I live in Nevada and have been a Bills fan since 8

[DesertFox24]

Look I will be honest I have never lived in NY State, I have relatives near Albany and in the City but I myself have never lived in the state. Spent a lot of summers there with my grandparents and such but my dad was military so we moved a lot.

I make no bones about why I am a bills fan, I was young, they were awesome, and I loved their uniforms and the personalities on the team. Bruce Smith is my favorite Bill of all time, and Stevie was/is my favorite bill since the glory days finished. I am not putting in the same class as our HOFs, just saying since they left/retired I have not liked a Bills player as much as Stevie.

That being said I lived in South Carolina since I graduated college and now live in Nevada. I have no attachments to the city of Buffalo and this is the point of the first two paragraphs.

That being said if the Bills move from Buffalo to ANYWHERE Toronto or even LA (which is close to me 8 or 9 hour drive) I will not be a fan of the team. Even if they somehow keep the name Bills I will not be a fan of them anymore and will probably not be a fan of pro football in general.

I will watch pro football but it will never be the same it will be equivalent to how I watch college football - I will jsut watch the big games and if I have other plans oh well. (I went to an FCS school in the south and route for them but they are never on TV, even when I lived in the same city never on TV).

Anyway I know this is something none of us want to talk about but if that jack A$$ jovi buys the team and moves to LA or TO what will you do. What if they keep the Bills name and all the history or if they have to change it. When the Ravens moved they lost all the history, when the Cardinals moved they kept all their history that is what is meant by that.

[OpIv37]

I grew up in Rochester and started watching football during the Bills' heyday. Bruce Smith is also my all-time favorite player, although pretty much everyone on the team was likeable back then.

When the Bills were winning, it engulfed the entire region. When the Bills won, it was a weeklong party. When the Bills lost, it was this wave of melancholy that just hung in the air until Thursday, when people started thinking about the next game. And it's not just the locals who feel it. Greg "Opie" Hughes, from the Opie and Anthony show, grew up in Long Island but went to Geneseo and did radio in Buffalo and Rochester before making it on his own. He said the exact same thing from his time in the region.

The Bills meant a lot to the region, and while it was more exciting when they were winning, they still do. I haven't lived in WNY since 2001 and likely never will again, as my brothers and parents have also moved out and my extended family isn't from the area. I've remained a Bills fan all that time, at great inconvenience and expense, despite all the struggles. The only thing that will ever make me cease being a fan is if they move (and by that I mean leaving the area- I really don't care if they move downtown or to NF or Batavia as long as it's still close enough to be the Buffalo Bills).

I'm in Baltimore now, so if that ever happens, I'll be a half-assed Ravens fan because I can watch them for free. I won't buy any merch or follow the team through the whole off-season like I do now. And I'll curse whatever team the Bills become and root for them to lose every game, even against the Patriots and Fish.

[swiper]

I grew up in Niagara County. I had a great childhood there. Wouldn't trade it in for anything. Picked up as a Bills fan around age 8 or so. One of my very first memories of football was the 1972 Superbowl - the Dolphins beat the Redskins to have a perfect season.

If the Bills left Buffalo I would be heartbroken. So many good people there. So many loyal Bills fans. Wouldn't be right. I always hoped I'd see a Super Bowl victory parade down Main Street in Buffalo before I died. Can't imagine in on Yonge Street.

[BADTHINGSMAN]

I'm a Bills fan because they are the home team. Take them from Buffalo and they become nothing to me. The history of the franchise IMO will mean nothing if the Bills are not the Buffalo Bills. I was 8-11 years old during the 90's Bills success. Watching with my Dad, not understanding much of the game but knowing the Bills were the home team, the good guys. Those memories will last, but wont be the same if the Bills move.

[better days]

I seriously doubt Bills fans have to worry about the Bills moving.

Toronto has a much bigger population, but it is composed of many immigrants which have no love of the NFL.

Even long time Canadians have no real passion for the NFL, Hockey is their sport.

The NFL would be a DISTANT 2nd in Toronto to the Leafs.

[LVGrown]

I was born, raised and still live in Vegas and have zero ties to Buffalo, NY with the exception of my love for the Bills. I've never been within a thousand miles of NY for that matter. I became a fan during the Redskins Superbowl, everyone else was rooting for the Skins and me being the little rebel I was rooted for the underdog. So began my love hate relationship with a team I had no business falling in love with. I learned everything I know about football from my uncle a die-hard LA Rams fan. I watched him go through the devastation of his boys moving and admired the way he stuck with them. I've often wondered if I could be as faithful as he has been and I've realized the answer is yes, I might even smile if they moved to LA because I would buy season tickets as quick as I could enter my debit card info. I'd never wish or want for that though because I put myself in the shoes of all of you locals and can only imagine how scary it must be to think of your city without the Bills. I want my Bills to stay in Buffalo and have all the confidence that they will.

[Oaf]

The Bills moving might be a good thing for my sanity. I'd still be interested, but probably in a more detached way. Might be good if we stay a perennial 6-10'er.

[Beebe]

I'm born and raised in Los Angeles I became a BILLS fan in 1988 I was 8, I loved their uniforms, and everybody in my family is either a Raiders fan or Cowboys fan. So you can imagine the 4 superbowls, I even have a tattoo of the my BILLS on my right arm to show my love for my BILLS and I got the tattoo so that I could never change teams. I've never been to Buffalo the closest I've been there is when I was in Chicago and that's when my grandmother past away,everybody here tells me hey what if the BILLS come here wouldn't you be happy? And I say I don't know, but the truth of the matter is that L.A. deserves a new team not a team that has a great history and great fans and no I don't want them to move keep them there.This year we win the Superbowl, I say that every year no matter who we have, and I will always say it.Let's go BUFFALO!!!

[Beebe]

Oh yeah I forgot to mention that everybody in my family calls me (Beebe) because I would always talk about him and his speed and every time we played football that's what they would call me because I was the fastest guy in our team and funny thing is that when I was 14 I got shot on my left eye with a BB gun and I'm half blind from that eye so everybody said I was meant for that nick name. LOL

[swiper]

Don Beebe = white lightning

[ghz in pittsburgh]

I'm not sure Toronto is a serious threat. LA might be.

Big time sports have a unique common theme: television driven. Look around: soccer (globally), #1 TV ratings. NFL, MLB, MBA are proof. Soccer in US is not big time because people don't watch it on TV enough.

Unfortunately for Toronto, NFL TV ratings won't be included. It's still US domestic driven. Yes NFL is still trying to get into the international market, but until other countries start to play the same sports and have serious following of the sports, it's not going to work very well.

[coastal]

I'd be done with the NFL period. Close to that decision anyways.

[Turf]

I grew up throwing a football to myself and diving for it on my bed, pretending I was Albert Dubenion, or Lamonica, or Kemp. No, there's only one Buffalo Bills.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I grew up in Los Angeles, live about 90 miles away, and I still wouldn't want the Bills there.

[bleve]

I grew up throwing a football to myself and diving for it on my bed, pretending I was Albert Dubenion, or Lamonica, or Kemp. No, there's only one Buffalo Bills.

When I was a kid, when I used to play pick-up football wearing a white T-shirt with a "44" stuck on it with electrical tape. (By the way, it's Elbert :-) )

As, yes, I would stop watching NFL period should the Bills ever leave.

[Night Train]

I grew up throwing a football to myself and diving for it on my bed, pretending I was Albert Dubenion, or Lamonica, or Kemp. No, there's only one Buffalo Bills.


Ditto. My first Bills game at the Rockpile was 1965. We were the best team in the AFL at that time. I shook hands with Sestak, Shaw, Kemp and many others from that era, which bonds you to them for life.

From everything I'm hearing, they look like they're sticking around for a long time to continue to drive us nuts.

I realize this will crush the ego's of many who have been moving us out of town on the internet for 15 years... but you'll just have to deal with your failed prophecy.

[DesertFox24]

I was born, raised and still live in Vegas and have zero ties to Buffalo, NY with the exception of my love for the Bills. I've never been within a thousand miles of NY for that matter. I became a fan during the Redskins Superbowl, everyone else was rooting for the Skins and me being the little rebel I was rooted for the underdog. So began my love hate relationship with a team I had no business falling in love with. I learned everything I know about football from my uncle a die-hard LA Rams fan. I watched him go through the devastation of his boys moving and admired the way he stuck with them. I've often wondered if I could be as faithful as he has been and I've realized the answer is yes, I might even smile if they moved to LA because I would buy season tickets as quick as I could enter my debit card info. I'd never wish or want for that though because I put myself in the shoes of all of you locals and can only imagine how scary it must be to think of your city without the Bills. I want my Bills to stay in Buffalo and have all the confidence that they will.

Hey man I live in Reno you know any good sports bars in reno or Las Vegas that are bills bars. Sometimes end up in Vegas for long weekends.

[DesertFox24]

I had season tickets for two years when we lived in South Carolina and got to see Bruce go on wall of fame. Was a great experience. Also great game. That was the game trentative brought us back against the raiders. My first bills home game was the Monday night against Dallas and my wife became a fan. I recommend all non locals to go to one bills home game especially at the Ralph it is a great experience and worth it.

[BuffaloRedleg]

I grew up in Los Angeles, live about 90 miles away, and I still wouldn't want the Bills there.

Come on you have to give us more than that. What's the story?

[BuffaloRedleg]

During my 8 years in the Army (which end July 1st) it would be impossible to overstate how important the Bills have been to me. I wear the colors with pride and I take it absolutely personal every time someone makes fun of us. It makes me a target, but then I ask them to name 2 offensive lineman on their Cowboys/Packers/Patriots and they usually back off. It has been my identity in a lot of ways, I put Bills **** up all over in my office and I make a point to talk about them whenever possible. It's fun and it reminds me that even in Iraq/Afghanistan/Germany/Oklahoma/Alaska I'm still a Buffalonian always.

I would piss on the grave of the person who moved our team. I'm not kidding. The things that he will have robbed people for a bunch of ****ing LA lushes and Toronto who-gives-a-damns is a crime and I will wait to he is dead, and I will find his grave, and I will piss on it. Little dramatic I know, but us little guys gotta get ours too in the world that is run by those who give zero ****s about us.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Come on you have to give us more than that. What's the story?

My family is from Buffalo and I was born there, though we left when I was a baby. I root for the city, not the franchise. If the Bills moved to LA, they wouldn't be the same team even if it was the same roster. Even though I grew up in LA, I don't have that hometown loyalty to it.

[better days]

My family is from Buffalo and I was born there, though we left when I was a baby. I root for the city, not the franchise. If the Bills moved to LA, they wouldn't be the same team even if it was the same roster. Even though I grew up in LA, I don't have that hometown loyalty to it.

And people talk about the large TV market LA would be with a team.

Well, I would bet people in LA are ALREADY watching the NFL on Sundays.

How many more people would watch an LA team?

I would bet less than the number of Bills fans that would stop watching the NFL if the Bills moved.

[OpIv37]

You keep saying that people in LA already watch football- have you ever looked at the ratings to see if that's actually true?

[justasportsfan]

You keep saying that people in LA already watch football- have you ever looked at the ratings to see if that's actually true?

I think telemundo gets higher rating over there.

[better days]

You keep saying that people in LA already watch football- have you ever looked at the ratings to see if that's actually true?

Well, I just googled it because of your post.

According to Variety & Forbes, the NFL does NOT need a team in LA.

As I said, the NFL already draws a large audience from LA.

[JoeMama]

I've never lived within a thousand miles of Buffalo.

Makes no difference. If the Bills leave Buffalo, I'm done.

[Dr. Lecter]

Well, I just googled it because of your post.

According to Variety & Forbes, the NFL does NOT need a team in LA.

As I said, the NFL already draws a large audience from LA.

They want a team in LA not for TV ratings, but to attract advertisers and big money locally into a team

[better days]

They want a team in LA not for TV ratings, but to attract advertisers and big money locally into a team

Why? That money would go to the local owner, not the other NFL owners.

[Dr. Lecter]

But it increases the value of the NFL.

[better days]

But it increases the value of the NFL.


If the NFL alienates its fan base by moving a team with a LONG history & a PASSIONATE fan base like the Buffalo Bills, the value of the NFL will do nothing but go down.

Just look at the NBA ratings today. NOBODY cares about the NBA anymore.

The same could happen to the NFL.

[DraftBoy]

If the NFL alienates its fan base by moving a team with a LONG history & a PASSIONATE fan base like the Buffalo Bills, the value of the NFL will do nothing but go down.

Just look at the NBA ratings today. NOBODY cares about the NBA anymore.

The same could happen to the NFL.

NBA ratings are up as well they just had the 3rd most watched CF game ever the other night.

[Dr. Lecter]

If the NFL alienates its fan base by moving a team with a LONG history & a PASSIONATE fan base like the Buffalo Bills, the value of the NFL will do nothing but go down.

Just look at the NBA ratings today. NOBODY cares about the NBA anymore.

The same could happen to the NFL.
A franchise in LA is worth more than a franchise in Buffalo.

[better days]

NBA ratings are up as well they just had the 3rd most watched CF game ever the other night.

LMAO. The NFL draft drew a MUCH BIGGER rating than NBA PLAYOFF games.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

If the NFL alienates its fan base by moving a team with a LONG history & a PASSIONATE fan base like the Buffalo Bills, the value of the NFL will do nothing but go down.

Just look at the NBA ratings today. NOBODY cares about the NBA anymore.

The same could happen to the NFL.

Like it went down when they moved the Oilers or the Browns?

The NBA ratings didn't decline because of relocation.

[BuffaloRedleg]

Like it went down when they moved the Oilers or the Browns?

The NBA ratings didn't decline because of relocation.

Times have changed.

If the Browns moved today it would be an social networking PR nightmare. The NFL just doesn't need to take that risk, they can create wealth elsewhere with much lower risk.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Times have changed.

If the Browns moved today it would be an social networking PR nightmare. The NFL just doesn't need to take that risk, they can create wealth elsewhere with much lower risk.

Again, the NBA's ratings did not decline because of relocation. The Sonics moved in 2008 and the backlash only lasted a few months. Now OKC is one of the top draw teams. The NFL would certainly face some kind of backlash, but it wouldn't last very long and it certainly wouldn't knock the NFL from the top seat in American sports.

[better days]

Again, the NBA's ratings did not decline because of relocation. The Sonics moved in 2008 and the backlash only lasted a few months. Now OKC is one of the top draw teams. The NFL would certainly face some kind of backlash, but it wouldn't last very long and it certainly wouldn't knock the NFL from the top seat in American sports.

Back when the Browns moved, the backlash was so great, the NFL kept the Browns history & Colors in Cleveland & agreed to give them a new team.

And this was before the Social media that exists today. I really don't think the NFL wants anything to do with the ramifications moving the Bills would involve if it can be avoided.

And Mark Murphy, President of the Packers said there are not enough votes to get the Bills to move.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Back when the Browns moved, the backlash was so great, the NFL kept the Browns history & Colors in Cleveland & agreed to give them a new team.

Only after the city agreed to give the team a new Stadium.


And this was before the Social media that exists today. I really don't think the NFL wants anything to do with the ramifications moving the Bills would involve if it can be avoided.

And Mark Murphy, President of the Packers said there are not enough votes to get the Bills to move.

Of course the NFL would like to avoid bad PR, but I think you are overstating the amount of bad PR moving a team would cause, and how much that would affect the NFL's bottom line. And the proposals for the Bills have not been finalized, all we have are rumors to this point. I'm hoping the out clause in the stadium lease is enough to dissuade potential relocations.

[better days]

Only after the city agreed to give the team a new Stadium.



Of course the NFL would like to avoid bad PR, but I think you are overstating the amount of bad PR moving a team would cause, and how much that would affect the NFL's bottom line. And the proposals for the Bills have not been finalized, all we have are rumors to this point. I'm hoping the out clause in the stadium lease is enough to dissuade potential relocations.

Yes, Goodell already said the Bills need a new Stadium.

Plans are in the works to get that done in the Buffalo area.

As soon as the new owner is announced, we will know his intentions in regards to keeping the Bills in Buffalo or moving them

[OpIv37]

If the NFL alienates its fan base by moving a team with a LONG history & a PASSIONATE fan base like the Buffalo Bills, the value of the NFL will do nothing but go down.

Just look at the NBA ratings today. NOBODY cares about the NBA anymore.

The same could happen to the NFL.

Cardinals moved from Chicago to AZ
Raiders moved from Oakland to LA back to Oakland
Rams moved from St Louis to LA back to St Louis
Colts moved from Baltimore to Indy
Browns moved from Cleveland to Baltimore
Oilers moved from Houston to TN.

The NFL is still waiting for that bad PR to hurt their bottom line.....

Sure some people might be annoyed but the reality is that the only ones who will stop spending money and watching games if the Bills move are Bills fans. And we're a passionate fan base but not a wealthy one. We have the cheapest ticket prices and fewest luxury boxes in the NFL. The NFL will have a hard time getting the same level of passion from fans in a new location for the Bills. They won't have a hard time making up the revenue.

[Dr. Who]

Frankly, all you "hard-bitten" realists disgust me. When mankind makes its decisions purely according to the calculus of homo economicus, something essential to civilization has vanished. Ultimately, the NFL will destroy itself if it becomes blind and deaf to the romance of place and the commitment that spans generations. No doubt, an economic machine can dismiss Buffalo with complete lack of feeling. Human beings diminish themselves when they act like that. Those who applaud them or just say "that's the way it is" tacitly grease the wheels. A decent person would protest.

I think there is still enough old guard decency in the NFL to keep the Bills in Buffalo. If they go, one thing I won't miss is rubbing message board shoulders with boorish souls.

[OpIv37]

Frankly, all you "hard-bitten" realists disgust me. When mankind makes its decisions purely according to the calculus of homo economicus, something essential to civilization has vanished. Ultimately, the NFL will destroy itself if it becomes blind and deaf to the romance of place and the commitment that spans generations. No doubt, an economic machine can dismiss Buffalo with complete lack of feeling. Human beings diminish themselves when they act like that. Those who applaud them or just say "that's the way it is" tacitly grease the wheels. A decent person would protest.

I think there is still enough old guard decency in the NFL to keep the Bills in Buffalo. If they go, one thing I won't miss is rubbing message board shoulders with boorish souls.

Protest all you want. It'll give you that "warm-and-fuzzy" feeling and that sense of moral superiority that you crave, but without doing any real work. And it won't make a lick of difference because the NFL is a private organization and no one can force them to consider the emotional impact moving a team will have on WNY or Bills fans.

And btw, I agree with the bolded part and have said similar things myself. The NFL is sacrificing the lifelong, die-hard fan like me in favor of the corporate fan. As recently as the 1990's, it was all about following the local team on TV, having a father take his family to the games, etc, hence developing a lifelong affinity between the fan and the team.

Now, it's different. Technology allows people to follow any team from anywhere. Fantasy football means there are a lot of football fans with no team loyalty whatsoever- they only care about the handful of players on their fantasy team. Meanwhile, the NFL is passing rules to make games more "family-friendly" by cracking down on the partying, but then setting ticket prices so high that working- and middle- class families get priced out.

Look no further than the Washington Redskins. Go to a game. You don't see a lot of families. You see people standing outside of tour buses eating sushi provided by caterers until 30 min after the game starts. You see young congressional staffers from all over America at the game to be seen there, more concerned with responding to emails on their smart phones than watching the game. Meanwhile lifelong Skins fan with 3 kids in northeast DC can't afford to take his kids to the game, and the kids are watching the Ravens on TV anyway because they don't suck like the Redskins do. DC has lost a generation of fans. I think the NFL is being short-sighted by going after the short term corporate dollar over long-term affinity for the team, because those corporate bandwagon-jumpers aren't going to be there when the team goes through a 14 year playoff drought, like we are. But, they are on a reckless pursuit of every possible dollar and don't show any signs of stopping to think about the consequences any time soon.

[Dr. Who]

Protest all you want. It'll give you that "warm-and-fuzzy" feeling and that sense of moral superiority that you crave, but without doing any real work. And it won't make a lick of difference because the NFL is a private organization and no one can force them to consider the emotional impact moving a team will have on WNY or Bills fans.

And btw, I agree with the bolded part and have said similar things myself. The NFL is sacrificing the lifelong, die-hard fan like me in favor of the corporate fan. As recently as the 1990's, it was all about following the local team on TV, having a father take his family to the games, etc, hence developing a lifelong affinity between the fan and the team.

Now, it's different. Technology allows people to follow any team from anywhere. Fantasy football means there are a lot of football fans with no team loyalty whatsoever- they only care about the handful of players on their fantasy team. Meanwhile, the NFL is passing rules to make games more "family-friendly" by cracking down on the partying, but then setting ticket prices so high that working- and middle- class families get priced out.

Look no further than the Washington Redskins. Go to a game. You don't see a lot of families. You see people standing outside of tour buses eating sushi provided by caterers until 30 min after the game starts. You see young congressional staffers from all over America at the game to be seen there, more concerned with responding to emails on their smart phones than watching the game. Meanwhile lifelong Skins fan with 3 kids in northeast DC can't afford to take his kids to the game, and the kids are watching the Ravens on TV anyway because they don't suck like the Redskins do. DC has lost a generation of fans. I think the NFL is being short-sighted by going after the short term corporate dollar over long-term affinity for the team, because those corporate bandwagon-jumpers aren't going to be there when the team goes through a 14 year playoff drought, like we are. But, they are on a reckless pursuit of every possible dollar and don't show any signs of stopping to think about the consequences any time soon.

Well, I agree with most of what you say. I don't like your relentless negativity -- it persists on almost all issues Buffalo Bills. That's your right, of course.
I don't crave moral superiority. I don't think naming evil where one sees it makes one a self-righteous crusader or needy. I leave it to God to make ultimate judgements. I certainly don't know myself well enough and when it comes down to it, I'm hoping for mercy for all of us. That doesn't change the obvious fact that there is a lot crudity in humanity and a lot of posturing on message boards offends my sense of decency. If that bothers you, too bad.

[swiper]

Well, I agree with most of what you say. I don't like your relentless negativity -- it persists on almost all issues Buffalo Bills. That's your right, of course.
I don't crave moral superiority. I don't think naming evil where one sees it makes one a self-righteous crusader or needy. I leave it to God to make ultimate judgements. I certainly don't know myself well enough and when it comes down to it, I'm hoping for mercy for all of us. That doesn't change the obvious fact that there is a lot crudity in humanity and a lot of posturing on message boards offends my sense of decency. If that bothers you, too bad.

You hate, yet you keep coming. Blah, blah, blah. Take your self-righteousness and put it where the sun doesn't shine. No one cares. The Bills haven't won anything worthwhile since at least 1998. Certainly those people you refer to as realists have a lot of merit in what they point out. If that bothers you, to bad.

The NFL is protean. The only constant is the ineptitudes of the Buffalo Bills. So complaining about the "realists" comes off as cheap and whiny.

[Dr. Who]

You hate, yet you keep coming. Blah, blah, blah. Take your self-righteousness and put it where the sun doesn't shine. No one cares. The Bills haven't won anything worthwhile since at least 1998. Certainly those people you refer to as realists have a lot of merit in what they point out. If that bothers you, to bad.

The NFL is protean. The only constant is the ineptitudes of the Buffalo Bills. So complaining about the "realists" comes off as cheap and whiny.

I don't mind invective if it is at least slightly clever. Keep trying.

[Fletch]

I seriously doubt Bills fans have to worry about the Bills moving.

Toronto has a much bigger population, but it is composed of many immigrants which have no love of the NFL.

Even long time Canadians have no real passion for the NFL, Hockey is their sport.

The NFL would be a DISTANT 2nd in Toronto to the Leafs.

Here's the problem with that, it's not so much that the Canadians want the NFL, although I've read conflicting reports on that, but the NFL is trying to forcefeed itself to the rest of the world. What, three games in England this year? As another poster put it, Football will never be as popular as soccer over in England, ever. Yet, the NFL still continues to try to impose its marketing will on them.

It's no secret that the NFL wants to be international. Football is already played professionally at a relatively high level in Canada, different rules aside. Mexico clearly ain't getting a team anytime soon, so the first logical step is in fact Canada.

What troubles me are two things.

First, no one with interests of moving the team is going to be speaking out right now. Those parties exists, they've been anonymously mentioned. Bon Jovi being among them despite the reports that he'd have to be a minority owner. So they're out there and will likely rear their heads at the appropriate time. We also do not know to what extent the NFL in general might want the team in Toronto or region, we simply don't know. Goodell has already said that we need a new stadium, and while he's publicly stated that he wants the team to remain in Buffalo (is he even being completely honest?). that could have been the bow shot that gives him an out to be able to support the move elsewhere.

Secondly, this team has played **** football for years. Often it's not even entertaining. We usually get two, three, maybe four entertaining games a season win or lose. Hell, I'd rather see us go 0-16 losing by 1-point every time than the crap we've been served up pretty much since shortly after Polian left.

The front office is a bunch of boobs and Whaley's no different although it's going to take a little longer to convince some people. If all that this team does for another 20 years is to continue this streak of futility, poor management, poor coaching, always scraping the bottom of the barrel for FO and coaching candidates, never really being competitive to the point of shame and embarassment, or at least what should be shame for the FO despite their lack of shame given their horrendous performance, then frankly I don't care if they move and end our misery now. In fact, and while this is hypothetical since there would be no way of confirming in hindsight, I'd rather have them move then to merely "have a team" even if that team sucks moose balls perennially.

The NFL is already on the cusp of driving many of its fans away and something like a 14 or even worse, a 16 team playoff, would probably push many over that edge. It would me.

Games have become far more unwatchable on TV due to the ridiculous amount of commercials, like most programs but worse. The game is literally designed arouind TV commercials.

What I'm waiting for is the announcement of who's going to be running this team in the future and whether or not they'll do whatever it takes to remain competitive. Right now Buffalo is and has been worse than Oakland and Jax in terms of futility despite their slightly higher overall revenue in 2112, but both teams netted significantly more than the Bills making me question whether or not Buffalo is capable of even supporting an NFL team under modern criteria. In fact, only two team netted less, Tampa and SF, but both of those teams had revenues well over $1B, in SF's case well over.

I want competitive football and a well run organization, if they can't deliver that, then I'm ambivalent as to whether or not they move. I was finished being one of Brandon's suckers years ago and even sent them a letter letting them know that. If this product were anything else the company would be bankrupt. No one would buy it. They keep the company afloat on unfulfilled promises and hopes that never materialize.

It's time for a change!

[Fletch]

Well, I agree with most of what you say. I don't like your relentless negativity -- it persists on almost all issues Buffalo Bills. ... That doesn't change the obvious fact that there is a lot crudity in humanity and a lot of posturing on message boards offends my sense of decency. If that bothers you, too bad.

So everything revolves around how you feel then? That's the message you're giving here.

The worst thing about these forums is the people that piss and moan about anyone that doesn't have positive things to say about this organization according to their beliefs despite the substantive positions put forth and the long established fact that the Bills are essentially the league's whipping boy as the most futile team in NFL history and in a running fashion and far from being over.

It's like sitting down to breakfast every day and finding a bunch of dirt in one's bowl of cereal. One must first pick out the dirt for several minutes before finally being able to eat a decent meal.

There's no substance, every year it's the same thing about how everyone should give people the benefit of the doubt and how it's all going to be different, and yet, when the people that perpetually point out the obvious, that we suck as a team, they take a rash for it.

You know what, ... you don't like it? ... talk to Brandon, Whaley, Wilson while he was alive, Nix, Levy, Donahoe (who was haled as a personnel genius by all prior to coming here before he fell flat on his face without the rest of the Steelers organization behind him), etc.

How many letters have you written to those people? Hmm?

Instead of taking positions like this with fellow posters that are merely pointing out the obvious, and usually bringing ten times the facts that those that take issue with it do, try considering that perhaps that's all that this **** team has given us to talk about.

While many people will sit and cheer for one or two players as if watching them compete well means that everyone's getting their money's worth, most of us would rather have the team come together and do what it's supposed to do, namely play competitive football and let the rest of the chips fall where they may. If we play competitive ball and lose 16 games by a point apiece, so be it. Not much to complain about overall. Clearly that wouldn't happen, just sayin'. It would at least be entertaining football unlike what we have now.

Instead we get gross incompetence, like Whaley's latest smarter-by-half attempt at proving that what's never been done before can be done in the NFL by trading up to draft a WR and then claiming that this is what will propel the team into the playoffs. It's called idiocy. It's also called ignorance.

idiocy:

: extreme stupidity
: something that is extremely stupid or foolish

And what, we're not supposed to point it out?

I think that what offends the sense of decency of those merely looking at the cards being held and realizing that all one can do is to fold, is Dewey Oxburger telling us to go on and bluff him.

If that bothers you, ... well then, to borrow your phrase, ... too bad.

[Fletch]

Protest all you want. It'll give you that "warm-and-fuzzy" feeling and that sense of moral superiority that you crave, but without doing any real work. And it won't make a lick of difference because the NFL is a private organization and no one can force them to consider the emotional impact moving a team will have on WNY or Bills fans.

And btw, I agree with the bolded part and have said similar things myself. The NFL is sacrificing the lifelong, die-hard fan like me in favor of the corporate fan. As recently as the 1990's, it was all about following the local team on TV, having a father take his family to the games, etc, hence developing a lifelong affinity between the fan and the team.

Now, it's different. Technology allows people to follow any team from anywhere. Fantasy football means there are a lot of football fans with no team loyalty whatsoever- they only care about the handful of players on their fantasy team. Meanwhile, the NFL is passing rules to make games more "family-friendly" by cracking down on the partying, but then setting ticket prices so high that working- and middle- class families get priced out.

Look no further than the Washington Redskins. Go to a game. You don't see a lot of families. You see people standing outside of tour buses eating sushi provided by caterers until 30 min after the game starts. You see young congressional staffers from all over America at the game to be seen there, more concerned with responding to emails on their smart phones than watching the game. Meanwhile lifelong Skins fan with 3 kids in northeast DC can't afford to take his kids to the game, and the kids are watching the Ravens on TV anyway because they don't suck like the Redskins do. DC has lost a generation of fans. I think the NFL is being short-sighted by going after the short term corporate dollar over long-term affinity for the team, because those corporate bandwagon-jumpers aren't going to be there when the team goes through a 14 year playoff drought, like we are. But, they are on a reckless pursuit of every possible dollar and don't show any signs of stopping to think about the consequences any time soon.

I think that a lot of what you say is merely a reflection of society that cannot live without constant technological interaction these days. I yearn for the days prior to when everyone was constantly "connected." The whole thing is reflective of mental disease with narcissism at its core. Many people have no idea what to do when left alone anymore. Many haven't experienced it in years.

That's been the nice thing about the Bills imo, they haven't been forced to become like many other teams. If I had my druthers, I'd build a normal stadium wherever in the region and just enjoy going to games with a replay board and that's it. Food & concessions of course, but those days are long gone.

Part of the problem is that people seem to have evolved to the extent that they need constant stimuli. In between plays there's music, or some clown-like act on the field, or whatever. It's almost as if the game is secondary at times.

One thing that really irritates me, anywhere, are those ribbon scoreboards that flash around the stadium. Don't know why, they just do, I think they are a part and parcel of that.

You're right about a generation of fans having been lost. We've lost them for other reasons, simply poor management of the team. Which will be Wilson's legacy. The fact that he fired Polian over nonsense ain't gonna help that.

As soon as the NFL expands the playoffs they're going to lose another generation, and I'll be driving that bus out of town. The length of games on TV is already borderline making it unwatchable. What's next 4 hours?

[Fletch]

Frankly, all you "hard-bitten" realists disgust me. When mankind makes its decisions purely according to the calculus of homo economicus, something essential to civilization has vanished. Ultimately, the NFL will destroy itself if it becomes blind and deaf to the romance of place and the commitment that spans generations. No doubt, an economic machine can dismiss Buffalo with complete lack of feeling. Human beings diminish themselves when they act like that. Those who applaud them or just say "that's the way it is" tacitly grease the wheels. A decent person would protest.

I think there is still enough old guard decency in the NFL to keep the Bills in Buffalo. If they go, one thing I won't miss is rubbing message board shoulders with boorish souls.

I'm not sure that "old guard decencey" will be enough. No doubt a part of this so-called feasibility study will be how many luxury suites the team can sell. Pretty much everything revolves around that in the NFL these days when it comes to team placement. I have no doubt that some in Toronto are quite busy as we speak soliciting suite sales so that they can be used in a pitch to the NFL.

Frankly, if they get them, the rest of the stadium would sell well enough otherwise to force a move if they don't sell here, and they haven't sold here, ditto for PSLs.

I'm not sure what you're talking about with your "hard-bitten realists" comment, but I agree with you on the NFL destroying itself, but you know, it's only destroying itself in our eyes. In the eyes of most it's doing what they want.

As with you, I'd be perfectly content in a stadium with bench seating merely watching the game with relative silence during stoppages, which are only necessary for TV. Those days will never be back however. If anything we're looking at games taking 4 hours regularly.

This is what our grand society with its focuses on the profits for corporations has done unto itself.

[Fletch]

Sure some people might be annoyed but the reality is that the only ones who will stop spending money and watching games if the Bills move are Bills fans. And we're a passionate fan base but not a wealthy one. We have the cheapest ticket prices and fewest luxury boxes in the NFL. The NFL will have a hard time getting the same level of passion from fans in a new location for the Bills. They won't have a hard time making up the revenue.

In terms of the average ranking of net profit and gross revenues, the Bills rank DFL. It's hardly a stretch to think that somewhere else makes more sense to place a team. I'm expecting that a city besides LA in the US gets floated as a potential landing spot as well. Maybe two. ... once the dust of Wilson's passing settles some more.

Here's the thing, if Buffalo didn't currently have a team, or hadn't had one in recent years, there would be slim to nil chance that Buffalo would even be considered.

[Dr. Who]

I'm not sure that "old guard decencey" will be enough. No doubt a part of this so-called feasibility study will be how many luxury suites the team can sell. Pretty much everything revolves around that in the NFL these days when it comes to team placement. I have no doubt that some in Toronto are quite busy as we speak soliciting suite sales so that they can be used in a pitch to the NFL.

Frankly, if they get them, the rest of the stadium would sell well enough otherwise to force a move if they don't sell here, and they haven't sold here, ditto for PSLs.

I'm not sure what you're talking about with your "hard-bitten realists" comment, but I agree with you on the NFL destroying itself, but you know, it's only destroying itself in our eyes. In the eyes of most it's doing what they want.

As with you, I'd be perfectly content in a stadium with bench seating merely watching the game with relative silence during stoppages, which are only necessary for TV. Those days will never be back however. If anything we're looking at games taking 4 hours regularly.

This is what our grand society with its focuses on the profits for corporations has done unto itself.

We agree about the nature of our current society.

I'm not going to reply at length to your lengthy earlier diatribe. I think the current Bills front office and team talent is good. Those who want to make them pay for the sins of the past fourteen years will do so. I don't agree with that assessment.

Naturally, I can only speak for myself and give my opinion. You are doing the same. In some sense, everyone's perceptions revolve around them. How could it be otherwise?

[Fletch]

We agree about the nature of our current society.

I'm not going to reply at length to your lengthy earlier diatribe. I think the current Bills front office and team talent is good. Those who want to make them pay for the sins of the past fourteen years will do so. I don't agree with that assessment.

Naturally, I can only speak for myself and give my opinion. You are doing the same. In some sense, everyone's perceptions revolve around them. How could it be otherwise?

You obviously misunderstood me. I did not advocate making anyone pay for fourteen years of anything. Just saying, what has spawned all that has not changed. Same types in the FO and in charge spawning more of the same.

Agree on your last point, but obviously some people seem to think that their opinions mean more than others.

Clearly when people post citing facts and other substantive info and data, their posts should carry more weight than those that simply opine on emotion only or primarily.

Again, this comes down to whether these threads are debates and civil discussions or emotionally laden and charged combative proceedings. For some it's clearly the latter, and that ruins any forum.

I do disagree that the team is good enough. In my view even a very good coach might have this team barely cracking the playoffs every season. When you're short an average or better QB it's very difficult to become a competitive playoff team. ... if not impossible. After that we're still short quite a bit of talent.

The problem is that everyone's measuring last season's defenders by sacks, which is a poor way to base a value to a player that played in a pass-rush/pass-D heavy D. Again, we're going to see those gawdy sack stats come back down this season and then everyone's going to be scratching their noodle wondering why certain players "were not as good as last season" when there's more to it than that.

I think that the coaching staff is, once again, in way over their heads. I also think that Whaley's not a fraction of what his apologists say that he is. There is a track record there despite them ignoring it. It started with him coming to Buffalo as the Asst. GM in 2010 as the senior player talent guy.

[Dr. Who]

Well, do you think your views are the only possible rational ones? If I disagree with you, does that mean I am merely an emotivist without any compelling facts? What would constitute persuasive facts by your criteria? Perhaps the Bills have to win a lot of games for anyone's optimistic surmise to rank as anything more than emotion for you. You appear to posit the past years of futility as the default rational position and go from there.

I don't accept those presuppositions. I feel pretty good about Marrone; less so about Hackett, but I am willing to give him another year. I like EJ and think he will be better than you surmise. I am personally impressed by Whaley. The future may bear out your pessimism. If so, I will be disappointed, but I am rather used to that with this team.

[swiper]

I don't mind invective if it is at least slightly clever. Keep trying.

What is not clever is your whining.

[Dr. Who]

What is not clever is your whining.

You made a ridiculous claim about how many of our draft picks would make the team. You justified your response in a way that showed you have poor reading comprehension. My original surmise was that you were an arrogant troll. I now see that you are simply not very bright. I should not have attacked your silly assertion. Wit is beyond you. I personally find your antagonism dull. If you like this sort of thing, carry on.