USA Today - Buffalo Bills project to a 3-13 record

[Skooby]

On paper we look more like a 13-3 team than a 3-13:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2014/06/02/2014-season-record-projections-playoffs-seahawks-colts/9767615/

[TacklingDummy]

Wow, even I have them at a stellar 5-11.

- - - Updated - - -

Cleveland will be happy.

[Fletch]

On paper we look more like a 13-3 team than a 3-13:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2014/06/02/2014-season-record-projections-playoffs-seahawks-colts/9767615/

Say what? According to who?

Everyone thinks that a rookie WR is going to come in here and do what he did in college last season, it ain't happenin'. Even Watkins were to do that it wouldn't make us a winning team.

The other thing seems to be that getting better WRs will automatically make Manuel better. That's the same logic that this team used when it rationalized that if they paid Fitzpatrick like a top QB that he'd play like one.

This team is not much different than last seasons. We've lost Stevie, and if Watkins makes up for Stevie's numbers this year as a rookie I'll be stunned. At least Manuel had a little chemistry with Stevie.

Manuel broke 3,000 yards once in college and his top WR had only 741 yards and 6 TDs. Greene is similar to Watkins in some ways, but he is more the downfield type and not gimmicky like Watkins was. So if Manuel couldn't do more with that, how is he going to benefit with Watkins in a similar role, particularly when Watkins isn't supposed to be as good a route runner as Greene is?

3-13 may be a bit light, but I don't see us being better than the 6-10 we were last season. People need to quit listening to Whaley and the rest of the team's FO people, they don't know what they're talking about. If you ask me, Whaley just Manuel'd and Watkins'd himself out of a job in Buffalo.

I'll say 5-11. I don't see Manuel hitting 3,000 yards this season and if he does it'll be just barely. I also don't see him throwing more than 16-18 TDs, hardly electrifying, and if that's all he does, there's no chance on earth that this team ends up better than 6-10.

Sure, I could be wrong, Manuel may do better than Brady last season and throw for 4,500 yards, 28 TDs, having 500 rushing yards, and Watkins could light up the NFL and do what Boldin did as a rookie, hit almost 1,400 yards. The odds of that happening are slim to nil though.

[jamze132]

I have us at 5-11 one day, 6-10, another.

Those guys are dicks!

[trapezeus]

i'm currently in the 5-11 crowd until we see preseason games to see where they are. 3-13 is harsh. but given the lack of discipline the players have, the mushy marrone quote, and the fact we gave up a first rounder, it seems like all signs are pointing to a tough season.

[better days]

i'm currently in the 5-11 crowd until we see preseason games to see where they are. 3-13 is harsh. but given the lack of discipline the players have, the mushy marrone quote, and the fact we gave up a first rounder, it seems like all signs are pointing to a tough season.

How does giving up a number one pick NEXT year equate to a tough season this year?

[Fletch]

i'm currently in the 5-11 crowd until we see preseason games to see where they are. 3-13 is harsh. but given the lack of discipline the players have, the mushy marrone quote, and the fact we gave up a first rounder, it seems like all signs are pointing to a tough season.

If Watkins doesn't easily replace what Stevie did, then I can easily see 3-13. I agree on the 5-11, but if I had to make a second guess it'd be 4-12, not 6-10 again. Despite everyone thinking that this team has improved, it hasn't. The whole enchilada is going to hing on Manuel.

[pmoon6]

Bills Suck.....

[THATHURMANATOR]

I can't predict a good team until I see it on Sunday but I feel like the talent level on the team is much higher than 3-13.

[Historian]

7-9

[Albany,n.y.]

8-12 wins depending on Manuel. Maybe even a Championship if it's 12.
Have any of you sub .500 swamis even looked at the schedule? We play the AFC's worst teams and the NFC's worst division.

[better days]

If Watkins doesn't easily replace what Stevie did, then I can easily see 3-13. I agree on the 5-11, but if I had to make a second guess it'd be 4-12, not 6-10 again. Despite everyone thinking that this team has improved, it hasn't. The whole enchilada is going to hing on Manuel.

I think Stevie's 597 yards & 3 TD's will be easily replaced by Mike Williams.

I expect much better numbers than the numbers Stevie put up last year from Sammy Watkins.

[Skooby]

If Watkins doesn't easily replace what Stevie did, then I can easily see 3-13. I agree on the 5-11, but if I had to make a second guess it'd be 4-12, not 6-10 again. Despite everyone thinking that this team has improved, it hasn't. The whole enchilada is going to hing on Manuel.

What did Stevie do last year ??

[Skooby]

8-12 wins depending on Manuel. Maybe even a Championship if it's 12.
Have any of you sub .500 swamis even looked at the schedule? We play the AFC's worst teams and the NFC's worst division.

No they didn't look, they just want to say 4 wins & 5 wins to lower their expectations. This is actually the first year that we might break out in a while.

[swiper]

5-11 to 7-9.

The AFC East is going to boil down to how good Tannehill, Geno Smith and Manuel play.

[better days]

5-11 to 7-9.

The AFC East is going to boil down to how good Tannehill, Geno Smith and Manuel play.

Or if Brady gets injured.

[blackonyx89]

USA Today is W.R.O.N.G. WRONG!!! They will go at least 8-8 or 9-7 depending on EJ staying healthy as well as the majority of the roster. They made too many positive moves to go 3-13!

[better days]

USA Today is W.R.O.N.G. WRONG!!! They will go at least 8-8 or 9-7 depending on EJ staying healthy as well as the majority of the roster. They made too many positive moves to go 3-13!

I still think if EJ & the rest of the team stay healthy, the Bills go from 6-10 to 10-6.

[Mike13]

5-11 to 7-9.

The AFC East is going to boil down to how good Tannehill, Geno Smith and Manuel play.

And if this is the year father time kicks Brady in the balls, we saw signs of that last year.

[GingerP]

That seems harsh, but I am concerned with DL depth. You have the possibility of Dareus being suspended to start the year, and both Branch and Lawson are skipping OTA's. The DL is the strength of the defense, so the defense could take a step back. If Mario or Kyle Williams get injured, they could be hurting up front. If that happens, I could see being worse than expected.

That is the only way I could see a record that bad.

[better days]

That seems harsh, but I am concerned with DL depth. You have the possibility of Dareus being suspended to start the year, and both Branch and Lawson are skipping OTA's. The DL is the strength of the defense, so the defense could take a step back. If Mario or Kyle Williams get injured, they could be hurting up front. If that happens, I could see being worse than expected.

That is the only way I could see a record that bad.

Dareus could be suspended, but I doubt that happens this year.

Marshawn Lynch was arrested for a DUI, a felony, last July.

Not his first offense. He still has not been punished yet because the case has not been resolved yet.

I am not concerned with any player missing OTA's. That just gives the Rookies & players on the bubble a better chance to show what they have.

[THATHURMANATOR]

If Watkins doesn't easily replace what Stevie did, then I can easily see 3-13. I agree on the 5-11, but if I had to make a second guess it'd be 4-12, not 6-10 again. Despite everyone thinking that this team has improved, it hasn't. The whole enchilada is going to hing on Manuel.

Stevie was an absolute NON FACTOR last year.

What are you talking about?

Robert Woods could easily replace it, not to mention Mike Williams or Watkins. Williams is just as good IMO. Watkins should be twice the player based on his talent level.

[THATHURMANATOR]

This town and fan based is just so beaten down.

Predicting 5-11 or 4-12 with this talent level???? WHAT???

I can't get into the Realist VS Optimist debate again for the billionth time but that is terrible.

[better days]

This town and fan based is just so beaten down.

Predicting 5-11 or 4-12 with this talent level???? WHAT???

I can't get into the Realist VS Optimist debate again for the billionth time but that is terrible.

Exactly. People say the Bills can't sell out games, well how can anyone expect them to with the pessimism many Bills fans have?

Start winning some games & the pessimism will subside & games will sell out.

[SpikedLemonade]

USA TODAY Sports' Nate Davis is willing to offer one outcome after picking all 256 regular-season games and 11 playoff contests (he predicted the Seahawks would beat the Broncos in Super Bowl XLVIII, eight months before the game kicked off, after doing this exercise in 2013)

Well, the guy does have some credibility.

I will stick with 8-8 and that is with EJ looking decent.

[trapezeus]

How does giving up a number one pick NEXT year equate to a tough season this year?

Classic buffalo luck. That's how. The worst case scenario is that we end up dead last and that it's obvious that EJ manuel will never be a starting QB that will take you to the playoffs. we give up the #1 pick, miss on the andrew luck, peyton manning type qb and watch cleveland become the best team ever. Meanwhile, russ doesn't fire anyone for their gamble and keeps his job. they tell us that they are working on it, but that the new owner is scared that people won't show up and actually has been fielding offers for a 2020 sale.

And what i've learned in my 30+ years as a bills fan is that the bills find a way to exceed the expected worst case scenario and leave you utterly empty inside as a sports fan.

Is that a fair enough answer?


I also think the bills spent 3 years going 7-9, just wrapped up 3 yrs of 6-10 and now are ready to provide a thrilling 3 year run of 5-11. All the time we'll hear that russ brandon is diligently looking to turn the ship around, needs a couple years as they rebuild and hear half this board tell us everything is different with the exception that Russ and the executive crew will have found a way to stay firmly planted at 1BD.

[Skooby]

Classic buffalo luck. That's how. The worst case scenario is that we end up dead last and that it's obvious that EJ manuel will never be a starting QB that will take you to the playoffs. we give up the #1 pick, miss on the andrew luck, peyton manning type qb and watch cleveland become the best team ever. Meanwhile, russ doesn't fire anyone for their gamble and keeps his job. they tell us that they are working on it, but that the new owner is scared that people won't show up and actually has been fielding offers for a 2020 sale.

And what i've learned in my 30+ years as a bills fan is that the bills find a way to exceed the expected worst case scenario and leave you utterly empty inside as a sports fan.

Is that a fair enough answer?


I also think the bills spent 3 years going 7-9, just wrapped up 3 yrs of 6-10 and now are ready to provide a thrilling 3 year run of 5-11. All the time we'll hear that russ brandon is diligently looking to turn the ship around, needs a couple years as they rebuild and hear half this board tell us everything is different with the exception that Russ and the executive crew will have found a way to stay firmly planted at 1BD.

Paranoid much ?

[trapezeus]

USA TODAY Sports' Nate Davis is willing to offer one outcome after picking all 256 regular-season games and 11 playoff contests (he predicted the Seahawks would beat the Broncos in Super Bowl XLVIII, eight months before the game kicked off, after doing this exercise in 2013)

Well, the guy does have some credibility.

I will stick with 8-8 and that is with EJ looking decent.

that is interesting. how long has nate davis been doing this? i'm not contesting that if he got last year's superbowl winner against the broncos 8 months in advance. i am just curious how long his model has been good at doing this.

- - - Updated - - -


Paranoid much ?

are you saying that the last 14 years and possibly even 30, when you wanted your team to deliver the most, they've let you down.

[pmoon6]

We make the playoffs as a Wild Card.

[Mr. Pink]

This is a sub .500 football team who if they had even an average QB would be a contender.

They are not a 3 win football team though.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Exactly. People say the Bills can't sell out games, well how can anyone expect them to with the pessimism many Bills fans have?

Start winning some games & the pessimism will subside & games will sell out.

Agreed

[THATHURMANATOR]

USA TODAY Sports' Nate Davis is willing to offer one outcome after picking all 256 regular-season games and 11 playoff contests (he predicted the Seahawks would beat the Broncos in Super Bowl XLVIII, eight months before the game kicked off, after doing this exercise in 2013)

Well, the guy does have some credibility.

I will stick with 8-8 and that is with EJ looking decent.

I can't even hate on the guy. We have sucked for 15 years.

I can't disagree with the fans that feel that way either. It just sucks.

PLEASE MAKE THE PLAYOFFS BILLS

[OpIv37]

This town and fan based is just so beaten down.

Predicting 5-11 or 4-12 with this talent level???? WHAT???

I can't get into the Realist VS Optimist debate again for the billionth time but that is terrible.
What "talent level"? On D we added Spikes but lost Byrd, plus have a new system. On O we added depth and rookies.

The only increase in talent level is the presumed increase between Watkins and Stevie.

[JoeMama]

On paper we look more like a 13-3 team than a 3-13:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2014/06/02/2014-season-record-projections-playoffs-seahawks-colts/9767615/

Oh, come on, USA Today...

If we can snake 6 wins with last year's roster, we can definitely snake 6 wins with this year's roster.

3-13 is setting the bar way too low.

[DesertFox24]

Who cares what these guys say in June.

Lets wait till after training camp and after the third pre season game.

[Bill Cody]

What "talent level"? On D we added Spikes but lost Byrd, plus have a new system. On O we added depth and rookies.

The only increase in talent level is the presumed increase between Watkins and Stevie.

Rookies can have talent. I sure hope the talent on the OL is improved. That alone will make a difference.

[OpIv37]

Rookies can have talent. I sure hope the talent on the OL is improved. That alone will make a difference.

Our opponents added rookies too....

[jimmifli]

What "talent level"? On D we added Spikes but lost Byrd, plus have a new system. On O we added depth and rookies.
We also added Keith Rivers, a player that screams average, middle of the road and mediocre. Which is a good sized upgrade for us.

I think Corey Graham will replace Byrd and I don't think the drop off will be that big. Our secondary has 6 guys that can cover man, our linebackers have 3 NFL quality starters and some good depth with specialists. Our Dline will continue to be strong, with the one remaining hole (same one we had last season).

The defense is good. Our offense still looks like a cluster****. Hopefully the OL hit the lottery on all additions or it's going to be another year of disappointment.

[THATHURMANATOR]

What "talent level"? On D we added Spikes but lost Byrd, plus have a new system. On O we added depth and rookies.

The only increase in talent level is the presumed increase between Watkins and Stevie.

And the hopeful progression of Manuel
Woods/Goodwin an offseason to progress
Same for Kiko
Addition of Mike Williams
Shoring up RT with Kounjo
hopefully upgrading at LG with Williams (couldn't be worse)

[TacklingDummy]

Predicting 5-11 or 4-12 with this talent level???? WHAT???

I can't get into the Realist VS Optimist debate again for the billionth time but that is terrible.

And you would have lost for 14 years in a row.

Not sure why you would think next year would be any different.

It really does just depend on EJ not being the bust that he is.

[ParanoidAndroid]

I will be curious to see what happens with the O-line. If they improve markedly enough in the run game over last year, there is no way we lose 13 games and I have no reservations about predicting an over .500 record with a couple of meaningful mid/late December games.

[OpIv37]

And the hopeful progression of Manuel
Woods/Goodwin an offseason to progress
Same for Kiko
Addition of Mike Williams
Shoring up RT with Kounjo
hopefully upgrading at LG with Williams (couldn't be worse)
Every year I hear about this first to second year improvement, and every year it fails to materialize.

And I'm not saying that there has never been an individual player who has improved. But we have never seen enough improvement from guys already on the roster to make the team as a whole better from one year to the next.

[Scumbag College]

I think that the biggest surprise in this article and this thread is that the USA Today still exists.

[Mace]

This is a sub .500 football team who if they had even an average QB would be a contender.

They are not a 3 win football team though.

If they had a chance to be a 3 win team, Pink would be on it. They aren't. Bad analysis.

Heh, Pink, you come out Mr. Optimist against 3 wins. It's ok, Mr. Sunshine Rosydays.

[Turf]

If we had a smarter OC last year, we're over .500. We're not that bad. In fact we're better on paper this year. The jury is out, once again, on the coaching staff.

[Mace]

If we had a smarter OC last year, we're over .500. We're not that bad. In fact we're better on paper this year. The jury is out, once again, on the coaching staff.

Well if they had a QB coach, like coaching 101 but hey.....so we got a bad one. He coached up Thad Lewis, regarded as needing a qb coach. We're good.

3 year countdown to next round is near halfway.

[Skooby]

I'm not a total believer that we have a higher level of success but I'll tell you ongoing that if EJ actually got more experience last year that this year might have meant that much more success. The biggest difference is we knocked. Stevie Johnson out and don't have a pressure to feed this guy a ball anymore, that's huge being him being a needy child.

[Mr. Pink]

If they had a chance to be a 3 win team, Pink would be on it. They aren't. Bad analysis.

Heh, Pink, you come out Mr. Optimist against 3 wins. It's ok, Mr. Sunshine Rosydays.

My bad, I'll go with 10-6 and then when they finish 5-11 or 6-10 I can feel better about myself because I was optimistic to start the year. It's a decent team with a garbage QB, you know what happens to those teams? They stop playing meaningful football in November.

[TacklingDummy]

3-13 would be just the Bills luck.
They finally tank a season to get a Top 2 pick and they don't have a 1st round pick to grab one of the top 2 QBs on the board. Mariota and Winston.

[Fletch]

Stevie was an absolute NON FACTOR last year.

What are you talking about?

Robert Woods could easily replace it, not to mention Mike Williams or Watkins. Williams is just as good IMO. Watkins should be twice the player based on his talent level.

The latter part of your post is pure opinion.

As to the former part, and why do you think that it may have been for this incredible drop in Stevie's production from prior years? Remember, he's the first Bills' receiver in history to post back-to-back-to-back 1,000 yard seasons.

Figure that out and you'll understand more about why people are predicting only 3-13 to 6-10 again. Then while you're at it, reconcile that with why you think that Watkins may not be a "non-factor" as well.

[Fletch]

What did Stevie do last year ??

What did Woods, Goodwin, or Williams do last year?

Hint: Stevie did more.

[Fletch]

This town and fan based is just so beaten down.

Predicting 5-11 or 4-12 with this talent level???? WHAT???

I can't get into the Realist VS Optimist debate again for the billionth time but that is terrible.

What talent level?

On the other side you have people massively inflating the worth of players. Everyone's talking about all the changes, which are what, a bunch of backups and maybe one average starter in Corey Williams, and a swap of a top FS with a MLB that can't play the pass, the most critical flaw in the game today given that it's a passing league.

And offensively we cut a franchise record setting WR in favor of a rookie that hasn't proven a thing yet in the NFL and got most of his yardage off of a gimmick system in college, a second year WR, and a guy with character issues that is a low-end starter at best, but oh, he's from Syracuse. Throw in the fact that Fred Jackson's getting worse, not better. But wait, we traded for a RB that hasn't done anything in the NFL yet and hardly ran the ball in college.

But somehow, all of these things are irrelevant. After all, it's only the NFL.

I don't see how this team has gotten better except for people talking as if all of our draft picks are going to be contributing. We rarely get more than two draft picks to contribute and rarely ever get anything from our 3rd rounders and later. Remember all the hype on Jasper because of his incomparable "workout video?"

All of the hopes are pinned on Manuel shedding the same issues that have plagued him throughout college and in his rookie season, making massive strides forward, and then having receivers, including Watkins, Woods, Williams, and Goodwin, who tallied a grand total of 79 catches for 1,086 yards and 8 TDs last season in the NFL, with one of them being a rookie, two being 2nd year players, and the fourth being nothing special and a character incident away from a suspension, AND has some injury history.

What kind of a fool claims that this is an improved team and that it's going to make the playoffs.

Name for me the last team, in all of NFL history, that posted a winning season with a 2nd year QB that struggled immensely as a rookie both performance wise and injury wise, a rookie WR and second year WR that started.

[Historian]

No way.

This is easily an 8-8 team.

[Fletch]

Classic buffalo luck. That's how. The worst case scenario is that we end up dead last and that it's obvious that EJ manuel will never be a starting QB that will take you to the playoffs. we give up the #1 pick, miss on the andrew luck, peyton manning type qb and watch cleveland become the best team ever. Meanwhile, russ doesn't fire anyone for their gamble and keeps his job. they tell us that they are working on it, but that the new owner is scared that people won't show up and actually has been fielding offers for a 2020 sale.

And what i've learned in my 30+ years as a bills fan is that the bills find a way to exceed the expected worst case scenario and leave you utterly empty inside as a sports fan.

Is that a fair enough answer?


I also think the bills spent 3 years going 7-9, just wrapped up 3 yrs of 6-10 and now are ready to provide a thrilling 3 year run of 5-11. All the time we'll hear that russ brandon is diligently looking to turn the ship around, needs a couple years as they rebuild and hear half this board tell us everything is different with the exception that Russ and the executive crew will have found a way to stay firmly planted at 1BD.

It's very fair. Fans here seem to not understand that rookie WRs rarely (never say never but a Boldin away from never) make the kind of impact that they're expecting here. But of course it's all going to be different because it's Buffalo and we're Bills fans, right. Sure.

Even Boldin's team didn't win for 6 seasons. But why let facts stand in the way of a good argument.

Then of course there's the fact that this team is run by fools as you imply.

- - - Updated - - -


Paranoid much ?

Foolish much?

I'm just curious what the excuses are going to be and who's going to be blamed at the end of the season and how psycho and bi-polar you and others get on this. Unfortunately, that's about the most amusing part of being a Bills fan, is coming here to watch the 180-degree reactions of everyone insisting that posters like me, who operate on historical facts and other data not limited to everything that blows smoke up Bills fans tail pipes.

[trapezeus]

What "talent level"? On D we added Spikes but lost Byrd, plus have a new system. On O we added depth and rookies.

The only increase in talent level is the presumed increase between Watkins and Stevie.

This is the hardest part to believe the defense is going to grow on last year. we are seeing people move into other positions, we've heard talk about how certain players don't fit the schwarz system, etc. There is a lot to be worried about that the defense won't have a seamless transition to just improving with key additional players.

[Fletch]

What "talent level"? On D we added Spikes but lost Byrd, plus have a new system. On O we added depth and rookies.

The only increase in talent level is the presumed increase between Watkins and Stevie.

You got that right. Apparently all of those thinking that we improve on last year do not understand the history of performance of rookie WRs.

We're all supposed to assume that Watkins is going to shatter the paradigm, ... with Manuel throwing to him. Yeah, ... OK.

Here's the funny thing, no one that argues this and is so ridiculously off is going to come back and simply say that they were wrong and didn't know what they were talking about. It'll be the same wash-rinse-repeat exercise next year, except our 2nd round pick, the 34th overall, will be touted as a guy that "should have gone in the first 15 picks, so really we got a 1st-rounder anyway." Everyone will be talking about what a great trade this year's draft was.

I would love nothing more than to agree with all of these people that apparently are stoned when they post, but there is so much youth, questionability in terms of injury status (Williams, Manuel), lack of chemistry between Manuel and our "great white hope" Watkins and our only veteran WR Williams, and frankly, nothing last year from Woods or Goodwin to suggest that either will ever be even what Stevie was prior to having Manuel throw to him.

And what does it say when Stevie puts up 1,000 yards with Fitzpatrick throwing the ball, when Fitzpatrick, who also sucks, averaged 3,400 yards and 24 TDs, but as a rookie Manuel couldn't even log 2,000 yards, for whatever reasons, multiple injuries aside and bolstering the point, or even half of those TDs.

All of a sudden with rookie and 2nd year WRs he's going to double that? Even if he does, what was our record with Fitzpatrick doing that?

I think that it will be astonishing if both Manuel and Williams can simply stay healthy for 16 games each. Even then, I'll predict 15 passing TDs for Manuel. Who would predict much more. But OK, let's say he has 20, which would be remarkable given his last season's performance.

People talk as if Watkins will have 8, Goodwin 5, Williams 7, and Woods 6, for 26 total, not including any other WRs and RBs.

[gr8slayer]

It all depends on one guy. If he figures it out, this is a playoff-caliber team, if he doesn't... PAIN.

[Fletch]

We also added Keith Rivers, a player that screams average, middle of the road and mediocre. Which is a good sized upgrade for us.

I think Corey Graham will replace Byrd and I don't think the drop off will be that big. Our secondary has 6 guys that can cover man, our linebackers have 3 NFL quality starters and some good depth with specialists. Our Dline will continue to be strong, with the one remaining hole (same one we had last season).

LOL on Rivers. I'll give you that, but still, I'm not even sold that Rivers starts. Either way, Spikes will still be a major liability on pass plays. That cannot possibly be understated. Kiko's the only good well-rounded LB we have. He may be great, he may even turn into one of the league's top-5 or 10 LBs this season, but one is hardly enough.

Can't disagree with you on Graham more. I've watched him often in Baltimore, the word that comes to mind immediately is inconsistent, severely inconsistent. I think he'll play CB, not S, but either way, he's nowhwere near the ballhawk that Byrd was, he may be better in run support, which is why the team may have liked him. You'll observe that this season. He's a low-end starting type though.

[better days]

Well if they had a QB coach, like coaching 101 but hey.....so we got a bad one. He coached up Thad Lewis, regarded as needing a qb coach. We're good.

3 year countdown to next round is near halfway.

Eric Wood said Thad has one of the strongest arms he has ever seen.

On the other hand Eric has seen Fitz at QB. Doesn't take much to have a stronger arm than that.

[Fletch]

No way.

This is easily an 8-8 team.

Easily? I think that if they do manage to do any better than the 6-10 that they were last season that it'll take a bunch of luck and good fortunes.

You're smarter than that.

Is that just the fan in you talking, or do you truly believe that this team is an 8-8 team, even in this division?

[Fletch]

This is the hardest part to believe the defense is going to grow on last year. we are seeing people move into other positions, we've heard talk about how certain players don't fit the schwarz system, etc. There is a lot to be worried about that the defense won't have a seamless transition to just improving with key additional players.

I think that it's a fair assumption that there won't be an overemphasis on logging sacks. If so, then what, 45 sacks? Or back to our 2012 tally, 36?

What about passing TDs allowed? Will we be better than the 20th ranking we had last season with 28 passing TDs allowed, only 1 passing TD off the mark of a 6-team logjam for 21st-27th?

Will the run D be better? I certainly hope so with Spikes in there. If not, then signing him was a bad move.

Schwartz underachieved on D with the talent he had in Detroit. Is this a good sign and cause for optimism?

Just asking the questions.

[Fletch]

I've bookmarked this thread. We'll come back in the fall and see how people defend their insistence that this is an 8-8 or better team.

[Skooby]

I've bookmarked this thread. We'll come back in the fall and see how people defend their insistence that this is an 8-8 or better team.

You do that, I'll bump it for you & you'll be like damn this team is good.

[better days]

LOL on Rivers. I'll give you that, but still, I'm not even sold that Rivers starts. Either way, Spikes will still be a major liability on pass plays. That cannot possibly be understated. Kiko's the only good well-rounded LB we have. He may be great, he may even turn into one of the league's top-5 or 10 LBs this season, but one is hardly enough.

Can't disagree with you on Graham more. I've watched him often in Baltimore, the word that comes to mind immediately is inconsistent, severely inconsistent. I think he'll play CB, not S, but either way, he's nowhwere near the ballhawk that Byrd was, he may be better in run support, which is why the team may have liked him. You'll observe that this season. He's a low-end starting type though.

Well, you have seen a lot of Rivers, just how much have you seen of Spikes?

I know you haven't seen a lot of him on passing downs in New England because Belichick likes to move his defensive players around & he substitutes a lot.

At Florida, Spikes was much more involved in the passing game than he was for the Pats*.

He is slow, but he is an instinctive player. Kind of like a big Jim Leonhard.

Spikes can't cover a WR, but as a MLB he won't be asked to do that.

I think he will be fine covering most Te's & RB's coming into the flat.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Every year I hear about this first to second year improvement, and every year it fails to materialize.

And I'm not saying that there has never been an individual player who has improved. But we have never seen enough improvement from guys already on the roster to make the team as a whole better from one year to the next.

All we need is EJ to make a jump and we are immediately a good team.

You are right we haven't seen it before, well we kinda did with Edwards before his head was taken off.

Will it happen I am at 50/50 on that.

Even if it doesn't the team certainly didn't get worse to the extent we would win 3 less games than last year.

[Historian]

Easily? I think that if they do manage to do any better than the 6-10 that they were last season that it'll take a bunch of luck and good fortunes.

You're smarter than that.

Is that just the fan in you talking, or do you truly believe that this team is an 8-8 team, even in this division?

I do Fletch, and I put my $ where my mouth is...I bought seasons.

[Fletch]

I do Fletch, and I put my $ where my mouth is...I bought seasons.

That's fine, I'm not putting this in terms of buying tix or anything, just saying. I'm still waiting for Thurmanator to show me the precedent in the league whereby a 2nd year QB that struggled in his rookie season, immensely, and his injury issues aside, coupled with two starting receivers that will be a rookie and 2nd year guy, whose 4th WR was also a rookie, did anything with his team.

As I've said, the only reason that anyone's arguing with anyone that the team will be better than last season's 6-10, and is better on paper, is almost exclusively because of Watkins. But a rookie WR has never made that kind of impact. The best that a rookie WR ever did, by a longshot, was Boldin, who put up 101 catches, 1,377 yards, and 8 TDs in his rookie season. To my recollection no other WR has ever even come close with only a couple rookie WRs, including the historical best in the game, having even topped 1,000 yards receiving in their rookie seasons.

The Cards were 5-11 the season prior to Boldin's rookie season and regressed to 4-12. Then 6-10, then 5-11 for two years before going 8-8 in Boldin's 5th season there.

In 2005 they had Warner throwing the ball for most of the season and two of the best WRs to ever play the game in Boldin and Fitzgerald. Yet they were only 5-11 in a division that was even weaker than ours that season.

You guys can talk all you want, all I'm saying is that if the team is improved, it's only on paper and in the minds of the like that we have in the front office. There isn't any real basis for any optimism. It just isn't there.

Saying that Watkins is going to do this or that is silly when history suggests that it likely isn't so.

Saying that Bryce Brown is going to fill in for FJ or be a 3-down RB has absolutely no basis. He's never done that before, either in Philly or in college, in fact, his college rushing production was highly unimpressive, and it hasn't gotten more impressive in the NFL.

Talk is cheap.

Meanwhile, I look at a team like the Jets, who were 2 games better than us last year, have drafted notably better under Ryan generally speaking, and had a bangup draft last year on top of numerous picks this year, and see that they actually did improve, so how does that push us forward? If anything I see us dropping two to them this season.

A rookie WR is not the answer as Whaley and Marrone are telling us. The simple fact that they don't know that only tells us that both are in way over their heads, the last thing that it does is suggest competence.

Mike Williams and Bryce Brown also aren't the answers.

[better days]

That's fine, I'm not putting this in terms of buying tix or anything, just saying. I'm still waiting for Thurmanator to show me the precedent in the league whereby a 2nd year QB that struggled in his rookie season, immensely, and his injury issues aside, coupled with two starting receivers that will be a rookie and 2nd year guy, whose 4th WR was also a rookie, did anything with his team.

As I've said, the only reason that anyone's arguing with anyone that the team will be better than last season's 6-10, and is better on paper, is almost exclusively because of Watkins. But a rookie WR has never made that kind of impact. The best that a rookie WR ever did, by a longshot, was Boldin, who put up 101 catches, 1,377 yards, and 8 TDs in his rookie season. To my recollection no other WR has ever even come close with only a couple rookie WRs, including the historical best in the game, having even topped 1,000 yards receiving in their rookie seasons.

The Cards were 5-11 the season prior to Boldin's rookie season and regressed to 4-12. Then 6-10, then 5-11 for two years before going 8-8 in Boldin's 5th season there.

In 2005 they had Warner throwing the ball for most of the season and two of the best WRs to ever play the game in Boldin and Fitzgerald. Yet they were only 5-11 in a division that was even weaker than ours that season.

You guys can talk all you want, all I'm saying is that if the team is improved, it's only on paper and in the minds of the like that we have in the front office. There isn't any real basis for any optimism. It just isn't there.

Saying that Watkins is going to do this or that is silly when history suggests that it likely isn't so.

Saying that Bryce Brown is going to fill in for FJ or be a 3-down RB has absolutely no basis. He's never done that before, either in Philly or in college, in fact, his college rushing production was highly unimpressive, and it hasn't gotten more impressive in the NFL.

Talk is cheap.

Meanwhile, I look at a team like the Jets, who were 2 games better than us last year, have drafted notably better under Ryan generally speaking, and had a bangup draft last year on top of numerous picks this year, and see that they actually did improve, so how does that push us forward? If anything I see us dropping two to them this season.

A rookie WR is not the answer as Whaley and Marrone are telling us. The simple fact that they don't know that only tells us that both are in way over their heads, the last thing that it does is suggest competence.

Mike Williams and Bryce Brown also aren't the answers.

The Dallas Cowboys & Troy Aikman.

His rookie year, Aikman was 0-11 as a starter.

His 2nd year, the Cowboys made the playoffs.

[Ginger Vitis]

The Dallas Cowboys & Troy Aikman.

His rookie year, Aikman was 0-11 as a starter.

His 2nd year, the Cowboys made the playoffs.


The Cowboys went 7-9 Aikmans 2nd season.. Made the playoffs his 3rd season

[Fletch]

BTW Historian, here are the stats from the rookie QBs last season:


<tbody>
Rk
Player
Team
Pos
Comp (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&d-447263-s=PASSING_COMPLETIONS&tabSeq=1&season=2013&experience=0&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&qualified=false)
Att (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&d-447263-s=PASSING_ATTEMPTS&tabSeq=1&season=2013&experience=0&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&qualified=false)
Pct (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&d-447263-s=PASSING_COMPLETION_PERCENTAGE&tabSeq=1&season=2013&experience=0&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&qualified=false)
Att/G (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&d-447263-s=PASSING_ATTEMPTS_PER_GAME_AVG&tabSeq=1&season=2013&experience=0&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&qualified=false)
Yds (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&d-447263-s=PASSING_YARDS&tabSeq=1&season=2013&experience=0&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&qualified=false)
Avg (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&d-447263-s=PASSING_AVERAGE_YARDS&tabSeq=1&season=2013&experience=0&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&qualified=false)
Yds/G (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&d-447263-s=PASSING_YARDS_GAME_AVG&tabSeq=1&season=2013&experience=0&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&qualified=false)
TD (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=1&d-447263-p=1&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&d-447263-s=PASSING_TOUCHDOWNS&tabSeq=1&season=2013&experience=0&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&qualified=false)
Int (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&d-447263-s=PASSING_INTERCEPTIONS&tabSeq=1&season=2013&experience=0&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&qualified=false)
1st (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&d-447263-s=PASSING_FIRST_DOWNS&tabSeq=1&season=2013&experience=0&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&qualified=false)
1st% (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&d-447263-s=PASSING_FIRST_DOWN_PERCENTAGE&tabSeq=1&season=2013&experience=0&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&qualified=false)
Lng (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&d-447263-s=PASSING_LONG&tabSeq=1&season=2013&experience=0&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&qualified=false)
20+ (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&d-447263-s=PASSING_20PLUS_YARDS_EACH&tabSeq=1&season=2013&experience=0&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&qualified=false)
40+ (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&d-447263-s=PASSING_40PLUS_YARDS_EACH&tabSeq=1&season=2013&experience=0&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&qualified=false)
Sck (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&d-447263-s=PASSING_SACKED&tabSeq=1&season=2013&experience=0&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&qualified=false)
Rate (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&d-447263-s=PASSING_PASSER_RATING&tabSeq=1&season=2013&experience=0&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&qualified=false)


1
Mike Glennon (http://www.nfl.com/players/mikeglennon/profile?id=GLE711694)
TB (http://www.nfl.com/teams/tampabaybuccaneers/profile?team=TB)
QB
247
416
59.4
32.0
2,608
6.3
200.6
19
9
126
30.3
85T
28
7
40
83.9


2
Geno Smith (http://www.nfl.com/players/genosmith/profile?id=SMI269700)
NYJ (http://www.nfl.com/teams/newyorkjets/profile?team=NYJ)
QB
247
443
55.8
27.7
3,046
6.9
190.4
12
21
143
32.3
69T
43
6
43
66.5


3
EJ Manuel (http://www.nfl.com/players/ejmanuel/profile?id=MAN738705)
BUF (http://www.nfl.com/teams/buffalobills/profile?team=BUF)
QB
180
306
58.8
30.6
1,972
6.4
197.2
11
9
86
28.1
45
28
4
28
77.7


4
Matt McGloin (http://www.nfl.com/players/mattmcgloin/profile?id=MCG491502)
OAK (http://www.nfl.com/teams/oaklandraiders/profile?team=OAK)
QB
118
211
55.9
30.1
1,547
7.3
221.0
8
8
69
32.7
52
29
4
6
76.1


5
Jeff Tuel (http://www.nfl.com/players/jefftuel/profile?id=TUE385627)
BUF (http://www.nfl.com/teams/buffalobills/profile?team=BUF)
QB
26
59
44.1
29.5
309
5.2
154.5
1
3
15
25.4
59T
3
1
2
45.1


6
Matt Barkley (http://www.nfl.com/players/mattbarkley/profile?id=BAR192558)
PHI (http://www.nfl.com/teams/philadelphiaeagles/profile?team=PHI)
QB
30
49
61.2
16.3
300
6.1
100.0
0
4
17
34.7
26
3
0
3
44.6

</tbody>

Manuel played about equal to McGloin but McGloin threw only about a third as many passes and only played in about a third as many games. Glennon out played Manuel. So did McGloin on a per game basis.

Do you say the same things about the 4-12 Bucs or Raiders taking the same kind of leap that many here say we will? If not, why not? Did they not draft "impact players?" Both teams signed a lot more and better players than we did in free agency. Both of their drafts were good, in fact, Tampa drafted Mike Evans who IMO will have a better rookie year as well as career than Watkins will. He's more of the AJ Green, Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson type.

[Fletch]

The Cowboys went 7-9 Aikmans 2nd season.. Made the playoffs his 3rd season

And what happened from '89, Aikman's rookie year, to '90, that helped them do that?

Here's a clue, whatever it is, it is ranked #1 in NFL history.

Again, you're ignoring the question, the question was not which QB did it, the question is on which team did a WR do it. Don't listen to better days, he's a fool and offers nothing to any thread. I've got him on ignore.

So find for me the WR that led his team to what you guys are saying?

Again, it hasn't happened.

Nonetheless, I'll play ball. Aikman was a 1st overall draft pick, and while perhaps maybe not worth quite that, was still worth a 1st rounder, arguable nonetheless.

Are you saying that Manuel is as good as Aikman? Or are you comparing Manuel to Aikman?

Please say no.

[Fletch]

The bottom line is that it has never happened.

So in essence, if it happens this season, it will have been the first time in NFL history.

Seriously, who sees that happening in Buffalo as things now stand? I think we can categorically dismiss that out of hand.

[Skooby]

The bottom line is that it has never happened.

So in essence, if it happens this season, it will have been the first time in NFL history.

Seriously, who sees that happening in Buffalo as things now stand? I think we can categorically dismiss that out of hand.

We play some of the worst divisions, Miami alone has little chance against us so there's 2 probable wins & yeah we're better than last year talent wise.

[Fletch]

We play some of the worst divisions, Miami alone has little chance against us so there's 2 probable wins & yeah we're better than last year talent wise.

LOL

Great argument for improvement.

[Fletch]

I found one example:

Terry Glenn

He had Bledsoe throwing to him however. While Bledsoe was not great, he was better than Manuel will be this season. It was his 4th season.

[Skooby]

LOL

Great argument for improvement.

Well its a variable that quantifiable, this we aren't that good or we're great is all BS. Nobody knows how this team will perform but I can tell you we play some teams that we played / beat last year & some crappy looking teams. That should pad our win total without much help.

[Ginger Vitis]

And what happened from '89, Aikman's rookie year, to '90, that helped them do that?

Here's a clue, whatever it is, it is ranked #1 in NFL history.

Again, you're ignoring the question, the question was not which QB did it, the question is on which team did a WR do it. Don't listen to better days, he's a fool and offers nothing to any thread. I've got him on ignore.

So find for me the WR that led his team to what you guys are saying?

Again, it hasn't happened.

Nonetheless, I'll play ball. Aikman was a 1st overall draft pick, and while perhaps maybe not worth quite that, was still worth a 1st rounder, arguable nonetheless.

Are you saying that Manuel is as good as Aikman? Or are you comparing Manuel to Aikman?

Please say no.

Wow I Just stated facts regarding Aikman.. Never implied Manuel would lead the Bills to the playoffs this season or that he was as good as Aikman

[Historian]

I remember Manning going 3-13 his rookie year, then doing really well the next.

He indicated that "the game had slowed down" for him.

I feel this will happen to EJM.

My worry are his knees.

I just think, they fought hard in 14 of 16 games last year, are second year of a good solid program, loaded with young talent.

I don't know if Marrone is it, or not, but his enthusiasm, and respect the players have for him, kind of remind me of Mularkey's tenure here. (minus the gadget plays)

That was the last time we even sniffed the playoffs.

So I'm hopeful.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

As I've said, the only reason that anyone's arguing with anyone that the team will be better than last season's 6-10, and is better on paper, is almost exclusively because of Watkins. But a rookie WR has never made that kind of impact. The best that a rookie WR ever did, by a longshot, was Boldin, who put up 101 catches, 1,377 yards, and 8 TDs in his rookie season. To my recollection no other WR has ever even come close with only a couple rookie WRs, including the historical best in the game, having even topped 1,000 yards receiving in their rookie seasons.

Not hardly. Randy Moss put up 69 catches for 1313 yards and 17 TDs, and was the key piece of one of the best offenses in NFL history. Now obviously he didn't do it alone, and obviously Watkins has a lot to prove to even be mentioned in the same breath as Moss, but still.

[TacklingDummy]

It all depends on one guy. If he figures it out, this is a playoff-caliber team, if he doesn't... PAIN.

1 player who was 52 in the NFL in Rate when he wasn't missing time with knee injuries.

[trapezeus]

I think that it's a fair assumption that there won't be an overemphasis on logging sacks. If so, then what, 45 sacks? Or back to our 2012 tally, 36?

What about passing TDs allowed? Will we be better than the 20th ranking we had last season with 28 passing TDs allowed, only 1 passing TD off the mark of a 6-team logjam for 21st-27th?

Will the run D be better? I certainly hope so with Spikes in there. If not, then signing him was a bad move.

Schwartz underachieved on D with the talent he had in Detroit. Is this a good sign and cause for optimism?

Just asking the questions.

This is my biggest worry. the bills defense isn't an allstart team. the front 7 is good and perhaps a little better if pettine stayed. but these guys are going to be all in a new learning curve. some get it, some don't. some aren't fit for it, some were born for it. i don't know enough to say what i think will happen. but i think he isn't going to be as aggressive as pettine and that sit back and let the play come to you approach is going to toast these CB's and secondary. i think if they stay aggressive and keep at it, we can keep masking the weaker secondary. and i am fine with that.

schwarz also didn't have a dominant name LB in Detroit. or at least that i can think of off the top of my head. perhaps he is better with kiko who showed flashes of being a game changer.

I didn't do a statistical analysis on last year's defense, but i feel like having watched all the games, the defense played well in the first half. they kept the team in it. but the offense kept stalling and their time on the field kept extending. so i feel like the stats might need to be weighted for how much time they were on the field. i remember thinking they always kept us in it to the end and if we had an offense that could have helped out more, they would have done more than enough to justify a higher stat line.

[JoeMama]

We'll only drop to 3-13 if we suffer through a series of catastrophic injuries.

Our success (or failure) will hinge almost entirely on EJ Manuel's progress.

I think our ceiling is about 10-6 if EJ stays healthy and improves. If not, I see us being railroaded at 6-10 again.

3-13 is not a reasonable expectation. They should be better than that.

[stuckincincy]

No way.

This is easily an 8-8 team.

I think so.

There are so many variables - judgement calls, injuries to both opponents, the way the ball bounces, and so on. Who figured HOU would drop down the toilet last season?

I do have concerns about ST performance - field position means a lot.

[better days]

I think so.

There are so many variables - judgement calls, injuries to both opponents, the way the ball bounces, and so on. Who figured HOU would drop down the toilet last season?

I do have concerns about ST performance - field position means a lot.

I also have concerns about special teams. But I don't see why they would be worse than last year.

And Houston just shows how important a QB is. I did not expect them to be as bad as they were, but I did not expect them to be any good either.

Some Bills fans have no hope for EJ & I can understand them thinking the Bills will be terrible for that reason.

But if EJ proves his critics wrong, I think this team will surprise many people.

[GingerP]

Not hardly. Randy Moss put up 69 catches for 1313 yards and 17 TDs, and was the key piece of one of the best offenses in NFL history. Now obviously he didn't do it alone, and obviously Watkins has a lot to prove to even be mentioned in the same breath as Moss, but still.

So, we have Moss, Boldin and Glenn.

With a little research, here are some others:

Keenan Allen last year with San Diego. He had a big year and the team improved from also-ran to playoff team.

Bullet Bob Hayes had a big impact with the Cowboys as a rookie, though they were already pretty good.

Bill Groman of the Houston Oilers, who not only had a huge rookie year but helped his team to an AFL Championship.

Cris Collinsworth had a big impact on the the Bengals with a big rookie year, helping to turn them around from also-ran to a Super Bowl appearance.

John Jefferson with San Diego, who made the Pro Bowl his first 3 years in the NFL in helping the Chargers go from 7-7 before he got there to 9-7, 12-4 & 11-5.

[stuckincincy]

So, we have Moss, Boldin and Glenn.

With a little research, here are some others:

Keenan Allen last year with San Diego. He had a big year and the team improved from also-ran to playoff team.

Bullet Bob Hayes had a big impact with the Cowboys as a rookie, though they were already pretty good.

Bill Groman of the Houston Oilers, who not only had a huge rookie year but helped his team to an AFL Championship.

Cris Collinsworth had a big impact on the the Bengals with a big rookie year, helping to turn them around from also-ran to a Super Bowl appearance.

John Jefferson with San Diego, who made the Pro Bowl his first 3 years in the NFL in helping the Chargers go from 7-7 before he got there to 9-7, 12-4 & 11-5.

All but your Keenan Allen reference were quite a while back, when the game, the rules were different. The SD club hasn't had a losing W-L percentage since 2003. That's not the case for the BUF organization. Apples and oranges...

[DraftBoy]

If the OL gels Manuel won't have to be much better than he was last year honestly. A better OL will open up the running lanes for FJax, Spiller, and Brown that will force the D to load the box and give Manuel and his WR's more space. Anybody who watched Manuel at FSU knows that when he has space he can put the ball anywhere he wants.

The OL is far more important than any other unit on this team and that includes the QB.

[Skooby]

If the OL gels Manuel won't have to be much better than he was last year honestly. A better OL will open up the running lanes for FJax, Spiller, and Brown that will force the D to load the box and give Manuel and his WR's more space. Anybody who watched Manuel at FSU knows that when he has space he can put the ball anywhere he wants.

The OL is far more important than any other unit on this team and that includes the QB.

Pretty stupid statement. I'd say if a QB can't throw to save his life, the O-line is good for S•••.

[DraftBoy]

Pretty stupid statement. I'd say if a QB can't throw to save his life, the O-line is good for S•••.

Yes but Manuel can throw, his issue is with pressure and tight coverage. He doesn't have to be Peyton Manning for us to be better than 3-13. He could be Trent Dilfer and if the OL is worth a **** we'll be close to .500.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Pretty stupid statement. I'd say if a QB can't throw to save his life, the O-line is good for S•••.

What QB can't throw to save his life.

[Historian]

I think it's the opposite.

With a good O line, Jeff Hostetler can win a SB.....lol.

:couch:

[gr8slayer]

He had no business even being a starter last year, he was not ready, and that's on the Bills. If Kolb doesn't go down, he isn't forced into action. He'll be a lot better prepared going into year 2.
1 player who was 52 in the NFL in Rate when he wasn't missing time with knee injuries.

[stuckincincy]

. A better OL will open up the running lanes for FJax, Spiller, and Brown that will force the D to load the box.

Their run game popped through the middle. Spiller is not an outside threat, save a handful of plays. Not re-signing Levitre was dumb. IMO. It remains to be seen if 3 rookie OLs make a difference, let alone make the cuts. The 3 that they selected carry question marks, at least according to "conventional wisdom." If they carry these 3, some other spots have to be depleted.

There were plenty of knocks here about Manuel's play last season here. Overthrows predominantly, IIRC. The BUF brain trust clouded everything by their PR move that touted a hurry-up with a rookie QB..

[JoeMama]

If the OL gels Manuel won't have to be much better than he was last year honestly. A better OL will open up the running lanes for FJax, Spiller, and Brown that will force the D to load the box and give Manuel and his WR's more space. Anybody who watched Manuel at FSU knows that when he has space he can put the ball anywhere he wants.

The OL is far more important than any other unit on this team and that includes the QB.

To be fair, he can't put the ball "anywhere" he wants.

I'm an FSU fan and his deep ball was definitely erratic in college.

But I'm not one of these guys who thinks it's unfixable -- once inaccurate, always inaccurate, etc etc. Plenty of QBs improve their accuracy and touch as their careers progress.

It's still his health that concerns me more than his gameplay.

[Skooby]

What QB can't throw to save his life.

Tebow.

[DraftBoy]

To be fair, he can't put the ball "anywhere" he wants.

I'm an FSU fan and his deep ball was definitely erratic in college.

But I'm not one of these guys who thinks it's unfixable -- once inaccurate, always inaccurate, etc etc. Plenty of QBs improve their accuracy and touch as their careers progress.

It's still his health that concerns me more than his gameplay.

I was referring more to his short to intermediate passing game when given time and space, but you are right his deep ball sucked most of his college career.

[JoeMama]

I was referring more to his short to intermediate passing game when given time and space, but you are right his deep ball sucked most of his college career.

True, his short to intermediate stuff is pretty solid when he's not laying on his back. He didn't have a 59% completion rate for nothing.

Pretty quick release too, which should make the line's job a little easier.

But the line can't have any repeats of the Tampa game last year where they just completely mailed it in and quit on the field. They weren't even trying.

[DraftBoy]

True, his short to intermediate stuff is pretty solid when he's not laying on his back. He didn't have a 59% completion rate for nothing.

Pretty quick release too, which should make the line's job a little easier.

But the line can't have any repeats of the Tampa game last year where they just completely mailed it in and quit on the field. They weren't even trying.

Oh no I agree, but that's why I think the OL as a unit is the most important part of this team and not the QB. At least not this year.

[psubills62]

Lots of...interesting points being made in this thread.

I personally don't believe that Schwartz's time in Detroit is a concern. Based on what I've seen in the NFL, if a coordinator or position coach excels at their job and is promoted to coordinator or HC, their tenure at their new job doesn't really have much to do with what they did before. For example, Mike Munchak ran some awesome OL's at Tennessee, got promoted to HC (way before he should have been), and his OL's sucked. Does that mean he's a bad OL coach? Not at all. Schwartz's defenses should be judged by his time as DC in Tennessee, IMO, not his defenses in Detroit.

USA Today has their reasoning. I don't totally agree with it, but such is life.

People are underestimating depth, IMO. Injuries were part of the reason we stunk last year. Jackson and Spiller constantly hurt, Manuel too. I don't remember how many of our OL were injured, but Hairston for sure was. Building depth is key. We go pretty deep at RB, WR, and OL now, and we seem to have better depth at LB and DB.

I'm curious to hear what exactly about Clemson's offense makes it a "gimmick." Also chuckled at the overblown notion of Spikes not being able to defend the pass. Not going to argue that mainly because my impression of him is similar, but I'd say welcome to playing linebacker in the NFL. Pretty rare nowadays to find LB's (especially MLB's) that are even decent at playing the pass. Schwartz's defenses in general at Tennessee always seemed to make use of a heavier MLB, and I never had the impression they were good against the pass. The Titans still managed OK.

Call me crazy, but I do think the team is overall more talented.

[Mr. Pink]

He had no business even being a starter last year, he was not ready, and that's on the Bills. If Kolb doesn't go down, he isn't forced into action. He'll be a lot better prepared going into year 2.

He has no business being an NFL QB period.

[Night Train]

He has no business being an NFL QB period.

Then the NFL should be reduced to 10-12 teams, tops.

That's how many "legit" QB's play pro football.

[GingerP]

I'm curious to hear what exactly about Clemson's offense makes it a "gimmick."

Clemson's offense is a spread-read offense similar to what Urban Meyer has run over the years. It is a great college offense, but isn't a base NFL offense. There are spread-read packages some teams use, so maybe that is why it is referred to as a "gimic".

[Fletch]

Then the NFL should be reduced to 10-12 teams, tops.

That's how many "legit" QB's play pro football.

I thought that 28 teams was good.

Once it became all about the money things have been on a perpetual downslide since. When they start with England teams and 14 or 16 teams making the playoffs I'm going to pull the plug. The 24-hour news cycle has reduced the NFL to a soap opera during the offseason and created massive overexposure during the season. They need to get rid of Thursday games too, not add more on Wednesdays or Saturdays.

- - - Updated - - -


Clemson's offense is a spread-read offense similar to what Urban Meyer has run over the years. It is a great college offense, but isn't a base NFL offense. There are spread-read packages some teams use, so maybe that is why it is referred to as a "gimic".

Otherwise you simply have to wonder why a QB that routinely pitched 30+ TDs in college, with few INTs, wasn't worth more than a 6th round pick.

[Fletch]

Well its a variable that quantifiable, this we aren't that good or we're great is all BS. Nobody knows how this team will perform but I can tell you we play some teams that we played / beat last year & some crappy looking teams. That should pad our win total without much help.

LOL

Again, with a tougher schedule this year, great argument.

[Fletch]

Wow I Just stated facts regarding Aikman.. Never implied Manuel would lead the Bills to the playoffs this season or that he was as good as Aikman

It's not a relevant comparison. That would be like saying that Rob Johnson or Trent Edwards, or Losman for that matter would blossom eventually by comparing them to Steve Young in Tampa. If it wasn't relevant why even bring it up?

[Fletch]

I remember Manning going 3-13 his rookie year, then doing really well the next.

He indicated that "the game had slowed down" for him.

I feel this will happen to EJM.

My worry are his knees.

I just think, they fought hard in 14 of 16 games last year, are second year of a good solid program, loaded with young talent.

I don't know if Marrone is it, or not, but his enthusiasm, and respect the players have for him, kind of remind me of Mularkey's tenure here. (minus the gadget plays)

That was the last time we even sniffed the playoffs.

So I'm hopeful.

I suppose. But Manning was a bona fide 1st overall selection, Manuel wasn't anything of the sort. Manning's collegiate numbers were twice what EJ's were and in a much tougher conference. I see little comparison. Manuel's also struggling with the same exact things that he struggled with in college, which is not a good sign considering that FSU had to dumb down the offense for him.

I've posted this piece a number of times, but if you haven't read it, then do so now. You'll see exactly what I'm talking about. I trust writers like these more than I do any scout that's merely reviewed highlight film. In fact, I wish that reporter fans like these would write up every draft pick every year, such reports would be worth so much more than the nickel ante nonsense of the "same as every other site" variety that pollutes the internet every offseason.

http://www.tomahawknation.com/2013/4/25/4264734/nfl-draft-2013-ej-manuel-next-level-florida-state

If you take the time to read through that you'll have no choice but to be very concerned as you'll note the same things happening here already.

[Ginger Vitis]

It's not a relevant comparison. That would be like saying that Rob Johnson or Trent Edwards, or Losman for that matter would blossom eventually by comparing them to Steve Young in Tampa. If it wasn't relevant why even bring it up?

I didn't bring up Troy Aikman BETTER DAYS did

[Fletch]

Not hardly. Randy Moss put up 69 catches for 1313 yards and 17 TDs, and was the key piece of one of the best offenses in NFL history. Now obviously he didn't do it alone, and obviously Watkins has a lot to prove to even be mentioned in the same breath as Moss, but still.

Good catch! For some reason he didn't come up on my database search. Having said that, Moss was special, taller, and his collegiate numbers were that of a phenom. The same cannot be said for Watkins.

As to my point about the example, it's not applicable since the Vikes posted a winning record the season prior. Two years prior in fact. He also had Randall Cunningham throwing to him. There is little comparison.

[Fletch]

1 player who was 52 in the NFL in Rate when he wasn't missing time with knee injuries.

All I know is that he was outplayed last year by his fellow rookies that got significant playing time. McGloin and Glennon both had better rookie campaigns on a per-game basis. Smith we can argue was comparable although different. Either way, Manuel wasn't so much better than Smith that it merited us selecting him 16th overall. Glennon was a mid-3rd and McGloin wasn't even drafted. Both played on teams worse in talent than ours.

[Fletch]

This is my biggest worry. the bills defense isn't an allstart team. the front 7 is good and perhaps a little better if pettine stayed. but these guys are going to be all in a new learning curve. some get it, some don't. some aren't fit for it, some were born for it. i don't know enough to say what i think will happen. but i think he isn't going to be as aggressive as pettine and that sit back and let the play come to you approach is going to toast these CB's and secondary. i think if they stay aggressive and keep at it, we can keep masking the weaker secondary. and i am fine with that.

schwarz also didn't have a dominant name LB in Detroit. or at least that i can think of off the top of my head. perhaps he is better with kiko who showed flashes of being a game changer.

I didn't do a statistical analysis on last year's defense, but i feel like having watched all the games, the defense played well in the first half. they kept the team in it. but the offense kept stalling and their time on the field kept extending. so i feel like the stats might need to be weighted for how much time they were on the field. i remember thinking they always kept us in it to the end and if we had an offense that could have helped out more, they would have done more than enough to justify a higher stat line.

Good post!

I'll comment on the bolded part.

We were aggressive as you say, and it resulted in some positive statistics, but keep in mind that we didn't play a lot of the best passing teams. This season we play five of last seaosn's top six passing teams.

Also, while we were "aggressive," and had more sacks, did this help us? We gave up 3 more passing TDs than we had the year before.

As I see it, designing a defense around being aggressive only works on certain O's and QBs. Brady, Manning, etc. know how to deal with that, as apparently Ryan and Brees did too as they led their teams to huge offensive days despite our having logged 10 sacks on those two teams.

So for me it's more of a be careful what you wish for, you may get it kinda thing. We were aggressive, but in hindsight, the better coaches, which are the ones we're going to have to beat if we want to improve, simply danced around that and ran no-name RBs to the tune of often 150+ yards and took advantage of our aggressiveness, which was overaggressiveness at times.

Few people seem to see that, they simply count the stats and call it a day, but there's a lot more to it than that.

Being less aggressive IMO will be better. The question is how good will the D be w/o Byrd and with Spikes, who is terrible against the pass, perhaps the worst starting MLB in the league as such.

We'll see, but a downturn in sacks won't simply mean that the D got worse. If we can prevent the Chris Ivory's and Bilal Powell's of the world, among even lesser known RBs, from posing 100+ yards and looking like Terrell Davis, even with 36 sacks it may be an improvement.

I think what we're going to see in Cleveland is Pettine flopping.

- - - Updated - - -


I didn't bring up Troy Aikman BETTER DAYS did

You commented on it.

[Fletch]

So, we have Moss, Boldin and Glenn.

With a little research, here are some others:

Keenan Allen last year with San Diego. He had a big year and the team improved from also-ran to playoff team.

Bullet Bob Hayes had a big impact with the Cowboys as a rookie, though they were already pretty good.

Bill Groman of the Houston Oilers, who not only had a huge rookie year but helped his team to an AFL Championship.

Cris Collinsworth had a big impact on the the Bengals with a big rookie year, helping to turn them around from also-ran to a Super Bowl appearance.

John Jefferson with San Diego, who made the Pro Bowl his first 3 years in the NFL in helping the Chargers go from 7-7 before he got there to 9-7, 12-4 & 11-5.

Once again, you need to read the entire thing. Boldin doesn't count. Despite that monster season as a rookie his team did no better than we've been doing. His Cards, at least once with Warner slinging, did not even post a winning season until his 6th year in the league.

Same for Moss who already came to a winning team and which really was just "that player away" and Randall Cunningham playing QB.

Glenn is the singular example.

As to keenan Allen, again, you are wrong. The Chargers have been a 7-9 to 9-7 team for years. That's all they were last year. They've had only one losing season the last 10 years.

As to the others, prior to this I'd qualified that to the modern era. There are too many differences between this era of NFL football and the pre-free-agency era to draw comps from. Again, even so, Jefferson had Fouts throwing to him. Manuel isn't even close.

With Watkins you're talking about taking a 6-10 team to at least 10-6 based on the production of a WR. This doesn't take into account Hackett, Marone, or Manuel.

[Fletch]

If the OL gels Manuel won't have to be much better than he was last year honestly. A better OL will open up the running lanes for FJax, Spiller, and Brown that will force the D to load the box and give Manuel and his WR's more space. Anybody who watched Manuel at FSU knows that when he has space he can put the ball anywhere he wants.

The OL is far more important than any other unit on this team and that includes the QB.

And our hope for that comes from rookies.

[Fletch]

I think it's the opposite.

With a good O line, Jeff Hostetler can win a SB.....lol.

:couch:

Or at least your RBs can when the rush for 162 yards on nearly 5 ypc. The big difference in that game was The Tuna vs. Levy.

Kinda like last season for us, or against us I should say.

[Fletch]

To be fair, he can't put the ball "anywhere" he wants.

I'm an FSU fan and his deep ball was definitely erratic in college.

But I'm not one of these guys who thinks it's unfixable -- once inaccurate, always inaccurate, etc etc. Plenty of QBs improve their accuracy and touch as their careers progress.

It's still his health that concerns me more than his gameplay.

I'm curious what you think about the article that I posted the link to above which was written by two FSU fans. They disagree with your take on correcting things for Manuel.

As we all know, FSU had to dumb down the offense after giving up trying to correct his errors. That's a huge flaw for a team to select him in the mid 1st. I agree with the writers, mid-2nd tops.

Anyway, read it and let me know what you think. Those guys claim to have seen every game Manuel played in.

[Fletch]

Lots of...interesting points being made in this thread.

I personally don't believe that Schwartz's time in Detroit is a concern. Based on what I've seen in the NFL, if a coordinator or position coach excels at their job and is promoted to coordinator or HC, their tenure at their new job doesn't really have much to do with what they did before. For example, Mike Munchak ran some awesome OL's at Tennessee, got promoted to HC (way before he should have been), and his OL's sucked. Does that mean he's a bad OL coach? Not at all. Schwartz's defenses should be judged by his time as DC in Tennessee, IMO, not his defenses in Detroit.

USA Today has their reasoning. I don't totally agree with it, but such is life.

People are underestimating depth, IMO. Injuries were part of the reason we stunk last year. Jackson and Spiller constantly hurt, Manuel too. I don't remember how many of our OL were injured, but Hairston for sure was. Building depth is key. We go pretty deep at RB, WR, and OL now, and we seem to have better depth at LB and DB.

I'm curious to hear what exactly about Clemson's offense makes it a "gimmick." Also chuckled at the overblown notion of Spikes not being able to defend the pass. Not going to argue that mainly because my impression of him is similar, but I'd say welcome to playing linebacker in the NFL. Pretty rare nowadays to find LB's (especially MLB's) that are even decent at playing the pass. Schwartz's defenses in general at Tennessee always seemed to make use of a heavier MLB, and I never had the impression they were good against the pass. The Titans still managed OK.

Call me crazy, but I do think the team is overall more talented.

I'll address some of your comments.

It's well documented that Spikes sucks vs. the pass. Here's merely one article on a quick google, but Pats fans weren't particularly sorry to see him leave.

http://q.usatoday.com/2014/05/29/nfl-overrated-players-afc-ray-rice-danny-amendola/

It's also well known, for anyone that's watched Spikes in NE, that he's not a 3-down LB. The Pats took him off the field often on 3rd downs.

Here's another article on him to help you chuckle along;

http://nesn.com/2014/01/brandon-spikes-absence-will-hurt-patriots-run-defense-but-linebackers-knee-injury-was-hindering-play/

It talks about how losing him will hurt the run D but likely help the pass D.

Replacing Spikes with Fletcher and Collins will no doubt hurt New England’s run defense, but the Patriots could see an improvement against the pass. Spikes has always shown quality instincts in pass defense, but his speed limits his ability. Fletcher is the most likely replacement for Spikes, but New England does have two other possibilities.

Read more at: http://nesn.com/2014/01/brandon-spikes-absence-will-hurt-patriots-run-defense-but-linebackers-knee-injury-was-hindering-play/

Here's another article on Spikes, he clearly didn't have Belicheat's endorsement. Otherwise it reiterates the same stuff, came off the field on 3rds, few impact plays, etc.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/03/08/brandon-spikes-looking-for-fresh-start-elsewhere/Tx0RWnai8CSNmzf5wxv9qN/story.html

Our QB coach also comes from Detroit and he was essentially fired for having Stafford regress on his watch. FWIW

Manuel came with an injury warning on his package. Jackson's at the age where we'll be lucky to see him make 16 games. Spiller too has had his history with injuries since he's been here. He's not the most durable RB. So I'm not sure that expecting all three to make it through 16 games without significant injuries is wise thinking.

There are two answers to your Clemson gimmick question, but first, consider this; why wasn't a QB that consistent threw for 30+ TDs over three seasons (33/12, 36/13, 34/11) drafted higher than the late 6th round? Too short? He's the same height as Drew Brees.

The answer is precisely because it was a gimmick offense and NFL teams don't think it will translate.

Here's a good article on Boyd from late last season; http://isportsweb.com/2013/11/26/clemsonfootball-boyds-judgment-day-is-fast-approaching/

As to Clemson's gimmicky offense, in short, and from Watkins' draft review on NFL.com;

Weaknesses: Production results heavily from a gimmicky offense.

A huge portion of Watkins' success was predicated off of bubble screens, which aren't successful in the NFL, hence, he'll have to more or less reinvent himself. As we all know, crisp route running is key for top NFL WRs, but that's among his weaknesses too. You can read it yourself, almost all of his reviews say the same two things.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/sammy-watkins?id=2543457

Also says this: Does not consistently work the middle of the field. Could improve field awareness. Is still immature and could require some time to acclimate to an NFL playbook.

That's big stuff for a move to the NFL. So we'll see, but he's not going to be able to butter his bread on bubble screens like he did at Clemson. That much is certain although I'm sure that our crack coaching staff will try anyway for half a season.

Here's one of his positives; Superb run-after-the-catch ability. Good burst out of his cuts to separate. Has game-breaking return ability and is a threat to score every time he touches the ball.

Where have we heard that before? Oh yeah, we had it pounded into our ears regarding Spiller.

[GingerP]

People are underestimating depth, IMO. Injuries were part of the reason we stunk last year. Jackson and Spiller constantly hurt, Manuel too. I don't remember how many of our OL were injured, but Hairston for sure was. Building depth is key. We go pretty deep at RB, WR, and OL now, and we seem to have better depth at LB and DB.

The Bills were one of the more fortunate teams in the NFL last year in terms of games lost to injury:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/dallas-cowboys/headlines/20140107-gosselin-injuries-are-no-excuse-for-another-mediocre-dallas-cowboys-season.ece

That tends to even out over time, so they better build depth.

[JoeMama]

I'm curious what you think about the article that I posted the link to above which was written by two FSU fans. They disagree with your take on correcting things for Manuel.

As we all know, FSU had to dumb down the offense after giving up trying to correct his errors. That's a huge flaw for a team to select him in the mid 1st. I agree with the writers, mid-2nd tops.

Anyway, read it and let me know what you think. Those guys claim to have seen every game Manuel played in.

They make some good points about EJ's deficiencies, but miss the mark on others.

I lived in Tallahassee for most of his tenure there. So like these guys, I saw almost every snap he took.

What I saw was from EJ puts me at odds with some of their comments.

1) The word in Tallahassee was that EJ Manuel and Jimbo Fisher were often in disagreement about his role as a QB because they wanted to run the QB option WAY too often (which is a fair assessment, Fisher's infatuation with the run first/pass second approach was a mistake, IMO).

2) The root of this disagreement was a good-natured one on EJ's part (not a petulant one, as they seem to hint at). He wanted to develop into more of a pocket passer who didn't need to rely on running for his life 60% of his snaps. His idea of helping the team win was by becoming a more polished passer but Fisher insisted on the RGIII route. And make no mistake, EJ clearly had his NFL future in mind by -- speculatively -- opposing Fisher's offensive approach. Fisher was trying to make EJ something he had no intention of being, a run-first QB.

3) The resulting compromised playbook was in many ways unintentional. EJ apparently chose not to run the QB option as often as they wanted by hanging in the pocket rather than scrambling around, which apparently infuriated the coaching staff. And for this, I don't blame him. The best quarterbacks are still primarily pocket passers and he had an NFL future in mind. So it is what it is.

These are a few of the things that floated around the Tally rumor mill and I put more stock in them than these writers, who seem to think the coaches did everything in their power to fix him when their goal clearly seemed to mold him into a scrambling, run first college QB. EJ had bigger aspirations. It wasn't a great match since he didn't see eye to eye with the coaches. And in this case, I think the coaches were in the wrong strategically.

So while many of the flaws in EJ's game are very real, I fall into a different category of FSU fans. The ones that thought Jimbo was in over his head the first couple years by insisting on a flawed offensive philosophy for the talent he was given. Jameis Winston took the Noles to the next level in 2013, not the coaches. But to their credit, they let Winston do what he does best, capitalize on his amazing accuracy from the pocket and scrambling only when necessary. This approach would have been a better option for EJ.

I'm on the fence whether this kid can cut it in the NFL since I saw some fantastic games from him and a few duds as well in year one.

But one thing EJ has going for him is that he did win all his bowl games when the stakes were highest. He's a savvy guy and he has the mentality and work ethic to potentially make it work.

Like I've said a hundred times, it's his health and erratic deep ball that need work. His tenure at FSU deserves a grade of "incomplete" since I don't think they focused on his strengths but rather tried to make him into something he didn't want to be and didn't match his skill set.

[BillsImpossible]

Put down the crack pipe!

[JoeMama]

Put down the crack pipe!

Why?

I hear crack is a lot of fun... for about 5 minutes.

[Skooby]

Why?

I hear crack is a lot of fun... for about 5 minutes.

Or until you can fill it again.

[better days]

I'll address some of your comments.

It's well documented that Spikes sucks vs. the pass. Here's merely one article on a quick google, but Pats fans weren't particularly sorry to see him leave.

http://q.usatoday.com/2014/05/29/nfl-overrated-players-afc-ray-rice-danny-amendola/

It's also well known, for anyone that's watched Spikes in NE, that he's not a 3-down LB. The Pats took him off the field often on 3rd downs.

Here's another article on him to help you chuckle along;

http://nesn.com/2014/01/brandon-spikes-absence-will-hurt-patriots-run-defense-but-linebackers-knee-injury-was-hindering-play/

It talks about how losing him will hurt the run D but likely help the pass D.

Replacing Spikes with Fletcher and Collins will no doubt hurt New England’s run defense, but the Patriots could see an improvement against the pass. Spikes has always shown quality instincts in pass defense, but his speed limits his ability. Fletcher is the most likely replacement for Spikes, but New England does have two other possibilities.

Read more at: http://nesn.com/2014/01/brandon-spikes-absence-will-hurt-patriots-run-defense-but-linebackers-knee-injury-was-hindering-play/

Here's another article on Spikes, he clearly didn't have Belicheat's endorsement. Otherwise it reiterates the same stuff, came off the field on 3rds, few impact plays, etc.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/03/08/brandon-spikes-looking-for-fresh-start-elsewhere/Tx0RWnai8CSNmzf5wxv9qN/story.html

Our QB coach also comes from Detroit and he was essentially fired for having Stafford regress on his watch. FWIW

Manuel came with an injury warning on his package. Jackson's at the age where we'll be lucky to see him make 16 games. Spiller too has had his history with injuries since he's been here. He's not the most durable RB. So I'm not sure that expecting all three to make it through 16 games without significant injuries is wise thinking.

There are two answers to your Clemson gimmick question, but first, consider this; why wasn't a QB that consistent threw for 30+ TDs over three seasons (33/12, 36/13, 34/11) drafted higher than the late 6th round? Too short? He's the same height as Drew Brees.

The answer is precisely because it was a gimmick offense and NFL teams don't think it will translate.

Here's a good article on Boyd from late last season; http://isportsweb.com/2013/11/26/clemsonfootball-boyds-judgment-day-is-fast-approaching/

As to Clemson's gimmicky offense, in short, and from Watkins' draft review on NFL.com;

Weaknesses: Production results heavily from a gimmicky offense.

A huge portion of Watkins' success was predicated off of bubble screens, which aren't successful in the NFL, hence, he'll have to more or less reinvent himself. As we all know, crisp route running is key for top NFL WRs, but that's among his weaknesses too. You can read it yourself, almost all of his reviews say the same two things.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/sammy-watkins?id=2543457

Also says this: Does not consistently work the middle of the field. Could improve field awareness. Is still immature and could require some time to acclimate to an NFL playbook.

That's big stuff for a move to the NFL. So we'll see, but he's not going to be able to butter his bread on bubble screens like he did at Clemson. That much is certain although I'm sure that our crack coaching staff will try anyway for half a season.

Here's one of his positives; Superb run-after-the-catch ability. Good burst out of his cuts to separate. Has game-breaking return ability and is a threat to score every time he touches the ball.

Where have we heard that before? Oh yeah, we had it pounded into our ears regarding Spiller.

How can it be well documented Spikes sucks VS the pass when he only played two downs?

And one of the links noted it would take not one, but THREE players to replace Spikes.

And the Pats* SUCKED against BOTH the run & pass against the Broncos in the Championship game without Spikes.

I can't wait to see Spikes lay the wood wearing a Bills uniform.

[Mr. Pink]

Then the NFL should be reduced to 10-12 teams, tops.

That's how many "legit" QB's play pro football.

Contraction would do wonders for the game...both in terms of teams, games and playoff teams.

What you have now is a watered down product with some teams that are so bad they'd have difficulty against some of the powerhouse NCAA teams.

[pmoon6]

How can it be well documented Spikes sucks VS the pass when he only played two downs?

And one of the links noted it would take not one, but THREE players to replace Spikes.

And the Pats* SUCKED against BOTH the run & pass against the Broncos in the Championship game without Spikes.

I can't wait to see Spikes lay the wood wearing a Bills uniform.You forget one of the most important tenets in the philosophy of todays' Bills Fan.

Once a player puts on a Bills' uniform, their talent level drops from good to suckage.

[pmoon6]

Or until you can fill it again.Ahhh. A man speaking from experience.

Yeah, we can tell.

[feldspar]

Somehow, I can't bring myself to care about anybody's predictions for the season.

[YardRat]

Contraction would do wonders for the game...both in terms of teams, games and playoff teams.

What you have now is a watered down product with some teams that are so bad they'd have difficulty against some of the powerhouse NCAA teams.

I disagree. There are a few teams at the top, a few teams at the very bottom, and most of the league battling it out in the middle for a few playoffs spots that can't be filled by the elite teams. The line between making the playoffs and not is razor thin for those teams in the middle. College football has also progressed over the years, so they are providing more than enough talent to adequately stock 32 rosters, at least as well as they ever have. Also, IMO it's not a new phemomena that the very worst of the pro teams might have difficulty against the elite college teams.

[swiper]

I disagree. There are a few teams at the top, a few teams at the very bottom, and most of the league battling it out in the middle for a few playoffs spots that can't be filled by the elite teams. The line between making the playoffs and not is razor thin for those teams in the middle. College football has also progressed over the years, so they are providing more than enough talent to adequately stock 32 rosters, at least as well as they ever have. Also, IMO it's not a new phemomena that the very worst of the pro teams might have difficulty against the elite college teams.

The problem with it is that teams like the Jags, Browns, Bills are annual cellar-dwellers. It would be ok if there was some flip-flop with the top & bottom teams from time to time. But when the top & bottom teams continue to (generally) stay where they are, with no evolution, the "product" becomes stagnant. That fact, was part and parcel for the national popularity that the Jim Kelly Bill's enjoyed. People who weren't necessarily Bills fans out-of-the-box were curious and got behind the team as they enjoyed their rise to the top.

The current Bills, Browns, Jags, Raiders - all have had multiple staffs in with the same results. No need to remind anyone that the Bills had Gregg Williams, Mike Mularkey, Dick Jauron, Chan Gailey and now Marrone. It is not necessarily a great sign that in Marrone's sophmore OTA's observers keep describing the offense as looking "sloppy."

[Fletch]

They make some good points about EJ's deficiencies, but miss the mark on others.

I lived in Tallahassee for most of his tenure there. So like these guys, I saw almost every snap he took.

What I saw was from EJ puts me at odds with some of their comments.

1) The word in Tallahassee was that EJ Manuel and Jimbo Fisher were often in disagreement about his role as a QB because they wanted to run the QB option WAY too often (which is a fair assessment, Fisher's infatuation with the run first/pass second approach was a mistake, IMO).

2) The root of this disagreement was a good-natured one on EJ's part (not a petulant one, as they seem to hint at). He wanted to develop into more of a pocket passer who didn't need to rely on running for his life 60% of his snaps. His idea of helping the team win was by becoming a more polished passer but Fisher insisted on the RGIII route. And make no mistake, EJ clearly had his NFL future in mind by -- speculatively -- opposing Fisher's offensive approach. Fisher was trying to make EJ something he had no intention of being, a run-first QB.

3) The resulting compromised playbook was in many ways unintentional. EJ apparently chose not to run the QB option as often as they wanted by hanging in the pocket rather than scrambling around, which apparently infuriated the coaching staff. And for this, I don't blame him. The best quarterbacks are still primarily pocket passers and he had an NFL future in mind. So it is what it is.

These are a few of the things that floated around the Tally rumor mill and I put more stock in them than these writers, who seem to think the coaches did everything in their power to fix him when their goal clearly seemed to mold him into a scrambling, run first college QB. EJ had bigger aspirations. It wasn't a great match since he didn't see eye to eye with the coaches. And in this case, I think the coaches were in the wrong strategically.

So while many of the flaws in EJ's game are very real, I fall into a different category of FSU fans. The ones that thought Jimbo was in over his head the first couple years by insisting on a flawed offensive philosophy for the talent he was given. Jameis Winston took the Noles to the next level in 2013, not the coaches. But to their credit, they let Winston do what he does best, capitalize on his amazing accuracy from the pocket and scrambling only when necessary. This approach would have been a better option for EJ.

I'm on the fence whether this kid can cut it in the NFL since I saw some fantastic games from him and a few duds as well in year one.

But one thing EJ has going for him is that he did win all his bowl games when the stakes were highest. He's a savvy guy and he has the mentality and work ethic to potentially make it work.

Like I've said a hundred times, it's his health and erratic deep ball that need work. His tenure at FSU deserves a grade of "incomplete" since I don't think they focused on his strengths but rather tried to make him into something he didn't want to be and didn't match his skill set.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to that and for the well thought out response.

I will only necessarily take issue with a couple of those points.

First, there isn't a significant difference in the percentage of times that Manuel ran as a Senior than Winston did as a Freshman last season.

Regarding his bowl games, I'm not sure that we can say that he was the primary reason why FSU won its bowl games.

In his Sr. season the N. Illinois passing D was ranked 85th, Manuel had a decent game but only 1 passing TD. The running game tore it up and the FSU D only allowed 10 points to a team that had averaged over 40 ppg going into that game.

In his Jr. season they played Notre Shame which also wasn't very good pass D wise. Manuel put up about what Notre Shame allowed on average that season. Again, the FSU held to only 7 offensive points a team that had averaged over 30 coming in.

In his sophomore season he didn't even hit 100 yards passing. It was the rushing game that carried the O that game and once again the D held a team that had averaged over 30 points to just 17.

As a freshman, again, it was a pedestrian game with 189 yards passing and no TDs. He had good rushing stats, the only game in which he did.

All in all as a passer he was 74 for 108, 68.5%, 813 yards (average of 203), 4 TDs, 0 INTs, in those four bowl games. That's an average of 19 of 27 for 203 yards and 1 TD. Hardly impressive.

At the end of the day though, and in going back to that article, we saw the same things here in Buffalo that those guys mentioned in their piece, which to me definitely renders it credible after the fact.

We'll see, the season starts soon, but I have difficulty envisioning that Manuel logs more TDs passing than he ever did in any single season at FSU, which was a max of 23 and I don't think he comes close to that.

[Fletch]

You forget one of the most important tenets in the philosophy of todays' Bills Fan.

Once a player puts on a Bills' uniform, their talent level drops from good to suckage.

I have betterdays on ignore so the only posts I see of his are ones quoted. But once again he proves his lack of wisdom and overall ignorance here regarding Spikes. There are stats on Spikes' pass D, they didn't take him off the field all the time on 3rds and some of those plays which they didn't were passes, obviously. Also, better days' implication is that Pats' opponents never passed on 1st downs or 2nd downs, when 1st downs are typically passing downs.

But the kicker is that Belicheat, despite what we all think of him as a person, knows a little bit more about the talents of players than better days does. At least in everyone else's mind but better days.

[better days]

The problem with it is that teams like the Jags, Browns, Bills are annual cellar-dwellers. It would be ok if there was some flip-flop with the top & bottom teams from time to time. But when the top & bottom teams continue to (generally) stay where they are, with no evolution, the "product" becomes stagnant. That fact, was part and parcel for the national popularity that the Jim Kelly Bill's enjoyed. People who weren't necessarily Bills fans out-of-the-box were curious and got behind the team as they enjoyed their rise to the top.

The current Bills, Browns, Jags, Raiders - all have had multiple staffs in with the same results. No need to remind anyone that the Bills had Gregg Williams, Mike Mularkey, Dick Jauron, Chan Gailey and now Marrone. It is not necessarily a great sign that in Marrone's sophmore OTA's observers keep describing the offense as looking "sloppy."

It was only one day of the OTA's that the offense was described that way.

On the other days, the offense was described as GOOD. Especially Watkins was described as looking good in OTA's.

One good thing IMO is that Williams, Mularkey, Jauron & Gailey did not go on to have any more success anywhere else.

Had any of them gone on to have great success like Belickick did after leaving the Browns, that would have really been aggravating.

And there are a few teams right behind the Bills like the Jags, Browns, Raiders that could soon overtake the Bills record in futility if the Bills turn things around.

[psubills62]

I'll address some of your comments.

It's well documented that Spikes sucks vs. the pass. Here's merely one article on a quick google, but Pats fans weren't particularly sorry to see him leave.

http://q.usatoday.com/2014/05/29/nfl-overrated-players-afc-ray-rice-danny-amendola/

It's also well known, for anyone that's watched Spikes in NE, that he's not a 3-down LB. The Pats took him off the field often on 3rd downs.

Here's another article on him to help you chuckle along;

http://nesn.com/2014/01/brandon-spikes-absence-will-hurt-patriots-run-defense-but-linebackers-knee-injury-was-hindering-play/

It talks about how losing him will hurt the run D but likely help the pass D.

Replacing Spikes with Fletcher and Collins will no doubt hurt New England’s run defense, but the Patriots could see an improvement against the pass. Spikes has always shown quality instincts in pass defense, but his speed limits his ability. Fletcher is the most likely replacement for Spikes, but New England does have two other possibilities.

Read more at: http://nesn.com/2014/01/brandon-spikes-absence-will-hurt-patriots-run-defense-but-linebackers-knee-injury-was-hindering-play/

Here's another article on Spikes, he clearly didn't have Belicheat's endorsement. Otherwise it reiterates the same stuff, came off the field on 3rds, few impact plays, etc.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/03/08/brandon-spikes-looking-for-fresh-start-elsewhere/Tx0RWnai8CSNmzf5wxv9qN/story.html

Our QB coach also comes from Detroit and he was essentially fired for having Stafford regress on his watch. FWIW

Manuel came with an injury warning on his package. Jackson's at the age where we'll be lucky to see him make 16 games. Spiller too has had his history with injuries since he's been here. He's not the most durable RB. So I'm not sure that expecting all three to make it through 16 games without significant injuries is wise thinking.

There are two answers to your Clemson gimmick question, but first, consider this; why wasn't a QB that consistent threw for 30+ TDs over three seasons (33/12, 36/13, 34/11) drafted higher than the late 6th round? Too short? He's the same height as Drew Brees.

The answer is precisely because it was a gimmick offense and NFL teams don't think it will translate.

Here's a good article on Boyd from late last season; http://isportsweb.com/2013/11/26/clemsonfootball-boyds-judgment-day-is-fast-approaching/

As to Clemson's gimmicky offense, in short, and from Watkins' draft review on NFL.com;

Weaknesses: Production results heavily from a gimmicky offense.

A huge portion of Watkins' success was predicated off of bubble screens, which aren't successful in the NFL, hence, he'll have to more or less reinvent himself. As we all know, crisp route running is key for top NFL WRs, but that's among his weaknesses too. You can read it yourself, almost all of his reviews say the same two things.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/sammy-watkins?id=2543457

Also says this: Does not consistently work the middle of the field. Could improve field awareness. Is still immature and could require some time to acclimate to an NFL playbook.

That's big stuff for a move to the NFL. So we'll see, but he's not going to be able to butter his bread on bubble screens like he did at Clemson. That much is certain although I'm sure that our crack coaching staff will try anyway for half a season.

Here's one of his positives; Superb run-after-the-catch ability. Good burst out of his cuts to separate. Has game-breaking return ability and is a threat to score every time he touches the ball.

Where have we heard that before? Oh yeah, we had it pounded into our ears regarding Spiller.
Your response to the Spikes stuff indicates you didn't actually read that part of my post.

A QB with those stats may not be drafted because great stats don't always translate into upside at the NFL level, just like great stats in HS don't always translate to college. Drew Brees, as Op would say, is the exception to the rule.

What exactly were you responding to with the Spiller/Jackson point? I'm pretty sure the FO went out and got two more good RB's who could fill in if they get injured. How is that counting on them to go 16 games? And personally, I would have liked to see them bring in a QB.

Haha, so because they said something similar about Spiller, what are you insinuating? That Watkins will turn out just like Spiller? Sure... Watkins isn't polished, but that is something teachable. What Watkins has is not teachable. Will he reach his maximum potential in the first year? Doubtful. Is he going to be an effective weapon this year? Very likely. Marrone came from New Orleans, where the screen pass (not just bubble screens) is a staple of the offense, and they have a lot of success with it. Now I would certainly like to see more creativity from Hackett, but Watkins can certainly be effective in the offense this year. Especially since we have a number of other weapons.

[better days]

I have betterdays on ignore so the only posts I see of his are ones quoted. But once again he proves his lack of wisdom and overall ignorance here regarding Spikes. There are stats on Spikes' pass D, they didn't take him off the field all the time on 3rds and some of those plays which they didn't were passes, obviously. Also, better days' implication is that Pats' opponents never passed on 1st downs or 2nd downs, when 1st downs are typically passing downs.

But the kicker is that Belicheat, despite what we all think of him as a person, knows a little bit more about the talents of players than better days does. At least in everyone else's mind but better days.

People talk of Spikes as Fletch does, but NEVER show the stats that show how terrible Spikes is in the passing game.

With Spikes no longer on the team, Belichick will continue to substitute & move players around on defense.

And yes, I do know Bill Belichick knows much more about the talents of players than I do.

And here is a clue people, Belichick DRAFTED Spikes & made him a STARTER his rookie year.

Spikes is no longer a Pat* because he is his own man & refused to knuckle under & submit himself to Belichick's whims, not because of his play on the field.

[psubills62]

The Bills were one of the more fortunate teams in the NFL last year in terms of games lost to injury:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/dallas-cowboys/headlines/20140107-gosselin-injuries-are-no-excuse-for-another-mediocre-dallas-cowboys-season.ece

That tends to even out over time, so they better build depth.
Most fortunate isn't the phrase I would use. Not every starter is equal. Manuel and Spiller are IMO the two most important players on offense, possibly the team. And it comes around to depth...a team with great depth losing a starter is much better off than a team with poor depth. The drop off for us at QB especially was huge after Manuel due to losing Kolb and adding guys who hadn't really been in the system.

[psubills62]

And our hope for that comes from rookies.
So?

[better days]

Most fortunate isn't the phrase I would use. Not every starter is equal. Manuel and Spiller are IMO the two most important players on offense, possibly the team. And it comes around to depth...a team with great depth losing a starter is much better off than a team with poor depth. The drop off for us at QB especially was huge after Manuel due to losing Kolb and adding guys who hadn't really been in the system.

The first Jets game was lost due to all the injuries the Bills suffered in the secondary.

The Bills were forced to start a player at CB that had no business being on the field.

[Skooby]

The first Jets game was lost due to all the injuries the Bills suffered in the secondary.

The Bills were forced to start a player at CB that had no business being on the field.

No depth, it killed us.

[BuffaloRedleg]

If we miss out on a top 10 draft pick next year the entire FO should be fired immediately. They want to step up and take a chance then they are making their own bed and they should sleep in it.

They'll be gone of course and we'll be back to square one as bills fans as usual.

Man, next years draft is going to be humiliating if this doesn't work out.

[YardRat]

The problem with it is that teams like the Jags, Browns, Bills are annual cellar-dwellers. It would be ok if there was some flip-flop with the top & bottom teams from time to time. But when the top & bottom teams continue to (generally) stay where they are, with no evolution, the "product" becomes stagnant. That fact, was part and parcel for the national popularity that the Jim Kelly Bill's enjoyed. People who weren't necessarily Bills fans out-of-the-box were curious and got behind the team as they enjoyed their rise to the top.

The current Bills, Browns, Jags, Raiders - all have had multiple staffs in with the same results. No need to remind anyone that the Bills had Gregg Williams, Mike Mularkey, Dick Jauron, Chan Gailey and now Marrone. It is not necessarily a great sign that in Marrone's sophmore OTA's observers keep describing the offense as looking "sloppy."

They do flip-flop from time to time, and regardless of whether there are 32 teams or 24 teams, if the organization does a piss-poor job of acquiring talent and continues to cycle in-and-out coaching staffs they are going to be consistently bad. As a matter of fact, there were more 'dynasty' type teams in the league when they had fewer teams competing than there have been in the last couple of decades.

[YardRat]

Thanks for taking the time to respond to that and for the well thought out response.

I will only necessarily take issue with a couple of those points.

First, there isn't a significant difference in the percentage of times that Manuel ran as a Senior than Winston did as a Freshman last season.

Regarding his bowl games, I'm not sure that we can say that he was the primary reason why FSU won its bowl games.

In his Sr. season the N. Illinois passing D was ranked 85th, Manuel had a decent game but only 1 passing TD. The running game tore it up and the FSU D only allowed 10 points to a team that had averaged over 40 ppg going into that game.

In his Jr. season they played Notre Shame which also wasn't very good pass D wise. Manuel put up about what Notre Shame allowed on average that season. Again, the FSU held to only 7 offensive points a team that had averaged over 30 coming in.

In his sophomore season he didn't even hit 100 yards passing. It was the rushing game that carried the O that game and once again the D held a team that had averaged over 30 points to just 17.

As a freshman, again, it was a pedestrian game with 189 yards passing and no TDs. He had good rushing stats, the only game in which he did.

All in all as a passer he was 74 for 108, 68.5%, 813 yards (average of 203), 4 TDs, 0 INTs, in those four bowl games. That's an average of 19 of 27 for 203 yards and 1 TD. Hardly impressive.

At the end of the day though, and in going back to that article, we saw the same things here in Buffalo that those guys mentioned in their piece, which to me definitely renders it credible after the fact.

We'll see, the season starts soon, but I have difficulty envisioning that Manuel logs more TDs passing than he ever did in any single season at FSU, which was a max of 23 and I don't think he comes close to that.

Reader's Digest Condensed Version---EJ can win when he's supported by a strong defense, offensive line and running game.

Hmmm...what has the team been working on improving since Whaley and Marrone's arrival?

[swiper]

It was only one day of the OTA's that the offense was described that way.

On the other days, the offense was described as GOOD.

As per usual, you are wrong.


OTA Day#6:


1) Bills do the two-minute drill
- For the first time in 2014, the Bills carved out a portion of their practice for EJ Manuel to run two separate two-minute drills. The results of the attempts weren’t exactly earth shattering. Both times, Manuel started with 1:42 on the clock and more than half the field to go to the end zone. On their first drill, the offense started with an 8-yard pass to Tony Moeaki. From there, it got ugly. A poorly executed screen attempt on second down resulted in zero yards. That was followed up by a slant to Chris Hogan that was broken up by Corey Graham, and then Hogan was once again targeted on a fourth-down comeback route. He slipped on his break and the ball sailed out of bounds, ending that rendition of the drill. The second one got going a little bit more than the first. After having a throw to the flat to Robert Woods tipped, the receiver still corralled it for a four-yard gain. Manuel then hit Woods over the middle for about an 18-yard gain on his most crisp pass of the drill, beating the zone coverage. The quarterback then missed on a deep throw to Marquise Goodwin, completed a six-yard pass on second down and then had a rather peculiar two-yard gain. His pass was batted back to him, so he caught it and ran, still leaving them two-yards short of the first down. On fourth down, rookie Cyrus Kouandjio was called for holding, and the drill came to an end. It wasn’t exactly the smoothest of exercises, but you have to start somewhere.


OTA Day #5:


1) Sloppy day for the offense
- For three straight practices, it seemed as though the offense was getting the better of the defense in taking advantages of miscues down the field during team drills. Based on what was seen on Wednesday, the offense couldn’t make it four days in a row. The Bills just were not on the same page on that side of the ball for quite a bit of practice, especially during the final eight possessions. Wide receivers ran the wrong routes, quarterbacks missed throws, offensive linemen whiffed on assignments… all in all, it was a sub-par day for all three units of the Buffalo Bills’ offense.



OTA Day #3:


1) Some offensive line struggles
- It wasn’t the entire unit by any means, but a trio of players through the first two units had negative outcomes to a few plays on the field on Friday. Right tackle Erik Pears, backup right guard and rookie Cyril Richardson as well as backup left guard Edawn Coughman all had negative plays. For Pears, he was beat on a sack by Jarius Wynn early in the practice and then Jacquies Smith worked through him and broke up a screen attempt before it even got started. Richardson, a player that some have starting hopes for, was beat soundly by Corbin Bryant on two different occasions. Richardson appeared to be lunging and Bryant took advantage. Coughman also was beaten for a sack inside. Between the three, it wasn’t the greatest of days. Players like Cordy Glenn, Eric Wood and others had solid performances.

2) Manuel looks more relaxed
- While he’s still missing some throws, EJ Manuel doesn’t look nearly as eager to get the ball out of his hands as quickly as possible as he did around this time last year. That was a big problem of his in 2013 throughout the season, and the stress has been to try and slow down the game and not overreact to adverse situations within the pocket. Manuel was waiting on routes with receivers coming open and making some good reads, the placement of the ball just has to be better at times. He will have a relapse every once and again, like when Nickell Robey read his eyes and jumped right in front of a pass for an interception. For the most part, though, Manuel seems a bit more settled.


OTA Day #2:


3) EJ Manuel showing both progress and old tendencies
- Following the first practice of 2014, EJ Manuel hit the right notes in his press conference by admitting that he had some work to do in trusting what he is seeing on the field and allowing routes to develop a tad longer before making a decision. He exhibited that once more in the recognition of a busted coverage deep down the right sideline. Both cornerback Michael Carter and safety Jajuan Harley got their signals crossed, and wide receiver Chris Hogan was wide open on a fly route. Manuel recognized it, let it rip and hit Hogan in stride. For that positive play there was also a negative one that he must clean up. Marquise Goodwin came open about 15 yards down the field over the middle. Manuel did well to recognize him and throw to him, but the necessary footwork wasn’t there and the pass went incomplete because it was behind the right-to-left dragging Goodwin. Offensive coordinator Nathaniel Hackett immediately went to Manuel and stressed stepping all the way into the throw to increase the accuracy. All in all, Manuel had both good and bad moments to the second practice of the year.

As is becoming Manuel's MO, he throws one nice pass followed by three that are behind, below, over or away.

[YardRat]

Does anybody really expect any player on the team not to have mistakes during OTA's?

[better days]

As per usual, you are wrong.


OTA Day#6:




OTA Day #5:




OTA Day #3:




OTA Day #2:



As is becoming Manuel's MO, he throws one nice pass followed by three that are behind, below, over or away.

"For three straight practices, it seemed as though the offense was taking advantages of miscues down the field during team drills."

I notice you did not include day 1 or day 4. Why not?

On day 2 "All in all Manuel had both good & bad moments"

On day 3 Eric Pears had negative plays. Why does that not surprise me? But also on day 3 "Manuel looks more relaxed" "EJ Manuel doesn't look nearly as eager to get the ball out of his hands as quickly as possible as he did around this time last year"
"Manuel was waiting on routes with receivers coming open and making some good reads"

You bolded only the bad on day 2, and day 3. Did not include day 1 or day 4.

I knew the offense was sloppy on day 5, but did not see day 6 which was also bad, but all in all it looks like 4 good days & 2 bad days (days 5 & 6).

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Reader's Digest Condensed Version---EJ can win when he's supported by a strong defense, offensive line and running game.

Hmmm...what has the team been working on improving since Whaley and Marrone's arrival?

Is there a single QB who can't win when he's supported by literally every other facet of his team? Sanchez nearly went to two Super Bowls that way.

[better days]

Is there a single QB who can't win when he's supported by literally every other facet of his team? Sanchez nearly went to two Super Bowls that way.

It's like Lovie Smith said of the Bucs this year.........We can be a GOOD team if we play GREAT defense.

[DraftBoy]

Is there a single QB who can't win when he's supported by literally every other facet of his team? Sanchez nearly went to two Super Bowls that way.

Are we sure he's going to be supported by every other facet of this team? We still have questions at OL and WR offensively.

[YardRat]

Is there a single QB who can't win when he's supported by literally every other facet of his team? Sanchez nearly went to two Super Bowls that way.

Jeff Tuel.

Is that all I need to come up with is one?

[swiper]

"For three straight practices, it seemed as though the offense was taking advantages of miscues down the field during team drills."

I notice you did not include day 1 or day 4. Why not?

On day 2 "All in all Manuel had both good & bad moments"

On day 3 Eric Pears had negative plays. Why does that not surprise me? But also on day 3 "Manuel looks more relaxed" "EJ Manuel doesn't look nearly as eager to get the ball out of his hands as quickly as possible as he did around this time last year"
"Manuel was waiting on routes with receivers coming open and making some good reads"

You bolded only the bad on day 2, and day 3. Did not include day 1 or day 4.

I knew the offense was sloppy on day 5, but did not see day 6 which was also bad, but all in all it looks like 4 good days & 2 bad days (days 5 & 6).

Nowhere, on any day, has anyone claimed they were good as you said. Keep trying.

[TacklingDummy]

Is there a single QB who can't win when he's supported by literally every other facet of his team? Sanchez nearly went to two Super Bowls that way.no but great QBs can support a team that struggle in other areas for example RB, WR, OL, D, ST.

[better days]

Are we sure he's going to be supported by every other facet of this team? We still have questions at OL and WR offensively.

Well, there is no question in my mind.

I think both the OL & WR group will be better than last year.

[gr8slayer]

Well, there is no question in my mind.

I think both the OL & WR group will be better than last year.
Definitely agree.

[DraftBoy]

Well, there is no question in my mind.

I think both the OL & WR group will be better than last year.

That wasn't the question.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Jeff Tuel.

Is that all I need to come up with is one?

Tuel did suck, but the game losing points came after a TJ Graham fumble return.

[Woodman]

Wow, even I have them at a stellar 5-11.

- - - Updated - - -

Cleveland will be happy.

Cleveland's hearts will once again be broken ... what should have tipped you off was the name Cleveland.

[better days]

That wasn't the question.

DraftBoy: "We still have questions at OL & WR offensively"

That looks like the question according to you in post #145

[DraftBoy]

DraftBoy: "We still have questions at OL & WR offensively"

That looks like the question according to you in post #145

Well one of the two sentences ended with a question mark and one ended with a period. I'll let you give this a second shot about which one was the question and which one was the statement.

Again only two choices and your first guess wasn't right...I think you may get it this next time.

[better days]

Well one of the two sentences ended with a question mark and one ended with a period. I'll let you give this a second shot about which one was the question and which one was the statement.

Again only two choices and your first guess wasn't right...I think you may get it this next time.

You stated as a FACT that the Bills have questions at QL & WR offensively.

That was the reason for the period & not a question mark.

[DraftBoy]

You stated as a FACT that the Bills have questions at QL & WR offensively.

That was the reason for the period & not a question mark.

Yes...but you still haven't actually identified the question, nor supplied an answer to it. You simply responded to a statement.

[better days]

Yes...but you still haven't actually identified the question, nor supplied an answer to it. You simply responded to a statement.

OK Bill Clinton.

I responded to the statement that you made that the Bills have questions at OL & WR.

I never claimed to identify any question.

You think "We still have questions at OL & WR offensively."

I disagree with that statement & I do not think there is any question at all, the Bills will be BETTER on OL & at WR than they were last year.

[Skooby]

If the OL gels Manuel won't have to be much better than he was last year honestly. A better OL will open up the running lanes for FJax, Spiller, and Brown that will force the D to load the box and give Manuel and his WR's more space. Anybody who watched Manuel at FSU knows that when he has space he can put the ball anywhere he wants.

The OL is far more important than any other unit on this team and that includes the QB.

Clueless can't cover this diatribe of vomit, wow.

[Cleve]

I just went over the schedule - I predict 7-9 or 8-8. The Bills get the Vikings, Raiders, Texans, and we should be able to split at worst with Jets and Fins.

8-8 would be amazing - how long has it been since the Bills haven't had a losing record?

[gebobs]

8-8 would be amazing - how long has it been since the Bills haven't had a losing record?
10 years. Ended with that loss to the Steelers second string.

We thought that was the low point, didn't we? Since then the Bills are 49-95.

We thought the three 7-9 years under Jauron were the low point, didn't we? Since then, the Bills have averaged under 6 wins a season.

Hopefully 4-12 in '10 was the low point.

[Night Train]

I just went over the schedule - I predict 7-9 or 8-8. The Bills get the Vikings, Raiders, Texans, and we should be able to split at worst with Jets and Fins.

8-8 would be amazing - how long has it been since the Bills haven't had a losing record?

10 years - 2004

But it seems like forever. Looking forward to this season.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

That's a tad low, this is a 5-11 team.

[Skooby]

That's a tad low, this is a 5-11 team.

If EJ stays healthy, this is low.

[Ed]

3-13 is ridiculous. You have to be a truly awful team or incredibly unlucky with injuries to lose 13 games. Even a lowly team like the Jags found a way to scrape together four wins last year. The Bills have only lost 13 games once since 1985. That 2001 team had almost 40% of its cap tied up in dead money, Rob Johnson was the QB, and Gregg Williams was the HC. Our only two really good players were Eric Moulds and Sam Cowart. Cowart ruptured his achilles about 5 minutes into the very first game and was lost for the year. That was an awful team. This 2014 team may still not be a playoff team, but they're not terrible. They've got enough talent to compete and win some games.

[Typ0]

I enjoy reading about how good the team is every year before any games are played!

[trapezeus]

3-13 is ridiculous. You have to be a truly awful team or incredibly unlucky with injuries to lose 13 games. Even a lowly team like the Jags found a way to scrape together four wins last year. The Bills have only lost 13 games once since 1985. That 2001 team had almost 40% of its cap tied up in dead money, Rob Johnson was the QB, and Gregg Williams was the HC. Our only two really good players were Eric Moulds and Sam Cowart. Cowart ruptured his achilles about 5 minutes into the very first game and was lost for the year. That was an awful team. This 2014 team may still not be a playoff team, but they're not terrible. They've got enough talent to compete and win some games.

that's fairly interesting. i never thought of it that way. but i feel like the dick jauron teams were over acheiving 7-9 teams. they were pretty bad from talent, from coaching, from front office... they deserved to be 3-13 teams.

[Ed]

that's fairly interesting. i never thought of it that way. but i feel like the dick jauron teams were over acheiving 7-9 teams. they were pretty bad from talent, from coaching, from front office... they deserved to be 3-13 teams.
I don't know if I'd say they overachieved. They definitely won some games they could have lost, but they also blundered plenty of games away that they could have won. It goes both ways. To me they were just a consistently below average team. Below average coaching combined with below average talent led to sub .500 records every year. Even if people thought they were terrible, they never came close to losing 13 games. It's hard to be that bad in today's NFL.

[trapezeus]

i guess i thought those teams were much worse. i actually thought the 6-10 teams under gailey showed more life and excitement than the boring dreary losses under jauron. he's such a bad game time coach, when the season was still interesting, he lost games. then at the end when no one needed a win, he snuck one out. i will always remember the jauron years as some of the absolute worst bills football i've ever seen.

[Ed]

i guess i thought those teams were much worse. i actually thought the 6-10 teams under gailey showed more life and excitement than the boring dreary losses under jauron. he's such a bad game time coach, when the season was still interesting, he lost games. then at the end when no one needed a win, he snuck one out. i will always remember the jauron years as some of the absolute worst bills football i've ever seen.
They were probably the most boring teams for sure. Jauron always seemed way too conservative to me and lacked any kind of innovation. Maybe he was too soft also, but his players seemed to like him a lot and played hard for him. His offensive coaching hires all seemed pretty poor too. Maybe those teams should have been worse, but if nothing else they were at least consistent year in and year out.

[better days]

They were probably the most boring teams for sure. Jauron always seemed way too conservative to me and lacked any kind of innovation. Maybe he was too soft also, but his players seemed to like him a lot and played hard for him. His offensive coaching hires all seemed pretty poor too. Maybe those teams should have been worse, but if nothing else they were at least consistent year in and year out.

Gailey & Jauron together might have been able to win some games.

Jauron had a decent defense & Gailey had a decent offense.

[Skooby]

Gailey & Jauron together might have been able to win some games.

Jauron had a decent defense & Gailey had a decent offense.

Who gets the final nod ? Bend and get broke either way you play it.

[OLDSRIP]

What did Stevie do last year ??

He missed a lot of time and acted like a Diva on the field at other times.
Other than that he was ok.

[Skooby]

He missed a lot of time and acted like a Diva on the field at other times.
Other than that he was ok.

Not our problem any longer.

[better days]

If EJ stays healthy, this is low.

It is low even if EJ gets injured again.

The Bills won 6 games last year with an injured EJ.

Even if EJ misses the entire season, I think they should win more than that this year.

[Skooby]

It is low even if EJ gets injured again.

The Bills won 6 games last year with an injured EJ.

Even if EJ misses the entire season, I think they should win more than that this year.

Lets not discount the possibility of "the wheels falling off scenario", no healthy EJ and that's a possibility.

- - - Updated - - -


It is low even if EJ gets injured again.

The Bills won 6 games last year with an injured EJ.

Even if EJ misses the entire season, I think they should win more than that this year.

Lets not discount the possibility of "the wheels falling off scenario", no healthy EJ and that's a possibility.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Lets not discount the possibility of "the wheels falling off scenario", no healthy EJ and that's a possibility.

I don't think this is a 3-13 team even if Thad starts all 16 games. Tuel maybe.