EJ's first day at Minicamp

[Skooby]

<!-- begin inline 1 --><!--INLINE MUG-->http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/headshots/nfl/players/full/15803.png&w=65&h=90&scale=crop&background=0xcccccc&transparent=false
Manuel
<!--END INLINE MUG--><!-- end inline 1 -->Segment 1:
--Option hand-off to C.J. Spiller (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/13203/cj-spiller)
--Fumbled snap (Manuel dives on ball)
--Shovel pass to Robert Woods (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/15880/robert-woods?ex_cid=null)
--False start penalty
--Defensive offsides penalty

Segment 2:
--Completion to Chris Gragg (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/15940/chris-gragg?ex_cid=null) in right flat on a Manuel rollout
--Fumble (botched hand-off)
--Completion to Woods along left sideline (gain of 15-20 yards)
--Hand-off to Ronnie Wingo (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/16242/ronnie-wingo?ex_cid=null)

Segment 3:
--Incompletion to Sammy Watkins (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/16725/sammy-watkins?ex_cid=null) left side (ball thrown behind receiver)
--Manuel scramble for no gain
--Dropped catch by Tony Moeaki (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/13289/tony-moeaki?ex_cid=null) across middle
--Incompletion to Woods right side
--Hand-off to Bryce Brown (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/15092/bryce-brown?ex_cid=null)

Segment 4:
--Interception by Deon Broomfield (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/17305/deon-broomfield?ex_cid=null) (intended for Watkins on deep sideline pattern, underthrown into double coverage)
--Manuel QB keeper left side
--Completion to Watkins short right
--Defensive offsides penalty
--Hand-off to Anthony Dixon (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/13212/anthony-dixon?ex_cid=null)

Segment 5:
--Dropped catch by Woods deep left side
--Hand-off to Spiller
--Sack
--Hand-off to Fred Jackson (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/10195/fred-jackson?ex_cid=null)
--Completion to Moeaki down left seam

Segment 6:
--Hand-off to Dixon
--Hand-off to Dixon
--Hand-off to Brown
--Completion to Brown on designed screen pass

http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/10489/tracking-ej-manuel-in-bills-minicamp

[Night Train]

June

[Skooby]

June

June 2013 / June 2014.....same as it ever was.

[Night Train]

June 2013 / June 2014.....same as it ever was.

:deadhorse

[Skooby]

:deadhorse

I just have to look who's posting to know if there's a Homer post waiting for me.

[GreedoII]

Didn't like the pick last year and still don't like it. They felt the need to draft a QB because of the pressure and failures. Too bad all the QBs were garbage last year. Now they are stuck with him until they are forced to pick another one in the 2nd rd next year and he will be bad too...ugh...

[BillsImpossible]

First day of minicamp folks. It was 90 degrees and humid as hell.

Minicamp is a joke. Every player is thinking to themselves, "don't get injured before training camp."

Manuel and the entire offense including the rookies are being given open access to the entire playbook. Mistakes are going to happen.

Muscle memory and repetition. The light will soon go on for EJ Manuel and when it does it's going to be like Lite-Bright in Buffalo.

[better days]

DOOMED !!!

[The Jokeman]

Didn't like the pick last year and still don't like it. They felt the need to draft a QB because of the pressure and failures. Too bad all the QBs were garbage last year. Now they are stuck with him until they are forced to pick another one in the 2nd rd next year and he will be bad too...ugh...

4 of Manuel's INTs last year came in one game. One thing with Manuel is he wasn't as reckless as say Geno Smith was with the ball. Which to me is a sign of a good QB. The biggest concern for me and Manuel was his inability to stay healthy and some of his slow starts in games. Yet if you toss his injuries aside and prorate his numbers over a full 16 game schedule I think he played above average for a rookie. Time will tell but considering he wasn't even supposed to see the field last year but was forced to when Kolb got hurt I think we have a bright future.

[Fletch]

June 2013 / June 2014.....same as it ever was.

But it'll all be different in November, right?

[Skooby]

But it'll all be different in November, right?

Sure, with whoever is physically able to perform.

[Fletch]

4 of Manuel's INTs last year came in one game. One thing with Manuel is he wasn't as reckless as say Geno Smith was with the ball. Which to me is a sign of a good QB. The biggest concern for me and Manuel was his inability to stay healthy and some of his slow starts in games. Yet if you toss his injuries aside and prorate his numbers over a full 16 game schedule I think he played above average for a rookie. Time will tell but considering he wasn't even supposed to see the field last year but was forced to when Kolb got hurt I think we have a bright future.

The biggest concern for me was his inability to put anything even remotely close to 4 quarters of solid football together. By my recollection the best he did was 2 quarters.

That's obviously inadequate in the NFL.

[The Jokeman]

The biggest concern for me was his inability to put anything even remotely close to 4 quarters of solid football together. By my recollection the best he did was 2 quarters.

That's obviously inadequate in the NFL.

and again he was a rookie last year that by all accounts was supposed to stay on the bench but forced to start because of injury and he himself came off an injury all considered I think EJ did good. Was it enough to say he's our long term answer? Nope but saw sparks that you look for but he has to show improved play this year before I'm anointing him the solution to our QB woes.

[TacklingDummy]

Great, he looks like shLt against our scrubs.

And we don't have a 1st round pick to replace him next year.

Just friggin great.

[Skooby]

and again he was a rookie last year that by all accounts was supposed to stay on the bench but forced to start because of injury and he himself came off an injury all considered I think EJ did good. Was it enough to say he's our long term answer? Nope but saw sparks that you look for but he has to show improved play this year before I'm anointing him the solution to our QB woes.

He's a rookie last season, now he has a new playbook & then we'll hear about the tough break. 14 years of tough breaks / excuses.

[BillsImpossible]

Great, he looks like shLt against our scrubs.

And we don't have a 1st round pick to replace him next year.

Just friggin great.

It's going to be okay, bro. Just step off the ledge. Manuel is going to be good to go come September. Step back and take a deep breath. Everything is going to be fine. If the Bills need a 1st round draft pick to replace him next year, Whaley can always trade the 2016 #1, but I really do not think that will be necessary.

Holy crap, you guys got your panties in a huge bunch over EJ Manuel's first day at minicamp.

Have a beer, lighten up and enjoy the weather.

[BillsImpossible]

and again he was a rookie last year that by all accounts was supposed to stay on the bench but forced to start because of injury and he himself came off an injury all considered I think EJ did good. Was it enough to say he's our long term answer? Nope but saw sparks that you look for but he has to show improved play this year before I'm anointing him the solution to our QB woes.

You are totally right. EJ wasn't supposed to be the starter last year. Kolb slipped on a mat and then suffered a concussion in a meaningless preseason game.

I wouldn't be surprised if Marrone and Whaley thought it would be best for Kolb to be the starter in 2013.

Manuel definitely showed sparks. He started 10 games, won 4 and should have won 5....all on 1 leg.

Manuel was injured before his rookie season even started.

[GingerP]

It really is all how you look at it. Yeah, you could say Manuel is struggling in OTA's, but you can also say the defense looks great!

[BillsImpossible]

Cheers to GingerP!

[ServoBillieves]

Deon Broomfield for MVP

[Skooby]

It's going to be okay, bro. Just step off the ledge. Manuel is going to be good to go come September. Step back and take a deep breath. Everything is going to be fine. If the Bills need a 1st round draft pick to replace him next year, Whaley can always trade the 2016 #1, but I really do not think that will be necessary.

Holy crap, you guys got your panties in a huge bunch over EJ Manuel's first day at minicamp.

Have a beer, lighten up and enjoy the weather.

Good advice.

[BertSquirtgum]

EJ stanks

[DraftBoy]

No context so its impossible to know anything from this. What Rodak says is an underthrow or overthrow could of easily been a wrong route or timing being off. People are looking for reasons to be down on EJ now.

[Fletch]

and again he was a rookie last year that by all accounts was supposed to stay on the bench but forced to start because of injury and he himself came off an injury all considered I think EJ did good. Was it enough to say he's our long term answer? Nope but saw sparks that you look for but he has to show improved play this year before I'm anointing him the solution to our QB woes.

Say what? Was supposed to stay on the bench? What, you go to sleep and wake up in 1982? Sorry, that's not a luxury that 1st-round QBs have anymore in today's NFL.

The rest is obvious, but most other QBs "show sparks," that's meaningless. Point being that some here are talking about him as if he's a shoe-in to develop nicely. There's no evidence for that either. He is, factually, about as inconsistent as a rookie's ever been, which should be far more concerning than anything else is reassuring, particularly when we look at what his weaknesses are and realize that he struggled with the same exact weaknesses throughout his time at FSU, and to the extent that the coaching staff gave up on him and changed (dumbed down) their system instead.

Question for you, since he's had the same weaknesses for five seasons now through college and his rookie season in the NFL, what is your hope that that's going to change this season? Let me rephrase that, FSU had some top notch coaching and the competition was far easier for Manuel, and they couldn't do anything with him in that regard, and last year it was pretty much the same as all he could do was put up a good quarter or two here or there, so what makes you think that things are going to be any different this year? Besides simply saying that we'll have to wait and see or that he has new coaching or whatever, things that have never seemed to help us here anyway.

As for me and many others, I'm not seeing it. I think that Whaley foolishly reached for Manuel and bit off a lot more than he could chew in terms of taking on Manuel as a project of sorts in that way. Right now there isn't any evidence to the contrary in my mind. Of course we'll have to "wait and see," that's how things work, but I see no basis for anyone saying that he'll be fine this season. There's no history there to support that notion.

Making any sense here?

[Night Train]

But it'll all be different in November, right?

Nope. The crying here is 24/7/365.

I'll wait until actual games are played. Not while they are working on a playbook in June.

[Fletch]

By the way, McGloin "showed sparks" too. He had a better TD%, a comparable rating and TD/INT ratio, almost a full yard better YPA. He wasn't sacked at anything close to the same rate. Which brings up another point, it seems that no one's even brought up the fact that Manuel gets sacked at the same rate the Bledsoe did, isn't that relevant, especially for a QB that's supposed to be so mobile? Anyway, the same exact things can be said about McGloin at Oakland. Do all the people thinking that Manuel's going to step it up this season think the same about McGloin?

The exact same things can be said about Weeden, he shows sparks too. His rookie season was pretty much a carbon copy of Manuel's on a per-game basis.

Jake Locker's 2nd season was pretty much identical to Manuel's also, and Locker had the luxury of sitting for a season. He showed sparks too.

Same with Ponder.

Is everyone that's talking about Manuel saying the same things about them? Or would they? It's semi-rhetorical, but you can see the point. Finding one or two, or a few isolated positives amidst a long pattern of inability to adapt, glaring consistency issues, well documented inability to be coached up, etc., is not overcome by "showing sparks" or putting up a quarter or two of good play as the best that he can do.

I think that for a 16th overall pick you expect much more. The problem is that he never should have been a 16th overall pick, he should have been at most a 45th or so overall pick. Then the expectations wouldn't be so lofty. Just because Whaley reached doesn't make him a true 1st-round talent. We have a history of reaching (Manuel, Spiller, Maybin, McKelvin, Whitner, McCargo) over the last ten years, and of overpaying players (Fitzpatrick, Mark Anderson, Stevie, IMO Aaron Williams this offseason, Stroud, TO, Dockery, Kelsay to name a few) under the assumption that if we draft them high or pay them enough that the level of play will follow. It's idiotic. Just because Whaley decided to draft Manuel in the 1st round doesn't mean that he was a 1st-round talent and few draftniks thought that he was. It was almost a universal opinion that we reached in a big way for Manuel. So it's not wise to expect 1st-round results from a 2nd or later round prospect.

[Fletch]

Nope. The crying here is 24/7/365.

I'll wait until actual games are played. Not while they are working on a playbook in June.

Some people are just discussing in a civil manner, others are crying, leaving those that are discussing to walk the minefield of crybabies.

You want to see crying, come back in November, the ones that you imply are not crying will be bawling up a firestorm then.

[Ginger Vitis]

By the way, McGloin "showed sparks" too. He had a better TD%, a comparable rating and TD/INT ratio, almost a full yard better YPA. He wasn't sacked at anything close to the same rate. Which brings up another point, it seems that no one's even brought up the fact that Manuel gets sacked at the same rate the Bledsoe did, isn't that relevant, especially for a QB that's supposed to be so mobile? Anyway, the same exact things can be said about McGloin at Oakland. Do all the people thinking that Manuel's going to step it up this season think the same about McGloin?

The exact same things can be said about Weeden, he shows sparks too. His rookie season was pretty much a carbon copy of Manuel's on a per-game basis.

Jake Locker's 2nd season was pretty much identical to Manuel's also, and Locker had the luxury of sitting for a season. He showed sparks too.

Same with Ponder.

Is everyone that's talking about Manuel saying the same things about them? Or would they? It's semi-rhetorical, but you can see the point. Finding one or two, or a few isolated positives amidst a long pattern of inability to adapt, glaring consistency issues, well documented inability to be coached up, etc., is not overcome by "showing sparks" or putting up a quarter or two of good play as the best that he can do.

I think that for a 16th overall pick you expect much more. The problem is that he never should have been a 16th overall pick, he should have been at most a 45th or so overall pick. Then the expectations wouldn't be so lofty. Just because Whaley reached doesn't make him a true 1st-round talent. We have a history of reaching (Manuel, Spiller, Maybin, McKelvin, Whitner, McCargo) over the last ten years, and of overpaying players (Fitzpatrick, Mark Anderson, Stevie, IMO Aaron Williams this offseason, Stroud, TO, Dockery, Kelsay to name a few) under the assumption that if we draft them high or pay them enough that the level of play will follow. It's idiotic. Just because Whaley decided to draft Manuel in the 1st round doesn't mean that he was a 1st-round talent and few draftniks thought that he was. It was almost a universal opinion that we reached in a big way for Manuel. So it's not wise to expect 1st-round results from a 2nd or later round prospect.


Terrell Owens wasn't overpaid..6.5 million for 1 year Stevie Johnson wasn't overpaid either.. 19.5 million guaranteed and 24 million for the 1st 3 years of his deal for a guy who had 3 straight 1000 yard seasons

[Skooby]

Terrell Owens wasn't overpaid..6.5 million for 1 year Stevie Johnson wasn't overpaid either.. 19.5 million guaranteed and 24 million for the 1st 3 years of his deal for a guy who had 3 straight 1000 yard seasons

Stevie isn't here anymore because he wasn't that great, get over it.

[mayotm]

The over analysis (positve and negative) during practices and pre-season games is completely moronic.

[OpIv37]

Like I said before, there is no reason to get too excited or too upset over what happens in shorts in June.

That being said, I'm never encouraged by seeing young players who should be evolving continuing to struggle in the same ways. EJ didn't fix these things over the course of last season. He didn't fix them from January til now? Yet somehow he's supposed to fix them between now and Sept? I suppose it's possible- just doesn't seem likely.

[Bill Cody]

I think that for a 16th overall pick you expect much more. The problem is that he never should have been a 16th overall pick, he should have been at most a 45th or so overall pick. Then the expectations wouldn't be so lofty. Just because Whaley reached doesn't make him a true 1st-round talent. .

Expectations can be high or low, fans can pump him up or trash him, in the end it will be decided by Manuel on the field. You can say he was over drafted and he was. We needed a QB and we wanted the pick of a weak litter. That is not important in the big scheme of things. Whether he develops is all that is important.

Manuel could very easily by a Rob Johnson like tease, someone who never really makes it but has occasional blips of brilliance. Or he could gain from experience and put the package of tools he has together, he's still a VERY inexperienced player. It will be one or the other. Whoever wants to claim they already know he's hopeless are just setting themselves up for misery. If he does suck they're miserable and if he shows signs of progress they'll feel the need to tamp it down when he has a bad game- sounds like fun to me. How about this: you really don't know so how about we just hope for the best? Crazy idea?

[Bill Cody]

Like I said before, there is no reason to get too excited or too upset over what happens in shorts in June.

That being said, I'm never encouraged by seeing young players who should be evolving continuing to struggle in the same ways. EJ didn't fix these things over the course of last season. He didn't fix them from January til now? Yet somehow he's supposed to fix them between now and Sept? I suppose it's possible- just doesn't seem likely.

What doesn't seem likely is that he would fix much of anything by not playing in real NFL games. Not reading a playbook, not working out, not working on drills, not in practice, not in OTA's, not in mini camp, not in camp, not in pre season. In games with real bullets flying. NFL QB is like parachuting- you can get real good at folding the chute but it's not quite the same as jumping out of the plane. Anyone that thinks Manuel is going to make nice linear progress doesn't understand how raw he is. The first thing he has to do is stay on the field. That's critical. After that? Divide the season into thirds. If he can go C-B-A we might have something. Or not. Until then? Pour some cold ones.

[kishoph]

No context so its impossible to know anything from this. What Rodak says is an underthrow or overthrow could of easily been a wrong route or timing being off. People are looking for reasons to be down on EJ now.


To me it seems like there's a little bias coming thru in Rodak's reporting, on incompletions, he's sure to find fault in Manuel, citing things like "ball thrown behind the receiver" and "under thrown into double coverage" while on the complete passes, it's more like meh, he completed a pass. Read Joe Buscaglia's report and he points out that the passes Manuel was connecting on were not just not short dump offs and also he looked poised throwing to his TE's. Most importantly Buscaglia remind readers that this is June and there are many practices to get things back in order.

http://www.wgr550.com/pages/9034669.php?pid=409122

[Night Train]

The over analysis (positve and negative) during practices and pre-season games is completely moronic.

:bf1:

[Ginger Vitis]

Stevie isn't here anymore because he wasn't that great, get over it.

You dont have to be great to average 7 to 8 million dollars a year in todays NFL just above average or good..ie Levitre

[Fletch]

Terrell Owens wasn't overpaid..6.5 million for 1 year Stevie Johnson wasn't overpaid either.. 19.5 million guaranteed and 24 million for the 1st 3 years of his deal for a guy who had 3 straight 1000 yard seasons

OK, whatever. For a 36-year old WR who's days were clearly over I respectfully disagree.

As to Stevie, I guess it depends upon what one is arguing. If one is arguing that he's gone then he wasn't worth it. But in this case he was. I get all that.

Just defer to the lengthy list of the others then and disregard those.

Good job at skipping over the main argument though and not addressing it. One of the first rules of engagement in distracting from the original point is to create tangents.

[Fletch]

Anyone that thinks Manuel is going to make nice linear progress doesn't understand how raw he is. The first thing he has to do is stay on the field. That's critical. After that? Divide the season into thirds. If he can go C-B-A we might have something. Or not. Until then? Pour some cold ones.

The first part of that speaks against what Whaley said both this season and last in drafting Manuel and then Watkins. It doesn't jibe that we have this issue, and that as you correctly say that Manuel was a project in essence, that he would make the contributions that Whaley & Co. told us he would last season, including staying on the field which was among them with critics citing his injury-proneness, nor that Watkins is going to provide the kind of play that Whaley & Co. spent to get him and which will be necessary to justify that pick to propel us into the playoffs, as Whaley has stated.

There's a huge gap between the promises and the present realities.

[Fletch]

To me it seems like there's a little bias coming thru in Rodak's reporting, on incompletions, he's sure to find fault in Manuel, citing things like "ball thrown behind the receiver" and "under thrown into double coverage" while on the complete passes, it's more like meh, he completed a pass. Read Joe Buscaglia's report and he points out that the passes Manuel was connecting on were not just not short dump offs and also he looked poised throwing to his TE's. Most importantly Buscaglia remind readers that this is June and there are many practices to get things back in order.

http://www.wgr550.com/pages/9034669.php?pid=409122

The key word is progress, thus far he doesn't seem to have made any. QBs quite often regress in their second years, many never to recover.

There has to be progress. There are practices left, but many is relative. Many may not be enough given all of Manuel's issues. Four years wasn't enough for the FSU coaching staff, and it's a fair shake to say that the were better than what we have in place here. Surely the competition for Manuel at FSU was a fraction of what it is here.

[Fletch]

You dont have to be great to average 7 to 8 million dollars a year in todays NFL just above average or good..ie Levitre

For 7/8M teams expect an impact player. I wouldn't say that Stevie was impact, just good. He was solid, but you couldn't count on him to win games much less have the discipline not to cost the team games. Having said that, he was still our senior and best WR before he was traded. We see how Williams is working out, he can't even outplay Easley in practice.

- - - Updated - - -


You dont have to be great to average 7 to 8 million dollars a year in todays NFL just above average or good..ie Levitre

For 7/8M teams expect an impact player. I wouldn't say that Stevie was impact, just good. He was solid, but you couldn't count on him to win games much less have the discipline not to cost the team games. Having said that, he was still our senior and best WR before he was traded. We see how Williams is working out, he can't even outplay Easley in practice.

[better days]

Say what? Was supposed to stay on the bench? What, you go to sleep and wake up in 1982? Sorry, that's not a luxury that 1st-round QBs have anymore in today's NFL.

The rest is obvious, but most other QBs "show sparks," that's meaningless. Point being that some here are talking about him as if he's a shoe-in to develop nicely. There's no evidence for that either. He is, factually, about as inconsistent as a rookie's ever been, which should be far more concerning than anything else is reassuring, particularly when we look at what his weaknesses are and realize that he struggled with the same exact weaknesses throughout his time at FSU, and to the extent that the coaching staff gave up on him and changed (dumbed down) their system instead.

Question for you, since he's had the same weaknesses for five seasons now through college and his rookie season in the NFL, what is your hope that that's going to change this season? Let me rephrase that, FSU had some top notch coaching and the competition was far easier for Manuel, and they couldn't do anything with him in that regard, and last year it was pretty much the same as all he could do was put up a good quarter or two here or there, so what makes you think that things are going to be any different this year? Besides simply saying that we'll have to wait and see or that he has new coaching or whatever, things that have never seemed to help us here anyway.

As for me and many others, I'm not seeing it. I think that Whaley foolishly reached for Manuel and bit off a lot more than he could chew in terms of taking on Manuel as a project of sorts in that way. Right now there isn't any evidence to the contrary in my mind. Of course we'll have to "wait and see," that's how things work, but I see no basis for anyone saying that he'll be fine this season. There's no history there to support that notion.

Making any sense here?

QB Blake Bortles was the third pick in this draft.

Do you expect him to start week one for the Jags?

[Mr. Miyagi]

Didn't like the pick last year and still don't like it. They felt the need to draft a QB because of the pressure and failures. Too bad all the QBs were garbage last year. Now they are stuck with him until they are forced to pick another one in the 2nd rd next year and he will be bad too...ugh...
Would you have waited until this year? Who would you have drafted? Bortles? Manziel? Bridgewater? Carr? All of them don't look that inviting either.

[Mike]

Would you have waited until this year? Who would you have drafted? Bortles? Manziel? Bridgewater? Carr? All of them don't look that inviting either.

I think each if them are considered far better prospects in 2014 than EJ was considered in 2013. There was one writer who compared this years QB class to last year's class and EJ didn't fare to well.

To put things in perspective, EJ was not even best rookie QB last year, Mike Glennon was and inspite of this he's now a backup who was almost trades on draft day. I expect more from Bridgewater and Manziel.

[Skooby]

I think each if them are considered far better prospects in 2014 than EJ was considered in 2013. There was one writer who compared this years QB class to last year's class and EJ didn't fare to well.

To put things in perspective, EJ was not even best rookie QB last year, Mike Glennon was and inspite of this he's now a backup who was almost trades on draft day. I expect more from Bridgewater and Manziel.

It's difficult to see why we drafted EJ on several levels, he couldn't stay healthy in college & it continued in the NFL with him being injured 3 times last season. We also have bet on him staying healthy in 2014 without addressing the QB position at all for the just in case, loading up on WR / the O-line to help him. Talk about betting on the long shot, geez.

These unbiased camp reports of poor QB play are disheartening to say the least, we have a QB that can't perform when healthy & can't stay healthy. 50-1 shot this guy remains a starter after this season, anywhere in the NFL.

[jills]

Relax it's just June, then it will be just training camp, then it will be just preseason, then it will be just his second season, excuses, excuses, excuses.

[TedMock]

So, if your charting him he's 8/11 (73%) with a pick. Two drops don't count against him when evaluating. Drops assume the throw was on target. If it wasn't then it shouldn't be considered a drop. I'm just going off what we have. What we have doesn't give me much in either direction from a passing standpoint. The botched snap and botched handoff are what bothers me. I just don't know who was at fault for those. Exchanges need to be as natural as blinking, so QB, OC and RB need to figure out who missed on those.

[better days]

I think each if them are considered far better prospects in 2014 than EJ was considered in 2013. There was one writer who compared this years QB class to last year's class and EJ didn't fare to well.

To put things in perspective, EJ was not even best rookie QB last year, Mike Glennon was and inspite of this he's now a backup who was almost trades on draft day. I expect more from Bridgewater and Manziel.

Lovie Smith has said Glennon is the Bucs QB of the future.

He was NOT almost traded on draft day.

He was not on the trade block at all.

[Bill Cody]

The first part of that speaks against what Whaley said both this season and last in drafting Manuel and then Watkins. It doesn't jibe that we have this issue, and that as you correctly say that Manuel was a project in essence, that he would make the contributions that Whaley & Co. told us he would last season, including staying on the field which was among them with critics citing his injury-proneness, nor that Watkins is going to provide the kind of play that Whaley & Co. spent to get him and which will be necessary to justify that pick to propel us into the playoffs, as Whaley has stated.

There's a huge gap between the promises and the present realities.

Ok but who really cares about all that? At the end of the day there will be plenty of blame to go around if Manuel busts. If he hits will it really matter that it took longer than some expected or that he was drafted earlier than some think he deserved? Take off the critics hat and enjoy the ride.

[Yasgur's Farm]

It's difficult to see why we drafted EJ on several levels, he couldn't stay healthy in college & it continued in the NFL with him being injured 3 times last season. We also have bet on him staying healthy in 2014 without addressing the QB position at all for the just in case, loading up on WR / the O-line to help him. Talk about betting on the long shot, geez.

These unbiased camp reports of poor QB play are disheartening to say the least, we have a QB that can't perform when healthy & can't stay healthy. 50-1 shot this guy remains a starter after this season, anywhere in the NFL.This is the thing that really bugs me... Please, please, please, please provide a link that supports this college injury history claim... The only 2 things I could find is that he missed 1 game - Clemson - due to a shoulder injury... And he led a comeback inspite of s broken bone in his leg.

Please read the following and twist these facts as well...


All-ACC (Second Team)
Coaches All-ACC (Second Team)
Phil Steele Postseason All-ACC (Second Team)
Unitas Golden Arm Award Finalist
Maxwell Award Semifinalist
Davey O'Brien Award Semifinalist
Under Armour Senior Bowl Selection
2012: Senior quarterback who finished his career ranking as one of the most productive at his position in Florida State history...led the Seminoles to a 25-6 record as a starter - the third-most wins in program history - and became just the second quarterback in FBS history to win four straight bowl games, joining former West Virginia QB Pat White...also went 16-3 in his career against ACC opponents...FSU's all-time leader in completion percentage (66.9), which ties for second in ACC history...ranks among top five Seminole quarterbacks all-time for passing yards (7,736, 3rd), total offense (8,563, 3rd), completions (600, 4th) and attempts (897, 5th), despite only two seasons as the full-time starter...also tied for seventh all-time with 47 career TD passes and tied for ninth all-time with five 300-yard passing games...enjoyed his most productive season in 2012, completing 263-of-387 attempts for 3,392 yards and 23 touchdowns with only 10 interceptions... served as an integral part of the 2012 FSU offense which will go down in FSU history as the most productive ever racking up a school record 6,591 yards which surpassed the 2000 team for the most yards...capped off his career leading FSU to 534 yards of total offense which was the sixth game of over 500 yards of total offense in 2012...ranked second in the ACC and 14th nationally in passing efficiency (156.0) in 2012 and his career total of 150.4 ranks second all-time in the ACC...became the first Seminole quarterback since Charlie Ward to pass for 300 yards and rush for 100 with 380 and 102, respectively, in FSU's 49-37 win over No. 10 Clemson which earned him his first of two ACC Player of the Week honors...calmly led the Seminoles back from a 14-point third quarter deficit against the Tigers, highlighted by his 29-yard strike to Rodney Smith that gave the `Noles their first lead at 35-31 late in third quarter...threw for a career-high 439 yards and four TD's in a 27-of-34 performance against Boston College as he earned ACC Player of the Week honors for the second time...came up huge with his first game-winning TD pass on FSU's final drive against Virginia Tech when he hit Rashad Greene on a slant for a 39-yard scoring play with 40 second remaining in a 28-22 victory...eclipsed 200 passing yards eight times this season to go along with seven multiple TD pass games...contributed 310 rushing yards and four TD's to the Seminoles' running game, which ranked second in the ACC averaging 205.9 yards per game...named one of four team captains and the most valuable player on offense for the second straight year at the team's annual banquet.
2011: Led FSU to nine wins in his first full-year as a starter to move to 13-4 all-time as the Seminoles' starting quarterback...became the most accurate QB in FSU history as far as career completion percentage (66.1) after completing 203-of-311 passes (65.3 percent) in 2011...also threw for 2,666 yards and 18 touchdowns with just eight interceptions...ranked 18th nationally and second in the ACC in pass efficiency (151.24) to move his career efficiency to 146.10 - the third-best in ACC history behind only former Seminole Chris Weinke (151.15) and former Georgia Tech star Joe Hamilton (148.19)...ranked fourth in the ACC in total offense (234.8)...threw multiple TD passes in six games...eclipsed 250 yards passing in five games and had three straight games (Duke, Maryland and NC State) where he passed for 200+ yards in the first half alone...ended the season throwing 121 passes without an interception which covered the final five games as FSU went 4-1 during the stretch...finished second on the team with four rushing TDs with all four coming in the last seven games...posted career-bests in yards (329), attempts (35) and touchdowns (four) in the second game of the year versus Charleston Southern...injured his left shoulder during the Oklahoma game and sat out the loss to Clemson and the start of the Wake Forest game as well...returned with 1:48 remaining in the first half at Wake Forest, promptly leading FSU to a score...passed for 286 yards and two scores at Wake Forest in an FSU loss...completed 9-of-14 passes for 239 yards against the Duke, compiling three completions of at least 50 yards...threw for two touchdowns and ran for two more in the win against the Blue Devils...notched his second career 300-yard game came against NC State (321 yards), as he set a career-best mark for completions with 25...helped rally the Seminoles to an 18-14 win over Notre Dame in the Champs Sports Bowl completing 20-of-31 passes for 249 yards and two touchdowns...selected as the winner of the Bob Crenshaw Award, one of two recipients of the leadership award for offense, most valuable player on offense and one of the team's permanent captains at the team's annual banquet.
2010: Built on his stint as a four-game starter in 2009, making 10 appearances with starts against Clemson and Virginia Tech in the ACC Championship game...came on in relief in the second quarter of the Chick-fil-A Bowl and helped guide the `Noles to a 26-17 win over South Carolina, which included a 7-yard TD pass to Taiwan Easterling with just over five minutes to play to cap off a 13-play, 63-yard drive which proved to be the game-clinching moment...led FSU a 4-2 record as the starter, including what amounted to an elimination game victory over Clemson while filling in for senior Christian Ponder...led the Seminoles in completion percentage (69.9) and passing efficiency (153.25)...ran for a career-high 71 yards and a touchdown against Clemson in a 16-13 win, eclipsing his previous high of 70 yards in his 2009 Gator Bowl MVP performance against West Virginia...also passed for 210 yards in the win over the Tigers, helping him earn ACC Offensive Back of the Week honors...passed for a career-high 288 yards (23-31) in the ACC Championship game loss to Virginia Tech... helped run the final 7:35 off the clock against Florida, rushing for 27 yards in the 31-7 Seminole win...passed for 861 yards and four TDs and added 170 rushing yards and one TD...named to the All-ACC Academic football team.
2009: Thrust into the starting role when Christian Ponder suffered a season-ending injury late in the Clemson game...posted a 3-1 record as the starter, capped by his MVP performance in FSU's Gator Bowl victory over West Virginia...rallied the Seminoles from a 14-3 deficit against the Mountaineers by completing 17-of-24 pass attempts for 189 yards and rushed for 70 yards on 14 carries...Manuel's 2-yard TD run with under nine minutes to play gave the `Noles a 30-21 lead...completed 75 percent of his passes (15-of-20) in his first career start - a win at Wake Forest - earning ACC Rookie of the Week honors for his effort...led the Seminoles to points on the first five scoring drives in his first career start...guided the `Noles to a bowl-clinching 29-26 win over Maryland by overcoming three interceptions...Manuel directed his first career fourth quarter rally, scrambling for 35 yards on the first two plays to set up Lonnie Pryor's game-winning TD run with 1:14 to play...appeared in seven games, including four starts...his 196 rushing yards ranked third on the team...completed just over 65 percent of his pass attempts for 817 yards...selected to the ACC All-Academic football team...missed the 2009 spring season with a broken index finger suffered on the first day of practice.
2008: Redshirt season...earned scout team MVP honors for the offense.
PERSONAL: Member of the Seminole Student Boosters and two-time member of the ACC All-Academic football team...rated the No. 2 quarterback in the country as a high school senior by multiple recruiting outlets...earned Parade All-American honors and was a member of the PrepStar Dream Team...participated in the Under Armour All-Star game...accounted for nearly 7,400 yards and 68 touchdowns in his high school career...earned All-Tidewater district honors and was a Group AAA second-team All-State selection...chose FSU over LSU, Oregon, Tennessee and Alabama, among others...born March 19, 1990.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Nuthin' but crickets.

Oh... And I found that he did have a minor ankle sprain in the 2012 preseason that kept him out of a Thursday scrimmage.

[TacklingDummy]

QB Blake Bortles was the third pick in this draft.

Do you expect him to start week one for the Jags?
Yes, what do they have to lose?

[Fletch]

Ok but who really cares about all that? At the end of the day there will be plenty of blame to go around if Manuel busts. If he hits will it really matter that it took longer than some expected or that he was drafted earlier than some think he deserved? Take off the critics hat and enjoy the ride.

You should, as a fan. I don't keep track of everyone, but are you one of those that supports Whaley and thinks that he's a good GM? I'm not.

But if you are, then Whaley disagrees with the statement of yours that I commented on. You two disagree on how long it might take Manuel to get up to speed. If you recall, Whaley had high hopes for Manuel last season for as foolish as it was.

Don't take issue with me on it, take it up with him. You're the one that said that Manuel's was a project.

You said: "Anyone that thinks Manuel is going to make nice linear progress doesn't understand how raw he is. The first thing he has to do is stay on the field."

That's what I was responding to, now you say who cares? You should.

If what you said is true, and I couldn't agree more, then Whaley doesn't know what he's talking about re: Manuel, which would not be a good thing to have a GM like that, which IMO is the case.

To me, unlike everyone here, it's not about blame, it's about what's going to happen and whether those entrusted with running the team need to be replaced. I don't want to sit here and be able to point fingers at the end of the season, I want competent leadership and management.

Other than that, what we're left with is discussing the odds and probabilities of things happening, like the league's youngest corps of WRs leading us to a winning season much less the playoffs, which I think is ridiculous. I just posted in another thread how Cleveland's WRs look like gems next to ours, but all everyone's talking about is that Manziel has no one to throw to. Well if he doesn't have anyone to throw to, Manuel definitely doesn't have anyone to throw to either. The rookie Watkins isn't going to carry this team like that.

All we can do is discuss, we have absolutely no control over the fools that run this team.

[better days]

Yes, what do they have to lose?

Games.

[better days]

And you can expect to see Chad Henne start for the Jags on opening day.

[kishoph]

Nuthin' but crickets.

Oh... And I found that he did have a minor ankle sprain in the 2012 preseason that kept him out of a Thursday scrimmage.

"Injury prone".

[Skooby]

Nuthin' but crickets.



Lets all ignore the obvious, here are 3 recent events related to NFL paced play:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000231078/article/ej-manuel-out-for-bills-preseason-with-knee-injury

http://www.sbnation.com/fantasy/2013/10/20/4853786/ej-manuel-injury-fantasy-football-status-bills

http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=buffalo-bills&id=5416&src=desktop

[Yasgur's Farm]

Skooby... This has ZERO to do with your claim that he was injury prone in college. You use that argument constantly to embellish on a 1 year sample size... AND IT'S NOT TRUE!!

So, you and yours should stop propagating untruths in an effort to prove your point. If you need to rely on that, your argument is simply weak... And your credibility is lacking.

[Skooby]

Skooby... This has ZERO to do with your claim that he was injury prone in college. You use that argument constantly to embellish on a 1 year sample size... AND IT'S NOT TRUE!!

So, you and yours should stop propagating untruths in an effort to prove your point. If you need to rely on that, your argument is simply weak... And your credibility is lacking.

I found shoulder & ankle injuries that were mentioned but he wasn't as injury prone to miss games in college as I thought, in the NFL he was very injury prone last season. He got hurt in the beginning, middle & end of last season. Relying on him to not get hurt this season seems like a huge gamble by the Bills, it's really risky.

[better days]

I found shoulder & ankle injuries that were mentioned but he wasn't as injury prone to miss games in college as I thought, in the NFL he was very injury prone last season. He got hurt in the beginning, middle & end of last season. Relying on him to not get hurt this season seems like a huge gamble by the Bills, it's really risky.

Well, the Lions QB, Matt Stafford had serious injuries his first two years in the NFL, but has been fine since then.

[Yasgur's Farm]

I found shoulder & ankle injuries that were mentioned but he wasn't as injury prone to miss games in college as I thought, in the NFL he was very injury prone last season. He got hurt in the beginning, middle & end of last season. Relying on him to not get hurt this season seems like a huge gamble by the Bills, it's really risky.I can live with facts... Seems like we can count on you to remove "injury prone in college" from your argument.

[bdutton]

Is Trent Edwards available?

[Fletch]

Is Trent Edwards available?

If he is we should sign him.

He's poised.

[The Jokeman]

Say what? Was supposed to stay on the bench? What, you go to sleep and wake up in 1982? Sorry, that's not a luxury that 1st-round QBs have anymore in today's NFL.

The rest is obvious, but most other QBs "show sparks," that's meaningless. Point being that some here are talking about him as if he's a shoe-in to develop nicely. There's no evidence for that either. He is, factually, about as inconsistent as a rookie's ever been, which should be far more concerning than anything else is reassuring, particularly when we look at what his weaknesses are and realize that he struggled with the same exact weaknesses throughout his time at FSU, and to the extent that the coaching staff gave up on him and changed (dumbed down) their system instead.

Question for you, since he's had the same weaknesses for five seasons now through college and his rookie season in the NFL, what is your hope that that's going to change this season? Let me rephrase that, FSU had some top notch coaching and the competition was far easier for Manuel, and they couldn't do anything with him in that regard, and last year it was pretty much the same as all he could do was put up a good quarter or two here or there, so what makes you think that things are going to be any different this year? Besides simply saying that we'll have to wait and see or that he has new coaching or whatever, things that have never seemed to help us here anyway.

As for me and many others, I'm not seeing it. I think that Whaley foolishly reached for Manuel and bit off a lot more than he could chew in terms of taking on Manuel as a project of sorts in that way. Right now there isn't any evidence to the contrary in my mind. Of course we'll have to "wait and see," that's how things work, but I see no basis for anyone saying that he'll be fine this season. There's no history there to support that notion.

Making any sense here?

I agree Maneul was a reach but he still has the skill set to develop into an above average starter, some pre draft reports even feel he could be a franchise QB. I say he was set to sit because prior to Kolb's injury it sounded like to me that the Bills were going to ease EJ into the lineup maybe have Kolb start and then if and when he failed give the reigns to EJ. In terms of him being weak at FSU, true he didn't pull a Jamesis Winston but he still did pretty well including winning 4 Bowl games which is no small feat. I think people forget pre Luck, RGIII Wilson that most 1st Round QBs performed like Tannehill in their rookie years which is what EJ did and considering both were mid 1st round picks I think we should use Tannehill as a good QB to compare EJ's success/failures too.

[Skooby]

I can live with facts... Seems like we can count on you to remove "injury prone in college" from your argument.

EJ's College injuries should not be mentioned in any reasonable poster's arguments.

[Fletch]

I agree Maneul was a reach but he still has the skill set to develop into an above average starter, some pre draft reports even feel he could be a franchise QB. I say he was set to sit because prior to Kolb's injury it sounded like to me that the Bills were going to ease EJ into the lineup maybe have Kolb start and then if and when he failed give the reigns to EJ. In terms of him being weak at FSU, true he didn't pull a Jamesis Winston but he still did pretty well including winning 4 Bowl games which is no small feat. I think people forget pre Luck, RGIII Wilson that most 1st Round QBs performed like Tannehill in their rookie years which is what EJ did and considering both were mid 1st round picks I think we should use Tannehill as a good QB to compare EJ's success/failures too.

I've been through this with others, the reason for FSU's success in bowl games was primarily due to their rushing game and D. Manuel averaged like 1 TD and right around 200 yards passing in those games. The opponents really weren't all that great either. No top-20 Ds or anything. Hardly the lynchpin of their success. I'd say that it was more like he didn't lose them the game.

I'm curious what those few draft people would say now, a year after the draft, and when he's still struggling with the same issues that plagued him at FSU. Sure, he was no Winston, no one will be, but he was hardly a stalwart of consistency either.

The Bills may have eased him into the role, but they had no plans of sitting him for any significant length of time despite their rhetoric about competition at the position. Unless you draft a QB among the first 10 picks, you always want a QB to think he's got to earn the job.

Either way, for now he's gotta prove that the issues that have plagued him for five seasons here and at FSU are correctable sometime very soon. I think we'll know by midseason what that status is. If he's not improving by then, I have no reason why anyone would anticipate that he will at any time down the road. 6 years is an awfully long time to be trying to iron out the same old issues. Being in the NFL doesn't make it easier.

- - - Updated - - -


EJ's College injuries should not be mentioned in any reasonable poster's arguments.

But his multiple injuries as a rookie should be fair game. Couple that with the thought that if they happen again, there's not much hope that he'll ever finish 16 games.

[Skooby]

I've been through this with others, the reason for FSU's success in bowl games was primarily due to their rushing game and D. Manuel averaged like 1 TD and right around 200 yards passing in those games. The opponents really weren't all that great either. No top-20 Ds or anything. Hardly the lynchpin of their success. I'd say that it was more like he didn't lose them the game.

I'm curious what those few draft people would say now, a year after the draft, and when he's still struggling with the same issues that plagued him at FSU. Sure, he was no Winston, no one will be, but he was hardly a stalwart of consistency either.

The Bills may have eased him into the role, but they had no plans of sitting him for any significant length of time despite their rhetoric about competition at the position. Unless you draft a QB among the first 10 picks, you always want a QB to think he's got to earn the job.

Either way, for now he's gotta prove that the issues that have plagued him for five seasons here and at FSU are correctable sometime very soon. I think we'll know by midseason what that status is. If he's not improving by then, I have no reason why anyone would anticipate that he will at any time down the road. 6 years is an awfully long time to be trying to iron out the same old issues. Being in the NFL doesn't make it easier.

- - - Updated - - -



But his multiple injuries as a rookie should be fair game. Couple that with the thought that if they happen again, there's not much hope that he'll ever finish 16 games.

His NFL rookie injuries are beyond troubling, they're alarming. Other QB's will noted with having injuries early in their career & turning it around but there we're 3 separate / distinct knee injuries. It's hard to fathom a mobile QB on 2 bad knees, it eliminated part of his allure.

[better days]

His NFL rookie injuries are beyond troubling, they're alarming. Other QB's will noted with having injuries early in their career & turning it around but there we're 3 separate / distinct knee injuries. It's hard to fathom a mobile QB on 2 bad knees, it eliminated part of his allure.

Well, all his knee injuries were MINOR.

Nothing that will affect him long term.

[Skooby]

Well, all his knee injuries were MINOR.

Nothing that will affect him long term.

Sounds great, put up your ZB's here if you believe it that strongly:

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/224212-I-d-be-willing-to-bet-that-EJ-gets-some-type-of-injury-this-season

[The Jokeman]

I've been through this with others, the reason for FSU's success in bowl games was primarily due to their rushing game and D. Manuel averaged like 1 TD and right around 200 yards passing in those games. The opponents really weren't all that great either. No top-20 Ds or anything. Hardly the lynchpin of their success. I'd say that it was more like he didn't lose them the game.

I'm curious what those few draft people would say now, a year after the draft, and when he's still struggling with the same issues that plagued him at FSU. Sure, he was no Winston, no one will be, but he was hardly a stalwart of consistency either.

The Bills may have eased him into the role, but they had no plans of sitting him for any significant length of time despite their rhetoric about competition at the position. Unless you draft a QB among the first 10 picks, you always want a QB to think he's got to earn the job.

Either way, for now he's gotta prove that the issues that have plagued him for five seasons here and at FSU are correctable sometime very soon. I think we'll know by midseason what that status is. If he's not improving by then, I have no reason why anyone would anticipate that he will at any time down the road. 6 years is an awfully long time to be trying to iron out the same old issues. Being in the NFL doesn't make it easier.

- - - Updated - - -



But his multiple injuries as a rookie should be fair game. Couple that with the thought that if they happen again, there's not much hope that he'll ever finish 16 games.

Russell Wilson averaged 210 yards passing and 1.63 passing TDs per game last season. The year Ben Roethlisberger won his Super Bowl he averaged 206 yards passing and threw an average 1.06 TDs per game. Heck Tom Brady won his first Super Bowl he tossed for 189.53 yards per game with 1.2 TDs per game. All of these guys won Super Bowls and weren't top 10 picks. For those that failed to see EJ improved as the season wore on look back at what he did last year after the Steelers game. He had above average games against the Jets and Falcons yes his next game against Tampa was his worst but then followed up with another strong game against Jacksonville. For those keeping track EJ passed for 197 yards per game with 1.1 passing TDs per game. Again I think people fail to realize just how untalented we were last year in certain parts of the team and yet we still almost finished with a 0.500 with a rookie QB.

[mayotm]

Sounds great, put up your ZB's here if you believe it that strongly:

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/224212-I-d-be-willing-to-bet-that-EJ-gets-some-type-of-injury-this-season
It takes huge balls to bet fake money.

[Skooby]

It takes huge balls to bet fake money.

Huge!!!!!!!!

[swiper]

By Tom D'Angelo (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/staff/tom-dangelo/)Palm Beach Post Staff Writer
TALLAHASSEE —
EJ Manuel would rather not have to prove his toughness on the field when it comes to playing through injuries. But that’s how Florida State’s senior quarterback was forced to survive in his first season as a full-time starter last year.

Manuel is healthy for the first time in nearly a year — despite not playing in Thursday’s scrimmage because of a minor ankle sprain — and would like to keep it that way, as he’s taking steps to stay on the field. Coach Jimbo Fisher said Thursday that Manuel’s injury would not have kept him out of a regular-season game.

“I’m not thinking about it this year,” Manuel said. “I feel healthy right now. Knowing I can get the ball out a lot faster and don’t have to take sacks or run or make plays with my feet all the time, knowing I can still do it and then get down.

“Some of those times if I just got the ball out quicker and knew my reads better, it would have helped me a lot.”

Florida State’s quarterbacks were sacked 41 times last year, eighth-most in the country on a per game average. Manuel’s woes started in the third game of the season when he separated his left shoulder against Oklahoma after taking off with the ball. He didn’t feel completely right until the Champs Sports Bowl, but then he fractured the fibula in his left leg during FSU’s victory over Notre Dame and played nearly the entire second half with the broken bone.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/sports/college-football/florida-state-quarterback-ej-manuel-hopes-better-d/nRDBZ/


Manuel (http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-football/players/36085/e-j-manuel) took a hit right in the helmet in the fourth quarter against Florida, with the ball flying free and the Gators taking over. Of more importance, Manuel was down on the field for a significant spell, with trainers coming out and assisting him off the field.

As the Gators retook the lead, Manuel was still circled by trainers on the bench. Backup Clint Trickett (http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-football/players/114265/clint-trickett) has taken over for the starter, as ABC reports Manuel's still undergoing concussion tests.



Trickett has 32 attempts worth of experience this year, almost all of them in mopup duty. He got worthwhile reps last year, playing the better part of three games (including Oklahoma and Clemson) after Manuel was hurt. He finished with a 160.83 passer rating and nine touchdowns to four interceptions last year.

Manuel has not had his best game, with four turnovers to his name already, but the Noles would still be hurting minus their senior quarterback. We'll wait to hear what the official diagnosis is.

http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2012/11/24/3686776/ej-manuel-injury-fsu-florida

Separated Shoulder
Fractured Fibula
broken ankle
Hit to the head
3 knee injuries

Yeah. Ok. He's not injury prone.

And it appears that Clint Trickett (who?), Manuel's back-up, looked much better running the same offense.

But don't let the facts cloud your judgement.

[Yasgur's Farm]

1) Since when is a slightly sprained ankle called "broken"
2) Hmmm... I forgot... Only injury prone players take hits to the head in football.

Nobody's denying the 3 injuries last season... What I confronted is the untruth concerning his college injuries.

Bottom line... The truth if you will... EJ missed 1 game, and 1 intersquad scrimmage in his entire college career.

As for the fractured bone in his leg... He led the team to a comeback win and never missed a game.

All of these things were covered in my previous posts if you bothered to read them.

But hey... Feel free to call slightly sprained ankle a broken ankle if you like.

[BertSquirtgum]

The Bills should trade EJ for Tom Brady.

[swiper]

I stand corrected on the ankle sprain.

[better days]

Sounds great, put up your ZB's here if you believe it that strongly:

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/224212-I-d-be-willing-to-bet-that-EJ-gets-some-type-of-injury-this-season

What is the bet?

What are the odds?

[Skooby]

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/sports/college-football/florida-state-quarterback-ej-manuel-hopes-better-d/nRDBZ/



http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2012/11/24/3686776/ej-manuel-injury-fsu-florida

Separated Shoulder
Fractured Fibula
broken ankle
Hit to the head
3 knee injuries

Yeah. Ok. He's not injury prone.

And it appears that Clint Trickett (who?), Manuel's back-up, looked much better running the same offense.

But don't let the facts cloud your judgement.

3 knee injuries concerned me much more than his college tweaks, he didn't miss many games like in the NFL.

[Skooby]

What is the bet?

What are the odds?

Figure it out, he misses one regular season game this season then I win of whatever you bet. I'm giving 2.5 to 1 odds that he misses a game, so you bet 10,000 ZB's & he plays in every regular season game you get 25,000 ZB's from me. If he misses one game, you give up 10,000 ZB's (using 10,000 bet at 2.5:1).

[GreedoII]

Would you have waited until this year? Who would you have drafted? Bortles? Manziel? Bridgewater? Carr? All of them don't look that inviting either.

Perhaps Bortles but not so high as JAX. They still be in the crapper this year too until the once in a generation QB comes again. I say keep picking a QB until you get it right every year. Why not?

[better days]

Figure it out, he misses one regular season game this season then I win of whatever you bet. I'm giving 2.5 to 1 odds that he misses a game, so you bet 10,000 ZB's & he plays in every regular season game you get 25,000 ZB's from me. If he misses one game, you give up 10,000 ZB's (using 10,000 bet at 2.5:1).

Well, missing one game is not being injury prone.

And those are poor odds for that bet.

I would bet you more than 4 QB's miss one game.

but I would want better odds.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Actually, those are pretty good odds. I believe it's been stated that 17 starting QB's missed 1 game or more during the 2013 season... That puts the odds at 2.13:1.

But I agree... Missing 1 game does not = "injury prone" status.

[Fletch]

Russell Wilson averaged 210 yards passing and 1.63 passing TDs per game last season. The year Ben Roethlisberger won his Super Bowl he averaged 206 yards passing and threw an average 1.06 TDs per game. Heck Tom Brady won his first Super Bowl he tossed for 189.53 yards per game with 1.2 TDs per game. All of these guys won Super Bowls and weren't top 10 picks. For those that failed to see EJ improved as the season wore on look back at what he did last year after the Steelers game. He had above average games against the Jets and Falcons yes his next game against Tampa was his worst but then followed up with another strong game against Jacksonville. For those keeping track EJ passed for 197 yards per game with 1.1 passing TDs per game. Again I think people fail to realize just how untalented we were last year in certain parts of the team and yet we still almost finished with a 0.500 with a rookie QB.

Some of this isn't directed at you so don't necessarily take it as such. I don't know if a lot of the people commenting my posts are stupid, lazy, disingenuous, or what. I make comments and cite all kinds of data, and people sidestep it all to make a point on something else that's completely out of context with the original argument. I wasn't even going to respond to this but since you took the time to lay this all out and did so in a very civil manner, I will.

What you just did was find exceptions to attempt to cover up what is essentially a rule with Manuel. It's a poor argumentative tactic.

If you want to compare QBs like Brady, which I laugh about, or let's say more fairly Wilson, then we can do so on the relevant points. Here they are.

For starters, I was mentally all but begging Whaley and our FO to draft Wilson when he was still on the board in either round 2 or 3 back then. Wilson's draft profile is the complete opposite of Manuel's. Here's what nfl.com's said about Wilson;

<article>Strengths

Wilson is an accurate passer. He is a very mechanical quarterback who not only is consistent in his drop step, but also understands how to move within the pocket and evade when the pocket collapses. He is an athlete and can torque his body to make any sort of throw on the run, and is accurate in this setting. He is a born signal-caller who shows command of the offense. He has the arm strength to make the deep throws and the touch to put it on a receiver in stride. He is effective when scrambling and extending plays. </article><article>
Weaknesses

Wilson's height will be his biggest inhibitor at the next level and the largest reason for his late-round value. It remains to be seen if he can throw effectively from the pocket at the next level. </article>
Does that sound anything at all like Manuel? I see absolutely no similarity whatsover. I see the complete opposite. Wilson does not have the physical gift of size, but has all the other traits. Manuel has the gift of size and atheletcism, but none of the stuff that really matters in the NFL. They couldn't be any more polar opposites.

Secondly, Wilson's collegiate stats put Manuel's to open shame, and Wilson faced stiffer competition too. When he was at NC State he had to face FSU and Clemson twice each season, and those have been the toughest two and only two consistently good teams in the ACC over the last number of years. In his Sr. season he played 4 games against teams ranked in the top-25 including the 4th ranked team once and the 11th ranked team twice. He played relatively well in them.

Thirdly, taking Wilson's rookie season, for starters he played all 16 games in his rookie season and followed up doing the same last season. In his rookie season, 9 of 16 games, over half, he had a rating of over 100, usually a lot over. Average in the NFL is somewhere in the mid-high 80's.

12 of Wilson's 16 games, or 75%, rated above average then, most well above average. Another was 82, close. He had only 3 games, less than 20%, of in the 70's or worse. He did all of this with no better receivers than Manuel had last season.

As to Manuel, and this has all been pointed out before but apparently none of you that disagree think that any of it is relevant, his play in college was nothing like Wilsons and he was on the best team in the ACC never having had to face his own D. His schedule therefore was light, including bowl games. Still, he put up about half of what Wilson did.

I will defer to Wilson's draft review above which is the complete opposite of Manuel's. But here's the thing, Manuel, once again, has not improved on his weaknesses from his collegiate days, despite your ridiculous comps.

Of 10 games, Manuel had 3, 30%, with a rating greater than 100, and unlike Wilson's, those three teams pretty much sucked defensively with the sole exception of the Jets. Jax and NE had terrible Ds that season. Wilson posted a bunch of very good games against much better defenses. Manuel had one above average game against a top-10 D and that was the divisional rival Jets. That's it. Against Pitt and the Jets in the other game he played poorly. He played an decent game against Carolina which finished with the 10th ranked D, but they were struggling mightily at the beginning of the season when we played them.

Half, 50% of Manuel's games he had ratings well below average, and those teams and Ds were not even particularly good. Three of them were below average defenses.

Your statement that EJ improved as the season went on is absurd, plainly absurd. His four above average rated games were in weeks 1, 2, 11, and 14, with the only above average defense having been in week 2 despite Carolina's early season struggles. Anything that you perceive as improvement comes from the fact that he may have played three terrible defenses to finish off the season, Atlanta, Tampa, and Jax. Do I really need to remind you that all three of those teams finished worse than we did at 4-12?

This is hardly what Wilson did as a rookie. It's the complete opposite in fact.

Throw in the fact that Manuel didn't play one game in which he put 3 quarters, much less 4, of good football together. Not one. Wilson had numerous entire games that he played well in.

I cannot even believe that you cherry-picked a bunch of completely irrelevant facts to try and use Wilson as a case-in-point.

Manuel's issues are clear. He can't consistently hit water from a boat, he's often injured, can't read Ds very well, and a few other things. Those things were all well documented at FSU where the talent on his team was head and shoulders above that on his opponents' teams and defenses. That's not the case in the NFL and it's causing problems for him. Not that any of that was predictable or anything causing many people to consider him to have been a 2nd or 3rd round prospect and a project. Naturally the brainiacs are OBD always know things better.

I'm tired of putting the facts on Manuel out there. They're there, if anyone wants to heed them, fine, if not, I really don't care.

[Skooby]

Well, missing one game is not being injury prone.

And those are poor odds for that bet.

I would bet you more than 4 QB's miss one game.

but I would want better odds.

No, I'm good. You claim EJ is the one, so if you're sure he will stay healthy then bet. If not, then please stop blowing smoke about something you don't even believe.

[better days]

No, I'm good. You claim EJ is the one, so if you're sure he will stay healthy then bet. If not, then please stop blowing smoke about something you don't even believe.

I said his knee injury was minor & will not affect him long term.

I will bet you EJ does not miss one game because of his present knee condition.

But I am not Nostradamus, I can not predict future injuries.

[swiper]

3 knee injuries concerned me much more than his college tweaks, he didn't miss many games like in the NFL.

Not missing games does not mean he's not injury prone.

If you don't believe he's injury prone, wait until December and we'll recheck your pulse on the matter. His style of QB play is going to get him knocked around.

[Skooby]

Not missing games does not mean he's not injury prone.

If you don't believe he's injury prone, wait until December and we'll recheck your pulse on the matter. His style of QB play is going to get him knocked around.

Yeah, I'm the one betting that way so you're preaching to the choir.

[The Jokeman]

Some of this isn't directed at you so don't necessarily take it as such. I don't know if a lot of the people commenting my posts are stupid, lazy, disingenuous, or what. I make comments and cite all kinds of data, and people sidestep it all to make a point on something else that's completely out of context with the original argument. I wasn't even going to respond to this but since you took the time to lay this all out and did so in a very civil manner, I will.

What you just did was find exceptions to attempt to cover up what is essentially a rule with Manuel. It's a poor argumentative tactic.

If you want to compare QBs like Brady, which I laugh about, or let's say more fairly Wilson, then we can do so on the relevant points. Here they are.

For starters, I was mentally all but begging Whaley and our FO to draft Wilson when he was still on the board in either round 2 or 3 back then. Wilson's draft profile is the complete opposite of Manuel's. Here's what nfl.com's said about Wilson;

<article>Strengths

Wilson is an accurate passer. He is a very mechanical quarterback who not only is consistent in his drop step, but also understands how to move within the pocket and evade when the pocket collapses. He is an athlete and can torque his body to make any sort of throw on the run, and is accurate in this setting. He is a born signal-caller who shows command of the offense. He has the arm strength to make the deep throws and the touch to put it on a receiver in stride. He is effective when scrambling and extending plays. </article><article>
Weaknesses

Wilson's height will be his biggest inhibitor at the next level and the largest reason for his late-round value. It remains to be seen if he can throw effectively from the pocket at the next level. </article>
Does that sound anything at all like Manuel? I see absolutely no similarity whatsover. I see the complete opposite. Wilson does not have the physical gift of size, but has all the other traits. Manuel has the gift of size and atheletcism, but none of the stuff that really matters in the NFL. They couldn't be any more polar opposites.

Secondly, Wilson's collegiate stats put Manuel's to open shame, and Wilson faced stiffer competition too. When he was at NC State he had to face FSU and Clemson twice each season, and those have been the toughest two and only two consistently good teams in the ACC over the last number of years. In his Sr. season he played 4 games against teams ranked in the top-25 including the 4th ranked team once and the 11th ranked team twice. He played relatively well in them.

Thirdly, taking Wilson's rookie season, for starters he played all 16 games in his rookie season and followed up doing the same last season. In his rookie season, 9 of 16 games, over half, he had a rating of over 100, usually a lot over. Average in the NFL is somewhere in the mid-high 80's.

12 of Wilson's 16 games, or 75%, rated above average then, most well above average. Another was 82, close. He had only 3 games, less than 20%, of in the 70's or worse. He did all of this with no better receivers than Manuel had last season.

As to Manuel, and this has all been pointed out before but apparently none of you that disagree think that any of it is relevant, his play in college was nothing like Wilsons and he was on the best team in the ACC never having had to face his own D. His schedule therefore was light, including bowl games. Still, he put up about half of what Wilson did.

I will defer to Wilson's draft review above which is the complete opposite of Manuel's. But here's the thing, Manuel, once again, has not improved on his weaknesses from his collegiate days, despite your ridiculous comps.

Of 10 games, Manuel had 3, 30%, with a rating greater than 100, and unlike Wilson's, those three teams pretty much sucked defensively with the sole exception of the Jets. Jax and NE had terrible Ds that season. Wilson posted a bunch of very good games against much better defenses. Manuel had one above average game against a top-10 D and that was the divisional rival Jets. That's it. Against Pitt and the Jets in the other game he played poorly. He played an decent game against Carolina which finished with the 10th ranked D, but they were struggling mightily at the beginning of the season when we played them.

Half, 50% of Manuel's games he had ratings well below average, and those teams and Ds were not even particularly good. Three of them were below average defenses.

Your statement that EJ improved as the season went on is absurd, plainly absurd. His four above average rated games were in weeks 1, 2, 11, and 14, with the only above average defense having been in week 2 despite Carolina's early season struggles. Anything that you perceive as improvement comes from the fact that he may have played three terrible defenses to finish off the season, Atlanta, Tampa, and Jax. Do I really need to remind you that all three of those teams finished worse than we did at 4-12?

This is hardly what Wilson did as a rookie. It's the complete opposite in fact.

Throw in the fact that Manuel didn't play one game in which he put 3 quarters, much less 4, of good football together. Not one. Wilson had numerous entire games that he played well in.

I cannot even believe that you cherry-picked a bunch of completely irrelevant facts to try and use Wilson as a case-in-point.

Manuel's issues are clear. He can't consistently hit water from a boat, he's often injured, can't read Ds very well, and a few other things. Those things were all well documented at FSU where the talent on his team was head and shoulders above that on his opponents' teams and defenses. That's not the case in the NFL and it's causing problems for him. Not that any of that was predictable or anything causing many people to consider him to have been a 2nd or 3rd round prospect and a project. Naturally the brainiacs are OBD always know things better.

I'm tired of putting the facts on Manuel out there. They're there, if anyone wants to heed them, fine, if not, I really don't care.

I was using stats to show that just because a QB is putting up 200 yards of passing per game and only 1 TD a game that you can still win with it. Do I think EJ is as good as the QBs presented? No but I also think the Bills team as a whole is a lot worse than what Wilson, Roethlesburger and Brady had and played a factor in why Maneul's wins/losses weren't good. As far too often people bring up stats for stats sake but you're right that always show the full picture. I'm glad you responded as again I think people to look big picture which most don't. To me EJ was good last season, was he good enough? No but think he has shown some traits I like in a QB. In he doesn't turn the ball over and has shown he can drive down the field and get points when needed when the games on the line. Of course some things happened which prevented for some wins to occur like his injury in Cleveland and the drops in Atlanta. That said EJ has to improve this year as does the team to take the next step forward in progress which to me is a winning record.

[Fletch]

I was using stats to show that just because a QB is putting up 200 yards of passing per game and only 1 TD a game that you can still win with it.

That's fine, but you implied that he "led" them to wins, when in fact in most of those bowl games it was, clearly, FSU's D and rushing game, of which he was a significant part of I might add on at least one occasion (as a freshman), that led FSU to wins. I have never been nor ever will be one of those people that suggests that a team that won a game by allowing 17 or fewer points from an opposing offense, and had its rushing game outperform its passing game relatively speaking, won because of their QB throwing up a mediocre or even pedestrian game. That rationale makes very little sense.

On top of that, none of FSU's bowl competitors were ranked very well.

2012: NIU was from a ridiculously weak conference, the Mid-American, finished ranked only 22nd, and FSU allowed only 10 points to a team that scored nearly 4 times that on average, and the FSU rushing game put up almost as many rushing yards as Manuel threw for. Sorry, but I refuse to credit a QB on such a team for most of the reason for the win.

2011: FSU allowed a mere 7 points to a Notre Dame team that averaged over 4 times that many points on the season. ND wasn't even ranked at the end of the season, their D was very average ranked 45th in pass D. Offensively Manuel carried them by his passing game, he was awful rushing with -20 yards on 11 carries. Was that impressive? So-so IMO. Don't know about you, but I'll give just as much if not more credit to coaching and D in that game for the win, again, anytime a team holds an opponent to 7 offensive, the D gets at least half the credit. If you recall, that was the game that Mante Teo, or however you spell his name, failed to show up prompting concerns about his draft status. FSU coaching no doubt had a whole lot to do with that.

2010: South Carolina had the 112th (out of 120th) ranked pass D, and finished ranked 22nd. Manuel had a YPA of 5.6 on less than 100 yards throwing. Impressive? I don't think so. The rushing game carried the offense, and the D, while hardly stellar, still held SC to only 17 points. So again, not sure I'd say that Manuel "led" FSU to that win, I'd say more coaching and D again despite Manuel's inability to take advantage of a very weak passing D.

2009: WVU finished ranked 25th and their pass D wasn't good either and were in a relatively weak Big East conference. Arguably Manuel's best bowl game overall, but having said that he finished with fewer than 200 yards passing and no TDs, his contributions were in running the ball 14 times for 70 yards and a TD. Pretty much expected by an FSU QB against a team like WVU that season. Even if I give him full credit for that game, it was in his rookie season. What does it say for a QB that posts his best bowl game in his rookie season.



Do I think EJ is as good as the QBs presented? No but I also think the Bills team as a whole is a lot worse than what Wilson, Roethlesburger and Brady had and played a factor in why Maneul's wins/losses weren't good.

I don't agree with this at all. I already pointed out that Wilson's WRs in his rookie season were no better, perhaps worse, than ours last season. What now, Jackson and Spiller combined were worse than Lynch? I don't think so. Last season Brady had his worst corp of WRs ever and still posted a better season that IMO Manuel will ever post. Roeth also hasn't been blessed with premiere WRs although he's had good ones. Wallace and Brown have been his best but neither has been consistent or stellar other than in a season or two each. Besides, I give much of Roeth's success to his D which has finished 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in both yardage and scoring 6 times each in his 10 seasons.



As far too often people bring up stats for stats sake but you're right that always show the full picture. I'm glad you responded as again I think people to look big picture which most don't. To me EJ was good last season, was he good enough? No but think he has shown some traits I like in a QB. In he doesn't turn the ball over and has shown he can drive down the field and get points when needed when the games on the line. Of course some things happened which prevented for some wins to occur like his injury in Cleveland and the drops in Atlanta. That said EJ has to improve this year as does the team to take the next step forward in progress which to me is a winning record.

The one thing that I'll agree with you on in that batch of statements, which pertained at FSU too, is that he doesn't turn the ball over often, relatively speaking. That largely pertains to his fumbles as his INTs were nearly as numerous as his TDs last year. We can talk about drops being the reasons for losses, but that happens to every QB in the league. We also lost several games, not even against good or even marginal, but poor passing Ds because he played poorly. Again, he didn't have a single game where he put 3 good quarters, again, much less 4 good quarters, together. Some games he didn't even have one. Tampa, Atlanta, Jets (game 2) didn't have good pass Ds. Those were some of the most winnable games on the schedule in hindsight and we lost them primarily because he couldn't take advantage of soft pass Ds.

In short, I don't think he's shown much of anything. He's been as eratic as they make 'em. As I've pointed out some very bust QBs had very similar if not identical rookie seasons. He was anything but consistent, something that cannot possibly be said about Wilson, Brady, and Roeth, even in their debut/rookie seasons. We saw very little improvement, if anything more regression than improvement. We can "blame" some of that on injuries and eratic availability, but that's merely an excuse, not a reason as to why he'll likely succeed, right.

He'll post overall better numbers this season purely on the merits of playing more games, assuming that he stays healthy, but other than that I have very little hope. This cannot possibly be stressed enough, that he's been struggling with the same exact issues for five seasons now. He'll never have the superior talent here that he had at FSU relative to his opponents, a circumstance which really helped carry him there. I'm struggling to find any basis for improvement for him given the repeated issues as such.