Watkins or Evans, ... just curious ...

[Fletch]

I realize that Evans was not available with our 9th overall, but let's assume that it wouldn't have taken next year's 1st-rounder to trade up to get him. My position has been that Evans will end up being both the better rookie and better NFL WR over the years for reasons that I've explained.

As a guide, Cleveland traded our 9th overall and their 5th rounder for Minnesota's 8th overall. So assume that we had traded 1st's along with any other single pick that wasn't next year's 1st rounder.

Put yourself in the GM chair. Would you have traded away our 1st and 4th next year to get Watkins, or would you have simply swapped 1st's along with another later pick in this year's draft and taken Evans?

I'll bookmark the thread and we'll come back in the fall and reevaluate.

I'm just curious.

[OpIv37]

I don't know enough about either guy, but I have a hard time believing that the difference between Watkins and Evans will be worth next year's first round pick.

[better days]

I am going out on a limb & voted for Sammy because I have faith in Whaley.

Whaley put his reputation on the line with that trade so he must think Watkins is a future HOF type player.

So far, so good.

[JoeMama]

I realize that Evans was not available with our 9th overall, but let's assume that it wouldn't have taken next year's 1st-rounder to trade up to get him. My position has been that Evans will end up being both the better rookie and better NFL WR over the years for reasons that I've explained.

As a guide, Cleveland traded our 9th overall and their 5th rounder for Minnesota's 8th overall. So assume that we had traded 1st's along with any other single pick that wasn't next year's 1st rounder.

Put yourself in the GM chair. Would you have traded away our 1st and 4th next year to get Watkins, or would you have simply swapped 1st's along with another later pick in this year's draft and taken Evans?

I'll bookmark the thread and we'll come back in the fall and reevaluate.

I'm just curious.

I disagree that Mike Evans is the better prospect.

He was in a prolific offense with one of the NCAA's all-time greats at quarterback throwing him the ball. Making it a possibility his draft value was inflated. Watkins did it at Clemson with Tajh Boyd at the helm.

I don't know how the perceived "value" of the trade will play out, but I like Watkins over Evans if we're strictly evaluating talent. He has more upside to be a game breaker. His speed, elusiveness, route running, and freakish ability to move after the catch give him the edge.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

It's not a poll option, but I would have made the same trade to take Khalil Mack.

[cookie G]

I disagree that Mike Evans is the better prospect.

He was in a prolific offense with one of the NCAA's all-time greats at quarterback throwing him the ball. Making it a possibility his draft value was inflated. Watkins did it at Clemson with Tajh Boyd at the helm.

I don't know how the perceived "value" of the trade will play out, but I like Watkins over Evans if we're strictly evaluating talent. He has more upside to be a game breaker. His speed, elusiveness, route running, and freakish ability to move after the catch give him the edge.

Very good..I pretty much agree with all of it. I have no problems with Watkins as a player, I just wouldn't have given up next year's 1st, not with the QB situation a question mark.

[don137]

What guarantee is there we would of had a dance partner to trade up to fifth or sixth spot or not of overpaid to do so?
If Watkins ends up being the next AJ Green or Julio Jones for the next 10 years I will be happy with the trade.

[Ed]

We gave up a 1st and 4th to move up to #4, but only have to give up a 3rd or 4th to move up to #5 or #6? That looks like a bad assumption.

[better days]

I just saw an interview with former Bucs QB Chris Sims.

He said he thinks Sammy is the best WR to be drafted since Calvin Johnson & thinks that Sammy will have the best career of all the receivers drafted this year.

[John Doe]

Wasn't Evans shut down by our 4th round draft pick?

[stuckincincy]

I just saw an interview with former Bucs QB Chris Sims.

He said he thinks Sammy is the best WR to be drafted since Calvin Johnson & thinks that Sammy will have the best career of all the receivers drafted this year.

SB here we come...

[better days]

SB here we come...

From your lips to Gods ears.

[kishoph]

I'll admit at first I liked Evans because of his size, but a couple months before the draft Watkins was getting a lot of good things said about him and when you look at their scouting draft reports, it seems like a no-brainer. Of course either of them could go either way, but I think that Watkins has a lot more upside were he can be a threat anywhere on the field and Evans is going to be a red zone threat at best. JMO

As far who will have the better rookie season, Watkins could end up as the legitimate #1 for the Bills in his 1st year, Evans is not going to be moving Vincent Jackson out of his spot or taking away too many of his targets. My prediction, Watkins >65 rec. / Evans 45< rec.

[OpIv37]

What guarantee is there we would of had a dance partner to trade up to fifth or sixth spot or not of overpaid to do so?
If Watkins ends up being the next AJ Green or Julio Jones for the next 10 years I will be happy with the trade.

This is a bit short-sighted.

What if we struggle on the OL and Cleveland uses the first they got from us to draft a LT who starts for the next 10 years and makes 5 Pro Bowls? Worst case scenario: what if EJ completely tanks and that pick is in the top 5 where we could get a top QB? Watkins may turn out to be the best WR ever but it won't matter if we don't have a QB that can get him the ball.

And yes, I'm aware that the opposite could happen: the Bills could do surprisingly well and leave Cleveland using the pick in the mid-20's, or Cleveland could draft a bust with it even if it ends up being first overall.

But either way, any future analysis about how successful this trade was will have to take into consideration the future state of the team and what we could have gotten if we kept that pick in addition to Watkins' success or failure.

[BuffaloRedleg]

This is ridiculous posturing so you can say "I told you so".

You are banking on the fact that EJ is going to stink it up and make Watkins look bad. No matter how well he performs, you are going to say that Watkins was a bad pick. We all know people like you. This is what you do on the internet. You can't possibly lose, because unless he takes us to the playoffs (he can't, the position isn't that important) he won't be worth what we gave up for him. Even if he makes the pro-bowl (he won't because EJ likely won't get him the ball) you can still argue it wasn't worth it. It's an argument you mostly can't lose because you can always paint it in your favor.

It is so transparent it is laughable.

Since you are going to bump this thread eventually I'll make my point that no matter what Watkins does you are going to argue that he underperformed. I would bet someone 1000 dollars of real money if it were done in secret without you knowing. That's how obvious you are.

EJ is going to fail to get him the ball enough, he's going to post slightly above average numbers anyways based on talent alone, and you are going to repost this and say HA I TOLD YOU ALL SO. Mark my words, that is exactly what is going to happen.

[Mr. Pink]

This is ridiculous posturing so you can say "I told you so".

You are banking on the fact that EJ is going to stink it up and make Watkins look bad. No matter how well he performs, you are going to say that Watkins was a bad pick. We all know people like you. This is what you do on the internet. You can't possibly lose, because unless he takes us to the playoffs (he can't, the position isn't that important) he won't be worth what we gave up for him. Even if he makes the pro-bowl (he won't because EJ likely won't get him the ball) you can still argue it wasn't worth it. It's an argument you mostly can't lose because you can always paint it in your favor.

It is so transparent it is laughable.

Since you are going to bump this thread eventually I'll make my point that no matter what Watkins does you are going to argue that he underperformed. I would bet someone 1000 dollars of real money if it were done in secret without you knowing. That's how obvious you are.

EJ is going to fail to get him the ball enough, he's going to post slightly above average numbers anyways based on talent alone, and you are going to repost this and say HA I TOLD YOU ALL SO. Mark my words, that is exactly what is going to happen.

I won't disagree on the EJ stinking it up part, he showed nothing to expect otherwise but even still Watkins will put up numbers. Stevie put up 52 catches in 12 games. There is no reason to not think Sammy can't go 70-1100-7. Someone needs to pick up the production lost by Stevie's departure and that someone will be Sammy.

Now if 70-1100-7 isn't good enough for someone, they're not very knowledgeable about the game simply based on what other receivers have done with poor QBs throwing them the ball. Especially guys who are the number 1 option in the passing game. I can list guys who have put up those types of numbers with bums throwing them ball but I don't feel that's needed when the Bills themselves have shown it can be done. Lee Evans - JP Losman, Stevie Johnson - Ryan Fitzpatrick.

There's no reason not to think EJ can't throw for about 200 yards a game and Watkins to have about a third of those yards.

[BuffaloRedleg]

I won't disagree on the EJ stinking it up part, he showed nothing to expect otherwise but even still Watkins will put up numbers. Stevie put up 52 catches in 12 games. There is no reason to not think Sammy can't go 70-1100-7. Someone needs to pick up the production lost by Stevie's departure and that someone will be Sammy.

Now if 70-1100-7 isn't good enough for someone, they're not very knowledgeable about the game simply based on what other receivers have done with poor QBs throwing them the ball. Especially guys who are the number 1 option in the passing game. I can list guys who have put up those types of numbers with bums throwing them ball but I don't feel that's needed when the Bills themselves have shown it can be done. Lee Evans - JP Losman, Stevie Johnson - Ryan Fitzpatrick.

There's no reason not to think EJ can't throw for about 200 yards a game and Watkins to have about a third of those yards.

You may be right. I think Watkins is good enough that he'll put up some pretty damn good numbers in a few years despite poor QB play. My point really is more about Fletch doing his shtick where he is posturing himself at an angle to be right about something that he will almost inevitably be right about from that angle. There is a very small chance that Watkins will be worth what we gave up for him due to both the fact that WRs are not going to stampede you into the playoffs and that the Bills will likely never have a great QB to throw him the ball.

Come this fall when he bumps this to say how smart he is I want to make sure that it's clear he isn't fooling everyone. He is going to argue exactly what you are saying- that 70-1100-7 isn't good enough.

If he doesn't make those numbers he'll argue that Watkins isn't good enough, and if he does make those numbers he'll argue that that production isn't good enough for what we gave up for him. There is literally no way that he can be wrong from his narrow point of view. It's a fairly simple strategy, but like I said most of us are smart enough to see what he is doing.

[ServoBillieves]

We drafted Watkins. Evans is in TB. Move along.

[OpIv37]

We drafted Watkins. Evans is in TB. Move along.

Disagree. If the Watkins decision is a bad one, it will hamstring this team for several years, just like picking Whitner, Maybin, and to a lesser extent trading up for McCargo did.

Decisions like this are what will make or break a team, and if it turns out to be the wrong one, the people responsible for it need to be held accountable. There has been WAY too little accountability at the top of this organization.

[better days]

Disagree. If the Watkins decision is a bad one, it will hamstring this team for several years, just like picking Whitner, Maybin, and to a lesser extent trading up for McCargo did.

Decisions like this are what will make or break a team, and if it turns out to be the wrong one, the people responsible for it need to be held accountable. There has been WAY too little accountability at the top of this organization.

Well, I agree. I already said Whaley has his reputation on the line with that trade for Watkins.

If Sammy is a bust, Whaley should be fired. And that is the reason I voted for Sammy in the poll.

Whaley is a smart guy & I think he knows the consequences if Sammy is a bust but he made the trade anyway.

[Woodman]

I'd jump over 5 Mike Evans's to draft Sammy Watkins and so would my team.

I'm sure both of us will be proven correct by a wide margin.

Was this a serious question ... just really have to ask?

[Fletch]

I don't know enough about either guy, but I have a hard time believing that the difference between Watkins and Evans will be worth next year's first round pick.

I should have included these, too many people are going to vote and comment without looking at the differences.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/sammy-watkins?id=2543457

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/mike-evans?id=2543468

Watkins:
<article>Strengths Exceptional football playing speed -- can flat out fly and take the top off a defense. Has world-class track speed. Extends outside his frame and plucks the ball. Outstanding body control and agility. Tracks the ball well over his shoulder and is a natural hands-catcher who can make an average quarterback look good. Consistently turns 2-yard gains into 15-yard chunks -- possesses big-time playmaking ability and is very effective creating in the open field on bubble screens and quick-hitting short/lateral tosses. Superb run-after-the-catch ability. Good burst out of his cuts to separate. Has game-breaking return ability and is a threat to score every time he touches the ball. Has a strong support structure (mother moved to Clemson following Wakins' 2012 drug arrest and he has steered clear of any trouble). Will be a 21-year-old rookie. </article><article>Weaknesses Production results heavily from a gimmicky offense. Routes could use some more polish. Does not consistently work the middle of the field. Could improve field awareness. Is still immature and could require some time to acclimate to an NFL playbook. Could stand to improve ball security and do a better job fielding punts. </article><article>Draft Projection Round 1 (top 10) </article><article>Bottom Line A legitimate No. 1-caliber receiver who stepped onto the field as a true freshman and made an immediate, game-changing impact. Was slowed by injuries as a sophomore, but responded with a strong junior season and capped his career as one of the most impactful receivers in school history. Has rare speed, soft hands and the big-play ability to challenge NFL defensive backs as a rookie. </article>

Evans:

Strengths

<article> Outstanding size and length. Functionally strong to power through the jam. Boxes out defenders and is a big red-zone target. Hardwood background is evident -- outstanding leaper with "above-the-rim" skills to go over top of smaller DBs and highpoint throws. Creates late, subtle separation. Tracks and adjusts. Makes contested grabs -- attacks throws and outmuscles defenders in a crowd. Nearly unstoppable executing back-shoulder catches. Strong, reliable hands. Very strong after the catch -- slams into tacklers, is a load to bring down and leans for extra yardage. Productive playmaker -- averaged 20 yards per catch in 2013 and showed up in big games (18-566-5 vs. Alabama and Auburn). Good blocker. Physically dominant and tough. Will be a 21-year-old rookie. </article><article>Weaknesses Monotone mover with pedestrian speed. Cannot separate vertically or pull away from the pack. Unsudden acceleration. Stiff hips. Will have to make a living in traffic at the next level. Will struggle to separate vs. quick-twitch NFL cornerbacks. Did not run a full route tree and could require patience learning the nuances of refined route running. Backyard element to his college success -- must become savvier instead of depending on superior size and improvisational production. Can be hotheaded and lose control of his emotions. Basketball was first love. </article><article>Draft Projection Round 1 (top 15) </article><article>Bottom Line A prep hoopster with shooting-guard size, Evans combined with Johnny Manziel to form one of the most dominant quarterback-receiver connections in the nation the last two seasons. He's a big, physical, strong-handed, West Coast possession receiver with playmaking ability who projects as a No. 2 in the pros, where he will make his money as a chain mover and red-zone target. </article>

[Fletch]

I'd jump over 5 Mike Evans's to draft Sammy Watkins and so would my team.

I'm sure both of us will be proven correct by a wide margin.

Was this a serious question ... just really have to ask?

Doesn't sound like a very serious comment, neither player has even taken a snap. In your book we're all supposed to assume that he'll match the same hype that Reggie Bush had, but failed to live up to in a big way. I don't see much difference.

I'm not saying Watkins won't be good, I expect that he'll be just fine, but who knows if he'll ever become something that was worth not one, but two 1st-rounders and a 4th-rounder too.

Looking at the WRs taken at the top of the 1st round in drafts, few have put up the kind of numbers that would justify such a pick. Keyshawn Johnson comes to mind. They said even better things about him.

Remember Desmond Howard? He was maybe faster than Watkins and he was supposed to tear the NFL a new one. The scenario on him was almost identical. The Skins traded two 1st's to trade up to the 4th spot to grab Howard. The legendary Joe Gibbs was the coach at the time, not some schmucks like we have at both GM and head coach.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1992-04-27/sports/1992118003_1_redskins-terrell-buckley-desmond-howard

So yes, the question was serious. Your response was same as most typical juvenile responses here.

[Fletch]

I disagree that Mike Evans is the better prospect.

He was in a prolific offense with one of the NCAA's all-time greats at quarterback throwing him the ball. Making it a possibility his draft value was inflated. Watkins did it at Clemson with Tajh Boyd at the helm.

I don't know how the perceived "value" of the trade will play out, but I like Watkins over Evans if we're strictly evaluating talent. He has more upside to be a game breaker. His speed, elusiveness, route running, and freakish ability to move after the catch give him the edge.

I didn't say that Evans was a better prospect, you falsely read into that if you're suggesting that I did.

I'm saying that I'd rather have him and another 1st next year instead of Watkins.

I also think that he'll post better numbers than Sammy will this year, partially because he'll be in an offense whereby he and Jackson will complement each other. I'm not sure who's going to compliment Sammy besides Woods, who's not proven he's the same caliber player as Jackson to date. I don't view Williams as a compliment, and Goodwin, like Underwood in Tampa, won't do it either. He's more of a role-player.

Also, Evans has the prototypical build, 6'5"/230, and the level of competition that he faced was notably better. The only real pass defense that Watkins ever faced was FSU and he played poorly against them as a Sr. and horribly against them as a Jr. So looking at it from a perspective of playing pass D's that are good, Watkins has done very little, which worries me.

[Fletch]

It's not a poll option, but I would have made the same trade to take Khalil Mack.

Agreed!!

[Fletch]

I'll admit at first I liked Evans because of his size, but a couple months before the draft Watkins was getting a lot of good things said about him and when you look at their scouting draft reports, it seems like a no-brainer. Of course either of them could go either way, but I think that Watkins has a lot more upside were he can be a threat anywhere on the field and Evans is going to be a red zone threat at best. JMO

As far who will have the better rookie season, Watkins could end up as the legitimate #1 for the Bills in his 1st year, Evans is not going to be moving Vincent Jackson out of his spot or taking away too many of his targets. My prediction, Watkins >65 rec. / Evans 45< rec.

You sure about that?

Evans had a 7 catch 279 yard performance against Alabama's 10th ranked pass D and clearly showed that Evans will not only be a threat in the red zone.

Sammy's three performances last year against top-20 passing defenses were far less impressive, his 8 catches for 68 yards against 5th ranked FSU and his 7 catch 93-yard performance against South Carolina and their 19th ranked passing D were not indicative that he's a better receiver. His 6 for 113 yard game against Wake Forest, besides being against Wake Forest, pretty much revolved around one 64-yard catch. Wake Forest as a team was terrible.

Evans put up more against Alabama in a huge game, one of the biggest on the season in college football overall, than Evans did against all three of those teams.

Evans played in the toughest conference in football, Sammy played most teams with weak defenses and even weaker passing defenses. For example, last season he played teams with the following ranked passing defenses:

5th, 13th, 19th, 25th, 44th, 70th, 72nd, 77th, 97th, 112th, 120th

I'm really concerned about two things, Sammy's having buttered his bread on bubble screens in a very gimmicky offense and on the lack of competition he faced in a very weak ACC while he was there.

Also, let me ask you kisoph, take a look at Tampa's roster, consider that Glennon put the ball up over 400 times as a rookie and only played in 13 games, and that Mike Williams, their next best receiver after Jackson and Underwood, and not that he's good, is gone now.

Who's going to be catching the other passes primarily?

I see Evans getting at least as many targets on a team that's likely to throw the ball more than we are.

[Fletch]

This is ridiculous posturing so you can say "I told you so".

You are banking on the fact that EJ is going to stink it up and make Watkins look bad. No matter how well he performs, you are going to say that Watkins was a bad pick. We all know people like you. This is what you do on the internet. You can't possibly lose, because unless he takes us to the playoffs (he can't, the position isn't that important) he won't be worth what we gave up for him. Even if he makes the pro-bowl (he won't because EJ likely won't get him the ball) you can still argue it wasn't worth it. It's an argument you mostly can't lose because you can always paint it in your favor.

It is so transparent it is laughable.

Since you are going to bump this thread eventually I'll make my point that no matter what Watkins does you are going to argue that he underperformed. I would bet someone 1000 dollars of real money if it were done in secret without you knowing. That's how obvious you are.

EJ is going to fail to get him the ball enough, he's going to post slightly above average numbers anyways based on talent alone, and you are going to repost this and say HA I TOLD YOU ALL SO. Mark my words, that is exactly what is going to happen.

Well yeah, the fact that Manuel is throwing to Sammy is part of it, but only part, so you're wrong.

Even so, this wasn't about who's going to do more this season, it was a simple poll asking whether you would have made the trade or taken Evans and kept our 1st rounder next year.

Talk about posturing here. What's it like being paranoid constantly in casual conversations?

[Fletch]

I won't disagree on the EJ stinking it up part, he showed nothing to expect otherwise but even still Watkins will put up numbers. Stevie put up 52 catches in 12 games. There is no reason to not think Sammy can't go 70-1100-7. Someone needs to pick up the production lost by Stevie's departure and that someone will be Sammy.

Now if 70-1100-7 isn't good enough for someone, they're not very knowledgeable about the game simply based on what other receivers have done with poor QBs throwing them the ball. Especially guys who are the number 1 option in the passing game. I can list guys who have put up those types of numbers with bums throwing them ball but I don't feel that's needed when the Bills themselves have shown it can be done. Lee Evans - JP Losman, Stevie Johnson - Ryan Fitzpatrick.

There's no reason not to think EJ can't throw for about 200 yards a game and Watkins to have about a third of those yards.

Stevie had 1,000 yards in each of the last three seasons, he didn't even come close last season.

Suppose that happens though, just curious, how would you divvy up the other 2,200 yards amongst our RBs, WRs, and TEs?

Only 12 WRs in the history of the NFL have posted 1,000 or more yards as a rookie during the 16 game era. Only 5 of those have been since 1998. Only 5 have hit 1,100.

It will be remarkable if he can do that with Manuel throwing.

Just curious though, how would you then divvy up the other 2,200 yards in terms of expectations among the other receiving players on the team?

[Fletch]

Well, I agree. I already said Whaley has his reputation on the line with that trade for Watkins.

If Sammy is a bust, Whaley should be fired. And that is the reason I voted for Sammy in the poll.

Whaley is a smart guy & I think he knows the consequences if Sammy is a bust but he made the trade anyway.

If Manuel is a bust Whaley should be fired. Watkins wasn't a reach, he just cost us a future draft pick. Manuel, by everyone's estimation except for Bills forum people and the Bills FO was a huge reach. He was Whaley's pick and Whaley is the one that had to have him.

They had to make the move to get Watkins, or so they think, in order to make Manuel seem like a halfway decent pick. This year's draft was entirely precipitated by last year's idiocy in the 1st round.

One giant risk leads to another. That's what we get here as fans.

[JoeMama]

I didn't say that Evans was a better prospect, you falsely read into that if you're suggesting that I did.

Make up your mind.


My position has been that Evans will end up being both the better rookie and better NFL WR over the years for reasons that I've explained.

[BuffaloRedleg]

Lol you have been whining about watkins for months now. We all know you have an agenda here. I'm just calling you on it and the completely predictable arguments you will make when you bump this come fall.

[Jry44]

This is beyond dumb...

Neither player has taken as much as an nfl preseason snap yet, let alone a snap that counts. There is nothing to compare the two on!

[BertSquirtgum]

Evans and a first rounder next year.

[kishoph]

You sure about that?

Evans had a 7 catch 279 yard performance against Alabama's 10th ranked pass D and clearly showed that Evans will not only be a threat in the red zone.

Sammy's three performances last year against top-20 passing defenses were far less impressive, his 8 catches for 68 yards against 5th ranked FSU and his 7 catch 93-yard performance against South Carolina and their 19th ranked passing D were not indicative that he's a better receiver. His 6 for 113 yard game against Wake Forest, besides being against Wake Forest, pretty much revolved around one 64-yard catch. Wake Forest as a team was terrible.

Evans put up more against Alabama in a huge game, one of the biggest on the season in college football overall, than Evans did against all three of those teams.

Evans played in the toughest conference in football, Sammy played most teams with weak defenses and even weaker passing defenses. For example, last season he played teams with the following ranked passing defenses:

5th, 13th, 19th, 25th, 44th, 70th, 72nd, 77th, 97th, 112th, 120th

I'm really concerned about two things, Sammy's having buttered his bread on bubble screens in a very gimmicky offense and on the lack of competition he faced in a very weak ACC while he was there.

Also, let me ask you kisoph, take a look at Tampa's roster, consider that Glennon put the ball up over 400 times as a rookie and only played in 13 games, and that Mike Williams, their next best receiver after Jackson and Underwood, and not that he's good, is gone now.

Who's going to be catching the other passes primarily?

I see Evans getting at least as many targets on a team that's likely to throw the ball more than we are.

First I'll start with saying, comparing their college stats is worthless because one had a QB who some thought should be the #1 overall pick and the other had a QB who the Jets picked up in the late rounds to be Brad Smith 2.0.

To answer the question you directed at me, the majority (near 240) of the 400+ passes Glennon threw went to Vincent Jackson and Tim Wright (a TE), between WR's Williams and Underwood they had 100 targets. Now you'll also have a healthy Doug Martin back (49 rec. in 2012), so with these 3 accomplished receivers (1 WR, 1TE, 1RB) do you think they're gonna find another 100+ targets for Evans. Where as the Bills don't have someone that was a go to receiver on their roster, leaving room for Watkins to be that guy. Bottom line IMO is you have the Bills #1 WR vs Tampa's #2 (maybe #3 if you count the TE) WR. A FYI just for kicks, the Bills threw the ball more than Tampa last year With Manuel as a rookie putting it up over 300 times in just barely over 9 games.

[Woodman]

So yes, the question was serious. Your response was same as most typical juvenile responses here.

Your question and comments are laughable.

You have a real problem with realities ....... so please attempt to get past this ignorant style that you seem unwilling to relinquish.

[stuckincincy]

First I'll start with saying, comparing their college stats is worthless because one had a QB who some thought should be the #1 overall pick and the other had a QB who the Jets picked up in the late rounds to be Brad Smith 2.0.

To answer the question you directed at me, the majority (near 240) of the 400+ passes Glennon threw went to Vincent Jackson and Tim Wright (a TE), between WR's Williams and Underwood they had 100 targets. Now you'll also have a healthy Doug Martin back (49 rec. in 2012), so with these 3 accomplished receivers (1 WR, 1TE, 1RB) do you think they're gonna find another 100+ targets for Evans. Where as the Bills don't have someone that was a go to receiver on their roster, leaving room for Watkins to be that guy. Bottom line IMO is you have the Bills #1 WR vs Tampa's #2 (maybe #3 if you count the TE) WR. A FYI just for kicks, the Bills threw the ball more than Tampa last year With Manuel as a rookie putting it up over 300 times in just barely over 9 games.


Manuel, 306/9 = 33 attempts per game played...Glennon 416 attempts/13 games = 32 per game played. Both were rookies. BUF has recently been more active in drafting wrs in the top 3 rounds than TB.
I like Watkins, I wouldn't have made the trade. I think Woods was the steal of the 2013 draft.

[Ginger Vitis]

The only real pass defense that Watkins ever faced was FSU and he played poorly against them as a Sr.

Their wasn't a Sr. season for Sammy at Clemson.. He left for the NFL after his Junior season

[YardRat]

I don't like drafting WR's real early to begin with, and trading picks to move up to get one is even worse. That being said, some people really need to quit *****ing about 'same old, same old' out of one side of their mouth, and then when the front office does something different ***** about that out of the other.

Being critical is one thing...perceiving oneself as a so-called 'realist' is another...pissing and moaning about everything constantly just to ***** is asinine.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I think Woods was the steal of the 2013 draft.

That's really, really pushing it. Woods isn't even the best wide receiver steal of that draft, nor is he even the best steal for the Buffalo Bills from that draft.

[Fletch]

Make up your mind.

OK, since you struggle with this I guess I should have been more clear. Nice of you to include the rest of my post in the quote here, which is part of the problem, taking it out of context.

For the Bills, I believe Evans would have been the better prospect. Better Red Zone target too, much better.

I see Evans being much more plug and play thay Watkins here in Buffalo. If Watkins were on a team with a better, not only QB, but better offense, I see him having a better, although not necessarily superlative season this year. I see Evans chances for that being better early in the career of both. Obviously any WR would be better off on a team like Denver or NE with Peyton or Brady, but IMO Watkins even more so.

Manuel is all over the map, and while it's fun to think that as with Spiller when he was drafted, that Sammy's going to be out there 30 yards downfield all alone on every play because he's magical, that's obviously not going to be the case. He'll be in traffic often and IMO the better of the two WRs in traffic is Evans. Since Manuel's accuracy is low-end in the NFL, I think that he can use all the help he can get on OTM passes from his WRs. It's already been reported that Manuel's missed Watkins being open a bunch of times. IMO Evans would have been the better prospect here for sure, and while both WRs have their skills, like I've said before, speed is the one that's least transferable to the NFL and diminishes the most rapidly.

But what I said was that Evans and a 1st is better than Watkins for two 1sts and a 4th.

I realize that there's somewhat of a fine line here because of the circumstances of each QB, but I expect Evans' career to take off sooner. I don't think that Watkins will be a bust per se, but I don't think he's going to be the special WR that justifies two 1st-rounders and a 4th like some people here think. I think that's silly to think that.

Part of what I object to is people saying that Watkins, at 6'1"/210 or so, Moulds' size, is of the prototype or mold that Julio Jones, AJ Green, and Calvin Johnson are since Watkins is several inches shorter and hardly of that mold when Evans is. I'm expecting a little bit more than what Moulds did as a career, which wouldn't justify this selection.

So yes, I do think that Evans would have been the better prospect for this team. Much better. IMO the QB situation here is going to make Watkins underachieve. I don't think that this would have been the same case with Evans.

Here's from Evans' description above:

Boxes out defenders and is a big red-zone target. Hardwood background is evident -- outstanding leaper with "above-the-rim" skills to go over top of smaller DBs and highpoint throws. Creates late, subtle separation. Tracks and adjusts. Makes contested grabs -- attacks throws and outmuscles defenders in a crowd. Nearly unstoppable executing back-shoulder catches.

Watkins doesn't have this, it would have helped whichever QB is playing for us. Watkins' game is going to rely far more on having the ball thrown well on timing patterns, in stride whether lont or short, and just good accurate throws otherwise. Now who here sees that happening? We haven't seen that kind of QB play here in years. I think that Watkins would have done far better in Cleveland with Manziel. Fans here get far too emotional over things that don't fit out system well.

[Fletch]

Their wasn't a Sr. season for Sammy at Clemson.. He left for the NFL after his Junior season

Correct, my bad, obviously. You know what I meant, clearly I meant his last season there. Everything is based on that. Evans was a Jr. too fwiw.

Come on now, really?

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I don't like drafting WR's real early to begin with, and trading picks to move up to get one is even worse. That being said, some people really need to quit *****ing about 'same old, same old' out of one side of their mouth, and then when the front office does something different ***** about that out of the other.

Being critical is one thing...perceiving oneself as a so-called 'realist' is another...pissing and moaning about everything constantly just to ***** is asinine.

I agree. I post a simple questiion and the *****ers come out in droves.

Good call!

Oh the irony.

[Ginger Vitis]

So Fletch assumes because Evans is 3 and a half inches taller than Watkins Evans would do a better job catching Manuels errant throws.. Here is a quote from Mikey 82 regarding Watkins " and is bailing out EJ Manuel several times each day on poorly thrown balls that he still manages to catch"

Looks like Watkins was the best WR in the past draft class for saving Manuels ass

[YardRat]

Actually, if comparing the skill sets of the two wide receivers, Watkins has a better chance of putting up bigger numbers and contributing more out of the gate than Evans. Watkins has the advantage early just based on pure athleticism and perceived use by the offensive scheme, and Evans' learning curve is going to be larger and longer. How that translates over an entire career for both is dependent on a lot of factors, and remains to be seen. That being said, I would bet that Watkins will also be more susceptible to injury.

[better days]

Actually, if comparing the skill sets of the two wide receivers, Watkins has a better chance of putting up bigger numbers and contributing more out of the gate than Evans. Watkins has the advantage early just based on pure athleticism and perceived use by the offensive scheme, and Evans' learning curve is going to be larger and longer. How that translates over an entire career for both is dependent on a lot of factors, and remains to be seen. That being said, I would bet that Watkins will also be more susceptible to injury.

Why do you think Watkins will be more susceptable to injury than Evans?

Because of his size or his style of play?

If it is his size, Gronk is a BIG guy who gets injured all the time.

[stuckincincy]

Why do you think Watkins will be more susceptable to injury than Evans?

Because of his size or his style of play?

If it is his size, Gronk is a BIG guy who gets injured all the time.

I wouldn't think because of size - he's 6'1", 211 lb. My guess would be that he's going to be expected to roam the middle, and also catch some short stuff where a defender closes quickly.

[better days]

I wouldn't think because of size - he's 6'1", 211 lb. My guess would be that he's going to be expected to roam the middle, and also catch some short stuff where a defender closes quickly.

And he also runs like a RB when he gets the ball in his hands.

I think he will be exciting to watch.

But you never know about guys ability to stay healthy.

Look at Favre, he ran around a lot for a long period of time and never was seriously injured.

Then you have Rob Johnson.

[stuckincincy]

And he also runs like a RB when he gets the ball in his hands.
I think he will be exciting to watch.
But you never know about guys ability to stay healthy.
Look at Favre, he ran around a lot for a long period of time and never was seriously injured.
Then you have Rob Johnson.

Wasn't that said about Josh Reed?

[better days]

Wasn't that said about Josh Reed?

Yeah it was. Good memory.

The difference between Watkins and Reed is comparable to the difference between CJ Spiller & Tashard Choice.

[stuckincincy]

Yeah it was. Good memory.

The difference between Watkins and Reed is comparable to the difference between CJ Spiller & Tashard Choice.

I always thought they could have done a better job with Reed.

[YardRat]

Why do you think Watkins will be more susceptable to injury than Evans?

Because of his size or his style of play?

If it is his size, Gronk is a BIG guy who gets injured all the time.

Watkins is probably going to work the higher traffic areas, where Evans will be outside. More hits, etc.

Maybe 'susceptible' wasn't the best term to use...perhaps 'exposed' would have been better.

[better days]

I always thought they could have done a better job with Reed.

Well, he was still young enough when the Bills let him go.

Nobody else got anything out of him either.

[Mouldsie]

I would have taken Allen Robinson later in the draft & would have kept Stevie and our first next year.

[Mouldsie]

Manuel, 306/9 = 33 attempts per game played...Glennon 416 attempts/13 games = 32 per game played. Both were rookies. BUF has recently been more active in drafting wrs in the top 3 rounds than TB.
I like Watkins, I wouldn't have made the trade. I think Woods was the steal of the 2013 draft.
We took Robert Woods over Keenan Allen. Let that sink in.

[Mr. Pink]

Stevie had 1,000 yards in each of the last three seasons, he didn't even come close last season.


Just curious though, how would you then divvy up the other 2,200 yards in terms of expectations among the other receiving players on the team?

Stevie didn't get there because he was hurt and missed a quarter of the season, still had 52 catches - which would have put him just below 70 catches playing every game. As I said, someone in the offense has to replace those 70 catches and naturally it's gonna be the guy who's replacing him. Watkins also won't average only 11.5 Y/R

The running backs combined will have around 600 receiving yards. Chandler around 400. Woods around 500. Williams around 500. Everyone else around 200.

[Fletch]

So Fletch assumes because Evans is 3 and a half inches taller than Watkins Evans would do a better job catching Manuels errant throws.. Here is a quote from Mikey 82 regarding Watkins " and is bailing out EJ Manuel several times each day on poorly thrown balls that he still manages to catch"

Looks like Watkins was the best WR in the past draft class for saving Manuels ass

This is comical. Apparently you don't understand the overall nature of training camps.

I'm not even going to waste my time explaining what everyone knows.

[Fletch]

Actually, if comparing the skill sets of the two wide receivers, Watkins has a better chance of putting up bigger numbers and contributing more out of the gate than Evans. Watkins has the advantage early just based on pure athleticism and perceived use by the offensive scheme, and Evans' learning curve is going to be larger and longer. How that translates over an entire career for both is dependent on a lot of factors, and remains to be seen. That being said, I would bet that Watkins will also be more susceptible to injury.

What's the reasoning behind this? I mean I make statements like this and present evidence. You just make these statements but give no indications as to why you think these things.

Part of what you say is ridiculous. We ranked 29th in red zone production last season. (TDs that is) That's putrid along with many of our other offensive stats. Evans clearly has a much better history in terms of red zone production, that's a fact. Watkins had 2 red zone TDs all season long last year, one in a blowout loss to FSU. 7 of 12 of his TDs were from his own goal line to the opponents' 40.

So if you're talking about "bigger numbers" for TDs, IMO it's foolish to think that Watkins is going to have the same long TD success here as he did in the NFL, and equally foolish to think that Evans won't be similar in the red zone. So if it's scoring you're talking about it would seem to be the opposite of what you say.

If you mean bigger numbers against better teams, there too, what's Watkins' history of that? It's hardly rich. Evans OTOH lit up Alabama like a Christmas tree. So not sure there's a basis of that from that angle. We haven't even addressed the QBs throwing to each either.

If you ask me, Evans would have a better chance of putting up "bigger numbers" and "contributing more out of the gate" than Evans if he were on a team with a QB that knew how to hit his WRs in stride on a regular basis. We don't have that here though, none of 'em. On a dozen other teams I might agree, but not the way that things are now.

[Fletch]

Yeah it was. Good memory.

The difference between Watkins and Reed is comparable to the difference between CJ Spiller & Tashard Choice.

Sure, except that Reed's college numbers were better than Watkins'.

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I always thought they could have done a better job with Reed.

They could have done a better job with a lot of our players.

But when all you do is hire cheap coaches, you get what you pay for. Instead of breaking the bank for players like Fitzpatrick and Mario, if instead they'd spend a fraction of that and add it to what they pay coaches like Marrone and Gailey, then maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Fletch]

Watkins is probably going to work the higher traffic areas, where Evans will be outside. More hits, etc.

Maybe 'susceptible' wasn't the best term to use...perhaps 'exposed' would have been better.

Did you read anything at all about Evans? Did you look at any of his stats and how or where he performed the best?

In essence what you're saying here is that both WRs are going to be used in completely the opposite manner in which they buttered their bread in college. Do you see a good reason for saying that, or implying it anyway?

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if our team uses Watkins and tries to do what he has not excelled at, but I doubt that Smith in Tampa is that stupid.