New York governor skeptical of taxpayers building Bills a stadium

[Fletch]

Just posting this because no one has yet.

If the Bills and the NFL want the taxpayers of New York to chip in on a new stadium in order to keep the Bills in Buffalo, they’re going to have to work on convincing New York Governor Andrew Cuomo.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/07/01/new-york-governor-skeptical-of-taxpayers-building-bills-a-stadium/

[Night Train]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/06/25/report-cuomo-isnt-completely-sold-on-bills-needing-a-new-stadium/

Welcome to a week ago.

[Fletch]

This seems to have been a development. We went from saying that he doesn't think we need one, to he won't let the taxpayers pay for one.

I think he needs to qualify that by saying on for the Bills. Since when is Cuomo against spending of any sort.

I'm against taxpayers paying for any business expense for any business, but unfortunately that's not how most politicians and many people think.

Anyway, it sounds like now they'll have to battle the state too, and if they come out on the losing end of that one the slim hopes that I had of the team staying over the long term get even slimmer.

[trapezeus]

this is all the dance that governors on both sides of the aisle will do.

"against taxpayers paying for any business"? Despite government spending having a multiplying effect on GDP?

i am against building a stadium that can do nothing but host football games in a suburb of buffalo and provide all the profits to the owner.
i am for building a football stadium in downtown that is multi-purpose, and is aided by incentives for businesses to develop around the stadium. anything to keep building on the vibrancy returning to downtown.

[better days]

Jacobs has said he would build a Stadium to keep the Bills in Buffalo.

If Pegula buys the Bills, I should say when Pegula buys the Bills, I am sure he would contribute to a new Stadium as well.

I think a new multi use Stadium downtown will be in the works after Pegula takes ownership of the Bills.

[Bill Cody]

This seems to have been a development. We went from saying that he doesn't think we need one, to he won't let the taxpayers pay for one.

I think he needs to qualify that by saying on for the Bills. Since when is Cuomo against spending of any sort.

I'm against taxpayers paying for any business expense for any business, but unfortunately that's not how most politicians and many people think.

Anyway, it sounds like now they'll have to battle the state too, and if they come out on the losing end of that one the slim hopes that I had of the team staying over the long term get even slimmer.

The new owners needs to build the stadium themselves. Bob Kraft did and he's not as rich as Pegula. That's not to say the state won't contribute to the project. There may be significant infrastructure costs. That's what the state should pony up for and I expect it will.

[SpikedLemonade]

Minny state cut a cheque for $500M. I have difficulty believing NY would not do the same.

[DraftBoy]

The taxpayers in NYS will have to contribute to any new stadium project. That's above and beyond whatever tax breaks they are already going to get.

[coastal]

Let the fracking king pay for it. Good for Cuomo and hold that ****ing line.

[Historian]

I disagree.

All new stadiums have been built downstate...in the middle of the worst recession since the big one.

Yanks, Mets, Devils, Giants-Jets, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions, on a sesame seed bun.

I call Bull****.

The rotten apple can fund our team for a change.

[Fletch]

i am against building a stadium that can do nothing but host football games in a suburb of buffalo and provide all the profits to the owner.
i am for building a football stadium in downtown that is multi-purpose, and is aided by incentives for businesses to develop around the stadium. anything to keep building on the vibrancy returning to downtown.

The first part of that is the reality.

On the second part, what brings vibrancy is low taxes, not higher ones.

If you had a business, are you going to locate it next to an NFL stadium that has major events 8 days out of 365, quite possibly several of them in miserable weather, although that's pretty insignificant considering that we're talking about fewer than 3% of days, none of which are business days, and hope that it propels your Buffalo business to a profit?

The kind of stuff that you're talking about takes years and is more complex than simply building a stadium where you want econonic development.

Rochester thought similarly years ago with that idiotic Fast Ferry idea. Canadians, they said, were going to flock over from Canada to shop in Rochester's wonderful malls and come visit the beach. Yeah right. Anyone with a brain knew that that wasn't going to happen.

Anyone know whatever happened to that 99-year lease that Rochester was on the hook for with Toronto?

Rochester also has done a lot with that High Falls area but that hasn't resulted in any kind of economic boon. This stuff is wishful thinking most of the time. There's a reason why all of the businesses that once were in WNY are now gone, and it's not because of what a stadium will bring.

[Fletch]

The new owners needs to build the stadium themselves. Bob Kraft did and he's not as rich as Pegula. That's not to say the state won't contribute to the project. There may be significant infrastructure costs. That's what the state should pony up for and I expect it will.

Hope you're right. Most stadiums are taxpayer financed however. I just posted a link to an article in another thread about that from a major magazine. There are numerous articles on that.

NFL owners are business owners. As business owners they should pay for their own expenses. Having a tax exempt status and on top of that having taxpayers pay for their expenses, in this case stadium financing, is the reason why player salaries and contracts are so inflated.

Think about it, if someone owned a brick and mortar business, and somehow managed to get tax exempt status for it, and on top of that managed to have the community pick-up the financing on a new expensive building that it bought and one with all the bells and whistles, how would those taxpayers react?

Except when it's pro sports they all look the other way.

- - - Updated - - -


Minny state cut a cheque for $500M. I have difficulty believing NY would not do the same.

According to Cuomo it's not going to happen.

[SpikedLemonade]

No owner would be stupid enough to spend close to $1B of his own money on a new stadium in Buffalo.

Never going to happen.

The most they will invest is $300M as their share of the $1B and then they will finance half of that $300M through PSLs.

The Minny owner invested less than that and the twin cities don't look as bad as what a two hour tour of Buffalo looks like.

[SpikedLemonade]

The rotten apple can fund our team for a change.

There it is!

[Fletch]

I disagree.

All new stadiums have been built downstate...in the middle of the worst recession since the big one.

Yanks, Mets, Devils, Giants-Jets, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions, on a sesame seed bun.

I call Bull****.

The rotten apple can fund our team for a change.

Besides the Yankees, which according to this piece http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-09-05/in-stadium-building-spree-u-s-taxpayers-lose-4-billion.html claims it was only $321.5M which I'm not sure I believe is that low, which other major ones were in NYS?

The Jets/Giants stadium is in Jersey as are the Devils. According to that same piece the Jets/Giants was privately financed, but unlike Wilson they sold the naming rights to Met-Life for $20M annually for 25 years. That's $500M. That ain't happening in Buffalo.

[Fletch]

No owner would be stupid enough to spend close to $1B of his own money on a new stadium in Buffalo.

Never going to happen.

The most they will invest is $300M as their share of the $1B and then they will finance half of that $300M through PSLs.

The Minny owner invested less than that and the twin cities don't look as bad as what a two hour tour of Buffalo looks like.

Unless something's changed in recent years all it takes is one drive through southern downtown and one up Niagara Falls Blvd.

I completely agree. That would fall into the category of a horrible investment.

Funny you bring that up because that's more or less how I'm expecting it to go down. New owner insists he'll keep the team in Buffalo. NFL insists that Rich ain't good enough anymore after 2020 even with renovations. New owner tries but cannot find any scenario that makes sense to keep the team in Buffalo. But they'll have tried.

That's also why I will continue to insist that $400M really isn't that much if a team really wants to move prior to 2020. Think about it, if the choice is building a stadium here with your own money, or mostly your own, or having the taxpayers of some other city pick up a few hundred million, in a place where you can charge more for tickets, parking, etc., it doesn't take much to realize that the better deal may still be moving. If you ask me Toronto may even be a city where the owner could get a similar $20M annual stadium naming deal. Even half of that for 20 years is half the penalty for moving. All of a sudden the remaining $200M doesn't look so steep, especially when weighed against the benefits.

I really think that Cuomo is being honest for a change. The Yankees have a ton more history, definitely of winning, and are an iconic not only NY City institution, but also a NY State institution. It's easy to see why the state would pony up $300M for them. But thinking that they'll do the same or anything close for us doesn't make sense given the current economic climate. I think that half of that is a reach.

We'll see, there's nothing we can do about it besides ***** about it anyway.

[Fletch]

Minny state cut a cheque for $500M. I have difficulty believing NY would not do the same.

So you think that the state would spend more on the Bills than on the Yankees?

[SpikedLemonade]

So you think that the state would spend more on the Bills than on the Yankees?

If the votes are there.

[Historian]

I was referring to the new arena in Brooklyn, where the Nets play. I thought the Devils moved there too.

[Fletch]

I was referring to the new arena in Brooklyn, where the Nets play. I thought the Devils moved there too.

Oh, did they, I'm so out of touch with the NBA and NHL.

Either way, how much of the Nets' stadium did the taxpayers pickup? Was it all the financing, or a fraction?

Spiked says "if the votes are there," but we all know that NYC gets what NYC wants at our expense, not visa versa.

[Fletch]

Here's an article about the Nets' arena from late last year;

http://www.fieldofschemes.com/2013/10/01/5989/nyc-development-agency-nets-arena-earning-us-more-than-half-what-its-costing-us-woohoo/

Seems that the taxpayers put up only $170M directly. People here are talking as if $300-500M is chump change and something that the state may do. I don't see it. I think that if they get the $100-and-something million that this arena and the new Yankee stadium got directly in the form of tax money that we'd be doing pretty good. Will that be enough to keep an owner from relocating? I doubt it. That would still be a huge tab, around $1B, for a new stadium.

Maybe Pegula wants to do it, but he won't make money like that. Is he really in it for a hobby?

Here's another article talking about how the arena is losing money, and that's in NYC, which bolsters the known truth that generally speaking these arenas that many here and elsewhere claim make money, really don't make money, the cost a city or county money.

http://www.fieldofschemes.com/2013/12/12/6420/barclays-center-barely-breaking-even-despite-1-arena-ranking/

[Buckets]

This seems to have been a development. We went from saying that he doesn't think we need one, to he won't let the taxpayers pay for one.

I think he needs to qualify that by saying on for the Bills. Since when is Cuomo against spending of any sort.

I'm against taxpayers paying for any business expense for any business, but unfortunately that's not how most politicians and many people think.

Anyway, it sounds like now they'll have to battle the state too, and if they come out on the losing end of that one the slim hopes that I had of the team staying over the long term get even slimmer.

This statement is very interesting in light of TV ads being run in southwest Florida expounding on the new tax relief programs for any "businesses" relocating to New York, apparently subsidizing some business expenses are OK as long as it's not in Western NY.

[better days]

Who gives a crap about any of this?

The Bills will be playing at the Ralph for the next decade.

After the new owner is in place, the talk can start about the Stadium.

And the Governor has also said he would be personally involved in keeping the Bills in Buffalo.

[trapezeus]

part of the tax incentives for business have been bringing people to downtown. small business and bigger businesses alike.

The incentives need to make sense for the area, and long term health of projects need to be connected.

Terry pegula's hockey heaven which involves the harbor center has gotten a marriott built downtown. as they work on the silos, there is a vibrancy that is returning. this idea that buffalo is a sleeping NYC is not what people are going for. it's a small city and always will be. it's a matter of it looking better. There are jobs coming back in the medical field thanks to government investment and in other higher tech fields.

if buffalo can leverage the gigantic campus of youth that is there and continue, they can make a name for themselves. and having a football team THAT IS ALREADY THERE with a stadium that can be converted for convention cetner use, and muster more hotels and restaurants, is ultimately a very good thing for downtown and future investment.

i know nothing about rochester's development, but general consensus on buffalo from non-buffalonians is that it's making a lot of the right moves.

i agree a football stadium by itself isn't going to solve everything. but if it's done right and made to have more use during the year, the tax incentive zones around it will be the things that continue to give the city life.

Lastly, Giants stadium received a huge loan from the NFL. so self funding comes from the billionaires themselves. also, if the lease that was approved by the majority of owners doesn't tip you off that they kind of think its important keep a team in the region, then there is nothing to keep you guys from wanting this team to move so badly.

i don't think it's out of the question that the team moves down the road, but i also don't think it's as bad as some people thought a few years ago (myself included).

[Historian]

Who gives a crap about any of this?

The Bills will be playing at the Ralph for the next decade.

After the new owner is in place, the talk can start about the Stadium.

And the Governor has also said he would be personally involved in keeping the Bills in Buffalo.

Ralph has given us a ten year reprieve.

Get it done, or pretty much lose the team.

The sooner the better, IMO.

[better days]

Ralph has given us a ten year reprieve.

Get it done, or pretty much lose the team.

The sooner the better, IMO.

After Pegula is named owner of the Bills it will put an end to all the BS about the Bills moving.

At least it SHOULD do that.

[chris66]

After Pegula is named owner of the Bills it will put an end to all the BS about the Bills moving.

At least it SHOULD do that.
No .It won't. Here is the reality. Pegulas going yo put up a billion plus for the franchise. His real only source of income is going to be the 150 million each team gets from the league.

He will raise tickets, parking to nfl avg. to try and recoup his investment. Local fans will complain its to expensive, and if the league lifts the blackout rule that will really kill ticket sales.

The only way he makes any money in Buffalo is by hiring cheap coaches and staying near cap floor.

[better days]

No .It won't. Here is the reality. Pegulas going yo put up a billion plus for the franchise. His real only source of income is going to be the 150 million each team gets from the league.

He will raise tickets, parking to nfl avg. to try and recoup his investment. Local fans will complain its to expensive, and if the league lifts the blackout rule that will really kill ticket sales.

The only way he makes any money in Buffalo is by hiring cheap coaches and staying near cap floor.

Yeah, because the Sabres fans have been very vocal in their complaints about ticket prices. LMAO.

[chris66]

Yeah, because the Sabres fans have been very vocal in their complaints about ticket prices. LMAO. The bills will be like the Sabres. Sabres are lucky if they can manage 60 pts in a season and the bills will be the best 5-11 team in the nfl.

One thing higher prices will do is give family's a better game experience. All the drunk college age kids will be priced out.

[better days]

The bills will be like the Sabres. Sabres are lucky if they can manage 60 pts in a season and the bills will be the best 5-11 team in the nfl.

One thing higher prices will do is give family's a better game experience. All the drunk college age kids will be priced out.

The Sabres have bottomed out to get GOOD players.

The Sabres have MANY good players that will soon step up & help them win.

And even though the Sabres had a bad year & will likely have a bad year again next year, they have no problem selling tickets.

The Bills will have no problems selling tickets either.

[YardRat]

It's merely political posturing. Think 'No new taxes!' Anybody that thinks when the chips are down and it's time to pony up state funds for a new stadium that Albany is going to balk is kidding themselves.