Bills Overrated/Underrated Players

[Fletch]

Here's an article by the same writer that BillsImpossible cites in his thread http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/224445-This-Article-Might-Make-You-Feel-Better.

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/224445-This-Article-Might-Make-You-Feel-Better

Mario heads the list of the overrated. Here's what he has to say about Mario;

Overvalued
1. Mario Williams, Outside Linebacker
Williams had another solid season for the Bills, finishing with the 17th-highest grade at his position for the second straight year. Unfortunately, Buffalo is paying for one of the Top 5 edge defenders in the league, not one of the Top 25. Games like his five-sack performance against the Panthers in Week 2 showed how dominant Williams can be, but he also had other games where he was virtually invisible outside of a couple splash plays. His run defense was solid but not spectacular, and his 3.9 Run Stop Percentage (https://www.profootballfocus.com/about/pff-signature-stats/#RunStopPercentage) was the lowest of any Buffalo edge defender. Williams is obviously talented, but unless he becomes disruptive on a more consistent basis, he’ll continue to fall short of his lofty salary.

2013 Cap Hit: $12.4m
2013 Jahnke Value Model: $5.9m
Value Differential: -$6.5m

[Ginger Vitis]

Interesting read although you have mentioned it in another thread perhaps you're trying too hard

[Fletch]

Just responding to a handful of people that insist that Mario's worth anything close to what we're paying him. If I were in charge I'd cut his ass after the season. There's no way he's worth 12/13M per season. Mario hasn't even added a single game to this team's win total.

"Trying to hard" is meaningless.

[Ginger Vitis]

Mario hasn't even added a single game to this team's win total.



I guess you never saw the Bills/Panthers game last year or the Bills/Dolphins game last year in Miami

[jimmifli]

Mario is worth his contract. Because players that are above average, young and play important positions are rarely available.

The demand for double digit sack DEs is approximately equal to the number of teams in the NFL. The availability of perennial double digit sack DEs is quite low, young ones even lower. And so teams that want to add that type of player must pay a fortune, or gamble on draft picks.

[Topas]

^ what he said ....

[Night Train]

He was overpaid... because at the time, no one in their right mind would sign here. Still, I'm glad he's here to help us win.


I guess some people are so busy with their redundant posts of misery that they can't understand that.

[Fletch]

I guess you never saw the Bills/Panthers game last year or the Bills/Dolphins game last year in Miami

So you're saying that without that effort we'd have been 5-11, I agree. Unfortunately we were 6-10 the season prior to getting him and 6-10 in his first season here, so 6-10 is not an improvement or a game better than we were without him here. That's what I meant. Not whether we can go 2-14 with him playing two good games.

Brady gets less than Mario and is responsible in NE for the difference between 6-10 there and making the playoffs every season and being competitive in them. Manning gets paid what Mario gets and look what he did for the Broncos from the year before that. You pay that kind of money for QBs, not DEs that don't even consistently rank in the top-10 at their position.

Oh wait, I take that back, here in Buffalo that makes perfect sense. LOL

[Fletch]

Mario is worth his contract. Because players that are above average, young and play important positions are rarely available.

The demand for double digit sack DEs is approximately equal to the number of teams in the NFL. The availability of perennial double digit sack DEs is quite low, young ones even lower. And so teams that want to add that type of player must pay a fortune, or gamble on draft picks.

That's our current front office's mentality.

So in your world the key is to overpay players that are young. Sounds like you'd fit right in with the front office that's been the problem here for years.

That's not how good teams are built, by paying players twice what they're worth unless they're real game changers consistently. Mario clearly is not by just about everyone's account, he shows up for fewer than half the games and as the piece said, he had the lowest run stop percentage of any Buffalo defender.

It's funny how some of you rationalize things.

By the way, here's the link to that article, I botched it up top.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/02/28/jvm-buffalo-bills/

[TacklingDummy]

Mario's big contract has led to 2 season's of 6-10.

It's all about the damn Quarterback.
Until you have one, the rest really don't matter.

[Fletch]

He was overpaid... because at the time, no one in their right mind would sign here. Still, I'm glad he's here to help us win.

That's another issue. And Mario's made it so that now players want to sign here? Sorry, not seeing it.

Again, you're missing the point. If you're a fan presumably you want the team to put the best that it can on the field. When it pays that kind of money, "highest paid defensive player in the league money," but doesn't get what it pays for, it prevents the team from signing other very good starting players, several of them, to help us move forward.

Right now it's an impossible argument to insist that Mario has helped this team move forward. All he does is log sacks in a handful of games, disappears altogether in others.

In two seasons for Mario there's been only one game that he's gotten a sack in that we've beaten a team with a winning record. One. That was Carolina last season and since no one's picked up on it, they were playing very poorly at the beginning of the season.

Do we really need Mario, for however good he may be, to beat the Fins, 5-11 Cards in '12, 5-11 Browns in '12, and 2-14 Jags in '11? Think that over.

For any fan of this team that wants to see us win, this albatross of a contract for Mario is holding us back. That may be offensive to some of you but it's reality. Then again, that's the difference between us and perennial winners like the Pats, they don't hand out ridiculous contracts like that.

If we have to because we sucks so bad, then how come we don't try to do it for a QB? or MLB?

This isn't complicated, really.

[GingerP]

Of course Williams is overpaid, he is a top player in his prime. That is what happens when you sign one of those guys in FA. Still, it isn't like he is a stiff. He hasn't missed a game in 2 seasons, and had double-digit sacks in both.

I personally don't care what he gets paid (it isn't my money), as long as it doesn't keep the team from doing other things. It isn't like Williams contract is keeping them from signing players, cap room isn't an issue. Unless you are completely delusional, you should recognize he is a good player and makes the team better. What do you care if he earns more than say, Olivier Vernon? He is doing the same job.

[Fletch]

Mario's big contract has led to 2 season's of 6-10.

It's all about the damn Quarterback.
Until you have one, the rest really don't matter.

Exactly. Some people can't see that despite it being obvious. Some people here think that 96M spent on Mario is spent better than the same on Manning or less than two-thirds of it on Brady, indisputably two of NFL history's best QBs. Mario isn't even indisputably one of the best DEs in today's game.

[Fletch]

I personally don't care what he gets paid (it isn't my money), as long as it doesn't keep the team from doing other things. It isn't like Williams contract is keeping them from signing players, cap room isn't an issue. Unless you are completely delusional, you should recognize he is a good player and makes the team better. What do you care if he earns more than say, Olivier Vernon? He is doing the same job.

"He makes the team better" is a relative statement. Kelsay could make the team better. Depends on what you have and had in the position otherwise, doesn't it?

Spikes makes the team better over the nothing that we had last season, but as we'll see he'll leave a whole lot to be desired in the passing game.

It has nothing to do with cap, at least for us, it has to do with what other players you can sign for the same money. With 96M you can get several players that contributed as much in other positions.

Why is this concept so difficult for some people to grasp?

The better teams don't overpay for talent like Mario.

[coastal]

16959

[Fletch]

You got that right coastal.

He's the highest paid defensive player in the league and here are his rankings in sacks since he's been in the NFL. I use sacks because that's all that people evaluate him on, he's not great against the run but that doesn't seem to matter to most people.

Last season: 4th, short of 1st by 6.5 sacks.
2012: 17th, short of 1st by 10
2011: 5 sacks, missed two-thirds of the season with injury
2010: 24th (5-way tie), short of 1st by 7
2009: 16th (2-way tie), short of 1st by 8
2008: 7th (2-way tie), short of 1st by 8
2007: 3rd (2-way tie), short of 1st by 1.5
2006: 82nd (11-way tie), short of 1st by 12.5

He hasn't even come close to matching his highest-paid status.

He's never finished 1st, even last season when we nearly led the league in sacks he wasn't even close. He can't even finish in the top-10.

He was part of that ridiculously overrated NC State Defensive Line featuring him, McCargo, and Lawson who all got drafted in the 1st round with Mario being 1st overall. Not one of the three even came close to living up to their draft status. Is McCargo even playing anymore? Mario makes more money that all three should be making by three times.

[GingerP]

The argument isn't whether Williams is the best defensive player in the NFL. I recognize he isn't.

However, to say he isn't a top player at his position is ridiculous. There have only been 8 players in the NFL who have had double-digit sacks in the last 2 seasons (Mario Williams, Robert Quinn, Justin Houston, John Abraham, Charles Johnson, Greg Hardy, J.J. Watt and Jared Allen). That puts him in pretty good company.

The fact is, Mario is overpaid. However, that doesn't mean he isn't a good player because he is. The Bills are better off having him on the team. They have plenty of cap room, so paying Mario hasn't been an impediment to them acquiring players.

I don't get the argument that he isn't worth having on the team because the team hasn't had a good record. There are good players on bad teams all around the NFL. Should Houston get rid of J.J. Watt because they only won 2 games last year? The Rams are paying big money to Chris Long and haven't been able to win, should they get rid of him and his 33 sacks in the last 3 seasons as well? That argument makes no sense, you don't get better by getting rid of guys who are producing.

[coastal]

Last I checked... football is a team sport. Making a guy the highest paid player in the history of the franchise who gave away a million dollar ring to a white woman and who faked a wrist injury to avoid accountability was nothing more than a PR stunt by a ticket salesman

Mario Williams sucks

[YardRat]

Exactly. Some people can't see that despite it being obvious. Some people here think that 96M spent on Mario is spent better than the same on Manning or less than two-thirds of it on Brady, indisputably two of NFL history's best QBs. Mario isn't even indisputably one of the best DEs in today's game.

I defy you to come up with a single post where a poster made that claim.

[kishoph]

Exactly. Some people can't see that despite it being obvious. Some people here think that 96M spent on Mario is spent better than the same on Manning or less than two-thirds of it on Brady, indisputably two of NFL history's best QBs. Mario isn't even indisputably one of the best DEs in today's game.

I must of missed it, when did we have the chance to sign Manning or Brady ?

[feldspar]

I defy you to come up with a single post where a poster made that claim.

Only in Fletch's head did a poster make that claim.

He actually TOLD me that I think such things in another thread. He must have been hallucinating at the time, 'cuz I didn't say a word about it.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

It has nothing to do with cap, at least for us, it has to do with what other players you can sign for the same money. With 96M you can get several players that contributed as much in other positions.

Such as? We've been sitting on loads of cap space for years, and letting our own talent walk at the same time. who are these players that we could have signed? Remember that the top tier free agents are almost always overpaid (Hi there Mike Wallace!) and the 2nd and 3rd tier FAs produce guys like Spikes and Lawson, both of whom you've called out in this thread already.


The better teams don't overpay for talent like Mario.

Colin Kaepernick
Joe Flacco
Percy Harvin


In two seasons for Mario there's been only one game that he's gotten a sack in that we've beaten a team with a winning record. One. That was Carolina last season and since no one's picked up on it, they were playing very poorly at the beginning of the season.

Do we really need Mario, for however good he may be, to beat the Fins

Apparently we do, seeing as we were 4-6 against them in the 5 years before Mario's arrival. I suppose you can handwave away the Baltimore game too, since they only went 8-8.


If we have to because we sucks so bad, then how come we don't try to do it for a QB? or MLB?


Again, such as? Who are these QB free agents we are supposed to be pursuing?

Comparing Mario's contract to Manning and Brady's is disingenuous. Not only are they 7 and 9 years older than Mario, both of them expressly took less money then their market value because they are ring chasing. If either of them was miraculously a 27 year old free agent this year they would have easily pulled north of $130 million. Even Manning with his broken neck could have pulled 110 for the asking. If Vegas took odds on it, I would bet that Luck will clear $130million himself in a year or two. That's the nature of contract escalation.

We were in a situation where we thought we needed pass rush. We had a league average offense with a bottom 5 pass rush holding our D back. So we picked up the best pass rushing free agent available. See for yourself, here's a 2012 Free Agent Tracker (http://www.footballsfuture.com/2012/fa/track.html)

Anthony Spencer - Franchise tag
Cliff Avril - Franchise tag
Calais Campbell - franchise tag
Robert Mathis - Signed before free agency (that and he's a PED cheater)

So who are you going with? People have a wildly unrealistic expectation of what's available in free agency.

[Ginger Vitis]

Only in Fletch's head did a poster make that claim.


Yes a tactic and strategy several "realists" use..Claim some or most posters believe in one thing so the "realist" can take the opposite view in a attempt to make themselves appear smart and all knowing when the reality is it is just ONE poster who disagrees with the "realist" view

[jills]

I must of missed it, when did we have the chance to sign Manning or Brady ?

2012?

[IlluminatusUIUC]

2012?

We had zero chance of signing Manning. Zero. What exactly would we have offered him?

[stuckincincy]

We had zero chance of signing Manning. Zero. What exactly would we have offered him?

The Jills?

[IlluminatusUIUC]

The Jills?

If Manning took us to a Super Bowl, he would have his pick of Buffalo's women for the rest of his life.

[YardRat]

If Manning took us to a Super Bowl, he would have his pick of Buffalo's women for the rest of his life.

Probably men, also...

[Fletch]

The fact is, Mario is overpaid. However, that doesn't mean he isn't a good player because he is. The Bills are better off having him on the team.

If he was on a $300M contract the Bills might be better off with him on the team.

Why is this such a difficult concept for you to wrap your noodle around? Seriously?

It's not about whether or not the team is better of with him (or any player) on the team, it's about what other good players they could get instead with the money that they pay him. He's getting paid damn near $100M dollars, which is about three-fourths of an entire salary cap.

Do you really struggle to think what collection of players we could get for the same money?

So you're saying that the collective total of all other players we could get for that money still aren't as good as Mario?

To me that's one of the dumbest things that anyone could possibly assert given how Mario plays, namely invisible for half the season.

Here is the list of teams that we've beaten in games that Mario's had sacks in:

2012:

Arizona 5-11
Cleveland 5-11
Miami 7-9
Jax 2-14

2013:

Miami 8-8
Baltimore 8-8
Carolina 12-4

We've beaten one team in games that Mario's gotten a sack. So to believe what you're selling we have to believe that we couldn't have beaten those teams without Mario. If that's true then that's pretty sad and we're much worse than we all think.

Carolina was the only good offensive team in the bunch that we beat and they were struggling in the early going last season.

- - - Updated - - -


Probably men, also...

I didn't realize that there was a huge difference between Buffalo men and women.

[Fletch]

I defy you to come up with a single post where a poster made that claim.

People have difficulty focusing on single arguments here.

[Fletch]

Yes a tactic and strategy several "realists" use..Claim some or most posters believe in one thing so the "realist" can take the opposite view in a attempt to make themselves appear smart and all knowing when the reality is it is just ONE poster who disagrees with the "realist" view

It's no wonder that many peoples' expectations at the beginning of every season are ridiculously inflated here.

[YardRat]

If he was on a $300M contract the Bills might be better off with him on the team.

Why is this such a difficult concept for you to wrap your noodle around? Seriously?

It's not about whether or not the team is better of with him (or any player) on the team, it's about what other good players they could get instead with the money that they pay him. He's getting paid damn near $100M dollars, which is about three-fourths of an entire salary cap.

Do you really struggle to think what collection of players we could get for the same money?

So you're saying that the collective total of all other players we could get for that money still aren't as good as Mario?

To me that's one of the dumbest things that anyone could possibly assert given how Mario plays, namely invisible for half the season.

Here is the list of teams that we've beaten in games that Mario's had sacks in:

2012:

Arizona 5-11
Cleveland 5-11
Miami 7-9
Jax 2-14

2013:

Miami 8-8
Baltimore 8-8
Carolina 12-4

We've beaten one team in games that Mario's gotten a sack. So to believe what you're selling we have to believe that we couldn't have beaten those teams without Mario. If that's true then that's pretty sad and we're much worse than we all think.

Carolina was the only good offensive team in the bunch that we beat and they were struggling in the early going last season.

- - - Updated - - -



I didn't realize that there was a huge difference between Buffalo men and women.

You might want to double-check your 'facts'.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

He's getting paid damn near $100M dollars, which is about three-fourths of an entire salary cap.

He's not getting $100 million a year, so I'm not sure why you're comparing it to a single year's cap figure.


Do you really struggle to think what collection of players we could get for the same money?

Apparently you do, because I asked you to name some and you haven't. What players could we have gotten for the same money? Keeping in mind we were $20 million under last season and 7.5 under right now.

[Fletch]

You might want to double-check your 'facts'.

Yeah, typo, ... obviously. You couldn't figure that out since I listed "more than one" team? Really?

Is that the extent of your argument?

I'll help you out, one good team. I'll also be redundant and restate that that good team was playing poorly during the season when we played them.

Would you like to jump in on the actual crux of the matter? Do you think that we really needed Mario to beat the other teams in that list? Yes or no?

If yes, don't you think that would be a little sad then, if we could only beat crappy teams with Mario?

[pmoon6]

Overrated: Most Bills' Fans that think they are part of the best fanbase in the NFL.

Underated: The small percentage of fans that support their team, win, lose or draw. The so called "homers" and supposed "delusional" thinkers that aren't looking to pimp their big brains as opposed to the self aggrandizing douchebags that think they actually know something.

[Fletch]

He's not getting $100 million a year, so I'm not sure why you're comparing it to a single year's cap figure.

Apparently you do, because I asked you to name some and you haven't. What players could we have gotten for the same money? Keeping in mind we were $20 million under last season and 7.5 under right now.

Come on, really?

Both of those points in isolation are irrelevant. The reference to the salary cap was purely for perspective.

As to the second part, who knows, we'd have to go back and look at the free agent market in 2012.

But since you and others are struggling so mightily in getting your arms around this, let's use an analogy.

Let's suppose that you've got $100K and you wanted to do something fun with it and get as much fun as possible.

You can easily blow that on private airfare let's say to Europe, for you and a friend, on a private jet, RT. Then rent a private yacht and stay somewhere that rents for say $5/day. Let's say that after a week you'll have spent it all including your return airfare.

Let me ask you, can you possibly think of any way to get a whole lot more from that same $100K? I'm not sure about you, but I could easily travel Europe for two people on that for a year.

It's not a perfect analogy, but it works. You would argue that you had a lot of fun, but I would argue that you could have had a whole lot more. Remember, your goal was fun. Our goal here is winning. Mario hasn't even proven that we win more games with him. For that kind of money you damn well better win extra games, plural.

It really is very simple but you guys all keep getting off the main point.

[YardRat]

Yeah, typo, ... obviously. You couldn't figure that out since I listed "more than one" team? Really?

Is that the extent of your argument?

I'll help you out, one good team. I'll also be redundant and restate that that good team was playing poorly during the season when we played them.

Would you like to jump in on the actual crux of the matter? Do you think that we really needed Mario to beat the other teams in that list? Yes or no?

If yes, don't you think that would be a little sad then, if we could only beat crappy teams with Mario?

I figured it was a typo, but felt like pointing it out anyway.

Were you in favor of re-signign Byrd and Levitre, or are you willing to pose the same argument for them that you do Mario?

FWIW, when Mario initially signed I was a little stunned, and usually fall on the same side of the fence as you...that's a lot of money to spend on one player, and it could have been spent on two...or three. I would normally want to upgrade three spots instead of just one.

Mario will probably never live up to his contract, unless he really catches fire and cements a place in the HOF while concurrently the team makes, and progresses through, the playoffs....that's a long shot. But, that's three seasons ago, and the water is too far under the bridge to ***** about it now. It is what it is. As to your final point, it's a little difficult to point out specific games where individual players actual did something to help secure a win, and surmise whether or not we would have won or lost without him. It's a team game.

I know Mario was paid to rush the passer, which obviously he has done well at and the team has improved in that aspect...and set the edge, which he has also done very well at, so regardless of whether someone perceives if he is worth the contract dollars or not, he is at least doing what he was brought here to do.

[better days]

Come on, really?

Both of those points in isolation are irrelevant. The reference to the salary cap was purely for perspective.

As to the second part, who knows, we'd have to go back and look at the free agent market in 2012.

But since you and others are struggling so mightily in getting your arms around this, let's use an analogy.

Let's suppose that you've got $100K and you wanted to do something fun with it and get as much fun as possible.

You can easily blow that on private airfare let's say to Europe, for you and a friend, on a private jet, RT. Then rent a private yacht and stay somewhere that rents for say $5/day. Let's say that after a week you'll have spent it all including your return airfare.

Let me ask you, can you possibly think of any way to get a whole lot more from that same $100K? I'm not sure about you, but I could easily travel Europe for two people on that for a year.

It's not a perfect analogy, but it works. You would argue that you had a lot of fun, but I would argue that you could have had a whole lot more. Remember, your goal was fun. Our goal here is winning. Mario hasn't even proven that we win more games with him. For that kind of money you damn well better win extra games, plural.

It really is very simple but you guys all keep getting off the main point.

Here is the main point.

Mario is a GOOD player.

YES he is over paid, but the Bills have the money to pay him.

It is not like his contract is keeping the Bills from signing any other player that could help the team win.

[coastal]

It is not like his contract is keeping the Bills from signing any other player that could help the team win.Andy Levitre and Jarius Byrd would beg to differ.


:rofl:

[coastal]

Mario will probably never live up to his contract
Agreed.

the essence of Fool's Gold.

[sudzy]

Andy Levitre and Jarius Byrd would beg to differ.


:rofl:

I don't think Byrd was going to re-sign here no matter how much money they threw at him

[better days]

Andy Levitre and Jarius Byrd would beg to differ.


:rofl:

BS. Mario's contract did not prevent the Bills from signing either of them

The Bills had the money to pay them both, they just decided they were not worth the money.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

As to the second part, who knows, we'd have to go back and look at the free agent market in 2012.

I already gave you a link to a free agent tracker, but here it is again: http://www.footballsfuture.com/2012/fa/track.html

You've got 100 million in contracts to play with, go nuts.


But since you and others are struggling so mightily in getting your arms around this, let's use an analogy.

I understand your point fine. You are ignoring that it is a natural consequence of trying to snag the creme of the free agent crop. The top guys in every FA period get enormous contracts. If you want to snag the second and third tier guys for cheap, that's fine, but those guys rarely make a significant impact. Remember Brad Smith? Kawika Mitchell? Tashard Choice? Doug Legursky? All lower tier cheap FAs.


Let's suppose that you've got $100K and you wanted to do something fun with it and get as much fun as possible.

You can easily blow that on private airfare let's say to Europe, for you and a friend, on a private jet, RT. Then rent a private yacht and stay somewhere that rents for say $5/day. Let's say that after a week you'll have spent it all including your return airfare.

Let me ask you, can you possibly think of any way to get a whole lot more from that same $100K? I'm not sure about you, but I could easily travel Europe for two people on that for a year.

It's not a perfect analogy, but it works.

It's a horrendous analogy because you are missing the critical components of free agency: scarcity, competition, and the other's guys preferences. In the real world, your options are virtually unlimited and no one is going to refuse your cash, so it's extremely easy to picture an alternate scenario where you travel around Europe.

But imagine there were only these tour packages left: One that takes you to Las Vegas all-inclusive, one that takes you to Indianapolis, and one that takes you to the middle of North Dakota to stare at oil derricks. But there's 31 other guys with money in their pocket, some of whom have even more money then you, bidding on the trip to Vegas. And even if you are the high bid to Vegas, the airline can still go "Nah, I'm not really interested in taking you, I'm gonna fly that other guy instead."

That's the issue with free agency. As much as you smash on Mario, he's still an extremely talented player at a high-value position that don't hit the UFA market with any frequency. And we are a franchise in the dumps in a high-tax state that has little to recommend it outside large bags of money. Miami can sell players on the nightlife. Dallas can sell players on history and low taxes. Green Bay can sell playing with Rodgers. Buffalo has to say "Here's another zero on that check."


Andy Levitre and Jarius Byrd would beg to differ.

We still could have afforded them. Letting them walk was due to lack of will, not lack of funds.

[coastal]

BS. Mario's contract did not prevent the Bills from signing either of them

The Bills had the money to pay them both, they just decided they were not worth the money.
:rofl:

sure thing.

[better days]

:rofl:

sure thing.

FACT.

LMAO at you, thinking the Bills have EVER been up against the cap.

[Fletch]

I'll summarize in response. Everything has to be same season for you, which makes no sense.


I already gave you a link to a free agent tracker, but here it is again: http://www.footballsfuture.com/2012/fa/track.html

You've got 100 million in contracts to play with, go nuts.

Your link doesn't work and there are no dollar/contract figures in it, so it's irrelevant. There are much better links, like rotoworld for example. Either way, it's irrelevant despite your insistance that it is. Mario's contract calls for $12M annually, in cash as salary. That's real money every year AFTER his $19M signing bonus which is water under the dam. His salary money is not.


I understand your point fine. You are ignoring that it is a natural consequence of trying to snag the creme of the free agent crop. The top guys in every FA period get enormous contracts. If you want to snag the second and third tier guys for cheap, that's fine, but those guys rarely make a significant impact. Remember Brad Smith? Kawika Mitchell? Tashard Choice? Doug Legursky? All lower tier cheap FAs.

It doesn't seem like you understand it if you think that Mario's worth $12M+ per season. No one else does. Who would pay that for his level of play? Only a desperate team, definitely not a contender.

Also, who said anything about 2nd and 3rd tier guys? What about first tier guys, just not the ones with the biggest impression in the media?

Look at Seattle's roster, how many players that are the very best at their position do you see there? What do you think that means?

As someone else pointed out, it's a team game, not a game built around two or three players despite the delusions of some Bills fans. Except for QB, it just doesn't work that way. Even then a QB has to have so much around him to succeed. Putting Peyton Manning on this team wouldn't make us 13-3 like the Broncos were last year, they're better in most other positions.

I never said "cheap," you said that. I said competent and qualified to start. Not one of those players was a legitimate starter and at least one, Mitchell, was also way overpaid by us. Also, remember how everyone raved about him here? Much more than they're raving about Rivers.


It's a horrendous analogy because you are missing the critical components of free agency: scarcity, competition, and the other's guys preferences.

Hardly. Instead, you're missing how other teams do it entirely. Again, look at the Seahawks roster and tell me what you see? I see a teamful of very capable talent, average or better overall, with few superstars, and with those that are being young, but that can put it all together as a team. I see Wilson, Lynch who's good but hardly great, Sherman, who's one of the best, and Thomas. The rest are those "second and third tier guys" that you are talking about.

Their receivers and TE, Tate, Baldwin, Rice, and Miller aren't much better than ours and only are because they have some experience, not because one of them is that great.

Their DL is nothing but those third tier players that you're talking about.

You see exactly the opposite as to how to build a winner.


That's the issue with free agency. As much as you smash on Mario, he's still an extremely talented player at a high-value position that don't hit the UFA market with any frequency.

He hasn't lived up to that "rare-ness" that you mention.

The Seahawks line of Red Bryant, Tony McDaniel, Brandon Mebane, and Chris Clemons on paper can't hold a candle to our defensive linemen. One 3rd-round draft pick, one 4th-round draft pick, two undrafted free agents, two of the four were inexpensive free agents (relatively speaking)

Clemons was so good that Seattle let him go to Jax for a few million a year.
Mebane's getting $5.5M per year this and next year.
McDaniel just signed a 2-year $5.75M deal.
Bryant just signed a 4-year $19M deal with only $5M guaranteed.

By what you're saying, the fact that the Seahawks won games much less the Super Bowl last year was impossible. By what I'm saying a good front office knows how to do this.

By the way, their tackle Giacomini that the Jets signed is exactly one of those players that I'm talking about. 4 years $18M.

Anyway, go ahead and try it with their LBs too, and their DBs after Thomas and Sherman.

So say what you want about Mario, the facts are that we he's helped us beat one team with a winning record in games that he's gotten sacks in in two seasons. That was Carolina, and as I pointed out, they struggled at the beginning of last season even getting dusted by the Cardinals early in the season while starting 1-3.

To think that Mario's worth it you have to think that he's worth $12.5M per season, and I haven't found anyone that thinks he's worth that except here.

[coastal]

FACT.

LMAO at you, thinking the Bills have EVER been up against the cap.
Who is talking cap **** for brains?

[better days]

Who is talking cap **** for brains?

You & I were IDIOT.

I said Mario's contract did not leave the Bills short of money to sign other players.

You scoffed at that FACT. The fact is the Bills had/have the money to sign just about any player available that they want.

Mario's contract did not stop them from signing anyone they WANTED to sign.

[coastal]

You & I were IDIOT.

I said Mario's contract did not leave the Bills short of money to sign other players.

You scoffed at that FACT. The fact is the Bills had/have the money to sign just about any player available that they want.

Mario's contract did not stop them from signing anyone they WANTED to sign.show me the operating budget.

you know... cash to crap.

[pmoon6]

show me the operating budget.

you know... cash to crap.You know a poster is on thin ice when they start using Spiked Lemonade's phrases.

[Night Train]

You know a poster is on thin ice when they start using Spiked Lemonade's phrases.

Or it's one of 25 aliases.

You do realize there's only 40 actual people here, despite hundreds of registered users. :up:

[Fletch]

Or it's one of 25 aliases.

You do realize there's only 40 actual people here, despite hundreds of registered users. :up:

LOL

That would explain a lot.

[chris66]

Just responding to a handful of people that insist that Mario's worth anything close to what we're paying him. If I were in charge I'd cut his ass after the season. There's no way he's worth 12/13M per season. Mario hasn't even added a single game to this team's win total.

"Trying to hard" is meaningless.

People knew as soon as that contract was signed Mario was never going to live up to that contract.

That was we have money and need to get fannies in the seats move

[Fletch]

People knew as soon as that contract was signed Mario was never going to live up to that contract.

That was we have money and need to get fannies in the seats move

Exactly, so now that they're doing better at that and have other more impressive draws, time to move on. Salary cap hits are almost meaningless except to the handful of teams close to the cap. The actual cash saved would be huge, just that, upwards of $12M per season.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Your link doesn't work and there are no dollar/contract figures in it, so it's irrelevant.

:rofl: So you claim you can't get through the link but claim to know what is there anyway? Sure, sounds legit. And it does have contract figures there, that's why I picked that link over Rotoworld's 2012 FA list which did not.


Mario's contract calls for $12M annually, in cash as salary. That's real money every year AFTER his $19M signing bonus which is water under the dam. His salary money is not.

I'm aware what his contract is.


Also, who said anything about 2nd and 3rd tier guys? What about first tier guys, just not the ones with the biggest impression in the media?

Who are the first tier guys that come cheap in free agency? Unless they are explicitly ring chasing ala Wes Welker, the best talent gets big contracts in free agency. Look at the guys that hit the market, the vast majority are old, injured, busts, or head cases. The guys who are none of those things either get tagged like Graham or Hardy, or they get large deals.

When you go into free agency, you are always rolling the dice on something. You either skim off the top and hope they live up to the large deal you need to offer to sign them, or you fish around looking for reclamation projects like Brandon Spikes.


As someone else pointed out, it's a team game, not a game built around two or three players despite the delusions of some Bills fans.

So why do you keep blaming Mario when he gets a sack but we don't win? It's a team game, after all. Yet you keep saying stuff like this:


So say what you want about Mario, the facts are that we he's helped us beat one team with a winning record in games that he's gotten sacks in in two seasons. That was Carolina, and as I pointed out, they struggled at the beginning of last season even getting dusted by the Cardinals early in the season while starting 1-3.


I never said "cheap," you said that. I said competent and qualified to start. Not one of those players was a legitimate starter and at least one, Mitchell, was also way overpaid by us. Also, remember how everyone raved about him here? Much more than they're raving about Rivers.

I can't speak for how everyone was raving about Mitchell here, I didn't join this forum until two years after he left the team. But I never saw anyone at any other board claiming Mitchell was anything special.


Hardly. Instead, you're missing how other teams do it entirely. Again, look at the Seahawks roster and tell me what you see? I see a teamful of very capable talent, average or better overall, with few superstars, and with those that are being young, but that can put it all together as a team. I see Wilson, Lynch who's good but hardly great, Sherman, who's one of the best, and Thomas. The rest are those "second and third tier guys" that you are talking about.

Then you're not watching them play football. Bobby Wagner, Kam Chancellor and Max Unger are elite starters and Cliff Avril and Michael Bennett are excellent subs. And if Lynch is good but not great, I want to know what qualifies as great. In the three full seasons he's played with the Seahawks, the guy has 39 touchdowns and 4700+ all purpose yards.


Their receivers and TE, Tate, Baldwin, Rice, and Miller aren't much better than ours and only are because they have some experience, not because one of them is that great.

You conveniently left off Percy Harvin, probably because spending a first, a third, and a $67 million contract on a wideout who's completed one season blows a giant hole in your point. But carry on.


Their DL is nothing but those third tier players that you're talking about.

Sure, if you ignore their pass rushing specialists then their DL is nothing special. But nobody claims the strength of the Seahawks is their line - their D is clearly built from the back.


He hasn't lived up to that "rare-ness" that you mention.

Go back and look at the top 20 pass rushers last year. The only two who were not on their original teams were Williams and Hughes. And of them the only one allowed to hit the market was Justin Tuck, at 31 years old.

Paying big in free agency


By the way, their tackle Giacomini that the Jets signed is exactly one of those players that I'm talking about. 4 years $18M.

Giacomini is also a very average player. Average is fine if your QB and HB are really good, but he's not going to suddenly make RT a strength for any team he goes to.


Anyway, go ahead and try it with their LBs too, and their DBs after Thomas and Sherman.

I already mentioned Bobby Wagner and Kam Chancellor. The latter had a huge pick in the Super Bowl and made the All-Pro team so I have no idea how you missed him.

It's also worth noting that Seattle has also had to hand out monster deals to Sherman and Thomas, and will soon have to do the same with Wilson, Wagner, and possibly Lynch. Ask again in two years.

[pmoon6]

Or it's one of 25 aliases.

You do realize there's only 40 actual people here, despite hundreds of registered users. :up::rofl:

[better days]

Exactly, so now that they're doing better at that and have other more impressive draws, time to move on. Salary cap hits are almost meaningless except to the handful of teams close to the cap. The actual cash saved would be huge, just that, upwards of $12M per season.

So what is better, to save the cash or have a GOOD player on the team?

As Fletch said & I said before, the Bills are not close to the cap & have no need to save cash.

[Fletch]

:rofl: So you claim you can't get through the link but claim to know what is there anyway? Sure, sounds legit. And it does have contract figures there, that's why I picked that link over Rotoworld's 2012 FA list which did not.

No, I go thru just fine, I wasn't sure whether it was a subscription link or not.

[Fletch]

:rofl: So you claim you can't get through the link but claim to know what is there anyway? Sure, sounds legit. And it does have contract figures there, that's why I picked that link over Rotoworld's 2012 FA list which did not.



I'm aware what his contract is.



Who are the first tier guys that come cheap in free agency? Unless they are explicitly ring chasing ala Wes Welker, the best talent gets big contracts in free agency. Look at the guys that hit the market, the vast majority are old, injured, busts, or head cases. The guys who are none of those things either get tagged like Graham or Hardy, or they get large deals.

When you go into free agency, you are always rolling the dice on something. You either skim off the top and hope they live up to the large deal you need to offer to sign them, or you fish around looking for reclamation projects like Brandon Spikes.



So why do you keep blaming Mario when he gets a sack but we don't win? It's a team game, after all. Yet you keep saying stuff like this:




I can't speak for how everyone was raving about Mitchell here, I didn't join this forum until two years after he left the team. But I never saw anyone at any other board claiming Mitchell was anything special.



Then you're not watching them play football. Bobby Wagner, Kam Chancellor and Max Unger are elite starters and Cliff Avril and Michael Bennett are excellent subs. And if Lynch is good but not great, I want to know what qualifies as great. In the three full seasons he's played with the Seahawks, the guy has 39 touchdowns and 4700+ all purpose yards.



You conveniently left off Percy Harvin, probably because spending a first, a third, and a $67 million contract on a wideout who's completed one season blows a giant hole in your point. But carry on.



Sure, if you ignore their pass rushing specialists then their DL is nothing special. But nobody claims the strength of the Seahawks is their line - their D is clearly built from the back.



Go back and look at the top 20 pass rushers last year. The only two who were not on their original teams were Williams and Hughes. And of them the only one allowed to hit the market was Justin Tuck, at 31 years old.

Paying big in free agency



Giacomini is also a very average player. Average is fine if your QB and HB are really good, but he's not going to suddenly make RT a strength for any team he goes to.



I already mentioned Bobby Wagner and Kam Chancellor. The latter had a huge pick in the Super Bowl and made the All-Pro team so I have no idea how you missed him.

It's also worth noting that Seattle has also had to hand out monster deals to Sherman and Thomas, and will soon have to do the same with Wilson, Wagner, and possibly Lynch. Ask again in two years.

By the way, I didn't comment on the rest of your stuff because I've concluded that you're either dense or just not paying attention. In your zeal to prove yourself a genius here you've inadvertently answered some of your own questions, apart from having taken much of the rest out of the context of the Seahawks having won the Super Bowl last season.

Harvin was a non-factor due to injury. So that's irrelevant.

Great points on Bobby Wagner, 4 years $4.3M. Think we can do that sometime? How many Bobby Wagners can we get for Mario's $96M.

Kam Chancellor, 5 years $29M, about the same as Aaron Williams. Who do you think is better at his position? How many Kam Chancellors can we get for Mario's $96M? I'll help you out, 3. Which would be worth more, 3 KCs or one Mario?

Max Unger, 5 years $25M. Less than Wood.


Who are the first tier guys that come cheap in free agency? Unless they are explicitly ring chasing ala Wes Welker, the best talent gets big contracts in free agency. Look at the guys that hit the market, the vast majority are old, injured, busts, or head cases. The guys who are none of those things either get tagged like Graham or Hardy, or they get large deals.

OOPS!

Otherwise, it's not about cheap necessarily, but what you can get for your money. I'm sorry if you think that all we could get for $96M was Mario, but many people, especially outside of Buffalo, disagree.

I just showed you, by your own information, and using your estimation of "elite," that Seattle has an elite C, an elite MLB, and an elite SS, three of the most key positions in football, all for the money that we paid Mario with nearly $40M left over, but we're all to understand that this is not possible.

OK, you win.

[Fletch]

By the way, Wager had more tackles than Kiko over the last 8 weeks of the season according to rotoworld.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Harvin was a non-factor due to injury. So that's irrelevant.

I love that you just declare points you don't like irrelevant. Harvin was expensive as all hell for the Seahawks. A 6year/$64/m deal and they traded a first and third to get him. He has the highest cap figure on the team for the next two years, pending Wilson's deal. Yet it did not hold them back when it came time to drop the money of Sherman and Thomas.

A large free agent contract cripples a team, right? Isn't that what I'm supposed to get from your posts?


Great points on Bobby Wagner, 4 years $4.3M. Think we can do that sometime? How many Bobby Wagners can we get for Mario's $96M.

Sure, if you draft him. Wagner's on his rookie capped deal for another season before he can re-negotiate, the same as Russell Wilson, Luke Kuechly, and Andrew Luck. Hey, how about we sign Andrew Luck for 4yrs/$22M like the Colts did. Sounds easy enough, right?



Kam Chancellor, 5 years $29M, about the same as Aaron Williams. Who do you think is better at his position? How many Kam Chancellors can we get for Mario's $96M? I'll help you out, 3. Which would be worth more, 3 KCs or one Mario?

I'm aware Chanceller is better than Aaron Williams, I said as much when we signed AW to that deal. And that's a top 10 safety contract for Chancellor.


Max Unger, 5 years $25M. Less than Wood.

Unger's extension was for 4 years, not 5, which puts it in the same range as Wood's deal - in the Top 5 for centers around the league.


I just showed you, by your own information, and using your estimation of "elite," that Seattle has an elite C, an elite MLB, and an elite SS, three of the most key positions in football, all for the money that we paid Mario with nearly $40M left over, but we're all to understand that this is not possible.

Strong safety and center are important positions, but they are not highly-valued ones. The fact that you didn't even know who those guys were speaks to that. Some positions earn more than others, due to the scarcity of the guys who can play it. QB, 4-3 DE/3-4 OLB, CB, LT, and Flanker WR are highest-cost positions. That's why even moderately successful QBs like Jay Cutler and Colin Kaepernick get north of $100 million deals and Earl Thomas, who is better at every single facet of his position then either of those two can hope for, gets only $40M.

If you want to know why the Seahawks got so good, it's not that complicated. They absolutely curbstomped the draft. When you are pulling an all-pro lockdown corner out of the 5th round, an all pro safety out of the 5th round, a franchise QB from the 3rd, and getting Lynch for a bag of hockey pucks from us, then you are going to look very good very quickly and on the cheap. That gravy train is coming to an end though, they gave out $160 million in contracts to three guys in the last year (Harvin, Thomas, Sherman) and they still have Wagner, Wilson, and Okung among others due for deals in the next two years. They may very well keep them all, but this idea that Seattle is somehow getting elite FA talent cheaply is just not true. Remember Matt Flynn? They are drafting extremely well, and living off the savings from the rookie cap.

You talk about what we could get for our money, but you've bashed every single method the Bills have tried. When they signed AW and Wood to extensions before they became free agents, you bashed it. When they chased a top tier free agent like Mario, you bashed it. When they signed a bunch of 2nd and 3rd tier guys like Lawson and Spikes, you bashed that too. You praise the Giacomini signing, are the Corey Graham and Alan Branch signings not right at the same level? They are cheap vets who have played average careers on elite teams.

- - - Updated - - -


By the way, Wager had more tackles than Kiko over the last 8 weeks of the season according to rotoworld.

Wagner is a better player than Kiko.