Marrone [Archive] - BillsZone.com - Buffalo Bills Fan Zone

Meathead

06-07-2014, 08:28 PM

pettine is a far bigger risk than marrone as an nfl hc imo. pettine has no hc experience anywhere and his only solo dc experience was here for one season. he appears to be a good dc but its a big leap to be a first time ever hc. i can pretty much guarantee hes going to fail in cleveland, was probably going to fail anyplace he went as nfl hc for this first go round. personally i wouldnt want him as our hc even if we had the need. let him go learn the job somewhere else

criticism of hackett is fair. he has made a string of mistakes, the most glaring being not having a qb coach last season. dishonorable mention to having a fourth string rookie throw the ball on third and goal at the one after youve been stuffed the last seven straight times in short yardage goal to go when a fg would put you up by two scores late in the third quarter against the only undefeated team in the league all while a soulless red haired bastard is yelling at the tv before the snap please god do anything except throw the ball bc everybody on the defense knows its coming and will be looking to turn this game around that you have controlled up to this point please for the love of dog run into the god damn line again and kick the fg

but it appears marrone realizes he need to put pressure on hackett by hiring a former oc and qb coach in jim hostler. it speaks volumes that he hired him AFTER hackett selected his lightly experienced qb coach, which says to me marrone has delegated those decisions to hackett but doesnt like the decisions hes making. hackett appears squarely on the hot seat now and needs to get his own game in order or hostler is going to be the new oc

Meathead

06-07-2014, 08:34 PM

btw fantastic recovery by marrone getting schwartz. i not sure pettine gets a guy of that stature if hes hc instead of marrone

Skooby

06-07-2014, 08:55 PM

Anyone stupid enough to coach the Browns' mess makes me suspect of them, stupid is as .....

ParanoidAndroid

06-07-2014, 09:32 PM

Anyone stupid enough to coach the Browns' mess makes me suspect of them, stupid is as .....

There are a lot of people who might say the same about the Bills. Hell, I get confused looks when people find out I'm a fan.

Turf

06-07-2014, 09:59 PM

sudzy

06-08-2014, 05:51 AM

Why do you think they don't have the personnel to run it?

Maybe you missed the part of my post were I said
I also have to question why we are running this high tempo offense with an inexperience QB. This isn't a team that is going to win a shootout with Tom Brady. On paper it looks more like team that could keep Brady on the bench, in my opinion. Huge OL, 3 good RBs and a solid defense. EJ needs to stay healthy and build his confidence, if he's going to become a good NFL QB. More plays equal a great chance of him getting injured (something he's prone to) and making mistakes. I would run an offense that pounds the ball, controls the clock and showcases EJ's arm and the WRs speed with strategically places play action passes. If the offense goes 3 and out, the defense gets like 30 seconds of rest. Hey, if EJ makes it, in a few years, then go ahead and run high tempo. The high tempo offense is exciting, it will sell tickets, will it win anymore games? I don't think so without a solid QB. And I'm not afraid to win the boring 3-0 game.

Jry44

06-08-2014, 05:59 AM

YardRat

06-08-2014, 06:01 AM

Maybe you missed the part of my post were I said . This isn't a team that is going to win a shootout with Tom Brady. On paper it looks more like team that could keep Brady on the bench, in my opinion. Huge OL, 3 good RBs and a solid defense. EJ needs to stay healthy and build his confidence, if he's going to become a good NFL QB. More plays equal a great chance of him getting injured (something he's prone to) and making mistakes. I would run an offense that pounds the ball, controls the clock and showcases EJ's arm and the WRs speed with strategically places play action passes. If the offense goes 3 and out, the defense gets like 30 seconds of rest. Hey, if EJ makes it, in a few years, then go ahead and run high tempo. The high tempo offense is exciting, it will sell tickets, will it win anymore games? I don't think so without a solid QB. And I'm not afraid to win the boring 3-0 game.

I'm certainly not going to disagree with the offensive philosophy you laid out, I'm good with winning games 3-0 also, but if the only lack of personnel for running an uptempo offense is the QB it can also be an advantage for an inexperienced QB as long as he can communicate the play call to the rest of the team effectively.

Jry44

06-08-2014, 06:03 AM

Marrone's two biggest mistakes are choosing Hackett and his marriage to EJ. I don't see him getting over it unless he stops the blind allegiance. His understanding of basic time clock management is also an issue.
Who is the last Bills coach that understood time management?

It's only been one year, my man. One year in which we were constantly starting different quarterbacks and receivers. Not making excuses, but you would have to be pretty naive to believe that all of those injuries to the QB's and receivers, not to mention Spillers bum ankle all season, didn't have an impact on the teams offense last season.

We severely lacked depth last season, and I think Whaley has done an excellent job at establishing some this off season.

Turf

06-08-2014, 08:14 AM

It's only been one year, my man. One year in which we were constantly starting different quarterbacks and receivers. Not making excuses, but you would have to be pretty naive to believe that all of those injuries to the QB's and receivers, not to mention Spillers bum ankle all season, didn't have an impact on the teams offense last season.

We severely lacked depth last season, and I think Whaley has done an excellent job at establishing some this off season.

Yeah but you gotta admit, that lame running play where EJ fakes the QB rollout and hands off to Spiller up the middle over and over that never gained a yard, was a wasted down every series. That and his idea at the end of the Ravens game to run out the clock if need be, was to rather than punt the ball out of bounds, have EJ run around in the back field with it until the clock ran out.

Fletch

06-08-2014, 08:17 AM

Hell, I get confused looks when people find out I'm a fan.

LMAO

Fletch

06-08-2014, 08:18 AM

You can ask all of the questions you want! But if it's a silly question, you have to also be prepared to be ripped for it....

To answer the question...... Marrone is our head coach. Pettine was a coordinator hired by Marrone. It's really not that hard to figure out. In fact, Pettine wasn't even one of Clevelands first 5 choices! He was the only guy willing to take that job.

I'm guessing that he meant prior to the hiring of Marrone. You can ask him, but that's how I read the question initially.

Jry44

06-08-2014, 08:21 AM

Yeah but you gotta admit, that lame running play where EJ fakes the QB rollout and hands off to Spiller up the middle over and over that never gained a yard, was a wasted down every series. That and his idea at the end of the Ravens game to run out the clock if need be, was to rather than punt the ball out of bounds, have EJ run around in the back field with it until the clock ran out.

No, actually, I can't admit anything because no one on our offense could stay healthy. You want to point at play calling, sure..... but play calling can always be criticized for every team. There are no perfect games in regards to play calling, ever.

Again... give it another year.

Jry44

06-08-2014, 08:24 AM

I'm guessing that he meant prior to the hiring of Marrone. You can ask him, but that's how I read the question initially.
The word "retain" led me to believe otherwise...

Fletch

06-08-2014, 09:02 AM

Oh that's right, Bills fans aren't allowed to ask questions. I also have to question why we are running this high tempo offense with an inexperience QB? Seems like Marrone is going to run his system whether the team has the personnel to do it. I've ask a question, can I still be a Bills fan?

Let me explain to you message board SOP and MO.

First, you can't say anything critical about the team, until certain things become brazenly obvious that is, even if it's true, without being called a troll, not a true fan, someone that wants to see the team lose every game, having it said that you'd rather be right even if it means the team going 0-16, etc. That includes pointing out the obvious.

Come November or December when the obvious things that you pointed out or called out become obvious to those that came down on you like a ton of bricks, then when you maintain a rational mindset and discuss the realities, if you're not calling for the GM, entire coaching staff, a number of players, etc. to be brought before a kangaroo court in the parking lots to be judged and sentenced to beheading right then and there, and subsequently have their residences burned down without any time for anyone to get their families out, then there's something wrong with you.

That's pretty much how it works. I'll give you a great example.

Here's our receiving corps, or at least what will be the top-4 WRs in it. I think we can agree that if they don't cut it, that whomever the 5th is really won't make much of a difference.

Watkins: a rookie that logged most of his yards on gimmick plays and bubble screens at Clemson, plays that simply don't play well in the NFL. Did not post one game over 100 yards vs. any good pass D in his Sr. season. Played in a tremendously weak conference with little solid competition. The one great team he did play was FSU and his stats were far from memorable. Hasn't caught a single pass yet from Manuel in a game situation. Good but not prototypical size. Has as negatives in his draft profile at least two things, besides that fact that he comes from a gimmicky offense, that are critical for top starting WRs in the NFL to be solid on. First, he isn't the best route runner. Second, he didn't do a lot of middle-of-the-field work, which he'll have to unless they want him to be a one-trick pony flyer type. Even then, with Manuel throwing that's hardly the odds-on proposition.

Woods: a second year player that caught only 40 passes from Manuel last season. Was the 2nd leading WR on his collegiate team in his Sr. season. Played well as a rookie last season but has not come close to proving that he can be the go-to WR if necessary, which he will be counted on to do this season as the only starting WR that Manuel's thrown a pass to of this group, as well as being the slot WR more than likely.

Goodwin: an unaccomplished receiver at Texas that played regularly in all four seasons there but who averaged 341 yards and not even 2 TDs. He's heralded as being blazing fast, but at Texas his ypr was only 11.4, so how those two can be reconciled remains a mystery at this point I guess. He's supposed to have all of this big-play potential, but at Texas he rarely broke long pass plays and for the few he did they were against terrible defensive teams like Baylor and Mississippi. He had several big plays running the ball, 3 for rushing TDs in four seasons, but that stuff rarely works in the NFL. At 5'9", 183 he's diminutive. Last season here he did about the same as he's always done and often on misdirection or gimmick kinda plays. He's caught 17 passes from Manuel.

Mike Williams: Low-end starting WR in the NFL as history has shown us. From Syracuse which likely has a lot to do with why the team grabbed him. Has underachieved since he entered the NFL. Injuries and character issues have plagued his career. While he will almost assuredly make the team, the cost of a 6th round draft pick hardly guarantees that. Has not caught a single pass from Manuel.

Now, everyone's talking about how on paper this team is much better. The reality is that we have one rookie that hasn't even proven that he's what people say he will be. To assume that he automatically will be is ridiculous. To assume that he'll do it as a rookie with Manuel throwing is against all odds. We have two second year players, one depth WR and one other WR that now must play without the guy he lined up across from last year. Then we have Williams.

This has to be one of the youngest if not the youngest top-4 cadre of WRs in the league. With those four WRs having caught only 57 passes, total among them, from Manuel, other than teams with rookie QBs, or new QBs, this has to be near the bottom of the league in terms of QB/WR chemistry.

Last season, those four WRs caught a total of 79 passes among them. As a collective, they've caught 272 total passes in the NFL, 215 being by Williams in Tampa.

On top of that we have a QB that was as hot and cold as they make 'em last year, one that struggled through not merely one, but several injury issues last season, and one that has glaring accuracy issues (also known prior to the draft), especially on shorter throws where top QBs excel.

So now, all of this is somehow going to miraculously come together to improve upon our 6-10 record from last year? Does that sound right? It's the going thing here though. ... wait until the fall. I see regression offensively, not improvement.

Some say that the D has improved through all of our signings. What signings on D? We picked up Anthony Dixon and Chris Williams, both of the "who cares" variety. We picked up Keith Rivers who's average on a good day, Corey Graham who's pretty solidly average but nothing more, yet inconsistent in his play, and then our big hurrah is Brandon Spikes whom Belicheat let walk. Spikes is terrible in pass coverage and a liability in that way. He often came off the field on passing plays, 3rd downs in particular. He's good against the run, but this is primarily a passing league now so his liabilities outweigh his assets as such since most plays in the NFL are passing plays.

We lost Byrd, Carrington, Moats, and Stevie. Stevie was our best WR which is indisputable, and despite his judgement. Carrington and Moats are Dixon, Williams, Rivers type of players. Byrd was a 3-down player.

So, assume that the loss of Stevie is irrelevant, which I would argue, and that the others are a wash. We essentially traded a limited role MLB and a 2-down MLB for a 3-down top-notch FS. It can be argued the impact that this will have one way or the other, and I lean on the side that does not claim an improvement, but the bottom line is that it can hardly be argued that we're better to any significant extent much less one that has playoffs written on it.

That's the team that everyone says is improved. Young, inexperienced, no chemistry on O. On D, our single biggest ballhawking DB gone, a limited role MLB in.

The talk here however is that we've definitely improved significantly.

It should be interesting here if we end up 4-12 or 5-11, or worse yet, 3-13.

Fletch

06-08-2014, 09:13 AM

The word "retain" led me to believe otherwise...

Good point. I glanced over that originally. Doesn't make much sense then since no team would do that.

Having said that, I think that next season will be Marrone's last. To me he was a terrible candidate to begin with, is clearly in over his head, and hasn't shown that he's making any progress. While I respect his sticking to his guns on Manuel, doing so is going to sink both him and Whaley. Hackett's gone when Marrone is and Schwartz isn't anything special either. He's had some great talent in Detroit on D and has only underachieved with it.

John Doe

06-08-2014, 01:04 PM

Let me explain to you message board SOP and MO.

First, you can't say anything critical about the team, until certain things become brazenly obvious that is, even if it's true, without being called a troll, not a true fan, someone that wants to see the team lose every game, having it said that you'd rather be right even if it means the team going 0-16, etc. That includes pointing out the obvious.

Come November or December when the obvious things that you pointed out or called out become obvious to those that came down on you like a ton of bricks, then when you maintain a rational mindset and discuss the realities, if you're not calling for the GM, entire coaching staff, a number of players, etc. to be brought before a kangaroo court in the parking lots to be judged and sentenced to beheading right then and there, and subsequently have their residences burned down without any time for anyone to get their families out, then there's something wrong with you.

That's pretty much how it works. I'll give you a great example.

Here's our receiving corps, or at least what will be the top-4 WRs in it. I think we can agree that if they don't cut it, that whomever the 5th is really won't make much of a difference.

Watkins: a rookie that logged most of his yards on gimmick plays and bubble screens at Clemson, plays that simply don't play well in the NFL. Did not post one game over 100 yards vs. any good pass D in his Sr. season. Played in a tremendously weak conference with little solid competition. The one great team he did play was FSU and his stats were far from memorable. Hasn't caught a single pass yet from Manuel in a game situation. Good but not prototypical size. Has as negatives in his draft profile at least two things, besides that fact that he comes from a gimmicky offense, that are critical for top starting WRs in the NFL to be solid on. First, he isn't the best route runner. Second, he didn't do a lot of middle-of-the-field work, which he'll have to unless they want him to be a one-trick pony flyer type. Even then, with Manuel throwing that's hardly the odds-on proposition.

Woods: a second year player that caught only 40 passes from Manuel last season. Was the 2nd leading WR on his collegiate team in his Sr. season. Played well as a rookie last season but has not come close to proving that he can be the go-to WR if necessary, which he will be counted on to do this season as the only starting WR that Manuel's thrown a pass to of this group, as well as being the slot WR more than likely.

Goodwin: an unaccomplished receiver at Texas that played regularly in all four seasons there but who averaged 341 yards and not even 2 TDs. He's heralded as being blazing fast, but at Texas his ypr was only 11.4, so how those two can be reconciled remains a mystery at this point I guess. He's supposed to have all of this big-play potential, but at Texas he rarely broke long pass plays and for the few he did they were against terrible defensive teams like Baylor and Mississippi. He had several big plays running the ball, 3 for rushing TDs in four seasons, but that stuff rarely works in the NFL. At 5'9", 183 he's diminutive. Last season here he did about the same as he's always done and often on misdirection or gimmick kinda plays. He's caught 17 passes from Manuel.

Mike Williams: Low-end starting WR in the NFL as history has shown us. From Syracuse which likely has a lot to do with why the team grabbed him. Has underachieved since he entered the NFL. Injuries and character issues have plagued his career. While he will almost assuredly make the team, the cost of a 6th round draft pick hardly guarantees that. Has not caught a single pass from Manuel.

Now, everyone's talking about how on paper this team is much better. The reality is that we have one rookie that hasn't even proven that he's what people say he will be. To assume that he automatically will be is ridiculous. To assume that he'll do it as a rookie with Manuel throwing is against all odds. We have two second year players, one depth WR and one other WR that now must play without the guy he lined up across from last year. Then we have Williams.

This has to be one of the youngest if not the youngest top-4 cadre of WRs in the league. With those four WRs having caught only 57 passes, total among them, from Manuel, other than teams with rookie QBs, or new QBs, this has to be near the bottom of the league in terms of QB/WR chemistry.

Last season, those four WRs caught a total of 79 passes among them. As a collective, they've caught 272 total passes in the NFL, 215 being by Williams in Tampa.

On top of that we have a QB that was as hot and cold as they make 'em last year, one that struggled through not merely one, but several injury issues last season, and one that has glaring accuracy issues (also known prior to the draft), especially on shorter throws where top QBs excel.

So now, all of this is somehow going to miraculously come together to improve upon our 6-10 record from last year? Does that sound right? It's the going thing here though. ... wait until the fall. I see regression offensively, not improvement.

Some say that the D has improved through all of our signings. What signings on D? We picked up Anthony Dixon and Chris Williams, both of the "who cares" variety. We picked up Keith Rivers who's average on a good day, Corey Graham who's pretty solidly average but nothing more, yet inconsistent in his play, and then our big hurrah is Brandon Spikes whom Belicheat let walk. Spikes is terrible in pass coverage and a liability in that way. He often came off the field on passing plays, 3rd downs in particular. He's good against the run, but this is primarily a passing league now so his liabilities outweigh his assets as such since most plays in the NFL are passing plays.

We lost Byrd, Carrington, Moats, and Stevie. Stevie was our best WR which is indisputable, and despite his judgement. Carrington and Moats are Dixon, Williams, Rivers type of players. Byrd was a 3-down player.

So, assume that the loss of Stevie is irrelevant, which I would argue, and that the others are a wash. We essentially traded a limited role MLB and a 2-down MLB for a 3-down top-notch FS. It can be argued the impact that this will have one way or the other, and I lean on the side that does not claim an improvement, but the bottom line is that it can hardly be argued that we're better to any significant extent much less one that has playoffs written on it.

That's the team that everyone says is improved. Young, inexperienced, no chemistry on O. On D, our single biggest ballhawking DB gone, a limited role MLB in.

The talk here however is that we've definitely improved significantly.

It should be interesting here if we end up 4-12 or 5-11, or worse yet, 3-13.

The comments about our wide-outs are right on the mark.

Watkins has pulled off the fake-out of the century on all the NFL scouts. The only way he will ever gain a yard is on gimmick plays and he will probably never learn how to run a decent route. Why oh why did we draft this bum? Why was he rated so highly? He has no skill set what so ever except for great hands, physical size, the ability to cut on a dime, a great work ethic, and the ability to run like a half back. What a joke on Bills nation.

Mike Williams is indeed bottom of the barrel. From the second he stepped on the playing field he has so underachieved that it is a wonder he did not get drummed out of the NFL after his pathetic rookie season: 65 catches for measly 964 yards and 11 touchdowns. I know that rookie receivers are slow to catch on to the NFL, but that was absurd. I don't know why Tampa did not cut him immediately after that fiasco of a season. Any dope could predict that he would completely disappear after the Bucs picked up a true #1 in Vincent Jackson, and sure enough Williams turned in a pedestrian 65 catches for for 996 yards and 9 TDs. NFL history is littered with sad storylines of bottom end starters like this. It had to be the Syracuse connection that made the Bills give up such a high draft pick to squander on this trash.

As far as Woods and Goodwin... NFL history has shown us that rookies seldom get better, even with more playing time.

Jry44

06-08-2014, 01:39 PM

Good point. I glanced over that originally. Doesn't make much sense then since no team would do that.

Having said that, I think that next season will be Marrone's last. To me he was a terrible candidate to begin with, is clearly in over his head, and hasn't shown that he's making any progress. While I respect his sticking to his guns on Manuel, doing so is going to sink both him and Whaley. Hackett's gone when Marrone is and Schwartz isn't anything special either. He's had some great talent in Detroit on D and has only underachieved with it.

He hasn't shown to be making progress because he's only coached....1 season. There's no other season to compare his work to! Ugh.......

I'm ok with being critical, but at least try to be logical.

mightysimi

06-08-2014, 01:49 PM

stuckincincy

06-08-2014, 02:55 PM

How experienced is Foles? Seems up-tempo worked alright there.

Compare our last 14 seasons to theirs. They might have had a few more pieces in place...

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/phi/

sudzy

06-08-2014, 03:40 PM

How experienced is Foles? Seems up-tempo worked alright there.

I figured someone would bring up Philly. Yes, they went 4-2 vs the "god awful" NFC East and 6-4 vs the rest of the NFL. They did fare better then Buffalo. Maybe Chip Kelly coaches it better then Marrone and Hackett, maybe Foles ran it better then EJ. I don't know. I'm going to be curious to see how Philly does after the rest of the NFL has an offseason to scheme against it. Still doesn't mean it's the best offense for the Bills.

mightysimi

06-08-2014, 08:00 PM

Compare our last 14 seasons to theirs. They might have had a few more pieces in place...

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/phi/

The argument was the QB not the whole team but yes they have had more recent success than Buffalo.

mightysimi

06-08-2014, 08:03 PM

I figured someone would bring up Philly. Yes, they went 4-2 vs the "god awful" NFC East and 6-4 vs the rest of the NFL. They did fare better then Buffalo. Maybe Chip Kelly coaches it better then Marrone and Hackett, maybe Foles ran it better then EJ. I don't know. I'm going to be curious to see how Philly does after the rest of the NFL has an offseason to scheme against it. Still doesn't mean it's the best offense for the Bills.

Pretty sure that terrible D had something to do with the record. I may not be a football guru but I'm pretty sure 27 TD's against 2 picks is pretty good. Just pointing out that Foles had good success in that type of offence in his second year in the league. I'm not saying that Manuel will do that but it is worth mentioning that someone in a new high paced system could have success as a young QB.

BertSquirtgum

06-08-2014, 09:20 PM

I think Marrone sucks and that the Bills will be looking for a new coach when the new owner takes over.

Fletch

06-09-2014, 07:33 AM

The comments about our wide-outs are right on the mark.

Watkins has pulled off the fake-out of the century on all the NFL scouts. The only way he will ever gain a yard is on gimmick plays and he will probably never learn how to run a decent route. Why oh why did we draft this bum? Why was he rated so highly? He has no skill set what so ever except for great hands, physical size, the ability to cut on a dime, a great work ethic, and the ability to run like a half back. What a joke on Bills nation.

Mike Williams is indeed bottom of the barrel. From the second he stepped on the playing field he has so underachieved that it is a wonder he did not get drummed out of the NFL after his pathetic rookie season: 65 catches for measly 964 yards and 11 touchdowns. I know that rookie receivers are slow to catch on to the NFL, but that was absurd. I don't know why Tampa did not cut him immediately after that fiasco of a season. Any dope could predict that he would completely disappear after the Bucs picked up a true #1 in Vincent Jackson, and sure enough Williams turned in a pedestrian 65 catches for for 996 yards and 9 TDs. NFL history is littered with sad storylines of bottom end starters like this. It had to be the Syracuse connection that made the Bills give up such a high draft pick to squander on this trash.

As far as Woods and Goodwin... NFL history has shown us that rookies seldom get better, even with more playing time.

You just have to love it when people have to go back four seasons to dredge up some good points about a player. I'll leave it at that.

We'll see on Watkins. Do you believe everything you read? Do you realize that the scouts are wrong as much as they are right?

Remember Spiller's draft preview? Here, I'll help you out in remembering.

Spiller was one of the most electrifying and productive players in NCAA history. Of his 51 career touchdowns, 21 were 50 yards or longer. Has world-class speed but it's all packaged in a true football player.

All we heard was about how he was a threat to take it to the house every time he had the ball. 51 career TDs at Clemson in 4 seasons, 21 of 50+. 4 seasons in the NFL and only 18 TDs, you can count the long ones on one hand.

What happened genius?

What happened to the scouts' statements there? Just curious.

Otherwise, besides citing Williams' rookie season, four years ago now, I notice that you didn't address any of the facts or data, some of which came from scout reviews and other sources, like nfl.com. What, you pick and choose which of the scouts comments to buy?

Williams is also one wrong move away from being cut. Keeping Stevie, who at least had some chemistry with Manuel, would have been a much better move.

Fletch

06-09-2014, 07:37 AM

He hasn't shown to be making progress because he's only coached....1 season. There's no other season to compare his work to! Ugh.......

I'm ok with being critical, but at least try to be logical.

This team changed its strategy a couple of times last season. Marrone's collegiate coaching was way over hyped. They guy that replaced him, with freshman and soph QBs that suck was only a game worse than Marrone's best season there. He was in a tougher conference too last year.

No need to argue over it, Marrone's gone after next season. Some people just know what to look for and see the inconsistencies, which are marks of not knowing what he's doing. Also, his selection of Hackett tells us something too as does his and Whaley's position on Manuel.

The ones that suffer are us. These guys get paid bookoo bucks to fail like this.

Fletch

06-09-2014, 07:40 AM

OLDSRIP

06-09-2014, 11:12 AM

John Doe

06-09-2014, 04:06 PM

You just have to love it when people have to go back four seasons to dredge up some good points about a player. I'll leave it at that.

We'll see on Watkins. Do you believe everything you read? Do you realize that the scouts are wrong as much as they are right?

Remember Spiller's draft preview? Here, I'll help you out in remembering.

Spiller was one of the most electrifying and productive players in NCAA history. Of his 51 career touchdowns, 21 were 50 yards or longer. Has world-class speed but it's all packaged in a true football player.

All we heard was about how he was a threat to take it to the house every time he had the ball. 51 career TDs at Clemson in 4 seasons, 21 of 50+. 4 seasons in the NFL and only 18 TDs, you can count the long ones on one hand.

What happened genius?

What happened to the scouts' statements there? Just curious.

Otherwise, besides citing Williams' rookie season, four years ago now, I notice that you didn't address any of the facts or data, some of which came from scout reviews and other sources, like nfl.com. What, you pick and choose which of the scouts comments to buy?

Williams is also one wrong move away from being cut. Keeping Stevie, who at least had some chemistry with Manuel, would have been a much better move.

I don't know why you are getting upsetabout my post – I was in total agreement with your statement thatWilliams has under achieved since he entered the NFL. I had to goback to his rookie and third seasons to show that you were right onthe mark. Personally, I had him projected for 135 receptions, 2,000yards and 24 touchdowns per season. He did not even get half of thethose totals! That is underachievement on an unheard of scale. Whenever someone tells me that this guy has been a productive player,I will refer him to your post and watch him cry.

All of your points were insightful, butthe one that really stands out is the one about Williams having neveronce caught a pass from EJ. The homer fans on this site will mostassuredly overlook this fatal flaw in Williams game. There issomething about EJ's passes that makes it difficult if not impossibleto adjust to, catch, and retain. It may take Williams the rest ofhis career to make the transition to catching that kind of ball. Youcould see last season when Johnson and Chandler coughed up passesthat were apparently caught and secured. One can only blame it onthe fact that prior to the 2013 season they had never caught a ballfrom Manual. They were still adjusting to it late in the season!

You must not have read my post becauseI am in complete agreement with you about Watkins. His game andskill set will never translate to the pro game. I can't think ofone uber-talented wideout that has made it in the leage recently. It is all about technical route running now. Even the mostexceptional athletes needs to be perfect in their route running inorder to excel nowadays. The scouts and pundits are wrong all thetime, maybe every time. They were wrong about Spiller and thereforethe will be proven wrong about Watkins. It must be something aboutthe uniform. I think that you could make a lot of money predictingthis sort of thing.

If Watkins has played in a conferencewith more talent he would have been a laughing stock. That putridconference only had 42 players drafted by the NFL this year – whata joke for a once proud league. I will wager that just about anyother conference sent twice that many.

Fletch

06-09-2014, 04:31 PM

Not to mention Marrone did nothing to deserve being fired.

Not to entirely take your comment on a related tangent, but Marrone also did nothing that said "wow, what a great hire" either.

Lots of questions, more questions than answers from last season. I think we'll know about half a season in this year what's going on.

Both Whaley and Marrone have now hitched their wagon to Manuel and gone overboard to use this year's Draft to bolster their position as such. Watkins cost two 1st-rounders.

So if they fail, and this team doesn't improve to at least .500, I think that we need to start warming up our adios's.

Fletch

06-09-2014, 04:40 PM

I don't know why you are getting upsetabout my post – I was in total agreement with your statement thatWilliams has under achieved since he entered the NFL. I had to goback to his rookie and third seasons to show that you were right onthe mark. Personally, I had him projected for 135 receptions, 2,000yards and 24 touchdowns per season. He did not even get half of thethose totals! That is underachievement on an unheard of scale. Whenever someone tells me that this guy has been a productive player,I will refer him to your post and watch him cry.

All of your points were insightful, butthe one that really stands out is the one about Williams having neveronce caught a pass from EJ. The homer fans on this site will mostassuredly overlook this fatal flaw in Williams game. There issomething about EJ's passes that makes it difficult if not impossibleto adjust to, catch, and retain. It may take Williams the rest ofhis career to make the transition to catching that kind of ball. Youcould see last season when Johnson and Chandler coughed up passesthat were apparently caught and secured. One can only blame it onthe fact that prior to the 2013 season they had never caught a ballfrom Manual. They were still adjusting to it late in the season!

You must not have read my post becauseI am in complete agreement with you about Watkins. His game andskill set will never translate to the pro game. I can't think ofone uber-talented wideout that has made it in the leage recently. It is all about technical route running now. Even the mostexceptional athletes needs to be perfect in their route running inorder to excel nowadays. The scouts and pundits are wrong all thetime, maybe every time. They were wrong about Spiller and thereforethe will be proven wrong about Watkins. It must be something aboutthe uniform. I think that you could make a lot of money predictingthis sort of thing.

If Watkins has played in a conferencewith more talent he would have been a laughing stock. That putridconference only had 42 players drafted by the NFL this year – whata joke for a once proud league. I will wager that just about anyother conference sent twice that many.

Is this all you do, recite nonsense, and then backtrack implicitly and recant what you said de facto and skirt the issues after it's proven that you're comments were as dense as lead?

Otherwise, if brains were dynamite I'm not sure you'd have enough to blow your nose.

If you want to address the arguments, fine, but if all you're going to do is spout idiocy, don't you have something better to do with your time?

OLDSRIP

06-09-2014, 05:16 PM

Not to entirely take your comment on a related tangent, but Marrone also did nothing that said "wow, what a great hire" either.

Lots of questions, more questions than answers from last season. I think we'll know about half a season in this year what's going on.

Both Whaley and Marrone have now hitched their wagon to Manuel and gone overboard to use this year's Draft to bolster their position as such. Watkins cost two 1st-rounders.

So if they fail, and this team doesn't improve to at least .500, I think that we need to start warming up our adios's.

I can't argue with anything you said.
Time and time only will tell for sure.

Last year was a crazy year. All new coaches. Many new players. Then they had the QB problem.
once Kolb went down EJ was forced to start, we know the story.

I hope for a good season. We will see.

Fletch

06-09-2014, 05:29 PM

I can't argue with anything you said.
Time and time only will tell for sure.

Last year was a crazy year. All new coaches. Many new players. Then they had the QB problem.
once Kolb went down EJ was forced to start, we know the story.

I hope for a good season. We will see.

Agreed, I'm just not sure that it's going to be a whole lot different this season. Again, I think that everyone is underestimating the losses of Stevie and Byrd. You just can't get rid of your best DB and WR in a passing league and expect improvement. Manuel has almost no established chemistry with his receivers and they may be the youngest top-4 WRs in the league as I'm guessing that they easily are.

All we can do is hope, that's all we've had for years. I just wish the basis for hope were something better than Marrone, Hackett, Manuel, and Watkins who's a rookie WR. I'll throw Schwartz in there too and even Downing, both of whom underachieved with superior talent in Detroit.

OLDSRIP

06-09-2014, 06:08 PM

Agreed, I'm just not sure that it's going to be a whole lot different this season. Again, I think that everyone is underestimating the losses of Stevie and Byrd. You just can't get rid of your best DB and WR in a passing league and expect improvement. Manuel has almost no established chemistry with his receivers and they may be the youngest top-4 WRs in the league as I'm guessing that they easily are.

All we can do is hope, that's all we've had for years. I just wish the basis for hope were something better than Marrone, Hackett, Manuel, and Watkins who's a rookie WR. I'll throw Schwartz in there too and even Downing, both of whom underachieved with superior talent in Detroit.

I guess I'm a little more optimistic than you are.
I see a run heavy offence. I think the backs they picked up will pay off big this year.
EJ shouldn't have to be great this year. But he has to protect the ball and hit the play action game.
and his long ball has to get much better.

And a tough D. I remember plenty of Swartz defense teams being very good when he was in the Titans. Maybe he isn't a great head coach. But his teams usually were tough to score on.

Stevie, him and EJ never had any chemistry either. Both were hurt at different times in training camp and during the season. Byrd could be a big loss in the passing D For sure.

I think the young receiver core will take time to grow for sure. But look like a great bunch. Woods will need to have a big year I think to make up for Johnson leaving.

I got you on the hope thing. I have been watching this team since the beginning. They definately have to prove it to me before I'm sold.

lets hope for an exciting year with playoffs.

John Doe

06-09-2014, 06:24 PM

Is this all you do, recite nonsense, and then backtrack implicitly and recant what you said de facto and skirt the issues after it's proven that you're comments were as dense as lead?

Otherwise, if brains were dynamite I'm not sure you'd have enough to blow your nose.

If you want to address the arguments, fine, but if all you're going to do is spout idiocy, don't you have something better to do with your time?

Let me put it another way:

The reason why my posts sounded absurd is because they were in agreement with your own absurd post.

You stated that The ACC was "tremendously weak” last season. That's certainly dubious since they had 42 players drafted, second only to the SEC.

Watkins “Hasn't caught a single pass from Manual...” as if this is even some kind of point or revelation. Have you seen any tape of Watkins? What difference does it make who passes him the ball – he is going to probably catch it be it EJ, Tuel, Lewis, or Dixon. Your beloved Steve Johnson did not catch a pass from EJ before last season.

Mike Williams is “Low end” and has“underachieved since he entered the NFL.” By whose standards? Yours?
“NFL History” showed that he had a great rookie year – a point you dismiss because it did not fit your narrative. “You just have to love it when people have to go back four seasons to dredge up some good points about a player. I'll leave it at that.” Yeah – leave it at that because that counts as a season “since he entered the NFL.” By all means, don't admit your mistake – just brush it aside. Williams has had 2 good years, an average year, and a year where he tore his hamstring. That is reality and it is not“low end.”

When you discussed the lack of improvement on the defense the first thing that you mentioned was addition of Chris Williams and Dixon. These guys don't even play defense. Brush aside the acquisition of Spikes because “its primarily a passing league now” when our biggest weakness was the ability to stop the run. Maybe we should just keep stocking up on pass defenders instead of addressing our biggest deficiency.

Assume that the loss of Carrington and Moats compared to the addition of Graham, Rivers, Chris Williams, Dixon is a wash? Without even throwing Bryce Brown or Mike Williams into the mix, I find it hard to fathom since Carrington hardly even played last year. Williams is no all-pro, but he is a certainly a lot better than the starting left guards that we had last year. And not even a mention about how Rivers, Graham, and Dixon are first class special teamers as well. Oh – I forgot it a passing league now so special teams don't matter. Or that Moeaki is healthy and in the mix at tight end. Yeah,no improvement with this bunch.

We lose Byrd, Johnson, and Pettine so we are doomed. Got it.

Jry44

06-09-2014, 07:52 PM

This team changed its strategy a couple of times last season. Marrone's collegiate coaching was way over hyped. They guy that replaced him, with freshman and soph QBs that suck was only a game worse than Marrone's best season there. He was in a tougher conference too last year.

No need to argue over it, Marrone's gone after next season. Some people just know what to look for and see the inconsistencies, which are marks of not knowing what he's doing. Also, his selection of Hackett tells us something too as does his and Whaley's position on Manuel.

The ones that suffer are us. These guys get paid bookoo bucks to fail like this.

Wow man..... please tell me again why you're wasting your time posting on a message board with us minions and not working as a GM in the NFL.

As a die hard 'Cuse fan ever since I can remember, you have absolutely no idea as to what you're talking about. The players that Schaffer won with last season were MARRONES players! DM recruited them! The cupboard was so incomprehensibly bare when Marrone took over that it was ridiculous. To say that the job that Marrone did in getting the SU program back to respectability was remarkable would be a vast understatement.

Seriously though.... just do yourself a a favor and just stop. Have some logic and give Marrone a chance to at least get his style of players to fit his system before you go on saying that he will be gone after this season. There's a less than 1% chance that happens.

Mace

06-09-2014, 08:54 PM

Fletch

06-10-2014, 08:42 AM

Let me put it another way:

The reason why my posts sounded absurd is because they were in agreement with your own absurd post.

You stated that The ACC was "tremendously weak” last season. That's certainly dubious since they had 42 players drafted, second only to the SEC.

Watkins “Hasn't caught a single pass from Manual...” as if this is even some kind of point or revelation. Have you seen any tape of Watkins? What difference does it make who passes him the ball – he is going to probably catch it be it EJ, Tuel, Lewis, or Dixon. Your beloved Steve Johnson did not catch a pass from EJ before last season.

Mike Williams is “Low end” and has“underachieved since he entered the NFL.” By whose standards? Yours?
“NFL History” showed that he had a great rookie year – a point you dismiss because it did not fit your narrative. “You just have to love it when people have to go back four seasons to dredge up some good points about a player. I'll leave it at that.” Yeah – leave it at that because that counts as a season “since he entered the NFL.” By all means, don't admit your mistake – just brush it aside. Williams has had 2 good years, an average year, and a year where he tore his hamstring. That is reality and it is not“low end.”

When you discussed the lack of improvement on the defense the first thing that you mentioned was addition of Chris Williams and Dixon. These guys don't even play defense. Brush aside the acquisition of Spikes because “its primarily a passing league now” when our biggest weakness was the ability to stop the run. Maybe we should just keep stocking up on pass defenders instead of addressing our biggest deficiency.

Assume that the loss of Carrington and Moats compared to the addition of Graham, Rivers, Chris Williams, Dixon is a wash? Without even throwing Bryce Brown or Mike Williams into the mix, I find it hard to fathom since Carrington hardly even played last year. Williams is no all-pro, but he is a certainly a lot better than the starting left guards that we had last year. And not even a mention about how Rivers, Graham, and Dixon are first class special teamers as well. Oh – I forgot it a passing league now so special teams don't matter. Or that Moeaki is healthy and in the mix at tight end. Yeah,no improvement with this bunch.

We lose Byrd, Johnson, and Pettine so we are doomed. Got it.

Really? What's absurd is you dismissing factual information with mere opinion.

As to the ACC being weak, it was, relative to other years. Sorry you can't tell that. The fact that you measure the strength of an entire conference by its drafted players says a lot. The defenses in the ACC sucked besides FSU. The only other two that were ranked in the top-25 were VA Tech and Clemson, the latter of which was 25th. A lot of that also had to do

ACC fans understand this, just you. When Duke wins the Coastal division you know something's up. Well, not you, just everyone else.

It only fielded 3 top-25 teams, and besides FSU which I've repeatedly mentioned, and clearly not Clemson since we're talking about a player on that team, the only other team that finished ranked in the top-25 was Duke at 23rd. Yeah, great points. Talk about idiotic.

Think what you want. I see little sense in attempting to discuss the matter with you. Your opinion on Mike Williams alone should disqualify you from pretending to post intelligently. You cite a rookie season, claim that I'm disingenuous for dismissing that season, four years ago now, while Williams has only declined in performance since then. You really think that's irrelevant? Really?

Fletch

06-10-2014, 08:46 AM

Marrone's fatality already imho, was not having a QB coach intending to groom a project QB behind a brittle vet, while staging your program on a project QB. It was so obvious it never even occurred to me we didn't have one until the season was near over.

A pro coach familiar with the pro game and it was all on Hackett in the end ?

He's striking me as emo now, meaning to be honest, honest because he's emo. Heart is on his sleeve, should be elsewhere. This isn't going anywhere. Players will love him and do terrible. Doug, you galoot !!!! Meh.

FSU had QB coaches, some regarded as among the best. Certainly they did well last season, the season after ridding themselves of Manuel whether that's relevant or not. What is relevant is that they gave up and finally changed their system and quit trying to fix Manuel. This was known, apparently our FO and Whaley ignored it.

- - - Updated - - -

Wow man..... please tell me again why you're wasting your time posting on a message board with us minions and not working as a GM in the NFL. .

Good question. Fortunately it's not that much time.

Fletch

06-10-2014, 09:22 AM

I guess I'm a little more optimistic than you are.
I see a run heavy offence. I think the backs they picked up will pay off big this year.
EJ shouldn't have to be great this year. But he has to protect the ball and hit the play action game.
and his long ball has to get much better.

And a tough D. I remember plenty of Swartz defense teams being very good when he was in the Titans. Maybe he isn't a great head coach. But his teams usually were tough to score on.

Stevie, him and EJ never had any chemistry either. Both were hurt at different times in training camp and during the season. Byrd could be a big loss in the passing D For sure.

I think the young receiver core will take time to grow for sure. But look like a great bunch. Woods will need to have a big year I think to make up for Johnson leaving.

I got you on the hope thing. I have been watching this team since the beginning. They definately have to prove it to me before I'm sold.

lets hope for an exciting year with playoffs.

My position comes from taking the "Buffalo Bills" off of my takes and evaluating a team with the characteristics that it has as if it were any team, not necessarily my team. Most fans cannot do that. What I see is what I see. Raw and unproven WRs coupled with one issue-laden WR that's for some reason all of a sudden going to blossom and shed all of his issues here in Buffalo. Since when has that happened regularly? On the performance side it always seems that players play better elsewhere, either before they come here or after. Lynch, Fletcher, Whitner, TO, Bledsoe, Stroud, Mario, etc. Every once in a while we sign a player that was another team's trash that manages to perform to depth or low-end starting levels, but rarely if ever impact players.

As to your comments on running the ball, who's going to be doing the running? Jackson's not reliable due to age now. Spiller's only proven that he's no bell cow. Brown hasn't done anything yet, so while we can say that he'll do this or that, there's no basis for it.

It may be run heavy, but that would likely be an indication that things aren't working out well with Manuel. The modern NFL is a passing league,

We ran the third most of any team in the NFL last season. http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/team-rushing-play-percentage/2013/

Only the Seahawks and Niners ran more on a percentage basis. Not one other team had more rushing attempts than we did. How much more should we run the ball? With Jackson one year older, and given Spiller's inability to run effectively as a 3-down RB, is relying on Brown really wise?

By the way, we were one of only five teams that ran more than we passed last season. We rank third in that regard.

How much more can we run? EJ needs to develop, we're tapped out on runs.

As to EJ, those are a lot of things to correct, wouldn't you say? I mean saying that his play-action game, not to mention his simple short game, and deep balls need to improve, along with other things mentioned from last season like reading plays, is hardly saying that he's a tweak away. Those are significant issues and no shortage of them.

We'll see with Schwartz, although he had a lot of talent in Detroit and underachieved with it there. In Tennessee he also wasn't without talent.

Valid points on EJ/Stevie, but still, Stevie is the only accomplished WR that this team had. We can't argue that he's got great chemistry with Woods, Goodwin, much less any other WR. I'm not sure I'd put Williams into that category. As well, I'll be convinced that Williams makes it through the season without either an injury or some off-field issue when I see the number 16 next to games played for him at the end of the season.

Agree with you on taking time for the WRs to evolve, but that's a huge "if" for this upcoming season and more "down the road" kinda stuff. Watkins still hasn't proven that he'll be what we're hoping for either and there should be enough questions on him to cause at least a little concern. We didn't trade away next year's 1st to get a WR that's merely going to post 1,000 yards and 8 TDs. If that's all he ends up doing then the pick will have been a waste. Given what we gave away he'll have to perenially hit 1,200 yards and at least 10 TDs. I don't see that happening this season.

As to looking like a great bunch, too early imo to call that. Woods looked solid last season, but what's his ceiling? Goodwin imo has been overrated by fans ever since the team drafted him. He's also not even an accomplished WR in college, how he becomes on in the NFL is beyond me. He's a role player and imo will always be a role player.

I guess for me a huge part of the analysis is when people say that they're expecting things from players like Goodwin or Brown when neither player did what they're expecting in college much less in a limited time in the NFL. I mean what basis is there for suggesting or even hoping that a player like that all of a sudden becomes something that he's never been? Sure, it happens, but it's rare.

Take Fred Jackson, he didn't play for a big name school, but at least he put up enormous numbers at Coe College. At least that's a basis for hope. For Goodwin we're talking about a player that averaged just over 300 receiving yards and no even 2 TDs per season, but here's the kicker, his collegiate receiving average was a pedestrian 11.4 ypr. So now, here, we're expecting more?

I don't know, call me crazy, I'd love nothing more than to see Manuel loft 4,000 yards worth of balls and 25 TDs, have Watkins be the most prolific WR that this team has ever had, see Woods be a 1,000/8 WR on top of that, and have Williams be among the best 3rds in the league, and have Brown replace Jackson, who's days are numbered, but I look at the backgrounds of those players, Manuel, Marrone, Hackett and Schwartz, and I have difficulty believing that this is the crew that's going to achieve all that based on their lack of accomplishments elsewhere.

OLDSRIP

06-10-2014, 06:04 PM

My position comes from taking the "Buffalo Bills" off of my takes and evaluating a team with the characteristics that it has as if it were any team, not necessarily my team. Most fans cannot do that. What I see is what I see. Raw and unproven WRs coupled with one issue-laden WR that's for some reason all of a sudden going to blossom and shed all of his issues here in Buffalo. Since when has that happened regularly? On the performance side it always seems that players play better elsewhere, either before they come here or after. Lynch, Fletcher, Whitner, TO, Bledsoe, Stroud, Mario, etc. Every once in a while we sign a player that was another team's trash that manages to perform to depth or low-end starting levels, but rarely if ever impact players.

As to your comments on running the ball, who's going to be doing the running? Jackson's not reliable due to age now. Spiller's only proven that he's no bell cow. Brown hasn't done anything yet, so while we can say that he'll do this or that, there's no basis for it.

It may be run heavy, but that would likely be an indication that things aren't working out well with Manuel. The modern NFL is a passing league,

We ran the third most of any team in the NFL last season. http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/team-rushing-play-percentage/2013/

Only the Seahawks and Niners ran more on a percentage basis. Not one other team had more rushing attempts than we did. How much more should we run the ball? With Jackson one year older, and given Spiller's inability to run effectively as a 3-down RB, is relying on Brown really wise?

By the way, we were one of only five teams that ran more than we passed last season. We rank third in that regard.

How much more can we run? EJ needs to develop, we're tapped out on runs.

As to EJ, those are a lot of things to correct, wouldn't you say? I mean saying that his play-action game, not to mention his simple short game, and deep balls need to improve, along with other things mentioned from last season like reading plays, is hardly saying that he's a tweak away. Those are significant issues and no shortage of them.

We'll see with Schwartz, although he had a lot of talent in Detroit and underachieved with it there. In Tennessee he also wasn't without talent.

Valid points on EJ/Stevie, but still, Stevie is the only accomplished WR that this team had. We can't argue that he's got great chemistry with Woods, Goodwin, much less any other WR. I'm not sure I'd put Williams into that category. As well, I'll be convinced that Williams makes it through the season without either an injury or some off-field issue when I see the number 16 next to games played for him at the end of the season.

Agree with you on taking time for the WRs to evolve, but that's a huge "if" for this upcoming season and more "down the road" kinda stuff. Watkins still hasn't proven that he'll be what we're hoping for either and there should be enough questions on him to cause at least a little concern. We didn't trade away next year's 1st to get a WR that's merely going to post 1,000 yards and 8 TDs. If that's all he ends up doing then the pick will have been a waste. Given what we gave away he'll have to perenially hit 1,200 yards and at least 10 TDs. I don't see that happening this season.

As to looking like a great bunch, too early imo to call that. Woods looked solid last season, but what's his ceiling? Goodwin imo has been overrated by fans ever since the team drafted him. He's also not even an accomplished WR in college, how he becomes on in the NFL is beyond me. He's a role player and imo will always be a role player.

I guess for me a huge part of the analysis is when people say that they're expecting things from players like Goodwin or Brown when neither player did what they're expecting in college much less in a limited time in the NFL. I mean what basis is there for suggesting or even hoping that a player like that all of a sudden becomes something that he's never been? Sure, it happens, but it's rare.

Take Fred Jackson, he didn't play for a big name school, but at least he put up enormous numbers at Coe College. At least that's a basis for hope. For Goodwin we're talking about a player that averaged just over 300 receiving yards and no even 2 TDs per season, but here's the kicker, his collegiate receiving average was a pedestrian 11.4 ypr. So now, here, we're expecting more?

I don't know, call me crazy, I'd love nothing more than to see Manuel loft 4,000 yards worth of balls and 25 TDs, have Watkins be the most prolific WR that this team has ever had, see Woods be a 1,000/8 WR on top of that, and have Williams be among the best 3rds in the league, and have Brown replace Jackson, who's days are numbered, but I look at the backgrounds of those players, Manuel, Marrone, Hackett and Schwartz, and I have difficulty believing that this is the crew that's going to achieve all that based on their lack of accomplishments elsewhere.

I enjoyed reading your thoughts.
i think you are over thinking it all.

you may end up being right. Based on odds of the last 50 years of Bills football. You will be right.

By nature I try to look at the positives of a situation. But like I said before. They have to prove it to me.

i am just going to sit back and watch and hopefully like what I see.
If they stink again it's just another year of Bills football.

only time will tell, right?

John Doe

06-10-2014, 06:53 PM

Really? What's absurd is you dismissing factual information with mere opinion.

As to the ACC being weak, it was, relative to other years. Sorry you can't tell that. The fact that you measure the strength of an entire conference by its drafted players says a lot. The defenses in the ACC sucked besides FSU. The only other two that were ranked in the top-25 were VA Tech and Clemson, the latter of which was 25th. A lot of that also had to do

ACC fans understand this, just you. When Duke wins the Coastal division you know something's up. Well, not you, just everyone else.

It only fielded 3 top-25 teams, and besides FSU which I've repeatedly mentioned, and clearly not Clemson since we're talking about a player on that team, the only other team that finished ranked in the top-25 was Duke at 23rd. Yeah, great points. Talk about idiotic.

Think what you want. I see little sense in attempting to discuss the matter with you. Your opinion on Mike Williams alone should disqualify you from pretending to post intelligently. You cite a rookie season, claim that I'm disingenuous for dismissing that season, four years ago now, while Williams has only declined in performance since then. You really think that's irrelevant? Really?

Yeah, really.

Here are Williams' stats:

2010 65 catches 964 yards 11 TDs
2011 65 catches 771 yards 3 TDs
2012 63 catches 996 yards 9 TDs
2013 torn hamstring in game 4 - tried to play though it - coaches decided to put im on IR

His play fell off in 2011 and came right back up in 2012. His stats from 2011 and 2013 are nearly identical, hardly a pattern of decline. Your statement that "He has underachieved since he entered the NFL" is a complete falsehood. It practically begged for a fact-check that proved the failure of your point. If he produces the stats from even his worst complete year he will be a solid addition. He may or he may not, but don't tell me that the guy has been proven to be a "low end starter" because he has been plenty productive. Not an all-pro, but certainly far from "low end."

So, now the ACC is "weak compared to prior years" instead of "tremendously weak." Nice backtracking. Keep it up and you will end up in last year.

And boo hoo the ACC only managed to land 3 teams in the top 25. Well, since the SEC put 7 in the top 25 that leaves 18 spots for all of the other conferences, so it still looks like the ACC is plenty strong compared to all the other conferences outside of the SEC. The term tremendously weak is better applied to your post.

Fletch

06-11-2014, 10:15 AM

Your statement that "He has underachieved since he entered the NFL" is a complete falsehood.

You are correct on one point, he has not underachieved. I had him confused with the draft status of Mike Williams that went to Detroit 10th overall, but his draft status only as I was going off memory and did not fact check that.

You are well off on the notion that he's been anything but a low-end starter in this league today however. Factor in his non-football related issues and it hardly helps him and merely bolsters my position.

Last season he was on pace for 60-70 catches and between 600-700 yards, hardly impressive. That's because Vincent Jackson easily took his place at the team's #1 WR, even early on before Williams got hurt. Jackson actually did it the year before despite the fact that the Bucs didn't have another WR worth anything at all besides Jackson the last two seasons and not all prior to that, giving Williams every opportunity to shine.

In 2012, also with not one other notable WR on the team besides Jackson, on a team that had plenty of opportunties for garbage time passing, he still couldn't muster 1,000 yards.

To me, any starting WR that was unable to post at least 1,000 yards in any of his first four seasons cannot be said to be anything more than a low-end starter. We can agree to disagree on what the definition of "low-end starting WR" is, and no doubt that's part of our disagreement. I'll tell you what though, find for me another WR that has never posted a 1,000 yard season in the NFL that's broadly considered to be a top-tier, premier, or high-end starting WR?

Having said that, I expect Williams to post better numbers than Watkins this season, which is hardly and endorsement for Williams, rather skepticism that a rookie WR on the Bills with Manuel as QB is going to do much more than 700-800 yards and 6 TDs in a best-case season.

Woods may be Manuel's favorite target and lead the team, who knows. Again, that's even if Williams can keep his nose clean and himself injury free.

As to the ACC, any ACC fans knows damn well that without FSU that conference is second rate right now. It's been weak for years. Your arguments against that make little sense. It's chock full of mediocre teams, all but three, one of which being Clemson, had defenses that were absolutely nothing to be reckoned with.

Of the two that did, Clemson/Watkins only played one of them, with tremendously lackluster results it can be added.

While you don't think that this is relevant, the quality of defenders and defenses that Watkins faced is tremendously relevant, particularly because he played in a gimmick offense. Again, we can agree to disagree there, but go ahead genius and break out the offensive and defensive players from this past Draft, I assume that most of the top defenders came from FSU. The ACC's offensive draftees are entirely irrelevant to my point. But since this is the cornerstone of your argument, let's analyze it.

On a quick glance, the ACC fielded two first round defensive players and only one 2nd round defensive player that weren't from FSU, since you insist using the Draft as the lynchpin for your argument on the ACC. Of the three players drafted in rounds 1/2, Watkins only played against one and that wasn't even a DB and it was the 2nd rounder.

Otherwise, of your 42 accomplished draft picks, 37 were non-Clemson players, of those 37, 30 were non-FSU players.

Of those 30 ACC draftees that you're ranting about, not one played on a decently ranked pass defense besides FSU.

You impressed with that? Please say no.

Otherwise, Watkins' Tigers didn't play the three best teams in the Coastal, namely Duke, VA Tech, and Miami, nor did they play Pitt or UNC.

That reduces the ACC draftees relevant to this argument to a mere 15.

Of those, only 10 were defensive players.

Of those 10, they were from 6 teams that were ranked as such in passing D:

48th, 57th, 64th, 68th, 86th, 112th

NC State was that 48th ranked team and Watkins' game was not much better than it was vs. FSU and was his second worst game on a yards-per-catch basis and third words on a yardage basis, with FSU being the worst in both, and of FBS teams. The 2 FCS teams teams that he faced didn't even field one draft pick.

Of those 10 defensive players, 4 were drafted in rounds 5-7. Of the remaining 6, none were drafted in round 1, only 2 were DBs, both were CBs, and they were drafted in the mid-3rd and late-4th.

Of those two DBs, Dexter McDougle was considered by most to have been a huge reach in round 3.

So now, you really think that having 42 picks is in any way relevant to your argument much less supportive of it since Watkins barely played any of those picks and of the one or two that he did, they were hardly FSU's best or from any team ranked any higher in pass D last season? If they were so great, how come their pass D's weren't better?

What you think is irrelevant, and relevant, boggles the mind.

I realize that I'm probably just pissing into the wind, but most people would consider this relevant, that Watkins didn't exactly play NFL caliber talent. Forget the rest, namely that he made his reputation on bubble screens and other plays that have a low percentage of success in the NFL and on a team featuring a gimmick offense to begin with.

Also, if he's so blazing fast and great with the ball in his hands, how come his KO returns weren't anything close to impressive?

His returns were anything but even close to spectacular and his Punt returns sucked?

66 total returns in college, only 1 TD? Really? I mean I would think that a guy that's as blazing fast and has the moves that he has should easily have done what Spiller did in returns in college. Whoops!

Spiller had 81 returns and 8 TDs, one every 10 returns, contrasted with one every 66 returns for Watkins, of whom more is being said.

How does one reconcile that gap in play between Watkins' receiving game and his return game which was anything but impressive? I know how I do it, I attribute it to his having played a ridiculously weak schedule of defensive teams during his time at Clemson and on a gimmick offense featuring plays that are low percentage in the NFL. Otherwise anyone taking your side of this argument has to close that gap.

This doesn't even mention that Watkins can even not match up to the less-than-impressive numbers he posted in college, exactly like Spiller, from the same school, similar system, and same coach, does it? No, everyone knows better. The same thing can't possibly happen to Watkins. He can't possibly be overrated despite his having logged most of his numbers against competition that will be lucky to even be playing on Sundays, now or ever.

Fletch

06-11-2014, 10:35 AM

I enjoyed reading your thoughts.
i think you are over thinking it all.

you may end up being right. Based on odds of the last 50 years of Bills football. You will be right.

By nature I try to look at the positives of a situation. But like I said before. They have to prove it to me.

i am just going to sit back and watch and hopefully like what I see.
If they stink again it's just another year of Bills football.

only time will tell, right?

Thank you.

It's not about being right, or wrong. I'd love to be dead wrong.

But NFL history, particularly as it relates to collegiate history, proves many things. It's silly, ignorant, unwise, foolish, etc. to ignore those things.

Read my post prior to this. One of the biggest things that I've always said was collegiate players that don't play tough competitition are usually overrated. The fact that "they can only play who's on their schedule" does not alter that, it merely serves as an excuse. That's a correct statement, but it does not alter the underlying premise. They might very well play well against NFL caliber competition, but if they do it's usually a first. The NFL is not a high-percentage place for firsts.

One of the biggest things about Watkins in my mind, and targeting those that thought that A, he was a good pick with or without our trading away a 1st next season being irrelevant, and B, that he's going to revolutionize our offense like everyone's expecting, is how do those people reconcile the fact that his returns were not good. His few PRs sucked and his KRs certainly weren't impressive.

But moreover, all we hear is about how electrifying he is once he has the ball in his hands. I would think that a player like that would at least be able to take it to the house on more than once every 60 KRs, or certainly do better than average just over 20 yards per KR for someone with such skills, especially against a low-end schedule. 7 of the 9 ACC teams that Watkins' Tigers faced finished the season at 7-6 or worse with three of those team posting only 2, 3, or 4 wins. Against the other two teams he averaged barely over a paltry 9 yards-per-catch and only one of those teams had an excellent passing D.

Someone that thinks that Watkins is going to tear up the NFL needs to reconcile that. Forget the fact that Manuel's looking like a lost child right now.

Speaking of which, all offseason we read reports about how this or that was going to be different regarding Manuel, how he had really studied harder, worked out harder, felt so much more confidence, etc. Yet, not one report coming from OTAs suggests that he's made any progress at all, they all question whether or not he's regressed though.

John Doe

06-11-2014, 03:53 PM

You are well off on the notion that he's been anything but a low-end starter in this league today however. Factor in his non-football related issues and it hardly helps him and merely bolsters my position.

My take of Williams performance was just that - he play on the field. There is no doubt about his off-field issues, but his on-field play is not low end.

Last season he was on pace for 60-70 catches and between 600-700 yards, hardly impressive. That's because Vincent Jackson easily took his place at the team's #1 WR, even early on before Williams got hurt. Jackson actually did it the year before despite the fact that the Bucs didn't have another WR worth anything at all besides Jackson the last two seasons and not all prior to that, giving Williams every opportunity to shine.

As I stated before, Williams got injured during game 4 of last season with a torn hamstring. He sat out game 5 and tried to gut it out in a few games after that before they had to shut him down. Extrapolating his stats from that season is disingenuous at best.

In 2012, also with not one other notable WR on the team besides Jackson, on a team that had plenty of opportunties for garbage time passing, he still couldn't muster 1,000 yards.

He gained 996 yards and had 9 TD's. You are going to make a big deal about 4 yards?! Again, completely disingenuous. I don't care about your "garbage time stats' argument - it doesn't mean anything because there are no stats to back it up. From what you are saying all receivers' stats have to be readjusted for garbage time. Go ahead and run the numbers.

To me, any starting WR that was unable to post at least 1,000 yards in any of his first four seasons cannot be said to be anything more than a low-end starter. We can agree to disagree on what the definition of "low-end starting WR" is, and no doubt that's part of our disagreement. I'll tell you what though, find for me another WR that has never posted a 1,000 yard season in the NFL that's broadly considered to be a top-tier, premier, or high-end starting WR?

I don't care about the "Fletch scale" of wide receivers. We have already seen how you believe a measly 4 yards separates a "low end" receiver from "top tier, premier, or high end" and that 9 TD's does not mean anything. It's not even semantics, it's baloney. You just came up with it to try to salvage your point. I said it before - Williams is no all-pro, but low end is not appropriate either, particularly for a guy that has put up seasons with 11 and 9 touchdowns and missed that seemingly magical 1,000 yards by just 4 in one year and 36 in another.

As to the ACC, any ACC fans knows damn well that without FSU that conference is second rate right now. It's been weak for years. Your arguments against that make little sense. It's chock full of mediocre teams, all but three, one of which being Clemson, had defenses that were absolutely nothing to be reckoned with.
I applaud you for the lengthy analysis of the relative strengths and weakness of the ACC. Unfortunately it means little unless you do a similar analysis of all of the other conferences. There is no point of reference. Have at it. I would venture that most of the other conferences outside of the SEC also have their share of mediocre teams and poor pass defenses. I look forward to your conference by conference team by team analysis. I would be willing to bet that the "Fletch scale of mediocrity" is also heavily slanted to support your point.

How does one reconcile that gap in play between Watkins' receiving game and his return game which was anything but impressive? I know how I do it, I attribute it to his having played a ridiculously weak schedule of defensive teams during his time at Clemson and on a gimmick offense featuring plays that are low percentage in the NFL. Otherwise anyone taking your side of this argument has to close that gap.

Perhaps Watkins is a better receiver than kick returner. That could certainly be possible.

Mace

06-11-2014, 08:00 PM

FSU had QB coaches, some regarded as among the best. Certainly they did well last season, the season after ridding themselves of Manuel whether that's relevant or not. What is relevant is that they gave up and finally changed their system and quit trying to fix Manuel. This was known, apparently our FO and Whaley ignored it.

And that's fine. A lot of college teams have excellent coaches, but it's pretty common to read how much the game accelerates at pro level, and how it relates to mechanics different from the college level. Foot position, inches in arm position, etc. Tighter, faster, more powerful delivery, not to mention intangibles related to your specific offense, reads and such.

Yes yes, our FO and Whaley ignored it, but so did Marrone and Hackett.

Manuel wasn't so out of the box plug and play as the terrible Geno Smith was thought to be. Project QB, so we'd have Kolb (um ?) to work him in. Looks like he learned a lot from Kolb.

I sort of think it's more relevant if they had someone here to teach him besides the rookie OC, even if he hadn't had to start. Bringing in the guy who taught Thad Lewis (regarded as needing pro teaching, and regressing Stafford) just strikes me as not a good thing, no matter what Manuel may or may not have if he can last without wounding.

Great to have you aboard Mr. Schwartz ! Sure I'll hire your friend ! I need to go in my office a few moments, I need weep and come up with a good explanation for it.

Fletch

06-11-2014, 08:41 PM

My take of Williams performance was just that - he play on the field. There is no doubt about his off-field issues, but his on-field play is not low end.

I said low-end for a starter, and it is over four seasons. Again, prove me wrong and find me one other WR in the NFL that hasn't had a single season of greater than 1,000 yards in at least four that is a premium starter and we can talk. Otherwise it's just a lot of hot air and opinion on your end. Clearly we disagree as to what "low-end" for a starting WR is, but I've provided my definition whether or not you agree with it. You have not provided a definition nor a counter to my definition.

As I stated before, Williams got injured during game 4 of last season with a torn hamstring. He sat out game 5 and tried to gut it out in a few games after that before they had to shut him down. Extrapolating his stats from that season is disingenuous at best.

But extrapolating positives without any basis makes all the sense in the world. Got it.

He gained 996 yards and had 9 TD's. You are going to make a big deal about 4 yards?! Again, completely disingenuous. I don't care about your "garbage time stats' argument - it doesn't mean anything because there are no stats to back it up. From what you are saying all receivers' stats have to be readjusted for garbage time. Go ahead and run the numbers.

I don't care about the "Fletch scale" of wide receivers. We have already seen how you believe a measly 4 yards separates a "low end" receiver from "top tier, premier, or high end" and that 9 TD's does not mean anything. It's not even semantics, it's baloney. You just came up with it to try to salvage your point. I said it before - Williams is no all-pro, but low end is not appropriate either, particularly for a guy that has put up seasons with 11 and 9 touchdowns and missed that seemingly magical 1,000 yards by just 4 in one year and 36 in another.

As I said, it's not about being 4 yards shy. And what, I can't help but notice that you've conveniently stepped over the dead elephant sitting in the foyer of Williams 2nd year 771 yard, 3 TD season on 11.9 ypr.

Once again, find for me any other WR in the league that hasn't topped 1,000 yards at all in his career, and not some rookie or second year WR, and you'll prove me wrong.

I applaud you for the lengthy analysis of the relative strengths and weakness of the ACC. Unfortunately it means little unless you do a similar analysis of all of the other conferences. There is no point of reference. Have at it. I would venture that most of the other conferences outside of the SEC also have their share of mediocre teams and poor pass defenses. I look forward to your conference by conference team by team analysis. I would be willing to bet that the "Fletch scale of mediocrity" is also heavily slanted to support your point.

Once again, no facts, no independent analysis to counter, just mere speculation of what you think may or may not be the case. This discussion, if we can call it that, between you and I demonstrates analyses that separate the men from the boys. I promise you that at the end of the season you won't want to come anywhere near this thread or any other lengthy exchanges between you and I for embarrassment and shame. I promise you.

Otherwise let's wait and see. Then you can start giving us all the reasons why what your points are didn't materialize this season.

Perhaps Watkins is a better receiver than kick returner. That could certainly be possible.

Once again you miss the point entirely and counter with nonsense. I'm on the cusp of putting you on ignore.

OLDSRIP

06-12-2014, 07:38 AM

Thank you.

It's not about being right, or wrong. I'd love to be dead wrong.

But NFL history, particularly as it relates to collegiate history, proves many things. It's silly, ignorant, unwise, foolish, etc. to ignore those things.

Read my post prior to this. One of the biggest things that I've always said was collegiate players that don't play tough competitition are usually overrated. The fact that "they can only play who's on their schedule" does not alter that, it merely serves as an excuse. That's a correct statement, but it does not alter the underlying premise. They might very well play well against NFL caliber competition, but if they do it's usually a first. The NFL is not a high-percentage place for firsts.

One of the biggest things about Watkins in my mind, and targeting those that thought that A, he was a good pick with or without our trading away a 1st next season being irrelevant, and B, that he's going to revolutionize our offense like everyone's expecting, is how do those people reconcile the fact that his returns were not good. His few PRs sucked and his KRs certainly weren't impressive.

But moreover, all we hear is about how electrifying he is once he has the ball in his hands. I would think that a player like that would at least be able to take it to the house on more than once every 60 KRs, or certainly do better than average just over 20 yards per KR for someone with such skills, especially against a low-end schedule. 7 of the 9 ACC teams that Watkins' Tigers faced finished the season at 7-6 or worse with three of those team posting only 2, 3, or 4 wins. Against the other two teams he averaged barely over a paltry 9 yards-per-catch and only one of those teams had an excellent passing D.

Someone that thinks that Watkins is going to tear up the NFL needs to reconcile that. Forget the fact that Manuel's looking like a lost child right now.

Speaking of which, all offseason we read reports about how this or that was going to be different regarding Manuel, how he had really studied harder, worked out harder, felt so much more confidence, etc. Yet, not one report coming from OTAs suggests that he's made any progress at all, they all question whether or not he's regressed though.

Fletch,

You definately put a lot of thought into your posts. And you logic seems sound.

I don't watch much college ball so I don't have many opinions of incoming players.

I just hope the Bills management knows what they are doing for a change.

personally I don't worry much about these camps to much. I will wait until I see how it goes when preseason
comes around.

Of course I like to see them win. But I don't let it effect me either way.

Like I've always told my son.

"Even when the Bills were in their glory days my life didn't change.
my paychecks were the same and the bills in my mailbox keep coming,
win or lose." They never sent me any money.

So I don't put the thought into it you do.
i just hope for a good entertaining year.

About 2/3 of the Bills season since 1964 have been bad. So I am never surprised when they suck.

I have other hobbies if they get to bad to watch.

Fletch

06-12-2014, 08:00 AM

Fletch,

You definately put a lot of thought into your posts. And you logic seems sound.

I don't watch much college ball so I don't have many opinions of incoming players.

I just hope the Bills management knows what they are doing for a change.

personally I don't worry much about these camps to much. I will wait until I see how it goes when preseason
comes around.

Of course I like to see them win. But I don't let it effect me either way.

Like I've always told my son.

"Even when the Bills were in their glory days my life didn't change.
my paychecks were the same and the bills in my mailbox keep coming,
win or lose." They never sent me any money.

So I don't put the thought into it you do.
i just hope for a good entertaining year.

About 2/3 of the Bills season since 1964 have been bad. So I am never surprised when they suck.

I have other hobbies if they get to bad to watch.

Great post, I agree. Some people take the team far too seriously. I treat it as the business that they've made it these days. Want my money? Give me a product, a proven one, that I want, and I'll pay. I'm not going to pay for some cheap plastic thing that looks like it's going to fall apart the second I take it out of the package.

As to my thoughts, again, thanks, but most of that just surfaces while thinking naturally about the team, I don't go way out of my way timewise other than to dig up some supporting stats when trying to engage someone. The problem is that most others counter with nothing but emotional nonsense. It becomes difficult to engage in conversation when one side lays out a bunch of facts, facts that would readily be accepted if they referred to the Jets or Fins, while the other side merely refutes things based on opinions and isolated data that is not related to any baselines or whatnot. JohnDoe is the perfect example above. I've repeatedly asked him to provide me with the names of any other WRs that never posted a season with 1,000 or more yards that is considered anything but a low-end starting WR at best, and he can't do it. He'll cite how Williams was four yards shy one season, but frankly, 1,000 yards once in a career still is far from impressive as receiving yards come far more easily today than ever before in the NFL. I rate Stevie as a low-end starter and he posted three straight 1,000 yard seasons, although little more, and was the first Bills' WR in history to post back to back 1,000 yard seasons.

But JohnDoe grabbed that little bity piece of that argument and like a dog on a leg won't let go and won't provide the data to back up his position. Stuff like that in forums gets tiresome which is why many people don't spend time in them.

As to putting any credence into these camps, I don't either, but when all you read about a QB that was all over the map last season in terms of accuracy, is that he's even worse this season, in OTAs, without significant pressure, and playing on a field against a bunch of defensive guys that won't even be playing football come September, one can draw conclusions that this is likely not something that's all of a sudden going to rectify itself by the season opener. And if that doesn't rectify itself, how much will Watkins contribute? ... the other WRs, etc.

It's not as if the knocks on Manuel are picking up the differences between a new offense from last season's and has had difficulty working with the new OC. Something like that can easily be overlooked, accuracy issues with hardly anything on the line cannot. See the difference? Or "he's not feeling comfortable on that knee" for example. We could expect that to improve significantly because the body can heal itself tremendously in three months.

But continued glaring inaccuracy? That's not something that's going to be easily fixed and corrected if at all, particularly that he was the same way at FSU for four seasons and last year too. Think about it, there's never been anything else. So simply saying "it's early" doesn't quite cut it. Technically it's not "early," this has been the pattern since 2009 for Manuel. It was known for the Draft last season. The one that should be blamed is Whaley, but instead everyone's applauding him simply because the press says that he'll be good.

I don't spend much time here although recently I've spent some time in the morning, but I enjoy the discourse to an extent. Then I'll disappear for long stretches. As with you, if the team plays like crap, which is a given after the first few games which they usually do OK since there always seems to be enough newness on the team to "surprise" a few opponents before film begins to emerge, then I pick and choose my games to watch. I certainly won't spend a dime to watch them. Fortunately all the games are streamed.

I just hope the Bills management knows what they are doing for a change.

Well, unfortunately it would require a change, but there hasn't been a significant change. Whaley's been a known quantity for years, his selection of Manuel, on top of being a reach is teetering on the cusp of being a disaster. His subsequent reaching for Watkins in hopes of shoving the deficiencies in his selection of Manuel under the rug merely reveals desperation, poor judgment, and a complete lack of awareness of the rookie contributions of WRs with good QBs much less bad ones. Marrone is not a departure from the norm despite insistences to the contrary. Hackett certainly isn't. He's the Curtis Modkins of OCs. Schwartz doesn't strike me as being anything different either.

So I'm not quite sure what the basis for hopes are that they actually know what they're doing. I don't see any such basis.

Looks like we'll have another season whereby we'll fill our time with alternate activities and make the new ownership the highlight of our spectating season. As I've told others, if a new owner wants to keep the team here but won't replace the front office, then I don't care if the team moves or not.

John Doe

06-12-2014, 07:32 PM

I said low-end for a starter, and it is over four seasons. Again, prove me wrong and find me one other WR in the NFL that hasn't had a single season of greater than 1,000 yards in at least four that is a premium starter and we can talk. Otherwise it's just a lot of hot air and opinion on your end. Clearly we disagree as to what "low-end" for a starting WR is, but I've provided my definition whether or not you agree with it. You have not provided a definition nor a counter to my definition.

You don't get it. I reject the entire "Fletch scale" of wide receivers. It makes no sense and the labels are broad and ill-defined. Obviously you have not been paying attention so I will say it again - Williams in not an all pro, but the label "low end" does not do him justice. Its as simple as that. I am not going to make up some stupid scale like you did.

But extrapolating positives without any basis makes all the sense in the world. Got it.

Whaaa?

As I said, it's not about being 4 yards shy. And what, I can't help but notice that you've conveniently stepped over the dead elephant sitting in the foyer of Williams 2nd year 771 yard, 3 TD season on 11.9 ypr.

Again, you are not paying attention. I listed the stats of that year and later commented that I would be happy with a season comparable to it if he were to produced one for the Bills. 65 catches is nothing to sneeze at and does not deserve the label "low end." Sorry, but the "Fletch scale" is baloney.

Once again, find for me any other WR in the league that hasn't topped 1,000 yards at all in his career, and not some rookie or second year WR, and you'll prove me wrong.

Again, I don't care about the "Fletch scale." Williams stats speak for themselves and they are poorly described as "low end."

Once again, no facts, no independent analysis to counter, just mere speculation of what you think may or may not be the case. This discussion, if we can call it that, between you and I demonstrates analyses that separate the men from the boys. I promise you that at the end of the season you won't want to come anywhere near this thread or any other lengthy exchanges between you and I for embarrassment and shame. I promise you.

Otherwise let's wait and see. Then you can start giving us all the reasons why what your points are didn't materialize this season.

Oh boo hoo, that big bad Fletch is going to make me cry. I don't recall making any predictions about the season. I simply stated that your analysis stinks and so does the "Fletch scale."

Once again you miss the point entirely and counter with nonsense. I'm on the cusp of putting you on ignore.

Promises Promises. Now go cry about it in a response to another poster.

Fletch

06-13-2014, 12:20 AM

There's not a shred of anything worth discussing in your post above.

OLDSRIP

06-13-2014, 07:19 AM

Great post, I agree. Some people take the team far too seriously. I treat it as the business that they've made it these days. Want my money? Give me a product, a proven one, that I want, and I'll pay. I'm not going to pay for some cheap plastic thing that looks like it's going to fall apart the second I take it out of the package.

As to my thoughts, again, thanks, but most of that just surfaces while thinking naturally about the team, I don't go way out of my way timewise other than to dig up some supporting stats when trying to engage someone. The problem is that most others counter with nothing but emotional nonsense. It becomes difficult to engage in conversation when one side lays out a bunch of facts, facts that would readily be accepted if they referred to the Jets or Fins, while the other side merely refutes things based on opinions and isolated data that is not related to any baselines or whatnot. JohnDoe is the perfect example above. I've repeatedly asked him to provide me with the names of any other WRs that never posted a season with 1,000 or more yards that is considered anything but a low-end starting WR at best, and he can't do it. He'll cite how Williams was four yards shy one season, but frankly, 1,000 yards once in a career still is far from impressive as receiving yards come far more easily today than ever before in the NFL. I rate Stevie as a low-end starter and he posted three straight 1,000 yard seasons, although little more, and was the first Bills' WR in history to post back to back 1,000 yard seasons.

But JohnDoe grabbed that little bity piece of that argument and like a dog on a leg won't let go and won't provide the data to back up his position. Stuff like that in forums gets tiresome which is why many people don't spend time in them.

As to putting any credence into these camps, I don't either, but when all you read about a QB that was all over the map last season in terms of accuracy, is that he's even worse this season, in OTAs, without significant pressure, and playing on a field against a bunch of defensive guys that won't even be playing football come September, one can draw conclusions that this is likely not something that's all of a sudden going to rectify itself by the season opener. And if that doesn't rectify itself, how much will Watkins contribute? ... the other WRs, etc.

It's not as if the knocks on Manuel are picking up the differences between a new offense from last season's and has had difficulty working with the new OC. Something like that can easily be overlooked, accuracy issues with hardly anything on the line cannot. See the difference? Or "he's not feeling comfortable on that knee" for example. We could expect that to improve significantly because the body can heal itself tremendously in three months.

But continued glaring inaccuracy? That's not something that's going to be easily fixed and corrected if at all, particularly that he was the same way at FSU for four seasons and last year too. Think about it, there's never been anything else. So simply saying "it's early" doesn't quite cut it. Technically it's not "early," this has been the pattern since 2009 for Manuel. It was known for the Draft last season. The one that should be blamed is Whaley, but instead everyone's applauding him simply because the press says that he'll be good.

I don't spend much time here although recently I've spent some time in the morning, but I enjoy the discourse to an extent. Then I'll disappear for long stretches. As with you, if the team plays like crap, which is a given after the first few games which they usually do OK since there always seems to be enough newness on the team to "surprise" a few opponents before film begins to emerge, then I pick and choose my games to watch. I certainly won't spend a dime to watch them. Fortunately all the games are streamed.

Well, unfortunately it would require a change, but there hasn't been a significant change. Whaley's been a known quantity for years, his selection of Manuel, on top of being a reach is teetering on the cusp of being a disaster. His subsequent reaching for Watkins in hopes of shoving the deficiencies in his selection of Manuel under the rug merely reveals desperation, poor judgment, and a complete lack of awareness of the rookie contributions of WRs with good QBs much less bad ones. Marrone is not a departure from the norm despite insistences to the contrary. Hackett certainly isn't. He's the Curtis Modkins of OCs. Schwartz doesn't strike me as being anything different either.

So I'm not quite sure what the basis for hopes are that they actually know what they're doing. I don't see any such basis.

Looks like we'll have another season whereby we'll fill our time with alternate activities and make the new ownership the highlight of our spectating season. As I've told others, if a new owner wants to keep the team here but won't replace the front office, then I don't care if the team moves or not.

I agree about the people who write with 100 % emotion? They can't be part of a reasonable discussion.
I don't care if its football or politics or religion. Their mind is made up. End of discussion.

I agree it would be encouraging if all we heard was how EJ was hitting every pass in camp.
And your point about his accuracy being suspect. He had some terrible passes last year. But he also showed some very good moments. Personaly I hope he builds on the good while learning from the bad.

i think turnovers are just as important. He was pretty good about protecting the ball. Other than that game he had 4 picks I think. I hope a lot of his problems were from trying to be to careful. But you arn't wrong about him needing to improve.
At this point I choose to believe he will be much improved. You seem convinced he won't. We will probably have our answer in a few months.

I like Marrone more than you do, that's for sure. Whaley, I like his attitude and personality. The trade of next years number 1 for a receiver is definately an aggressive move. He will either be a hero or a goat based on this move.
I would be much happier if we had a known quantity at qb.
But IF Manual can come through I can see him paying off big by next season.
of course that's a big IF right now.

I just hope for an exciting season where we still want to watch in week 10 because they are still playing for something.

I don't ever want to see them move. But like you I stopped spending money on these guys long ago.
I don't like spending money on products that under perform.

Fletch

06-16-2014, 03:57 PM

I agree it would be encouraging if all we heard was how EJ was hitting every pass in camp.
And your point about his accuracy being suspect. He had some terrible passes last year. But he also showed some very good moments. Personaly I hope he builds on the good while learning from the bad.

That's the problem though, he's all over the map, he might have the biggest standard deviation in his passer ratings of any starting QB. That's not good and merely demonstrates gross inconsistency. He's been like that for five seasons, all four at FSU and last year. So there's not a lot of reason for hope there.

Fletch

06-16-2014, 04:02 PM

You don't get it. I reject the entire "Fletch scale" of wide receivers. It makes no sense and the labels are broad and ill-defined. Obviously you have not been paying attention so I will say it again - Williams in not an all pro, but the label "low end" does not do him justice. Its as simple as that. I am not going to make up some stupid scale like you did.

Whaaa?

Again, you are not paying attention. I listed the stats of that year and later commented that I would be happy with a season comparable to it if he were to produced one for the Bills. 65 catches is nothing to sneeze at and does not deserve the label "low end." Sorry, but the "Fletch scale" is baloney.

Again, I don't care about the "Fletch scale." Williams stats speak for themselves and they are poorly described as "low end."

Oh boo hoo, that big bad Fletch is going to make me cry. I don't recall making any predictions about the season. I simply stated that your analysis stinks and so does the "Fletch scale."

Promises Promises. Now go cry about it in a response to another poster.

Just curious what you think now. It didn't even take preseason or training camp, Mike Williams is already in danger of not making the roster, apparently, and looks like crap. Anytime that our worst WRs look better than anyone it's hardly a good thing.

Anyway, just curious if you've revised your take and outlook on Williams as it pertains to this season.

In case you missed it:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/06/16/mike-williams-has-work-to-do-to-earn-a-roster-spot-in-buffalo/

http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/10399/bills-fallers-from-ota-practices

OLDSRIP

06-16-2014, 04:41 PM

That's the problem though, he's all over the map, he might have the biggest standard deviation in his passer ratings of any starting QB. That's not good and merely demonstrates gross inconsistency. He's been like that for five seasons, all four at FSU and last year. So there's not a lot of reason for hope there.

all we have is hope sir.

The Jokeman

06-16-2014, 06:08 PM

What is so great about Marrone that we chose to retain him over Pettine? That's beneficial that he supposedly has a knack for getting the best out of his offensive line but what else does he bring to the table? Pettine's actions speak for himself while I'm left struggling to even come up with words to backup Marrone. Don't even get me started on OC Can't Hackett. Running an up-tempo offense with an inexperienced QB just seems asinine when we have two RBs that should be pounding the ball and eating up the clock. Maybe it's just me but I question a lot in regards to our philosophy.
Great HCs find ways to get great assistants and thus far Marrone has shown a knack for getting quality DCs. Hopefully Hosler can school kid Hackett on how to build a better NFL offense and hopefully Todd Downing can be the QB coach I was crying for us to get last offseason.

Fletch

06-16-2014, 07:07 PM

all we have is hope sir.

So true as Bills fans.

But there are two kinds of hope. Hope that's actually based on something concrete, and hope for hope's sake. Unfortunately we've been treated to the latter for decades since Polian was fired.

Fletch

06-16-2014, 07:08 PM

Great HCs find ways to get great assistants and thus far Marrone has shown a knack for getting quality DCs. Hopefully Hosler can school kid Hackett on how to build a better NFL offense and hopefully Todd Downing can be the QB coach I was crying for us to get last offseason.

Allow me to ask a question if you don't mind, given that Downing underachieved with Stafford, with Stafford regressing on his watch, what makes you think that he can do more with a lesser QB here in Manuel? I'm asking seriously, not in the least antagonistically.

John Doe

06-16-2014, 08:09 PM

Just curious what you think now. It didn't even take preseason or training camp, Mike Williams is already in danger of not making the roster, apparently, and looks like crap. Anytime that our worst WRs look better than anyone it's hardly a good thing.

Anyway, just curious if you've revised your take and outlook on Williams as it pertains to this season.

In case you missed it:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/06/16/mike-williams-has-work-to-do-to-earn-a-roster-spot-in-buffalo/

http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/10399/bills-fallers-from-ota-practices

These 2 articles are really the same thing - Mike Rodak and someone quoting Mike Rodak.

Now, let's look at what he said:

Williams didn't stand out in OTAs and seeing him in action, there isn't a particular skill that he brings to the table that is different from the rest of the receiver group.

This may be true. Williams is not known as a speedster, which leaves route running, catching the football, and blocking. "The rest of the receiver group" also has these skills in one degree or another. He does not go on to say to what degree they possess these skills (except for Hogan).

If Watkins and Robert Woods (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/15880/robert-woods?ex_cid=null) become fixtures on the outside and Chris Hogan (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/14402/chris-hogan?ex_cid=null) can continue to contribute in the slot, Williams starts to slide down the depth chart.

Well, this flies in the face of what Marone said last week regarding why they traded Johnson and what Woods role would be:
"We felt very comfortable with him being able to play the slot and be very successful there," coach Doug Marrone (http://www.nfl.com/player/dougmarrone/2520180/profile) said of Woods, per The Buffalo News (http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/bills-nfl/bills-believe-woods-can-fill-stevies-shoes-in-the-slot-20140531).

Maybe Marone knows more about what the offensive plans are than Rodak.

The Bills will keep Marquise Goodwin (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/15839/marquise-goodwin?ex_cid=null) and Marcus Easley (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/13224/marcus-easley?ex_cid=null) on their final roster, so Williams will have to fight Hogan and T.J. Graham (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/14920/tj-graham) for the final spot. He could change my opinion in minicamp or early in training camp, but for right now I wouldn't call his spot on the team a sure bet.

Goodwin brings great speed to the table, something that Marone is very big on. Easely? Well, since Easley had not had full participation in the OTAs due to knee rehab, one must reasonably figure that, if his spot on the team is secure, then it must be on the basis of special teams play last season. It certainly cannot be for his lifetime stats of 2 receptions for 13 yards. The special teams coverage was not so great last season, and Easely was one of the few bright spots. Special teams coverage was a point of emphasis in this past off-season. The Bills acquired 3 guys that are know for special teams play: Anthony Dixon, Corey Graham, and Keith Rivers. All of them have clearly defined roles to go along with special teams: Dixon is a short yardage specialist, Graham can play a number of positions in defensive backfield, and Rivers will see time at linebacker. So far, Easely has shown to be a one-dimensional player and that does not bode all that well for him, especially since he is coming off of a knee injury.

I do not think that Easley's spot on the roster is as secure as Rodak would like to think.

So far, the reports about Hogan from the OTA's have been great. Williams is a proven commodity with 3 productive seasons to show for himself. If Hogan turns out to be even better than Williams, then we really have something special going on there and I would not be happier to see it. Think about it: Hogan comes out of nowhere and is better that a vet who has the following stats:

2010 65 catches 964 yards 11 TDs
2011 65 catches 771 yards 3 TDs
2012 63 catches 996 yards 9 TDs

Has Williams regressed to the point that a career scrub like Hogan is better? I guess that it is possible. Maybe the the torn hamstring that Williams suffered lasts season is a career ender - although there is no indication from camp that he is hobbled. One thing is for sure, Williams has been very productive in the NFL and no one can take his past performance away from him.

My guess is that once the pads come on, Williams will win the starting outside receiver spot opposite Watkins and Woods will be in the slot. Hogan may make the team if he keeps up his current play with the pads on.

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