Where things stand with the Toronto group bidding on the Buffalo Bills: answers to 5

[Fletch]

Where things stand with the Toronto group bidding on the Buffalo Bills: answers to 5 vital questions, via sources
http://blogs.canoe.ca/krykslants/nfl/where-things-stand-with-the-toronto-group-bidding-on-the-buffalo-bills-answers-to-5-vital-questions-via-sources/

fwiw

What it does do is state that what some people claim to know is in fact still unknown.

Some examples and excerpts:

5. DO THEY [Toronto Group] HAVE ANY HOPE OF WINNING?

If the trust has written instructions, or merely the sentimental wish, to honour Wilson’s legacy and sell the team only to a bidder with local ties and no suspected relocation intentions (notions that many grizzled financial insiders totally roll their eyes at, I’m told), then no.


If the trust doesn’t really care whether the team stays or goes and only wants to maximize the sale price, and if the NFL doesn’t care about said short-term lame-duck hell in Buffalo (because the NFL actually wants the team to relocate to Toronto, the thinking goes by some insiders), and if none of Pegula, Donald Trump or Western New York billionaire Tom Golisano is prepared to go much over $1 billion, and if Bon Jovi really wants to pour virtually all of his liquid net worth (and maybe liquidize other parts) into an illiquid sports team, then yes.


I'm not sure that I agree that it would be lame-duck hell in Buffalo if the assumption is that the team's moving. First of all they're not going to state that up front, it won't be said until several years from now more than likely as the construction of a new stadium in Mississauga or Toronto becomes approved.

I see fans if anything showing up in bigger numbers knowing that the next bunch of seasons would be the last here. I don't think that any significant number would still avidly follow the team there, but imo they underestimate the Bills fanbase. I think tix for that last season, unless we really suck worse than we do now, would be a hot ticket. Even then they might be.

[Skooby]

Rubbish.

[Fletch]

Rubbish.

What's rubbish?

If you ask me, what's rubbish is that the NFL is adamant on keeping the team in Buffalo. There's reasons for keeping them here, but there are also lots of valid reasons to move the team. Absolutely no one that thinks that the team would best serve the interests of the NFL by moving is going to make that known at this time, including NFL people and insiders. This is one of those things where you can't trust anyone involved except for Pegula or Golisano.

What had me very concerned was reading in another piece on the topic a few days ago was that the writer said that a new owner would likely leave the major parts of the FO in place. To me that would be the most devastating blow right there, if the current morons were kept on to continue to ruin this team and drive it into the ground.

[better days]

Where things stand with the Toronto group bidding on the Buffalo Bills: answers to 5 vital questions, via sources


http://blogs.canoe.ca/krykslants/nfl/where-things-stand-with-the-toronto-group-bidding-on-the-buffalo-bills-answers-to-5-vital-questions-via-sources/

fwiw

What it does do is state that what some people claim to know is in fact still unknown.

Some examples and excerpts:

5. DO THEY [Toronto Group] HAVE ANY HOPE OF WINNING?

If the trust has written instructions, or merely the sentimental wish, to honour Wilson’s legacy and sell the team only to a bidder with local ties and no suspected relocation intentions (notions that many grizzled financial insiders totally roll their eyes at, I’m told), then no.


If the trust doesn’t really care whether the team stays or goes and only wants to maximize the sale price, and if the NFL doesn’t care about said short-term lame-duck hell in Buffalo (because the NFL actually wants the team to relocate to Toronto, the thinking goes by some insiders), and if none of Pegula, Donald Trump or Western New York billionaire Tom Golisano is prepared to go much over $1 billion, and if Bon Jovi really wants to pour virtually all of his liquid net worth (and maybe liquidize other parts) into an illiquid sports team, then yes.


I'm not sure that I agree that it would be lame-duck hell in Buffalo if the assumption is that the team's moving. First of all they're not going to state that up front, it won't be said until several years from now more than likely as the construction of a new stadium in Mississauga or Toronto becomes approved.

I see fans if anything showing up in bigger numbers knowing that the next bunch of seasons would be the last here. I don't think that any significant number would still avidly follow the team there, but imo they underestimate the Bills fanbase. I think tix for that last season, unless we really suck worse than we do now, would be a hot ticket. Even then they might be.

From the same article

1. ARE THEY LYING?
Almost nobody in Western New York-or Toronto for that matter-believes that the Toronto group is in earnest in its intention to keep the club in Buffalo. Who can blame them?

3. Do they have the money?

but at some point soon thereafter, especially if the sale price approaches $1.5 billion they'll be out.

1. This is why if the Toronto group does win & buys the Bills they will play to a ghost of a crowd at the Stadium in Buffalo.

3. Pegula or Golisono will have no problem outbidding the douches from Toronto!

[YardRat]

Lol...'grizzled' financial insiders.

The threat of moving will always be a factor, regardless of who owns the team.

[Novacane]

I see fans if anything showing up in bigger numbers knowing that the next bunch of seasons would be the last here. I don't think that any significant number would still avidly follow the team there, but imo they underestimate the Bills fanbase. I think tix for that last season, unless we really suck worse than we do now, would be a hot ticket. Even then they might be.



Wow. This writer is really stupid.

[trapezeus]

well a canadian blog said it, so i'll hold my breath.

these are all the points we've tried to assess 1000 times. its down to the bidding process.

[Yasgur's Farm]

The new owner of the Bills (assuming he/she keeps them in WNY) will need to shift marketing to CNY and NWPA. Toronto can support an NFL franchise on it's own... They will eventually get one IMO. That means the Bills need to focus there fan base efforts away from Canada in order to be viable in the future. Look for the new stadium to be west of Buffalo. probably close to the 90 IMO.

PS... A rivalry with Toronto will be epic and something the NFL will want to pursue.

[Fletch]

1. This is why if the Toronto group does win & buys the Bills they will play to a ghost of a crowd at the Stadium in Buffalo.

You really think this?

I can't even imagine. All we hear here and everywhere else is what great fans we have. So now everyone's insisting that if the team is sold and announces future plans to move the team AFTER 6 more seasons, that no one's going to games here?

That doesn't add up now, does it.

Even if that happens they're still the BUFFALO Bills for how ever many more seasons. Now, I can see the stadium being empty if Whaley, Brandon, and the rest of the fools in the front office are left in there under a new owner and with no end to misery in sight the current trend continues, particularly once we get within 3 seasons or so of the move date, but I wouldn't relate that to the team moving, I'd more relate it to a front office that has insulted its fanbase for a couple of decades and treated them more like boosters than actual paying fans.

[Fletch]

Wow. This writer is really stupid.

So what you're saying is that we have the best fans in the NFL, but the second that it's announced that the team is moving then that fanbase will turn on its own team in a split second even though that team is still here in Buffalo?

WOW! Just WOW!

And you guys call me not a fan.

WOW!

[Fletch]

The new owner of the Bills (assuming he/she keeps them in WNY) will need to shift marketing to CNY and NWPA. Toronto can support an NFL franchise on it's own... They will eventually get one IMO. That means the Bills need to focus there fan base efforts away from Canada in order to be viable in the future. Look for the new stadium to be west of Buffalo. probably close to the 90 IMO.

PS... A rivalry with Toronto will be epic and something the NFL will want to pursue.

Ever been to NWPA? It's either Steelers or Browns there. Also, that population base is scrawny and insignificant.

As to CNY, the only way that they're going to capture that audience more than it follows the Giants is to build a stadium closer to it. Not sure that's in the cards. I guess we'll find out what Pegula's or Golisano's plans are once they buy the team if they get it.

[Fletch]

well a canadian blog said it, so i'll hold my breath.

these are all the points we've tried to assess 1000 times. its down to the bidding process.

Yeah, agree. I only posted this because it made a couple of good points that people here claim to know when no one else does, not even people much closer to the situation, such as the notion that we have no idea what's in the instructions to the trust, whether it's highest bidder or to someone that promises to keep the team around here, which is all but worthless since every bidder will.

The other thing was that the trust can hardly prevent selling to a future owner while dictating what he's going to do with the team regarding moving it. It's not like Wilson or his "will" is going to run this team posthumously for two more decades, which some people here seem to think will happen. It's a ridiculous thought.

[Bill Cody]

1) the reason I've been concerned for many years about the fact that Wilson failed to make a deal before he died for the team (even if that deal did not take effect until he died) is that it left open the possibility of the team going to the highest bidder. It's still a concern. So I agree with the grizzled financial insiders on this.

2) The lease is the one reason, and it's a big reason, why I'm not in full panic mode right now. $400m is a lot of dough. My money is still on Peg to come out of this standing. But it ain't over till it's over and that's entirely Ralph's fault.

3) I don't know about ghost town, that's strong but I lean much closer to Better Days take on the issue of attendance if a Toronto group buys the team. Human nature says people don't like being lied to to the faces and being told in essence that they're idiots. That's about what the Toronto group would be saying to Bills fans if they said they were staying in Buffalo. And make no mistake, attending football games is a community event. It costs a lot to go and there's a lot of effort involved. if Bills fans feel a sense of pending betrayal lots of them simply won't bother. It may not reduce the TV ratings as much, old habits die hard, but forking out big bucks to go to games is an entirely different matter and it would hurt attendance a LOT.

[ServoBillieves]

So what you're saying is that we have the best fans in the NFL, but the second that it's announced that the team is moving then that fanbase will turn on its own team in a split second even though that team is still here in Buffalo?

WOW! Just WOW!

And you guys call me not a fan.

WOW!

Would the team feel like it was still the Buffalo Bills if you knew that in a few years that would no longer be the case? Would you be proud to say "yeah, I rooted my heart out for the team that was taken to Toronto and USED to be an NFL team?" So many underlying factors that you disregard to favor "being right."

If a group comes in here, after saying they aren't moving the team and then move them, would you support a bold faced lie to millions of people? That's no longer Ralph's/Buffalo's/our team, it's a bold faced lie. "Let's hope that before they leave, the NFL can script a great, feel good story for us so that it hurts less when they're the Argo's!" It's bull****, the team stays in WNY and we all stay fans, it goes and people will jump ship with good reason.

[Goobylal]

Lol...'grizzled' financial insiders.

The threat of moving will always be a factor, regardless of who owns the team.
Not if it's Pegula.

[better days]

You really think this?

I can't even imagine. All we hear here and everywhere else is what great fans we have. So now everyone's insisting that if the team is sold and announces future plans to move the team AFTER 6 more seasons, that no one's going to games here?

That doesn't add up now, does it.

Even if that happens they're still the BUFFALO Bills for how ever many more seasons. Now, I can see the stadium being empty if Whaley, Brandon, and the rest of the fools in the front office are left in there under a new owner and with no end to misery in sight the current trend continues, particularly once we get within 3 seasons or so of the move date, but I wouldn't relate that to the team moving, I'd more relate it to a front office that has insulted its fanbase for a couple of decades and treated them more like boosters than actual paying fans.

Let's say you are a great husband & father. You have worked & sacrificed to provide for your wife & family.

Then your wife says she is in love with another man & she is no longer going to have sex with you, but she wants to stay with you for the childrens sake for the next 6 years until the children are older what would you do?

Treat her the same as before? Take her on expensive vacations just the two of you? Or would you IGNORE her & look for someone else?

Yes, it does add up that people will ignore the Bills, knowing that douches from Toronto will move them at the first chance they get.

[OpIv37]

The new owner of the Bills (assuming he/she keeps them in WNY) will need to shift marketing to CNY and NWPA. Toronto can support an NFL franchise on it's own... They will eventually get one IMO. That means the Bills need to focus there fan base efforts away from Canada in order to be viable in the future. Look for the new stadium to be west of Buffalo. probably close to the 90 IMO.

PS... A rivalry with Toronto will be epic and something the NFL will want to pursue.
There will never be NFL teams in both Buffalo and Toronto at the same time. The region can't support two teams.

If the team moves to LA, there's at least a small chance we could get them back as an expansion like Cleveland/Houston, but if they move to Toronto, it's over.

The Bills could never replace the fans and corporate support from Toronto by marketing to CNY because CNY doesn't have the population or the businesses. Also, the Bills would have to compete with the Jets and the Giants.

[THATHURMANATOR]

You really think this?

I can't even imagine. All we hear here and everywhere else is what great fans we have. So now everyone's insisting that if the team is sold and announces future plans to move the team AFTER 6 more seasons, that no one's going to games here?

That doesn't add up now, does it.

Even if that happens they're still the BUFFALO Bills for how ever many more seasons. Now, I can see the stadium being empty if Whaley, Brandon, and the rest of the fools in the front office are left in there under a new owner and with no end to misery in sight the current trend continues, particularly once we get within 3 seasons or so of the move date, but I wouldn't relate that to the team moving, I'd more relate it to a front office that has insulted its fanbase for a couple of decades and treated them more like boosters than actual paying fans.

You are very Naive.

If they announced the team was leaving in 6 years there might be one year of complete riots at the stadium followed by 4 or 5 completely empty seats. It wouldn't make us bad fans either.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Now of course the group would NEVER come right out and say they were leaving until the exact time came. Why would they?

They would continue on the course they are on now, continuing to lie to our faces and then shipping them out of town as soon as they are able.

[better days]

Now of course the group would NEVER come right out and say they were leaving until the exact time came. Why would they?

They would continue on the course they are on now, continuing to lie to our faces and then shipping them out of town as soon as they are able.

Agreed, but the riots & empty stadium would still take place because EVERYONE knows it would be a lie that the team would not be moved.


For me, the best thing in this article is learning the Toronto group does not have all that much money.

Pegula just sold land for more money than the Toronto group has to invest. I am not worried at this point.

[OpIv37]

Now of course the group would NEVER come right out and say they were leaving until the exact time came. Why would they?

They would continue on the course they are on now, continuing to lie to our faces and then shipping them out of town as soon as they are able.
I agree but the fans will know. If this Bon Jovi/Toronto group or the LA group win, no one is going to believe that they are going to keep the team in town. The only way to convince fans will be shovels in the ground on a new stadium in Buffalo.

- - - Updated - - -


Now of course the group would NEVER come right out and say they were leaving until the exact time came. Why would they?

They would continue on the course they are on now, continuing to lie to our faces and then shipping them out of town as soon as they are able.
I agree but the fans will know. If this Bon Jovi/Toronto group or the LA group win, no one is going to believe that they are going to keep the team in town. The only way to convince fans will be shovels in the ground on a new stadium in Buffalo.

[THATHURMANATOR]

100% with you OP.

[Jan Reimers]

Let's stop thinking of Bon Jovi as the Bills' buyer. He is the frontman/toady for some big Toronto money. He is at least an American, so he simply becomes more acceptable to some. He is no more buying the Bills than Jim Kelly was going to buy them.

With that said, and given his lack of financial clout in the Toronto cartel, I would trust his word to keep the Bills in Buffalo less than Art Modell's or Bob Irsay's to keep their teams in Cleveland and Baltimore, respectively.

[Typ0]

I think the answers to these questions come from the mentality of the NFL. If their marketing plan in the future envisions expanding the league they will want to keep the team in Buffalo. If they foresee expanding into more lucrative markets by moving franchises that already exist that is what puts it up in the air. it's not really about the money. Yes, anyone would want to spend the least amount of money possible to move the team. However, you spend some money to provide the best long term returns ....

[OpIv37]

As far as the overall chances of the team moving, I'm not sure how I feel.

I felt a lot better after the new lease was signed.

After Ralph died, this Toronto group and the LA group sprung up, but they seemed to lose momentum quickly behind Pegula, Golisano and Jacobs.

But for some reason the moving talk just won't go away, and that's what's making me uncomfortable. Needing a new stadium definitely hurts. A viable stadium would be a deterrent to moving because every city that has an NFL quality stadium already has a team in it. But whoever buys the team is going to need to build one, whether it's in Buffalo, LA, Toronto or somewhere else.

This article hints that people in the league want out of Buffalo in favor of a more lucrative market, which most of us already suspected anyway.

I just hope that whatever happens will happen quickly so we can stop talking about this.

[SpikedLemonade]

There will never be NFL teams in both Buffalo and Toronto at the same time. The region can't support two teams.

If the team moves to LA, there's at least a small chance we could get them back as an expansion like Cleveland/Houston, but if they move to Toronto, it's over.

The Bills could never replace the fans and corporate support from Toronto by marketing to CNY because CNY doesn't have the population or the businesses. Also, the Bills would have to compete with the Jets and the Giants.

(1) If you were to randomly pick 100 people on the streets of Toronto and ask them, I am sure zero would consider Buffalo in the same region as Toronto. Perhaps some of the 100 people on the Buffalo streets would think otherwise but it is the same wrong mentality as Rochester had that people from Toronto would want to take a ferry to Rochester.

(2) I see little to no corporate support from Toronto at Buffalo Bills games in Buffalo other than perhaps corporations trying to market to Canadians attending Bills games. With border crossing delays and the Bills playing poorly for a decade and a half, I see the number of people attending from Toronto declining. There are still plenty of fans from Canada attending but they are from Hamilton, St. Catherines, Niagara Falls, etc.

[Novacane]

So what you're saying is that we have the best fans in the NFL, but the second that it's announced that the team is moving then that fanbase will turn on its own team in a split second even though that team is still here in Buffalo?

WOW! Just WOW!

And you guys call me not a fan.

WOW!


I'm not one of these that brag about being the best fans. Fans in many other cities are just as rabid.

Absolutely the fans will turn on them if they knew the team was leaving. There is no doubt in my mind.

[OpIv37]

(1) If you were to randomly pick 100 people on the streets of Toronto and ask them, I am sure zero would consider Buffalo in the same region as Toronto. Perhaps some of the 100 people on the Buffalo streets would think otherwise but it is the same wrong mentality as Rochester had that people from Toronto would want to take a ferry to Rochester.

(2) I see little to no corporate support from Toronto at Buffalo Bills games in Buffalo other than perhaps corporations trying to market to Canadians attending Bills games. With border crossing delays and the Bills playing poorly for a decade and a half, I see the number of people attending from Toronto declining. There are still plenty of fans from Canada attending but they are from Hamilton, St. Catherines, Niagara Falls, etc.

1. In terms of the NFL, it's the same region because a team in Toronto would compete with the Bills in those Canadian cities you just mentioned. If the team were more successful than the Bills, they might even steal fans from Buffalo. A lot of younger people in the DC suburbs are Ravens fans because the Redskins have sucked for pretty much their whole lives. But maybe "market" would have been a better term than "region."

2. I haven't been to a home game in a few years so maybe the Canadian support isn't that great anymore, but it's still a better market to go after than CNY.

[better days]

1. In terms of the NFL, it's the same region because a team in Toronto would compete with the Bills in those Canadian cities you just mentioned. If the team were more successful than the Bills, they might even steal fans from Buffalo. A lot of younger people in the DC suburbs are Ravens fans because the Redskins have sucked for pretty much their whole lives. But maybe "market" would have been a better term than "region."

2. I haven't been to a home game in a few years so maybe the Canadian support isn't that great anymore, but it's still a better market to go after than CNY.

I see no reason the Bills can't go after both markets. Put the new Stadium where it can be easily reached by both.

But I would expect Pegula to put it in Buffalo.

[SpikedLemonade]

I see no reason the Bills can't go after both markets. Put the new Stadium where it can be easily reached by both.

But I would expect Pegula to put it in Buffalo.

Yes, yes we know. You expect Pegula's charity because as you have said Pegula would not be buying the team to make money like the other NFL owners.

[OpIv37]

I see no reason the Bills can't go after both markets. Put the new Stadium where it can be easily reached by both.

But I would expect Pegula to put it in Buffalo.
They can and should go after both markets.

I'm just saying that if Toronto had their own team that syphoned off some of the support from southern Ontario, CNY alone wouldn't be able to replace that support.

[better days]

Yes, yes we know. You expect Pegula's charity because as you have said Pegula would not be buying the team to make money like the other NFL owners.

I don't know that it would be called charity.

Was it charity when Pegula bought the Sabres?

I would call it civic pride. And I think that has more to do with the Toronto group wanting a team for that City as well.

The group from Toronto have civic pride in that City, NOT in Buffalo. The only thing Buffalo has to offer them is MONEY.

[trapezeus]

also, the fletches and the spiked lemonades presume that the only profit a new owner is looking for is in ticket sales.

if you take the pegula model and try to build up other areas around the stadium and around your sport, you have additional revenue streams to build off of. you buy the real estate and take ownership of other facilities that synergize off your team, you can help rebuild a city, increase property values, restore some vitality and make some coin for going in on the risk. plus the state is showering money in the area.

particularly with this deal for the bills, NYS will be involved. it's their only team, the politicians know they have a political football (literally and metaphorically). They can't be at the helm and lose a team. especially with $130MM going into stadium renovations right now.

[OpIv37]

I don't know that it would be called charity.

Was it charity when Pegula bought the Sabres?

I would call it civic pride. And I think that has more to do with the Toronto group wanting a team for that City as well.

The group from Toronto have civic pride in that City, NOT in Buffalo. The only thing Buffalo has to offer them is MONEY.

If Buffalo had money,then Pegula wouldn't have bought the Sabres for some sense of civic pride/charity whatever you want call it. He would have bought it to make money.

And I REALLY hope Buffalo has more to offer the new owner than money, because if it's just about money, Buffalo will lose.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Can't they just get this over with already.

I am sick of hearing about it.

I have been worrying about this scenario since back when Flutie was playing.

JUST GET IT OVER WITH... When will they announce Pegula as the new owner?

[better days]

If Buffalo had money,then Pegula wouldn't have bought the Sabres for some sense of civic pride/charity whatever you want call it. He would have bought it to make money.

And I REALLY hope Buffalo has more to offer the new owner than money, because if it's just about money, Buffalo will lose.

Well, Pegula is a passionate Hockey fan. More than anything I think he bought the Sabres for that reason, but his wife is from Buffalo & since buying the Sabres, Pegula has invested in the City of Buffalo & has become a Buffalonian.

And yes it is just about the money for the Toronto group. If they buy the Bills, it will be to make money until the team can be moved to Toronto where they want it to be.

[better days]

Can't they just get this over with already.

I am sick of hearing about it.

I have been worrying about this scenario since back when Flutie was playing.

JUST GET IT OVER WITH... When will they announce Pegula as the new owner?

I heard on WGR this morning it will be SOON. They said they want this wrapped up as soon as possible for tax purposes.

Expect the new owner to be approved by the October meeting from what they said this morning.

[chris66]

The new owner of the Bills (assuming he/she keeps them in WNY) will need to shift marketing to CNY and NWPA. Toronto can support an NFL franchise on it's own... They will eventually get one IMO. That means the Bills need to focus there fan base efforts away from Canada in order to be viable in the future. Look for the new stadium to be west of Buffalo. probably close to the 90 IMO.

PS... A rivalry with Toronto will be epic and something the NFL will want to pursue.

No they wont. Bills management will fight like hell and insist that Toronto is part of their Market.

Thats why anybody who insists that the NFL wants to keep the Bills in Buffalo is foolish. By keeping the team in buffalo they are basically closing the door on what would be the 3rd largest market in the NFL

[better days]

No they wont. Bills management will fight like hell and insist that Toronto is part of their Market.

Thats why anybody who insists that the NFL wants to keep the Bills in Buffalo is foolish. By keeping the team in buffalo they are basically closing the door on what would be the 3rd largest market in the NFL

I didn't know Toronto was larger than Chicago. Sarcasm off.

Greater Chicago has over 9 Mill people while Toronto has over 5 Million. In other words, Chicago is almost twice as big as Toronto.

Western New York has 2.5 Million people or about the same population as the Pittsburgh area or the inner City of Toronto.

[chris66]

I didn't know Toronto was larger than Chicago. Sarcasm off.

Greater Chicago has over 9 Mill people while Toronto has over 5 Million. In other words, Chicago is almost twice as big as Toronto.

Western New York has 2.5 Million people or about the same population as the Pittsburgh area or the inner City of Toronto.Age is getting to you isnt it
teams in an nfl market 1 nyc, 2 chicago, 3 toronto if they had a team. L.A. would be 2nd but they currently dont have a team

[better days]

Age is getting to you isnt it
teams in an nfl market 1 nyc, 2 chicago, 3 toronto if they had a team. L.A. would be 2nd but they currently dont have a team

Well, Toronto does not have a team either. So it is no more relevant than LA.

On WGR this morning they said there will be about 16 bids for the Bills.

Why would anyone expect that at least one of them is not by someone that wants to move the Bills to LA?

And we already know that only one group from Toronto wants to buy the Bills, so if not LA, that means the 15 other bids are by people that want to keep the team in Buffalo.

[Jry44]

The bottom line is that the future of the franchise staying in B-lo is in the hands of the Wilson estate. We can read blogs and articles until our eyeballs fall out on people guessing where the franchise will end up, but in the end if the Wilson's really want the Bills to stay put, they will accept a bid from either Terry Pegula or Tom Golisano. With Jim Kellys group being the wildcard. My hunch is that those are the three front runners, with the Toronto group being the long shot.

Lets not forget to factor in the rest of the owners approving of a sale.

[OpIv37]

The bottom line is that the future of the franchise staying in B-lo is in the hands of the Wilson estate. We can read blogs and articles until our eyeballs fall out on people guessing where the franchise will end up, but in the end if the Wilson's really want the Bills to stay put, they will accept a bid from either Terry Pegula or Tom Golisano. With Jim Kellys group being the wildcard. My hunch is that those are the three front runners, with the Toronto group being the long shot.

Lets not forget to factor in the rest of the owners approving of a sale.
Here's the problem: if Ralph really cared about the Bills staying in Buffalo, then why didn't he sell to Pegula, Golisano or Jacobs before he died? He can stipulate what he wants in his estate, but if the trust violates the terms in favor of money, who's gonna know? And even if they sue and win, the team could have already moved and the courts aren't going to force an NFL team to relocate, so the only restitution is money, which doesn't get our team back.

I don't see the owner approval as a big deal. As long as a bid to keep the team in Buffalo maintains or improves the status quo, they will rubber stamp it. The only way the owners won't pass it is if there is a ridiculous discrepancy, like if the trust sells to Pegula for $900mm but the Toronto group offers $1.5bn

[Novacane]

No they wont. Bills management will fight like hell and insist that Toronto is part of their Market.

Thats why anybody who insists that the NFL wants to keep the Bills in Buffalo is foolish. By keeping the team in buffalo they are basically closing the door on what would be the 3rd largest market in the NFL


It doesn't matter how big the market is if they don't care about NFL football.

[stuckincincy]

It doesn't matter how big the market is if they don't care about NFL football.

Don't waste your breath - that fact doesn't register here.

[better days]

It doesn't matter how big the market is if they don't care about NFL football.

I have said that myself many times before.

And Rodgers had to be coaxed into joining the Toronto group because the Bills in Toronto series was such a HUGE FIASCO.

[Turf]

Anyone see this on MSN?

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/banned-in-buffalo--movement-among-bills-fans-gives-bon-jovi--his-music-a-bad-name-220255703-nfl.html

[OpIv37]

Btw, it's a scary thought that a new ownership group might be able to convince the league that Toronto and Buffalo are the same market, because that means they can move the team to Toronto without having to pay the $400 million relocation fee.

[Jry44]

Here's the problem: if Ralph really cared about the Bills staying in Buffalo, then why didn't he sell to Pegula, Golisano or Jacobs before he died? He can stipulate what he wants in his estate, but if the trust violates the terms in favor of money, who's gonna know? And even if they sue and win, the team could have already moved and the courts aren't going to force an NFL team to relocate, so the only restitution is money, which doesn't get our team back.

I don't see the owner approval as a big deal. As long as a bid to keep the team in Buffalo maintains or improves the status quo, they will rubber stamp it. The only way the owners won't pass it is if there is a ridiculous discrepancy, like if the trust sells to Pegula for $900mm but the Toronto group offers $1.5bn

I can't answer this question, neither of us can because we do not know why he wouldn't sell before he passed. What we do know is that this franchise was his baby, and he wanted to keep it until the very end. Everything else about his personal wishes for the franchise after is passing is purely speculative.

What we do know is that the commissioner has come out and stated that he wanted the team to stay put. With RW being held in such high regard by the rest of the owners, I think anyone looking to buy and move the team will have a difficult time gaining a majority vote in favor of moving RW's franchise from the rest of the leagues owners.

[Goobylal]

Btw, it's a scary thought that a new ownership group might be able to convince the league that Toronto and Buffalo are the same market, because that means they can move the team to Toronto without having to pay the $400 million relocation fee.
Yeah, good luck with that! The owners would never give up money.

BTW, does anyone know if games that don't sellout at the Ralph are blacked out in Toronto as well?

[SpikedLemonade]

BTW, does anyone know if games that don't sellout at the Ralph are blacked out in Toronto as well?

Yes they are.

[Goobylal]

Yes they are.
Thanks and that's what I figured, since they're within the 75 mile radius (wasn't sure if being in a different country affected anything). So they're part of the Bills' market. But the owners won't forgive a $400M relo fee.

[OpIv37]

Thanks and that's what I figured, since they're within the 75 mile radius (wasn't sure if being in a different country affected anything). So they're part of the Bills' market. But the owners won't forgive a $400M relo fee.
It may not be up to them. I could see the new owners suing them if they try to say that Toronto is the Buffalo market in terms of blackouts but not in terms of relocation.

And remember, we are talking businessmen here. Sharing $400 million amongst 31 teams is nice but it's nothing in terms of the overall wealth of these guys. If they think that a team in Toronto will generate more money and turn the franchise from a revenue sharing recipient to a revenue sharing contributor, it might be worth it to them to forego a one time payment.

So, it's not just about the owners choosing not to give up $400 million. It's more complex than that.

[SpikedLemonade]

Thanks and that's what I figured, since they're within the 75 mile radius (wasn't sure if being in a different country affected anything). So they're part of the Bills' market. But the owners won't forgive a $400M relo fee.

The $400M relocation fee is an estimate and I have only seen it quoted with respect to a relocation of a team to LA. Basically, the relocation fee is how the owners all get a direct share in the increase in value a team would see with a move to that city given they will not be receiving a share of a new franchise fee.

The $400M relocation fee should not be confused with the specific $400M lease penalty clause that exists in the Bills current lease.

I don't know if the NFL owners would insist on a relocation fee if the Bills were to move to Toronto, but I think it would be less than $400M because the Bills would be worth more in LA than then would be in Toronto.

The only way the Bills would move to Toronto is in 2020 or 2022 would be if not enough public money was committed in Buffalo for a new stadium. I highly doubt there would be public money committed in Toronto, but perhaps a new owner might conclude that if he has to spend a lot of his own money for a stadium, he might as well do that in Toronto. That conclusion may also be reached if there are black outs in Buffalo over the next 6 years as the price of tickets are raised to keep up with the league average.

[Goobylal]

It may not be up to them. I could see the new owners suing them if they try to say that Toronto is the Buffalo market in terms of blackouts but not in terms of relocation.

And remember, we are talking businessmen here. Sharing $400 million amongst 31 teams is nice but it's nothing in terms of the overall wealth of these guys. If they think that a team in Toronto will generate more money and turn the franchise from a revenue sharing recipient to a revenue sharing contributor, it might be worth it to them to forego a one time payment.

So, it's not just about the owners choosing not to give up $400 million. It's more complex than that.
The owners could agree to forgo the relocation fee. But if they want it, they'll get it. They go after every last cent and have gone after others for far far less. And suing your new fellow owners isn't exactly smart.

The $400M relocation fee is an estimate and I have only seen it quoted with respect to a relocation of a team to LA. Basically, the relocation fee is how the owners all get a direct share in the increase in value a team would see with a move to that city given they will not be receiving a share of a new franchise fee.

The $400M relocation fee should not be confused with the specific $400M lease penalty clause that exists in the Bills current lease.

I don't know if the NFL owners would insist on a relocation fee if the Bills were to move to Toronto, but I think it would be less than $400M because the Bills would be worth more in LA than then would be in Toronto.

The only way the Bills would move to Toronto is in 2020 or 2022 would be if not enough public money was committed in Buffalo for a new stadium. I highly doubt there would be public money committed in Toronto, but perhaps a new owner might conclude that if he has to spend a lot of his own money for a stadium, he might as well do that in Toronto. That conclusion may also be reached if there are black outs in Buffalo over the next 6 years as the price of tickets are raised to keep up with the league average.
I use $400M as a rough estimate. It could be more or it could be less, but I think it's a conservative estimate and still a sizable chunk of money.