Shutdown Countdown: Buffalo Bills desperate to end playoff drought

[Fletch]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/shutdown-countdown--buffalo-bills-desperate-to-end-playoff-drought-161416210.html

Haven't read it yet so I don't know what it says.

They have us ranked 27th in the preseason rankings however, ahead of Jax, Oakland, Washington, Cleveland, and Minnesota.

[trapezeus]

the sabres get praise for rebuilding methodically and within reason. They are seen as smart for not trying to do too much too quickly.

The bills are doing exactly the opposite. Just throwing draft picks away to win now. but with no rhyme or reason and with little hope for continued growth.

i think the article is spot on. The bills are all in on hailmary draft to simply make the playoffs. they aren't close enough to be a SB team. they should have stuck it out at their spot and continued to build. They are all in now. And frankly, we all know the goal is to simply be entertaining, not to win a championship. And to that extent they overpaid for such a low bar.

what is sad is the article doesn't make the logical leap. It says that in a league of parity, the bills are an anomoly. And they don't really delve into why. And it should. it all comes back to having a power structure that is perfectly content with a low payroll, modelled profits from the tickets they do sell and then just hand the masses a ****ty team. they like it this way. It won't change unless the new owner wants to change that model.

[Mike]

I've been saying it for years.

The Bills are a business and they are very good at what they do! In 2009 they had a top. 9 profits! Made more than Jets, Dols and 21other teams!


To really put it perspective, the reason why they make so much in profits inspite of cheapest tickets in NFL, lack of luxury suites and a small market is because they save so much on payroll. With their cash to cap philosophy, each year they pocket about $20M from payroll!

With such a cheap payroll in every part of the structure from, FO to head coaches to players, you can only expect a mediocre product and that is exactly what they have been. The most mediocre product in the NFL !!!


No playoffs in 15 years was not simply an annomly but the result of the Bills' business system.

[better days]

I've been saying it for years.

The Bills are a business and they are very good at what they do! In 2009 they had a top. 9 profits! Made more than Jets, Dols and 21other teams!


To really put it perspective, the reason why they make so much in profits inspite of cheapest tickets in NFL, lack of luxury suites and a small market is because they save so much on payroll. With their cash to cap philosophy, each year they pocket about $20M from payroll!

With such a cheap payroll in every part of the structure from, FO to head coaches to players, you can only expect a mediocre product and that is exactly what they have been. The most mediocre product in the NFL !!!


No playoffs in 15 years was not simply an annomly but the result of the Bills' business system.

Yeah, the fact Ralph owned the Bills lock stock & barrel & had no real expenses had NOTHING to do with profit.

[justasportsfan]

the sabres get praise for rebuilding methodically and within reason. They are seen as smart for not trying to do too much too quickly.

The bills are doing exactly the opposite. Just throwing draft picks away to win now. but with no rhyme or reason and with little hope for continued growth.

i think the article is spot on. The bills are all in on hailmary draft to simply make the playoffs. they aren't close enough to be a SB team. they should have stuck it out at their spot and continued to build. They are all in now. And frankly, we all know the goal is to simply be entertaining, not to win a championship. And to that extent they overpaid for such a low bar.
I wouldn't go as far as doing the opposite of what the sabres are doing because the bills arent using their picks to acquire FA's. The are still trying to build via the draft. Their rhyme and reason is still building via the draft by drafting the player who they thought was the best player in the last draft. We may not agree with what they are doing , but they do have their reasons and part of that is the bill shave a GM and coach that needed to win now to impress the incoming owner.

[trapezeus]

ralph's cash to cap gave them plenty of revenue and limited the expenses. they knew their market. buffalo fans aren't going anywhere. we love the punishment, we are terrified of losing the team. frankly, the only thing they messed up was thinking brandon is the only guy who can do this. it got to the point where almost everyone knew that it was a shell game. they kept moving the pieces around so that you don't notice the ball is off the table. if they just canned him and moved to another guy, we would have just kept thinking we were snakebitten.

but we know much better. this isn't an outlier with no answer. the team stinks because that's how they want it. they know they can get their profit from the model they run. if they try and be good, the cost may outstrip the chance they don't get far enough.

that's the culture they always are trying to change. the loser attitude that is at the very top. hopefully new ownership has a pair and says, "we can have a much larger audience if we win and we win with style."

[trapezeus]

I wouldn't go as far as doing the opposite of what the sabres are doing because the bills arent using their picks to acquire FA's. The are still trying to build via the draft. Their rhyme and reason is still building via the draft by drafting the player who they thought was the best player in the last draft. We may not agree with what they are doing , but they do have their reasons and part of that is the bill shave a GM and coach that needed to win now to impress the incoming owner.

agreed. it's not exactly the same. i also see that the non football reason is to generate buzz and get fans in the seats to help the transition of the sale but if their gamble doesn't work out, and statistically i don't think the odds are with them, it's going to take some time for the new GM and hopefully new president to sort out.

if its pegula, he'll make you do it the right way, but we could be waiting 4-5 years again.

[better days]

agreed. it's not exactly the same. i also see that the non football reason is to generate buzz and get fans in the seats to help the transition of the sale but if their gamble doesn't work out, and statistically i don't think the odds are with them, it's going to take some time for the new GM and hopefully new president to sort out.

if its pegula, he'll make you do it the right way, but we could be waiting 4-5 years again.


I think EJ was going to get three years anyway. If he does not pan out, the Bills will have a new QB by 2016.

If Watkins was the best player in the draft as Whaley thinks, he will be well worth the picks the Bills gave up to get him.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

the sabres get praise for rebuilding methodically and within reason. They are seen as smart for not trying to do too much too quickly.

The bills are doing exactly the opposite. Just throwing draft picks away to win now. but with no rhyme or reason and with little hope for continued growth.

i think the article is spot on. The bills are all in on hailmary draft to simply make the playoffs. they aren't close enough to be a SB team. they should have stuck it out at their spot and continued to build. They are all in now. And frankly, we all know the goal is to simply be entertaining, not to win a championship. And to that extent they overpaid for such a low bar.

what is sad is the article doesn't make the logical leap. It says that in a league of parity, the bills are an anomoly. And they don't really delve into why. And it should. it all comes back to having a power structure that is perfectly content with a low payroll, modelled profits from the tickets they do sell and then just hand the masses a ****ty team. they like it this way. It won't change unless the new owner wants to change that model.

You can't build a football team the way you build a hockey team. You don't control the players nearly as long, and you draft them far more game-ready. The Sabres are building the way they are because they have to.

Why should the Bills keep getting the benefit of five year plans? As recently as 2010, the NFC west was such **** that they sent the first losing team ever to make the playoffs as their champion. Now they are unquestionably the best division in football and boast the defending champs. The problem with Buffalo missing the playoffs has gone down to them repeatedly letting their own talent walk and then chasing what they lost with more high picks. That, and the fact that we share a division with a perennial juggernaut who whups our asses twice a year.

[PromoTheRobot]

the sabres get praise for rebuilding methodically and within reason. They are seen as smart for not trying to do too much too quickly.

The bills are doing exactly the opposite. Just throwing draft picks away to win now. but with no rhyme or reason and with little hope for continued growth.

i think the article is spot on. The bills are all in on hailmary draft to simply make the playoffs. they aren't close enough to be a SB team. they should have stuck it out at their spot and continued to build. They are all in now. And frankly, we all know the goal is to simply be entertaining, not to win a championship. And to that extent they overpaid for such a low bar.

what is sad is the article doesn't make the logical leap. It says that in a league of parity, the bills are an anomoly. And they don't really delve into why. And it should. it all comes back to having a power structure that is perfectly content with a low payroll, modelled profits from the tickets they do sell and then just hand the masses a ****ty team. they like it this way. It won't change unless the new owner wants to change that model.

Your head is buried in 3 feet of sand. There's plenty of sound reasoning to the Bills under Whaley. You just choose to ignore it to boost your "woe is us" mentality.

[gebobs]

There's plenty of sound reasoning to the Bills under Whaley.
The next line should start with "For instance..." or "Here are several examples".

[trapezeus]

Your head is buried in 3 feet of sand. There's plenty of sound reasoning to the Bills under Whaley. You just choose to ignore it to boost your "woe is us" mentality.

you are right, going all in on a QB who was injury prone (that's the only judgement you can make on EJ from last year. He had good games and bad games, but he was injured too much) was a great idea. And give him a WR that could easily be one of the best, but expect him to perform better than the average mean of WR coming out of college. Awesome idea! Trade Stevie for a Running back and trade for a troubled WR that has shown no signs that he plans on being on the up and up.

so that was their dealing of the offense. On defense they decided to let their best secondary player go. They lost their best player to injury who honestly seemed like a shot of adreneline.

Out of whaley's mouth isn't "we look to be a super bowl team". it's "we want to be a playoff team." To give up a first round pick on a team that had holes, and say "we did that to simply make the playoffs is not impressive." it is a pure gamble. and it could work and it will be amazing if it does. But the math and logic that homers seem to hate to hear for the last 14 years is that we are going to end up in the bottom 3rd of the NFL again and we will be giving up a pick that could have made us better on a slow rebuild.

regarding new ownership, if you bought this team, you'd want to cut brandon, you'd want to give littman a new set of marching orders of "smart contracts but money isn't an issue for us" and give whaley and marrone a chance to operate in an environment where they control their destiny. That could be 2 years to see that they don't have it. then you have to gut scouting, get a GM and let him build it up the way he wants. Let him pick a coach and give the coach 2 years to get the roster to his philosphy. that's about 4-5 years. and unlike hockey, if it works, it could work very quickly. Whereas in hockey, you can become a top 8 team, then next year, go to top 2-4, then become dominant for 2-4 years. I agree the window in football is shorter.

[justasportsfan]

The next line should start with "For instance..." or "Here are several examples".

I agree, there are no examples to cite because there are no results and for the same reason, you can't blast his moves either. Goes both ways.

[imbondz]

You can't build a football team the way you build a hockey team. You don't control the players nearly as long, and you draft them far more game-ready. The Sabres are building the way they are because they have to.

Why should the Bills keep getting the benefit of five year plans? As recently as 2010, the NFC west was such **** that they sent the first losing team ever to make the playoffs as their champion. Now they are unquestionably the best division in football and boast the defending champs. The problem with Buffalo missing the playoffs has gone down to them repeatedly letting their own talent walk and then chasing what they lost with more high picks. That, and the fact that we share a division with a perennial juggernaut who whups our asses twice a year.

Totally agree

[Mike]

Yeah, the fact Ralph owned the Bills lock stock & barrel & had no real expenses had NOTHING to do with profit.

Income - Expenses = Profit

Of course expenses play a huge role in profit.

[Mike]

I agree, there are no examples to cite because there are no results and for the same reason, you can't blast his moves either. Goes both ways.

If there are no examples to cite, what are you basing your opinion on?


At least the other side of the argument has 14years of examples.

[justasportsfan]

If there are no examples to cite, what are you basing your opinion on?


At least the other side of the argument has 14years of examples.

The moves in question are those made by Whaley as the GM. This is the first time he's had full control. No one can completely blame him for whats transpired since we missed playoffs til last season when Nix was still in control during the draft. What happens this year is all on him. Even Russ gave Whaley complete power to make decisions and Ralph wasn't around to meddle

[Fletch]

The problem with Buffalo missing the playoffs has gone down to them repeatedly letting their own talent walk and then chasing what they lost with more high picks.

And trying to replace what they lost by paying more overall in free agency.

Everyone knows that you get your own free agents to be for less money if you extend them before they become free agents. We do it the other way around. We wait and can't afford it.

[Ginger Vitis]

And trying to replace what they lost by paying more overall in free agency.

Everyone knows that you get your own free agents to be for less money if you extend them before they become free agents. We do it the other way around.

Eric Wood.. Kyle Williams.. Aaron Williams.. Fred Jackson. Kraig Urbik.. Eric Pears.. all say hi

[YardRat]

I've been saying it for years.

The Bills are a business and they are very good at what they do! In 2009 they had a top. 9 profits! Made more than Jets, Dols and 21other teams!


To really put it perspective, the reason why they make so much in profits inspite of cheapest tickets in NFL, lack of luxury suites and a small market is because they save so much on payroll. With their cash to cap philosophy, each year they pocket about $20M from payroll!

With such a cheap payroll in every part of the structure from, FO to head coaches to players, you can only expect a mediocre product and that is exactly what they have been. The most mediocre product in the NFL !!!


No playoffs in 15 years was not simply an annomly but the result of the Bills' business system.

What exactly is the dollar value of the team's non-player payroll? If you also know the rest of the costs of operating the franchise, the annual non-salary-related expenses, that would be helpful also.

Thanks in advance.

[GingerP]

Income - Expenses = Profit

Of course expenses play a huge role in profit.

Per Forbes, the Bills were 30th in the NFL in terms of value ($870M), and their operating income was $12.6M.

In contrast, New England was 2nd in the NFL in terms of value ($1.8B), and their operating income was $139.2M.

Kind of blows your argument out of the water.

[trapezeus]

operating income include payout to owner in it? it is rumored that in the operating expenses, the owner payout is included as a line item expense. therefore, the owner may have padded his own pockets while kraft doesn't mind since he's rich because of something other than football.

it needs to be an apples to apples comparison. it may be, but it's not provided.

[GingerP]

operating income include payout to owner in it? it is rumored that in the operating expenses, the owner payout is included as a line item expense. therefore, the owner may have padded his own pockets while kraft doesn't mind since he's rich because of something other than football.

it needs to be an apples to apples comparison. it may be, but it's not provided.

No, it doesn't have to do with owner payout. The other side of the equation is operating expenses, and considering Kraft built a stadium while the Bills get the Ralph for nothing, expenses are widely different.

However, his premise is that the Bills hoard money at the expense of winning, and if they did that they would be valued a lot more and bring in a lot more income. If that is their goal, they are doing a poor job of it.

The idea the Bills have lost because they don't want to spend money doesn't really hold water. The facts say they have lost because they have done a poor job running their team. Otherwise, the winning teams would be making the most money and the losing teams would be losing the most money. It doesn't work out that way in reality.

[Fletch]

There's plenty of sound reasoning to the Bills under Whaley.

Like what?

I agree that there's plenty of reasoning, but outsiders don't consider last season and this one, Draft wise, as being sound, they all view it as highly risky. So unless you equate highly risky with sound, it's not sound.

Either way, Whaley was hired to be the top dog in personnel in 2010 and oversaw that Draft. Since then we've been 4-12, 6-10, 6-10, and 6-10 and can't seem to ever win 7 games. Here's a clue, "almost won" doesn't count as most teams "almost win" a number of games every season. I pointed that out in another thread about how we only lost 3 games by 3 points or less and how Oakland, Cleveland, and Tampa (I think it was) lost three or four games similarly.

New England won 6 games by 3 points or less. Do they suck as a result?

We also lost 6 games by 10 points or more. 4-12 teams Cleveland and Tampa lost 7 games by 10 points or more.

Anyway, I'm curious as to what sound reasoning Whaley's using?

Spiller was a whiff and both he and Dareus, our 1st-rounders from 2010 and 2011 have both underperformed their draft status and both have one foot out the door. The rest of those drafts aren't relevant or sound.

Besides Eric Wood have we retained any of our top and best performing draft picks on his watch? I don't see any.

Manuel was a unanimous reach when anyone but Bills forum members are asked, and Watkins by just about everyone's assessment was hardly a sound decision, but one that smacks of desperation. It's also an all-in pick. If Watkins doesn't happen to be as good as everyone is talking about, as if that never happens with top draft picks, and we should know (Spiller, McKelvin, Whitner, McGahee, Williams), then it's going to cost this team dearly.

For that matter, if Manuel tanks it will also mean that Whaley couldn't see that buying new mag wheels by borrowing money from the local Payday Loans store for a car on blocks maybe wasn't the shrewdest move.

There's a lot to discuss about Whaley, but sound reasoning isn't one of the things that's going to pop up in conversation in any circles outside of Buffalo.

[Fletch]

The next line should start with "For instance..." or "Here are several examples".

Yeah, unfortunately that's pretty much where things break down for those that make posts like that.

Instead of "For instance..." or "Here are several examples" the argument usually takes a turn like, "Troll!" or "maybe if you didn't smell like yo mama after her night job" and stuff like that that's really germane to an argument.

[Fletch]

regarding new ownership, if you bought this team, you'd want to cut brandon, you'd want to give littman a new set of marching orders of "smart contracts but money isn't an issue for us" and give whaley and marrone a chance to operate in an environment where they control their destiny. That could be 2 years to see that they don't have it. then you have to gut scouting, get a GM and let him build it up the way he wants. Let him pick a coach and give the coach 2 years to get the roster to his philosphy. that's about 4-5 years. and unlike hockey, if it works, it could work very quickly. Whereas in hockey, you can become a top 8 team, then next year, go to top 2-4, then become dominant for 2-4 years. I agree the window in football is shorter.

I think you're giving Marrone and Whaley too much credit for being impacted by Brandon. Marrone looked like a lost pup for a number of games last season.

Everyone likes to mention our losses by 3 points or less, but those exist for every team. Tampa had 4 losses by 3 points or less. Atlanta, also 4-12, lost five games by 4 points or less including three playoff teams.

Big deal. We also won three games by 3 points or less, one of them against the Fins, and of the three games that we won decisively two were against division rivals Jets and Fins with the other being against Jacksonville, which we beat by only 7 points, only one team beat them by a simmer margin, the Titans who are no better than we are.

If I were new owner I'd get rid of the entire thing. The minute we start trying to figure out which parts of it went south is the minute that we risk having more of the same for the indefinite future. A fresh start is the only way to go imho.

[Fletch]

The moves in question are those made by Whaley as the GM. This is the first time he's had full control. No one can completely blame him for whats transpired since we missed playoffs til last season when Nix was still in control during the draft. What happens this year is all on him. Even Russ gave Whaley complete power to make decisions and Ralph wasn't around to meddle

So what did he do as Asst. GM and the top guy for personnel?

We are expected to believe that his role was irrelevant and that nothing that's gone wrong with this team had nothing to do with him as the #2 overall and #1 in personnel simply because he didn't have "full control"?

Does that sound like it makes sense to you?

[Fletch]

Eric Wood.. Kyle Williams.. Aaron Williams.. Fred Jackson. Kraig Urbik.. Eric Pears.. all say hi

So it sounds like you're in agreement then that Whaley is responsible for what happened since 2010, would that be correct?

By the way, I meant to qualify that by saying "our own draft pick free agents," of which Urbik and Pears were not. Jackson was a no-brainer. I already mentioned Wood. Aaron Williams is ridiculously overrated as those that think he's actually good will see this season. He's going to have to do a little bit more than log a handful of INTs against the worst passing teams in the league to get me to think he's not a bust. That extension will shortly be viewed as one more overpaid leaving us wondering why that money didn't go towards resigning someone else or to another free agent overall.

[Fletch]

The idea the Bills have lost because they don't want to spend money doesn't really hold water. The facts say they have lost because they have done a poor job running their team. Otherwise, the winning teams would be making the most money and the losing teams would be losing the most money. It doesn't work out that way in reality.

You got that right. What's funny is that people arguing that will turn around and tell us about how the money we spent on Mario was wisely spent.

We've spent tons of money over the years, to suggest otherwise is to be in ignorance of the facts. We've overpaid players for so long that it's ridiculous. You don't even have to go back that far to see it. Fitzpatrick got a ridiculous contract here. Mario is the highest paid defensive player in the league. I'll say it again, Mario is the highest paid defensive player in the league.

Think about it, for anyone thinking that Mario gives more than he takes you'd have to believe that there's no better way to spend almost $100M dollars to make the team better.

What those that run this team can't seem to realize is what else we could get for the same amount of money if it's applied differently, let's say in a Patriot-esque way. But that's why we're the Bills, masters of not being able to have a winning season and of not making the playoffs.

[trapezeus]

No, it doesn't have to do with owner payout. The other side of the equation is operating expenses, and considering Kraft built a stadium while the Bills get the Ralph for nothing, expenses are widely different.

However, his premise is that the Bills hoard money at the expense of winning, and if they did that they would be valued a lot more and bring in a lot more income. If that is their goal, they are doing a poor job of it.

The idea the Bills have lost because they don't want to spend money doesn't really hold water. The facts say they have lost because they have done a poor job running their team. Otherwise, the winning teams would be making the most money and the losing teams would be losing the most money. It doesn't work out that way in reality.

owner pay can be considered a line item expense. i assume the Morgan Stanley docs will break that out for the buyers. rumor is that ralph has quite a payout ahead of operating profit for years.

the bills lose because they don't spend money wisely. and part of that is not spending enough at the time they need to. the nice part of rebuilds is that you get to tear it down and get to rookie contracts. but the other part is to say, "these guys are good and we haven't been good at drafting certain positions. let's pay to get the depth we need"

the bills do put maintaining their annual expenses at a certain level and model out their expected cashflow. they have no desire to be a team that has a national following. and that only comes from winning. it's a high risk proposition. ask bob kraft what the patriots were netting him before 2001.

[justasportsfan]

So what did he do as Asst. GM and the top guy for personnel?

We are expected to believe that his role was irrelevant and that nothing that's gone wrong with this team had nothing to do with him as the #2 overall and #1 in personnel simply because he didn't have "full control"?

Does that sound like it makes sense to you?

If you look at my first post here, I quoted Trap because he said the bills gave up picks to win now unlike the sabres. That is not a "bills" move during the NIx era. It's a Whaley move. As a matter of fact, didn't we trade down for more picks for EJ ?

So there are not enough results to say whether that Whaley move (watkins) will work or not. It may or may not work so neither side can say anything about that for a while.

To answer your question, no one really knows to what extent Whaley had prior to taking over. From what I understand, he was in charge of scouting players both college and FA's but Nix had the final say . Yes, Whaley has had his finger prints in personnel but it was Nix who pulled the trigger.

I don't know if Whaley would have drafted EJ that high or not but I'm sure Whaley scouted him but it was Nix who pulled the trigger. Thats in the past. Going all in with EJ and not drafting a QB this year is all on Whaley however.

[trapezeus]

If you look at my first post here, I quoted Trap because he said the bills gave up picks to win now unlike the sabres. That is not a "bills" move during the NIx era. It's a Whaley move. As a matter of fact, didn't we trade down for more picks for EJ ?

So there are not enough results to say whether that Whaley move (watkins) will work or not. It may or may not work so neither side can say anything about that for a while.

To answer your question, no one really knows to what extent Whaley had prior to taking over. From what I understand, he was in charge of scouting players both college and FA's but Nix had the final say . Yes, Whaley has had his finger prints in personnel but it was Nix who pulled the trigger.

I don't know if Whaley would have drafted EJ that high or not but I'm sure Whaley scouted him but it was Nix who pulled the trigger. Thats in the past. Going all in with EJ and not drafting a QB this year is all on Whaley however.

my point on whaley's gamble isn't on his track record evaluating players. its just that going all in on a WR with a QB position that is simply a question mark, is a problem. and that historically doesn't look as good as it seems.

if you have peyton and bring in a rookie smart WR, he can get up to speed faster.
if you have EJ who is just unproven, the WR might not make an impact what so ever in that first year.

the bills were a 6-10 team last year. They could have easily been 2-14 as well as 10-6 based on the breaks. i think the gamble works if the OL picks they took were very good and get up to speed fast. that's a decent gamble. if the defense responds to schwarz scheme quickly and preston brown can step in to fill in the holes of kiko.

it doesnt work if EJ and the WR corp do not gel. if the ol was poorly scouted and not improved. if the run game (with an older Fred and an oft injured CJ) stall. Then the bills offense will do what they did to a pretty good d last year. they'll tire them out from having good first halvs and not do enough to win games.

and we all kind of know if its a slow start for the bills, there is no bouncing back in this team. and if they open the season 1-3, they will be a bottom 3rd team.

if that happens, we'll know that EJ isn't an NFL starter. he's a stop gap at best. and we may have a top 10 pick that we forfeited and will pass on the very qb who could take a team with some WR talent and a decent OL and turn it around quickly. We just won't have that available to us. and at that point it becomes another long rebuild.

[better days]

my point on whaley's gamble isn't on his track record evaluating players. its just that going all in on a WR with a QB position that is simply a question mark, is a problem. and that historically doesn't look as good as it seems.

if you have peyton and bring in a rookie smart WR, he can get up to speed faster.
if you have EJ who is just unproven, the WR might not make an impact what so ever in that first year.

the bills were a 6-10 team last year. They could have easily been 2-14 as well as 10-6 based on the breaks. i think the gamble works if the OL picks they took were very good and get up to speed fast. that's a decent gamble. if the defense responds to schwarz scheme quickly and preston brown can step in to fill in the holes of kiko.

it doesnt work if EJ and the WR corp do not gel. if the ol was poorly scouted and not improved. if the run game (with an older Fred and an oft injured CJ) stall. Then the bills offense will do what they did to a pretty good d last year. they'll tire them out from having good first halvs and not do enough to win games.

and we all kind of know if its a slow start for the bills, there is no bouncing back in this team. and if they open the season 1-3, they will be a bottom 3rd team.

if that happens, we'll know that EJ isn't an NFL starter. he's a stop gap at best. and we may have a top 10 pick that we forfeited and will pass on the very qb who could take a team with some WR talent and a decent OL and turn it around quickly. We just won't have that available to us. and at that point it becomes another long rebuild.

Well, let's say the Bills finish with the #9 pick again next draft because EJ gets injured again or just does not play well.

If there is a QB as highly thought of as Andrew Luck in the draft, the Bills would be too low at #9 to draft him anyway.

And I doubt they could move up to #1 to draft him even with the #9 pick.

On the other hand, a QB like Kaepernick could be available at #9. If the Bills are really high on a QB that could be drafted at #9, they could trade their first pick in the next draft along with other picks to draft that QB.

[Mike]

What exactly is the dollar value of the team's non-player payroll? If you also know the rest of the costs of operating the franchise, the annual non-salary-related expenses, that would be helpful also.

Thanks in advance.

For those of you who don't know what payroll means please look it up or read below.

Dictionary.com.
Payroll
(Business)The people on the payroll of a company or an organization are the people who work for it and are paid by it.


Obviously payroll includes player salaries which is precisely where and how the Bills organization save so much which in turn substantially increases their profit.

Income - expenses = profit

In other words, if they spent up to the NFL Salary CAP in a normalized fashion (not this cap to cash fraud) then their profits would dwindle (bottom 5 instead of top 10)

- - - Updated - - -

Overall, excellent business Model and taking advantage of revenue sharing and making it all about the money. And of course many Bills would 'understand' and still 'billieve' and when hope diminishes get a new HC and sign a top FA...

Wash, Rinse, Repeat

[better days]

For those of you who don't know what payroll means please look it up or read below.

Dictionary.com.
Payroll
(Business)The people on the payroll of a company or an organization are the people who work for it and are paid by it.


Obviously payroll includes player salaries which is precisely where and how the Bills organization save so much which in turn substantially increases their profit.

Income - expenses = profit

In other words, if they spent up to the NFL Salary CAP in a normalized fashion (not this cap to cash fraud) then their profits would dwindle (bottom 5 instead of top 10)

- - - Updated - - -

Overall, excellent business Model and taking advantage of revenue sharing and making it all about the money. And of course many Bills would 'understand' and still 'billieve' and when hope diminishes get a new HC and sign a top FA...

Wash, Rinse, Repeat

Well, the NFL now has a cap floor.

The Seahawks have proven you don't have to have the highest payroll to win the Super Bowl & the Redskins & Cowboys have proven the highest payroll does not guarantee success.

[Mike]

Per Forbes, the Bills were 30th in the NFL in terms of value ($870M), and their operating income was $12.6M.

In contrast, New England was 2nd in the NFL in terms of value ($1.8B), and their operating income was $139.2M.

Kind of blows your argument out of the water.

Lol... Obviously you don't know what your looking at or what it means...

Value has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

Look up Revenues and Expenses for all 32 teams in 2009. You will see the Bills were #9 in profit that year. As you pointed out above... For such a small market being in top 10 is amazing accomplishment.


Lastly

The Top 2 teams in NFL are money making machines:

Profits: (in millions)
Dallas $119M
Washington $65M
Cards $56
TB $50
Bangles $44.7
Bears $43
Pats $42
Texans $41
BILLS $40.9

You see Pats' Profits are Only 1.1M more !!! But look at their market cap difference. They are almost 2x bigger!

Let's look at numbers

Revenue. - expenses. OI
(Pats). 333 - 291 = 42
(Bills). 236 - 195. = 41

Pats spend about 100M more while only having 1M more in profits. So what is that money buying them? Wins, great coaching & FO, Great players, 3 SB wins, etc...

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/30/nfl-valuations-11_land.html

[Mike]

Well, the NFL now has a cap floor.

The Seahawks have proven you don't have to have the highest payroll to win the Super Bowl & the Redskins & Cowboys have proven the highest payroll does not guarantee success.

Your changing the argument, nevertheless your ignorance is self evident.


The Seahawks generate more revenues than the Bills and spent way more...

Seattle
Income - Expenses = OI
249 - 241.2 = 7.8

Seatle is spending about $45M more than the Bills. Where does this money go? Top Coaches & FO, signing talented players, and winning an SB.

[trapezeus]

Well, let's say the Bills finish with the #9 pick again next draft because EJ gets injured again or just does not play well.

If there is a QB as highly thought of as Andrew Luck in the draft, the Bills would be too low at #9 to draft him anyway.

And I doubt they could move up to #1 to draft him even with the #9 pick.

On the other hand, a QB like Kaepernick could be available at #9. If the Bills are really high on a QB that could be drafted at #9, they could trade their first pick in the next draft along with other picks to draft that QB.

so they perpetually are giving up a 1st rounder to make up for before. so in other words, they are all in this year and if it doesn't work out, they have to double down. this isn't a good long term strategy.

look at losman, we gave up a 1st rounder to get him. lucklily the bills gave up a 20th pick instead of its typical 7-12 pick. but still, that losman trade is easily agreed upon by homers and realists as something that drove some of the last 10 years of madness. and the bills did the same trade again for mccargo in 2006. unless that trade up hits in a big way, it's rarely worth what you gave up.

[justasportsfan]

Pats spend about 100M more while only having 1M more in profits. So what is that money buying them? Wins, great coaching & FO, Great players, 3 SB wins, etc...

Don't forget hightech cameras

16967

[better days]

so they perpetually are giving up a 1st rounder to make up for before. so in other words, they are all in this year and if it doesn't work out, they have to double down. this isn't a good long term strategy.

look at losman, we gave up a 1st rounder to get him. lucklily the bills gave up a 20th pick instead of its typical 7-12 pick. but still, that losman trade is easily agreed upon by homers and realists as something that drove some of the last 10 years of madness. and the bills did the same trade again for mccargo in 2006. unless that trade up hits in a big way, it's rarely worth what you gave up.

I am not saying they have to double down, I'm saying it is possible to do so if need be.

A) EJ may have a great year.

B) EJ may prove to be not the answer but no QB in the draft is any better than EJ or this years draft class which was pretty bad.

If A is the case, the Bills have no need for a QB. If B is the case, they will have to make do with EJ another year or find a different QB in FA.

[better days]

Your changing the argument, nevertheless your ignorance is self evident.


The Seahawks generate more revenues than the Bills and spent way more...

Seattle
Income - Expenses = OI
249 - 241.2 = 7.8

Seatle is spending about $45M more than the Bills. Where does this money go? Top Coaches & FO, signing talented players, and winning an SB.

BS. The Seahawks had only one player with a big contract Harvin. And his contract is not anywhere close to the contract Mario has.

Show us the money Seattle & Buffalo both spent on the front office if you have that info.

And the Redskins & Cowboys both had a lot of dead money last year & are always up against the cap.

[trapezeus]

I am not saying they have to double down, I'm saying it is possible to do so if need be.

A) EJ may have a great year.

B) EJ may prove to be not the answer but no QB in the draft is any better than EJ or this years draft class which was pretty bad.

If A is the case, the Bills have no need for a QB. If B is the case, they will have to make do with EJ another year or find a different QB in FA.

if b is the case, then we have to spend another year with ej like we spent 2 years with losman. and my issue on that is that whether we like it or not, our d is in its prime right now. so if the offense can't play well, the d will be past its prime in 3 years when the 2016 rookie is getting the hang of it (possibly).

sooooo, that's why is a gamble. and i don't agree with you. i think there will be a qb or two from this year's class that turns out ok. and like aaron rodgers, we will have passed on that player in favor of a WR.

[chris66]

I am not saying they have to double down, I'm saying it is possible to do so if need be.

A) EJ may have a great year.

B) EJ may prove to be not the answer but no QB in the draft is any better than EJ or this years draft class which was pretty bad.

If A is the case, the Bills have no need for a QB. If B is the case, they will have to make do with EJ another year or find a different QB in FA.History shows that there are always a couple rookie qb's that do well

Buffalos issues arent on field its in the front office. I have no idea what Whaley was thinking ( actually i do. it was a save my ass move, because if he doesnt work out I'm gone anyway)you dont trade away next years first unless your team is on the cusp and needs that one player to get over the hump. you dont do that when you're probably picking top 10.

[Mike]

BS. The Seahawks had only one player with a big contract Harvin. And his contract is not anywhere close to the contract Mario has.

Show us the money Seattle & Buffalo both spent on the front office if you have that info.

And the Redskins & Cowboys both had a lot of dead money last year & are always up against the cap.

Your just talking out of your ASS. Don't be a dumbass. Prove it.


Show me the numbers. Provide a link as I did.

[better days]

if b is the case, then we have to spend another year with ej like we spent 2 years with losman. and my issue on that is that whether we like it or not, our d is in its prime right now. so if the offense can't play well, the d will be past its prime in 3 years when the 2016 rookie is getting the hang of it (possibly).

sooooo, that's why is a gamble. and i don't agree with you. i think there will be a qb or two from this year's class that turns out ok. and like aaron rodgers, we will have passed on that player in favor of a WR.

There may be a QB or two that are GOOD QB's. Like I said IF the Bills REALLY want one, they can trade picks to move up to get him as long as it is not into the top 5.

[YardRat]

For those of you who don't know what payroll means please look it up or read below.

Dictionary.com.
Payroll
(Business)The people on the payroll of a company or an organization are the people who work for it and are paid by it.


Obviously payroll includes player salaries which is precisely where and how the Bills organization save so much which in turn substantially increases their profit.

Income - expenses = profit

In other words, if they spent up to the NFL Salary CAP in a normalized fashion (not this cap to cash fraud) then their profits would dwindle (bottom 5 instead of top 10)

- - - Updated - - -

Overall, excellent business Model and taking advantage of revenue sharing and making it all about the money. And of course many Bills would 'understand' and still 'billieve' and when hope diminishes get a new HC and sign a top FA...

Wash, Rinse, Repeat

You are completely missing the point, and just because a dictionary has a definition for the word 'payroll' doesn't mean the numbers can't undergo a more forensic audit.

Here's a simple task...take total operating expenses, including all salaries, and all revenue for the team. Now...subtract out the TV money from the revenue, and player's salaries from the expenses.

Now what does the bottom line look like?

[chris66]

There may be a QB or two that are GOOD QB's. Like I said IF the Bills REALLY want one, they can trade picks to move up to get him as long as it is not into the top 5.I wouldnt trust this current regime to have to trade more picks to get where they want. they have screwed up first round picks since they started

Spiller bad pick, Dareus underwhelming knucklehead, Gilmore still waiting, EJ Manuel colossal reach. At best bills will be able to move up to mid 20's. probably will cost them 2 seconds

[better days]

Your just talking out of your ASS. Don't be a dumbass. Prove it.


Show me the numbers. Provide a link as I did.

You are the one talking out their ass soccer boy.

Lets see the numbers the teams paid their front offices.

[trapezeus]

I wouldnt trust this current regime to have to trade more picks to get where they want. they have screwed up first round picks since they started

Spiller bad pick, Dareus underwhelming knucklehead, Gilmore still waiting, EJ Manuel colossal reach. At best bills will be able to move up to mid 20's. probably will cost them 2 seconds

2002- Mike williams - bust
2003- mcgahee - not a need, left the team, had a decent career
2004 - lee evans - while a beloved bill, he was one dimensional. not a game changer
2004 - losman - we all know that was a bust
2005 - no pick - perhaps for the best
2006 - donte whitner - all pro tweeter; can't cover the slot on 3rd down for two teams over 8 years. looking to be just as useless on his 3rd team
2006 - j mccargo - 2 sacks in his 4 years with the bills
2007 - marshawn lynch - good running back, had issues. they gave up on him faster than kelsay. why?
2008 - mckelvin - took a while to become servicable, but you don't really expect a first round pick to be your #2 CB
2009 - maybin - tie between mike williams and him for being the biggest bust of the naughts for the bills
2009 - eric wood - good, but injury prone. great guy, solid pick
2010 - CJ spiller - a luxury pick at the time. great potential, hasn't really lived up to it. hopefully this year he shows that he's worth top billing. They could have had JPP and saved money on the mario signing
2011 - Dareus - good player with off the field issues. lacks consistency. good as part of a strong front 4, but not a game changer by himself. also seems to be in the dog house with coaching staff. he's the highest we drafted including Mike Williams. At the time, it was the no brainer call.
2012 - gilmore - boring CB pick. i just don't believe in db being that urgent a pick. i always like a strong and deep front 7.
2013 - EJ manuel - graded well out of the first round, the bills reached even when they traded back. no other qb from that class has performed well or better. jury is out. team needed a qb badly and the buddy blunder on the phone probably lost any chance of just bridging another year with fitz.
2014 - watkins - grades out very well as a WR. A little undersized in the sense that he isn't beast. but he player like a big player. however, does he have a qb to get him the ball.


so in conclusion, i completely agree. you can't trust this front office with big decisions. and it goes beyond the period you pointed out.

[better days]

2002- Mike williams - bust
2003- mcgahee - not a need, left the team, had a decent career
2004 - lee evans - while a beloved bill, he was one dimensional. not a game changer
2004 - losman - we all know that was a bust
2005 - no pick - perhaps for the best
2006 - donte whitner - all pro tweeter; can't cover the slot on 3rd down for two teams over 8 years. looking to be just as useless on his 3rd team
2006 - j mccargo - 2 sacks in his 4 years with the bills
2007 - marshawn lynch - good running back, had issues. they gave up on him faster than kelsay. why?
2008 - mckelvin - took a while to become servicable, but you don't really expect a first round pick to be your #2 CB
2009 - maybin - tie between mike williams and him for being the biggest bust of the naughts for the bills
2009 - eric wood - good, but injury prone. great guy, solid pick
2010 - CJ spiller - a luxury pick at the time. great potential, hasn't really lived up to it. hopefully this year he shows that he's worth top billing. They could have had JPP and saved money on the mario signing
2011 - Dareus - good player with off the field issues. lacks consistency. good as part of a strong front 4, but not a game changer by himself. also seems to be in the dog house with coaching staff. he's the highest we drafted including Mike Williams. At the time, it was the no brainer call.
2012 - gilmore - boring CB pick. i just don't believe in db being that urgent a pick. i always like a strong and deep front 7.
2013 - EJ manuel - graded well out of the first round, the bills reached even when they traded back. no other qb from that class has performed well or better. jury is out. team needed a qb badly and the buddy blunder on the phone probably lost any chance of just bridging another year with fitz.
2014 - watkins - grades out very well as a WR. A little undersized in the sense that he isn't beast. but he player like a big player. however, does he have a qb to get him the ball.


so in conclusion, i completely agree. you can't trust this front office with big decisions. and it goes beyond the period you pointed out.

It is funny to read posters that don't trust the front office & then show what PAST front offices did as if the current GM had ANYTHING to do with them.

It is like blaming you for something your 8th grade teacher did.

[trapezeus]

if your eighth grade teach was promoted to principal, followed you to college, and then was your boss and promoted to CEO over the last 10-20 years.

it's the same morons overseeing all these things for the last 14 years. i would be fine letting whaley and marrone stay once russ is gone. every coach, every scout, every player that comes through buffalo can't succeed. Is it really believable that we continuously miss or that there is an unchangable culture and group of people who continuously make the same repeated mistake.

let's be honest, this team's culture is to be loyal at the very top and to be yes men. and they know they have a safe job and they scape goat players, personnel and coaches for their failures. The new owner needs to start over. keeping brandon is the reason the team is as bad as it is.

[better days]

if your eighth grade teach was promoted to principal, followed you to college, and then was your boss and promoted to CEO over the last 10-20 years.

it's the same morons overseeing all these things for the last 14 years. i would be fine letting whaley and marrone stay once russ is gone. every coach, every scout, every player that comes through buffalo can't succeed. Is it really believable that we continuously miss or that there is an unchangable culture and group of people who continuously make the same repeated mistake.

let's be honest, this team's culture is to be loyal at the very top and to be yes men. and they know they have a safe job and they scape goat players, personnel and coaches for their failures. The new owner needs to start over. keeping brandon is the reason the team is as bad as it is.

That is total BS. Aside from hiring Whaley & Marrone, Brandon has not done anything in regards to football matters.

he is now the defacto owner & IMO a great marketing guy.

[trapezeus]

what marketing? selling a game toronto that was an abysmal failure? selling football in buffalo? he was the GM in that 2002-2014 span. he continues to be a huge influence.

tell me what other business lets a guy get promoted over and over again, fail at each stop, credit him for something that he's had minimal impact on (season ticket sales) and had him go all the way to the top? And of the companies that have done that, which ones are considered excellent companies.

you are delusional if you think that brandon wasn't the smithers to ralph's monty burns. and now that he's consolidated most of the operations, he follows the role of his mentor. can't get out of his own way.

Whaley has been with the team for a long time now. i doubt he's been sitting on the sidelines with minimal input because buddy was there. He is just as much to blame for 2010 to current as anyone else.

nothing is changing until they sell this team. and if the new owner decides brandon is staying, guess what? the team's culture won't change and he'll be pushing for the same BS. "get early season games to increase revenue, don't resign the best of our players because they are too expensive, resign the second tier guys to get to floor and keep churning on the draft. No importance is given to getting it right. and when the revolt seems imminent, play the card of moving and talk about getting a rebuild that you are excited about."

[chris66]

It is funny to read posters that don't trust the front office & then show what PAST front offices did as if the current GM had ANYTHING to do with them.

It is like blaming you for something your 8th grade teacher did.current gm was head of player personnel and scouting for the last 5 drafts. you can definitely put it on his shoulders as much as Nix.
I'll take it further. the best draft the bills had in the last 10 years was 09. witht Woods, Levitre, and Byrd. That draft was ran by Russ Brandon. So the bean counter drafted better than the so called personnel guys. That's fact not opinion

[better days]

current gm was head of player personnel and scouting for the last 5 drafts. you can definitely put it on his shoulders as much as Nix.
I'll take it further. the best draft the bills had in the last 10 years was 09. witht Woods, Levitre, and Byrd. That draft was ran by Russ Brandon. So the bean counter drafted better than the so called personnel guys. That's fact not opinion

When Nix got to Buffalo, the scouting dept was in shambles.

Since Nix fixed the scouting Department, the Bills have drafted very well.

[better days]

what marketing? selling a game toronto that was an abysmal failure? selling football in buffalo? he was the GM in that 2002-2014 span. he continues to be a huge influence.

tell me what other business lets a guy get promoted over and over again, fail at each stop, credit him for something that he's had minimal impact on (season ticket sales) and had him go all the way to the top? And of the companies that have done that, which ones are considered excellent companies.

you are delusional if you think that brandon wasn't the smithers to ralph's monty burns. and now that he's consolidated most of the operations, he follows the role of his mentor. can't get out of his own way.

Whaley has been with the team for a long time now. i doubt he's been sitting on the sidelines with minimal input because buddy was there. He is just as much to blame for 2010 to current as anyone else.

nothing is changing until they sell this team. and if the new owner decides brandon is staying, guess what? the team's culture won't change and he'll be pushing for the same BS. "get early season games to increase revenue, don't resign the best of our players because they are too expensive, resign the second tier guys to get to floor and keep churning on the draft. No importance is given to getting it right. and when the revolt seems imminent, play the card of moving and talk about getting a rebuild that you are excited about."

Brandon was never the GM & never had input on the draft.

[justasportsfan]

my point on whaley's gamble isn't on his track record evaluating players. its just that going all in on a WR with a QB position that is simply a question mark, is a problem. and that historically doesn't look as good as it seems.

if you have peyton and bring in a rookie smart WR, he can get up to speed faster.
if you have EJ who is just unproven, the WR might not make an impact what so ever in that first year. Agreed. A qb can make a wr look good but on the other hand, giving a qb weapons also helps a qb especially a receiver like Watkins who has had the ability to take a 5 yards catch into a huge gain. At this point we don't know whether which scenario will pan out. One thing we know is that EJ didn't have the chemistry that Fitz had with Stevie being that SJ ran routes differently compared to other receivers.


the bills were a 6-10 team last year. They could have easily been 2-14 as well as 10-6 based on the breaks. i think the gamble works if the OL picks they took were very good and get up to speed fast. that's a decent gamble. if the defense responds to schwarz scheme quickly and preston brown can step in to fill in the holes of kiko. .agreed.


it doesnt work if EJ and the WR corp do not gel. if the ol was poorly scouted and not improved. if the run game (with an older Fred and an oft injured CJ) stall. Then the bills offense will do what they did to a pretty good d last year. they'll tire them out from having good first halvs and not do enough to win games.. agreed


and we all kind of know if its a slow start for the bills, there is no bouncing back in this team. and if they open the season 1-3, they will be a bottom 3rd team. most likely but there have been teams that have been able to gel mid season to late and still make playoffs.


if that happens, we'll know that EJ isn't an NFL starter. he's a stop gap at best. and we may have a top 10 pick that we forfeited and will pass on the very qb who could take a team with some WR talent and a decent OL and turn it around quickly. We just won't have that available to us. and at that point it becomes another long rebuild.
I have been very critical of EJ but we need this whole second season to evaluate him. An improved OL should make our running game more potent. EJ's been given every chance to succeed and he needs to be a lot more improved than last year for us to give him the benefit of a doubt. If the running game gets better than lats year and the D is better than last year, we can still win with an efficient EJ as long as he is consistently efficient. However, I want more than an efficient qb, I want a franchise qb.

[chris66]

Brandon was never the GM & never had input on the draft.yeah he did 09 was his draft. he was moved to president when they hired Nix the following year

[chris66]

When Nix got to Buffalo, the scouting dept was in shambles.

Since Nix fixed the scouting Department, the Bills have drafted very well.drafted so well they havent touched 7 wins.

[better days]

drafted so well they havent touched 7 wins.

The Sabres haven't won the Stanley Cup yet either......

Both are poised for SUCCESS.

[better days]

yeah he did 09 was his draft. he was moved to president when they hired Nix the following year

Yeah he was the GM that year, but I think Jauron was responsible for the draft.

Aside from Maybin which was a HUGE WIFF, not a bad draft.

[trapezeus]

better days, you buy the PR from the bills hook line and sinker. Every time, "oh it was someone else, he's gone now, watch us succeed." and the teams record keeps getting worse. as they shuffle the chairs on the titanic, is there ever gooing to be proof to you that the same people just seemingly doing different jobs is the problem?

[stuckincincy]

Yeah he was the GM that year, but I think Jauron was responsible for the draft.

Aside from Maybin which was a HUGE WIFF, not a bad draft.

Very good draft - after Maybin, it was Woods, Byrd, Levitre. But they had 2 first and 2 second round picks.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=0610&type=team

[YardRat]

2002- Mike williams - bust
2003- mcgahee - not a need, left the team, had a decent career
2004 - lee evans - while a beloved bill, he was one dimensional. not a game changer
2004 - losman - we all know that was a bust
2005 - no pick - perhaps for the best
2006 - donte whitner - all pro tweeter; can't cover the slot on 3rd down for two teams over 8 years. looking to be just as useless on his 3rd team
2006 - j mccargo - 2 sacks in his 4 years with the bills
2007 - marshawn lynch - good running back, had issues. they gave up on him faster than kelsay. why?
2008 - mckelvin - took a while to become servicable, but you don't really expect a first round pick to be your #2 CB
2009 - maybin - tie between mike williams and him for being the biggest bust of the naughts for the bills
2009 - eric wood - good, but injury prone. great guy, solid pick
2010 - CJ spiller - a luxury pick at the time. great potential, hasn't really lived up to it. hopefully this year he shows that he's worth top billing. They could have had JPP and saved money on the mario signing
2011 - Dareus - good player with off the field issues. lacks consistency. good as part of a strong front 4, but not a game changer by himself. also seems to be in the dog house with coaching staff. he's the highest we drafted including Mike Williams. At the time, it was the no brainer call.
2012 - gilmore - boring CB pick. i just don't believe in db being that urgent a pick. i always like a strong and deep front 7.
2013 - EJ manuel - graded well out of the first round, the bills reached even when they traded back. no other qb from that class has performed well or better. jury is out. team needed a qb badly and the buddy blunder on the phone probably lost any chance of just bridging another year with fitz.
2014 - watkins - grades out very well as a WR. A little undersized in the sense that he isn't beast. but he player like a big player. however, does he have a qb to get him the ball.


so in conclusion, i completely agree. you can't trust this front office with big decisions. and it goes beyond the period you pointed out.

And then there is the Seattle Seahawks...

2002- TE Jerramy Stevens
2003- CB Marcus Trufant
2004 - DT Marcus Tubbs
2005 - C Chris Spencer
2006 - CB Kelly Jennings
2007 - no pick
2008 - DE Lawrence Jackson
2009 - LB Aaron Curry
2010 - OT Russell Okung
2011 -G James Carpenter
2012 - DE Bruce Irvin
2013 -no pick
2014 - no pick

Going by first round picks all by themselves, the Super Bowl champions front office hasn't exactly hit any more home runs than Buffalo...maybe they should be cut loose also.

What do they have from the same time period? Three left on the roster, three starters? All of those since 2010? Hell, Buffalo has five starters over the same period, seven if you count Spiller and Watkins.

[trapezeus]

And then there is the Seattle Seahawks...

2002- TE Jerramy Stevens
2003- CB Marcus Trufant
2004 - DT Marcus Tubbs
2005 - C Chris Spencer
2006 - CB Kelly Jennings
2007 - no pick
2008 - DE Lawrence Jackson
2009 - LB Aaron Curry
2010 - OT Russell Okung
2011 -G James Carpenter
2012 - DE Bruce Irvin
2013 -no pick
2014 - no pick

Going by first round picks all by themselves, the Super Bowl champions front office hasn't exactly hit any more home runs than Buffalo...maybe they should be cut loose also.

What do they have from the same time period? Three left on the roster, three starters? All of those since 2010? Hell, Buffalo has five starters over the same period, seven if you count Spiller and Watkins.

True. I thought that Carroll's trading picks away was deadly. I'm still kind of in shock that he won a Super BowlSuper Bowl

[better days]

better days, you buy the PR from the bills hook line and sinker. Every time, "oh it was someone else, he's gone now, watch us succeed." and the teams record keeps getting worse. as they shuffle the chairs on the titanic, is there ever gooing to be proof to you that the same people just seemingly doing different jobs is the problem?

I don't say that at all. I am just saying don't lay blame where it does not belong.

I have no idea if Marrone & Manuel will lead the bills to success or not.

I am hopeful they will, but I'm not betting any money on it.

I said last year if Marrone can't get at least 6 wins he should be fired.

Well, I think he needs to get at least 8 wins this year or he should be fired.