Buffalo Bills aiming to become NFL's next worst-to-first wonder

[Fletch]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000366358/article/buffalo-bills-aiming-to-become-nfls-next-worsttofirst-wonder

PITTSFORD, N.Y. -- The first NFL training camp practice of 2014 went a long way in explaining why these sessions have become so popular.


A general manager jumping out of his shoes talking about a potential breakthrough. A young quarterback asking for more responsibility. A fan base electrified by the first sight of its team since December.

You'd never know the Buffalo Bills (http://www.nfl.com/teams/buffalobills/profile?team=BUF) went 6-10 last year.


But that's the beauty of all this. It's July, and like everyone else in the league, the Bills (http://www.nfl.com/teams/buffalobills/profile?team=BUF) are undefeated. Buffalo's players and coaches believe that they very well could be -- maybe even should be -- the team to continue an annual tradition in the NFL: the worst-to-first turnaround. More than just that, it's the way they see themselves.

[More and video at link]

[Fletch]

Lol, just reading through this.

"I give all the credit in the world to (team president) Russ Brandon," Whaley said. "He's been a great leader through this whole process. His No. 1 edict to everybody in the building is, 'Business as usual.'

Business as usual. LOL And everyone thinks that Whaley's different.

When do we get business as unusual. That might be somewhat more refreshing.

[coastal]

All dead men walking...

[trapezeus]

hard to argue with you there.

the article seems to come up every year and every year the bills become a boring team to watch by November. Eventually (i hope) this has to be true.

[Fletch]

hard to argue with you there.

the article seems to come up every year and every year the bills become a boring team to watch by November. Eventually (i hope) this has to be true.

Yeah, we all do. But as I look at that list, I see other teams that I'd put my money on before I'd put it on us.

Tampa for instance. They not only beat us last year but dusted us. Carolina is much weaker this year and despite still having better and more experienced WRs than we have, are depleted there. I expect them to be a number of games worse, leaving Atlanta and NO for Tampa to contend with. I also don't know why Atlanta's not on that list. I expect them to rebound nicely. But like Houston, both teams are not far removed from "first" but only had bad seasons last year.

Tampa drafted Mike Evans who I expect will make more of an impact than Watkins. Tampa has a better QB too. They get Doug Martin back from injury too.

Cleveland beat us last year too. Pettine, who I think is massively overrated, seems to be viewed as something close to a great here. If that's true, then I'd think that Cleveland's chances are better also except that they have Baltimore and Cincy to contend with. Manziel may not last an NFL career, but if he can make it through one season it could be the difference for them. There too, their WRs have much more experience than ours, but everyone's talking as if they have nothing in the WR department while they talk about ours as if they're accomplished in the NFL or something when they're clearly not.

[better days]

Yeah, we all do. But as I look at that list, I see other teams that I'd put my money on before I'd put it on us.

Tampa for instance. They not only beat us last year but dusted us. Carolina is much weaker this year and despite still having better and more experienced WRs than we have, are depleted there. I expect them to be a number of games worse, leaving Atlanta and NO for Tampa to contend with. I also don't know why Atlanta's not on that list. I expect them to rebound nicely. But like Houston, both teams are not far removed from "first" but only had bad seasons last year.

Tampa drafted Mike Evans who I expect will make more of an impact than Watkins. Tampa has a better QB too. They get Doug Martin back from injury too.

Cleveland beat us last year too. Pettine, who I think is massively overrated, seems to be viewed as something close to a great here. If that's true, then I'd think that Cleveland's chances are better also except that they have Baltimore and Cincy to contend with. Manziel may not last an NFL career, but if he can make it through one season it could be the difference for them. There too, their WRs have much more experience than ours, but everyone's talking as if they have nothing in the WR department while they talk about ours as if they're accomplished in the NFL or something when they're clearly not.

LMAO at Carolina having better receivers than Buffalo.

The Panthers receivers may be more experienced than the Bills, but they are ALL MEDIOCRE.

I do expect the Bucs to finish ahead of the Panthers in the NFC South & will not be surprised if they win the division.

And yes the Bucs got Martin back from injury and hopefully he plays as well as in the past, but the Bills have a number of good RB's.

[Mr. Pink]

LMAO at Carolina having better receivers than Buffalo.

The Panthers receivers may be more experienced than the Bills, but they are ALL MEDIOCRE.

I do expect the Bucs to finish ahead of the Panthers in the NFC South & will not be surprised if they win the division.

And yes the Bucs got Martin back from injury and hopefully he plays as well as in the past, but the Bills have a number of good RB's.

Are you high?

The Bucs not only are the worst team in the NFC South, they may be the worst team in the entire NFC.

[Mahdi]

There are two things that show me that the Bills are NOT intent on winning or at least doing everything they can to ensure we are a playoff team.

First: No backup QB with significant NFL experience. Tampa got Josh McCown, Jets got Vick while the Bills go with Tuel and the other guy.

Second: Depth at DE. Schwartz's system relies heavily on DEs yet we have 1 true DE and 2 converted LBs on the other side. 1 injury and we are done.

[Mahdi]

Are you high?

The Bucs not only are the worst team in the NFC South, they may be the worst team in the entire NFC.

The Bucs have playmakers all over their team. With more stability at QB which they get with McCown they will be a solid team.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Thread full of old curmudgeons.... BILLS BLOW WAAAAHHHH

[The Jokeman]

The Bucs have playmakers all over their team. With more stability at QB which they get with McCown they will be a solid team.
McCown is a journeyman backup QB at best. Sure he was great in Chicago last year but was he a product of a good surrounding cast with guys like Forte, Marshall and Jefferies around him? I think so and don't expect him to be the same with a recovering Doug Martin, Vincent Jackson and rookie Mike Evans. I fully expect him to McCown will be benched by Week 9 and the Bucs will give the reins back to Glennon who will likely struggle and lead the Bucs to take a QB with their 1st Round pick next year.

[Fletch]

The Panthers receivers may be more experienced than the Bills, but they are ALL MEDIOCRE.

I love comments like this. Besides Mike Williams, whom we haven't heard jack siht about anything positive, we don't have one receiver on the team that to date has put up better numbers than Cotchery's or Avant's best season. Watkins aside, who's a rookie, we could very sell have a slate full of WRs that are mediocre too.

I along with you suspect that they'll be better, but I'll bet you anything that Carolina's leading WR puts up better numbers than any one of ours simply because they have a more competent, much more competent, QB than we do, and better TEs to help the WRs.

Right now based on what we're hearing, or not hearing, Mike Williams sounds quite likely to slip right into that mediocre role that you're talking about. Woods has a lot to prove as does Goodwin before crowning them non-mediocre too. That leaves Watkins. He's a rookie. It's unlikely that he's going to be fantastic as a rookie, and pardon me while the camp revues are what they were for TO for example, as he blows past a bunch of defenders whose names you don't even know.

The Panthers don't have much, but until proven otherwise, neither do we. If our receivers were on another team you and everyone else would be discounting Watkins as a rookie and saying big deal to the rest until proven otherwise. Cotchery and Avant will both put up between 800 and 1,000 yards easily with Newton throwing, and Tiquan Underwood is a Goodwin clone with better upside and a few more skills in his set.

So unless our receivers explode this season, which will require Manuel exploding, we'll see at the end of the season. But I'm willing to put up a friendly wager that their leading WR has 1,000 yards and at least 7 TDs. I wouldn't make that wager for any one of our WRs at the moment. Now next season, depending upon how Watkins develops, maybe him, but not as a rookie. He's not going up against the best DBs in the league in camp, to the contrary. We don't have any LBs on the roster that are healthy currently that are any good against the pass. So enjoy this camp stuff while you can, I know I am as at least it's something to have as a hope, but don't expect Watkins to be lighting things up as a rookie against the Jets, Pats, or a number of other teams that we play, like Denver, when he's going up against some of the best DBs.

To look at this realistically, take the names off the receivers that we have. We have a second year 2nd-round WR that put up almost 600 yards and 3 TDs last season, another 2nd-year 3rd-round WR that put up less than 300 yards and 3TDs last year whose best collegiate season wasn't much better, neither of which had a single 100-yard game, and another WR that's pretty much on his "last chance" in the NFL whose career has been about as up-and-down as it could be, and on that no other teams were really interested in not to mention one that we've heard nothing positive about and only negatives thus far, and a rookie 1st-round hopefully phenom. There isn't a receiver on the team after that that is even guaranteed a roster spot.

Looking at it that way, it should look a little different. The problem is that everyone here knows better and knows that Watkins is going to shatter rookie records, Woods is going to put up 1,000 yards, Mike Williams is going to have a resurgence so that collectively they put up 4,000 yards and 25 TDs. I think that the team will be lucky to hit 20 total passing TDs, distribute them as you will. I don't see us being able to keep opposing offenses off the field this season because our pass D stinks without any pass-D LBs in the mix and Byrd now gone, not to mention that we play some of the best passing offenses in the league this season and more than last season.

Anyway, two second-year WRs and one rookie along with whomever else makes the roster, including Williams, is hardly much better than anyone. The whole enchilada comes down to how good Watkins is. If he's not immediately good enough to draw double-coverages and be the #1, then this group is going to look every bit as mediocre as you accurately state that the Panther WRs are. As to Williams, right now it's looking as if we'll be lucky if he has a 500/4 season.

And oh yeah, just by the way, the Panthers drafted a rookie named Kelvin Benjamin who did play in more of a pro-style offense at FSU and who does have that prototypical Megatron, Julio Jones, and AJ Green size, and I'll bet you anything that his rookie season is better than Watkins simply because he's got a much better and more accurate QB throwing him the ball. So when you factor him in, we're really comparing Avant, Cotchery, and Underwood to Woods, Williams, and Goodwin.

[Fletch]

I fully expect him to McCown will be benched by Week 9 and the Bucs will give the reins back to Glennon who will likely struggle and lead the Bucs to take a QB with their 1st Round pick next year.

LOL

If he struggles like he struggled last season he'll be in the top-10 of QBs if he plays all 16.

- - - Updated - - -


Are you high?

The Bucs not only are the worst team in the NFC South, they may be the worst team in the entire NFC.

They dismantled us last season.

[Fletch]

There are two things that show me that the Bills are NOT intent on winning or at least doing everything they can to ensure we are a playoff team.

First: No backup QB with significant NFL experience. Tampa got Josh McCown, Jets got Vick while the Bills go with Tuel and the other guy.

Second: Depth at DE. Schwartz's system relies heavily on DEs yet we have 1 true DE and 2 converted LBs on the other side. 1 injury and we are done.

We also no longer have a single LB on the roster that's above average against the pass. Everyone's overlooking that but it's going to bite us in the ass in a big way this fall. We play so many good passing teams. McKelvin and Williams once again are going to be overwhelmed just as they've been throughout their careers besides last season.

- - - Updated - - -


Thread full of old curmudgeons.... BILLS BLOW WAAAAHHHH

In walks the drunkard ...

; )

[better days]

McCown is a journeyman backup QB at best. Sure he was great in Chicago last year but was he a product of a good surrounding cast with guys like Forte, Marshall and Jefferies around him? I think so and don't expect him to be the same with a recovering Doug Martin, Vincent Jackson and rookie Mike Evans. I fully expect him to McCown will be benched by Week 9 and the Bucs will give the reins back to Glennon who will likely struggle and lead the Bucs to take a QB with their 1st Round pick next year.

Glennon had the best rookie year of any QB in the NFL.

Martin, Jackson and Evans > Forte, Marshall and Jefferies.

Teams go from worst to first in the NFC South all the time.

I think the Bucs can play with the Falcons & Panthers with no problem.

The Saints are the favorite to win the division, but you never know, injuries happen.

[better days]

We also no longer have a single LB on the roster that's above average against the pass. Everyone's overlooking that but it's going to bite us in the ass in a big way this fall. We play so many good passing teams. McKelvin and Williams once again are going to be overwhelmed just as they've been throughout their careers besides last season.

- - - Updated - - -



In walks the drunkard ...

; )

Linebackers are responsible for TE's & RB's in the passing game.

Can't wait to see Spikes welcome Gronk back to Buffalo.

[better days]

Are you high?

The Bucs not only are the worst team in the NFC South, they may be the worst team in the entire NFC.

More evidence that you don't know what you are talking about.

[Fletch]

Glennon had the best rookie year of any QB in the NFL.

Martin, Jackson and Evans > Forte, Marshall and Jefferies.

Teams go from worst to first in the NFC South all the time.

I think the Bucs can play with the Falcons & Panthers with no problem.

The Saints are the favorite to win the division, but you never know, injuries happen.

Agreed.

If we measure by TDs thrown, Glennon had the 8th best season for any rookie ever behind Peyton, Wilson, Luck, Newton, Dalton, Griffin, and Marino. I didn't include Kelly because he wasn't in his first pro football season.

Glennon also started only 13 games whereas all of the others except for Marino started all 16. Had he started all 16 games he likely would have been anywhere between 3rd and 5th on that list.

People here don't do their homework.

By the way, that's one of your best posts ever.

[Fletch]

Linebackers are responsible for TE's & RB's in the passing game.

Can't wait to see Spikes welcome Gronk back to Buffalo.

Wrong, depends upon the D, but usually LBs are responsible for anything within their range of coverage, largely OTM short to medium type stuff and short outside stuff to the RBs or TEs as you said. LBs rarely play m2m unless it's a TE.

[Fletch]

More evidence that you don't know what you are talking about.

What I think is funny is that he says that the Bucs are horrible, but they're better this year, especially with Glennon in his second season, and yet they dismanteled us last season. It wasn't even a game, but we're expected to be much better. Typical forum logic and reasoning.

[better days]

I love comments like this. Besides Mike Williams, whom we haven't heard jack siht about anything positive, we don't have one receiver on the team that to date has put up better numbers than Cotchery's or Avant's best season. Watkins aside, who's a rookie, we could very sell have a slate full of WRs that are mediocre too.

I along with you suspect that they'll be better, but I'll bet you anything that Carolina's leading WR puts up better numbers than any one of ours simply because they have a more competent, much more competent, QB than we do, and better TEs to help the WRs.

Right now based on what we're hearing, or not hearing, Mike Williams sounds quite likely to slip right into that mediocre role that you're talking about. Woods has a lot to prove as does Goodwin before crowning them non-mediocre too. That leaves Watkins. He's a rookie. It's unlikely that he's going to be fantastic as a rookie, and pardon me while the camp revues are what they were for TO for example, as he blows past a bunch of defenders whose names you don't even know.

The Panthers don't have much, but until proven otherwise, neither do we. If our receivers were on another team you and everyone else would be discounting Watkins as a rookie and saying big deal to the rest until proven otherwise. Cotchery and Avant will both put up between 800 and 1,000 yards easily with Newton throwing, and Tiquan Underwood is a Goodwin clone with better upside and a few more skills in his set.

So unless our receivers explode this season, which will require Manuel exploding, we'll see at the end of the season. But I'm willing to put up a friendly wager that their leading WR has 1,000 yards and at least 7 TDs. I wouldn't make that wager for any one of our WRs at the moment. Now next season, depending upon how Watkins develops, maybe him, but not as a rookie. He's not going up against the best DBs in the league in camp, to the contrary. We don't have any LBs on the roster that are healthy currently that are any good against the pass. So enjoy this camp stuff while you can, I know I am as at least it's something to have as a hope, but don't expect Watkins to be lighting things up as a rookie against the Jets, Pats, or a number of other teams that we play, like Denver, when he's going up against some of the best DBs.

To look at this realistically, take the names off the receivers that we have. We have a second year 2nd-round WR that put up almost 600 yards and 3 TDs last season, another 2nd-year 3rd-round WR that put up less than 300 yards and 3TDs last year whose best collegiate season wasn't much better, neither of which had a single 100-yard game, and another WR that's pretty much on his "last chance" in the NFL whose career has been about as up-and-down as it could be, and on that no other teams were really interested in not to mention one that we've heard nothing positive about and only negatives thus far, and a rookie 1st-round hopefully phenom. There isn't a receiver on the team after that that is even guaranteed a roster spot.

Looking at it that way, it should look a little different. The problem is that everyone here knows better and knows that Watkins is going to shatter rookie records, Woods is going to put up 1,000 yards, Mike Williams is going to have a resurgence so that collectively they put up 4,000 yards and 25 TDs. I think that the team will be lucky to hit 20 total passing TDs, distribute them as you will. I don't see us being able to keep opposing offenses off the field this season because our pass D stinks without any pass-D LBs in the mix and Byrd now gone, not to mention that we play some of the best passing offenses in the league this season and more than last season.

Anyway, two second-year WRs and one rookie along with whomever else makes the roster, including Williams, is hardly much better than anyone. The whole enchilada comes down to how good Watkins is. If he's not immediately good enough to draw double-coverages and be the #1, then this group is going to look every bit as mediocre as you accurately state that the Panther WRs are. As to Williams, right now it's looking as if we'll be lucky if he has a 500/4 season.

And oh yeah, just by the way, the Panthers drafted a rookie named Kelvin Benjamin who did play in more of a pro-style offense at FSU and who does have that prototypical Megatron, Julio Jones, and AJ Green size, and I'll bet you anything that his rookie season is better than Watkins simply because he's got a much better and more accurate QB throwing him the ball. So when you factor him in, we're really comparing Avant, Cotchery, and Underwood to Woods, Williams, and Goodwin.

Well, I will agree that the Panthers receivers may put up better numbers than the Bills receivers because they have a better QB throwing them the ball, but we are talking about the receivers talent, not the QB's talent.

While unproven, the Bills look to have a better WR group than the Panthers do.

I had a similar argument with Opiv last year. He claimed Donald Jones & David Nelson were better receivers than the Bills rookies.

I disagreed with that & I disagree that the Panthers receivers are better than the Bills receivers. But yes the Bills receivers will have to go out & prove it on the field.

[Ginger Vitis]

Typical forum logic and reasoning.

Your logic of using one game as a example to determine who is the better team is hilarious.. The Patriots lost to the Jets and Dolphins last year using your logic the Pats aren't any better than the Jets or Phins

[better days]

Wrong, depends upon the D, but usually LBs are responsible for anything within their range of coverage, largely OTM short to medium type stuff and short outside stuff to the RBs or TEs as you said. LBs rarely play m2m unless it's a TE.

Agreed, LB's are responsible for their area which mostly includes TE's & RB's but also slot receivers & an occasional outside receiver going over the middle.

[OpIv37]

Thread full of old curmudgeons.... BILLS BLOW WAAAAHHHH
Oh, the irony.
"Somebody said the Bills blow- WAAAHHHH"

It's been a really long time since I've seen you actually contribute to a discussion. All you do is complain that other people complain too much.

[Mr. Pink]

McCown is a journeyman backup QB at best. Sure he was great in Chicago last year but was he a product of a good surrounding cast with guys like Forte, Marshall and Jefferies around him? I think so and don't expect him to be the same with a recovering Doug Martin, Vincent Jackson and rookie Mike Evans. I fully expect him to McCown will be benched by Week 9 and the Bucs will give the reins back to Glennon who will likely struggle and lead the Bucs to take a QB with their 1st Round pick next year.

Marc Trestman coaches every QB up as well, he's known for it.

Now McCown no longer has Trestman and will fall back to the garbage he was prior to last season leading to being benched for Glennon.

[Mr. Pink]

More evidence that you don't know what you are talking about.

Yeah okay, this coming from the guy who thought Tebow would be better than Manning means so much.

The Bucs are 4 win football team and will finish in last, again. In fact, they'll be lucky to have 1 win going into the bye.

Panthers, Rams, Falcons, Steelers, Saints, Ravens to start the year. That has 0-5 written all over it and Glennon being named starter coming out after the bye.

[Mr. Pink]

What I think is funny is that he says that the Bucs are horrible, but they're better this year, especially with Glennon in his second season, and yet they dismanteled us last season. It wasn't even a game, but we're expected to be much better. Typical forum logic and reasoning.

:rofl:

The Bills ain't finishing anywhere but last either.

The Bucs and Bills are both bottom feeders, along with Cleveland, Oakland, Houston.

Since the thread title is about worst to first...the team with the best chance at doing it is the Redskins. Foles won't play as well as he did last year, the Giants are a mess and the Cowboys are well an 8-8 type team as the Cowboys have been lately.

[stuckincincy]

:rofl:

The Bills ain't finishing anywhere but last either.

The Bucs and Bills are both bottom feeders, along with Cleveland, Oakland, Houston.

Since the thread title is about worst to first...the team with the best chance at doing it is the Redskins. Foles won't play as well as he did last year, the Giants are a mess and the Cowboys are well an 8-8 type team as the Cowboys have been lately.

Bucs made a splash in FA signings...DE Michael Johnson, DT Clinton McDonald, OT Anthony Collins. Drafted receiving help (WR Mike Evans at the #7 spot and TE Austin Seferian-Jenkens at the 38th spot in the 2nd). I think they might be on an upswing.

[better days]

:rofl:

The Bills ain't finishing anywhere but last either.

The Bucs and Bills are both bottom feeders, along with Cleveland, Oakland, Houston.

Since the thread title is about worst to first...the team with the best chance at doing it is the Redskins. Foles won't play as well as he did last year, the Giants are a mess and the Cowboys are well an 8-8 type team as the Cowboys have been lately.

IF RGIII plays as well as he did his rookie year the Skins could finish first.

But that is not very likely. RGIII most likely plays more like he did last year than his rookie year.

My concern for the Bucs is the OC who has no NFL experience. A lot rides on his shoulders.

But I think it is very likely whoever plays QB for the Bucs has a better year than RGIII.

[The Jokeman]

Bucs made a splash in FA signings...DE Michael Johnson, DT Clinton McDonald, OT Anthony Collins. Drafted receiving help (WR Mike Evans at the #7 spot and TE Austin Seferian-Jenkens at the 38th spot in the 2nd). I think they might be on an upswing.

I'll agree they improved their defense and offensive line but can't comment on their offensive skill positions but will say this if I was a Bucs fan I'd prefer Mike Williams over a rookie Mike Evans. I liked Austin Seferian-Jenkins as a prospect but doubt he'll be any better than Wright was for them last year in terms of receiving except in the redzone where his size might help. Yet I'm not sold on McCown as a QB as referenced before but Lovie's found ways to win with Rex Grossman so who knows.

[The Jokeman]

IF RGIII plays as well as he did his rookie year the Skins could finish first.

But that is not very likely. RGIII most likely plays more like he did last year than his rookie year.

My concern for the Bucs is the OC who has no NFL experience. A lot rides on his shoulders.

But I think it is very likely whoever plays QB for the Bucs has a better year than RGIII.

I'm hoping that Manuel plays as well as RGIII did last year before Jordan Reed got hurt.

[Fletch]

While unproven, the Bills look to have a better WR group than the Panthers do.

Says you. Watkins hasn't even taken a snap yet. Woods and Goodwin both had one season and neither one showed anyone that they're the next greats for this team. Quite the opposite with Goodwin whom most fans had higher expectations for.

But you said it, UNPROVEN. Come back when they're proven. Cotchery, Avant, Underwood are proven. They're far from great, but they're proven and have tons of experience, far more than our guys have. You and others talk as if collegiate experience translates to the NFL immediately. And who says that Kelvin Benjamin isn't going to be as good as Watkins? What, is this the first season of football you've watched? Clearly not, so have you ever seen players drafted later outperform ones drafted ahead of them? Happens all the time.

Just because we drafted Watkins doesn't mean that he's A, a shoe-in to do what everyone's expecting, or B, going to have the better NFL career. That rarely happens in fact. If it happens then great, we all hope it does, but it's hardly guaranteed so why are we talking about it like it is.

Also, we're talking about this season, not 2015. Next season this same set of WRs may be better than those, but right now they're not nearly as experienced, which is a fact, not an opinion. As I said, Woods nor Goodwin has proven that they're better than Avant or Cotchery yet.


I had a similar argument with Opiv last year. He claimed Donald Jones & David Nelson were better receivers than the Bills rookies.

I disagreed with that & I disagree that the Panthers receivers are better than the Bills receivers. But yes the Bills receivers will have to go out & prove it on the field.

Not sure what your point is. Nelson put up better numbers than Goodwin, and Nelson doesn't claim to have this ridiculous speed that we were all lectured was going to dominate the NFL by Goodwin. In fact, everyone has talked about Goodwin, Graham before him, Avian Black back in the day, all with blazing speed, but none ever do what we're told. Why? Because speed doesn't translate to the NFL without some other skills. At least Watkins has some of those skills giving us some real hope instead of fake hope.

Nelson was a backup in NY so it's not fair to compare him to Woods who started. But it's not like Woods really proved your point. Nelson's problem is that he can't stay healthy. Here you are riding him primarily for that reason, but when I apply the same logic to Manuel some people jump on me. That's a part of the package brother.

I actually remember that squabble last season and distinctly remember not particularly agreeing with OP as well, but I also remember thinking that it was a wash at that point. So far though not one of the four has proven himself much beyond the fact that Woods had a decent but far from stellar rookie campaign. If he doesn't improve by much this year no one's going to be talking about him as if he's a competent starter for the 2015 season. That says a lot right there. Last season was a good start but he'll need to improve.

[Fletch]

Your logic of using one game as a example to determine who is the better team is hilarious.. The Patriots lost to the Jets and Dolphins last year using your logic the Pats aren't any better than the Jets or Phins

No, but if they're that horrid then we got whupped by a horrid team is my point. I think that they were much better than their 4-12 record last year, while we were worse than out 6-10. It's one data point.

[Fletch]

Oh, the irony.
"Somebody said the Bills blow- WAAAHHHH"

It's been a really long time since I've seen you actually contribute to a discussion. All you do is complain that other people complain too much.

I'd like to file a grievance about people filing too many grievances.

[Fletch]

The Bucs and Bills are both bottom feeders, along with Cleveland, Oakland, Houston.

I'll make a friendly wager that the Bucs have a better record than us by at least two games this season.

I'll throw in that Mike Evans posts more yards and more TDs than Watkins does.

[Fletch]

IF RGIII plays as well as he did his rookie year the Skins could finish first.

But that is not very likely. RGIII most likely plays more like he did last year than his rookie year.

My concern for the Bucs is the OC who has no NFL experience. A lot rides on his shoulders.

But I think it is very likely whoever plays QB for the Bucs has a better year than RGIII.

One more example regarding a QB that was significantly more touted than Manuel that regressed and hasn't been the shoe-in that he was supposed to be.

The point is that it happens all the time and we're obviously not exempt, but Manuel never showed what RGIII showed at any level.

As to the Bucs OC, that might make some sense if we had coaching at the three top spots that were proven. Schwartz is the most proven, but Marrone and Hackett are far from proven and there aren't a whole lot of people anywhere that think that Hackett is good.

[Mr. Pink]

I'll make a friendly wager that the Bucs have a better record than us by at least two games this season.

I'll throw in that Mike Evans posts more yards and more TDs than Watkins does.

Your top wager is easy money. The Bucs ain't winning 7-8 games. The Bills will win 5 or 6 because that's what they do. The Bucs will be lucky to go 2-4 in their division, 1-3 vs the AFC North and somehow are gonna win 4 or 5 of these 6 against conference opponents which include the Rams, Packers, Bears, Lions, Vikings, Redskins?

The second one is another easy money bet...Vincent Jackson is and will remain their clear cut 1 and will take touches away from Evans. Meanwhile Watkins without a shadow of a doubt will be the clear cut 1 here. Being the clear 1 will allow for more touches and chances.

I don't feel like multiquoting so...RGIII "regressed" because he wasn't healthy.

[Fletch]

Your top wager is easy money. The Bucs ain't winning 7-8 games. The Bills will win 5 or 6 because that's what they do. The Bucs will be lucky to go 2-4 in their division, 1-3 vs the AFC North and somehow are gonna win 4 or 5 of these 6 against conference opponents which include the Rams, Packers, Bears, Lions, Vikings, Redskins?

The second one is another easy money bet...Vincent Jackson is and will remain their clear cut 1 and will take touches away from Evans. Meanwhile Watkins without a shadow of a doubt will be the clear cut 1 here. Being the clear 1 will allow for more touches and chances.

I don't feel like multiquoting so...RGIII "regressed" because he wasn't healthy.

Correction, the Bills have been going 6-10. I don't see it this season. I'm thinking more 4-12.

As to the second one, I don't care if he takes touches away from Evans, and I disagree. Those are the two starters there. One starter doesn't take touches from another. IMO both of them will have more yards than Watkins. They don't have any other WRs on that team. They also don't have a good TE the last time I checked. As I mentioned, Glennon had the 8th best season ever for a rookie QB, that should mean something. I suspect that he'll make a leap this season.

As to RGIII, you missed the point completely, there are a million other examples, pick one.

[Mr. Pink]

Correction, the Bills have been going 6-10. I don't see it this season. I'm thinking more 4-12.

As to the second one, I don't care if he takes touches away from Evans, and I disagree. Those are the two starters there. One starter doesn't take touches from another. IMO both of them will have more yards than Watkins. They don't have any other WRs on that team. They also don't have a good TE the last time I checked. As I mentioned, Glennon had the 8th best season ever for a rookie QB, that should mean something. I suspect that he'll make a leap this season.

As to RGIII, you missed the point completely, there are a million other examples, pick one.

And the Bills have Robert Woods and Sammy Watkins. Watkins is the better receiver of the two, he's the clear number 1. Even if you want to try and claim he hasn't proved to be such, his draft position and what was given up to acquire him will demand it. WRs put up big numbers with garbage QBs all the time in the NFL since you want to say EJ Manuel will devalue Watkins production. Look at what Lee Evans did here with Losman, Roddy White with Harrington, Redman, castoffs in ATL, Kevin Johnson - who is a scrub in Cleveland with Tim Couch. Calvin Johnson on the 0-16 Lions lead by Orlovsky, Kitna and Culpepper. 70 catches for 1200 yards and 8 TDs is reasonable expectations for Watkins. After all Stevie had 52 catches in 12 games and that has be replaced by someone, who is that likely to be replaced by? The teams new number 1 WR. Speaking of Stevie he was able to put up 70-1000-7 with Fitzpatrick.

Glennon won't even be the starter until after the bye when the Bucs are likely 0-5. He'll be on a short leash and when the Bucs start slowly, with what their schedule looks like up to the bye, it'll happen - he'll be benched. Unless you're thinking the Bucs decided to pay him 5m to sit on the bench.

Even if you think the Bills win only 4 games, where are the 6 wins on the Bucs schedule? I'll give them the 3 wins between their own division and the AFC North...they have to pull 3 wins out of the conference opponents I listed. Those 3 wins simply aren't there.

How did I miss the point on RGIII? He wasn't healthy. He didn't step into his throws. He was tentative. Being healed up will do wonders for his game. And with their new offensive style, he won't be running for 700 yards like he did as a rookie and subjecting himself to more hits on his legs.

[Mace]

It's fun to think of the Bills getting anywhere, but I sure don't see it happening.

[better days]

One more example regarding a QB that was significantly more touted than Manuel that regressed and hasn't been the shoe-in that he was supposed to be.

The point is that it happens all the time and we're obviously not exempt, but Manuel never showed what RGIII showed at any level.

As to the Bucs OC, that might make some sense if we had coaching at the three top spots that were proven. Schwartz is the most proven, but Marrone and Hackett are far from proven and there aren't a whole lot of people anywhere that think that Hackett is good.

I agree about Marrone & Hackett to a point.

At least Marrone has Coached in the NFL before he got the Bills Job & was a Head Coach at Syracuse as well.

And now Hackett has a year under his belt in the NFL.

The Bucs OC Jeff Tedford has never Coached in the NFL but was an offensive guru in College. We will see how he does in the NFL.

For me EJ, Hackett & Crossman the Special teams Coach all have to prove themselves this year.

But at this point I am not writing off any of them.............well maybe Crossman.

[Fletch]

And the Bills have Robert Woods and Sammy Watkins. Watkins is the better receiver of the two, he's the clear number 1.

The Bucs have Vincent Jackson and Mike Evans. So now you're claiming that Watkins/Woods > Jackson/Evans

Classic! Exactly how people on your side of this forum think. Unfortunately, anyone that thinks that is a fool. Watkins may never be as good as Jackson. I'll be happy if he's as good, and that's going to be expected given what we gave up. Maybe more.



How did I miss the point on RGIII?

As I said, pick any of any other number of QBs whose second seasons were not as good as their rookie seasons. Happens all the time.

Still need further clarification. I'll concur on RGIII, just pick any other large remaining number of QBs that fit the argument.

I'll put it another way, there is no guarantee that Manuel improves. There's no guarantee that if he does improve that it will be by nearly enough to A, have justified reaching for him in last year's draft, or B, that keeps his job secure in 2015, especially if he gets injured and especially under a new owner who would then in turn get a new GM (hopefully) who would put a new set of coaches in.

Honestly, you're fooling yourself if you think that Manuel's closer to signficant improvement than he is to not cutting the mustard. Oh sure, we'll wait the season, it's not like we have a choice due to the superb planning over the last two decades by our crack front office, but there aren't a whole lot of people out there, bright ones anyway, that would put their money on the odds that Manuel cuts it.

Everyone likes to say "we don't know," but there are a lot of things that we do know which are the biggest factors in predicting things. People here, and people in our front office and on our coaching staffs over the years, choose to simply ignore those things and signs and then make corresponding decisions as if those signs aren't there. That doesn't mean that they're not. This isn't hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil, this is profession that people get paid good money to do, it's just that here in Buffalo under Wilson's jobs program we've been cursed.

On the message boards this stuff is expected. We get it every year. We've cycled through this nonsense so many times over the years that those on board with team statements and not critical of them should be ashamed of themselves. Instead, it's wash, rinse, repeat.

Johnson, Flutie, Bledsoe, Van Pelt, Losman, Holcomb, Edwards (the next great one according to Bill Walsh), Fitzpatrick, soon to be Manuel.

The only hope that I have that we won't take some other mid-2nd round projection with our 7th overall pick in the future because our GM knows more than everyone else in the world is new ownership.

[Mr. Pink]

The Bucs have Vincent Jackson and Mike Evans. So now you're claiming that Watkins/Woods > Jackson/Evans

Classic! Exactly how people on your side of this forum think. Unfortunately, anyone that thinks that is a fool. Watkins may never be as good as Jackson. I'll be happy if he's as good, and that's going to be expected given what we gave up. Maybe more.

Where do you get that I say the Bills top two are better? Are you stupid or just daft on purpose to fit your argument?

Jackson is the best WR of the bunch and as such will see more looks and targets that Evans. Just like if he was here he would see more targets than Sammy. Sammy > Woods and as such will see more targets.

Add that all up Sammy will see more targets than Evans which in turn will allow him to put up better numbers.

What part of that do you not understand?

Feel free to twist that however you choose.

And EJ Manuel isn't even the best QB on the roster here, but again twist your arguments any way you choose.

[Fletch]

Where do you get that I say the Bills top two are better? Are you stupid or just daft on purpose to fit your argument?

Jackson is the best WR of the bunch and as such will see more looks and targets that Evans. Just like if he was here he would see more targets than Sammy. Sammy > Woods and as such will see more targets.

Add that all up Sammy will see more targets than Evans which in turn will allow him to put up better numbers.

What part of that do you not understand?

Feel free to twist that however you choose.

And EJ Manuel isn't even the best QB on the roster here, but again twist your arguments any way you choose.

Talk about stupid. The argument wasn't about Sammy being better or worse than Woods, it was about which team has better WRs.

You're the idiot that started comparing Bills WRs.

I wish we knew each other so that I could make a wager with you and take your money at the end of the season.

I mean honestly, you say I'm stupid, but how stupid is someone that talks about a team that claims that it's going to run more to minimize the passing game, compares it to a team that had a rookie QB post top-10 all-time rookie numbers, and insist that one of two WRs that's worth anything on that team, is going to get fewer targets than another rookie on a team that has not one but two notable WRs to contend with?

Seriously? Who's the big threat to take targets from Jackson and Evans? What, Underwood? LOL He's their third best probably, and a clone of Goodwin.

What, Tommy Streeter? Louis Murphy?

Again, if you'd read what I wrote I said that both Jackson and Evans will have more catches than Watkins. Presumably if they have more catches, they'll likely have more targets unless Watkins is Mr. Butterfingers this season, which will hardly prove your point.

Not to even mention that Glennon made Manuel look like Wilson vs. Weeden last season.

I understand being a fan, what I don't understand is this willingness to hallucinate.