Bills have buy-and-move candidates for ownership

[SpikedLemonade]

Even before word emerged that former Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer intends to buy the L.A. Clippers for $2 billion (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/29/clippers-sale-raises-stakes-for-nfl-teams/), interest had been expressed by potential buyers of the Bills who would acquire the asset with the intent of relocating.

“Truthfully, there are parties that are interested in buying the team and moving it (http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/10109/will-clippers-sale-affect-bills-price),” Erie County Executive Mark Poloncarz told WGR 550 on Thursday, via Mike Rodak of ESPN.com. “We are trying to do what we can on our part to show that this community is moving forward to at least explore everything and all the options that are necessary, in the case the situation comes that we have a new owner that says, ‘I own the Bills. I’m fine with Ralph Wilson Stadium for the next five or six years, but I want out and I want to be somewhere different then.’”

That could be the clearest acknowledgement yet that the current lease for the Bills to play at the stadium named for the team’s late owner buys only time. Specifically, the lease provides a minimum of six seasons (when a limited window opens to bolt) and a maximum of nine seasons (when the lease expires).

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/06/02/bills-have-buy-and-move-candidates-for-ownership/

No panic.

It is not likely to happen.

Strange that this article was overlooked here.

I wonder why?

[Buckets]

This doesn't sound like anything new.

[SpikedLemonade]

This doesn't sound like anything new.

I agree.

The article is new, but the news is not.

We just don't hear much other than about the potential local buyers.

There are non-local potential buyers as well other than Bon Jovi.

[OpIv37]

The only thing really new here is the price of the Clippers. If someone is willing to pay that much for them, what are people willing to pay for the Bills? And can local buyers match bids from buyers from places like LA?

I don't know the answers. Just something to think about, which I believe is the point of the article.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Yes this Clippers thing is a bit troublesome.

[Fletch]

I agree.

The article is new, but the news is not.

We just don't hear much other than about the potential local buyers.

There are non-local potential buyers as well other than Bon Jovi.

Jerry Jones expressed it very well when he was interviewed in a piece on ESPN. In other words what he said was that out of respect some time needs to pass prior to people interested in moving the team coming forward to express that interest. There will be plenty whether it's Toronto or elsewhere. The implication in his statements however was that there's a good chance of the team moving, otherwise he would have taken a more "there's nothing for Bills fans to worry about" approach, which clearly wasn't the message.

I think that this is heating up now though. I'm sure that there will be plenty of news and reports between now and the start of training camp.

[SpikedLemonade]

We need to keep in mind that the NFL owners are not going to allow a new owner to relocate to another city and keep the value bump all to himself.

They will require a relocation fee of $200 - $500M in return for their approval for the move.

So an owner who is determined to move the Bills will need to invest considerably more than a local owner.

Now if a new owner buys the Bills, experiences poor attendance after raising prices substantially, can't get long corporate suite commitments and does not want to invest a dime of his own money in a new stadium in Buffalo, he can make an argument in 6-7 years in favour of a move (assuming a better location is then available).

Stating an intention to relocate the Bills from the start would be foolish.

[The King]

Doesn't Ralphs family own the team? Can't they decide who they sell it to?

[Albany,n.y.]

Even the guys who are promising to keep the Bills in Buffalo are dangerous down the road. Trump is 67, almost 68 & Golisano is 72-either one or both could be dead in 6-9 years. Unless they've already built a new stadium with either team ownership or a long term ironclad lease if a new owner who made promises dies, there's no guarantee his heirs will keep their late relative's promises.
I'd prefer younger ownership or someone like Jacobs whose sons would be committed to keeping the Bills in WNY. Trump or Golisano provide no long term security for WNY.

[GingerP]

Doesn't Ralphs family own the team? Can't they decide who they sell it to?

Nobody knows that. From the article:


"I've spoken to [Bills CEO Russ] Brandon, I've spoken to [Bills CFO Jeffrey Littmann]. They know my request, which is to pick the owner that's going to keep the team in Buffalo. But I don't know if that's going to be the decision that the trustees will end up doing," Poloncarz told WBEN. "If they end up getting a bid that's so much higher than anybody else, I don't know if they can turn it down. They may have the fiduciary duty to accept it."

So it depends on how the trust is set up. If the trust says sell to the highest bidder, that is what they have to do. Nobody is saying what the trust specifies.

[SpikedLemonade]

Doesn't Ralphs family own the team? Can't they decide who they sell it to?

Depends on the terms of Ralph's estate trust.

Typically, estate assets are sold to the highest bidder.

[The King]

Doesn't it seem weird that Ralph made all these rules about moving the team but simply controlling who the team is sold to could easily overwrite that?

[Bill Cody]

Doesn't it seem weird that Ralph made all these rules about moving the team but simply controlling who the team is sold to could easily overwrite that?

It's what some of us have been concerned about for many years and have said so...vocally. For that concern we're branded negative, haters, etc

[Skooby]

Get a big money group from Toronto that's willing to spend the money needed to buy the team & build a centrally located stadium in the Falls. I think you're going to see a $1.7 Billion sale just for the team, if they can afford that then the stadium shouldn't be a big deal.

[OpIv37]

Doesn't Ralphs family own the team? Can't they decide who they sell it to?

It's a bit more complicated than that but the simple answer is yes.

Here's the problem: does his family care about keeping the team in Buffalo, and if so, how much do they care?

If Golisano offers $850 million to keep the team here and Bon Jovi offers $1 bil to TO, maybe they tell him to take his extra $150mm and go **** himself.

But what if someone like Ballmer offers $1.85 billion? Are they really going to turn down a billion dollars just to keep the team in Buffalo?

Obviously this is example is a bit extreme and it's highly unlikely that there will be a difference of a billion between bids. But everyone has their price. What's Mary Wilson's? Also don't forget that Ralph and his family aren't from the area and don't have any ties or loyalty beyond the team itself.

[Skooby]

It's a bit more complicated than that but the simple answer is yes.

Here's the problem: does his family care about keeping the team in Buffalo, and if so, how much do they care?

If Golisano offers $850 million to keep the team here and Bon Jovi offers $1 bil to TO, maybe they tell him to take his extra $150mm and go **** himself.

But what if someone like Ballmer offers $1.85 billion? Are they really going to turn down a billion dollars just to keep the team in Buffalo?

Obviously this is example is a bit extreme and it's highly unlikely that there will be a difference of a billion between bids. But everyone has their price. What's Mary Wilson's? Also don't forget that Ralph and his family aren't from the area and don't have any ties or loyalty beyond the team itself.

It's not that extreme, some of the potential bidders on the Clippers we're around $1 Billion. They got blown out by a 1,000 Million dollars, that's a different league of money (quite literally).

[chris66]

Get a big money group from Toronto that's willing to spend the money needed to buy the team & build a centrally located stadium in the Falls. I think you're going to see a $1.7 Billion sale just for the team, if they can afford that then the stadium shouldn't be a big deal.so yoi wsnt Toronto money, but don't want them to own the team.
Why would they want to do that.

[Pinkerton Security]

This coming from an eternal optimist, if anyone on this board thought there WOULDNT be any bids from those outside of Buffalo and from those who want to move the team, then you need a reality check.

[Fletch]

We need to keep in mind that the NFL owners are not going to allow a new owner to relocate to another city and keep the value bump all to himself.

They will require a relocation fee of $200 - $500M in return for their approval for the move.

So an owner who is determined to move the Bills will need to invest considerably more than a local owner.

Now if a new owner buys the Bills, experiences poor attendance after raising prices substantially, can't get long corporate suite commitments and does not want to invest a dime of his own money in a new stadium in Buffalo, he can make an argument in 6-7 years in favour of a move (assuming a better location is then available).

Stating an intention to relocate the Bills from the start would be foolish.

Here's the rub, the only reason why it would make sense for an owner to move under those circumstances would be if the team makes more money for its owner and the league all the way around. If that were the case, I can see them allowing a new owner to simply buy out the lease and leave otherwise. If it would make more sense, for one reason or another, including "becoming an international league," then I can definitely see the league doing that.

[Fletch]

Also don't forget that Ralph and his family aren't from the area and don't have any ties or loyalty beyond the team itself.

Also don't forget that if Wilson really wanted to keep the team in Buffalo after his death, then he could have easily arranged it. I severely doubt that anyone has more of an interest that Wilson had, and to the extent that he even had such an interest. IMO he was just using us fans as leverage to keep his business afloat here. ... in hindsight. He clearly didn't give a lick about us after his passing.

[OpIv37]

Also don't forget that if Wilson really wanted to keep the team in Buffalo after his death, then he could have easily arranged it. I severely doubt that anyone has more of an interest that Wilson had, and to the extent that he even had such an interest. IMO he was just using us fans as leverage to keep his business afloat here. ... in hindsight. He clearly didn't give a lick about us after his passing.

Ralph knew his family didn't want the team. If he truly cared about keeping the team in Buffalo, why did t he just arrange a sale before his death to a local buyer? His family would get the money when he died without the hassle of selling the team, and he wouldn't be leaving the future of the team in WNY to chance.

It doesn't make sense. Sure, his family might get a little more money now, but they still would have had far more than enough if he sold while alive.

[chris66]

Thr real question I'd. Are the fans willing to spend the 5000 to 20000 on psl's and also be willing to spend 100 plus per ticket. If the answer is no. Why would an owner want to appease a fan base that onlu wants the product at .50 cents on the dollar

[Fletch]

Ralph knew his family didn't want the team. If he truly cared about keeping the team in Buffalo, why did t he just arrange a sale before his death to a local buyer? His family would get the money when he died without the hassle of selling the team, and he wouldn't be leaving the future of the team in WNY to chance.

It doesn't make sense. Sure, his family might get a little more money now, but they still would have had far more than enough if he sold while alive.

That's the point exactly.

I'm just wondering when we can stop pretending that Wilson was our best friend as fans wanting to keep the team here. What you just said was iterated by the team and him years ago.

Yet many, most seemingly, still seem to think that he was doing us some huge favor. He'd have been doing us a huge favor by hiring some competent management and by getting rid of the dead wood there that characterized his tenure.

- - - Updated - - -


Thr real question I'd. Are the fans willing to spend the 5000 to 20000 on psl's and also be willing to spend 100 plus per ticket. If the answer is no. Why would an owner want to appease a fan base that onlu wants the product at .50 cents on the dollar

What do you think?

You think that fans in Buffalo would pay thousands for a seat license, especially when there's no sign of this futility? ... other than on paper that is.

[SpikedLemonade]

Thr real question I'd. Are the fans willing to spend the 5000 to 20000 on psl's and also be willing to spend 100 plus per ticket. If the answer is no. Why would an owner want to appease a fan base that onlu wants the product at .50 cents on the dollar

B-I-N-G-O!!!!!

Bills fans love the Bills but at very low ticket prices relative to the NFL.

AND black outs occur.

[Fletch]

So it depends on how the trust is set up. If the trust says sell to the highest bidder, that is what they have to do. Nobody is saying what the trust specifies.

I believe that it was Brandon that came out and said that the team would be sold to the highest bidder not long ago.

There has been so much conflicting info, IMO that was intended. It serves as a nice smokescreen and provide optimum excuses for those that have dropped the ball on this issue over the years, the least of which is not Wilson himself.

[Fletch]

Doesn't it seem weird that Ralph made all these rules about moving the team but simply controlling who the team is sold to could easily overwrite that?

That doesn't seem weird at all. Would you want to buy a used car if the previous owner could limit how you drove it?

Or a business from a previous owner that could limit your business decisions?

Seems perfectly normal to me. What seems weird is anyone thinking that market economics and politics, whether they be NFL politics or municipal politics aside, will not be driving the outcome here.

[Fletch]

It's what some of us have been concerned about for many years and have said so...vocally. For that concern we're branded negative, haters, etc

We're used to that.

; )

[Fletch]

AND black outs occur.

Blackouts would occur far more often if not for business people that buy out the remainder days before games. I think last season "manufactured" sellouts happened four times on top of one blackout.

[Bill Cody]

I'm still cautiously optimistic, an out of state owner would have to wait to move the team and be dishonest or at the least discreet about his intentions of moving in 6 years. Because if he was up front RWS would be a ghost town and that's a fact. But it's certainly not a done deal. And that fact pisses me off and has pissed me off for years because the reason it isn't is just pure greed. And it should annoy every Bills fan that hasn't ordered the supersized glass of Ralph Kool Aid. If the trustees turn down a substantially higher bid from an out of state buyer I'll change my tune, not until.

[Homegrown]

I'm still cautiously optimistic, an out of state owner would have to wait to move the team and be dishonest or at the least discreet about his intentions of moving in 6 years. Because if he was up front RWS would be a ghost town and that's a fact. But it's certainly not a done deal. And that fact pisses me off and has pissed me off for years because the reason it isn't is just pure greed. And it should annoy every Bills fan that hasn't ordered the supersized glass of Ralph Kool Aid. If the trustees turn down a substantially higher bid from an out of state buyer I'll change my tune, not until.

^^^^^^^
end thread

[YardRat]

Not a surprise at all that some 'movers' would be interested in bidding for the team...we'll see how they make it through the vetting process. Also, the Clippers sale, while raising some eyebrows, IMO will prove to be an anomaly, as opposed to setting the new market for professional sports franchises. I'd be very surprised if the sale of the Bills approaches 1bil or exceeds it.

[swiper]

Here's the rub, the only reason why it would make sense for an owner to move under those circumstances would be if the team makes more money for its owner and the league all the way around. If that were the case, I can see them allowing a new owner to simply buy out the lease and leave otherwise. If it would make more sense, for one reason or another, including "becoming an international league," then I can definitely see the league doing that.

Yep. And the league WILL sit on this, even though there plan is to eventually move the Bills to a bigger market. That will be tried because it makes ALL the owners AND the league more money.

[Woodman]

It's just not up to the Wilson family.

The league will have a great deal to say about any deal.

Don't worry the Bills will stay.

For some summer fun we can waste our time figuring it out.

[Buckets]

Jerry Jones expressed it very well when he was interviewed in a piece on ESPN. In other words what he said was that out of respect some time needs to pass prior to people interested in moving the team coming forward to express that interest. There will be plenty whether it's Toronto or elsewhere. The implication in his statements however was that there's a good chance of the team moving, otherwise he would have taken a more "there's nothing for Bills fans to worry about" approach, which clearly wasn't the message.

I think that this is heating up now though. I'm sure that there will be plenty of news and reports between now and the start of training camp.

If this is the case why are we even considering a new stadium? Are we dumb enough to build or even invest preliminary study funds so that in 5 or 8 years the team will be moved? I say that we let potential suitors know that if anyone is truly interested in keeping the team in Buffalo a new stadium will be built with long a term agreement attached. It doesn't sound like our own politicians are confident that we can keep the team here. Put the new stadium talk on the back burner till we get a comitment

[YardRat]

lol...somebody's really playing their cards well...you can almost hear the politician's feet slamming the pavement as they line up to vote 'yes' on expending funds for a new stadium.

[Skooby]

If this is the case why are we even considering a new stadium? Are we dumb enough to build or even invest preliminary study funds so that in 5 or 8 years the team will be moved? I say that we let potential suitors know that if anyone is truly interested in keeping the team in Buffalo a new stadium will be built with long a term agreement attached. It doesn't sound like our own politicians are confident that we can keep the team here. Put the new stadium talk on the back burner till we get a comitment

Chuck has the sword hanging over the NFL in a stalled bill:

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Sports/2013/12/08/Political-Battle-Over-NFL-s-Tax-Exempt-Status-Focuses-Attention-on-Sports-Crony-Capitalism

[DunkCityFan]

The NFL will want bidders from LA and big markets to drive up the price. If they say, "no moving team," local interests have less competition.

Option 2: Sell the team to someone with the intent to move in 6 years, someone willing to spend 2 billion on the Bills. Build stadium in Buffalo, and do a Cleveland thing where the original Bills move, leave names and records, and the new Buffalo owner needs to buy a new franchise in 6 years for the new stadium. Then the NFL gets relocation fees and new franchise fees and TOP $$$ for a small market transaction.

[The King]

Also don't forget that Ralph and his family aren't from the area and don't have any ties or loyalty beyond the team itself. But you would think that they would like to honor their fathers wishes when it came to one of the last things he did.

[better days]

B-I-N-G-O!!!!!

Bills fans love the Bills but at very low ticket prices relative to the NFL.

AND black outs occur.

Name me a City that hasn't made the playoffs for 14 years that would sell out every game.

[Skooby]

Name me a City that hasn't made the playoffs for 14 years that would sell out every game.

Green Bay.

[Mace]

I just don't really see the comparison. Yeah, a guy like Ballmer can do what he wants, wouldn't care about the penalties. But Ballmer himself pointed out the circumstances were the price. The Clippers are a winning NBA franchise atm, in a huge market proven to support the sport.

Is that really relevant to hm, moving the Bills to LA for 1 billion plus another half in penalties, plus another billion to build a stadium ?

Any really rich person can afford to do it, but really, why would they ? More likely a Ballmer buys the Chargers or the Raiders, even St. Louis Rams, they have a name recognition and some degree of regional following in a market without a stadium and a boatload of apathy.

That 2 billion for the Clippers spins into 3 going on 4 billion of maybe real quick for taking the Bills or another marginal franchise. It's almost about as feasible as buying a good CFL team and forcing a merger.

It's not mentioned much because there is no sense to it.

[better days]

Green Bay.

Maybe. And maybe the Bears, Cowboys, Giants & Redskins also. Any others?

I really don't think so.

[coastal]

And can local buyers match bids from buyers from places like LA?This has been the one thing that has stuck in my mind since the passing of Ralph.

There's an awful lot of money outside of WNY, and the NFL is BIG business.

If there is more money to be made by moving the team, I don't care what anyone is saying right now, a new owner will do it... and the NFL will support it.

[Bill Cody]

But you would think that they would like to honor their fathers wishes when it came to one of the last things he did.

The father wished to let a trust decide who to sell the Bills to in a competitive bidding process. That's all we really know.

[OpIv37]

This has been the one thing that has stuck in my mind since the passing of Ralph.

There's an awful lot of money outside of WNY, and the NFL is BIG business.

If there is more money to be made by moving the team, I don't care what anyone is saying right now, a new owner will do it... and the NFL will support it.
Agreed. It all comes down to the bottom dollar.

If the NFL thinks a fickle fan base with more money like LA or Toronto is more profitable, the team moves.

If the NFL thinks the Bills are more profitable with the small but consistent fan base in Buffalo, they stay.

And by "NFL" I really mean the other owners. All they want are teams like Buffalo to make more money so they don't have to subsidize them through revenue sharing. And they don't care if it happens in Buffalo or somewhere else, as long as it happens.

[coastal]

Agreed. It all comes down to the bottom dollar.

If the NFL thinks a fickle fan base with more money like LA or Toronto is more profitable, the team moves.

If the NFL thinks the Bills are more profitable with the small but consistent fan base in Buffalo, they stay.

And by "NFL" I really mean the other owners. All they want are teams like Buffalo to make more money so they don't have to subsidize them through revenue sharing. And they don't care if it happens in Buffalo or somewhere else, as long as it happens.
That and a new owner is going to want to build equity on his investment.

the easiest way to do that IMO is move to a city like LA or become part of the NFL's international explanation plans.

[better days]

That and a new owner is going to want to build equity on his investment.

the easiest way to do that IMO is move to a city like LA or become part of the NFL's international explanation plans.

If the new owner has no ties to Buffalo the Bills will move.

If the new owner has ties to Buffalo, he is not buying the team to build equity. He is buying the team to keep it in Buffalo & the Bills will make enough money to keep him happy.

[coastal]

If the new owner has no ties to Buffalo the Bills will move.

If the new owner has ties to Buffalo, he is not buying the team to build equity. He is buying the team to keep it in Buffalo & the Bills will make enough money to keep him happy.
Then the question becomes... how much more is an outside group willing to pay for the Bills?

Lets say say a local buyer comes in at $800 million. Do you think a buyer interested in moving the team to London or Toronto or LA would be willing to pay $1.2 billion... a $400 million difference?

What if someone did and immediately following the move, the franchise is valued at $1.6 or $1.8 billion?

That owner just made a transaction that bumped his net worth by $400-$600 million.

thats the problem here.

[better days]

Then the question becomes... how much more is an outside group willing to pay for the Bills?

Lets say say a local buyer comes in at $800 million. Do you think a buyer interested in moving the team to London or Toronto or LA would be willing to pay $1.2 billion... a $400 million difference?

What if someone did and immediately following the move, the franchise is valued at $1.6 or $1.8 billion?

That owner just made a transaction that bumped his net worth by $400-$600 million.

thats the problem here.

The real question is if there is a provision in place where a local bidder can match the highest bid.

[coastal]

The real question is if there is a provision in place where a local bidder can match the highest bid.
No... the real question is whether the cost of moving the franchise (penalties, excess purchase price, moving fees, stadium costs, whatever) is more or less than the equity gained after a move.

a local bidder has a ceiling in terms of value and it's probably under $1 billion.

[better days]

No... the real question is whether the cost of moving the franchise (penalties, excess purchase price, moving fees, stadium costs, whatever) is more or less than the equity gained after a move.

a local bidder has a ceiling in terms of value and it's probably under $1 billion.

No, Robert Rich has said he & his friends view the Buffalo Bills as a cultural asset like the Albright-Knox Art Gallery is to the Buffalo area.

The Abright-Knox Art Gallery was not built to provide equity, it was built to enrich the lives of Buffalonians.

The Bills will remain in Buffalo for the same reason, because WEALTHY Buffalonians want to see the team remain in Buffalo because they veiw the Bills as a cultural ASSET.

[coastal]

No, Robert Rich has said he & his friends view the Buffalo Bills as a cultural asset like the Albright-Knox Art Gallery is to the Buffalo area.

The Abright-Knox Art Gallery was not built to provide equity, it was built to enrich the lives of Buffalonians.

The Bills will remain in Buffalo for the same reason, because WEALTHY Buffalonians want to see the team remain in Buffalo because they veiw the Bills as a cultural ASSET.i don't know why I even bother engaging you troll.

carry on with whatever social experiment you're conducting.

[EDS]

No, Robert Rich has said he & his friends view the Buffalo Bills as a cultural asset like the Albright-Knox Art Gallery is to the Buffalo area.

The Abright-Knox Art Gallery was not built to provide equity, it was built to enrich the lives of Buffalonians.

The Bills will remain in Buffalo for the same reason, because WEALTHY Buffalonians want to see the team remain in Buffalo because they veiw the Bills as a cultural ASSET.

The art gallery is different in that it is a not-for-profit entity that survives based on donations and tax exempt status. The Bills area for-profit entity which can sustain loses annually which exposes the owners to such loses (rather then just the amount of their donations). So the wealthy Buffalonians need to have the financial commitment to support the team (and the wherewithal to withstand any loses in connection with the operation of the team) in Buffalo.

It is not unheard of certaintly. Recent acquisitions of the Boston Globe and Washington Post by local businessmen with deep pockets are examples of wealthy individuals making a business decisions with an eye towards preserving local institutions (in this case, the respective newspapers). The Bills will cost quite a bit more than either paper of course.

[Skooby]

i don't know why I even bother engaging you troll.

carry on with whatever social experiment you're conducting.

I spit my drink out reading this, lol.

[SpikedLemonade]

i don't know why I even bother engaging you troll.

carry on with whatever social experiment you're conducting.

He's incredible isn't he?

[better days]

i don't know why I even bother engaging you troll.

carry on with whatever social experiment you're conducting.

You can continue to FANTASIZE about the Bills moving TROLL.

Unlike you, I am a Bills fan, not a TROLL like you that wants to see them moved.

[better days]

The art gallery is different in that it is a not-for-profit entity that survives based on donations and tax exempt status. The Bills area for-profit entity which can sustain loses annually which exposes the owners to such loses (rather then just the amount of their donations). So the wealthy Buffalonians need to have the financial commitment to support the team (and the wherewithal to withstand any loses in connection with the operation of the team) in Buffalo.

It is not unheard of certaintly. Recent acquisitions of the Boston Globe and Washington Post by local businessmen with deep pockets are examples of wealthy individuals making a business decisions with an eye towards preserving local institutions (in this case, the respective newspapers). The Bills will cost quite a bit more than either paper of course.

Robert Rich has said a number of times, He & his friends (the WEALTHY people of Buffalo including the Knox family) view the Bills as a cultural asset to the community just as the Albright-Knox Art Gallery is.

He said they would do everything in their power to keep the Bills in Buffalo, & I believe him.

[chris66]

If you look at it from a purely business sense. Keeping the team in Buffalo doesn't make sense. Buffalonians are not going to pay the kind of money that Toronto can pay

In Toronto pls will start at five grand, luxury suites will sell for 250, 000 vs 75, 000.

The biggest threat is that there will be no relocation fee. Toronto owners will argue that its the same region because they will not be granted an expansion team because the Bills are going to state that the Toronto, Buffalo, Rochester triangle is their market.

[better days]

If you look at it from a purely business sense. Keeping the team in Buffalo doesn't make sense. Buffalonians are not going to pay the kind of money that Toronto can pay

In Toronto pls will start at five grand, luxury suites will sell for 250, 000 vs 75, 000.

The biggest threat is that there will be no relocation fee. Toronto owners will argue that its the same region because they will not be granted an expansion team because the Bills are going to state that the Toronto, Buffalo, Rochester triangle is their market.

It boils down to who buys the team. If it is someone with no ties to Buffalo, the Bills will be moved.

If as I expect, someone with ties to Buffalo buys the Bills, that person is doing so for altruistic reasons with no expectation of making a killing financially.

[trapezeus]

There is a lot of money out there but in buffalo's favor are:
1. The NFL doesn't like ownership groups
2. they don't like owners financing it.

These two things limit the pool significantly. If you could finance the purchase in a group, you'd have $100MM guys working with each other getting big loans, and there would be a ton of bids, each one as aggressive as their banks and lenders will allow.

The nfl has asked for stability with a majority owner who can foot the bill himself. That means you have to have $1.5BN or more to legitimately have a chance

on the owners pros for buffalo:

1. We have some $1BN-$3BN men in the area and love the team and area. The guys who have $10BN and more are far and few between and none of those guys are truly in play for the bills. There are no oil sheiks, no bill gates types saying, "i want that team"

on the legal hurdles as pros for buffalo:

1. We have a big name senator with influence and an aspiring presidential candidate.
2. The lease, as publicly discussed, has a lot of bells and whistles that make moving it very difficult. having not seen the document or know anything about sport leases, perhaps there are outs, but the general concensus is it makes moving hard.
3. To that point, if the lease is very strongly worded to stay in buffalo, the NFL owners voted to approve that lease in 2012. We never heard boo about there being a discontent from a fraction of owners. So to that extent, i actually believe the owners would like to see a viable owner take the bills over and stay in buffalo. The league format favors it with AFC EAST. They've talked in the past they hated reallignment and wouldn't want to do it again. And you have the owners remembering the overages on the move of the rams from LA to STL. I think if they see an owner that is willing to keep juicing the blood from the stone and find innovative ways to increase revenue from the area, they will be happy. And if the state is willing to throw a little money to help with a stadium and not make a big stink about their anti-trust exempt status, that's the price they'll pay for not being in another gigantic market.

The negatives are that there could be a monster offer that's too good to pass on.But i don't see who has that money and passion to do it. and i actually think an ownership group between a golisano, pegula and jacobs witha higher offer would be the big save. and all three people could get land deals to make it profitable. it's just a matter if their egos can handle it. The NFL could look the other way on an ownership group that has one of the largest combined net worth's not including the football team.

[Dr. Who]

You can continue to FANTASIZE about the Bills moving TROLL.

Unlike you, I am a Bills fan, not a TROLL like you that wants to see them moved.

He's completely shameless. I don't think that's a virtue, but you have to give him that.

[better days]

There is a lot of money out there but in buffalo's favor are:
1. The NFL doesn't like ownership groups
2. they don't like owners financing it.

These two things limit the pool significantly. If you could finance the purchase in a group, you'd have $100MM guys working with each other getting big loans, and there would be a ton of bids, each one as aggressive as their banks and lenders will allow.

The nfl has asked for stability with a majority owner who can foot the bill himself. That means you have to have $1.5BN or more to legitimately have a chance

on the owners pros for buffalo:

1. We have some $1BN-$3BN men in the area and love the team and area. The guys who have $10BN and more are far and few between and none of those guys are truly in play for the bills. There are no oil sheiks, no bill gates types saying, "i want that team"

on the legal hurdles as pros for buffalo:

1. We have a big name senator with influence and an aspiring presidential candidate.
2. The lease, as publicly discussed, has a lot of bells and whistles that make moving it very difficult. having not seen the document or know anything about sport leases, perhaps there are outs, but the general concensus is it makes moving hard.
3. To that point, if the lease is very strongly worded to stay in buffalo, the NFL owners voted to approve that lease in 2012. We never heard boo about there being a discontent from a fraction of owners. So to that extent, i actually believe the owners would like to see a viable owner take the bills over and stay in buffalo. The league format favors it with AFC EAST. They've talked in the past they hated reallignment and wouldn't want to do it again. And you have the owners remembering the overages on the move of the rams from LA to STL. I think if they see an owner that is willing to keep juicing the blood from the stone and find innovative ways to increase revenue from the area, they will be happy. And if the state is willing to throw a little money to help with a stadium and not make a big stink about their anti-trust exempt status, that's the price they'll pay for not being in another gigantic market.

The negatives are that there could be a monster offer that's too good to pass on.But i don't see who has that money and passion to do it. and i actually think an ownership group between a golisano, pegula and jacobs witha higher offer would be the big save. and all three people could get land deals to make it profitable. it's just a matter if their egos can handle it. The NFL could look the other way on an ownership group that has one of the largest combined net worth's not including the football team.

And Buffalo is just at the beginning of a resurgence. It will never be LA or NYC or Chicago or Dallas or Toronto.

But Buffalo in 2020 will most likely be a better, richer Buffalo than it is today.

And I talked to a tourist from Toronto the other day. She told me there has been a large influx of immigrants that have come to Toronto in the last couple years.

Those people are NOT NFL fans.

[DraftBoy]

Robert Rich has said a number of times, He & his friends (the WEALTHY people of Buffalo including the Knox family) view the Bills as a cultural asset to the community just as the Albright-Knox Art Gallery is.

That is by far one of the dumbest analogies I've heard during this entire process. Kudos to Robert Rich for that gem...

[better days]

That is by far one of the dumbest analogies I've heard during this entire process. Kudos to Robert Rich for that gem...

OK SMART guy, EXPLAIN what is dumb about that analogy.

[DraftBoy]

OK SMART guy, EXPLAIN what is dumb about that analogy.

You mean outside of the very basic for-profit v. non-profit premise?

Well one is a building while the other is a professional sports team. One is intended to enrich lives through the display of art, music, and education while the other is a professional sports team. One offers classes and tours for people of all ages while the other is a professional sports team. One actually provides cultural enrichment while the other is a professional sports team.

You really need me to keep going?

[coastal]

Parking lot alcoholism isn't cultural enrichment?

[swiper]

You can continue to FANTASIZE about the Bills moving TROLL.

Unlike you, I am a Bills fan, not a TROLL like you that wants to see them moved.

coastal will tell you that we are each other's favorite posters, however him being able to see the bigger picture (that you cannot) doesn't mean he's rooting to see the team move. It's the same failed argument you try and make when you tell me that I think Erik Pears is good. People tell you facts. You ignore them because you're short-sighted. It's your own fault that you get the crap you get here.

[better days]

You mean outside of the very basic for-profit v. non-profit premise?

Well one is a building while the other is a professional sports team. One is intended to enrich lives through the display of art, music, and education while the other is a professional sports team. One offers classes and tours for people of all ages while the other is a professional sports team. One actually provides cultural enrichment while the other is a professional sports team.

You really need me to keep going?

It is NOT the building that enriches the lives of the people of Buffalo, but what is INSIDE the Building.

The point Rich made was that like the Albright-Knox Art Gallery which enriches the lives of Buffalonians, So do the Buffalo Bills (a professional Football team).

And he said he & his friends veiw the Bills as a CULTURAL Asset that enriches the lives of the people of Buffalo.

He said he and his friends will do everything in their power to keep the Bills in Buffalo for that reason.

And while not everyone is a football fan, not everyone is an art fan either.

[DraftBoy]

It is NOT the building that enriches the lives of the people of Buffalo, but what is INSIDE the Building.

The point Rich made was that like the Albright-Knox Art Gallery which enriches the lives of Buffalonians, So do the Buffalo Bills (a professional Football team).

And he said he & his friends veiw the Bills as a CULTURAL Asset that enriches the lives of the people of Buffalo.

He said he and his friends will do everything in their power to keep the Bills in Buffalo for that reason.

And while not everyone is a football fan, not everyone is an art fan either.

No it doesn't enrich lives, that is among the dumbest things said to date. Nobody gives a **** what he and his friends view the Bills as. If he truly believes that then step up to the plate and put the money down. Don't give us the PR bull**** about cultural enrichment that just makes you look like an idiot.

You don't have to be a fan of art to understand what it is and appreciate it for that.

[better days]

coastal will tell you that we are each other's favorite posters, however him being able to see the bigger picture (that you cannot) doesn't mean he's rooting to see the team move. It's the same failed argument you try and make when you tell me that I think Erik Pears is good. People tell you facts. You ignore them because you're short-sighted. It's your own fault that you get the crap you get here.

You and Coastal are each others favorite posters because you & he are most likely the same person.

And if you don't think Pears is Good, then you & I have no argument about him. So why did you say I was wrong when I said he was TERRIBLE?

[better days]

No it doesn't enrich lives, that is among the dumbest things said to date. Nobody gives a **** what he and his friends view the Bills as. If he truly believes that then step up to the plate and put the money down. Don't give us the PR bull**** about cultural enrichment that just makes you look like an idiot.

You don't have to be a fan of art to understand what it is and appreciate it for that.

He said that they will do everything in their power to keep the Bills in Buffalo.

That would include someone from Buffalo buying the team to keep it there.

And if you don't think football enriches your life, why do you waste so much time on it?

And NOBODY has to appreciate art anymore than football.

[SpikedLemonade]

Parking lot alcoholism isn't cultural enrichment?

Don't you know that all those drunks are Canadians?

[swiper]

You and Coastal are each others favorite posters because you & he are most likely the same person.

And if you don't think Pears is Good, then you & I have no argument about him. So why did you say I was wrong when I said he was TERRIBLE?

He's not terrible. And coastal lives in Florida. I live in New York State. You don't follow well.

[better days]

He's not terrible. And coastal lives in Florida. I live in New York State. You don't follow well.

You can say you live anywhere.

I lived in Florida & Canada for a number of years.

And if Pears is not GOOD or Terrible what is he?

And YES Pears was TERRIBLE last year.

[chris66]

It is NOT the building that enriches the lives of the people of Buffalo, but what is INSIDE the Building.

The point Rich made was that like the Albright-Knox Art Gallery which enriches the lives of Buffalonians, So do the Buffalo Bills (a professional Football team).

And he said he & his friends veiw the Bills as a CULTURAL Asset that enriches the lives of the people of Buffalo.

He said he and his friends will do everything in their power to keep the Bills in Buffalo for that reason.

And while not everyone is a football fan, not everyone is an art fan either.
Is Rich going to plunk down the 1.4 billion its going to take to buy the Bills and keep them local

[better days]

Is Rich going to plunk down the 1.4 billion its going to take to buy the Bills and keep them local

He said he would prefer someone else buy the team to keep it in Buffalo, but if necessary, he would get involved.

[DraftBoy]

He said that they will do everything in their power to keep the Bills in Buffalo.

That would include someone from Buffalo buying the team to keep it there.

And if you don't think football enriches your life, why do you waste so much time on it?

And NOBODY has to appreciate art anymore than football.

Yea I don't care until his words become actual actions.

Because I enjoy it? I don't need football in my life to enrich it. I have a family, friends, a job, and other interests to do that for me. If you (plural) need a professional sports team to enrich your own life then you really may want to reevaluate some of your decisions.

Your last sentence doesn't make any sense.

[DraftBoy]

He said he would prefer someone else buy the team to keep it in Buffalo, but if necessary, he would get involved.

So he's just flapping his gums...like I said nobody gives a crap about what he wants to have happen unless he's putting his money down. Since he's stated he would prefer not to, he's just wasting time and giving PR lip service.

[Skooby]

So he's just flapping his gums...like I said nobody gives a crap about what he wants to have happen unless he's putting his money down. Since he's stated he would prefer not to, he's just wasting time and giving PR lip service.

If big talk was money in Buffalo, the town would be full of Billionaires.

[better days]

If big talk was money in Buffalo, the town would be full of Billionaires.

Well Buffalo has its share of Billionaires.

[OpIv37]

Yea I don't care until his words become actual actions.

Because I enjoy it? I don't need football in my life to enrich it. I have a family, friends, a job, and other interests to do that for me. If you (plural) need a professional sports team to enrich your own life then you really may want to reevaluate some of your decisions.

Your last sentence doesn't make any sense.
His last sentence? 95% of the garbage he posts doesn't make sense.

We should have stopped listening after he said Tebow would be a great NFL QB.

[better days]

Yea I don't care until his words become actual actions.

Because I enjoy it? I don't need football in my life to enrich it. I have a family, friends, a job, and other interests to do that for me. If you (plural) need a professional sports team to enrich your own life then you really may want to reevaluate some of your decisions.

Your last sentence doesn't make any sense.

If you enjoy something, then that ENRICHES your life.

You said you don't have to like art to appreciate it. Well I am sure there are people in this world that don't appreciate art just as there are people that don't appreciate football.

And yeah, we will find out soon about Rich's words becoming actions.

[swiper]

You can say you live anywhere.

I lived in Florida & Canada for a number of years.

And if Pears is not GOOD or Terrible what is he?

And YES Pears was TERRIBLE last year.

I cannot be nice to such doucheb@g id**t anymore. They should ban you for life.

[SpikedLemonade]

I cannot be nice to such doucheb@g id**t anymore. They should ban you for life.

Ah leave CAPtain Homer alone. He is harmless and predictable.

When the Bills don't make the play-offs this year, he will just blame EJ regardless of what the rest of the team does.

[BertSquirtgum]

Smelly farts

[better days]

Ah leave CAPtain Homer alone. He is harmless and predictable.

When the Bills don't make the play-offs this year, he will just blame EJ regardless of what the rest of the team does.

I will most likely blame the Coaching if the Bills don't make the playoffs unless EJ gets injured again.

[better days]

I cannot be nice to such doucheb@g id**t anymore. They should ban you for life.

Swipe my AZZ.

[trapezeus]

immigrants don't become football fans? that's odd. my dad came to buffalo in 1971. by the time i was born, having lived in buffalo for a few years, he was very much into it. We go to games with season tickets to this day. we talk about the games and off season happenings all the time.

i think what you meant to say is that toronto isn't a football town. and as such, there isn't a huge push to get into it. but i bet you those immigrants get into the maple leafs. because it is important to the area. it's a hockey town.

[better days]

immigrants don't become football fans? that's odd. my dad came to buffalo in 1971. by the time i was born, having lived in buffalo for a few years, he was very much into it. We go to games with season tickets to this day. we talk about the games and off season happenings all the time.

i think what you meant to say is that toronto isn't a football town. and as such, there isn't a huge push to get into it. but i bet you those immigrants get into the maple leafs. because it is important to the area. it's a hockey town.

Yeah, most of it is Toronto & Canada in General having Hockey as their sport.

And I think it will take a while before many of them get into hockey.

Did your dad come from another Country?

My Grandparents did. My father loved football & played it in high school.

My Grandfather on the other hand, never got into football.

[DraftBoy]

immigrants don't become football fans? that's odd. my dad came to buffalo in 1971. by the time i was born, having lived in buffalo for a few years, he was very much into it. We go to games with season tickets to this day. we talk about the games and off season happenings all the time.

i think what you meant to say is that toronto isn't a football town. and as such, there isn't a huge push to get into it. but i bet you those immigrants get into the maple leafs. because it is important to the area. it's a hockey town.

Shhh...facts have no place in this discussion.

[DraftBoy]

If you enjoy something, then that ENRICHES your life.

No its simply something I do for enjoyment, I'm not a better person for it or without it.


You said you don't have to like art to appreciate it. Well I am sure there are people in this world that don't appreciate art just as there are people that don't appreciate football.

Again that makes no sense.


And yeah, we will find out soon about Rich's words becoming actions.

We already know what his action will be, that's inaction. He's said as much himself.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Not to be too technical but doesn't something that brings you enjoyment in a way enrich your life?

[better days]

1

[THATHURMANATOR]

One other thing I would like to add is that the Buffalo Bills bring the city pride, or heartache but either way we are emotionally entrenched in the team.

DB I understand you don't live here and it is really impossible for you to feel that same way.

Will I be ok if the team leaves? Of course. Will I in the same breath be depressed? Of course.

The team leaving will bring a cloud of depression to the city that will take some time to recover from but we will.

I am personally not even worried about it anymore. If it happens it happens. I can't sit and wonder about it anymore.

[better days]

No its simply something I do for enjoyment, I'm not a better person for it or without it.

Art brings enjoyment to people as well. But it does not make them a better person any more than football does.

I don't think Rich was talking about making people a better person, he was talking about art & football as things that people enjoy and would miss if they did not have access to them.



Again that makes no sense.

Yes it does make sense. I guess you are just too dense to understand.



We already know what his action will be, that's inaction. He's said as much himself.

Rich included his friends when he said that & he did say he would get involved if need be.

​If I was wrong to believe him & a new owner buys the Bills that wants to move them, I will stop watching the Bills & leave this board.

[better days]

No its simply something I do for enjoyment, I'm not a better person for it or without it.

I might add, Adolph Hitler was an art lover.

So much so that he stole every piece of art he could get his hands on.

I doubt Hitler's love & appreciation of art made him a better person.

[DraftBoy]

Not to be too technical but doesn't something that brings you enjoyment in a way enrich your life?

It can be but its not a mutually inclusive definition;


enrichment - act of making fuller or more meaningful or rewarding

By the definition above my life is no more or less full by simply watching the Bills.

At this points its become a semantics based argument.

- - - Updated - - -


One other thing I would like to add is that the Buffalo Bills bring the city pride, or heartache but either way we are emotionally entrenched in the team.

DB I understand you don't live here and it is really impossible for you to feel that same way.

Will I be ok if the team leaves? Of course. Will I in the same breath be depressed? Of course.

The team leaving will bring a cloud of depression to the city that will take some time to recover from but we will.

I am personally not even worried about it anymore. If it happens it happens. I can't sit and wonder about it anymore.

I get it and I used to live in the City, though I would never move back.

Its a sad reality of what it would do to the City, but its a reality for a lot of small market teams.

[DraftBoy]

Rich included his friends when he said that & he did say he would get involved if need be.

​If I was wrong to believe him & a new owner buys the Bills that wants to move them, I will stop watching the Bills & leave this board.

1. Actually art does do that. Also I know that, hence why Rich sounds like an idiot.

2. No it really doesn't.

3. Yea ok...we'll see what he does when he sits on his hands. Why would you leave the board? People say things all the time that others believe, its really not that serious.

- - - Updated - - -


I might add, Adolph Hitler was an art lover.

So much so that he stole every piece of art he could get his hands on.

I doubt Hitler's love & appreciation of art made him a better person.

Correction, what Rich said is now the 2nd dumbest thing I've read on this topic. This takes the cake, congratulations for that I guess.

[better days]

1. Actually art does do that. Also I know that, hence why Rich sounds like an idiot.

2. No it really doesn't.

3. Yea ok...we'll see what he does when he sits on his hands. Why would you leave the board? People say things all the time that others believe, its really not that serious.

- - - Updated - - -



Correction, what Rich said is now the 2nd dumbest thing I've read on this topic. This takes the cake, congratulations for that I guess.

It is a FACT Hitler was an art lover. In fact, he was a failed painter before starting the Nazi party.

Love & appreciation of Art does not make anyone a better person anymore than the love & appreciation of football.

And if the Bills ever move, they will no longer be the Buffalo Bills and have no more meaning to me than any other team.

I would no longer have any reason to root for them.

[THATHURMANATOR]

It can be but its not a mutually inclusive definition;



By the definition above my life is no more or less full by simply watching the Bills.

At this points its become a semantics based argument.

- - - Updated - - -



I get it and I used to live in the City, though I would never move back.

Its a sad reality of what it would do to the City, but its a reality for a lot of small market teams.

I hear you although I don't necessarily think it is sad what it would do to the City. It would do the same to any city who actually love their team.

[Bill Cody]

That is by far one of the dumbest analogies I've heard during this entire process. Kudos to Robert Rich for that gem...

Ok I assume you're objecting to the word "culture" here. That's fair but even if you pull it out it's not debatable that the Bills are an asset to the community- economically and socially for sure. You're sounding a bit of a snob when you're pressing the "I don't need football to enrich your life" angle though. Whether you do or don't isn't really too relevant. The Bills are a great source of pride and entertainment for many thousands, that's enriching their lives by definition. This is really kind of a painful debate please stop.

[Bill Cody]

It is a FACT Hitler was an art lover. In fact, he was a failed painter before starting the Nazi party.

Love & appreciation of Art does not make anyone a better person anymore than the love & appreciation of football.

And if the Bills ever move, they will no longer be the Buffalo Bills and have no more meaning to me than any other team.

I would no longer have any reason to root for them.

Hitler references are never necessary or appropriate in virtually ANY argument. You can make your point without bringing up a mass murderer. Ok?

[trapezeus]

Yeah, most of it is Toronto & Canada in General having Hockey as their sport.

And I think it will take a while before many of them get into hockey.

Did your dad come from another Country?

My Grandparents did. My father loved football & played it in high school.

My Grandfather on the other hand, never got into football.

Yes, he came from India. Knew nothign of the game and never played. His friends coach high school football and he follows that as well as college football. i've never seen a guy be able to predict the outcome of results of games. He wants the bills to win one as bad as anyone else.

my point was simply that living in buffalo, you assimilate to the local customs. and our customs are to love the bills. Toronto doesn't have that. they have hockey. and i guess that supports your cultural enrichment piece.

[DraftBoy]

I hear you although I don't necessarily think it is sad what it would do to the City. It would do the same to any city who actually love their team.

I don't think it has anything to do with the idea of "love" for ones team. Losing the Bills would put a very serious crunch on the economy and do harm to the city itself. That was more the depression I hoped you were talking about.

[DraftBoy]

Ok I assume you're objecting to the word "culture" here. That's fair but even if you pull it out it's not debatable that the Bills are an asset to the community- economically and socially for sure. You're sounding a bit of a snob when you're pressing the "I don't need football to enrich your life" angle though. Whether you do or don't isn't really too relevant. The Bills are a great source of pride and entertainment for many thousands, that's enriching their lives by definition. This is really kind of a painful debate please stop.

I didn't say they weren't an asset. They bring in tens of millions of dollars every year in taxable revenue, not to mention the land they play on is leased and is a huge profit to the County.

It's not that I don't need it to, its that it doesn't do what Rich said it does and its ignorant to argue that it does.

To each their own, though I truly do hope the thousands you claim use a football team as a source of pride have more in their life to be proud of than a professional sports team regardless of the league. That seems like a horribly depressing way to go through life.

[DraftBoy]

Hitler references are never necessary or appropriate in virtually ANY argument. You can make your point without bringing up a mass murderer. Ok?

It was a fallacy based point regardless of the piss poor reference. Not sure if you'd call it more circular logic or an argument of ignorance, but either way its all there.

[Bill Cody]

I didn't say they weren't an asset. They bring in tens of millions of dollars every year in taxable revenue, not to mention the land they play on is leased and is a huge profit to the County.

It's not that I don't need it to, its that it doesn't do what Rich said it does and its ignorant to argue that it does.

To each their own, though I truly do hope the thousands you claim use a football team as a source of pride have more in their life to be proud of than a professional sports team regardless of the league. That seems like a horribly depressing way to go through life.

As you say, to each their own. Personally I think it means a lot and I'm far from depressed.

[DraftBoy]

As you say, to each their own. Personally I think it means a lot and I'm far from depressed.

I didn't say it meaning more to you meant you were depressed...not sure how you came to that conclusion.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I don't think it has anything to do with the idea of "love" for ones team. Losing the Bills would put a very serious crunch on the economy and do harm to the city itself. That was more the depression I hoped you were talking about.

Oh got you.

I honestly don't think it would have that much of an economic impact if they left really.

[Bill Cody]

I didn't say it meaning more to you meant you were depressed...not sure how you came to that conclusion.

um...because you said if a football team was a source of pride for folks that it was a "horribly depressing way to go through life". It really isn't.

[swiper]

I have never blocked another poster. Not Spiked. Not coastal. Not wagon. Not Gilly, Danny Boy or jlb. I am very close to blocking Better Days. The more I have to read the closer to ******ed I become. I have never read as many ******ed posts from one person since Al Gore invented the internet.

Having to take time out of my life to try and comprehend that an adult just said this:


http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by better dayshttp://www.billszone.com/fanzone/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png
(http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?p=3953659#post3953659)If you enjoy something, then that ENRICHES your life.

Well it just wastes my life. He makes statements like this every day.

http://www.personal.psu.edu/afr3/blogs/SIOW/IQ%20testing.jpg

[better days]

Hitler references are never necessary or appropriate in virtually ANY argument. You can make your point without bringing up a mass murderer. Ok?

Some people need to be hit over the head with a sledgehammer to get the point.

DraftBoy is such a person.

His insists the love & appreciation of art makes someone a better person while football does not.

I had to show the most extreme example to prove he was wrong.

My Father landed in the 2nd wave on Omaha beach 70 years ago today.

He was later wounded in the Battle of the Bulge. He won the Purple Cross & the Bronze Star in that Battle.

I don't think there is any problem referencing Hitler as long as it is not done in a positive light.

RIP Dad, thinking of you today as always.

[better days]

It was a fallacy based point regardless of the piss poor reference. Not sure if you'd call it more circular logic or an argument of ignorance, but either way its all there.

EXACTLY how was it a fallacy based point?

[better days]

And I have been wrong about some things in the past.

NOBODY is perfect.

But all Buffalo Bills fans better hope & pray I am not wrong about this subject.

[stuckincincy]

I had to show the most extreme example to prove he was wrong. My Father landed in the 2nd wave on Omaha beach 70 years ago today.

He was later wounded in the Battle of the Bulge. He won the Purple Cross & the Bronze Star in that Battle.

I don't think there is any problem referencing Hitler as long as it is not done in a positive light.

RIP Dad, thinking of you today as always.


:up:

[Bill Cody]

I had to show the most extreme example to prove he was wrong.

No you really didn't

[better days]

No you really didn't

Yeah, I did. & even after that he doesn't think he is wrong.

[BuffaloRedleg]

um...because you said if a football team was a source of pride for folks that it was a "horribly depressing way to go through life". It really isn't.

I'm quite proud of the Buffalo fans and being apart of the community. It's the community that I'm proud of, even if the team is terrible and I'm not proud of them (you know, for the past 13 years).

You are right there is nothing depressing about that. It would be nice to be proud of the team, but I don't think I'll ever be too proud of a bunch of hyperathletic freaks who get paid millions of dollars to play a game, and would just as soon play for another team as they would ours.

It's about the community and I cherish being a part of it. That's what I'd miss the most about the Bills leaving and it would leave a huge hole in most of our lives.

[Dr. Who]

I'm quite proud of the Buffalo fans and being apart of the community. It's the community that I'm proud of, even if the team is terrible and I'm not proud of them (you know, for the past 13 years).

You are right there is nothing depressing about that. It would be nice to be proud of the team, but I don't think I'll ever be too proud of a bunch of hyperathletic freaks who get paid millions of dollars to play a game, and would just as soon play for another team as they would ours.

It's about the community and I cherish being a part of it. That's what I'd miss the most about the Bills leaving and it would leave a huge hole in most of our lives.

Those who would not be emotionally affected by the Bills leaving Buffalo are not really Buffalo Bills fans. Some of them like to post here for some reason. I can only imagine it is some perverse quirk in their personalities.

[Dr. Who]

Some people need to be hit over the head with a sledgehammer to get the point.

DraftBoy is such a person.

His insists the love & appreciation of art makes someone a better person while football does not.

I had to show the most extreme example to prove he was wrong.

My Father landed in the 2nd wave on Omaha beach 70 years ago today.

He was later wounded in the Battle of the Bulge. He won the Purple Cross & the Bronze Star in that Battle.

I don't think there is any problem referencing Hitler as long as it is not done in a positive light.

RIP Dad, thinking of you today as always.

I do not understand the consistent animosity and contempt that many seem to throw your way. I don't see what is wrong about being optimistic about the team, though some here equate that with "rainbows, lollipops, and unicorns." That's mean and begs the question. A rational case for the current team playing well can be made.

I'm actually a high brow when it comes to culture. I know a lot about art, literature, philosophy, theology. I don't think one can equate such with one's enjoyment of football. Nonetheless, as far as the Hitler reference goes, George Steiner, a scholarly cultural critic, wrote about the disconnect between cultural erudition and the inhumane actions of the Nazi regime in his work, In Bluebeard's Castle. Google it or check it out on Amazon. It's not a ridiculous point, though perhaps one ought to be more reticent to make those kind of points, especially on this board.

[better days]

I do not understand the consistent animosity and contempt that many seem to throw your way. I don't see what is wrong about being optimistic about the team, though some here equate that with "rainbows, lollipops, and unicorns." That's mean and begs the question. A rational case for the current team playing well can be made.

I'm actually a high brow when it comes to culture. I know a lot about art, literature, philosophy, theology. I don't think one can equate such with one's enjoyment of football. Nonetheless, as far as the Hitler reference goes, George Steiner, a scholarly cultural critic, wrote about the disconnect between cultural erudition and the inhumane actions of the Nazi regime in his work, In Bluebeard's Castle. Google it or check it out on Amazon. It's not a ridiculous point, though perhaps one ought to be more reticent to make those kind of points, especially on this board.

I appreciate the kind words. I am a self avowed optimist & will continue to live my life as one despite the ridicule the pessimists throw at me.

I am not a high brow, but took art appreciation & a few other art course in College as well a few philosophy & theology courses.

I do have a love and appreciation of art & used to go to the Albright-Knox gallery often when I lived in Buffalo, but the thought that the love & appreciation of art makes one a better person is ridiculous IMO.

There are many people in prison that spend their time working on art. Art did not make these people better persons.

In regards to Hitler, should we forget he ever existed? I don't think so myself, in fact I think people should be reminded of him from time to time and see no problem in referencing him as long as it is not done in a positive light.

[coastal]

16912

[better days]

16912

Coastal's selfie.