Cuomo beginning Buffalo Bills stadium posturing

[YardRat]

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/bills-news-notes/2014/5/26/5747248/new-buffalo-bills-stadium-funding-andrew-cuomo

Frankly, it's surprising it took New York State governor Andrew Cuomo this long to advocate for private funding. At NFL meetings last week, several league owners made it known that a new stadium was key to keeping the Buffalo Bills (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/teams/buffalo-bills) in Western New York. Now, Cuomo says the Bills - and not the taxpayers of New York State - should pay for it.

"If we had to go to a new stadium, my opening position would be, ‘great. New stadium. Privately financed.' I agree that the less government money, the better - if we had to go in that direction in the first place," Cuomo told The Buffalo News. (http://www.buffalonews.com/city-region/cuomo-says-if-new-stadium-is-built-private-entities-should-fund-it-20140523)


As part of his posturing, Cuomo sought any way to defend the withholding of state money. Even though it's flimsy, the governor brought up other areas of the state.
"Other parts of the state say ‘how about us?' There's an equity argument," Cuomo said.


"But if it was essential, I would support it," Cuomo concluded. "Now, the devil is in the details. Where? How much? It's not just government money. It would be private money, also."

[X-Era]

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/bills-news-notes/2014/5/26/5747248/new-buffalo-bills-stadium-funding-andrew-cuomo

Frankly, it's surprising it took New York State governor Andrew Cuomo this long to advocate for private funding. At NFL meetings last week, several league owners made it known that a new stadium was key to keeping the Buffalo Bills (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/teams/buffalo-bills) in Western New York. Now, Cuomo says the Bills - and not the taxpayers of New York State - should pay for it.

"If we had to go to a new stadium, my opening position would be, ‘great. New stadium. Privately financed.' I agree that the less government money, the better - if we had to go in that direction in the first place," Cuomo told The Buffalo News. (http://www.buffalonews.com/city-region/cuomo-says-if-new-stadium-is-built-private-entities-should-fund-it-20140523)


As part of his posturing, Cuomo sought any way to defend the withholding of state money. Even though it's flimsy, the governor brought up other areas of the state.
"Other parts of the state say ‘how about us?' There's an equity argument," Cuomo said.


"But if it was essential, I would support it," Cuomo concluded. "Now, the devil is in the details. Where? How much? It's not just government money. It would be private money, also."
I don't know the details but does Cuomos so called "equity" include a brand new stadium in the Meadowlands?

The Bills should have a vested stake in the new stadium I agree. How much? I don't think it should be 100% Bills money. The state and county should also have a significant stake.

[Historian]

It's time the rotting apple does something for us, for a change.

[DraftBoy]

Its all talk for now, I don't think he's going to stop the only stadium in NYS from actually being built knowing the jobs, revenue, and economic development it will bring.

That being said if he's looking at a 16, 20, or 24 run at the White House he may be a pain in the ass, to show people he's not just a big government spending machine.

There are a couple unique factors at play that will be interesting to watch.

[Novacane]

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/bills-news-notes/2014/5/26/5747248/new-buffalo-bills-stadium-funding-andrew-cuomo

Frankly, it's surprising it took New York State governor Andrew Cuomo this long to advocate for private funding. At NFL meetings last week, several league owners made it known that a new stadium was key to keeping the Buffalo Bills (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/teams/buffalo-bills) in Western New York. Now, Cuomo says the Bills - and not the taxpayers of New York State - should pay for it.

"If we had to go to a new stadium, my opening position would be, ‘great. New stadium. Privately financed.' I agree that the less government money, the better - if we had to go in that direction in the first place," Cuomo told The Buffalo News. (http://www.buffalonews.com/city-region/cuomo-says-if-new-stadium-is-built-private-entities-should-fund-it-20140523)


As part of his posturing, Cuomo sought any way to defend the withholding of state money. Even though it's flimsy, the governor brought up other areas of the state.
"Other parts of the state say ‘how about us?' There's an equity argument," Cuomo said.


"But if it was essential, I would support it," Cuomo concluded. "Now, the devil is in the details. Where? How much? It's not just government money. It would be private money, also."



This part pissed me off!

[Skooby]

How many NFL team actually play in NY ?? 1, that's right 1. The Bills are the only NY NFL team, so lets not act like the Bills are a dime a dozen. Much of WNY's money flows east to pay for NY City projects, like that really pricey waterline, well send money west to pay for the Bills.

[OLDSRIP]

How much did NYS contribute to the NJ stadiums? Anyone know?

[TacklingDummy]

It should be financed by all private money.

[MikeInRoch]

I'm pretty sure NYS kicked in at least $200M or so for the Yankee's new stadium, plus tax breaks.

[DraftBoy]

It should be financed by all private money.

Not sure you'll ever see that again.

[Historian]

I'm pretty sure NYS kicked in at least $200M or so for the Yankee's new stadium, plus tax breaks.

Mets too.

[X-Era]

Apparently MetLife cost 1.6 bill and was 100% privately funded:

http://www.metlifestadium.com/stadium/about-us

[X-Era]

Yankee stadium was 1.3 bill with 450 mill paid equally by the Yankees and NYC taxpayers and the rest from an MLB revenue sharing pool:

http://www.nyc.com/arts__attractions/yankee_stadium.1002975/editorial_review.aspx

[DraftBoy]

Apparently MetLife cost 1.6 bill and was 100% privately funded:

http://www.metlifestadium.com/stadium/about-us

There was something else about that deal that escapes me know that made that a bit of a misnomer claim. It was entirely privately funded but I think they received some crazy deal on taxes and land or something like that.

[don137]

I think it will be both privately and publicly funded.

Met Life had a huge advantage in that they sold PSLs to both Jets and Giant fans. That sure helped. I have to think PSLs will be part one small part of any new stadium to help finance it. The question is will Bills fans be willing to incur a one time cost for the right to buy seats. They can sell those PSLs when they no longer want season tickets but the PSLs depreciates over time.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Good get this thing done now.

Cross Ontario and Batavia OFF THE LIST ALREADY

I don't want to hear any cheapskates whining about tax costs either. STFU already.

[Fletch]

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/bills-news-notes/2014/5/26/5747248/new-buffalo-bills-stadium-funding-andrew-cuomo

Frankly, it's surprising it took New York State governor Andrew Cuomo this long to advocate for private funding. At NFL meetings last week, several league owners made it known that a new stadium was key to keeping the Buffalo Bills (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/teams/buffalo-bills) in Western New York. Now, Cuomo says the Bills - and not the taxpayers of New York State - should pay for it.

"If we had to go to a new stadium, my opening position would be, ‘great. New stadium. Privately financed.' I agree that the less government money, the better - if we had to go in that direction in the first place," Cuomo told The Buffalo News. (http://www.buffalonews.com/city-region/cuomo-says-if-new-stadium-is-built-private-entities-should-fund-it-20140523)


As part of his posturing, Cuomo sought any way to defend the withholding of state money. Even though it's flimsy, the governor brought up other areas of the state.
"Other parts of the state say ‘how about us?' There's an equity argument," Cuomo said.


"But if it was essential, I would support it," Cuomo concluded. "Now, the devil is in the details. Where? How much? It's not just government money. It would be private money, also."

This is interesting because in the past we've always been told that without taxpayer monies that this is not possible.

Think about it, taxpayer monies, really just more state debt at this point, typically fund the financing on stadiums. That's usually if not always more than the cost of the stadium itself over time just like the financing on a home is more than the original cost of the home over time.

We've been told that most owners only make on the magnitude of a few to 10 maybe 20 million a year for the luckier ones. I don't see how with that kind of profit a privatized deal will come through. It would seem that the entire NFL model would have to change, as it should, to have owners pay for their own stadiums.

But here's the rub, if the owners can't afford to pick up their own financing, then why would that be considered a good investment for other private investors?

Not seeing it here. If this is going to come down to privatized funding, as it should, NFL wide even, then I don't see WNY winning out.

[Fletch]

How many NFL team actually play in NY ?? 1, that's right 1. The Bills are the only NY NFL team, so lets not act like the Bills are a dime a dozen. Much of WNY's money flows east to pay for NY City projects, like that really pricey waterline, well send money west to pay for the Bills.

Do you (or anyone) really think that 80% of NYS residents actually care?

[Fletch]

Its all talk for now, I don't think he's going to stop the only stadium in NYS from actually being built knowing the jobs, revenue, and economic development it will bring..

If it brings that much economic development, why do they have to rely on taxes to make it happen? There would be private investors champing at the bit to get in on a piece of the action if this were true. Yet, it rarely happens and when it does there are usually all kinds of tax breaks for those investors which is essentially the same as taxes for everyone else.

It's been proven time and time again, to those that will listen apparently, that the net impact of professional sports teams on the tax base, for publicly subsidized teams, is a net negative. People continue to ignore this while spouting off what you just said as if it weren't true. The absolute last people that anyone should listen to on these topics is politicians, people that have made a profession out of lying through their teeth on a regular basis as a rule of operating.

[TedMock]

There was something else about that deal that escapes me know that made that a bit of a misnomer claim. It was entirely privately funded but I think they received some crazy deal on taxes and land or something like that.

I think they received G-3 financing for both teams. The max is $150 million (not sure if it's changed since) per team. This stadium received $300MM because two teams use it. It's the only one in recent memory that is 100% privately financed. Of course, it's also the easiest place in the country to find that type of funding.

[DraftBoy]

If it brings that much economic development, why do they have to rely on taxes to make it happen? There would be private investors champing at the bit to get in on a piece of the action if this were true. Yet, it rarely happens and when it does there are usually all kinds of tax breaks for those investors which is essentially the same as taxes for everyone else.

Because why should they only rely on the private investment dollars when they can have your money now and later? Who wouldn't want that kind of a deal.


It's been proven time and time again, to those that will listen apparently, that the net impact of professional sports teams on the tax base, for publicly subsidized teams, is a net negative. People continue to ignore this while spouting off what you just said as if it weren't true. The absolute last people that anyone should listen to on these topics is politicians, people that have made a profession out of lying through their teeth on a regular basis as a rule of operating.

Nobody claimed it would be a net positive, but that doesn't change the fact that it will bring jobs, revenue, and economic development to the region. You just may have to sell your soul to get it.

[THATHURMANATOR]

It's been proven time and time again, to those that will listen apparently, that the net impact of professional sports teams on the tax base, for publicly subsidized teams, is a net negative. People continue to ignore this while spouting off what you just said as if it weren't true. The absolute last people that anyone should listen to on these topics is politicians, people that have made a profession out of lying through their teeth on a regular basis as a rule of operating.

Yeah we know Fletch

I don't give a ****. I will pay. Keep the Bills at all cost.

Stop being a cheapskate.

[TedMock]

There are all sorts of academic studies out there on the impact of pro sports on the local economy. Most lean toward the net impact being zero. Some have shown negative and a few have shown positive. Most do not come to a complete conclusion because there are so many factors that have yet to be weighed. The only thing you can do is look at all the research and consider it in your own determination as to whether a new stadium should be built and, if so, how it should be funded.

Several that I looked at considered type of venue and size of local economy. Smaller municipalities seem more likely to feel a positive benefit. The "new money" theory comes into play. Is the money spent on/at the game indeed "new" to the economy, or is it money that would have otherwise been spent doing something else that week? Do you have to choose between the game and going out for dinner and drinks with the same dollars, for example. It seems counterintuitive, but a lot of what I've seen shows that being more of an issue in bigger areas. On one hand you have people making less in smaller areas, so it would appear they would have the difficult choice. On the other hand it seems the greater number of choices in larger areas is where people have to decide more. If you and the spouse go to dinner every Wednesday, you're more likely to keep that tradition regardless of whatever else you decide to do that week. The difference is some places have a lot more options of more elaborate ways to enjoy themselves occasionally. Still not sure I buy either side at this point.

The venue type is a tough one for all of us. First, a football stadium is less flexible despite its size. An 18-20 thousand seat arena can easily host hockey, basketball, indoor football, monster trucks, concerts, etc. and not appear emptly. A 60,000 seat stadium may not have the same aesthetics. If they can figure this out they have a greater chance of selling "new money." To do this the atmosphere has to obviously be pleasant for most. Locals need to be lured from the couch at home, but there also has to be a draw for visitors. You don't want the other team's fans to take over, but you don't want them to completely avoid it either. Ideally you want them to say that "Buffalo fans are passionate as heck, but the stadium is pretty sweet. I would definitely say to check it out." That's new money that will be spent in and around town before and after the game. With all of this a closed (or retractable) roof is probably most beneficial, but the cost will probably be more. I don't love closed roofs, but if it is proven to be beneficial for the whole I will accept it.

In the end it is a tough sell to the taxpayers either way, but hopefully there is a good and well thought proposal out there that realistically weighs all of this and more - and hopefully it shows that for our market a team and new stadium is indeed the best course. At this point, I have no idea and cannot wait to see the plans as they are laid out.

[chris66]

I think they received G-3 financing for both teams. The max is $150 million (not sure if it's changed since) per team. This stadium received $300MM because two teams use it. It's the only one in recent memory that is 100% privately financed. Of course, it's also the easiest place in the country to find that type of funding.

Gillette was built 100 percent without taxpayer dollars.
State added 100 million in infrastructure which Kraft has paid back.

[TedMock]

Gillette was built 100 percent without taxpayer dollars.
State added 100 million in infrastructure which Kraft has paid back.

That makes sense. I saw 17% publicly financed with a state infrastructure constribution. I did not know it was all paid back.

[don137]

Gillette was built 100 percent without taxpayer dollars.
State added 100 million in infrastructure which Kraft has paid back.

Kraft also has made Patriot games un-affordable for the common fan.

[trapezeus]

i think if you just build a stadium for 8 games and maybe a playoff game in a suburb, it's going to be a net negative. If you build a structure downtown, near the train, develop an area that's kind of already developing with restaurants and reasons to put up shops, and build a structure that is multipurpose (ie. connected to a convention center, or connected to additional businesses), you can really help buffalo grow.

The trend seems to be to revitalize the city and after years of just talk, it's actually happening. you put a stadium that can be used at other times of the year and has a unique appeal aside from football, the state should back that and see the development come through.

however, if its just another stadium in a far out area, done on the cheap ($600-800MM) chasing the current standards, it will not help the region and simplymake the land owner rich and the owners who pocket the ticket and parking money rich.

[stuckincincy]

i think if you just build a stadium for 8 games and maybe a playoff game in a suburb, it's going to be a net negative. If you build a structure downtown, near the train, develop an area that's kind of already developing with restaurants and reasons to put up shops, and build a structure that is multipurpose (ie. connected to a convention center, or connected to additional businesses), you can really help buffalo grow.

The trend seems to be to revitalize the city and after years of just talk, it's actually happening. you put a stadium that can be used at other times of the year and has a unique appeal aside from football, the state should back that and see the development come through.

however, if its just another stadium in a far out area, done on the cheap ($600-800MM) chasing the current standards, it will not help the region and simplymake the land owner rich and the owners who pocket the ticket and parking money rich.

Cincinnati's 2 waterfront stadiums revitalized...nothing, but the owner's wallets.

[trapezeus]

and they are simply stadiums without any other usage, no? i've not been to cincy in a long time.

if the bills do it with NYS money, it's got to be creative, it has to take into account other things that buffalo can use to continue to develop. just having more restaurants by itself isn't a good enough proposal to justify the spending. Having minimum wage jobs isn't enough to show growth. but perhaps a stadium with convention center attached, or connected to higher end condo's would be good to get more people to move back. This is obviously just off the top of my head as i'm not sure having 80,000 drunkards vomitting in your lobby would be exciting.

Maybe you make a food center with another wegmans/tops attached to help with tailgating goods and having a few restaurants so that you have an area where people can hang out and buy food for the game.

if NYS money is to be spent, it should be spent on a big idea and not just a stadium revival. Frankly the $1BN in buffalo campaign has been good for buffalo. why not continue it?

[stuckincincy]

and they are simply stadiums without any other usage, no? i've not been to cincy in a long time.


Pretty much. The B'gals have total say about whatever happens, and I don't recall the baseball park being used for anything other than MLB. B'gals owner has been publicly shamed a few time to allow some high school football. The B'gals lease deal is often cited as the worst ever. I've lived in the area for 24 years and I remain astounded at the Cincinnati mentality.

Never move here, folks.

[Fletch]

It's time the rotting apple does something for us, for a change.

I thought that Hillary was going to do all that.

Guess not. lol

Good luck with that.

Someone needs to explain to me how a team that netted only $12.6M last year is going to be able to pay off private investors for building a new stadium that will likely cost over $1B.

[better days]

Yeah we know Fletch

I don't give a ****. I will pay. Keep the Bills at all cost.

Stop being a cheapskate.

Exactly. We all pay taxes that pay for things we don't give a crap about.

REAL BUFFALO Bills fans do care about the Bills & a new Stadium to house them.

[stuckincincy]

Exactly. We all pay taxes that pay for things we don't give a crap about.

REAL BUFFALO Bills fans do care about the Bills & a new Stadium to house them.

THEN REAL fans must pay 5K PSLs and double tix prices. You wouldn't want to stick the cost of taxation and bonds issue interest on folks who don't give a rat's patoot about NFL football, would you? Try to make them pay for your yucks?

YOU can send a personal check from your residence payable to the Bills in the amount of ten thousand dollars, to get the ball rolling. Eh?

[THATHURMANATOR]

Gillette was built 100 percent without taxpayer dollars.
State added 100 million in infrastructure which Kraft has paid back.

Who cares.

That has nothing to do with this scenario.

This scenario will likely call for big portion of the stadium to be funded by the public.

[better days]

THEN REAL fans must pay 5K PSLs and double tix prices. You wouldn't want to stick the cost of taxation and bonds issue interest on folks who don't give a rat's patoot about NFL football, would you? Try to make them pay for your yucks?

YOU can send a personal check from your residence payable to the Bills in the amount of ten thousand dollars, to get the ball rolling. Eh?

Yes let EVERYONE pay.

I don't have any kids in school, but my taxes go towards that.

Would you expect only people that have kids in school to pay for that?

[THATHURMANATOR]

THEN REAL fans must pay 5K PSLs and double tix prices. You wouldn't want to stick the cost of taxation and bonds issue interest on folks who don't give a rat's patoot about NFL football, would you? Try to make them pay for your yucks?

YOU can send a personal check from your residence payable to the Bills in the amount of ten thousand dollars, to get the ball rolling. Eh?

How much would funding a new stadium actually raise the average person's tax bill on a yearly bases? Serious question here.

I can't imagine it would be a huge increase.

Now talk about stadium being privately funded and the intro of PSLs.

I have 5 season tickets which are in the endzone. They are $550 a piece for the season. I could easily afford doubling the cost of these for the season.

Now if you introduce a $5K PSL that changes things. I make good money but I don't have $25K available to fund 5 football tickets.

It is probably a moot point anyways because no owner coming in is going to pay for the stadium on their own. A large portion will be publicly funded.

[better days]

Pretty much. The B'gals have total say about whatever happens, and I don't recall the baseball park being used for anything other than MLB. B'gals owner has been publicly shamed a few time to allow some high school football. The B'gals lease deal is often cited as the worst ever. I've lived in the area for 24 years and I remain astounded at the Cincinnati mentality.

Never move here, folks.

LOL. Held prisoner in Cinci for 24 years.

Maybe you will hear from the parole board soon.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Yes let EVERYONE pay.

I don't have any kids in school, but my taxes go towards that.

Would you expect only people that have kids in school to pay for that?

Great point actually.

I don't have kids either and I am paying school taxes (which I have 0 issue with by the way)

That is the way the tax cookie crumbles. Many things you are taxed for you don't want or need.

- - - Updated - - -

And why is Cincy so smug on this anyways? He is Stuck in Cincy.

[trapezeus]

the meadowlands got a huge loan from the NFL. i think if they pay their dues to this thing, the state can step in for some.

to cite the annual profit of the team to base the decision on how to fund a stadium build doesn't make much sense.

[SpikedLemonade]

Kraft also has made Patriot games un-affordable for the common fan.

Do you think with a new stadium in Buffalo, the games will then be affordable for the common fan?

So basically Bills fans are hoping for some charity to be given to them so they don't have to pay the average cost of NFL tickets league wide plus a PSL.

[SpikedLemonade]

How much would funding a new stadium actually raise the average person's tax bill on a yearly bases? Serious question here.

I can't imagine it would be a huge increase.

Now talk about stadium being privately funded and the intro of PSLs.

I have 5 season tickets which are in the endzone. They are $550 a piece for the season. I could easily afford doubling the cost of these for the season.

Now if you introduce a $5K PSL that changes things. I make good money but I don't have $25K available to fund 5 football tickets.

It is probably a moot point anyways because no owner coming in is going to pay for the stadium on their own. A large portion will be publicly funded.

Don't worry. Just like in Minny, they will loan you the $25K and put you on an interest free repayment plan.

[better days]

God Bless America....

DAMN STRAIGHT.

[BuffaloRedleg]

God Bless America....

You know you'll be long gone before the Bills move, right?

We'll make a thread here and talk about how great you were. Hell, I'll chime in and say something as well because you are a funny guy. You are an incredibly important part to the buffalo sports forum community.

But the wheels of progress move forward and no smart investor would take the chance on moving the team to Toronto or wherever when he has the easy money, low cost and high upside of Buffalo. Sorry that cities outlast and out-progress people, but you'll have to come to terms with it and I hope you will and I hope it will make you happy. The fact that you can't seem to wrap your head around the Bills staying is sad, and it reflects a poorly lived life. I'm sorry for that. I hope that you find some happiness and a little less cynicism in the plucky love that Bills fans and Buffalonians have for their city. If you can't enjoy that, well then I'm sorry... you are having a 30 year old tell you you missed the point of life.

Buffalo is on the upswing and there is nothing your cynical comments can do about it, because you have no stock in this world anymore. Sorry bud, but the constant dead horse beating negativity is getting old and someone needs to say it.

Is this how you always dreamed your twilight years? Sitting on the porch telling people to not be positive because it's all about money and nothing else and the world is going to always **** you in the ass no matter what?

I hope I don't end up that way.

[swiper]

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/bills-news-notes/2014/5/26/5747248/new-buffalo-bills-stadium-funding-andrew-cuomo

Frankly, it's surprising it took New York State governor Andrew Cuomo this long to advocate for private funding. At NFL meetings last week, several league owners made it known that a new stadium was key to keeping the Buffalo Bills (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/teams/buffalo-bills) in Western New York. Now, Cuomo says the Bills - and not the taxpayers of New York State - should pay for it.

"If we had to go to a new stadium, my opening position would be, ‘great. New stadium. Privately financed.' I agree that the less government money, the better - if we had to go in that direction in the first place," Cuomo told The Buffalo News. (http://www.buffalonews.com/city-region/cuomo-says-if-new-stadium-is-built-private-entities-should-fund-it-20140523)


As part of his posturing, Cuomo sought any way to defend the withholding of state money. Even though it's flimsy, the governor brought up other areas of the state.
"Other parts of the state say ‘how about us?' There's an equity argument," Cuomo said.


"But if it was essential, I would support it," Cuomo concluded. "Now, the devil is in the details. Where? How much? It's not just government money. It would be private money, also."

Nothing I hate more than football fans who ***** about the state government, but then turn around and think they are entitled to have the state flit the bill for a football stadium. You ARE NOT entitled to have state funds be used for your hobby. If it gets done, you should consider yourself lucky.

[X-Era]

Play nice.

[Historian]

Serious question: Can somebody describe for me what is a "common fan"?

[THATHURMANATOR]

Don't worry. Just like in Minny, they will loan you the $25K and put you on an interest free repayment plan.

ANSWER ME

[THATHURMANATOR]

Nothing I hate more than football fans who ***** about the state government, but then turn around and think they are entitled to have the state flit the bill for a football stadium. You ARE NOT entitled to have state funds be used for your hobby. If it gets done, you should consider yourself lucky.

No one is entitled but you who are you to say that someone can't want public money to be used for a stadium?

Our tax dollars are already being pissed away into bull**** programs and other crap I don't use. I wish for some it to go to a stadium.

Sure in a perfect world Terry P buys the team and builds a sweet stadium on his own dime but that isn't likely.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Don't worry. Just like in Minny, they will loan you the $25K and put you on an interest free repayment plan.

Question on PSLs however.

They are a one time cost I assume.

If I decided to not renew the tickets do I get the 25K back? How does that work?

[swiper]

No one is entitled but you who are you to say that someone can't want public money to be used for a stadium?

Our tax dollars are already being pissed away into bull**** programs and other crap I don't use. I wish for some it to go to a stadium.

Sure in a perfect world Terry P buys the team and builds a sweet stadium on his own dime but that isn't likely.

What "bull**** programs" is it that you don't like that are less important than a football stadium? The notion is ridiculous.

[THATHURMANATOR]

What "bull**** programs" is it that you don't like that are less important than a football stadium? The notion is ridiculous.

I DON'T KNOW! :(

[chris66]

Kraft also has made Patriot games un-affordable for the common fan.
Yes its expensive but the product is worth it.
No psl either

[MikeInRoch]

Do you (or anyone) really think that 80% of NYS residents actually care?

80% of NYS residents don't actually care about the Erie Canal either. So let's stop funding that as well.

[Fletch]

80% of NYS residents don't actually care about the Erie Canal either. So let's stop funding that as well.

I wouldn't say that at all. I'd wager that in a poll most NYS residents would support the minimal cost of the upkeep of the Canal. It's historic, it doesn't really serve much purpose otherwise anymore.

That's an apples to apples argument anyway. Nice tangent though to try and distract from the argument. And if the Canal cost $1B annually, you can bet your last slice of pizza that people wouldn't support it either.

But no, the over half the population, easily, that lives within one hour of NYC doesn't give a crap about whether or not Buffalo has a team. Despite the argument that the Bills are NYS's only team, for all intents and purposes both the Jets and Giants are NYC teams. Look at the NJ Nets of the NBA, they now play in Brooklyn. Not to get off on that tangent, but the NYC metro area includes Jersey and CT.

Hell, even people as close as Syracuse are more Giants fans than they are Bills fans.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I wouldn't say that at all. I'd wager that in a poll most NYS residents would support the minimal cost of the upkeep of the Canal. It's historic, it doesn't really serve much purpose otherwise anymore.

That's an apples to apples argument anyway. Nice tangent though to try and distract from the argument. And if the Canal cost $1B annually, you can bet your last slice of pizza that people wouldn't support it either.

But no, the over half the population, easily, that lives within one hour of NYC doesn't give a crap about whether or not Buffalo has a team. Despite the argument that the Bills are NYS's only team, for all intents and purposes both the Jets and Giants are NYC teams. Look at the NJ Nets of the NBA, they now play in Brooklyn. Not to get off on that tangent, but the NYC metro area includes Jersey and CT.

Hell, even people as close as Syracuse are more Giants fans than they are Bills fans.

If it is an apples to apples argument wouldn't that mean it is a relevent one?

[better days]

I wouldn't say that at all. I'd wager that in a poll most NYS residents would support the minimal cost of the upkeep of the Canal. It's historic, it doesn't really serve much purpose otherwise anymore.

That's an apples to apples argument anyway. Nice tangent though to try and distract from the argument. And if the Canal cost $1B annually, you can bet your last slice of pizza that people wouldn't support it either.

But no, the over half the population, easily, that lives within one hour of NYC doesn't give a crap about whether or not Buffalo has a team. Despite the argument that the Bills are NYS's only team, for all intents and purposes both the Jets and Giants are NYC teams. Look at the NJ Nets of the NBA, they now play in Brooklyn. Not to get off on that tangent, but the NYC metro area includes Jersey and CT.

Hell, even people as close as Syracuse are more Giants fans than they are Bills fans.

I don't give a damn if NYC doesn't give a crap about the Stadium.

A LOT of WNY money is spent on NYC.

About time Buffalo got a little back.

[Fletch]

If it is an apples to apples argument wouldn't that mean it is a relevent one?

My bad, I meant apples to oranges.

Clearly, does that really need an explanation.

But the answer to your question is yes.

[THATHURMANATOR]

My bad, I meant apples to oranges.

Clearly, does that really need an explanation.

But the answer to your question is yes.

Thanks for clearing it up.

[Bill Cody]

In my opinion the era of state funded sports stadiums is probably over, the money just isn't there nor is the public's appetite for these things. The NFL will contribute $150m, there's a fan fund for a piece but the rest is up to the new owners. I can definitely see the state ponying up for some infrastructure and that may be significant depending on the site. But for the building itself? Really doubt it. And really why should the state do it? It's a pure gift to the new owners plain and simple. I certainly won't complain if the state does do it I just don't see that being in the cards.

That's one more reason to not want a charlatan like Trump involved. His corporations have filed bankruptcy 5x and he can't be trusted to deliver a new stadium. Much rather have a guy with deeper pockets that's into football not self promotion. Think deep local ties, and as filthy rich as possible.

[swiper]

I don't give a damn if NYC doesn't give a crap about the Stadium.

A LOT of WNY money is spent on NYC.

About time Buffalo got a little back.

Most of New York STATE doesn't give a rat's ass about the Bills. I am a fan and don't want the state government putting a penny toward a stadium for the Bills.

Let's put it up for a vote. It would fail miserably.

[SpikedLemonade]

ANSWER ME

I already did with a link but the post was deleted.

[SpikedLemonade]

Question on PSLs however.

They are a one time cost I assume.

If I decided to not renew the tickets do I get the 25K back? How does that work?

No but you can sell the PSL to someone else for whatever you can get for it.

[BuffaloRedleg]

No but you can sell the PSL to someone else for whatever you can get for it.

btw I shouldn't have said some of that stuff in my previous post. I was hitting the sauce a bit and I'm sorry, I'll say it publicly.

I stand by most of it. You are one cynical man. Life is not always about dollars and cents. It's easy to sit from our little foxholes and claim all rich people are monsters and only care about money, but that is not seeing the forest for the trees I think.

Fantasy Draft should be in Buffalo next year, maybe at a local bar with some wings. You need to see the changes and positive things that are happening in the city and hopefully it will inspire you to not be so cynical that the world is constantly dog eat dog.

[don137]

Question on PSLs however.

They are a one time cost I assume.

If I decided to not renew the tickets do I get the 25K back? How does that work?


PSLs are a onetime purchase. If gives you the right to purchase season tickets for those seats. It is a depreciating asset since they are as good as long as the team plays in that stadium. If the team moves then you are SOL.

Since I love football and tailgating I have PSLs to the Carolina Panthers. I have two sets of PSLs one in the lower bowl and one in the upper bowl. My upper bowl seats have a price if you buy a PSL in my section of $3000. If I tried to sell them myself through PSLSource.com I probably have to sell them for half that price.
My lower level seats I bought two years ago. I bought off a company who had them for $3,900 each. Through the Panthers they cost $10,000 for my section.
One other bad thing for PSLs IMO is if someone cannot afford their season tickets anymore or moved they still have to buy the tickets or else they lose them and do not get the money back of PSL if they are not able to sell their PSL by the time it is to buy the season tickets. They end up selling the tickets via stub-hub or ticket exchange and it results in more tickets being purchased by opposing team fans.

[better days]

PSLs are a onetime purchase. If gives you the right to purchase season tickets for those seats. It is a depreciating asset since they are as good as long as the team plays in that stadium. If the team moves then you are SOL.

Since I love football and tailgating I have PSLs to the Carolina Panthers. I have two sets of PSLs one in the lower bowl and one in the upper bowl. My upper bowl seats have a price if you buy a PSL in my section of $3000. If I tried to sell them myself through PSLSource.com I probably have to sell them for half that price.
My lower level seats I bought two years ago. I bought off a company who had them for $3,900 each. Through the Panthers they cost $10,000 for my section.
One other bad thing for PSLs IMO is if someone cannot afford their season tickets anymore or moved they still have to buy the tickets or else they lose them and do not get the money back of PSL if they are not able to sell their PSL by the time it is to buy the season tickets. They end up selling the tickets via stub-hub or ticket exchange and it results in more tickets being purchased by opposing team fans.

In Tampa, when Raymond James Stadium was built, the cost of the PSL was equal to the price of the season ticket for that seat. $190.- $2,450. were the cost of the season tickets.

It was repaid to the seat holder at 5% per year with the remainder reimbursed in year 10. In other words, it was a 10 year interest free loan to the Glazer family.

[THATHURMANATOR]

No but you can sell the PSL to someone else for whatever you can get for it.

Thanks!

[don137]

In Tampa, when Raymond James Stadium was built, the cost of the PSL was equal to the price of the season ticket for that seat. $190.- $2,450. were the cost of the season tickets.

It was repaid to the seat holder at 5% per year with the remainder reimbursed in year 10. In other words, it was a 10 year interest free loan to the Glazer family.

I wonder if Tampa is the exception and they did it differently. If you go to PSLSource.com (a website where buyer/sellers go to buy/sell PSL- kind of like stubhub but for PSLs) and look on the buy PSL you will the 15 NFL teams that have PSLs where you can buy PSLs. Tampa is not on there. I think it would be much better for the fans if the next owner followed Tampas approach but I doubt it.

[Historian]

Serious question: Can somebody describe for me what is a "common fan"?

Anybody?

Bueller?
Bueller?

[better days]

I wonder if Tampa is the exception and they did it differently. If you go to PSLSource.com (a website where buyer/sellers go to buy/sell PSL- kind of like stubhub but for PSLs) and look on the buy PSL you will the 15 NFL teams that have PSLs where you can buy PSLs. Tampa is not on there. I think it would be much better for the fans if the next owner followed Tampas approach but I doubt it.

I think the Bucs were one of the first if not the very first team to use the PSL concept.

One aspect of it that people hated was that you had to keep your seats for 10 years or you lost the PSL payment.

[swiper]

Ask a NY Jets fan about what a failure PSLs can turn out to be.