Anybody have an idea if Watkins can beat a DB pressing at the LOS, and can he block?

[stuckincincy]

I've never seen him play. Can he be bottled up, and did he in college toss a block to free a rb or a fellow receiver?

I guess what I'm asking is, if he is a so-called "complete" receiver like, say, a Heinz Ward?

[John Doe]

Asking any receiver to block like Ward is setting that particular bar pretty high. He looked fairly decent as a blocker in college from what I have seen, but that was college.

Draftboy probably has more definitive information regarding that aspect of his game.

Most college defenses play well off the receivers - that is probably why they ran so many bubble screens for Watkins at Clemson. The reports from Peter King at Bills training camp have indicated that Watkins has the skill set to beat press coverage:


Wide receiver Sammy Watkins. He’s not physically imposing when you’re next to him, but his advantage, from the looks of two practices, is he plays with equal physicality and quickness. Watching him get off the line of scrimmaging against corners trying to test the kid is a treat.

http://mmqb.si.com/2014/07/21/bills-training-camp-report/


One: At the snap of the ball, the 6-1, 205-pound Watkins charged off the line at starting left corner Leodis McKelvin. He steamrolled McKelvin. Flattened him. As McKelvin fell, he dragged Watkins with him. Had this been a game, McKelvin would have been called for holding. Watkins was in the right, blasting McKelvin in the five-yard bump zone. And McKelvin did all he could, holding on for dear life and taking Watkins down with him.
Two: On the next snap, Watkins charged off the line and McKelvin gave him his space, and Watkins pivoted left, alone across the middle. McKelvin was six yards behind Watkins when E.J. Manuel found him, wide open, running free on a crossing route.
<figure class="narrow right img" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0); display: inline; margin: 0px 0px 25px 45px; overflow: hidden; zoom: 1; padding: 0px; float: right; width: 360px; height: auto; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15.333333015441895px; line-height: 25px; background-color: rgb(229, 229, 229);">http://simmqb.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/sammy-inside.jpg?w=360&h=476<figcaption style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0); color: rgb(153, 153, 153); font-size: 15px; line-height: 22px; font-family: Helvetica, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, sans-serif; margin-right: 0px; padding: 20px 14px 14px; background: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Watkins rose above everyone else in the first two days of Bills practice. (Bill Wippert/AP)</figcaption></figure>Three: Jittering off the line, Watkins got free of the corner (I didn’t see who it was) and Manuel lofted a perfect ball 35 yards down the right sideline into Watkins’ hands.
http://mmqb.si.com/2014/07/22/sammy-watkins-bills-training-camp-mailbag/

[TigerJ]

The reports I've seen have not specifically addressed how Watkins handles a jam at the LOS, but what we do know about him suggests he can handle it very well. First, he's not at all afraid of being physical with a CB, and while he is not a big receiver (more average than either big or small) he's got a sturdy build and seems pretty strong. Second, while he does not have world class speed, his abilty to accelerate is among he best in the league (and that has been tested). He gets to top speed faster than just about anybody, even guys with world class speed, whether from standing still or coming out of a break. Combine that with his other traits (sticky hands and a huge catch radius) and he should be able to give press cornerbacks fits right from the LOS.

[Fletch]

Asking any receiver to block like Ward is setting that particular bar pretty high. He looked fairly decent as a blocker in college from what I have seen, but that was college.

I love comments like this. How much time exactly did you spend watching Clemson games while focusing on whether Watkins was a good blocker?

LOL

I suppose that you saw koujandou or whatever his name is too and watched him play.

Did you watch a lot of Bryce Brown footage, and just happen to catch the few games that he did anything in Philly too.

[Fletch]

I've never seen him play. Can he be bottled up, and did he in college toss a block to free a rb or a fellow receiver?

I guess what I'm asking is, if he is a so-called "complete" receiver like, say, a Heinz Ward?

Honestly, he played so few decent passing D's and of those that he did none had good teams overall except for FSU and he didn't play well against them.

I doubt that he's ever even faced the kind of jams that he'll see in the NFL. 60% of his catches were on bubble screens rendering blocks at the line moot. I doubt that there were even many DBs that had the skills to be able to block him at the line and then still recover to cover him at the collegiate level. That's why I keep emphasizing the level of competition that he faced.

I suspect that he'll be fine, but who knows. The biggest issue is how is KneeJ going to hit him in stride and accurately on a regular basis. Doesn't seem as if Whaley thought that through. If you ask me we'd have been better off drafting a big WR that could make catches in traffic much better, it would have helped Manuel much more. Manuel's going to struggle to make effective use of Watkins. Again, the front office gets paid big money to figure this out but can't.

[Ginger Vitis]

I love comments like this. How much time exactly did you spend watching Clemson games




Oh the irony is delicious no one has more opinions and observations on Watkins than you and you had to be told Watkins was a junior not a senior last year

[Fletch]

Here are some excerpts from CBS Sports draft profile on Watkins.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1850743/sammy-watkins

Sharp footwork off the line of scrimmage to beat press and get vertical with his galloping strides.

Active blocker and gets the job done in this area.

I also don't know why many of the sites compare him to Percy Harvin, he strikes me as being more talented than that. I kind of envision a cross between Santana Moss and Moulds.

[John Doe]

I love comments like this. How much time exactly did you spend watching Clemson games while focusing on whether Watkins was a good blocker?

LOL

I suppose that you saw koujandou or whatever his name is too and watched him play.

Did you watch a lot of Bryce Brown footage, and just happen to catch the few games that he did anything in Philly too.

I don't recall saying that I saw a lot of footage of Watkins' blocking. That is why I defer to posters like Draftboy who have seen just about every college game played. You really are the king of the "strawman" fallacy.

I don't recall mentioning anything about Kouandijo or Brown. Again, the attempt to build a strawman is duly noted.

[Fletch]

Oh the irony is delicious no one has more opinions and observations on Watkins than you and you had to be told Watkins was a junior not a senior last year

LMAO

This is so rich. I'll tell ya what the irony is, it's someone like you completely ignoring the fact that that is irrelevant given that the context of the conversation was a comparison to Mike Evans, who's the same age, actually younger by several months. I called him a Sr. too, but clearly you know what I meant, it's like pointing out a typo.

Where it's rich is listening to someone like you who's sum total of relevant input into any discussion about Watkins or Evans is what you've been spoon-fed by the major media. Go back and look at all the info that I've posted on Watkins, splits involving opponents, game situations, downs, etc., and performances against certain teams and passing Ds.

All you do is blather ***** piss and moan.

Good stuff involving irony.

[Fletch]

I don't recall saying that I saw a lot of footage of Watkins' blocking. That is why I defer to posters like Draftboy who have seen just about every college game played. You really are the king of the "strawman" fallacy.

I don't recall mentioning anything about Kouandijo or Brown. Again, the attempt to build a strawman is duly noted.

How convenient. You said ...


He looked fairly decent as a blocker in college from what I have seen, but that was college.

Tell us, how many games, exactly, did you watch Clemson play football while specifically watching Watkins' blocking skills?

As to Draftboy, perhaps you'd better let him speak for himself. On any given Saturday there are no fewer than several dozen college games going on at the same time typically during the afternoons, you're insisting that he's seen most of 'em. There are over 250 D-I teams and over 100 college games at that level every Saturday.

Right. LOL

Most people can only watch one game at a time, good to know that he has the ability to watch 40 or more games at once.

Doesn't matter though, you made the comment based "on what you've seen," remember.

[jimmifli]

If Watkins doesn't throw a block all season it wouldn't change my opinion on him at all. And it shouldn't impact yours either.

[John Doe]

How convenient. You said ...



Tell us, how many games, exactly, did you watch Clemson play football while specifically watching Watkins' blocking skills?

As to Draftboy, perhaps you'd better let him speak for himself. On any given Saturday there are no fewer than several dozen college games going on at the same time typically during the afternoons, you're insisting that he's seen most of 'em. There are over 250 D-I teams and over 100 college games at that level every Saturday.

Right. LOL

Most people can only watch one game at a time, good to know that he has the ability to watch 40 or more games at once.

Doesn't matter though, you made the comment based "on what you've seen," remember.

After the draft I watched condensed highlights of several Clemson games that included most or all of the plays that Watkins was on the field. Since he was the only player that I was interested in, I focused on him whether he caught the ball or not. Usually, when he did not have the ball he was trying to block, and he did a fairly good job.

I don't see why you have such a big problem with this.

I don't recall speaking for Draftboy. Try posting without the strawman for once. The honesty may do you some good.
I respect his opinion because he does watch a ton of games - not all of them live or at the same time.

[trapezeus]

there have been multiple articles on watkins being physical and most of the youtube clips show him lowering his head when he's crossing through the middle of the field making contact.

There have also been some articles on his ability to get off the line of scrimmage (prior to being selected by the bills). So it seems like that's not a skill he has to learn or has to bulk up to get.

but we'll keep getting fletch's insistence that watkins plays small and can't do anything but catch the WR bubble screen.

my worry about watkins is that almost every catch you hear about is him having to make an incredible catch. it would be better to hear that EJ and him are developing some timing and accuracy and that there are long TD's being scored between the two of them.

i just worry that he's getting injured in preseason.

[Fletch]

If Watkins doesn't throw a block all season it wouldn't change my opinion on him at all. And it shouldn't impact yours either.

I agree. He isn't getting paid to block, he's getting paid to make big plays with the ball in his hands, and if how good we are comes down to that then something's very wrong somewhere.

[Fletch]

After the draft I watched condensed highlights of several Clemson games that included most or all of the plays that Watkins was on the field. Since he was the only player that I was interested in, I focused on him whether he caught the ball or not. Usually, when he did not have the ball he was trying to block, and he did a fairly good job.

You didn't happen to notice which teams it was that most of his big highlights were against, did ya? Might be a good point of note for you in your assessment.

Then go watch Mike Evans light up Alabama, as I said, to the tune of more than what Watkins did in his three games against the best pass Ds, but not good teams like Alabama was overall, combined.

Carry on!

[Fletch]

there have been multiple articles on watkins being physical and most of the youtube clips show him lowering his head when he's crossing through the middle of the field making contact.

There have also been some articles on his ability to get off the line of scrimmage (prior to being selected by the bills). So it seems like that's not a skill he has to learn or has to bulk up to get.

but we'll keep getting fletch's insistence that watkins plays small and can't do anything but catch the WR bubble screen.

my worry about watkins is that almost every catch you hear about is him having to make an incredible catch. it would be better to hear that EJ and him are developing some timing and accuracy and that there are long TD's being scored between the two of them.

i just worry that he's getting injured in preseason.

Agree on the physicality element of that. Once he has the ball it seems as if he's tough by all reports.

As to your other charges, I don't recall saying that he plays small anywhere. What I do recall repeatedly emphasizing, is that unlike Mike Evans, most, if not all of Watkins' big games were against teams that really weren't good defensively. Mike Evans absolutely lit up a fantastic not only pass D, but overall D, in Alabama which had the 3rd ranked scoring D in the nation. That's highly relevant and seemingly transferable given the number of players that 'Bama sends to the NFL every year. Two 1st-rounders this year are both key defenders, at least one of which they're raving about in camp and OTAs already.

OTOH, the ACC was much weaker than the SEC, which is the NCAA's toughest conference. Duke was the ACC's third best team after FSU and Clemson but barely made the top-25. If Duke is the answer to good teams then there was something wrong with the question.

As to Watkins and his bubble screens, here's been my point all along. Many people have said in the media, and here for sure, that Watkins made a living on deep balls with his speed at Clemson. It's fully verifiable that that is not the case. 60% of his catches were of the bubble screen variety, the rest were distributged evenly by pass play types, about 10% each, someone posted the chart here not long ago. Those types of plays are not known for their success at the NFL level. It doesn't take much imagination to figure that most of his success there, without opponent splits in that way being available, that much of that success came against mediocre to poor teams.

I've already cited how he didn't play particularly well against FSU or the other weak teams overall but respectable pass-D's otherwise. That leaves us asking the question "why not?" Or it should anyway. It's quite reasonable to assume that the teams with the better pass Ds were able to control those plays much better. Well, if those teams can do it, then why wouldn't it happen in the NFL where the types of players that were able to stop it in college are much better even? The answer is that there are no reasons.

Another question that should be asked is why didn't Watkins excel then against those same teams with that blazing speed in lieu of the fact that those bubble screens clearly weren't going for those same huge gains that he got against the mediocre and poor teams? It is a valid question. The answer is the same.

We have learned over the years that speed and moves (Spiller as a local example, Reggie Bush as a national one) quite often if rarely translate to the NFL like many people expect them to. This isn't something that's up for negotiation or discussion, it's a fact. So many players come to the NFL with speed, and we've had many of them on our team over the years, and it just doesn't translate in a vacuum.

Granted, Watkins skill set exceeds simple speed, but the point remains, that he has not really proven himself against top talent at the collegiate level. We can blame that on anything including that "he didn't make the schedule," but he did fail to put up huge games and consistently good performances against the few decent and only one good defensive team that he played. ... UNLIKE Evans, who again, lit up 'Bama and has at least proven to one extent or another that he can do that. And the lame excuse that Evans had Manziel while Watkins had Boyd is irrelevant at that level. Boyd was just fine at the collegiate level on a team whose talent exceeded that of just about every one of their opponents except for FSU, whom neither Boyd nor Watkins played well against. OTOH, Manziel and Evans obliterated one of the top-ranked Ds in the country largely because of Evans. Offensively it was the complete opposite of Clemson against FSU. It was more FSU's offense against Clemson's D.

Argue as you may, when 60% of a player's dossier features plays that don't work in the NFL with even the slightest regularity, it raises questions, or should anyway. Not saying that what he did the other 40% of the time, again, usually against siht D's, won't play out in the NFL, but what I am saying is that we shouldn't assume that just because Watkins was able to dust DBs or LBs on some of the worst pass D's in the country, doesn't mean that he'll be able to do it against NFL caliber DBs and LBs.

Watkins five biggest games were against pass D's ranked 44th, 72nd, 120th, 70th, and 77th. It was the same with Spiller, he ran poorly against anything even approaching a solid Run D, but no one considered that. Guess what, it's played out here in the NFL too and Spiller's next to worthless on the most important down in football and only seems to be able to excel when he's got huge holes. Same team, same conference, same system, same head coach in college.

We are not forced to say the same thing about Evans, who on the merits of obliterating Alabama's D alone means more than all five of Watkins' best games last season in discussing the transition to the NFL.

The facts should speak for themselves. The problem is that many people here just don't want to consider the facts. They'd rather bury their heads in the sand and hope for the best. That's fine, but these are discussions. Running around with one's fingers in one's ears screaming "I can't hear you" repeatedly is not an argument. It's a tantrum.

[better days]

Well, Bills CB Stephon Gilmore is a prototypical press corner & one of the most physical corners in the NFL today.

Watkins has been holding his own against Gilmore in practice.

[Fletch]

Well, Bills CB Stephon Gilmore is a prototypical press corner & one of the most physical corners in the NFL today.

Watkins has been holding his own against Gilmore in practice.

Right, in practice. This isn't new to you, right? Does it seem like many players that won't be the same during the preseason are "doing well in practice?" Can you drum up any recent examples of things we've heard in camp about past players doing great that never came close to doing the same during the regular season?

I'm not at all insisting that Watkins won't, but I am saying that don't be disappointed if it doesn't work out like you've been and continue to be told this season. WRs with Watkins assets take more time to develop than larger WRs, which is the existing trend in the NFL. Not to mention let's see how he does against DBs like Revis or Talib when he plays them this season with help from their safeties. Gilmore's good but he's hardly great. There's not one other DB on our team that even merits honorable mention in that regard.

The original topic of this thread was whether he can beat pressing DBs at the line. I think he can. Where I lose faith is in the fact that Watkins is a speed and moves kinda WR, not an OTM or "in traffic" type, like Evans. I'm far from convinced that any of our QBs will be able to throw accurately or crisply enough to make use of Watkins' skillset. I'll also insist right now that if Marrone tries to use Watkins like he was primarily used at Clemson, namely on bubble screens and on near or behind the LOS stuff, that it's not going to be effective in the NFL on anything even approaching the scale that will warrent doing it all season long. And as I've pointed out before, Watkins wasn't exactly a red zone threat. Evans was. We were ranked 29th in red zone TD % last season. I think we would have been better off with a red zone WR like Evans, especially if it would have meant saving our 1st rounder next season.

[better days]

Right, in practice. This isn't new to you, right? Does it seem like many players that won't be the same during the preseason are "doing well in practice?" Can you drum up any recent examples of things we've heard in camp about past players doing great that never came close to doing the same during the regular season?

I'm not at all insisting that Watkins won't, but I am saying that don't be disappointed if it doesn't work out like you've been and continue to be told this season. WRs with Watkins assets take more time to develop than larger WRs, which is the existing trend in the NFL. Not to mention let's see how he does against DBs like Revis or Talib when he plays them this season with help from their safeties. Gilmore's good but he's hardly great. There's not one other DB on our team that even merits honorable mention in that regard.

The original topic of this thread was whether he can beat pressing DBs at the line. I think he can. Where I lose faith is in the fact that Watkins is a speed and moves kinda WR, not an OTM or "in traffic" type, like Evans. I'm far from convinced that any of our QBs will be able to throw accurately or crisply enough to make use of Watkins' skillset. I'll also insist right now that if Marrone tries to use Watkins like he was primarily used at Clemson, namely on bubble screens and on near or behind the LOS stuff, that it's not going to be effective in the NFL on anything even approaching the scale that will warrent doing it all season long. And as I've pointed out before, Watkins wasn't exactly a red zone threat. Evans was. We were ranked 29th in red zone TD % last season. I think we would have been better off with a red zone WR like Evans, especially if it would have meant saving our 1st rounder next season.

Well, I agree about Talib. He is a great CB & very physical. I'm still pissed that the Bucs got rid of him. To N.E. no less. But If Watkins has to face him, it will be in the playoffs. I will take that.

Revis has as much to prove as Watkins does this year. Coming off a torn ACL last year, Revis was mediocre at best last year. 2 INTs for the year & it wasn't because other teams weren't throwing at him.

Trust me, Tampa fans are not shedding tears at the loss of Revis & he will have to prove he is fully healed this year.

And Sammy's biggest asset IMO, is his ability to high point the ball which means he can catch balls from an inaccurate QB much better than other receivers.

I believe that is the reason Whaley wanted him bad enough to give up so much for him.

[trapezeus]

Agree on the physicality element of that. Once he has the ball it seems as if he's tough by all reports.

As to your other charges, I don't recall saying that he plays small anywhere. What I do recall repeatedly emphasizing, is that unlike Mike Evans, most, if not all of Watkins' big games were against teams that really weren't good defensively. Mike Evans absolutely lit up a fantastic not only pass D, but overall D, in Alabama which had the 3rd ranked scoring D in the nation. That's highly relevant and seemingly transferable given the number of players that 'Bama sends to the NFL every year. Two 1st-rounders this year are both key defenders, at least one of which they're raving about in camp and OTAs already.

OTOH, the ACC was much weaker than the SEC, which is the NCAA's toughest conference. Duke was the ACC's third best team after FSU and Clemson but barely made the top-25. If Duke is the answer to good teams then there was something wrong with the question.

As to Watkins and his bubble screens, here's been my point all along. Many people have said in the media, and here for sure, that Watkins made a living on deep balls with his speed at Clemson. It's fully verifiable that that is not the case. 60% of his catches were of the bubble screen variety, the rest were distributged evenly by pass play types, about 10% each, someone posted the chart here not long ago. Those types of plays are not known for their success at the NFL level. It doesn't take much imagination to figure that most of his success there, without opponent splits in that way being available, that much of that success came against mediocre to poor teams.

I've already cited how he didn't play particularly well against FSU or the other weak teams overall but respectable pass-D's otherwise. That leaves us asking the question "why not?" Or it should anyway. It's quite reasonable to assume that the teams with the better pass Ds were able to control those plays much better. Well, if those teams can do it, then why wouldn't it happen in the NFL where the types of players that were able to stop it in college are much better even? The answer is that there are no reasons.

Another question that should be asked is why didn't Watkins excel then against those same teams with that blazing speed in lieu of the fact that those bubble screens clearly weren't going for those same huge gains that he got against the mediocre and poor teams? It is a valid question. The answer is the same.

We have learned over the years that speed and moves (Spiller as a local example, Reggie Bush as a national one) quite often if rarely translate to the NFL like many people expect them to. This isn't something that's up for negotiation or discussion, it's a fact. So many players come to the NFL with speed, and we've had many of them on our team over the years, and it just doesn't translate in a vacuum.

Granted, Watkins skill set exceeds simple speed, but the point remains, that he has not really proven himself against top talent at the collegiate level. We can blame that on anything including that "he didn't make the schedule," but he did fail to put up huge games and consistently good performances against the few decent and only one good defensive team that he played. ... UNLIKE Evans, who again, lit up 'Bama and has at least proven to one extent or another that he can do that. And the lame excuse that Evans had Manziel while Watkins had Boyd is irrelevant at that level. Boyd was just fine at the collegiate level on a team whose talent exceeded that of just about every one of their opponents except for FSU, whom neither Boyd nor Watkins played well against. OTOH, Manziel and Evans obliterated one of the top-ranked Ds in the country largely because of Evans. Offensively it was the complete opposite of Clemson against FSU. It was more FSU's offense against Clemson's D.

Argue as you may, when 60% of a player's dossier features plays that don't work in the NFL with even the slightest regularity, it raises questions, or should anyway. Not saying that what he did the other 40% of the time, again, usually against siht D's, won't play out in the NFL, but what I am saying is that we shouldn't assume that just because Watkins was able to dust DBs or LBs on some of the worst pass D's in the country, doesn't mean that he'll be able to do it against NFL caliber DBs and LBs.

Watkins five biggest games were against pass D's ranked 44th, 72nd, 120th, 70th, and 77th. It was the same with Spiller, he ran poorly against anything even approaching a solid Run D, but no one considered that. Guess what, it's played out here in the NFL too and Spiller's next to worthless on the most important down in football and only seems to be able to excel when he's got huge holes. Same team, same conference, same system, same head coach in college.

We are not forced to say the same thing about Evans, who on the merits of obliterating Alabama's D alone means more than all five of Watkins' best games last season in discussing the transition to the NFL.

The facts should speak for themselves. The problem is that many people here just don't want to consider the facts. They'd rather bury their heads in the sand and hope for the best. That's fine, but these are discussions. Running around with one's fingers in one's ears screaming "I can't hear you" repeatedly is not an argument. It's a tantrum.


you are saying there is correlation between fast RB in college and fast WR? bush and spiller are effective in packages. they aren't featured players. however, a WR with the characteristics we agree on, should be considered able to be a #1. Can that happen this year? probably not. can we see good things from him to be encouraged? probably. Will he be shut down like james hardy and totally ineffective while having a good camp with a qb who's still having accuracy issues? probably not.

you seem to want to make watkins as some issue. i think the issues lie elsewhere on the team. he's unproven, new, and isn't an entitled premadonna and putting in the work. it's enough for me to be excited to see him play some games.

[Thief]

Gez... Is this guy Mike Evan's agent? His brother? Seriously. Ive only watched highlights and read about him, but not one guy who gets paid for his opinion thought Watkins played small, or that Evans was better. Pre-draft it was unanimous, Watkins was the undisputed offensive/scoring gem of the class.

[Woodman]

Watkins will get his job done ..... all the other bs is irrelevant.