These Numbers Worry Me The Most About The Future of The Bills In Buffalo

[BillsImpossible]

I hate to break it down this way, Buffalo...but the numbers don't add up.

98 percent of the time, I'm a freaking homer and always try to think positive.

But 2 percent of the time my brain says, "Hold on a minute."

Since 1970, Erie County has lost about 200,000 residents.

http://www2.erie.gov/index.php?q=erie-county-overview

PopulationThe Bureau of Census population statistics for Erie County are as follows:

<tbody style="border-top-width: 1px; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204);">
Year
Population


1970
1,113,491


1980
1,015,472


1990
968,532


2000
950,265


2010
919,040




2011 Estimate
918,028

</tbody>
This is NOT what worries me the most about the future of the Buffalo Bills.

Come the next Census in 2020, Erie County COULD/MIGHT experience a slight increase in population.

What worries me the most are these numbers:


<tbody style="border-top-width: 1px; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204);">
Ten Largest Employers In WNY



Organization

Employees


State of New York
25,244


United States Government
10,000


Kaleida Health
8,439


SUNY at Buffalo
7,106


Catholic Health Systems
6,286


Employer Services Corporation
6,271


Tops Markets LLC
5,117


City of Buffalo Schools
4,949


M & T Bank
4,593


Erie County Government
4,304

</tbody>

51,603 taxpayer derived government paychecks out of 82,309 jobs is not good for business.

63% of all Erie County employees get a taxpayer derived, government funded check.

I did not include Kaleida Health or Catholic Health Systems even though they do take Medicaid and are reliant upon taxpayers to pay their bills.

81% of Erie County's economy is dependent on government.

Only 19% - less than 1 in 5 people in Erie County are self sufficient.

Here is a list of the top 10 privately owned companies in Erie County.

http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/feature/top-private-companies/northeast/buffalo

The Seneca Niagara Casino is in Niagara County, but I'll factor that into the equation because I'm feeling sympathetic.

Add up all of the top 10 privately owned companies in Erie County.

A Grand Total of.....25,987 people are employed by privately owned businesses in Erie County.

The State of NY alone employs 25,244 government jobs in Erie County.

I'm not sold.

[SpikedLemonade]

Only one or two of those top 10 employers would be interested in a corporate suite at a football stadium.

AND Canadian based businesses have absolutely no interest in 10 year leases in a corporate suite in Buffalo.

Perhaps Celino & Barnes will take three themselves?

[Turf]

You could live in a **** hole like Chicago where 30+ people get shot every weekend for fun. Where's our leaders when you need them.

[BillsImpossible]

You could live in a **** hole like Chicago where 30+ people get shot every weekend for fun. Where's our leaders when you need them.

Our leaders are all blackmailed. That's how the game works. That is why they're in power. But that's besides the point!

Small businesses account for about 75% of the American workforce.

Government jobs and corporate jobs account for only about 25% of America's workforce.

The opposite is true in Erie County.

The only new businesses I've seen lately are bottle and can return shops.....and they look like hell on Sheridan Drive.

[Fletch]

You could live in a **** hole like Chicago where 30+ people get shot every weekend for fun. Where's our leaders when you need them.

Strangely, Buffalo ranked as the 11th most dangerous city and Chicago wasn't ahead of it.

http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/news/2013/06/21/fbi-stats-show-buffalo-with-11th-worst.html?s=image_gallery

[Fletch]

Toronto is America's equivalent of Boston, that's what worries me.

[BillsImpossible]

Follow the money.

Where is the money headed in Erie County?

South of the city of Buffalo.

Cabela's is going to be opening this August, right across from the Galleria Mall on Duke Road.

After almost ten years of Bass Pro Buffalo bullcrap, Cabela's built a new store in Cheektowaga in less than 6 months.

I am good friends with a man who owns a lot of property in Erie County, and other States. He is almost 90 years old, owns millions of dollars worth of property all over the country, and still to this day refuses to do business in the city of Buffalo.

Ralph Wilson didn't build the stadium in downtown Buffalo because of the typical BS politics that have driven the cities of Buffalo and Niagara Falls over the waters edge.

It was a done deal for Ralph Wilson, Jr. to build a new stadium in Buffalo, until some greaseball political hack wanted a handout back in the 1970's.

Unfortunately, nothing has changed.

"The biggest obstacle in Buffalo is the government itself."

[BertSquirtgum]

Your threads worry me about your sanity.

[BillsImpossible]

How many people here on the Billszone are employed by a small business?

How many are employed by Uncle Sam or the good old State of New York government?

I own a small business and haven't taken a vacation in 18 years. A few years back I took 3 days off for personal reasons.

I had multiple people call me to ask if I went out of business. That was their first question.

I HATE the negative business mentality people have in WNY.

Only does an outsider realize what we have in the palm of our hands.

Wake up, Buffalo.

And get a real job.

[BillsImpossible]

Your threads worry me about your sanity.

Let me guess...you used to work for AM&A's for 20 years, got laid off and now you can't get up off of your fat government check dependent ass because you're depressed an hooked on government paid for meds.

Get a job.

[Novacane]

haven't you seen the commercials BI? NY is now open for business :lmao:

[PromoTheRobot]

I guess neither BI or Novacane have been to Buffalo in a while. The new Medical Campus downtown with 10,000 new professional jobs, Elon Musk building his new Solar City plant at Riverbend, Yahoo building a data center in Lockport, Geico, real estate prices skyrocketing in some parts of the city, the Harborcenter, Canalside, etc. Buffalo is definitely turning around. It's not where it was in the 40's and 50's but you have to start somewhere. Stop looking at old stats and look for yourself.

[BertSquirtgum]

Let me guess...you used to work for AM&A's for 20 years, got laid off and now you can't get up off of your fat government check dependent ass because you're depressed an hooked on government paid for meds.

Get a job.

I work for a municipality. So technically, I do get a government check. Don't get so butt hurt because you're threads sucks.

[YardRat]

Declining population and public jobs overcoming private are two very legitimate concerns.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

What worries me the most are these numbers:


<tbody>
Ten Largest Employers In WNY


Organization
Employees


State of New York
25,244


United States Government
10,000


Kaleida Health
8,439


SUNY at Buffalo
7,106


Catholic Health Systems
6,286


Employer Services Corporation
6,271


Tops Markets LLC
5,117


City of Buffalo Schools
4,949


M & T Bank
4,593


Erie County Government
4,304

</tbody>

51,603 taxpayer derived government paychecks out of 82,309 jobs is not good for business.

63% of all Erie County employees get a taxpayer derived, government funded check.

I did not include Kaleida Health or Catholic Health Systems even though they do take Medicaid and are reliant upon taxpayers to pay their bills.

81% of Erie County's economy is dependent on government.

Only 19% - less than 1 in 5 people in Erie County are self sufficient.

I agree Buffalo's economy is still sruggling, but you seem to be assuming that the top 10 Employers are the only employers and are completely ignoring all the context of those numbers. Saying the largest employer in a large city is it's own government is not really that big a shocker. Rarely does any one company employ tens or hundreds of thousands of people in the same city, but the local government easily can.

For example: The top employer in Los Angeles County is Los Angeles County (http://www.laalmanac.com/employment/em21e.htm)

The top employer in New York City is New York City (http://www.businessinsider.com/new-york-citys-biggest-employers-2012-4)

The top employer in Chicago, Illinois is the federal government, followed by the City and County (http://www.chicagobusiness.com/realestate/lists?djoPage=view_html&djoPid=1643&djoPY=%40pGKJyF3ZKmUM)

And before this turns into a political derpfast, the top employers in conservative areas like Colorado Springs and Alabama are the US Military. It's just the nature of lumping all public sector employees under one massive umbrella.

[coastal]

If the Bills are somehow kept in WNY it would be fiscally irresponsible for NYS and Erie County to fund a new stadium build.

That to me will be the most interesting story to watch unfold.

[trapezeus]

if billsimpossible is worried about something, then there must be trouble.

[Fletch]

haven't you seen the commercials BI? NY is now open for business :lmao:

LOL That's hysterical.

[Fletch]

I guess neither BI or Novacane have been to Buffalo in a while. The new Medical Campus downtown with 10,000 new professional jobs, Elon Musk building his new Solar City plant at Riverbend, Yahoo building a data center in Lockport, Geico, real estate prices skyrocketing in some parts of the city, the Harborcenter, Canalside, etc. Buffalo is definitely turning around. It's not where it was in the 40's and 50's but you have to start somewhere. Stop looking at old stats and look for yourself.

Unfortunately medical is not what one wants for economic growth. Especially since the medical industry is becoming more and more government controlled.

[gebobs]

51,603 taxpayer derived government paychecks out of 82,309 jobs is not good for business.
You are right to be worried, but I'm not sure some of your numbers add up. The numbers I quoted are cherry picked from the top 10 employers. These are generally going to be dominated by government which are monolithic institutions unlike even moderately sized businesses. Few cities have such large private employers anymore. Certainly not Buffalo.


63% of all Erie County employees get a taxpayer derived, government funded check.
81% of Erie County's economy is dependent on government.
Only 19% - less than 1 in 5 people in Erie County are self sufficient.
1. 63% of all employees who work for the top ten employers in Erie County get a taxpayer derived, government funded check.
2. 81% of all employees who work for the top ten employers in Erie County either work for government or work for a healthcare provider that gets government funds.
3. Only 19%, less than 1 in 5 people who work for the top ten employers in Erie County, don't work for government or a healthcare provider.


A Grand Total of.....25,987 people are employed by privately owned businesses in Erie County.
A total of 26,000 people are employed by the top 10 privately owned businesses.

[gebobs]

I own a small business and haven't taken a vacation in 18 years. A few years back I took 3 days off for personal reasons.

That's really sad. You've got one life, man. Don't spend it chained to your job.

[Fletch]

I agree Buffalo's economy is still sruggling, but you seem to be assuming that the top 10 Employers are the only employers and are completely ignoring all the context of those numbers. Saying the largest employer in a large city is it's own government is not really that big a shocker. Rarely does any one company employ tens or hundreds of thousands of people in the same city, but the local government easily can.

For example: The top employer in Los Angeles County is Los Angeles County (http://www.laalmanac.com/employment/em21e.htm)

The top employer in New York City is New York City (http://www.businessinsider.com/new-york-citys-biggest-employers-2012-4)

The top employer in Chicago, Illinois is the federal government, followed by the City and County (http://www.chicagobusiness.com/realestate/lists?djoPage=view_html&djoPid=1643&djoPY=%40pGKJyF3ZKmUM)

And before this turns into a political derpfast, the top employers in conservative areas like Colorado Springs and Alabama are the US Military. It's just the nature of lumping all public sector employees under one massive umbrella.

The bottom line is this, in most NFL cities there are businesses capable of paying for naming rights to a stadium despite that fact that some stadiums are not named as such. Just look at the stadiums to see that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_National_Football_League_stadiums

By my count that's 24 of 32 including Cleveland, Tennessee, and Jacksonville. Of those that don't, all but Buffalo's have companies that would qualify.

Which large company in Buffalo is capable of doing that? IDK, maybe a company like Paychex in Rochester might be able to, but those companies just don't exist in WNY anymore. Back in the day Kodak or Xerox would be able to do it.

I don't know how old this is, but when an human resources company, Tops, and Wegmans head the list of biggest private employers, then we're not having that potential.

http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/feature/top-private-companies/northeast/buffalo

Delaware North could I suppose. But the point is that less than an hour north there is a city with multiple companies that could do it, easily.

The entire modern NFL model for stadiums revolves around premium seating of one variety or another, and the team has already expressed difficulties in selling those seats/suites.

Anyway, it's all relative and interrelated. Economically, Rochester might be better suited to it, which is not a good sign.

It's more complex than we discuss here.

[Turf]

That's really sad. You've got one life, man. Don't spend it chained to your job.

When you own a business, you're never on vacation, even when you're on vacation.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

The bottom line is this, in most NFL cities there are businesses capable of paying for naming rights to a stadium despite that fact that some stadiums are not named as such. Just look at the stadiums to see that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_National_Football_League_stadiums

By my count that's 24 of 32 including Cleveland, Tennessee, and Jacksonville. Of those that don't, all but Buffalo's have companies that would qualify.

Which large company in Buffalo is capable of doing that? IDK, maybe a company like Paychex in Rochester might be able to, but those companies just don't exist in WNY anymore. Back in the day Kodak or Xerox would be able to do it.

I don't know how old this is, but when an human resources company, Tops, and Wegmans head the list of biggest private employers, then we're not having that potential.

http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/feature/top-private-companies/northeast/buffalo

Delaware North could I suppose. But the point is that less than an hour north there is a city with multiple companies that could do it, easily.

The entire modern NFL model for stadiums revolves around premium seating of one variety or another, and the team has already expressed difficulties in selling those seats/suites.

Anyway, it's all relative and interrelated. Economically, Rochester might be better suited to it, which is not a good sign.

It's more complex than we discuss here.

I agree that Buffalo is going to struggle to sell the luxury boxes in any new stadium they would build, and I agree with coastal that building a new stadium in WNY would be irresponsible. I just questioned BillsImpossible's numbers.

And as for the naming rights, the company doesn't actually have to be in Buffalo to pay for the stadium name. Example: FedEx field is in Maryland, but FedEx is based in Memphis. Mercedes sponsors a football stadium and Allianz tried as well, and neither are even American.

[gebobs]

When you own a business, you're never on vacation, even when you're on vacation.

He said specifically that he never took a vacation. Never.

[better days]

Strangely, Buffalo ranked as the 11th most dangerous city and Chicago wasn't ahead of it.

http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/news/2013/06/21/fbi-stats-show-buffalo-with-11th-worst.html?s=image_gallery

Any stats that have Chicago below Buffalo in any crime rate is flawed.

[DraftBoy]

I hate to break it down this way, Buffalo...but the numbers don't add up.

98 percent of the time, I'm a freaking homer and always try to think positive.

But 2 percent of the time my brain says, "Hold on a minute."

Since 1970, Erie County has lost about 200,000 residents.

http://www2.erie.gov/index.php?q=erie-county-overview

PopulationThe Bureau of Census population statistics for Erie County are as follows:

<tbody style="border-top-width: 1px; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204);">
Year
Population


1970
1,113,491


1980
1,015,472


1990
968,532


2000
950,265


2010
919,040




2011 Estimate
918,028

</tbody>
This is NOT what worries me the most about the future of the Buffalo Bills.

Come the next Census in 2020, Erie County COULD/MIGHT experience a slight increase in population.

What worries me the most are these numbers:


<tbody style="border-top-width: 1px; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204);">
Ten Largest Employers In WNY



Organization

Employees


State of New York
25,244


United States Government
10,000


Kaleida Health
8,439


SUNY at Buffalo
7,106


Catholic Health Systems
6,286


Employer Services Corporation
6,271


Tops Markets LLC
5,117


City of Buffalo Schools
4,949


M & T Bank
4,593


Erie County Government
4,304

</tbody>

51,603 taxpayer derived government paychecks out of 82,309 jobs is not good for business.

63% of all Erie County employees get a taxpayer derived, government funded check.

I did not include Kaleida Health or Catholic Health Systems even though they do take Medicaid and are reliant upon taxpayers to pay their bills.

81% of Erie County's economy is dependent on government.

Only 19% - less than 1 in 5 people in Erie County are self sufficient.

Here is a list of the top 10 privately owned companies in Erie County.

http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/feature/top-private-companies/northeast/buffalo

The Seneca Niagara Casino is in Niagara County, but I'll factor that into the equation because I'm feeling sympathetic.

Add up all of the top 10 privately owned companies in Erie County.

A Grand Total of.....25,987 people are employed by privately owned businesses in Erie County.

The State of NY alone employs 25,244 government jobs in Erie County.

I'm not sold.

2013 ACS Pop Estimates show Erie County with a higher population than at the time of 2010 Census.

- - - Updated - - -


He said specifically that he never took a vacation. Never.

Not everybody likes taking vacation.

[better days]

Declining population and public jobs overcoming private are two very legitimate concerns.

As Promo said, Buffalo like the Bills has bottomed out. There is nowhere to go but up.

The stats used are OLD as promo said. Even the year 2011 is only an estimate which means those stats are at least 5 years old. HELLO this is 2014 calling.

I would bet for the last few years, more people moved to Buffalo than away from it. And the reason people are moving back to Buffalo is that there are jobs available there.

[trapezeus]

i love this disdain of government check. I guess a doctor accepting medicare/medicaid is a free loader.

i don't know why selling boxes is such a priority for the NFL. it's non-shared revenue. There are 32 teams and only about 5 large market teams. Each team has its own demographic. the erie county decline from 1960 isn't that pronounced. the bills should go back to having an 80,000 seat stadium and put a team out there that makes people come out. have less boxes because they don't really sell, and frankly the NFL will never give buffalo a superbowl, even if we had a huge hotel boom and infrastructure upgrade. and frankly, i don't think we'd want it. they overburden the towns they are in and give little to the local economy.

buffalo isn't the one team who has this issue. cincy, KC, Greenbay, they all make it work.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Only one or two of those top 10 employers would be interested in a corporate suite at a football stadium.

AND Canadian based businesses have absolutely no interest in 10 year leases in a corporate suite in Buffalo.

Perhaps Celino & Barnes will take three themselves?

What about Ingram Micro???

Over 2k in employees but what people fail to realize we are the largest Distributor in the US/world for many of the biggest tech firms out there ie HP, Cisco, Microsoft, IBM, (just to name a couple of the thousands of Vendors we carry). I know for a fact those Manufacturers purchase Suites for Bills and Sabres games quite often. I don't know anything about 10 year suite leases however. I know they don't do that.

[gebobs]

Not everybody likes taking vacation.
LOL For 18 years? Really?

Well he's some real tough guy but if it is, as you say it's a personal preference, why bring it up as a virtue?

How many people here in the Zone are on the government dole and eat beets? I don't like beets and haven't eaten one in 50 years! Wake up Buffalo and get a real job...don't eat beets!

[gebobs]

i don't know why selling boxes is such a priority for the NFL. it's non-shared revenue.Didn't you just answer your own question?

[THATHURMANATOR]

Didn't you just answer your own question?

No. It is non shared meaning the Team pockets it. Why would the NFL care?

[better days]

No. It is non shared meaning the Team pockets it. Why would the NFL care?

I don't believe the NFL does care about Suites or Companies paying for Stadium names.

It is just a few idiots on this board that seem to think those things are the end all be all.

[trapezeus]

Didn't you just answer your own question?

but why does the NFL care if buffalo ownership is selling boxes. since it isn't shared, they shouldn't care. what they should care about is that we put fannies in the seat and that the region watches the games on TV. That gets you the ad dollars. that's what is shared. the NFL should care about making that pot as large as possible.

why make a team (and buffalo certainly isn't on an island with this problem by themselves) get some infrastructure in their stadium if they don't necessarily want it or need it. The NFL could say, "oh we are going to give you a superbowl" but they know they can't. we don't have the hotel or underlying infrastructure.

The NFL should promote what it needs to promote to get the shared revenue as high as possible. and frankly, i think the bills are hardly the issue for NFL health. Having stadiums like JAX and SD and MIA sit empty looks bad on TV, makes you wonder if the game isn't as popular as we think. That makes advertisers think, "hey maybe we don't need to put our commercial on TV at this time. no one is watching."

[IlluminatusUIUC]

but why does the NFL care if buffalo ownership is selling boxes. since it isn't shared, they shouldn't care. what they should care about is that we put fannies in the seat and that the region watches the games on TV. That gets you the ad dollars. that's what is shared. the NFL should care about making that pot as large as possible.

why make a team (and buffalo certainly isn't on an island with this problem by themselves) get some infrastructure in their stadium if they don't necessarily want it or need it. The NFL could say, "oh we are going to give you a superbowl" but they know they can't. we don't have the hotel or underlying infrastructure.

The NFL should promote what it needs to promote to get the shared revenue as high as possible. and frankly, i think the bills are hardly the issue for NFL health. Having stadiums like JAX and SD and MIA sit empty looks bad on TV, makes you wonder if the game isn't as popular as we think. That makes advertisers think, "hey maybe we don't need to put our commercial on TV at this time. no one is watching."

The game is extremely popular, but has been thoroughly transformed from a live sport into a television sport. When I get the chance to go to college games, especially college games that are not televised, the experience is completely different that attending an NFL game. I have the chance to see the Bills play in Chicago and I'm not sure whether it is worth the expense to see live.

[swiper]

When you own a business, you're never on vacation, even when you're on vacation.

Welcome to my world.

[gebobs]

No. It is non shared meaning the Team pockets it. Why would the NFL care?


but why does the NFL care if buffalo ownership is selling boxes. since it isn't shared, they shouldn't care.

I thought by NFL you were loosely referring to their local representative i.e. the Bills owners (whoever that may be). I may have missed it but where in this thread (or anywhere else) has it been said the NFL politburo/central committee cares about selling suites? I mean other than it gets their meathooks into these corporations, even if only directly for one franchise.

Personally, I hate the suites and any fan worth their salt would agree. It lowers available attendance and what attendees they do attract don't contribute anything to the game atmosphere. While we schmoes are screaming our lungs out when it's third and four and Brady's in the shotgun on the Bills 30 yard line, those dorks are sitting in their seats and stuffing their fat faces with softened brie and sipping chardonnay. What seats they have now probably effectively reduce the effect of the 12th man by a good 20%.


why make a team (and buffalo certainly isn't on an island with this problem by themselves) get some infrastructure in their stadium if they don't necessarily want it or need it. The NFL could say, "oh we are going to give you a superbowl" but they know they can't. we don't have the hotel or underlying infrastructure.
If such an order is coming down from NFL corporate, I agree. However, they probably have good reason for doing so. Or maybe not. :-)

[trapezeus]

goodell has said, Buffalo needs a new stadium. the implication is that we need more suites. but i don't see where that is the concern from the head office. obviously they like having hte most up to date facilities, etc, but i don't think buffalo's inability to see suites is why buffalo will lose a team. buffalo just needs to fill the stadium and that's why they have bigger stadium than some bigger markets. we need to make the money up in people attending. we can't run the miami model of not selling seats but have a dedicated corporate base that gets the suites.

[tomz]

LOL That's hysterical.

What do you guys know about starting a small business and where people decide to locate? I am involved at a high level in energy-related R&D. The NYS incentives are impressive and I myself am aware of some awesome possibilities for multiple businesses in WNY (Rochester and Buffalo). I have already sent several people with whom I consult to look at a a new facility in the area and there are a number of things happening that could be excellent for WNY.

Of course, you cubicle jockeys/grocery baggers know much more about it...

[Albany,n.y.]

How many people here on the Billszone are employed by a small business?

How many are employed by Uncle Sam or the good old State of New York government?

I own a small business and haven't taken a vacation in 18 years. A few years back I took 3 days off for personal reasons.

I had multiple people call me to ask if I went out of business. That was their first question.

I HATE the negative business mentality people have in WNY.

Only does an outsider realize what we have in the palm of our hands.

Wake up, Buffalo.

And get a real job.

I had a real job with the state for almost 28 years & retired at 56. Plenty of vacation time, good pension & health insurance.
You know what, I had a choice & made it. You had a choice & have made it. Overall I made the better choice for me, but I don't go around criticizing people who made other choices on careers. I'm also a licensed professional, so I not only had a government job but a marketable skill as well. That's why the government paid me well. BTW, I had to leave the Buffalo area in the 1980s when my non-state job disappeared.
If you feel good about never taking vacations, good for you, but most of us prefer to go a different route.

[Famous Amos]

Anecdotally speaking, many students go to college or university in Buffalo for teaching, medical school or performing arts. That's not to say Buffalo doesn't have their share or engineering, law and business students.
There isn't a whole lot of incentive for college grads to stay in WNY. Very few jobs are available.
I take offense to OP's criticism of getting a real job. I am in the public sector doing a thankless job apparently. Talk to those who went to business school or who are capable of going into business for themselves. Problem is, they all left the state after school.

[DraftBoy]

LOL For 18 years? Really?

Can't speak for him, but I personally don't enjoy vacations much. Much rather work. Outside of being so sick I couldn't move I don't think a day has gone by where I haven't checked in with my office via phone or email since I started.

[gebobs]

Can't speak for him, but I personally don't enjoy vacations much. Much rather work. Outside of being so sick I couldn't move I don't think a day has gone by where I haven't checked in with my office via phone or email since I started.

That's fine for you. And fine for him too. If that's what gets him through the day, that's his deal. What I object to is his trotting it out as some virtue that makes him, the great American entrepreneur, better than the rest of us. It's a martyr complex for which some Americans are seemingly proud. Shiva started a thread about it a month or so ago.

I can understand if you need to do it because it's your company, you have to support your family, you're a control freak, or you haven't been able to train competent staff. But that is, as Albany and Amos put it so well, a choice. It works for him.

But it doesn't work for everyone. I love vacations. Life is too short and the world is full of so many wonderful places and people to spend it grilling hamburgers in my backyard. But you guys have fun working. I know you'll look back on you life without regrets just as sure as I know I won't regret working more. Cheers!

[swiper]

I had a real job with the state for almost 28 years & retired at 56. Plenty of vacation time, good pension & health insurance.
You know what, I had a choice & made it. You had a choice & have made it. Overall I made the better choice for me, but I don't go around criticizing people who made other choices on careers. I'm also a licensed professional, so I not only had a government job but a marketable skill as well. That's why the government paid me well. BTW, I had to leave the Buffalo area in the 1980s when my non-state job disappeared.
If you feel good about never taking vacations, good for you, but most of us prefer to go a different route.

And for somebody who is trying to make us all feel sorry for him for having to work so much he sure spends an inordinate amount of time on this one little internet site. I'd say he should get to ****ing work and stop whining.

[BillsImpossible]

I had a real job with the state for almost 28 years & retired at 56. Plenty of vacation time, good pension & health insurance.
You know what, I had a choice & made it. You had a choice & have made it. Overall I made the better choice for me, but I don't go around criticizing people who made other choices on careers. I'm also a licensed professional, so I not only had a government job but a marketable skill as well. That's why the government paid me well. BTW, I had to leave the Buffalo area in the 1980s when my non-state job disappeared.
If you feel good about never taking vacations, good for you, but most of us prefer to go a different route.

Albany, NY. Why am I not surprised?

In your 28 years of public service, how many products did you produce and then sell?

I ask this because when businesses produce products, sales tax revenue is generated for the municipality they do business in.

[BillsImpossible]

http://www2.erie.gov/comptroller/index.php?q=sales-tax-revenue-decline

Sales Tax Revenue on the Decline in Erie County

Comptroller advises lawmakers to be vigilant about spending, as county’s largest revenue slumps

(Buffalo) – Erie County Comptroller Stefan I. Mychajliw is reporting that sales tax revenue collections for January of 2014 are significantly down from the prior year. This is the second consecutive month of significant negative year to year growth for sales tax revenue.

January 2013 Sales Tax Revenue: $31,103,795.99
January 2014 Sales Tax Revenue: $28,906,262.91
Difference: -$2,197,533.08

“The county budgets sales tax revenue on an annual basis, not a monthly one, so it’s hard to identify whether or not a long term, negative trend is materializing,” said Comptroller Mychajliw, “However, as Erie County’s Chief Fiscal Officer, two months of negative growth is enough to have me quite concerned,” he continued.

[BillsImpossible]

Anecdotally speaking, many students go to college or university in Buffalo for teaching, medical school or performing arts. That's not to say Buffalo doesn't have their share or engineering, law and business students.
There isn't a whole lot of incentive for college grads to stay in WNY. Very few jobs are available.
I take offense to OP's criticism of getting a real job. I am in the public sector doing a thankless job apparently. Talk to those who went to business school or who are capable of going into business for themselves. Problem is, they all left the state after school.

In other words, Erie County is also suffering from a, "brain drain." Many if not most of the smart, well educated future employees are leaving.

How can the Bills survive in WNY when the future foundation of the franchise lives out of state?

[BillsImpossible]

I agree Buffalo's economy is still sruggling, but you seem to be assuming that the top 10 Employers are the only employers and are completely ignoring all the context of those numbers. Saying the largest employer in a large city is it's own government is not really that big a shocker. Rarely does any one company employ tens or hundreds of thousands of people in the same city, but the local government easily can.

For example: The top employer in Los Angeles County is Los Angeles County (http://www.laalmanac.com/employment/em21e.htm)

The top employer in New York City is New York City (http://www.businessinsider.com/new-york-citys-biggest-employers-2012-4)

The top employer in Chicago, Illinois is the federal government, followed by the City and County (http://www.chicagobusiness.com/realestate/lists?djoPage=view_html&djoPid=1643&djoPY=%40pGKJyF3ZKmUM)

And before this turns into a political derpfast, the top employers in conservative areas like Colorado Springs and Alabama are the US Military. It's just the nature of lumping all public sector employees under one massive umbrella.

Comparing Buffalo to New York City, Chicago, and Los Angeles is not fair.

What about Green Bay, WI? That's a fair comparison to Buffalo.

http://www.staygreenbay.com/ap-30-largest-employers-in-green-bay.html
30 Largest Employers in Green Bay1. Schneider National Trucking
2. Georgia Pacific Corporation
3. Oneida Tribe of Indians
4. Humana, Inc.
5. Green Bay Public Schools
6. Bellin Health
7. St. Vincent Hospital
8. Shopko Stores, Inc.
9. WPS Resources (gas/electric company)
10. Packerland Packaging Company
11. Brown County Government
12. American Medical Security (AMS-United Health Care)
13. Aurora Health Care
14. Prevea Health Clinics
15. American Foods Group
16. Carver Boat Corporation
17. Procter & Gamble Paper Products
18. Wal-Mart Stores
19. Paper Converting Machines
20. Associated Banks
21. Green Bay Packaging
22. St.. Mary's Hospital & Medical Center
23. City of Green Bay
24. KI Convention Center
25. American Express Property & Casualty
26. Schreiber Foods
27. Moore Wallace Response Marketing Services
28. APAC Customer Service
29. University of Wisconsin
30. MEGTEC Systems

[BillsImpossible]

Pittsburgh?

Pittsburgh region's top employers
http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/slideshow/2013/07/12/largest-pittsburgh-area-employers.html

[BillsImpossible]

You are right to be worried, but I'm not sure some of your numbers add up. The numbers I quoted are cherry picked from the top 10 employers. These are generally going to be dominated by government which are monolithic institutions unlike even moderately sized businesses. Few cities have such large private employers anymore. Certainly not Buffalo.


1. 63% of all employees who work for the top ten employers in Erie County get a taxpayer derived, government funded check.
2. 81% of all employees who work for the top ten employers in Erie County either work for government or work for a healthcare provider that gets government funds.
3. Only 19%, less than 1 in 5 people who work for the top ten employers in Erie County, don't work for government or a healthcare provider.


A total of 26,000 people are employed by the top 10 privately owned businesses.

Thank you for clarifying that. I agree with everything except, "Few cities have such large private employers anymore."

[BillsImpossible]

Dallas, TX

http://www.ntc-dfw.org/northtexas/corpemployers.html

Largest Employers<small style="color: rgb(54, 64, 87); font-family: arial;">Updated: April 2014</small>

<tbody>
Company
Employees


Texas Health Resources
21,100


Bank of America
20,000


Dallas ISD
19,800


American Airlines
19,219


Baylor Health Care System
16,850


Lockheed Martin
16,000


JPMorgan Chase
14,500


Texas Instruments
14,000


City of Dallas
13,000


UT-Southwestern Medical Center
12,100


Fort Worth ISD
10,000


Parkland Health & Hospital
9,442


Energy Future Holdings
9,400


United Parcel Service
9,209


Target
8,671


HCA North Texas Division
8,500


Raytheon Co.
8,500


Southwest Airlines
7,708


Garland ISD
7,300


Verizon Communications
7,281

</tbody>

[BillsImpossible]

And for somebody who is trying to make us all feel sorry for him for having to work so much he sure spends an inordinate amount of time on this one little internet site. I'd say he should get to ****ing work and stop whining.

Feel sorry for me? Where in the hell did you derive that from? I'd rather work and produce instead of sucking off other people that don't like to work and don't produce anything for America. I hate not to work. I never plan on retiring because sitting on my duff and walking my dog ten times a day and playing golf doesn't give me satisfaction. I feel satisfied when I go home at the end of the day knowing I actually produced something.

Hard work is what America was built on. Not comfy government jobs.

But why go to work anymore when half of my pay is taken from me to help fund some slimeball's pension plan in Albany?

An 8.75% sales tax rate takes almost 10% of my potential profit and what does Erie County do with the money?

Redistribute the cash to those who don't like to work and WASTE hard earned taxpayer money.

Erie County government has been milking Delaware Road for over a year at the taxpayer, and business owner's expense.

When the majority of a population is dependent upon a government job, Cuba, Venezuela, China, and Russia comes to mind.

The WNY economy can not sustain an NFL franchise.

Billionaires do their homework.

Goodbye.

[Homegrown]

Does anyone have a list of the top 10 employers of East St.Louis ?

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Comparing Buffalo to New York City, Chicago, and Los Angeles is not fair.

Why?


Pittsburgh?

Pittsburgh region's top employers


http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/slideshow/2013/07/12/largest-pittsburgh-area-employers.html

#1 University of Pitt Medical Center
#2 US Government
#3 State Government#
#4 University of Pittsburgh
#8 Alleghany County

Pitt is a "state-related" school, but since you are willing accept private hospitals as being publicly funded if they accept Medicaid then I'd throw them in too.

I'm not defending Buffalo's economy, I'm pointing out that your choice of proof is inadequate and you are making wildly inaccurate claims about the numbers.

[better days]

Thank you for clarifying that. I agree with everything except, "Few cities have such large private employers anymore."

At the end of the day what difference does it make how people earn their money?

Just because some people have a lot of money does not mean they will spend it on the Bills & the NFL.

Other people with much less money will cut corners in other areas to spend it on the Bills & the NFL.

They may decide they would rather spend their money on Bills tickets than to go out to dinner or take a vacation.

[Albany,n.y.]

Feel sorry for me? Where in the hell did you derive that from? I'd rather work and produce instead of sucking off other people that don't like to work and don't produce anything for America. I hate not to work. I never plan on retiring because sitting on my duff and walking my dog ten times a day and playing golf doesn't give me satisfaction. I feel satisfied when I go home at the end of the day knowing I actually produced something.

Hard work is what America was built on. Not comfy government jobs.

But why go to work anymore when half of my pay is taken from me to help fund some slimeball's pension plan in Albany?

An 8.75% sales tax rate takes almost 10% of my potential profit and what does Erie County do with the money?

Redistribute the cash to those who don't like to work and WASTE hard earned taxpayer money.

Erie County government has been milking Delaware Road for over a year at the taxpayer, and business owner's expense.

When the majority of a population is dependent upon a government job, Cuba, Venezuela, China, and Russia comes to mind.

The WNY economy can not sustain an NFL franchise.

Billionaires do their homework.

Goodbye.

You seem to think government employees don't work-that's total BS. Many are hard working professionals. You wouldn't know that because you think you're better than us. Get a clue-you're not.

[Albany,n.y.]

Albany, NY. Why am I not surprised?

In your 28 years of public service, how many products did you produce and then sell?

I ask this because when businesses produce products, sales tax revenue is generated for the municipality they do business in.

I bought a lot of products PAYING the sales tax. Why don't you put a sign on all your products saying government employees are unwelcome to purchase them & see how your business goes without us.
Why don't you tell us what your business is so that when I'm in Buffalo I'll be sure not to spend any money that you don't think was earned on any of your products. Better yet, just make them for "hard working" business people & see how long you still need to make your products.

[stuckincincy]

Declining population and public jobs overcoming private are two very legitimate concerns.


Seems that for every 5 private sector jobs, there is 1 public sector job. Add in the crushing debt. The future of pro football is the least of my concerns.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

[jimmifli]

Seems that for every 5 private sector jobs, there is 1 public sector job. Add in the crushing debt. The future of pro football is the least of my concerns.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/
The US debt isn't crushing.

That's a fallacy sold to rubes that don't understand economics.

A fallacy used to shove austerity down your throats.

Austerity has been repeatedly proven disastrous. Anybody that is still selling it as a viable economic policy is an idiot or a thief.

[Fletch]

What do you guys know about starting a small business and where people decide to locate? I am involved at a high level in energy-related R&D. The NYS incentives are impressive and I myself am aware of some awesome possibilities for multiple businesses in WNY (Rochester and Buffalo). I have already sent several people with whom I consult to look at a a new facility in the area and there are a number of things happening that could be excellent for WNY.

Of course, you cubicle jockeys/grocery baggers know much more about it...

Funny, you slam people for not knowing how marvelous you are in the business community and then do the same to everyone else.

BTW, let's get to the point and heart of the matter, which of those businesses that you're locating or relocating are going to be buying a luxury suite or naming rights to the stadium? Just curious.

If you can't answer that positively then I suggest you retract that post.

[stuckincincy]

The US debt isn't crushing.

That's a fallacy sold to rubes that don't understand economics.

A fallacy used to shove austerity down your throats.

Austerity has been repeatedly proven disastrous. Anybody that is still selling it as a viable economic policy is an idiot or a thief.

Very good, comrade. Attack, ridicule, innuendo, name-calling.

[Fletch]

I agree that Buffalo is going to struggle to sell the luxury boxes in any new stadium they would build, and I agree with coastal that building a new stadium in WNY would be irresponsible. I just questioned BillsImpossible's numbers.

And as for the naming rights, the company doesn't actually have to be in Buffalo to pay for the stadium name. Example: FedEx field is in Maryland, but FedEx is based in Memphis. Mercedes sponsors a football stadium and Allianz tried as well, and neither are even American.

Building a stadium anywhere with the money of others when all of the "others" (taxpayers) don't approve, is irresponsible. What people don't realize is that those same cities would still have teams if the taxpayers didn't fund stadiums, usually financing for them, which is sometimes more than the cost of the stadium. With no taxpayer money the salaries of the players and coaches would simply have to be lower, probably across the board.

I hear ya on the naming rights companies not needing to be local, but when they do, as evidenced by those that you cited, in D.C., Memphis, and New Orleans, they do it for maximum advertising value and Buffalo is just not one of those types of cities.

[Fletch]

Comparing Buffalo to New York City, Chicago, and Los Angeles is not fair.

What about Green Bay, WI? That's a fair comparison to Buffalo.

http://www.staygreenbay.com/ap-30-largest-employers-in-green-bay.html
30 Largest Employers in Green Bay

1. Schneider National Trucking
2. Georgia Pacific Corporation
3. Oneida Tribe of Indians
4. Humana, Inc.
5. Green Bay Public Schools
6. Bellin Health
7. St. Vincent Hospital
8. Shopko Stores, Inc.
9. WPS Resources (gas/electric company)
10. Packerland Packaging Company
11. Brown County Government
12. American Medical Security (AMS-United Health Care)
13. Aurora Health Care
14. Prevea Health Clinics
15. American Foods Group
16. Carver Boat Corporation
17. Procter & Gamble Paper Products
18. Wal-Mart Stores
19. Paper Converting Machines
20. Associated Banks
21. Green Bay Packaging
22. St.. Mary's Hospital & Medical Center
23. City of Green Bay
24. KI Convention Center
25. American Express Property & Casualty
26. Schreiber Foods
27. Moore Wallace Response Marketing Services
28. APAC Customer Service
29. University of Wisconsin
30. MEGTEC Systems

OK, if that's true, then explain to us why this?

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9483276/green-bay-packers-enjoyed-record-revenue-profits-2012-13

"The Green Bay Packers (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/gb/green-bay-packers) enjoyed record revenue and profits for the 2012-13 season, the team said Tuesday as part of its annual releasing of financials.

The Packers said that, after operations, the team made $54.3 million in profit on $308 million in total revenue."

The Bills' profit was less than a fourth of that in 2012.

So if they're the same in a fair comparison, how come the difference?

And I don't know, I'm asking seriously.

[Fletch]

Why does this thread give me the impression that most posters here are cranky old men.

[jimmifli]

Very good, comrade. Attack, ridicule, innuendo, name-calling.
Right.

Feel free to enlighten us on why the debt is "crushing" and austerity is good policy.

[better days]

Why does this thread give me the impression that most posters here are cranky old men.

Why do I get the feeling there are posters on this board that would be happy to see the Bills moved?

[Dr. Who]

Why do I get the feeling there are posters on this board that would be happy to see the Bills moved?

Nah, they are just going to rationally and decently tell you why the team won't stay in Buffalo and why the team is going to have a poor record and why EJ is going to be a bad qb and why CJ Spiller and Sammy Watkins were beneficiaries of college systems so they won't really help the team and why Doug Whaley is not a good GM, etc. etc.

Too bad you are such a dumb homer you insist on hoping for anything but doom. Oh, I forgot, a dumb, old, cranky homer.

[albertjenney]

Seems that for every 5 private sector jobs, there is 1 public sector job. Add in the crushing debt. The future of pro football is the least of my concerns.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/I won't criticize guys who made other choices on careers.

[trapezeus]

M&T is buffalo owned bank. it's in the top 20 in size in the US. it has naming rights in baltimore. it named a section of family suites at the stadium. they are true to their roots in buffalo and continue to grow.

i guess they wouldn't be candidates to buy a $2-5MM naming rights per year when their annual earnings is ~$1BN (give or take 100-200MM a year).

you put people in the seats and have a huge ratings TV bonanza, the nfl has every reason to keep the team where it is. it is part of why the TV deals get as huge as they do.

[stuckincincy]

Right.

Feel free to enlighten us on why the debt is "crushing" and austerity is good policy.

Well, if you like, you can read the words of FDR's Secretary of the Treasury, Henry Morganthau, Jr., in 1939, speaking to the House Ways and Means Committee.:

“We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. And I have just one interest, and if I am wrong…somebody else can have my job. I want to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat. We have never made good on our promises…I say after eight years of this administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started…And an enormous debt to boot!”

Look it up. Feel free to blame his words on Republicans. Spew a few more derogatory labels.

You might care to fast forward to today, investigate this administration's policies and compare them. You might see how, like back then, banks don't lend, and companies, including the banks, pocket the virtually free money and proceed to buy back their own stock. You might like to look at the Dow Jones index, and ponder why it is so high.

The Administration goal being to increase misery among the population, and establish a one-party oligarchy. I'm fortunate that I'm a cranky old man - one foot in the grave trumps two in the coming bread line.

We could talk about many things, but that would be unfair of me, because I know history and I know the importance of civil discourse and you seem to know neither.

BTW, your reference to "austerity" is your own. Don't imply that I said a word.

But in any event, don't worry. I'm sure you are sure that you are right.

[trapezeus]

so you are quoting a guy who was against the new deal in 1939, perhaps a year before it started paying off its fruits for about 40-50 years. And it stopped working when we let the rich go untaxed and asked the poor to keep contributing more to the consumption part of our GDP. Which side are you fighting on?

Frankly everyone should pay in, be grateful for their good fortune and know that if they don't have good fortune, hard work can make a difference. That's not the current set up espoused by the GOP.

[gebobs]

Hard work is what America was built on. Not comfy government jobs.
You wouldn't make a single widget without government. Sorry. I've worked in private industry. Making stuff. None of it would have been possible without government.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Why are you guys arguing like little *****es?

GROW UP!

[stuckincincy]

You wouldn't make a single widget without government. Sorry. I've worked in private industry. Making stuff. None of it would have been possible without government.

Really?

I've worked in the manufacturing industry for most of my work career. I can't recall a single instance where government had a thing to do with it, save meeting this or that regulation. I worked for years making widgets called cars. I also made widgets called dialkldiothiophosphates. Somehow, defying the possibility of not having government involvement, we did it.

[Fletch]

You wouldn't make a single widget without government. Sorry. I've worked in private industry. Making stuff. None of it would have been possible without government.

Yes Chairman Mao.

- - - Updated - - -


Really?

I've worked in the manufacturing industry for most of my work career. I can't recall a single instance where government had a thing to do with it, save meeting this or that regulation. I worked for years making widgets called cars. I also made widgets called dialkldiothiophosphates. Somehow, defying the possibility of not having government involvement, we did it.

Besides seeing the seemingly imminent deterioration of this thread, don't waste your breath. Honestly, is it even possible for someone to be so stupid and ignorant.

[Fletch]

Why are you guys arguing like little *****es?

GROW UP!

And the difference between this and 90% of other threads is exactly what now?

[better days]

Nah, they are just going to rationally and decently tell you why the team won't stay in Buffalo and why the team is going to have a poor record and why EJ is going to be a bad qb and why CJ Spiller and Sammy Watkins were beneficiaries of college systems so they won't really help the team and why Doug Whaley is not a good GM, etc. etc.

Too bad you are such a dumb homer you insist on hoping for anything but doom. Oh, I forgot, a dumb, old, cranky homer.

I would like someone to explain to me how they get any pleasure from being pessimistic.

And the IDIOTS that want to ridicule me as a HOMER because I am an optimistic fan of the team are a joke.

[Fletch]

M&T is buffalo owned bank. it's in the top 20 in size in the US. it has naming rights in baltimore.

And yet, it's Baltimore's stadium that is named after it.

One more wonderful legacy left by Wilson that hinders our ability to keep the team in Buffalo, namely wanting to have the stadium named after himself instead of adding some revenue to his own business? I guess why bother when the taxpayers contribute.

http://ir.mandtbank.com/releasedetail.cfm?releaseid=108753

Anyway, looks like M&T is tied up 'til 2018 $75M naming rights deal, about the time that talk about the team moving ramps up. Could be good timing or it could be too little too late.

Besides, if you had a choice, in which city would you want naming rights?

[gebobs]

I've worked in the manufacturing industry for most of my work career. I can't recall a single instance where government had a thing to do with it, save meeting this or that regulation.
How did you get your product to customers? Did you use oxcart over forest trails?

I'm sure you abided by those regulations and didn't dump acetone into the river. Does it comfort you to know that someone is making sure your competitor didn't cut corners to make his widgets cheaper?

I don't know about you, but we take payment and make payment using the stable currency of the US government. We don't accept barter. Never have.

There are three instances off the top of my head. I can go on and on. And you can't think of one? Maybe too much phosphorous pentasulfide got in your coffee.

[better days]

How did you get your product to customers? Did you use oxcart over forest trails?

I'm sure you abided by those regulations and didn't dump acetone into the river. Does it comfort you to know that someone is making sure your competitor didn't cut corners to make his widgets cheaper?

I don't know about you, but we take payment and make payment using the stable currency of the US government. We don't accept barter. Never have.

There are three instances off the top of my head. I can go on and on. And you can't think of one? Maybe too much phosphorous pentasulfide got in your coffee.

Maybe he should accept only bitcoin in payment.

[stuckincincy]

Yes Chairman Mao.

- - - Updated - - -



Besides seeing the seemingly imminent deterioration of this thread, don't waste your breath. Honestly, is it even possible for someone to be so stupid and ignorant.

The last generation, and half of the one before them, have lived in an unprecedented, facilitated era of propaganda. They reject or do not read, or buy printed media, do not know that regimes through history suppress the unrecallable printed word. Their education has cleansed history.

They do not know that when the propaganda blares, the shots in the alleys go unheard.

[gebobs]

Yes Chairman Mao.
Huh?

Oh I get it. Communism = government therefore Capitalism = anarchy.

Why did I not think of that?

There you have it folks. Private industry is the solution to everything. Unfettered, it would solve all of outr problems!

- - - Updated - - -


Maybe he should accept only bitcoin in payment.

Did they ever find the ones that went missing?

[stuckincincy]

How did you get your product to customers? Did you use oxcart over forest trails?

I'm sure you abided by those regulations and didn't dump acetone into the river. Does it comfort you to know that someone is making sure your competitor didn't cut corners to make his widgets cheaper?

I don't know about you, but we take payment and make payment using the stable currency of the US government. We don't accept barter. Never have.

There are three instances off the top of my head. I can go on and on. And you can't think of one? Maybe too much phosphorous pentasulfide got in your coffee.

And you just put yourself on a watch list.

[Dr. Who]

Oh boy, politics. This should go well.

[stuckincincy]

:handball:

[THATHURMANATOR]

And the difference between this and 90% of other threads is exactly what now?

Point taken....

[better days]

Point taken....

Yeah, just like every other thread he posts in, NEGATIVE posts from Fletch.

[better days]

And as much as I am accused of being a HOMER, I do post criticisms about the Bills when I think they warrent it.

The "realists" like Fletch & Spiked & Coastal NEVER post anything positive about the Bills.

And I did not include Op because on RARE occasions he does post positive things about the team.

[trapezeus]

And yet, it's Baltimore's stadium that is named after it.

One more wonderful legacy left by Wilson that hinders our ability to keep the team in Buffalo, namely wanting to have the stadium named after himself instead of adding some revenue to his own business? I guess why bother when the taxpayers contribute.

http://ir.mandtbank.com/releasedetail.cfm?releaseid=108753

Anyway, looks like M&T is tied up 'til 2018 $75M naming rights deal, about the time that talk about the team moving ramps up. Could be good timing or it could be too little too late.

Besides, if you had a choice, in which city would you want naming rights?

so then the issue is that someone didn't want to sell the naming rights. Not that industry couldn't support it. and again, rich stadium was the first NFL stadium naming rights deal.

really, baltimore is that much more bustling than buffalo. You think a single purpose stadium in baltimore gets that much more cache than a single purpose stadium in Buffalo?

I'm not saying buffalo is the greatest place and in line with other major markets, but at some point, the league knows that a 32 team league isn't going to find 32 similar markets. some will be smaller. and they know full well that some large ones don't support football despite the income studies and large business studies.

it comes down to who shows up and which markets are going to make that TV contract larger at each re-upping point. Buffalo plays its role.

[gebobs]

and again, rich stadium was the first NFL stadium naming rights deal.
Schaefer Stadium, Foxborough MA in 1971

[BillsImpossible]

OK, if that's true, then explain to us why this?

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9483276/green-bay-packers-enjoyed-record-revenue-profits-2012-13

"The Green Bay Packers (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/gb/green-bay-packers) enjoyed record revenue and profits for the 2012-13 season, the team said Tuesday as part of its annual releasing of financials.

The Packers said that, after operations, the team made $54.3 million in profit on $308 million in total revenue."

The Bills' profit was less than a fourth of that in 2012.

So if they're the same in a fair comparison, how come the difference?

And I don't know, I'm asking seriously.

Good question. "How come the difference?"

Why are the Green Bay Packers a much more profitable franchise than the Buffalo Bills?

Just look at Green Bay's top 10 employers:

1. Schneider National Trucking (private)
2. Georgia Pacific Corporation (private)
3. Oneida Tribe of Indians (private)
4. Humana, Inc. (public/private)
5. Green Bay Public Schools (public)
6. Bellin Health (public/private)
7. St. Vincent Hospital (public/private)
8. Shopko Stores, Inc. (private)
9. WPS Resources (private)
10. Packerland Packaging Company (private)

Now compare that list to Buffalo's top 10 employers:

1. State of New York (public)
2. United States Government (public)
3. Kaleida Health (public/private)
4. SUNY at Buffalo (public)
5. Catholic Health Systems (public/private)
6. Employer Services Corporation (private)
7. Tops Markets (private)
8. City of Buffalo Schools (public)
9. M&T Bank (private)
10. Erie County Government (public)

Public vs. Private jobs. There's a huge difference.

What's better for the creation of wealth? Capitalism (private) or communism/socialism (public)?

It's not even close. Kind of like comparing the United States economy to that of Cuba's where literally every citizen works for the State.

How many cars did the entire nation of Cuba sell in the last 6 months? 50.

https://news.yahoo.com/cuba-just-50-cars-sold-6-months-under-220353675.html

Why are Erie County's taxes so high?

Because government jobs are funded by taxes.

Privately owned businesses do not pay their employees with taxpayer dollars, and are not dependent upon public taxpayer support to fund their operations.

So why are the Green Bay Packers a more profitable franchise than the Buffalo Bills even though Green Bay's population is less than half of Buffalo's?

Lower taxes. People and businesses have more money to spend.

Just imagine if Erie County slashed it's ridiculous 8.75% Sales Tax rate in half, and Erie County property taxes were cut in half too?

People - and businesses would have more money to spend and the Buffalo Bills would be a more profitable franchise.

If Fisher Price, Tops, Wegmans, Delaware North, Rich Products, and every other major PRIVATE employer in Erie County had their tax bills cut in half, selling out corporate suites at the Ralph wouldn't be a problem.

[Homegrown]

thread deserves a sticky .....

[BillsImpossible]

And as much as I am accused of being a HOMER, I do post criticisms about the Bills when I think they warrent it.

The "realists" like Fletch & Spiked & Coastal NEVER post anything positive about the Bills.

And I did not include Op because on RARE occasions he does post positive things about the team.

RARE? I predicted the Bills would finish 12-4 this year, 5-1 in the division, and have posted numerous times supporting EJ Manuel!

Erie County's economic situation is the Giant Elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about.

I want to talk about it because addressing the problem is the first thing necessary to help fix it.

Put yourself in the next owner's shoes. Wouldn't you want to know the economic demographics of Erie County?

Wouldn't you want to know if your big investment is going to be financially sound and pay off in the future?

If you were going to invest over $1 billion, wouldn't you want to know the economic analytics of your prospective purchase?

The economic analytics don't look good in Erie County - I HATE TO SAY THAT, but it's the truth.

Erie County's population has been declining every decade since the 1950's.

Sales Tax revenues are declining as of 2014. Nobody really knows how much Erie County is on the hook for their employees pension plans.

The top 2 employers in Erie County are New York State and the US government.

Taxes are through the roof. The only real business investment Erie County can see comes from Terry Pegula who can afford the taxes and doesn't mind paying them because he's using his heart instead of his business brains.

If Buffalo wants to keep the Bills for the long haul, the people have to change.

[Skooby]

10,000 out of work tele-marketers.

[BillsImpossible]

Why?



#1 University of Pitt Medical Center
#2 US Government
#3 State Government#
#4 University of Pittsburgh
#8 Alleghany County

Pitt is a "state-related" school, but since you are willing accept private hospitals as being publicly funded if they accept Medicaid then I'd throw them in too.

I'm not defending Buffalo's economy, I'm pointing out that your choice of proof is inadequate and you are making wildly inaccurate claims about the numbers.

It's all about the numbers.

'Wildly inaccurate claims?' Take that up with Erie County's own website, not me.

Erie County's #1 private employer (not public) is Employer Service Corporation, with 6,271 employees.

Coming in at #2 for Erie County private employers is Tops Markets with 5,115 employees.

#3 for Erie County's private workforce employers is M&T Bank with 4,593 employees.

15,979 private workforce employees vs...

Pittsburgh's #1 private employer is Giant Eagle, with 11,119 employees.

#2 is BNY Mellon Corp., with 7,600 employees.

#3 is is Westinghouse Electric Co., with 5,600 employees.

24,319 - 15,979 = 8,340 more private sector jobs.

[better days]

RARE? I predicted the Bills would finish 12-4 this year, 5-1 in the division, and have posted numerous times supporting EJ Manuel!

Erie County's economic situation is the Giant Elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about.

I want to talk about it because addressing the problem is the first thing necessary to help fix it.

Put yourself in the next owner's shoes. Wouldn't you want to know the economic demographics of Erie County?

Wouldn't you want to know if your big investment is going to be financially sound and pay off in the future?

If you were going to invest over $1 billion, wouldn't you want to know the economic analytics of your prospective purchase?

The economic analytics don't look good in Erie County - I HATE TO SAY THAT, but it's the truth.

Erie County's population has been declining every decade since the 1950's.

Sales Tax revenues are declining as of 2014. Nobody really knows how much Erie County is on the hook for their employees pension plans.

The top 2 employers in Erie County are New York State and the US government.

Taxes are through the roof. The only real business investment Erie County can see comes from Terry Pegula who can afford the taxes and doesn't mind paying them because he's using his heart instead of his business brains.

If Buffalo wants to keep the Bills for the long haul, the people have to change.

I was not talking about you Bills Impossible. You are almost as big a HOMER as me.

I was talking about the poster Opiv.

[BillsImpossible]

More numbers from Pittsburgh.

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/slideshow/2013/07/12/largest-pittsburgh-area-employers.html

Highmark, Inc. 5,400 employees. Ranked 10th.

The 10th ranked privately owned company in Pittsburgh had more employees than the 2nd ranked privately owned company in Buffalo, Tops Markets with 5,117 employees.

The United States Steel Corporation (USS) employs 5,000 people and ranks 11th in Pittsburgh.

Buffalo's third largest private sector employer, M&T Bank employs 4,593 people.

In Pittsburgh, Verizon employs 4,250 people and ranks 16th.

This is NOT about politics. This is about analyzing the numbers, just like all of us here at the Billszone analyze the numbers in Fantasy Football, and production in terms of individual players.

If we can all focus on the numbers instead of politics, maybe this thread might lead in a positive future direction.

[Fletch]

really, baltimore is that much more bustling than buffalo. You think a single purpose stadium in baltimore gets that much more cache than a single purpose stadium in Buffalo?

Ever been there?

It doesn't seem so.

[better days]

More numbers from Pittsburgh.

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/slideshow/2013/07/12/largest-pittsburgh-area-employers.html

Highmark, Inc. 5,400 employees. Ranked 10th.

The 10th ranked privately owned company in Pittsburgh had more employees than the 2nd ranked privately owned company in Buffalo, Tops Markets with 5,117 employees.

The United States Steel Corporation (USS) employs 5,000 people and ranks 11th in Pittsburgh.

Buffalo's third largest private sector employer, M&T Bank employs 4,593 people.

In Pittsburgh, Verizon employs 4,250 people and ranks 16th.

This is NOT about politics. This is about analyzing the numbers, just like all of us here at the Billszone analyze the numbers in Fantasy Football, and production in terms of individual players.

If we can all focus on the numbers instead of politics, maybe this thread might lead in a positive future direction.

Well, I posted in a different thread, about a week ago I heard on the Shredd & Ragan show that a high tech company was going to start up in Buffalo & hire about 5000 people............high paying jobs at that.

From what I have been reading & hearing Buffalo is at the begining of a revitalization.

Bill Fictner actor & Cheektowaga native was on WGR the other day & said he was amazed at the changes in Buffalo since he was last there.

[BillsImpossible]

If Erie County government wants the Bills to stay in Buffalo for future generations, they must take drastic measures by eliminating their own friends and family members jobs.

They have to fall on their own swords and admit that Buffalo, (not Houston) has a problem.

[Skooby]

Ever been there?

It doesn't seem so.

M&T mortgaged the golddome to buy the Ravens naming rights.

[BillsImpossible]

Well, I posted in a different thread, about a week ago I heard on the Shredd & Ragan show that a high tech company was going to start up in Buffalo & hire about 5000 people............high paying jobs at that.

From what I have been reading & hearing Buffalo is at the begining of a revitalization.

Bill Fictner actor & Cheektowaga native was on WGR the other day & said he was amazed at the changes in Buffalo since he was last there.

Buffalo is most certainly at a Crossroads in history. I agree. Things LOOK like they are changing, but the underbelly remains the same.

On the front page of the Buffalo News today was an article about, "Where To Build," the Bills next stadium.

I said to my staff, "They may as well be talking about building a new Peace Bridge."

All talk, and no show. That is Buffalo, unfortunately.

People like to talk, but very few ever back it up with the show.

[Historian]

And for somebody who is trying to make us all feel sorry for him for having to work so much he sure spends an inordinate amount of time on this one little internet site. I'd say he should get to ****ing work and stop whining.

Agreed.

I simply love these doom and gloom threads.

Why don't you try and help?

Buy a suite.

Buy a set of Club seats.

Entertain your customers.

Sheesh!

[trapezeus]

Ever been there?

It doesn't seem so.

I have. Your arguement is that buffalo companies wouldn't want to put money on the name. history shows people have and currently there is a buffalo business with money on a name. the reason the stadium isn't named is a ralph wilson reason. not a local economy reason.

you are doing something the NFL is not. you are saying all 32 teams have to operate in a similar market. no business person views a multi-branch company like that. you adjust to the markets you are in.even if the nfl could have a team in 32 of the largest markets, there would be a very different expectation of how you hand 32 vs number 1-5.

All the arguements you make about why buffalo can't be successful and useful to the nfl is because it operates differently from the top 5 teams.

Again the operating line stuff is just a single number without any idea of why buffalo is significantly different. you show the income statement that i'm sure the perspective buyers are looking at, they'll make the judgement on if its really just that far behind or if they have different economics.

also ralph made it work because his investment appreciated and required no large debt. the pegulas are definitely doing this debt free based on the rumors you hear about $1.75BN in cash ready to go. so they won't have expensive payments to make from what they earn on the team. whatever they earn (without paying themselves a salary) should stil be a decent return annually. It's a safe return, one that would be modelled to grow, and comes with no other expenses.

[Fletch]

M&T mortgaged the golddome to buy the Ravens naming rights.

WTF does that have to do with what we were discussing in context? Nothing.

Have you ever been to Baltimore's Inner Harbor area where both the Ravens and O's host their games?

If so, you should have seen a glaring difference between that and downtown Buffalo, or anywhere else within Erie County or anywhere close short of Toronto.

Then factor in that it's not even a hour, closer than Rochester is to Buffalo, from D.C. and draws on the enormous and ever-growing D.C. metro area as well, at least in part.

I don't care if the CEO of M&T committed suicide to get those rights, that's irrelevant. What is relevant is a direct comparison of where the Ralph sits, or where a future stadium might sit, and where the current M&T Stadium sits.

Quit going off on these ridiculous side tours.

[Fletch]

I have. Your arguement is that buffalo companies wouldn't want to put money on the name. history shows people have and currently there is a buffalo business with money on a name. the reason the stadium isn't named is a ralph wilson reason. not a local economy reason.

you are doing something the NFL is not. you are saying all 32 teams have to operate in a similar market. no business person views a multi-branch company like that. you adjust to the markets you are in.even if the nfl could have a team in 32 of the largest markets, there would be a very different expectation of how you hand 32 vs number 1-5.

All the arguements you make about why buffalo can't be successful and useful to the nfl is because it operates differently from the top 5 teams.

Again the operating line stuff is just a single number without any idea of why buffalo is significantly different. you show the income statement that i'm sure the perspective buyers are looking at, they'll make the judgement on if its really just that far behind or if they have different economics.

also ralph made it work because his investment appreciated and required no large debt. the pegulas are definitely doing this debt free based on the rumors you hear about $1.75BN in cash ready to go. so they won't have expensive payments to make from what they earn on the team. whatever they earn (without paying themselves a salary) should stil be a decent return annually. It's a safe return, one that would be modelled to grow, and comes with no other expenses.

All good points except for your take on my position.

I've never said that if a mega-rich person, aka Pegula, wants to sink money in so as to operate at a loss, and he would, at least for the foreseeable future if he bought his own stadium, although I'd respect him for it, that it couldn't happen. My point is that most of these guys look at things almost exclusively from a business perspective and they aren't in it to lose money.

As to my other positions, which I think have been made quite clear, the NFL has its ideas of how teams should operate including what kinds of stadiums that they play in, that's indisputable. I've always said that I personally don't care if the stadium didn't have wife, TVs in the restrooms, plush heated seats, etc. I've always made due in the past and distant past and would be quite happy to simply have a no-frills stadium with a nice scoreboard. I hate those damn ribbon scoreboards other than simply to show the game stats.

That being said, Buffalo is near the bottom in terms of both revenue and profits, and as I've pointed out before, and based on the most recent numbers available, dead last in average of the two. That is and will be a factor for any new owner unless of course there's an owner like Pegula may be that simply wants the team and doesn't care if he operates at a loss. He'll be able to likely turn it into a winner from a business perspective if he can make it a winner on the field, but that will have to include, as several have mentioned, a complete turnover in the front office.

I don't think that most Buffalonians care about the amenities, especially those that buy "cheap seat" tickets, that the NFL cares about. I see that sentiment stated here often enough. We as Bills fans are so dedicated to the team that those amenities come secondarily, perhaps distantly so.

We'll see what happens. If money-bags Pegula wants to buy the team and pay for his own stadium, I'm all for it, but I don't see him making a profit anytime in the near future given the financials of the recent past for this organization.

[Fletch]

Agreed.

I simply love these doom and gloom threads.

Why don't you try and help?

Buy a suite.

Buy a set of Club seats.

Entertain your customers.

Sheesh!

Maybe some more would buy suites and premium seating if they didn't have to leave 7 of 8 games aggravated and pissed off.

No one likes a loser, especially a loser that takes its fanbase for granted.

[trapezeus]

All good points except for your take on my position.

I've never said that if a mega-rich person, aka Pegula, wants to sink money in so as to operate at a loss, and he would, at least for the foreseeable future if he bought his own stadium, although I'd respect him for it, that it couldn't happen. My point is that most of these guys look at things almost exclusively from a business perspective and they aren't in it to lose money.

As to my other positions, which I think have been made quite clear, the NFL has its ideas of how teams should operate including what kinds of stadiums that they play in, that's indisputable. I've always said that I personally don't care if the stadium didn't have wife, TVs in the restrooms, plush heated seats, etc. I've always made due in the past and distant past and would be quite happy to simply have a no-frills stadium with a nice scoreboard. I hate those damn ribbon scoreboards other than simply to show the game stats.

That being said, Buffalo is near the bottom in terms of both revenue and profits, and as I've pointed out before, and based on the most recent numbers available, dead last in average of the two. That is and will be a factor for any new owner unless of course there's an owner like Pegula may be that simply wants the team and doesn't care if he operates at a loss. He'll be able to likely turn it into a winner from a business perspective if he can make it a winner on the field, but that will have to include, as several have mentioned, a complete turnover in the front office.

I don't think that most Buffalonians care about the amenities, especially those that buy "cheap seat" tickets, that the NFL cares about. I see that sentiment stated here often enough. We as Bills fans are so dedicated to the team that those amenities come secondarily, perhaps distantly so.

We'll see what happens. If money-bags Pegula wants to buy the team and pay for his own stadium, I'm all for it, but I don't see him making a profit anytime in the near future given the financials of the recent past for this organization.

but your point is that buffalo is just a non-viable market that the NFL has all but given up on. If that's the case they wouldn't have approved that "iron clad" agreement. And while its not a guarantee, they knew they were signing a lease that ralph probably wasn't seeing the end of. they could have made it so much easier for people interested in moving the team than to agree to that lease. That's the bottom line on the arguement of is the NFL viable in buffalo. 24 of 32 owners would not have approved it if they didn't like it.

This next point of being at the bottom in profit and revenues is largely a myth that you want to believe. perhaps its true. but the people doing the due diligence are seeing what makes up that revenue and how the net income is calculated. as i've said, i believe ralph was paying himself in the operating budget. If you talk to people who have worked with the wilsons over the years, the general consensus is that what was presented and what was happening were very different. If that isn't the case, then the purchase price isn't worth what people are generally quoting. if the review of the financials show that the owner was removing money as cash payment during the year via salary, then it will make the apples to apples comparison similar vs other teams.

Remember wilson was not a billionaire aside from the bills. Other owners are rich prior to being in football. so they can sit on the profit. wilson would have wanted to get paid to have his lifestyle. i'm not saying that with judgement. i'm saying that from a liqudity standpoint.

that being said, yes, the tickets are cheap, yes the stadium is old, and yes, the nfl wants new stadiums. My point is that the nfl has commented on moving teams and the expenses involved with it. they are playing their game and rightfully the bills stadium is close to past its shelf life. they also know there is free money from NYS to play with, so they want it.

but you seem to enjoy banging the drum that the move is imminent and that it's just bad business/a savior that would come in. I think from what the bidders see, they'll see it's a safe investment, that it comes with a level of government support, it provides an ego boost to be an owner, and that it will be profitable.

it is infinitely better than building a stadium in LA, and having no one show up for the 4th time.

[Albany,n.y.]

All good points except for your take on my position.

I've never said that if a mega-rich person, aka Pegula, wants to sink money in so as to operate at a loss, and he would, at least for the foreseeable future if he bought his own stadium, although I'd respect him for it, that it couldn't happen. My point is that most of these guys look at things almost exclusively from a business perspective and they aren't in it to lose money.

As to my other positions, which I think have been made quite clear, the NFL has its ideas of how teams should operate including what kinds of stadiums that they play in, that's indisputable. I've always said that I personally don't care if the stadium didn't have wife, TVs in the restrooms, plush heated seats, etc. I've always made due in the past and distant past and would be quite happy to simply have a no-frills stadium with a nice scoreboard. I hate those damn ribbon scoreboards other than simply to show the game stats.

That being said, Buffalo is near the bottom in terms of both revenue and profits, and as I've pointed out before, and based on the most recent numbers available, dead last in average of the two. That is and will be a factor for any new owner unless of course there's an owner like Pegula may be that simply wants the team and doesn't care if he operates at a loss. He'll be able to likely turn it into a winner from a business perspective if he can make it a winner on the field, but that will have to include, as several have mentioned, a complete turnover in the front office.

I don't think that most Buffalonians care about the amenities, especially those that buy "cheap seat" tickets, that the NFL cares about. I see that sentiment stated here often enough. We as Bills fans are so dedicated to the team that those amenities come secondarily, perhaps distantly so.

We'll see what happens. If money-bags Pegula wants to buy the team and pay for his own stadium, I'm all for it, but I don't see him making a profit anytime in the near future given the financials of the recent past for this organization.

The prospective buyers are all running discounted cash flow models and will only pay what in the end will either produce a long term profit (the near future isn't all that relevant to a Pegula who can buy the team with the $ he just sold the land for) after the value of the team down the road (and possibly the stadium if they build it) is factored in or just don't care if they lose a million or two a year when they have a net worth in the billions. With franchises still appreciating at rates much higher than typical investments, nobody who can afford to buy a team without financing is going to lose money, and even if they desire to finance the new stadium, they'll be doing it because some accountant recommended it, not because they can't afford it. I'm guessing the NFL wants a cash on the table buyer who will not finance the team and make it a much riskier purchase.

[Historian]

Maybe some more would buy suites and premium seating if they didn't have to leave 7 of 8 games aggravated and pissed off.

No one likes a loser, especially a loser that takes its fanbase for granted.

That's a valid point, but a small one.

It's entertainment, plain and simple.

Just enjoy it.

I don't go to games just to see wins.

I go because of the great people I've met o0ver the years, and the sense of community we share.

Try it...you might actually have a good time.

[stuckincincy]

That's a valid point, but a small one.

It's entertainment, plain and simple.

Just enjoy it.

I don't go to games just to see wins.

I go because of the great people I've met o0ver the years, and the sense of community we share.

Try it...you might actually have a good time.

That augers against a downtown stadium, or any construction that restricts tail gating.

[better days]

That augers against a downtown stadium, or any construction that restricts tail gating.

The Bucs Stadium is downtown & has room for tailgating. I tailgated there before the Super Bowl when the Bills played the Giants even though we didn't have tickets to get into the game.

We watched the game at a nearby sports bar.

Going to Hockey games, I would walk around between periods & run into people that I hadn't seen in a long time on a regular basis.

At football games I would run into those people before & after the game in the parking lots. I don't care where the Stadium is built, it needs to have adequate parking which will allow for tailgating

[BertSquirtgum]

Can't speak for him, but I personally don't enjoy vacations much. Much rather work. Outside of being so sick I couldn't move I don't think a day has gone by where I haven't checked in with my office via phone or email since I started.

That's pathetic. Get a life.

[BertSquirtgum]

Really?

I've worked in the manufacturing industry for most of my work career. I can't recall a single instance where government had a thing to do with it, save meeting this or that regulation. I worked for years making widgets called cars. I also made widgets called dialkldiothiophosphates. Somehow, defying the possibility of not having government involvement, we did it.

The government are the ones who upkeep the roads you drive on and the waterlines that supply your factory. Are any of you going to sit on a paver in 90 degree humidity on top of 200 degree black top? or are you going to crawl into a 7ft hole to fix the broken water main with water spewing out of it when it's 20degrees out? ****ing idiot. We earn our paychecks just like you private sector people do. **** off.

[BuffaloRedleg]

The prospective buyers are all running discounted cash flow models and will only pay what in the end will either produce a long term profit (the near future isn't all that relevant to a Pegula who can buy the team with the $ he just sold the land for) after the value of the team down the road (and possibly the stadium if they build it) is factored in or just don't care if they lose a million or two a year when they have a net worth in the billions. With franchises still appreciating at rates much higher than typical investments, nobody who can afford to buy a team without financing is going to lose money, and even if they desire to finance the new stadium, they'll be doing it because some accountant recommended it, not because they can't afford it. I'm guessing the NFL wants a cash on the table buyer who will not finance the team and make it a much riskier purchase.

I don't know why people act like moving the team to LA is assumed to be a good idea for an investor. Just because it is a bigger city/market doesn't guarantee success. To paraphrase the great Ian Malcom, we keeping talking about whether or not they could rather than whether or not they should. That argument is not settled.

I know it is all about suites now and not as much about regular ticket sales, but Buffalo is as sure a bet as you are going to find to not lose money on the team. It will absolutely almost 100% appreciate in value.

LA/Toronto might have more upside, but their risk is MUCH higher than Buffalo. 2 teams have already failed in LA, and the NFL is kidding themselves if they think a team will work in Toronto. Sure you might make more money in those places, but is it worth the risk? To somebody maybe, but smart investors take the easy safe money.

It is going to come down to ego rather than prudent investment. From a money standpoint keeping the team in Buffalo to me seems like the best option, but I'm not an egomaniacal billionaire who wants to say he brought a team to LA so that to me is where the issue lies.

[Albany,n.y.]

I don't know why people act like moving the team to LA is assumed to be a good idea for an investor. Just because it is a bigger city/market doesn't guarantee success. To paraphrase the great Ian Malcom, we keeping talking about whether or not they could rather than whether or not they should. That argument is not settled.

I know it is all about suites now and not as much about regular ticket sales, but Buffalo is as sure a bet as you are going to find to not lose money on the team. It will absolutely almost 100% appreciate in value.

LA/Toronto might have more upside, but their risk is MUCH higher than Buffalo. 2 teams have already failed in LA, and the NFL is kidding themselves if they think a team will work in Toronto. Sure you might make more money in those places, but is it worth the risk? To somebody maybe, but smart investors take the easy safe money.

It is going to come down to ego rather than prudent investment. From a money standpoint keeping the team in Buffalo to me seems like the best option, but I'm not an egomaniacal billionaire who wants to say he brought a team to LA so that to me is where the issue lies.

Whoever moves a team to LA will do so only with the guarantee of a new stadium. An LA team with a new stadium will be worth more than the Clippers and they're going for $2 billion. Do you think the Buffalo Braves, playing in the First Niagara Center would ever be sold for $2 billion in 2014? There is no risk in owning a team in LA because an owner will always be able to sell at a premium beyond most other NFL cities.

[BuffaloRedleg]

Whoever moves a team to LA will do so only with the guarantee of a new stadium. An LA team with a new stadium will be worth more than the Clippers and they're going for $2 billion. Do you think the Buffalo Braves, playing in the First Niagara Center would ever be sold for $2 billion in 2014? There is no risk in owning a team in LA because an owner will always be able to sell at a premium beyond most other NFL cities.

Then why did 2 teams leave already? If it is such a great destination, why don't they have a team already? I'm asking, I really don't know. Seems like a no-brainer.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Then why did 2 teams leave already? If it is such a great destination, why don't they have a team already? I'm asking, I really don't know. Seems like a no-brainer.

Because they have no dedicated football stadium built after the great depression. Because the Raiders played in one of the most violent neighborhoods in the US.

If LA gets a stadium, it will get a team no question.

[Fletch]

I would worry about Toronto ten times more than I would about LA.

[better days]

Because they have no dedicated football stadium built after the great depression. Because the Raiders played in one of the most violent neighborhoods in the US.

If LA gets a stadium, it will get a team no question.

No question, LA would get a team IF it had a Stadium.

The question is would it support that team.

And you can't compare the Colosseum to NFL Stadiums today, but back in the day when LA had teams & was not supporting them, the Colosseum was not bad.

Hell, the Bills fans were supporting the Bills in War Memorial Stadium until 1970. That Stadium was MUCH worse than the Colosseum.

[stuckincincy]

No question, LA would get a team IF it had a Stadium.

The question is would it support that team.

And you can't compare the Colosseum to NFL Stadiums today, but back in the day when LA had teams & was not supporting them, the Colosseum was not bad.

Hell, the Bills fans were supporting the Bills in War Memorial Stadium until 1970. That Stadium was MUCH worse than the Colosseum.

I've read for several years, that the attendance figures aren't the key moneymaker for the NFL. 100% of capacity is nice, but selling only 90% or 85% or less is tolerable. And that luxury boxes do matter to the individual owner. Seems to me that the selling of those in LA would be a snap.

Were it solely a matter of consistently filling a stadium, you'd think that JAX would be a better move candidate than BUF. and a new stadium in LA need not be at the top of total capacity - you could size it to insure sell-outs.

Myself - I'd be surprised if the BUF franchise ever moves out of town.

[better days]

I've read for several years, that the attendance figures aren't the key moneymaker for the NFL. 100% of capacity is nice, but selling only 90% or 85% or less is tolerable. And that luxury boxes do matter to the individual owner. Seems to me that the selling of those in LA would be a snap.

Were it solely a matter of consistently filling a stadium, you'd think that JAX would be a better move candidate than BUF. and a new stadium in LA need not be at the top of total capacity - you could size it to insure sell-outs.

Myself - I'd be surprised if the BUF franchise ever moves out of town.

The key moneymaker for the NFL is Television including the Sunday ticket.

The Bills have a lot of fans spread throughout the Country watching them on TV.

[stuckincincy]

The key moneymaker for the NFL is Television including the Sunday ticket.

The Bills have a lot of fans spread throughout the Country watching them on TV.

So - the lack of local support you think will occur for an NFL franchise in LA doesn't matter now? I'm confused...

[better days]

So - the lack of local support you think will occur for an NFL franchise in LA doesn't matter now? I'm confused...

What I am saying is the NFL would lose MANY more TV viewers if the Bills move from Buffalo than the additional gain in viewership a team in LA would bring.

LA already has a large TV audience. You know the residents of that City viewing the team on TV from where they are from.

[stuckincincy]

What I am saying is the NFL would lose MANY more TV viewers if the Bills move from Buffalo than the additional gain in viewership a team in LA would bring.

LA already has a large TV audience. You know the residents of that City viewing the team on TV from where they are from.

How?

Living in SW OH, the Bills have been broadcast on my tv maybe 10 times in the last 10 years, a few of those because the played CIN, or its' a 10 minute snippet of extra coverage between a 1 pm and a 430 pm gam or the occasional prime time game. Bills games are not a nationwide draw because they haven't titillated the public with a winning season for years. Given the option, local affiliates across the nation do not pick up their telecasts. They are in the same boat as CIN was in, through the '90s and the early 2000s.

Your local affiliate would have been nuts to air those CIN clubs. Would have you have watched that crap back then?

[Fletch]

I've read for several years, that the attendance figures aren't the key moneymaker for the NFL. 100% of capacity is nice, but selling only 90% or 85% or less is tolerable. And that luxury boxes do matter to the individual owner. Seems to me that the selling of those in LA would be a snap.

Were it solely a matter of consistently filling a stadium, you'd think that JAX would be a better move candidate than BUF. and a new stadium in LA need not be at the top of total capacity - you could size it to insure sell-outs.

Myself - I'd be surprised if the BUF franchise ever moves out of town.

I wish I could share your optimism on the Bills not moving. I won't be convinced until Pegula or Golisano gains ownership. Even then, neither of them is in their youth.

If they do end up building a new stadium in the area, they need to make it no bigger than 65k. It needs to be on the low end of the league.

But seriously, the most important thing will be attendance, at all levels, which will be driven by competent management and a resulting competitive product on the field.

I'd also expect to see naming rights for any new stadium to be sold. Not sure how the revenue for that works. Years ago Wilson launched another campaign of crocodile tears about not selling rights to name the stadium, and as I recall he claimed that any such revenue would be split amongst the owners as part of the revenue sharing agreements in place. But at the same time he seemed to have been fine taking his share of the cash for stadiums that did sell the rights, which unless I'm mistaken was a significant and understandable point of contention between Wilson and most of the other owners.

[Fletch]

Your local affiliate would have been nuts to air those CIN clubs. Would have you have watched that crap back then?

Exactly, and winning as they say, fixes a lot of things. That's why that if the team does end up staying here or in the region the very first priority should be to spend some money on a decent and proven, or at least more proven, GM, which hopefully would then hire a proven head coach. So what if it's 10M more every year, cut Mario and there's more than the difference. A good coach will know how to get the same results without Mario around. Belicheat does so much more with comparable talent.

[stuckincincy]

I wish I could share your optimism on the Bills not moving. I won't be convinced until Pegula or Golisano gains ownership. Even then, neither of them is in their youth.

If they do end up building a new stadium in the area, they need to make it no bigger than 65k. It needs to be on the low end of the league.

But seriously, the most important thing will be attendance, at all levels, which will be driven by competent management and a resulting competitive product on the field.

I'd also expect to see naming rights for any new stadium to be sold. Not sure how the revenue for that works. Years ago Wilson launched another campaign of crocodile tears about not selling rights to name the stadium, and as I recall he claimed that any such revenue would be split amongst the owners as part of the revenue sharing agreements in place. But at the same time he seemed to have been fine taking his share of the cash for stadiums that did sell the rights, which unless I'm mistaken was a significant and understandable point of contention between Wilson and most of the other owners.

The NFL has things to deal with. The concussion issues, the free talent farm called the NCAA which has its own issues. The fact that they have met resistance to having other folks pay for their places of doing business, and so on.

There are a limited number of communities that want to subsidize a business outlet the size of an NFL franchise, a limited number of areas that can conceivably fill the stands. Moving BUF after the 7 years or so that the lease obligates them for is doubtful. To me. Why bother?

The NFL is essentially a guild. If a new owner gets the same cut of the revenue streams that the other 31 get, it is up to the latest Duke or Earl of the Bills to decide if he wants to win or lose, but as long as folks turn on the tv and buy the trinkets or go to the games and pay for the tix and the parking and the concessions, what's not for him to like? Granted, a franchise in Buffalo will never generate the total amount of cash that one will located in NYC, but it does provide for a good living. And when say you want to say for the good of the community, there is no end of Senator Schumers and his ilk and so on down the tree who will give you this or that consideration in a quiet fashion.

And moving a hoary franchise like BUF is a public relations no-no. I can't see the apple cart or gravy train being upset.

[better days]

How?

Living in SW OH, the Bills have been broadcast on my tv maybe 10 times in the last 10 years, a few of those because the played CIN, or its' a 10 minute snippet of extra coverage between a 1 pm and a 430 pm gam or the occasional prime time game. Bills games are not a nationwide draw because they haven't titillated the public with a winning season for years. Given the option, local affiliates across the nation do not pick up their telecasts. They are in the same boat as CIN was in, through the '90s and the early 2000s.

Your local affiliate would have been nuts to air those CIN clubs. Would have you have watched that crap back then?

For the amount of time you spend on this board, it is amazing to me you are too cheap to spring for the Sunday ticket or join a Bills fan club & watch them at a local bar with the ticket.

There are two local fan clubs near me, both do a lot for local charities. I belong to both & have had the ticket as well. If you do not get there early, it is standing room only at both places even as bad as the Bills have been.

Over 200 Bills fan clubs in 41 States & 11 Countries. I have no doubt there are thousands of Bills fans that pay for the Sunday Ticket.

[Fletch]

The NFL has things to deal with. The concussion issues, the free talent farm called the NCAA which has its own issues. The fact that they have met resistance to having other folks pay for their places of doing business, and so on.

There are a limited number of communities that want to subsidize a business outlet the size of an NFL franchise, a limited number of areas that can conceivably fill the stands. Moving BUF after the 7 years or so that the lease obligates them for is doubtful. To me. Why bother?

The NFL is essentially a guild. If a new owner gets the same cut of the revenue streams that the other 31 get, it is up to the latest Duke or Earl of the Bills to decide if he wants to win or lose, but as long as folks turn on the tv and buy the trinkets or go to the games and pay for the tix and the parking and the concessions, what's not for him to like? Granted, a franchise in Buffalo will never generate the total amount of cash that one will located in NYC, but it does provide for a good living. And when say you want to say for the good of the community, there is no end of Senator Schumers and his ilk and so on down the tree who will give you this or that consideration in a quiet fashion.

And moving a hoary franchise like BUF is a public relations no-no. I can't see the apple cart or gravy train being upset.

I hear ya and I even see where you're coming from. But my point is this, the team will need a new stadium above and beyond the renovations that they just made, even if 5-10 seasons from now, that much has pretty much been unequivocally stated by numerous people including the NFL/Goodell.

If Golisano (or Pegula) is so willing to buy the team to keep it here and what is reported to be quite possibly significantly overpaying to do so, why isn't it feasible, as I've suggested from the onset of this all to the sounds of laughter, that another owner that does not have the intentions of keeping the team here, and with the likelihood of making much more by putting it elsewhere, including possibly Toronto, by also overpaying and even overpaying to the extent that he's willing to pay $200M to buy out the lease?

When this all began everyone was talking about how this $200M to keep the team here was insurmountable. At the same time the prospect of someone like Golisano overpaying by several hundred million simply to keep the team here is thought of as not being insurmountable.

If one is possible, then so is the other. At that point the simple question then becomes over the long term would it not be possible for the team to make more money elsewhere, regardless of who the actual owner is. The answer is clearly yes, it would be, especially if the difference is a city and/or county and/or state being willing to pitch in around that much for a stadium, which should be far from inconceivable to anyone thinking this through.

I agree wholeheartedly that given their choice more people than not want the team to stay in the Buffalo region, but if at the end of the day, or a few years, it makes sense to move the team for increased profitability, then I see no difference between overpaying by several hundred million and buying out a $200M lease for someone that has the cash sitting around. Golisano and Pegula likely aren't the only potential candidates with that much cash sitting around.

Here are some cities that have bigger TV markets than Buffalo and significantly larger population bases:

Sacramento
Portland
Raleigh-Durham
San Antonio (which also draws from Austin)
Memphis
Oklahoma City

I can see an NFL team in any of those cities. With talk of the Raiders moving it seems to me that Sacramento is an extremely attractive candidate. Also, San Antonio has the Alamodome which according to what I've read would need $100-$150M dollars in renovations to make it suitable for a permanent NFL team. That would be a lot less than an entirely new stadium, clearly.

[SpikedLemonade]

"But...but...but...if the Bills move from Buffalo, the Bills fans will STOP watching NFL football altogether and the NFL would collapse..."

Yet, of course, the Bills fans so support their team as long as they can drink cheaply in the parking lot and have the cheapest ticket prices in the NFL. The Buffalo business community will not even buy enough suites regardless of cost.

No one is making a decision today to move the Buffalo Bills. The new owner realizes there is no decision to be made until the 2020 one year buy out window. Any new owner will want to know if the local fans will support the Bills at average NFL ticket prices (you know like as if they belong in the today's NFL) before they decide to spend one nickle of their own money on a new stadium. That means the new owner will raise ticket prices over the next 6 years significantly to get the ticket price to the NFL's average. If the local fans purchase those tickets, then the new owner will commit to a new stadium.

It is pretty much that simple.

You are not much of a fan if you are saying you will only support your team if the tickets are cheap or if your team is winning.

[Fletch]

"But...but...but...if the Bills move from Buffalo, the Bills fans will STOP watching NFL football altogether and the NFL would collapse..."

Yet, of course, the Bills fans so support their team as long as they can drink cheaply in the parking lot and have the cheapest ticket prices in the NFL. The Buffalo business community will not even buy enough suites regardless of cost.

No one is making a decision today to move the Buffalo Bills. The new owner realizes there is no decision to be made until the 2020 one year buy out window. Any new owner will want to know if the local fans will support the Bills at average NFL ticket prices (you know like as if they belong in the today's NFL) before they decide to spend one nickle of their own money on a new stadium. That means the new owner will raise ticket prices over the next 6 years significantly to get the ticket price to the NFL's average. If the local fans purchase those tickets, then the new owner will commit to a new stadium.

It is pretty much that simple.

You are not much of a fan if you are saying you will only support your team if the tickets are cheap or if your team is winning.

Makes sense.

As to being a fan, I'm a fan, not a booster. This isn't the NCAA where schools need money. It's a business. Don't blame me, I didn't make it a business, the NFL has worked very hard at that over the last umpteen years. They always talk about how it's a business. Maybe one day I'll start a business and collect taxpayer dollars to help run it. I don't know of too many businesses like that.

It's one thing to run the team competently but just have bad luck. It's quite another to manage the team like a bunch of kids in some combination of schoolyard pick-em (mostly regarding coaching and front office) and fantasy football.

This is a business, when I lived in NY some of my tax money went to subsidize the team. I've been to plenty of games. But I'm tired of paying for the salaries of those running the team when they can't even consistently manage to an average level of mediocrity.

If I'm not a fan in your mind because I refuse to settle for perpetual bottom-dwelling, so be it. But I would argue the opposite, that fans that settle for perpetual bottom dwelling and that sit down for it may not be the best fans.

[Fletch]

PS I think that if that happens, the Bills raise prices to an average level, we'll see the team make tracks.

Also, I don't see that $200M being the barrier to moving prior to 2020 that many do.

[SpikedLemonade]

PS I think that if that happens, the Bills raise prices to an average level, we'll see the team make tracks.

Also, I don't see that $200M being the barrier to moving prior to 2020 that many do.

If you are referring to the lease breaking clause in the lease, it is $400M and not $200M.

Also remember that the NFL will levy a relocation fee in addition for their permission to relocate. With respect to a move to LA by a current NFL team, the figure of $400M has been often quoted. The NFL owners are not going to allow one owner to relocate a team to LA and keep the increase in value all to themselves -- the other owners want their cut.

Regardless, the Bills are not moving any time soon (before 2020) and a new owner is going to try to extract an average NFL team profit before making a decision to build a new stadium or relocate the Bills.

If Bills fans think that the continuation of cheap tickets is the future of the Bills, they are wrong and need to start digging deeper into their pockets regardless if the Bills start winning or not.

Expecting a new local owner to own a team for charity and subsidize Bills fans' fun is unrealistic.

[Fletch]

If you are referring to the lease breaking clause in the lease, it is $400M and not $200M.

Also remember that the NFL will levy a relocation fee in addition for their permission to relocate. With respect to a move to LA by a current NFL team, the figure of $400M has been often quoted. The NFL owners are not going to allow one owner to relocate a team to LA and keep the increase in value all to themselves -- the other owners want their cut.

Regardless, the Bills are not moving any time soon (before 2020) and a new owner is going to try to extract an average NFL team profit before making a decision to build a new stadium or relocate the Bills.

If Bills fans think that the continuation of cheap tickets is the future of the Bills, they are wrong and need to start digging deeper into their pockets regardless if the Bills start winning or not.

Expecting a new local owner to own a team for charity and subsidize Bills fans' fun is unrealistic.

Thanks, don't know why I thought it was $200M. Still, I don't necessarily see that being a showstopper for someone that really wanted to move the team. Either way it sounds as if we're going to have two rounds of this, one being now, the other being after the 2019 season for which we'll probably start hearing reports beginning two years earlier since by 2019 plans for a new stadium would have to be well iced in order for the team to be guaranteed to stay in WNY.

As to the league fee, unless that's in cement I can see the owners doing what's best for the league, meaning themselves. If they see greater dollar signs for themselves I think that it's pretty certain that they would do whatever they could to see to it to make it happen.

I agree with your last two statements, but I also don't see the region being able to support the team like that. I have a hunch that it will be something like that if they charge more than attendance will go down, if they charge less attendance will be better but they won't make as much per seat.

Also, I see a new owner that plans on building a stadium himself without much taxpayer funding, as already subsidizing Bills fans' fun. I don't see how this team is going to be making money after building a stadium out of the owners pocket for nearly $1B. This team is on the low end of both revenues and profits, that would make the team a losing proposition.

So while I agree with you, I don't see the team's viability under such a scenario. Not sure, but it doesn't sound like you do either. So what happens? If you ask me, it's only a matter of time before it moves. I still say to Toronto.

[SpikedLemonade]

Toronto is at least 15 to 20 years away from being ready for a NFL franchise.

By 2020 there will be other viable candidates.

[Fletch]

Toronto is at least 15 to 20 years away from being ready for a NFL franchise.

By 2020 there will be other viable candidates.

There are other viable candidates now.

We'll see on Toronto. Either the NFL is blowing smoke about becoming international or the first stop will be Toronto. They keep talking about England, but I don't see them having an actual team there for that 20 years that you're talking about regarding Toronto. They may play more games there, but I don't see a team stationed there.

It's not going to be Mexico or any other country and it will have to be an English speaking country. That limits the options severely.

[SpikedLemonade]

For those that dismiss the importance of revenues other than TV and merchandising which is split 32 ways (leaving the Cowboys exception aside), the unshared amount now equals 20% of all revenue (suites, parking, concessions, club seats).

Regular ticket sales are not shared 32 ways but each game is split between the home team and visiting team with the home team getting 60% (after a 15% deduction for expenses).

Therefore, a team like Buffalo charges less for tickets, suites, parking, etc. is not going to be as profitable as other NFL teams despite the TV revenue sharing.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

No question, LA would get a team IF it had a Stadium.

The question is would it support that team.

And you can't compare the Colosseum to NFL Stadiums today, but back in the day when LA had teams & was not supporting them, the Colosseum was not bad.

Hell, the Bills fans were supporting the Bills in War Memorial Stadium until 1970. That Stadium was MUCH worse than the Colosseum.

The Coliseum opened in 1923. Sure, in the 1960s and 70's when the Rams were playing there, it was fine. But by 1982 when the Raiders moved in, it was already pushing 60. To put that in perspective, that's older than Lambeau field is today. That's 20 years older than the Ralph is today, and ten years older than the Rockpile's entire lifespan. And that was on the Raiders' first day. Davis was fighting all over to get some luxury boxes, but the Northridge earthquake damaged the facility, and the funds that had been sought to modernize the stadium were lost either to repairs or other appropriations.

And again, you are not considering location. The Coliseum is smack in the middle of South Central, which at the time was one of the worst neighborhoods in the United States. People are flipping out over Chicago having 500 murders? In the 1980's LA had nearly 1000 and the most violent parts were in the blocks immediately surrounding the stadium. It's cleaned up somewhat, but then it was definitely a "Keep your windows rolled up and doors locked, hope your car isn't on blocks when you get back" type of situation.

[trapezeus]

So - the lack of local support you think will occur for an NFL franchise in LA doesn't matter now? I'm confused...

the nfl wants the TV watching experience to be rich. they can't have stadiums empty even if it doesn't hit the bottom line intially. because there is something about watching the game and hearing the crowd trying to will a situation in their favor. that's part of the game. the NFL is aware of the theatrics to the game. there was an article about how companies have pitched electronic solutions for measuring a first down. But the NFL turned them down because there was inherently more fun in the chains coming out and tugging on the marker to see that you are short or got the first down.

that's alway why they tarped the fields in JAX and TOR. It looks better than having 3 or 4 empty sections as the camera pans over.

the NFL needs tv ratings high and they need to do that by keeping fans glued to the tv. if fans start feeling, "no one goes, it seems kind of passe" then they are in trouble.

[better days]

If you are referring to the lease breaking clause in the lease, it is $400M and not $200M.

Also remember that the NFL will levy a relocation fee in addition for their permission to relocate. With respect to a move to LA by a current NFL team, the figure of $400M has been often quoted. The NFL owners are not going to allow one owner to relocate a team to LA and keep the increase in value all to themselves -- the other owners want their cut.

Regardless, the Bills are not moving any time soon (before 2020) and a new owner is going to try to extract an average NFL team profit before making a decision to build a new stadium or relocate the Bills.

If Bills fans think that the continuation of cheap tickets is the future of the Bills, they are wrong and need to start digging deeper into their pockets regardless if the Bills start winning or not.

Expecting a new local owner to own a team for charity and subsidize Bills fans' fun is unrealistic.

Last year there were 6 teams that had a lower average ticket price than the Bills. I guess those teams are not making any money either.

For the Bills to be in the very middle of ticket prices for all teams they would have to raise the average only $50.

The Bills have already announced variable ticket pricing for the up coming year.

I have not seen one post or thread by anyone that complained about that.

And 20 of the 32 Stadiums in the NFL have less seating capacity than the Ralph does.

So even if Buffalo is 7th from the bottom in average ticket price, it is higher than that in the amount of revenue earned per year.

[better days]

More on team revenue: I compared the potential revenue of the Chicago Bears which have the highest average ticket price in the NFL at $446 & the Buffalo Bills which have the 7th lowest average ticket price at $131.

I multiplied the average ticket price x the number of seats in the stadium.

Chicago: 446 x 61500= 274,2900

Buffalo: 131 x 73079= 957,3349

So even though the Bears have the highest average ticket price at $446 & the Bills have the 7th lowest average ticket price at $131, the Bills have the potential to earn $683,0449 MORE than the Bears do.

I don't think that any owner will have a problem making money in Buffalo.

[SpikedLemonade]

Come on home buddy. Buffalo needs you.

[NoVabillsfan89]

More on team revenue: I compared the potential revenue of the Chicago Bears which have the highest average ticket price in the NFL at $446 & the Buffalo Bills which have the 7th lowest average ticket price at $131.

I multiplied the average ticket price x the number of seats in the stadium.

Chicago: 446 x 61500= 274,2900

Buffalo: 131 x 73079= 957,3349

So even though the Bears have the highest average ticket price at $446 & the Bills have the 7th lowest average ticket price at $131, the Bills have the potential to earn $683,0449 MORE than the Bears do.

I don't think that any owner will have a problem making money in Buffalo.

I think you need to check your math.

446 x 61500 = 27,429,000

That would be almost $18 million more for the Bears.

[better days]

Come on home buddy. Buffalo needs you.

Well, I do my share to support the Bills from Fla.

[SpikedLemonade]

More on team revenue: I compared the potential revenue of the Chicago Bears which have the highest average ticket price in the NFL at $446 & the Buffalo Bills which have the 7th lowest average ticket price at $131.

I multiplied the average ticket price x the number of seats in the stadium.

Chicago: 446 x 61500= 274,2900

Buffalo: 131 x 73079= 957,3349

So even though the Bears have the highest average ticket price at $446 & the Bills have the 7th lowest average ticket price at $131, the Bills have the potential to earn $683,0449 MORE than the Bears do.

I don't think that any owner will have a problem making money in Buffalo.

Outstanding math skills!!!

446 x 61500= 27,429,000 and NOT 2,742,900.

Come home buddy. Buffalo needs more people like you.

[better days]

Outstanding math skills!!!

446 x 61500= 27,429,000 and NOT 2,742,900.

Come home buddy. Buffalo needs more people like you.

Damn cheap calculator.

[SpikedLemonade]

Damn cheap calculator.

If it came from Buffalo, you have to love it nonetheless.

[better days]

If it came from Buffalo, you have to love it nonetheless.

It came from China. I do love Chinese food.

[BillsImpossible]

That's pathetic. Get a life.

That is his life, and you should be thankful because the taxes he pays from his hard work goes to support government people like you.

What if Ralph Wilson, Jr. simply decided to cash out back in 1980 something, and retired on a beach front property nobody has ever heard of?

What if Donald Trump said screw it 25 years ago and retired?

What if Terry Pegula made his multi-billion dollar fortune and then retired to never work another day in his life?

What if Jeremy Jacobs and his family said, you know what...let's just all retire and sell the company.

What if Bill Gates cashed in his chips a long time ago and wasted the rest of his life away in Margaritaville?

What if Steve Jobs said to hell with you all, I'm retiring?

If it were not for people like DraftBoy, myself, and every other entrepreneur in America....

You would not have a job.

[BertSquirtgum]

That is his life, and you should be thankful because the taxes he pays from his hard work goes to support government people like you.

What if Ralph Wilson, Jr. simply decided to cash out back in 1980 something, and retired on a beach front property nobody has ever heard of?

What if Donald Trump said screw it 25 years ago and retired?

What if Terry Pegula made his multi-billion dollar fortune and then retired to never work another day in his life?

What if Jeremy Jacobs and his family said, you know what...let's just all retire and sell the company.

What if Bill Gates cashed in his chips a long time ago and wasted the rest of his life away in Margaritaville?

What if Steve Jobs said to hell with you all, I'm retiring?

If it were not for people like DraftBoy, myself, and every other entrepreneur in America....

You would not have a job.

Wrong. My life would be the same.

[BillsImpossible]

The government are the ones who upkeep the roads you drive on and the waterlines that supply your factory. Are any of you going to sit on a paver in 90 degree humidity on top of 200 degree black top? or are you going to crawl into a 7ft hole to fix the broken water main with water spewing out of it when it's 20degrees out? ****ing idiot. We earn our paychecks just like you private sector people do. **** off.

If your job was privatized, the waterlines would be replaced, and the roads would have been paved in less than 3 months.

You would more than likely be a part time worker at best, and you would be working on the roads at night instead of the busy business daytime.

Take Delaware Road as a perfect example. I live on Delaware Road in the Town of Tonawanda.

The project to replace the waterline began in June of 2013.

It took 6 freaking months to finish the job, and what pisses me off the most is how I saw crews shut down work in the middle of many beautiful, rain free cool sunny afternoons in the middle of August, September and October. At the end of November, when the project was finally completed, they sprayed grass seed on my front lawn. That only pissed me off more because I knew it was a total waste of taxpayer money.

No sense of urgency what so ever, even though all of my neighbors and my own front lawn was totally destroyed by equipment and debris.

Businesses in the area were devastated! My favorite sub shop (Tailgate Deli) lost half of their business.

The girls that cut my hair at Tony's lost half of their business. Some employees were let go. Butler's liquor store lost half of their business, along with Chinatown.

John and Sue at the UPS Store got crushed, and decided to retire.

And just to stick their government funded paychecks up our asses, they milked the entire contract until the end of November and DID NOT PAVE THE ROAD when they finished. One horrible winter later, Delaware Road was so full of potholes people avoided it like the plague.

Oh no, paving the road could wait until the summer of 2014 so they could $uck us up the ass again.

When did the Town of Tonawanda start paving Delaware Road after their 6 month milking?

One year later, June 2014 on the day before Memorial Day. Right before the holiday, they started ripping up the road.

Great centralized planning, comrades.

The paving of the other half of Delaware Road commenced on a Thursday, the day before July 4th.

I am convinced that whoever is running the Town of Tonawanda is a communist that hates capitalism and private property.

[BertSquirtgum]

If your job was privatized, the waterlines would be replaced, and the roads would have been paved in less than 3 months.

You would more than likely be a part time worker at best, and you would be working on the roads at night instead of the busy business daytime.

Take Delaware Road as a perfect example. I live on Delaware Road in the Town of Tonawanda.

The project to replace the waterline began in June of 2013.

It took 6 freaking months to finish the job, and what pisses me off the most is how I saw crews shut down work in the middle of many beautiful, rain free cool sunny afternoons in the middle of August, September and October. At the end of November, when the project was finally completed, they sprayed grass seed on my front lawn. That only pissed me off more because I knew it was a total waste of taxpayer money.

No sense of urgency what so ever, even though all of my neighbors and my own front lawn was totally destroyed by equipment and debris.

Businesses in the area were devastated! My favorite sub shop (Tailgate Deli) lost half of their business.

The girls that cut my hair at Tony's lost half of their business. Some employees were let go. Butler's liquor store lost half of their business, along with Chinatown.

John and Sue at the UPS Store got crushed, and decided to retire.

And just to stick their government funded paychecks up our asses, they milked the entire contract until the end of November and DID NOT PAVE THE ROAD when they finished. One horrible winter later, Delaware Road was so full of potholes people avoided it like the plague.

Oh no, paving the road could wait until the summer of 2014 so they could $uck us up the ass again.

When did the Town of Tonawanda start paving Delaware Road after their 6 month milking?

One year later, June 2014 on the day before Memorial Day. Right before the holiday, they started ripping up the road.

Great centralized planning, comrades.

The paving of the other half of Delaware Road commenced on a Thursday, the day before July 4th.

I am convinced that whoever is running the Town of Tonawanda is a communist that hates capitalism and private property.

Horse****. You realize it takes years of experience to learn certain jobs and how to run specific equipment right? It's not as easy as typing **** off on a keyboard.

[BillsImpossible]

Horse****.

I agree!

That is the equivalent of your government job.

[BertSquirtgum]

I agree!

That is the equivalent of your government job.

You are clueless. You have no idea what we have to deal with. We would love to everything all at once but there are town boards that follows budgets and only allow certains amounts of money to be done at specific times. Plus there are restrictions with other private companies that we have to work with such as the gas company and the power company.

[BillsImpossible]

"...but there are town boards that follows budgets and only allow certains amounts of money to be done at specific times."

And that is the problem.

They don't know how to run a business, and they don't know how to spell. They don't belong in the private sector, so how in the hell can they know a damned thing about replacing a water line or paving a road?

[BertSquirtgum]

"...but there are town boards that follows budgets and only allow certains amounts of money to be done at specific times."

And that is the problem.

They don't know how to run a business, and they don't know how to spell. They don't belong in the private sector, so how in the hell can they know a damned thing about replacing a water line or paving a road?

You are ridiculously ignorant and are only proving it more the more you post. You probably read the Niagara Falls reporter and believe everything that those idiots print.

[trapezeus]

this self promoting tone of entreprenuership is misguided. some things work better in private sectors, some better in public sectors. remember how many things were de-regulated to be better for workers and customers? remember how that hasn't really worked out that way when you are on a plane sitting on top of the guy next to you with an overworked flight and pilot crew? remember how deregulated energy policies started creating enron traders turning of electricity in california just for a profit? I recall the privatized NYC subway lines working out real well back in the day. it's a shame they put it under the MTA and had one form of payment to get around.

this idea that you are some kind of hero because you run your own business is pure partisan politics and talking points. And that comes from a guy in the private sector.

[better days]

this self promoting tone of entreprenuership is misguided. some things work better in private sectors, some better in public sectors. remember how many things were de-regulated to be better for workers and customers? remember how that hasn't really worked out that way when you are on a plane sitting on top of the guy next to you with an overworked flight and pilot crew? remember how deregulated energy policies started creating enron traders turning of electricity in california just for a profit? I recall the privatized NYC subway lines working out real well back in the day. it's a shame they put it under the MTA and had one form of payment to get around.

this idea that you are some kind of hero because you run your own business is pure partisan politics and talking points. And that comes from a guy in the private sector.

And if left to their own devices, Corporations would have destroyed the World by now.

The BP oil spill was due to lax government regulation.

[stuckincincy]

And if left to their own devices, Corporations would have destroyed the World by now.

The BP oil spill was due to lax government regulation.

..."As Senator, and while running for president, Barack Obama received a total of $77,051 from BP[29] and has taken more money from BP's Political Action Committee and individuals connected with BP over the past 20 years than any other candidate, according to FEC disclosure records. Likewise, the independent watchdog Center for Responsive Politics noted, "the “top recipient of BP-related donations during the 2008 cycle was President Barack Obama himself."...


http://www.conservapedia.com/Gulf_of_Mexico_oil_spill#Obama_administration_asks_Court_to_allow_BP_drilling_in_the_Gulf_of_Mexico


Read it and weep...

[better days]

..."As Senator, and while running for president, Barack Obama received a total of $77,051 from BP[29] and has taken more money from BP's Political Action Committee and individuals connected with BP over the past 20 years than any other candidate, according to FEC disclosure records. Likewise, the independent watchdog Center for Responsive Politics noted, "the “top recipient of BP-related donations during the 2008 cycle was President Barack Obama himself."...


http://www.conservapedia.com/Gulf_of_Mexico_oil_spill#Obama_administration_asks_Court_to_allow_BP_drilling_in_the_Gulf_of_Mexico


Read it and weep...

The problem is Corporations like BP give to BOTH parties.

Politicians from both parties have their hands out.

[SpikedLemonade]

For the Bills to be in the very middle of ticket prices for all teams they would have to raise the average only $50.

Even if you used a better calculator this time, $50 plus keeping up with the increases league wide that will occur over the next 6 years will mean that the Bills will more than double the price of their tickets before 2020.

Fanatics on this site that can afford that will pay, but unless the Bills suddenly become consistent play-off contenders, expect 3-4 black outs per year if the Bills stop manufacturing sell outs.

[trapezeus]

..."As Senator, and while running for president, Barack Obama received a total of $77,051 from BP[29] and has taken more money from BP's Political Action Committee and individuals connected with BP over the past 20 years than any other candidate, according to FEC disclosure records. Likewise, the independent watchdog Center for Responsive Politics noted, "the “top recipient of BP-related donations during the 2008 cycle was President Barack Obama himself."...


http://www.conservapedia.com/Gulf_of_Mexico_oil_spill#Obama_administration_asks_Court_to_allow_BP_drilling_in_the_Gulf_of_Mexico


Read it and weep...

well if conservapedia said it, then i have to just assume that's correct.

[better days]

Even if you used a better calculator this time, $50 plus keeping up with the increases league wide that will occur over the next 6 years will mean that the Bills will more than double the price of their tickets before 2020.

Fanatics on this site that can afford that will pay, but unless the Bills suddenly become consistent play-off contenders, expect 3-4 black outs per year if the Bills stop manufacturing sell outs.

I didn't use a calculator on this.

I just looked at the median average price & subtracted the Bills average price.

Like I said, the Bills do not have the lowest ticket price & there are only 12 Stadiums in the NFL with a larger seating capacity.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

..."As Senator, and while running for president, Barack Obama received a total of $77,051 from BP[29] and has taken more money from BP's Political Action Committee and individuals connected with BP over the past 20 years than any other candidate, according to FEC disclosure records. Likewise, the independent watchdog Center for Responsive Politics noted, "the “top recipient of BP-related donations during the 2008 cycle was President Barack Obama himself."...


http://www.conservapedia.com/Gulf_of_Mexico_oil_spill#Obama_administration_asks_Court_to_allow_BP_drilling_in_the_Gulf_of_Mexico


Read it and weep...

Holy ****, I never thought I'd see the day someone quoted Conservapedia as a legitimate source.

LMFAO

[trapezeus]

..."As Senator, and while running for president, Barack Obama received a total of $77,051 from BP[29] and has taken more money from BP's Political Action Committee and individuals connected with BP over the past 20 years than any other candidate, according to FEC disclosure records. Likewise, the independent watchdog Center for Responsive Politics noted, "the “top recipient of BP-related donations during the 2008 cycle was President Barack Obama himself."...


http://www.conservapedia.com/Gulf_of_Mexico_oil_spill#Obama_administration_asks_Court_to_allow_BP_drilling_in_the_Gulf_of_Mexico


Read it and weep...

your progressive rebuttals to classic GOP spin
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2010/05/24/exclusive-debunking-the-myth-of-obamas-bp-cash/165196
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/07/24/574161/what-five-oil-companies-did-with-profits/

and your non-partisan rebuttal
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2010/may/24/bp-liked-obama-oil-stained-sarah-palins-hands-too/

[stuckincincy]

your progressive rebuttals to classic GOP spin
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2010/05/24/exclusive-debunking-the-myth-of-obamas-bp-cash/165196
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/07/24/574161/what-five-oil-companies-did-with-profits/

and your non-partisan rebuttal
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2010/may/24/bp-liked-obama-oil-stained-sarah-palins-hands-too/

Where do the facts stand? It seems - YMMV - that my reference had some, and yours were "nah-nah, same as you" stuff. No?

You talked well, about profits, for NFL teams, but gave a reference about oil company profits. I do remember the days of Bush and his oil buddies, but somehow we don't hear same about Obama and his oil buddies. Why is that?

[trapezeus]

read the article, the bp donations you are refering to are bp employees. not corporate money.

the energy super pac money largely went to GOP candidates.

not that this has anything to do with the original thread.

[gebobs]

..."As Senator, and while running for president, Barack Obama received a total of $77,051 from BP[29] and has taken more money from BP's Political Action Committee and individuals connected with BP over the past 20 years than any other candidate, according to FEC disclosure records. Likewise, the independent watchdog Center for Responsive Politics noted, "the “top recipient of BP-related donations during the 2008 cycle was President Barack Obama himself."...


http://www.conservapedia.com/Gulf_of_Mexico_oil_spill#Obama_administration_asks_Court_to_allow_BP_drilling_in_the_Gulf_of_Mexico

Read it and weep...
I read Conservapedia all the time. But just for the humor.

On the Second Law of Thermodynamics:


The Second Law of Thermodynamics disproves the atheistic Theory of Evolution and Theory of Relativity, both of which deny a fundamental uncertainty to the physical world that leads to increasing disorder.

On the Big Bang:


Observations of distant supernovae indicate that the Universe is actually undergoing accelerated expansion and galaxy surveys and recent observations of the microwave background have allegedly corroborated these claims. Atheists claim that the acceleration is caused by something called 'dark energy', for which there is only observational evidence but no experimental evidence. There is no viable naturalistic explanation of what dark energy is, which even a few atheists admit, yet they insist that dark energy is a naturalistic phenomenon.

On the fossil record:


Some evolutionary scientists assert that if human bones aren’t found with dinosaur bones, then dinosaurs and man didn’t live together. Creation scientists point out that this is a false assumption; if human bones aren’t found buried with dinosaur bones, it simply means they weren't buried together.

Evolutionists speculate that radiometric dating of rocks containing dinosaur bones indicates them to have formed between 65 million years ago and 250 million years ago, whereas rocks with human bones in them are dated as being much newer (less than 5 million years old). Creation science shows that those methods of dating rocks provide false results, and therefore reject this argument.

Creation science points out that the fossil record contains mainly marine organisms and that a small sliver of the fossil record contains vertebrates and thus shows that we shouldn't expect to find many human fossils at all. Moreover, as the biblical Flood would be a marine catastrophe, it would be expected that marine fossils would dominate the fossil record. This is in fact what we find.

Approximately 70% of the Earth is covered in salt water which would also explain the dominance of marine fossils. In addition, creation scientists show there may have been a small pre-flood human population and that massive amounts of flood sediment are why we haven’t found human fossils in pre-biblical flood sediments. Also, creation scientists point out that we don't find human bones buried with coelacanths yet humans and coelacanths coexist today.

[Homegrown]

LOL ..I just read "the age of the earth" on Conservapedia .... the Purple Onion has nothing on this site

The Age of the Earth has been a matter of interest to humans for millennia. All verifiable evidence indicates that the Earth is only about 6,000 years old. Yet with circular reasoning and implausible assumptions, liberals (http://www.conservapedia.com/Liberals) insist that the Earth is approximately 4.54 billion years (4.54 × 109 ± 1%).[ (http://www.conservapedia.com/Age_of_the_Earth#cite_note-1) ... my new fave