Hmmmmmm.

[pmoon6]

The Williams brothers, Kyle and Mario, were voted #32 and #29 respectively on the NFL Network list of top players of the year.

I thought, at least in Mario's case, that they sucked?

As a matter of fact, it is pretty much a given that if you wear the Red, White, and Blue, you suck......at least according to lots of Bills' "Fans".

[YardRat]

Nice. We're getting a little bit more love than we have in the past.

[BertSquirtgum]

EJ sucks. That's about it.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh yeah, and Stephon Gilmore sucks.

[Homegrown]

Suck it baby, blow is just an expression

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

EJ sucks. That's about it.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh yeah, and Stephon Gilmore sucks.

Gilmore sucked at the start of the year but I feel he started looking like his old self near the end of the year
As for ej.... I hope he'll get it together

[sudzy]

Wow! 4 Bills made NFL.com's top 100!! Mission accomplish! We've made the big time! That's all nice, but, the NFL is all about wins and loses. All this other crap is a consolation prize. Get to the playoffs and then I'll admit they don't suck.

[Night Train]

As a matter of fact, it is pretty much a given that if you wear the Red, White, and Blue, you suck......at least according to lots of Bills' "Fans".

I picture them banging their helmet against the short bus window.

[Skooby]

Where has this gotten us?

[pmoon6]

Where has this gotten us?Sure, it doesn't mean much, but it does illustrate most of the crybaby wimps that populate this board don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

"Boo Hoo, Bluto. We haven't won in 14 years".

I have tissues and testosterone supplements for all of ya.

[Skooby]

Sure, it doesn't mean much, but it does illustrate most of the crybaby wimps that populate this board don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

"Boo Hoo, Bluto. We haven't won in 14 years".

I have tissues and testosterone supplements for all of ya.

We need a competitive team, not great stats & award. The only award I want the Bills to get is the V. Lombardi trophy, the rest is just something to chat about & GFS.

[Fletch]

The Williams brothers, Kyle and Mario, were voted #32 and #29 respectively on the NFL Network list of top players of the year.

I thought, at least in Mario's case, that they sucked?

As a matter of fact, it is pretty much a given that if you wear the Red, White, and Blue, you suck......at least according to lots of Bills' "Fans".

Depends upon your perspective.

For his contract, $100M and the highest paid defensive player in the league, call me nuts, but I'm expecting more than #32 or #29. You're good with that?

Secondly, it would have been nice if the pair of them could have played run D so as not to have allowed RBs like Blount, Bilal Powell, Bobby Rainey, and Justin Todman to put up career rushing days against us, and a whole bunch of other comparable RBs to get 100 yards or thereabouts.

After the sackfest last season they didn't do much. If sacks are all we go by, and it seems that that's the case, I guess that an argument can be made. Obviously we can't even go by passing TDs allowed in passing D since we ranked 20th last season there, and that we were only one more pass TD allowed away from being in a seven-team deadlock for 26th.

Either way, for the contract that Mario has, I expect a whole lot more. I also didn't see him ranked like that after his first season here. Maybe we should wait to see how he does against all the great passing teams that we play this year before preannointing him that high, especially in a system that doesn't overemphasize sacks to the detriment of the rest of the defense, don't you think? That approach makes more sense to me, especially since given all the sacks we had last season we still couldn't beat one single team ranked above average in passing D, so how much good did all those sacks actually do if the few teams that we played that actually had good pass Ds still played great offense?

To me those are good questions.

[Fletch]

Wow! 4 Bills made NFL.com's top 100!! Mission accomplish! We've made the big time! That's all nice, but, the NFL is all about wins and loses. All this other crap is a consolation prize. Get to the playoffs and then I'll admit they don't suck.

I completely agree with you, and what does it say when you log tons of sacks against teams like NO or Atlanta and they still score 30-some points and beat you anyway. If all we do is be able to beat other crap teams that don't make the playoffs, who really cares.

[Fletch]

We need a competitive team, not great stats & award. The only award I want the Bills to get is the V. Lombardi trophy, the rest is just something to chat about & GFS.

Unfortunately we're not at that level. Some will talk about how we lost 3 games by 3 points, but so did Tampa, and Cleveland lost two games by 3 points and another by 4, and Oakland lost three games by 4 points, but no one's talking about them like some here talk about us. I don't see a big difference besides all of those teams made the playoffs more recently than we have.

We also won three of our 6 wins by 3 points or less too. The only decisive wins we had were over the Jets, Jags, and Fins. Is that supposed to be impressive or encouraging?

Is it too much to ask to be able to beat some teams that rank higher than 18th, 20th, 22nd, 29th, and 31st in passing?

[Fletch]

Nice. We're getting a little bit more love than we have in the past.

That could be short-lived. Now if we can only get a LOT more wins than we have in the past we may be onto something.

[OpIv37]

The Williams brothers, Kyle and Mario, were voted #32 and #29 respectively on the NFL Network list of top players of the year.

I thought, at least in Mario's case, that they sucked?

As a matter of fact, it is pretty much a given that if you wear the Red, White, and Blue, you suck......at least according to lots of Bills' "Fans".
Wtf are you talking about? One person on this board has said that Mario sucks. No one has ever said that Kyle Williams sucks.

[stuckincincy]

The Williams brothers, Kyle and Mario, were voted #32 and #29 respectively on the NFL Network list of top players of the year.

I thought, at least in Mario's case, that they sucked?

As a matter of fact, it is pretty much a given that if you wear the Red, White, and Blue, you suck......at least according to lots of Bills' "Fans".

Folks - media, fan voters - are drunk on pass rushing numbers. Nobody on a team 14 years on the outs, with but one winning season, deserves those rankings.

[jills]

Sure, it doesn't mean much, but it does illustrate most of the crybaby wimps that populate this board don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

"Boo Hoo, Bluto. We haven't won in 14 years".

I have tissues and testosterone supplements for all of ya.

Agreed, who cares about wins anyway? they are overrated, playoffs are overrated. NFL.com's top 100 is all that matters baby.

[feldspar]

Folks - media, fan voters - are drunk on pass rushing numbers. Nobody on a team 14 years on the outs, with but one winning season, deserves those rankings.

The PLAYERS were the ones behind these rankings. They were ranked by their peers.

The Bills do have talent on their roster. They were competitive last year, and I'm cautiously optimistic about making the playoffs this year.

[BertSquirtgum]

Sure, it doesn't mean much, but it does illustrate most of the crybaby wimps that populate this board don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

"Boo Hoo, Bluto. We haven't won in 14 years".

I have tissues and testosterone supplements for all of ya.

Well, you cry about other people crying. So what does that say?

[pmoon6]

Depends upon your perspective.

For his contract, $100M and the highest paid defensive player in the league, call me nuts, but I'm expecting more than #32 or #29. You're good with that?

Secondly, it would have been nice if the pair of them could have played run D so as not to have allowed RBs like Blount, Bilal Powell, Bobby Rainey, and Justin Todman to put up career rushing days against us, and a whole bunch of other comparable RBs to get 100 yards or thereabouts.

After the sackfest last season they didn't do much. If sacks are all we go by, and it seems that that's the case, I guess that an argument can be made. Obviously we can't even go by passing TDs allowed in passing D since we ranked 20th last season there, and that we were only one more pass TD allowed away from being in a seven-team deadlock for 26th.

Either way, for the contract that Mario has, I expect a whole lot more. I also didn't see him ranked like that after his first season here. Maybe we should wait to see how he does against all the great passing teams that we play this year before preannointing him that high, especially in a system that doesn't overemphasize sacks to the detriment of the rest of the defense, don't you think? That approach makes more sense to me, especially since given all the sacks we had last season we still couldn't beat one single team ranked above average in passing D, so how much good did all those sacks actually do if the few teams that we played that actually had good pass Ds still played great offense?

To me those are good questions.Why do you give a **** what he got paid?

Salary is a function of the market in a particular year. Just because a player becomes the highest paid at his position doesn't mean he's the best. Look at Jairus Byrd.

Also, who gives a **** what you expect? You're just a spectator.

[pmoon6]

Well, you cry about other people crying. So what does that say?I must have a different definition of crying.

Just pointing out that Bills' Nation has turned into a bunch of little girls. Probably because most of the little darlings grew up watching in 1987.

[OpIv37]

I must have a different definition of crying.

Just pointing out that Bills' Nation has turned into a bunch of little girls. Probably because most of the little darlings grew up watching in 1987.

And you have just described the problem with Bills fans: accepting mediocrity. Your contention is that people who started watcing in 87 didn't experience the Bills' failures before that, so they're spoiled and can't handle what's going on now. You're satisfied with a few players getting ranked highly in some BS survey despite the lack of wins.

That's a load of crap. The struggles in the 70's and early 80's never should have happened, and the struggles of the last 14 years never should have happened.

It's unacceptable and fans have every right to be upset.

[pmoon6]

And you have just described the problem with Bills fans: accepting mediocrity. Your contention is that people who started watcing in 87 didn't experience the Bills' failures before that, so they're spoiled and can't handle what's going on now. You're satisfied with a few players getting ranked highly in some BS survey despite the lack of wins.

That's a load of crap. The struggles in the 70's and early 80's never should have happened, and the struggles of the last 14 years never should have happened.

It's unacceptable and fans have every right to be upset.Being upset is one thing. Acting like Drama Queens because it somehow affects your life is quite another.

I guess that's America today though. If ya don't have something to ***** about and can't claim victim status, there must be something wrong.

[OpIv37]

Being upset is one thing. Acting like Drama Queens because it somehow affects your life is quite another.

I guess that's America today though. If ya don't have something to ***** about and can't claim victim status, there must be something wrong.

are you ****ing serious?

It's a message board devoted to the team. Of course people are going to use it to vent their frustrations about the team's lack of success. That doesn't make them drama queens and it doesn't mean they're "claiming victim status"- it just makes them frustrated fans. If you don't like it, go to the message board of a team that hasn't sucked for 14 years and counting.

[feldspar]

are you ****ing serious?

It's a message board devoted to the team. Of course people are going to use it to vent their frustrations about the team's lack of success. That doesn't make them drama queens and it doesn't mean they're "claiming victim status"- it just makes them frustrated fans. If you don't like it, go to the message board of a team that hasn't sucked for 14 years and counting.

It makes fans whiners or drama queens when they post TENS OF THOUSANDS of times about how things are "unacceptable." They must see themselves as victims to ***** and moan that much...especially when they still manage complain about things in a thread about how Kyle Williams and Mario Williams are good players. Even though it's true that they are good players, certain people cannot simply focus on THAT and say something positive; instead, they complain no matter WHAT the topic. These are the people that think they "deserve" something, when what they deserve is a *****-slap.

[OpIv37]

It makes fans whiners or drama queens when they post TENS OF THOUSANDS of times about how things are "unacceptable." They must see themselves as victims to ***** and moan that much...especially when they still manage complain about things in a thread about how Kyle Williams and Mario Williams are good players. Even though it's true that they are good players, certain people cannot simply focus on THAT and say something positive; instead, they complain no matter WHAT the topic. These are the people that think they "deserve" something, when what they deserve is a *****-slap.

First, the bolded part is an assumption based on absolutely nothing but your own personal emotions.

Second, NO ONE has *****ed about Kyle Williams on this board. Only one person on this board has *****ed about Mario Williams. Yes, people (myself included) frequently complain about the team on this board. But pmoon6 attempted to call people out for something that no one actually did. He could have posted the article about the rankings without *****ing about people who supposedly *****, but he couldn't. He had to ***** about people *****ing before anyone actually did.

[Skooby]

If we draft in the top 1/3 of every round, our ranking sucks. If everyone just waits and sees how things goes in the pre-season / camp, then we can afford a conversation about it but until then I'm not following Rodak or anyone.

[Fletch]

Wtf are you talking about? One person on this board has said that Mario sucks. No one has ever said that Kyle Williams sucks.

Mario's just overrated.

Teams that are good and challenge in the playoffs every year don't have two or three overpaid players like we typically have and then a bunch of average ones, they get the most from their money and draft picks. If being in the same division as the austere Pats are doesn't drive that point home then nothing will.

It's about what you get for your money, and when you break the bank for a guy like Mario, you have no choice but to be more limited in what other players you sign. If you're more limited, unless you think that those few players are going to put you over the top, like many seem to think about Watkins now for instance, you're not going anywhere. Lots of teams have a few great players, it's the teams that have average play at all 22 positions, or at least most of them, that make the playoffs and compete to win their conferences.

[Fletch]

The PLAYERS were the ones behind these rankings. They were ranked by their peers.

The Bills do have talent on their roster. They were competitive last year, and I'm cautiously optimistic about making the playoffs this year.

They were? Competitive last year?

With what teams? We lost to Cleveland, Atlanta, and Tampa, all 4-12 teams. 3 of our 6 wins were in the division against mediocre teams.

We were competitive with other bottom dwellers, but not with good teams.

[Fletch]

Being upset is one thing. Acting like Drama Queens because it somehow affects your life is quite another.

I guess that's America today though. If ya don't have something to ***** about and can't claim victim status, there must be something wrong.

Now that's funny.

The people that define drama queens on forums in general are the ones that will claim that whatever offseason moves and draft picks a team makes are going to push the team over the top that season, but when their team is out of the playoffs for all intents and purposes they turn suicidal and homocidal and want the adminstratvie buildings of their teams nuked and all that in December.

Come back in November and you'll see who the drama queens are. They're the same people arguing with people like Op. That's rich though.

Good one.

[better days]

Mario's just overrated.

Teams that are good and challenge in the playoffs every year don't have two or three overpaid players like we typically have and then a bunch of average ones, they get the most from their money and draft picks. If being in the same division as the austere Pats are doesn't drive that point home then nothing will.

It's about what you get for your money, and when you break the bank for a guy like Mario, you have no choice but to be more limited in what other players you sign. If you're more limited, unless you think that those few players are going to put you over the top, like many seem to think about Watkins now for instance, you're not going anywhere. Lots of teams have a few great players, it's the teams that have average play at all 22 positions, or at least most of them, that make the playoffs and compete to win their conferences.

Well, the Pats* & Broncos both have one overpaid player. The rest of both those teams are nothing special.

It is all about the QB & the Bills will go as far as EJ carries them.

But EJ does not have to be Brady or Manning, he can be Flacco or Wilson for the Bills to be successful.

[Fletch]

First, the bolded part is an assumption based on absolutely nothing but your own personal emotions.

Second, NO ONE has *****ed about Kyle Williams on this board. Only one person on this board has *****ed about Mario Williams. Yes, people (myself included) frequently complain about the team on this board. But pmoon6 attempted to call people out for something that no one actually did. He could have posted the article about the rankings without *****ing about people who supposedly *****, but he couldn't. He had to ***** about people *****ing before anyone actually did.

Presumably you mean me on Mario. But even there, Mario's good, but he's hardly worth what we're paying him.

My point, apparently completely overlooked by the likes of feldspars of the world, is that if a team overpays a few players, like we have a history of doing, it inhibits their ability to sign other players. That's a fact, not an opinion. There's a salary cap in place, so if a team spends twice or three times as much on a player like Mario, or how ever many tens of millions, then that's 10s of millions that they cannot spend on other players.

When we signed Mario a lot of fans thought that he would push us over the top. Has that happened? Hardly. We've barely budged. Our record has been the same from the season before we signed him to the following one, his first, to last year. All 6-10.

Last season he was part of a D that logged a gazillion sacks, but one that still couldn't manage to stop good passing teams from putting up a buttload of passing yards and we still didn't beat one passing team ranking above average. He was also part of a Front-4 that couldn't stop even unknown RBs from posting career days. One could argue that Mario wasn't at fault, but then it would mean that Williams and Dareus were at fault.

If you ask me, Kyle Williams gives us a whole lot better play at his position for a fraction of the cost of Mario. This is what we need, more players like Kyle at 6 years for $39M with $6M guaranteed, and less like Mario at 6 years at $96M, with $50M guaranteed and $53M for the first three seasons.

More signings like Williams and none like Mario and maybe we're talking playoffs.

Also if you ask me, giving a $26M contract to Aaron Williams is just one more of those stupid extensions. That's going to come back to bite us. Good teams don't make signings like that. Think about it, Spikes, whom many are raving about, is getting a fraction of that at just over $3M.

It isn't complicated, but you have to have people in place that understand that and how talent matches up with it. It's pretty obvious that we don't have those people in our front office and never have. Either that or they just don't care and only sign players to sell tix. Either way, we can pick our poison.

[better days]

Presumably you mean me on Mario. But even there, Mario's good, but he's hardly worth what we're paying him.

My point, apparently completely overlooked by the likes of feldspars of the world, is that if a team overpays a few players, like we have a history of doing, it inhibits their ability to sign other players. That's a fact, not an opinion. There's a salary cap in place, so if a team spends twice or three times as much on a player like Mario, or how ever many tens of millions, then that's 10s of millions that they cannot spend on other players.

When we signed Mario a lot of fans thought that he would push us over the top. Has that happened? Hardly. We've barely budged. Our record has been the same from the season before we signed him to the following one, his first, to last year. All 6-10.

Last season he was part of a D that logged a gazillion sacks, but one that still couldn't manage to stop good passing teams from putting up a buttload of passing yards and we still didn't beat one passing team ranking above average. He was also part of a Front-4 that couldn't stop even unknown RBs from posting career days. One could argue that Mario wasn't at fault, but then it would mean that Williams and Dareus were at fault.

If you ask me, Kyle Williams gives us a whole lot better play at his position for a fraction of the cost of Mario. This is what we need, more players like Kyle at 6 years for $39M with $6M guaranteed, and less like Mario at 6 years at $96M, with $50M guaranteed and $53M for the first three seasons.

More signings like Williams and none like Mario and maybe we're talking playoffs.

Also if you ask me, giving a $26M contract to Aaron Williams is just one more of those stupid extensions. That's going to come back to bite us. Good teams don't make signings like that. Think about it, Spikes, whom many are raving about, is getting a fraction of that at just over $3M.

It isn't complicated, but you have to have people in place that understand that and how talent matches up with it. It's pretty obvious that we don't have those people in our front office and never have. Either that or they just don't care and only sign players to sell tix. Either way, we can pick our poison.

Well, according to YardBarker, Aaron Williams is the sixth best safety in the NFL.

A four year contract that averages just over $6 Million a year is CHEAP for the sixth rated safety.

And the Bills let Byrd & his bad back walk rather than over pay him & instead signed Brandon Spikes to a CHEAP contract for one year.

I think the front office is doing GREAT.

[WagonCircler]

Sure, it doesn't mean much, but it does illustrate most of the crybaby wimps that populate this board don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

"Boo Hoo, Bluto. We haven't won in 14 years".

I have tissues and testosterone supplements for all of ya.

None of this matters. But it will soon. The savior of the franchise is on the way, and he won't be wearing shoulder pads.

16948

[Dr. Who]

I sure hope you're right. Pegula would be a great owner.

And for all those boneheads who whine about the Sabres, they are going to be the next great team in two or three years.

[WagonCircler]

Pegula WILL be a great owner.

Fixed it for you.

[Fletch]

Well, the Pats* & Broncos both have one overpaid player. The rest of both those teams are nothing special.

It is all about the QB & the Bills will go as far as EJ carries them.

But EJ does not have to be Brady or Manning, he can be Flacco or Wilson for the Bills to be successful.

You think that Brady and Manning are overrated?

OK

That definitely explains most of your comments.

[better days]

You think that Brady and Manning are overrated?

OK

That definitely explains most of your comments.

No, I don't think they are over rated.

LEARN TO READ.

I think they are OVER PAID.

There is a huge difference between the two.

[Fletch]

No, I don't think they are over rated.

LEARN TO READ.

I think they are OVER PAID.

There is a huge difference between the two.

That's actually what I meant to say, I misstated it. So substitute it then and quit trying to avoid looking the fool that you are.

You think that Brady and Manning are overpaid?

Many think that Brady's underpaid, probably more than think he's overpaid given that he took a hometeam discount when he restructured years ago.

Manning's getting paid similarly to Mario, which one do you think does more for his team?

I can't even believe that you're arguing this point. Actually, I can. You argue the most ridiculous things.

If we had given Manning the same to play here no one would be saying a thing unless we stayed at 6-10 like we did after we signed Mario with no significant boost in the play of the defense except for sacks, which at the end of the day do no more for us than we got without them.

Brady's on a contract that pays him less than two-thirds of what Mario gets, with about the same guaranteed.

You really think that he's overpaid? You're the fool that you come across as if you do.

[better days]

That's actually what I meant to say, I misstated it. So substitute it then and quit trying to avoid looking the fool that you are.

You think that Brady and Manning are overpaid?

Many think that Brady's underpaid, probably more than think he's overpaid given that he took a hometeam discount when he restructured years ago.

Manning's getting paid similarly to Mario, which one do you think does more for his team?

I can't even believe that you're arguing this point. Actually, I can. You argue the most ridiculous things.

If we had given Manning the same to play here no one would be saying a thing unless we stayed at 6-10 like we did after we signed Mario with no significant boost in the play of the defense except for sacks, which at the end of the day do no more for us than we got without them.

Brady's on a contract that pays him less than two-thirds of what Mario gets, with about the same guaranteed.

You really think that he's overpaid? You're the fool that you come across as if you do.

Mario has a 6 year contract with the Bills for $96,000,000. $24,900,000 guaranteed. OVER PAID, YES.

Peyton has a 5 year contract with the Broncos for $96,000,000. $58,000,000 guaranteed. OVER PAID, HELL YES.

Brady is a relative steal, but still overpaid IMO. I will say this for Brady, he redid his contract for the good of his team.

If Peyton had not been so greedy, he would probably have more rings than Brady or his brother. But because of his greed, he has only one ring because he left his teams cash strapped.

[Mace]

I can appreciate Kyle and Mario, came to appreciate Schobel, even Kelsay to some extent. Important that it's where the players ranked them and sure, sign of respect.

I'd still sort of feel better about Mario if he got dirty and I sometimes saw him taking a play to the ground where he might, and I'd still feel better about Kyle if his vaunted jump on the snap count meant he blew up runs in the backfield repeatedly instead of overpursuing as a DT with backs always running past him on the worst rushing defenses in Bills history.

That said, Mario is the most talented fellow we've had around here in forever when he turns it on, if not the grittiest and toughest, and Kyle is the fiercest, steadiest, overachieving defensive workhorse I've ever seen in a Bills uniform. I'll begrudge Kyle nothing, nor Mario when he brings his "A" game, just wish he'd do it more often.

[coastal]

Presumably you mean me on Mario. But even there, Mario's good, but he's hardly worth what we're paying him.

My point, apparently completely overlooked by the likes of feldspars of the world, is that if a team overpays a few players, like we have a history of doing, it inhibits their ability to sign other players. That's a fact, not an opinion. There's a salary cap in place, so if a team spends twice or three times as much on a player like Mario, or how ever many tens of millions, then that's 10s of millions that they cannot spend on other players.

When we signed Mario a lot of fans thought that he would push us over the top. Has that happened? Hardly. We've barely budged. Our record has been the same from the season before we signed him to the following one, his first, to last year. All 6-10.

Last season he was part of a D that logged a gazillion sacks, but one that still couldn't manage to stop good passing teams from putting up a buttload of passing yards and we still didn't beat one passing team ranking above average. He was also part of a Front-4 that couldn't stop even unknown RBs from posting career days. One could argue that Mario wasn't at fault, but then it would mean that Williams and Dareus were at fault.

If you ask me, Kyle Williams gives us a whole lot better play at his position for a fraction of the cost of Mario. This is what we need, more players like Kyle at 6 years for $39M with $6M guaranteed, and less like Mario at 6 years at $96M, with $50M guaranteed and $53M for the first three seasons.

More signings like Williams and none like Mario and maybe we're talking playoffs.

Also if you ask me, giving a $26M contract to Aaron Williams is just one more of those stupid extensions. That's going to come back to bite us. Good teams don't make signings like that. Think about it, Spikes, whom many are raving about, is getting a fraction of that at just over $3M.

It isn't complicated, but you have to have people in place that understand that and how talent matches up with it. It's pretty obvious that we don't have those people in our front office and never have. Either that or they just don't care and only sign players to sell tix. Either way, we can pick our poison.
I'm the alleged Mario hater.

fool's gold.

youre wasting your breath though.

most here still think his wrist injury was real.

[feldspar]

My point, apparently completely overlooked by the likes of feldspars of the world, is that if a team overpays a few players, like we have a history of doing, it inhibits their ability to sign other players. That's a fact, not an opinion. There's a salary cap in place, so if a team spends twice or three times as much on a player like Mario, or how ever many tens of millions, then that's 10s of millions that they cannot spend on other players.


I know I'm not intelligent and all (remember?), but I don't recall ever talking along these lines anywhere here. Don't recall talking about player prices...show me where I did.

Also, I don't know why the Bills never thought about getting good players cheap...must be your superior intelligence there. Who would have thunk such a concept?

[Fletch]

I can appreciate Kyle and Mario, came to appreciate Schobel, even Kelsay to some extent. Important that it's where the players ranked them and sure, sign of respect.

I'd still sort of feel better about Mario if he got dirty and I sometimes saw him taking a play to the ground where he might, and I'd still feel better about Kyle if his vaunted jump on the snap count meant he blew up runs in the backfield repeatedly instead of overpursuing as a DT with backs always running past him on the worst rushing defenses in Bills history.

That said, Mario is the most talented fellow we've had around here in forever when he turns it on, if not the grittiest and toughest, and Kyle is the fiercest, steadiest, overachieving defensive workhorse I've ever seen in a Bills uniform. I'll begrudge Kyle nothing, nor Mario when he brings his "A" game, just wish he'd do it more often.

On the rankings, maybe, but those rankings rise and fall from season to season, month to month even during the season, and since most players are too busy just preparing for and playing football, and since only a couple of players actually line up across from any given player, I'd then say that those rankings are pretty meaningless.

On Mario I can't agree on his being the most talented in forever, but either way, "bringing his A-game" four times a season, usually against **** offenses, let's just call that the kicker for me. He's still the highest paid defensive player, IN THE LEAGUE. His play is far from enough to have justified that idiotic contract that they gave him.

I look at it like this, it doesn't matter what I think of the player, what matters is are they pitching in according to what they get paid. If they are, like Kyle Williams, then that's great. If not, like Mario, soon to be Aaron Williams, and others from the past like Fitzpatrick on that huge contract, then we need to find players that give us the performance that they're getting paid for.

Think about it, we could blow 80% of our cap on very good players and give them all "best of" contracts like Mario, but if they all underachieve, you're screwed.

This team's front office just doesn't understand how to match value to the size of the contract. Instead, and led by Brandon now, at the end of every season they have to ask themselves, "OK, what now, how do we keep the fans' interest for next season," and then instead of making moves that will grow the team in one capacity or another, they usually over pay or overplay their hand to sign a player that has a bigger name than performance, like Mario, knowing that people are going to be fooled into thinking that this is the player to push us over the top or at least ahead by 3 or 4 games.

I don't want to debate the reasons why since they've been discussed ad nauseum in other threads, but the same thing is going to happen this season regarding Watkins. It's just as idiotic to think that a rookie WR, I don't care how good, is going to be the one major positive change that propels us into the playoffs. The only difference between after this season and after prior ones is that Brandon and Whaley won't have a 1st-rounder to do the same thing with next season, one that I suspect will be higher than this year's 9th original pick.

[Fletch]

I'm the alleged Mario hater.

fool's gold.

youre wasting your breath though.

most here still think his wrist injury was real.

Mario was drastically overrated in Houston too, I never understood why he even got to that status. There are far too many games where we don't even hear his name mentioned during the game.

The media does its job well I guess. They tell everyone what to think and like Pavlov's pups everyone responds as they're supposed to.

[Fletch]

Also, I don't know why the Bills never thought about getting good players cheap...must be your superior intelligence there. Who would have thunk such a concept?

Or Belicheat's superior intelligence. I realize that we're a much better team than New England so I'm on thin ice there.

Otherwise, let me help you out, I never said cheap, what I implied and said was getting players that perform better than the contract they're getting.

Here, let's do a very fundmental exercise and see if you can hang.

Tom Brady: 5-year, $60Million, all guaranteed.

Mario Willaims: 6-year, $96 Million, $50M guaranteed. This year between roster bonus and salary he gets $12.5M. Nest year between those two he gets $13.1M.

Kyle Williams: 6-ytear, $33Million, $17M guaranteed.

Which of those players would you rather have straight up, in order?

For me, I'd take Kyle over Mario at equal money any day of the week, he's one of the best DTs in the business. What would cause anyone to pay three times more for Mario? Using this poll of respect, they're three spots apart. Is that worth nearly $70M?

Brady and Mario are getting paid equally, or thereabouts. By your logic this can't be the case.

There are examples of this all around the league. These are higher level examples, but they exist at the lower levels too. Some of it, a lot of it even, has to do with coaching. But when your front office goes for guys like Marrone that can't beat anyone of consequence in college and bring them to the NFL, why do we expect excellence here? Same thing. It doesn't matter what Marrone & Hackett are getting paid, it's too much for what they're doing. Anyone can coach an NFL team to 6-10 every season that has the talent we have here.

Anyway, I'm sorry that you seem to think that Brady and Kyle Williams aren't a better deal than Mario. Another clue to maybe get you to change your thinking there is that since Mario's the highest paid player in the league, defensively, how come he's nowhere near the best? I mean shouldn't those two correspond?

[better days]

Or Belicheat's superior intelligence. I realize that we're a much better team than New England so I'm on thin ice there.

Otherwise, let me help you out, I never said cheap, what I implied and said was getting players that perform better than the contract they're getting.

Here, let's do a very fundmental exercise and see if you can hang.

Tom Brady: 5-year, $60Million, all guaranteed.

Mario Willaims: 6-year, $96 Million, $50M guaranteed. This year between roster bonus and salary he gets $12.5M. Nest year between those two he gets $13.1M.

Kyle Williams: 6-ytear, $33Million, $17M guaranteed.

Which of those players would you rather have straight up, in order?

For me, I'd take Kyle over Mario at equal money any day of the week, he's one of the best DTs in the business. What would cause anyone to pay three times more for Mario? Using this poll of respect, they're three spots apart. Is that worth nearly $70M?

Brady and Mario are getting paid equally, or thereabouts. By your logic this can't be the case.

There are examples of this all around the league. These are higher level examples, but they exist at the lower levels too. Some of it, a lot of it even, has to do with coaching. But when your front office goes for guys like Marrone that can't beat anyone of consequence in college and bring them to the NFL, why do we expect excellence here? Same thing. It doesn't matter what Marrone & Hackett are getting paid, it's too much for what they're doing. Anyone can coach an NFL team to 6-10 every season that has the talent we have here.

Anyway, I'm sorry that you seem to think that Brady and Kyle Williams aren't a better deal than Mario. Another clue to maybe get you to change your thinking there is that since Mario's the highest paid player in the league, defensively, how come he's nowhere near the best? I mean shouldn't those two correspond?

The reason some guys get over paid is because their contract was up & they were free agents.

Such is the case with Mario. Mario was the best FA available the year he became one.

So, no highest paid does not equate to best player, it equates to best available player.

The same happened with Byrd this year. There is no way in hell Byrd is the best safety in the NFL.

[feldspar]

what I implied and said was getting players that perform better than the contract they're getting.


You must be some kind of a genius.

[feldspar]

I'm sorry that you seem to think that Brady and Kyle Williams aren't a better deal than Mario.

Also, this might very well be the most ridiculous projection that I've seen on a message board.

What? Say again?

[WagonCircler]

Also, this might very well be the most ridiculous projection that I've seen on a message board.

I'm pretty sure he takes that as a compliment.

[Fletch]

You must be some kind of a genius.

The two go hand-in-hand. You're the one splitting hairs on words.

Feel free to debate the issue though instead of just trying to lay out one-liners. I realize that that's a little tough in your position, so I understand. Anyone that thinks that Brady's overpaid, overrated, etc., isn't thinking too clearly. Same for Manning.

I guess that to you it's the same if a team has Mario at three times the cost of Kyle Williams. You'd fit right in with the rest of the front office apparently.

[BertSquirtgum]

The two go hand-in-hand. You're the one splitting hairs on words.

Feel free to debate the issue though instead of just trying to lay out one-liners. I realize that that's a little tough in your position, so I understand. Anyone that thinks that Brady's overpaid, overrated, etc., isn't thinking too clearly. Same for Manning.

I guess that to you it's the same if a team has Mario at three times the cost of Kyle Williams. You'd fit right in with the rest of the front office apparently.

Your posts suck.

[Mr. Pink]

The QB sucks and in the NFL that's pretty much all that matters.

I figured some people would figure that out over the past 14 years, the closest this team got to the playoffs in that span is the last time the team had a real QB.

[feldspar]

Feel free to debate the issue though instead of just trying to lay out one-liners. I realize that that's a little tough in your position, so I understand. Anyone that thinks that Brady's overpaid, overrated, etc., isn't thinking too clearly. Same for Manning.

I guess that to you it's the same if a team has Mario at three times the cost of Kyle Williams. You'd fit right in with the rest of the front office apparently.

Why should I debate the likes of you?

Apparently, you already know that I believe the most asinine things before I even open my mouth. I had no idea that I think Brady is overpaid and overrated...Manning too. Thanks for filling me in on that one, 'cuz I didn't know I thought that. I also didn't say a word about Kyle Williams contract as opposed to Mario's contract, either. Thanks for telling me what I may think about that because, again, I had no idea that I was capable of believing such things.

Do me a favor...please tell me what I think about the war in Afghanistan.

[Fletch]

Why should I debate the likes of you?

I don't know, why should you?

Don't then. Crying about it after doing it doesn't say much.

[feldspar]

I don't know, why should you?

Don't then. Crying about it after doing it doesn't say much.

You insulted me out of the clear blue sky, and then just put a bunch of words in mouth, saying I think ridiculous things about subjects I never even talked about here. You look silly, if not downright unbalanced.

[Fletch]

You insulted me out of the clear blue sky, and then just put a bunch of words in mouth, saying I think ridiculous things about subjects I never even talked about here. You look silly, if not downright unbalanced.

Well, I'm sorry if I did that, and no, I didn't come out of the clear blue sky, I responded to what you said to another poster, but this is what happens when instead of staying on point with the central theme or topic in a thread, or in this case my statements about it, and instead go off on irrelevant tangents taking to task other posters personally and without making a single salient point about the topic at hand. People then address your implications instead of anything relevant that you have to say.

If you don't like it, then I'd strongly suggest sticking to topic, and not belittling those that disagree with you instead. You quite clearly took a very serious tangent there in that way.

No matter how you looked at it, you missed the point that I had made entirely. You still haven't addressed it despite the fact that it's about as non-complex an issue as there is. It's a simple matter of resource management.

[feldspar]

Well, I'm sorry if I did that, and no, I didn't come out of the clear blue sky, I responded to what you said to another poster, but this is what happens when instead of staying on point with the central theme or topic in a thread, or in this case my statements about it, and instead go off on irrelevant tangents taking to task other posters personally and without making a single salient point about the topic at hand. People then address your implications instead of anything relevant that you have to say.

If you don't like it, then I'd strongly suggest sticking to topic, and not belittling those that disagree with you instead. You quite clearly took a very serious tangent there in that way.

No matter how you looked at it, you missed the point that I had made entirely. You still haven't addressed it despite the fact that it's about as non-complex an issue as there is. It's a simple matter of resource management.

All I can say is go back and read the thread again. You are so off base that I'm worried about ya.

[Fletch]

All I can say is go back and read the thread again. You are so off base that I'm worried about ya.

You keep saying stuff like that, but I'm still waiting for you to comment on the topic of the thread.

Do you think that Mario is overrated/overpaid and that we could do a whole lot more for the money than what we're getting from him for it?

If not, then look at what I've posted and either agree or disagree, but quit carrying on like a schoolgirl.

[Fletch]

All I can say is go back and read the thread again. You are so off base that I'm worried about ya.

By the way, start by reading this, which basically claims the same thing that I have.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/02/28/jvm-buffalo-bills/

Mario's the most overrated/overpaid player on the team.

[feldspar]

You keep saying stuff like that, but I'm still waiting for you to comment on the topic of the thread.

Do you think that Mario is overrated/overpaid and that we could do a whole lot more for the money than what we're getting from him for it?


This was not the topic of the thread.

[Fletch]

This was not the topic of the thread.

It sure as hell is related to it, your comments aren't related to it at all. Here, I'll summarize your comments and you tell me if they are.

First: The PLAYERS were the ones behind these rankings. They were ranked by their peers.

The Bills do have talent on their roster. They were competitive last year, and I'm cautiously optimistic about making the playoffs this year.

Second: It makes fans whiners or drama queens when they post TENS OF THOUSANDS of times about how things are "unacceptable." They must see themselves as victims to ***** and moan that much...especially when they still manage complain about things in a thread about how Kyle Williams and Mario Williams are good players. Even though it's true that they are good players, certain people cannot simply focus on THAT and say something positive; instead, they complain no matter WHAT the topic. These are the people that think they "deserve" something, when what they deserve is a *****-slap.

Third: I know I'm not intelligent and all (remember?), but I don't recall ever talking along these lines anywhere here. Don't recall talking about player prices...show me where I did.

Also, I don't know why the Bills never thought about getting good players cheap...must be your superior intelligence there. Who would have thunk such a concept?

Fourth: You must be some kind of a genius.

Fifth: Also, this might very well be the most ridiculous projection that I've seen on a message board.

What? Say again?

Sixth: Why should I debate the likes of you?

Apparently, you already know that I believe the most asinine things before I even open my mouth. I had no idea that I think Brady is overpaid and overrated...Manning too. Thanks for filling me in on that one, 'cuz I didn't know I thought that. I also didn't say a word about Kyle Williams contract as opposed to Mario's contract, either. Thanks for telling me what I may think about that because, again, I had no idea that I was capable of believing such things.

Do me a favor...please tell me what I think about the war in Afghanistan.

Seventh: You insulted me out of the clear blue sky, and then just put a bunch of words in mouth, saying I think ridiculous things about subjects I never even talked about here. You look silly, if not downright unbalanced.

Eighth: All I can say is go back and read the thread again. You are so off base that I'm worried about ya.

Ninth: This was not the topic of the thread.


Now, the topic of the thread was that Mario and Kyle Williams were ranked 29th and 32nd by their peers. Anything related to that is relevant to that topic.

All I see in your responses above is sniveling and whining and excuse making.

I stated some things, you took issue but provided absolutely no basis for it, I in turn asked you some questions that you failed to answer, and so here we go, round and round on your little wheel of idiocy.

Once again, if you'd like to offer up something intelligent, please feel free, but then do it, don't just keep going on like some school girl.

[feldspar]

Once again, if you'd like to offer up something intelligent, please feel free, but then do it, don't just keep going on like some school girl.

You are one disturbed individual, it seems to me.

[Fletch]

You are one disturbed individual, it seems to me.

LOL

I'll add that one to the list of worthless posts that you made. You've contributed nothing worth while to this thread. I realize that in your egocentric world that doesn't matter, just sayin'.

Anyway, at this point I'm becoming part of the nonsense, so go ahead and add another ridiculous post and have the last word. I was trying to help you out. What ruins these forums is the incessant blathering like every single post that you've made (minus one, sort of) while others are trying to legitimately discuss things.

[feldspar]

LOL

I'll add that one to the list of worthless posts that you made. You've contributed nothing worth while to this thread. I realize that in your egocentric world that doesn't matter, just sayin'.

Anyway, at this point I'm becoming part of the nonsense, so go ahead and add another ridiculous post and have the last word. I was trying to help you out. What ruins these forums is the incessant blathering like every single post that you've made (minus one, sort of) while others are trying to legitimately discuss things.

You continue to entirely fail to recognize WHY I've been making these comments to you, even though I've flat-out told you.

There is only one reason I'm speaking to you in this thread at all. Again, it's because you've been TELLING me what I think based on nothing that I've said whatsoever. You aren't even arguing a straw-man, because I've said absolutely NOTHING regarding your topic...yet you completely make **** up, call that my opinion, and then tell me I'm wrong. I find that extremely odd, unreasonable, and pretty freakin' hilarious. Then you call ME egocentric...nice finishing touch.

Thanks for "trying to help me out." Now I'll return that generous favor.

I mean, are you really THAT desperate to be contrary or have somebody to disagree with that you will go to those delusional lengths? You really THAT driven to set people straight about the way things are? Wanna preach? What?

[Fletch]

On this topic, and not at all directed at you feldspar, consider if we weren't strapped with Mario, we could actually make a play for Graham, draft picks that we no longer have aside.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/07/02/would-another-team-make-a-run-at-graham/

He would have come at a fraction of the cost, is almost two years younger than Graham, and as I see it would do a whole lot more for this team than Mario has done.

This is just one example of what we could do with some, not even all, of the money that Mario's getting. As it is, we spent the same draft picks that would be required on a completely unproven player.

I would think that Bills fans would be tickled at even the prospect of it if it were possible any longer.

[Fletch]

Here's an interesting note on this "players voting" list.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/07/04/donte-whitner-questions-if-players-really-vote-for-nfln-top-100/

Sounds like this has been questioned frequently.

[pmoon6]

It seems that Coastal and Fletch graduated from the same finishing school and majored in Douchebaggery and minored in Delusion.

It goes without saying they took the same short bus to school.

[coastal]

Mario has to fly his fiancé in before he signs $100 million contract. Apparently he needs her permission.

Mario buys her a million dollar engagement ring.

Mario whines after his first game that the Jets OT he played against was mean and was punching him in he mouth.

The WNY media starts turning on Mario for a lack of production and mysteriously develops some wrist injury during the bye-week that the coach never heard anything about.

Mario has to lawyer up in order get the million dollar ring back.

Mario finishes with just enough production (basically 3 games) to avoid any accountability.

Does this sound like the type of Reggie White type of warrior that you make the highest paid defensive player in the history of the game or the kind of guy other GMs laugh at us for giving the type of contract we did?

me and fletch know none of u r capable of being honest so don't bother answering.

[pmoon6]

Mario has to fly his fiancé in before he signs $100 million contract. Apparently he needs her permission.

Mario buys her a million dollar engagement ring.

Mario whines after his first game that the Jets OT he played against was mean and was punching him in he mouth.

The WNY media starts turning on Mario for a lack of production and mysteriously develops some wrist injury during the bye-week that the coach never heard anything about.

Mario has to lawyer up in order get the million dollar ring back.

Mario finishes with just enough production (basically 3 games) to avoid any accountability.

Does this sound like the type of Reggie White type of warrior that you make the highest paid defensive player in the history of the game or the kind of guy other GMs laugh at us for giving the type of contract we did?

me and fletch know none of u r capable of being honest so don't bother answering.:rofl:

[Fletch]

It seems that Coastal and Fletch graduated from the same finishing school and majored in Douchebaggery and minored in Delusion.

It goes without saying they took the same short bus to school.

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone and went back to 4th grade.

Oh wait, I'm just on Billszone. Sorry 'bout that.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

On this topic, and not at all directed at you feldspar, consider if we weren't strapped with Mario, we could actually make a play for Graham, draft picks that we no longer have aside.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/07/02/would-another-team-make-a-run-at-graham/

He would have come at a fraction of the cost, is almost two years younger than Graham, and as I see it would do a whole lot more for this team than Mario has done.

This is just one example of what we could do with some, not even all, of the money that Mario's getting. As it is, we spent the same draft picks that would be required on a completely unproven player.

I would think that Bills fans would be tickled at even the prospect of it if it were possible any longer.

Graham wants to be paid like a wideout and probably deserves to be. Spotrac's predicts 5 years/66 million (http://www.spotrac.com/premium/research/nfl/contract-forecast-jimmy-graham-375/), and if you add in two first round picks including one in the top 10, and I strongly disagree that he'd come at a "fraction" of the cost.

[better days]

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone and went back to 4th grade.

Oh wait, I'm just on Billszone. Sorry 'bout that.

Well, your reading comprehension is not even at the 4th grade level.

[pmoon6]

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone and went back to 4th grade.

Oh wait, I'm just on Billszone. Sorry 'bout that.It's obvious you never advanced past the fourth grade.

It's OK, though. The country's municipalities need street sweepers and sewage workers. Just don't spend ALL your pay at the Du Drop Inn. Leave some so you can help your Mom with groceries.

[pmoon6]

I apologize to the board in general.

It's insensitive of me to beat up on the mentally handicapped.

[Fletch]

Mario has to fly his fiancé in before he signs $100 million contract. Apparently he needs her permission.

Mario buys her a million dollar engagement ring.

Mario whines after his first game that the Jets OT he played against was mean and was punching him in he mouth.

The WNY media starts turning on Mario for a lack of production and mysteriously develops some wrist injury during the bye-week that the coach never heard anything about.

Mario has to lawyer up in order get the million dollar ring back.

Mario finishes with just enough production (basically 3 games) to avoid any accountability.

Does this sound like the type of Reggie White type of warrior that you make the highest paid defensive player in the history of the game or the kind of guy other GMs laugh at us for giving the type of contract we did?

me and fletch know none of u r capable of being honest so don't bother answering.

You may as well throw in the fact that he had only one huge game last season for 4.5 sacks and otherwise didn't do much that contributed to wins.

He had 2 sacks against the Browns and they still beat us. The Browns. Miami, Jacksonville, and the Jets all beat the Browns and they didn't need Mario to do it.

Mario had 4 sacks in games that we won, 3 of them were against Miami in two games. I mean who's impressed with that?

This season he gets paid $12.5M in cash. We'll see soon enough whether that was money well spent.

Whaley should be shiit-canned if Manuel doesn't pan out. He went all-in on Manuel last year by reaching for him, stands by his foolishness, and bolstered the notion by giving up way too much to get Watkins, a WR that didn't even play in a pro-style offense at Clemson.

Let's just hope that a new owner comes on board in time to prevent Brandon and Whaley from carrying out more tom-foolery.

[pmoon6]

Has the Zone replenished their stock of tissues, Midol and strawberry douche?

It seems some posters are in need even before the season starts.

[Fletch]

Graham wants to be paid like a wideout and probably deserves to be. Spotrac's predicts 5 years/66 million (http://www.spotrac.com/premium/research/nfl/contract-forecast-jimmy-graham-375/), and if you add in two first round picks including one in the top 10, and I strongly disagree that he'd come at a "fraction" of the cost.

Let's use this scenario as an example.

For starters I agree with all that you said.

My point is this.

Indisputable: We are no better than we were prior to Mario's arrival here. We were 6-10 before he got here and 6-10 both of the last two seasons that he's been here. So we're about the same plus or minus.

Let's say that we could trade Watkins and Mario for Graham at the age of 27 and for the last years of his prime, and at a cost of 5 years $66M.

Watkins got a $12M signing bonus, and Mario gets paid $12.5M this year, $13.1M next year, $14M in '16, and $14.9M in 2017. The total of that, not including the other $8M worth of Watkins' contract, or his salary in his 5th season or 6th option year, is more than the $66M that Graham's likely to get. More than. It's $66.5M not including Watkins' 5/6 years or Mario's $19M signing bonus.

To get Graham would also take the two 1st-rounders that it took us to get Watkins. If you include Mario's bonus money and the rest of Watkins' contract it would be a "fraction" of what they get, about 2/3 overall assuming that Watkins' 5th year is commensurate with his expected performance.

Graham is also a premier player at his position, arguably the best TE in the game today as a receiver, so this isn't even really the types of players that I'm talking about, yet it would still be at a fraction of the two, for about the same number of years.

In Mario we get an overrated DE that isn't living anywhere close to his contract and one that disappears for half a season erratically and typically only contributes to wins over teams that we really shouldn't need over the top play by anyone to beat. He's proven, but inconsistent, and hardly the best at his position despite his current status as the highest paid defensive player in the league.

In Watkins we get a WR with incredible physical skills but one that did not play in a pro-style offense in college and one that excelled on plays that typically don't succeed at the NFL. We also get a player whose returns on kicks and punts didn't live up to his timed speed.

In Graham we get a TE that can play WR that creates matchup problems for every D, a player that has averaged 90 catchs, almost 1,200 yards receiving, and 12 TDs per season. He's proven.

Assumptions:

Graham would play for Buffalo if we threw him an offer and New Orleans balked and took the picks.

Graham would instantly give Manuel what Whaley claims we'll get from Watkins.

Graham would give us in the receiving department something that we've never had or that few teams ever have.

Facts:

Graham has almost no risk compared to Watkins who hasn't even proven his worth in the NFL much less having been worth 2 1st-round draft picks and about half the money that Graham should get.

So, less than the same draft picks that it took to get Watkins, and saving a 4th rounder, and for about two-thirds the money that it will cost us for both Watkins and Mario, leaving the other third to get other players, we could have Graham, who would instantly be our best receiver and give Manuel one of the biggest if not the biggest targets in the league.

If Watkins ends up busting or even semi-busting, that deal would look like a real gem. So consider this, in Graham's rookie season, with Brees at QB, Graham only put up 31 catches for 356 yards, 11.5 ypr, and had 5 TDs. We're expecting so much more from Watkins. Watkins will have to do what Graham has done the last three seasons to justify his draft status. Graham has done it and proven that he can.

So you're saying that such a deal would be bad for us?

I'd take that swap with the extra spending money in a heartbeat.

[better days]

Let's use this scenario as an example.

For starters I agree with all that you said.

My point is this.

Indisputable: We are no better than we were prior to Mario's arrival here. We were 6-10 before he got here and 6-10 both of the last two seasons that he's been here. So we're about the same plus or minus.

Let's say that we could trade Watkins and Mario for Graham at the age of 27 and for the last years of his prime, and at a cost of 5 years $66M.

Watkins got a $12M signing bonus, and Mario gets paid $12.5M this year, $13.1M next year, $14M in '16, and $14.9M in 2017. The total of that, not including the other $8M worth of Watkins' contract, or his salary in his 5th season or 6th option year, is more than the $66M that Graham's likely to get. More than. It's $66.5M not including Watkins' 5/6 years or Mario's $19M signing bonus.

To get Graham would also take the two 1st-rounders that it took us to get Watkins. If you include Mario's bonus money and the rest of Watkins' contract it would be a "fraction" of what they get, about 2/3 overall assuming that Watkins' 5th year is commensurate with his expected performance.

Graham is also a premier player at his position, arguably the best TE in the game today as a receiver, so this isn't even really the types of players that I'm talking about, yet it would still be at a fraction of the two, for about the same number of years.

In Mario we get an overrated DE that isn't living anywhere close to his contract and one that disappears for half a season erratically and typically only contributes to wins over teams that we really shouldn't need over the top play by anyone to beat. He's proven, but inconsistent, and hardly the best at his position despite his current status as the highest paid defensive player in the league.

In Watkins we get a WR with incredible physical skills but one that did not play in a pro-style offense in college and one that excelled on plays that typically don't succeed at the NFL. We also get a player whose returns on kicks and punts didn't live up to his timed speed.

In Graham we get a TE that can play WR that creates matchup problems for every D, a player that has averaged 90 catchs, almost 1,200 yards receiving, and 12 TDs per season. He's proven.

Assumptions:

Graham would play for Buffalo if we threw him an offer and New Orleans balked and took the picks.

Graham would instantly give Manuel what Whaley claims we'll get from Watkins.

Graham would give us in the receiving department something that we've never had or that few teams ever have.

Facts:

Graham has almost no risk compared to Watkins who hasn't even proven his worth in the NFL much less having been worth 2 1st-round draft picks and about half the money that Graham should get.

So, less than the same draft picks that it took to get Watkins, and saving a 4th rounder, and for about two-thirds the money that it will cost us for both Watkins and Mario, leaving the other third to get other players, we could have Graham, who would instantly be our best receiver and give Manuel one of the biggest if not the biggest targets in the league.

If Watkins ends up busting or even semi-busting, that deal would look like a real gem. So consider this, in Graham's rookie season, with Brees at QB, Graham only put up 31 catches for 356 yards, 11.5 ypr, and had 5 TDs. We're expecting so much more from Watkins. Watkins will have to do what Graham has done the last three seasons to justify his draft status. Graham has done it and proven that he can.

So you're saying that such a deal would be bad for us?

I'd take that swap with the extra spending money in a heartbeat.

Even if the Bills could trade Mario for Graham straight up, what makes you think Graham would help the Bills win any more games than Mario?

Graham is on the down slope & is going to get paid. If we were sure the Bills could go to the Super Bowl with EJ & the addition of Graham in the next couple years it might make sense to make that trade.

The Bills are a YOUNG team & Watkins is also YOUNG & CHEAP for the next 5 years.

Either EJ starts producing, or if he doesn't, Watkins is young enough to play a number of years with the next QB.

[sudzy]

Has the Zone replenished their stock of tissues, Midol and strawberry douche?

It seems some posters are in need even before the season starts.


Do you ever post anything that's informative/not derogatory?