outright, if you think new lease/stadium won't be dangled as leverage in the future, regardless of who the owner is, that's just naive.

Fletch

05-07-2014, 08:16 AM

To be fair, counties and states always cry poor, but, in most cases, when it comes to building a stadium to prevent a team from moving, they find a way to get it done more often than not...

In recent years, NYS has contributed in building stadiums for the Mets and Yankees and I believe they even had a hand in helping with MetLife Stadium... if they can do all that, I'm pretty sure they'll find a way to get it done for the Bills, especially considering the fact that the Bills are the only NFL team in the State of New York... It'd look pretty bad if they couldn't help an in-state team, but could help the Jersey Giants and Jets.

That's all in the middle of NYC, the biggest metropolitan area in the country if not the world and the financial center of the world. Buffalo's on the other end of the spectrum despite sharing a state. The county has been unable to assist further with renovations, how are they going to pitch and afford a new stadium costing I don't know how many times a much, at least their share, and there will be a share for them.

Pretty sure that a few owners have said that the team should stay in WNY... I recall hearing about it, but can't really find anything online. Either way, what they say and how they vote are two completely different things.

Pretty sure that's what Wagon is saying here... Due to the trust having to vote on it, they could vote to sell to someone that is not necessarily the highest bidder.

As for the second part (why didn't Wilson set that up while he was still alive) that's kinda what I've been wondering... If he wanted to make sure the team stayed in WNY, he could have allowed a minority owner (Pretty sure Jim Kelly asked him about it many times) that would have greatly increased the chances of that happening.

But again, that's just wishing and hoping. Regarding these things, most NFL fans don't want to see teams moved. Baltimore was a more viable city than Buffalo by a huge margin, and look what happened to them. Don't start comparing our team or city to theirs, all I'm saying is that talk is cheap and sentiment traditionally reigns.

As to Kelly and Wilson, I remember reading somewhere, or it may have come from a friend with family members that are friends with the Kellys, I can't remember where, but it was that Kelly was told to shut up essentially and quit being vocal about organizing an effort to keep the team in Buffalo by pushing an ownership group. We can discount that all we want, but Kelly was always vocal and since that time I never heard another peep out of him on the topic. The reason provided was that Kelly was still employed by the Bills as a representative and therefore had to heed "team" orders. That doesn't jibe with what you suggested if true.

The only thing I can come up with to answer that would be, for some reason, he wanted everyone to be uncertain of the team's future after his passing...

Personally, I don't think the team will leave, especially not before the lease expires. On top of the parts of the "ironclad" lease that make it very difficult to move, the NFL also has relocation rules: http://www.leg.state.mn.us/webcontent/lrl/issues/FootballStadium/NFLFranchiseRelocationRules.pdf

If you ask me, Wilson's not selling was purely self-centered. I don't want to say selfish because it was his team to do with what he wanted while he was alive. But him repeatedly telling us directly or later on via representatives that he was and had done all that he could do to keep the team in Buffalo was clearly a crock-of-crap. It also makes him a liar.

As to the moving teams, the NFL also has rules for existing stadiums and our stadium does not live up to modern standards and even a renovation won't resolve that long-term. Teams have moved before simply to get a new stadium that wasn't even necessary. Nowadays the NFL mandates certain criteria for stadiums which if not met end up becoming showstoppers.

IMO whether or not the Bills move, and maybe even when, will be directly connected to which place is willing to build the best stadium. Think about it, what's the first carrot that prospective owners dangle to lure a team to move? ... it's always a new stadium.

Can WNY afford a new stadium? I don't see how, but hey, why stop putting our municipalities into terminal debt now I suppose.

In short, NYS and Erie County better not dilly-dally with getting the Bills a new stadium, or agree on a suitable renovation (which would likely be a "retrofit" at that point) by the time the current lease ends... The fact that the lease established a committee to explore stadium possibilities in the future is a positive sign, IMO. -Bill

Agree on the dilly-dallying, but I don't share the same optimism regarding a simple committee to "explore" possibilities. Part of that "exploration" will necessarily be where the money comes from, and we'll see how that plays out. But if Ontario/Toronto dangles the money to build in front of that committee, or another owner with a desire to move the team, then I think it would be unwise to consider that that wouldn't be a factor.

I also don't see a retrofit cutting the mustard these days, IF, there are other interests that would be willing to build a new stadium elsewhere.

We'll see, but I expect that as more time passes from Wilson's passing, maybe another month or so, that we'll start hearing about other people interested in buying the team that don't necessarily share the same passion about leaving it here.

Fletch

05-07-2014, 08:21 AM

Hell, as I said in another thread, all this speculation could have been put to bed years ago, had Wilson given us some reason, ANY reason to believe that the team would remain in WNY after his passing.

Instead, all's we ever got was quotes like "Don't worry... For now" and "The next new owner couldn't keep the team here"... Why not simply say that there were things in place to help ensure that the team didn't move...?

Did he want the fear of the team moving to be on everyone's minds...? Did he want to be able to play the "relocation" card...? As I said in another thread, for a guy who was so against teams moving, he sure threatened it a lot...

I guess the only hangup I have is that, if this trust was formed to make sure that the team remains local, well, Wilson could have done that and probably more while he was living... Don't understand why he didn't.

-Bill

Completely agree here. IMO Wilson used the team moving to assist with ticket sales.

Everyone views Wilson as this magnanimous guy (to Buffalonians that is) who despite having had other options decided to plant his team, one that he bought for a song, in Buffalo only because Detroit, his home, never Buffalo, because A) Detroit already had a team, and B) Buffalo made the most geographic and business sense for him personally as the owner of that team/business.

Fletch

05-07-2014, 08:23 AM

Ralph wanted the team to stay in Buffalo, that much is clear, I really can't see a uber-loyal yes-man pulling anything that would be counter to Wilson's wishes posthumously.

I don't see the evidence for that. He did while he was alive, but if he cared about it being here after his death he could easily have arranged for it.

He did not. I don't see how you connect the two dots.

Fletch

05-07-2014, 08:25 AM

Why are you so damn hung up on Ralph pulling all the strings while he was alive? The man wanted to pass as owner of the team, it's really that simple, and certainly not hard to understand any reasons why.

No, it's not hard to understand why. What many of us have an issue with is his assuring us that when he died that he had done all that he could to keep the team here when that's clearly a lie.

If you ask me, Ralph did what was financially and personally expedient for Ralph, and all this talk about what a great friend of Buffalonians he was, is a complete crock of crap as a result.

As they say, don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining.

Fletch

05-07-2014, 08:30 AM

Because there is nothing more one can do to 'ensure' that the team remains in Buffalo. Hell, it can still be moved if a new favorable lease (read:new stadium) isn't resolved in the next 7-10 years. If he sold it prior to his death, the new owner would still have the leverage of moving unless progress is made on the facilities. I don't care if Jim Kelly himself bought the team outright, if you think new lease/stadium won't be dangled as leverage in the future, regardless of who the owner is, that's just naive.

The difference would be owners committed to keeping the team around despite the hardships vice having owners that would only look at it from a business perspective. Not that that ever happens with the uberwealthy. (sarasm)

Seems as if you're now saying that it's all going to revolve around a stadium and who and where will build the nicest and most state-of-the-art one, and renovating won't cut it by a longshot then.

I would agree with that.

Cleve

05-07-2014, 02:33 PM

Also, anything involving Jeff Littmann having a say doesn't exactly consume me with optimism.

For my money, one of the reasons the Bills are such a terrible football team is that guys like Littmann have had too much say and control of the team for too many years.

Plus, wasn't this the guy who helped squeeze Bill Polian out? Of course, that is on Ralph Wilson - nobody told him to choose a friggin' dime a dozen bean-counter over a great GM, which is a far rarer commodity.

WagonCircler

05-07-2014, 02:35 PM

For my money, one of the reasons the Bills are such a terrible football team is that guys like Littmann have had too much say and control of the team for too many years.

Plus, wasn't this the guy who helped squeeze Bill Polian out? Of course, that is on Ralph Wilson - nobody told him to choose a friggin' dime a dozen bean-counter over a great GM, which is a far rarer commodity.

I hate Littman. Every Bills fan does. But this is about Littman getting the fahk out.

Littman carried out Ralph's wishes while he was alive, or he wouldn't have gotten to stick around for so long. All we can do is hope that he's still going to carry out Ralph's wishes.

YardRat

05-07-2014, 05:02 PM

Completely agree here. IMO Wilson used the team moving to assist with ticket sales.

Everyone views Wilson as this magnanimous guy (to Buffalonians that is) who despite having had other options decided to plant his team, one that he bought for a song, in Buffalo only because Detroit, his home, never Buffalo, because A) Detroit already had a team, and B) Buffalo made the most geographic and business sense for him personally as the owner of that team/business.

Yes, of course except for the fact that his first choice was actually Miami, so B is just a statement made out of ignorance or spite.

I don't see the evidence for that. He did while he was alive, but if he cared about it being here after his death he could easily have arranged for it.

He did not. I don't see how you connect the two dots.

He did arrange for in the best manner he could, while still passing as owner of the team. The dots are easy to connect, because they are obvious...except for those clutching on their axes in hopes of continuing to grind.

No, it's not hard to understand why. What many of us have an issue with is his assuring us that when he died that he had done all that he could to keep the team here when that's clearly a lie.

If you ask me, Ralph did what was financially and personally expedient for Ralph, and all this talk about what a great friend of Buffalonians he was, is a complete crock of crap as a result.

As they say, don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining.

If you think someone is pissing down your neck when it's raining, that's called paranoia. No, it isn't a lie. Financially expedient would be to simply put the team up to the highest bidder, with no present lease qualifiers or restrictions. Yes, he did well for WNY by keeping the team all of these years...something the majority of the original AFL teams can't claim.