A whole lot of you here need to read this!

[Fletch]

Ralph Wilson's will leaves no clue about sale of Bills
http://insurancenewsnet.com/oarticle/2014/08/01/ralph-wilsons-will-leaves-no-clue-about-sale-of-bills-a-538753.html

It clearly dismisses what those of you that claim to know the most regarding the sale of the team insist is true.

I defer my entire past postings on the subject to this piece.

[WagonCircler]

Keep dreaming.

[Fletch]

I love how you guys address the facts and then admit that you're wrong. It's comical.

Then again, this isn't exactly the local repository for factual information.

It's hilarious what happens when your arguments break down after the facts are revealed.

[OpIv37]

I don't understand. No one knows what's in the trust except the people who are part of the trust and a handful of lawyers and bankers advising them. That's not news.

are there people claiming they know?

[stuckincincy]

Ralph Wilson's will leaves no clue about sale of Bills
http://insurancenewsnet.com/oarticle/2014/08/01/ralph-wilsons-will-leaves-no-clue-about-sale-of-bills-a-538753.html

It clearly dismisses what those of you that claim to know the most regarding the sale of the team insist is true.

I defer my entire past postings on the subject to this piece.
You deleted your rant, too.

[swiper]

Fletch, do you live in Canada, by chance?

[Skooby]

I place my life on one article of speculation, LOL. You bet on that horse, it's all a guess & it's what you deserve.

[BillsImpossible]

"Did the <org value="SL/nfl.buff.bill" idsrc="xmltag.org" style="font-size: 1em; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; margin: 0em 0em 1.8em; padding: 0px;">Bills</org> founder -- whose loyalty to <org value="SL/nfl.buff.bill" idsrc="xmltag.org" style="font-size: 1em; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; margin: 0em 0em 1.8em; padding: 0px;">Buffalo</org> was legendary -- plan his estate to include a provision encouraging or even requiring the trust that now controls the team to sell it to an owner who would agree to keep it in <location value="LU/us.ny.buffal" idsrc="xmltag.org" style="font-size: 1em; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; margin: 0em 0em 1.8em; padding: 0px;">Buffalo</location>?

We may never know the answer to that question...."

......

[BillsImpossible]

Seeing as Ralph's loyalty to Buffalo was indeed legendary, isn't the answer to the above question quite obvious?

Why would a man who built his entire life and legacy want to throw it all away in the end?

Did Ralph make certain arrangements to keep the Bills in Buffalo?

Do bears crap?

[YardRat]

Lol....seriously? What exactly is that article supposed to prove, or disprove?

[BillsImpossible]

Lol....seriously? What exactly is that article supposed to prove, or disprove?

Nada.

In a way the article answers its own question.

Ralph Wilson was incredibly loyal to Buffalo until his final breath. He died owning the Buffalo Bills, and vowed to never let go until the end.

The Buffalo Bills were his baby, and he never flew the coop.

Ralph was old school. Loyalty meant a lot to him. He could have sold the team a long, long time ago but never let go.

So why would Ralph Wilson NOT make sure his legacy was maintained where it all started?

The man had a 100% track record in terms of loyalty in his 54 years as owner of the Buffalo Bills, but some people still think Ralph Wilson hasn't done enough.

[trapezeus]

Ralph Wilson's will leaves no clue about sale of Bills
http://insurancenewsnet.com/oarticle/2014/08/01/ralph-wilsons-will-leaves-no-clue-about-sale-of-bills-a-538753.html

It clearly dismisses what those of you that claim to know the most regarding the sale of the team insist is true.

I defer my entire past postings on the subject to this piece.

Fletch, did you read the article all the way through? It said a charitable trust would mean it would have to go to highest bidder and initial indicators are that it isn't as it doesn't show up in system, though there may be a lag. So this article doesn't prove that the team has to move as you have repeatedly said in every post you put out (aside from the times you take a break to **** on the Watkins pick).

You have to realize why people hate your negativity so much. In preseason to just keep bashing your tune that they could move with this air of knowing is tiring.

Yes the team has major warts on how it's run and who is in charge.
Yes there is a possibility that the team could move
Yes it's likely that they will miss the playoffs again.

But it's ****ing August. Homers and realists alike are talking about what they actually want to see. Like EJ improve, or the draft class to pan out, or coaching to be more strategic, or for the team to be sold to an owner who is vested in the community. Even posters like myself that rag on the team during the season, can at least say, "I hope Watkins is they thing to get ej to look good and keep the chains moving" but you can't even do that.

Once the season starts and plays count, you'll see the division amongst homers and realists. But right now, all fans are talking about optimism or potential optimism

Your tone is only to set up the likely scenarios and say "see I told you". And to have that with the location of where the team isn't in buffalo makes you a gigantic douchebag. All the stuff you post to prove that they are moving isn't as strong as people like pegula and golisano staying. You discount that they have other investments in the area where bills ownership helps their overall bottom line.

You dismiss nfl ownership approving a lease that makes it hard for the team to leave. If the owners didn't want a team here, they could have said with their votes. It would have been easier to have a year to year lease than sign this. You wouldn't have taken a ten yr restrictive lease with a 95 yr old owner

You dismiss that if 16-30 prospective buyers asked for the package and didn't put in a NONBINDING bid, it has a higher chance to be about relocation than it does about profitability. If I went to an auction and I could bid on something I wanted on my terms on a NONBINDING basis, why wouldn't I just submit my bid and see if I get something I want? It would have to be epicly poor performance for those prospective buyers to say "I looked at it, this thing is hemorahing money annually, I don't want a money pit" Perhaps performance so weak a league of owners would have stopped a lease from being signed 10 years. And even if $1.3bn isn't accurate, the 3 bidders have submitted above the forbes estimated value of $800mm. So why would three groups pay more than the present value if the others dropped out?

It seems like prospective bidders know about restrictive relocation covenants and 6yr risk prior to moving is too rich for their blood.

Where are your answers to common sense and logic? It will be in the unwavering form of "but they could move" repeatedly and ad naseum. You'll be writing tombs to every single post that more or less simply say they want the team they love to stay. But you seemingly enjoy taking a deuce on it, repeatedly.

So that's why you get the negativity and I truly hope if pegula wins, you and spiked take this tiresome act to another board.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Wills must go through probate court. Trust are set-up to avoid probate courts and actually are set-up to provide more details of wises than the wills. The wills really are not necessary when a good trust is in place... But they generally exist as back-ups to the trusts.

[kishoph]

Lol....seriously? What exactly is that article supposed to prove, or disprove?

It proves that in Michigan a will is not privy to the public, unlike a lease made up in Erie County, N.Y. that states everything the OP says doesn't exist does.

To the OP, if you're going to keep trying to dig up everything negative (or what you and some hack perceive as negative) about the Bills, at least make it fresh and not something that most posters here seen 2 days ago.

[Mace]

It proves that in Michigan a will is not privy to the public, unlike a lease made up in Erie County, N.Y. that states everything the OP says doesn't exist does.

To the OP, if you're going to keep trying to dig up everything negative (or what you and some hack perceive as negative) about the Bills, at least make it fresh and not something that most posters here seen 2 days ago.

That sort of sets that the background is uncertain but doesn't make any point besides that the point is uncertain.

Mostly means we can't know what we don't know until we know it.

[WagonCircler]

It proves that in Michigan a will is not privy to the public, unlike a lease made up in Erie County, N.Y. that states everything the OP says doesn't exist does..

This post should close the thread. There's really nothing more to say than this.

Perfect.

[Mace]

This post should close the thread. There's really nothing more to say than this.

Perfect.

As if, Mr. Man.

[ServoBillieves]

Fletch, did you read the article all the way through? It said a charitable trust would mean it would have to go to highest bidder and initial indicators are that it isn't as it doesn't show up in system, though there may be a lag. So this article doesn't prove that the team has to move as you have repeatedly said in every post you put out (aside from the times you take a break to **** on the Watkins pick).

You have to realize why people hate your negativity so much. In preseason to just keep bashing your tune that they could move with this air of knowing is tiring.

Yes the team has major warts on how it's run and who is in charge.
Yes there is a possibility that the team could move
Yes it's likely that they will miss the playoffs again.

But it's ****ing August. Homers and realists alike are talking about what they actually want to see. Like EJ improve, or the draft class to pan out, or coaching to be more strategic, or for the team to be sold to an owner who is vested in the community. Even posters like myself that rag on the team during the season, can at least say, "I hope Watkins is they thing to get ej to look good and keep the chains moving" but you can't even do that.

Once the season starts and plays count, you'll see the division amongst homers and realists. But right now, all fans are talking about optimism or potential optimism

Your tone is only to set up the likely scenarios and say "see I told you". And to have that with the location of where the team isn't in buffalo makes you a gigantic douchebag. All the stuff you post to prove that they are moving isn't as strong as people like pegula and golisano staying. You discount that they have other investments in the area where bills ownership helps their overall bottom line.

You dismiss nfl ownership approving a lease that makes it hard for the team to leave. If the owners didn't want a team here, they could have said with their votes. It would have been easier to have a year to year lease than sign this. You wouldn't have taken a ten yr restrictive lease with a 95 yr old owner

You dismiss that if 16-30 prospective buyers asked for the package and didn't put in a NONBINDING bid, it has a higher chance to be about relocation than it does about profitability. If I went to an auction and I could bid on something I wanted on my terms on a NONBINDING basis, why wouldn't I just submit my bid and see if I get something I want? It would have to be epicly poor performance for those prospective buyers to say "I looked at it, this thing is hemorahing money annually, I don't want a money pit" Perhaps performance so weak a league of owners would have stopped a lease from being signed 10 years. And even if $1.3bn isn't accurate, the 3 bidders have submitted above the forbes estimated value of $800mm. So why would three groups pay more than the present value if the others dropped out?

It seems like prospective bidders know about restrictive relocation covenants and 6yr risk prior to moving is too rich for their blood.

Where are your answers to common sense and logic? It will be in the unwavering form of "but they could move" repeatedly and ad naseum. You'll be writing tombs to every single post that more or less simply say they want the team they love to stay. But you seemingly enjoy taking a deuce on it, repeatedly.

So that's why you get the negativity and I truly hope if pegula wins, you and spiked take this tiresome act to another board.

/thread.

[Goobylal]

...and when the Bills get sold to Pegula (or Golisano), what then?

[Mace]

...and when the Bills get sold to Pegula (or Golisano), what then?

Pegula you get people to blame next 15 years, Golisano you get people to blame 2 1/2. You cheer them if it works, ***** if it doesn't, this is not complicated.

[kishoph]

Where are your answers to common sense and logic? It will be in the unwavering form of "but they could move" repeatedly and ad naseum. You'll be writing tombs to every single post that more or less simply say they want the team they love to stay. But you seemingly enjoy taking a deuce on it, repeatedly.

So that's why you get the negativity and I truly hope if pegula wins, you and spiked take this tiresome act to another board.

Why should he let facts get in the way in a attempt to soil everything Bills related ?

[X-Era]

All the personal attacks have been removed. Play nice.

[BertSquirtgum]

Ralph Wilson's will leaves no clue about sale of Bills
http://insurancenewsnet.com/oarticle/2014/08/01/ralph-wilsons-will-leaves-no-clue-about-sale-of-bills-a-538753.html

It clearly dismisses what those of you that claim to know the most regarding the sale of the team insist is true.

I defer my entire past postings on the subject to this piece.

Oh Canada. Why are you so jealous of our football team? Get your own team, you ****ing scum buckets.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

Fletch, did you read the article all the way through? It said a charitable trust would mean it would have to go to highest bidder and initial indicators are that it isn't as it doesn't show up in system, though there may be a lag. So this article doesn't prove that the team has to move as you have repeatedly said in every post you put out (aside from the times you take a break to **** on the Watkins pick).

You have to realize why people hate your negativity so much. In preseason to just keep bashing your tune that they could move with this air of knowing is tiring.

Yes the team has major warts on how it's run and who is in charge.
Yes there is a possibility that the team could move
Yes it's likely that they will miss the playoffs again.

But it's ****ing August. Homers and realists alike are talking about what they actually want to see. Like EJ improve, or the draft class to pan out, or coaching to be more strategic, or for the team to be sold to an owner who is vested in the community. Even posters like myself that rag on the team during the season, can at least say, "I hope Watkins is they thing to get ej to look good and keep the chains moving" but you can't even do that.

Once the season starts and plays count, you'll see the division amongst homers and realists. But right now, all fans are talking about optimism or potential optimism

Your tone is only to set up the likely scenarios and say "see I told you". And to have that with the location of where the team isn't in buffalo makes you a gigantic douchebag. All the stuff you post to prove that they are moving isn't as strong as people like pegula and golisano staying. You discount that they have other investments in the area where bills ownership helps their overall bottom line.

You dismiss nfl ownership approving a lease that makes it hard for the team to leave. If the owners didn't want a team here, they could have said with their votes. It would have been easier to have a year to year lease than sign this. You wouldn't have taken a ten yr restrictive lease with a 95 yr old owner

You dismiss that if 16-30 prospective buyers asked for the package and didn't put in a NONBINDING bid, it has a higher chance to be about relocation than it does about profitability. If I went to an auction and I could bid on something I wanted on my terms on a NONBINDING basis, why wouldn't I just submit my bid and see if I get something I want? It would have to be epicly poor performance for those prospective buyers to say "I looked at it, this thing is hemorahing money annually, I don't want a money pit" Perhaps performance so weak a league of owners would have stopped a lease from being signed 10 years. And even if $1.3bn isn't accurate, the 3 bidders have submitted above the forbes estimated value of $800mm. So why would three groups pay more than the present value if the others dropped out?

It seems like prospective bidders know about restrictive relocation covenants and 6yr risk prior to moving is too rich for their blood.

Where are your answers to common sense and logic? It will be in the unwavering form of "but they could move" repeatedly and ad naseum. You'll be writing tombs to every single post that more or less simply say they want the team they love to stay. But you seemingly enjoy taking a deuce on it, repeatedly.

So that's why you get the negativity and I truly hope if pegula wins, you and spiked take this tiresome act to another board.

probably the best post i've seen in 6 years. if i could thank this 18000 times I would

[BertSquirtgum]

All the personal attacks have been removed. Play nice.

They are well deserved and you know it.

[better days]

I love how you guys address the facts and then admit that you're wrong. It's comical.

Then again, this isn't exactly the local repository for factual information.

It's hilarious what happens when your arguments break down after the facts are revealed.

Well, after Pegula buys the Bills & puts to rest any notion they may be moved,

it would be comical to see you & Spiked Lemonade admit to the fact the Bills are staying in Buffalo, But I doubt either of you are man enough to do so.

[Fletch]

You have to realize why people hate your negativity so much. In preseason to just keep bashing your tune that they could move with this air of knowing is tiring.

Yes the team has major warts on how it's run and who is in charge.
Yes there is a possibility that the team could move
Yes it's likely that they will miss the playoffs again.

Never once have I insisted that the team will move. Never once.

All I've done is to provide the reasons why from a business sense there is little hope that they won't move prior to the end of the existing lease or more likely after the out in it following the 2019 season.

Think about it, our biggest and maybe only hope is that a guy that's wealthy enough to buy the team, does so, and does so while ignoring the things that typically drive business transactions and makes a decision that potentially will lose him tens, maybe hundreds, of millions of dollars. And that that person then in the next five years or so takes it upon himself to then build a state of the art stadium that will likely cost $1B or so using primarily his own money.

Listen to yourself otherwise. You say that you're tired of "me knowing," and I don't insist that I know anything, but I put out facts and information and then use it to make my points. This is more than you or 90-some percent of other posters do. Most posters here just spew forth nonsense and idiotic comments more along the lines of what you said in that second part;


But it's ****ing August. Homers and realists alike are talking about what they actually want to see. Like EJ improve, or the draft class to pan out, or coaching to be more strategic, or for the team to be sold to an owner who is vested in the community.

For starters you assume that I don't want to see the same things when I do. The difference between me, you, and most others here with a handful of exceptions, is that I won't look at a rock and call it a piece of gold.

I'm not an idiot, a fool, gullible, nor do I lack wisdom. Other people post here as if what they say will happen simply because over 50% agree with it. I mean what nonsense is that?

This is a forum for discussing the team. Imagine if we had a forum for discussing a business that we were in and we sat down and looked at our books and saw a balance sheet and P&L statements that revealed that we were a $1M company. But then we started talking and planning as if we were a multi-billion dollar company. Would that make sense?

There has to be some balance between reality and what we'd like to see here. Some of us enjoy discussing that, and if my posts or OPs posts, or Cincy's posts, or anyones posts bother you, then ****ing ignore them and don't respond. Why do you and others feel it necessary to insist that the rest of the world agree with you just because "that's what you want to happen?"

Well I'd like $10B worth of gold to fall from the sky and land in my front yard so that I can make a bid on the team. If I put that out there and suggested that "it's possible," there would be quite a few people laughing.

You say
Yes the team has major warts on how it's run and who is in charge.
Yes there is a possibility that the team could move
Yes it's likely that they will miss the playoffs again.

So why then is that stuff off limits?

Why is it that talking about KneeJ as if all of a sudden and for no apparent reason, and without even a glimmer of a basis for change based on visible evidence, is it more fun, makes more sense, or is otherwise better conversation for everyone to talk about the team as if that's not the case? Why? I see no reason.

At the end of the day this is a message forum. I don't give a siht whether or not you or anyone else agrees with me. I'm civil with people that are the same, I offer a lot of background for the positions that I hold, and I state plainly the reasons for those positions.

In the meantime, you and your bulldozen mentality of you and other posters that only want to see the positives, spin the statements and opinions of those that you call realists. Is there anything wrong with looking at the reality of things? Apparently you and others think that there is. Why?

I know I know, things are going to be different this year. Again, did you hear what you said above.


Yes the team has major warts on how it's run and who is in charge.
Yes there is a possibility that the team could move
Yes it's likely that they will miss the playoffs again.


But it's ****ing August. Homers and realists alike are talking about what they actually want to see. Like EJ improve, or the draft class to pan out, or coaching to be more strategic, or for the team to be sold to an owner who is vested in the community.

If you look at those two things side by side what you are saying is that you will ignore reality when it's convenient for purposes of discussion.

That's fine, but honestly, is that stance supposed to be respected by intelligent people? By people that look at facts and information and go out of their way to formulate their opinions on those facts/info?

Seriously?

Let me ask you a question: Does it make sense to ignore a whole bunch of reality to discuss the team, in any aspect whatsoever? What sort of foolishness is that. But that's what you and those that side with you are suggesting here. Hey, let's all ignore facts and reality and just discuss what we want to see. Then let's all go ballistic in November when our Cinderella dreams don't come true.

Really? I mean really?

Judging by what it says on the homepage of the site this place has been here since 2002. That's going on its 12th season.

Based on what I see there are about 30-40 active posters here. That's it? Of those I can count on two hands, with a couple of fingers to spare, those that truly seem interested in discussing the team based on reality and not on their Cinderella dreams of what they want to happen.

Why aren't there more good posters? It's because the foolish nature of discussing this team amongst those that want to put on rose-colored glasses dissuade it and make the place hell for those that don't want to see things that way. Instead name-calling, telling posters that they don't really want the team to win, or that they don't want draft picks to pan out, and the laughable, that they want the team to move, etc., are what sets the tone here. Despite any evidence to suggest those things beside simply criticism, you and others continue to tell people what they believe and the mob mentality here drives that and turns it into fact.

And you see that as good posting. LOL

Don't you think that we all want to see this team return to the playoffs? No, you don't. You and others seem to believe that the harshest critics of the team want it to move, go 0-16 every season, see us draft siht players, get coaches that haven't proven anything in the NFL, or ones that have failed altogether, etc.

How sociopathic and passive-aggressive is that viewpoint?

Yeah, we're sorry that we don't see KneeJ developing after five seasons of failing to be able to adjust to the simplest of things much less the more complex ones, and for not assuming that his shortcomings aren't going to render other players less than they could be.

We're sorry that we don't have faith in a front office, including Whaley, that has failed us as fans miserably for years.

We're sorry that we don't buy into the notion that taking the role-players and proven backups of other teams and trying to turn them into impact starters here.

We're sorry that Buffalo currently has the NFL's smallest TV market and a crumbling economy largely due to state politics.

But please pardon us while we have the audacity to discuss it.

What's ridiculous in this is that you slam on my (and implicitly others') "air of knowing," but while ignoring that mote you cannot see the log in your own eye.

Seems to me that a whole lot of people here KNOW ...

That the trust for the Bills can choose to sell to a bidder that isn't necessarily the highest bidder.

That Watkins is going to be setting team rookie records.

That Bryce Brown and Dixon are going to be doing something other than simply providing the role-playing backup play that either always has in either college or pro ball.

That Manuel is going to become accurate for no apparent reason within a few more weeks.

That the rest of our draft picks are going to do much when it's been years since we've had a draft with more than two players doing much over time.

That Hackett is going to shine this season when he's never shone in his life.

That as long as we get a bunch of sacks we're actually good when it's been proven over and over again that there's more to defense than sacks.

I could go on. You guys all have this "air of knowing" regarding those things, and you want us to defer to that just because it's "what you want to happen."

Sure, that makes a world of sense.

This forum has been here for 12 years now. It has hardly any posters that make much sense. Most of you dwell in some sort of parallel universe where facts don't seem to matter. Yes, I understand hope and that we all want the team to succeed. But unlike you, myself and a few others are not willing to deny proven things and realities in the hopes that doing the same thing over and over again is going to result in something different.

We also want things to change so that they will result in different things.


Yes the team has major warts on how it's run and who is in charge.

You know what, great, then let's discuss that as it may be and not like you want it to be! This is the core of the problem with this team, so hearing about how great Whaley is and how he's the next up-and-coming future great GM is ridiculous. So why claim that it's the case, he's done absolutely nothing as Asst. GM or now GM to propel this team forward. His two biggest moves have been KneeJ and Watkins. KneeJ is on the cusp of becoming one of the biggest busts that this franchise has ever known, and with that as the backdrop having drafted Watkins in the manner that he has therefore becomes one of the most idiotic decisions that any GM anywhere could possibly have made.

But hey, that's off limits in your glass-slipper world.

None of us wants the team to move, but if 100% of all posters here get together and agree that Pegula's bid so much, that the trust has the ability to sell the team to someone, even if the bid is $500M, that will keep the team here, that the Buffalo economy and MSA is much better than say that of Toronto or any number of other American MSAs than it really is, doesn't make any of it true.

But you don't care about that, all you want is to be discussed what people want to happen despite the fact that most of it is ill-founded and is far from reasonable. I mean why not hope for free parking to all home games this season too and talk about it as if it's going to happen until you get to the stadium and realize that someone's there to collect your money? What's the difference? It's possible, just as possible as say Manuel becoming a gamer at QB. Actually it's more possible, the decision could be made right now to do it.

What I don't understand is that you and your ilk say that you understand these things, but then you all go apesiht late in the season like all of the glaring failures are a surprise to you. Meanwhile, those of us that are critics of the team are the mentally stable ones in the forum in November and December and our positions don't change.

There's a huge gap in logic in your position in that way. If you're not happy with the endings of seasons, then quit being happy with the circumstances created by those that have created 15 seasons of losing and quit supporting them, but most of all quit insisting that those of us that don't support them support them when you do and only cease to support them when we get your blessed approval!

[Fletch]

Well, after Pegula buys the Bills & puts to rest any notion they may be moved,

it would be comical to see you & Spiked Lemonade admit to the fact the Bills are staying in Buffalo, But I doubt either of you are man enough to do so.

How does it put to rest that the team won't move? What if Pegula, who's 63, dies? Then what?

Think about what you're saying. You're saying that if Pegula manages to buy the team, with rumors now being that it should sell for $1B+, that he'll also likely have to fund almost the entirely of a new stadium to keep the team here past 2022, out of his own pocket and at the cost of about what it cost to buy the team.

For starters he'll never recoup his money in his investment as long as the team is here. He may very well be willing to do that, I hope so in fact, but to tell us what Pegula has in mind makes you (and others) a mindreader, from a distance since you don't sit next to him at lunch.

Who are you to say that?

No one here seems to consider that Pegula may be "doing all that he can" to keep the team here, and if so, then let's all hope that it is more than Wilson "did all that he could do" to keep the team here. Because if it's the same as Wilson's doing all that he could, then this team may very well be out the door in 2020.

You expect all of us to agree with you because you say so. Great intellectual interaction here.

[better days]

How does it put to rest that the team won't move? What if Pegula, who's 63, dies? Then what?

Think about what you're saying. You're saying that if Pegula manages to buy the team, with rumors now being that it should sell for $1B+, that he'll also likely have to fund almost the entirely of a new stadium to keep the team here past 2022, out of his own pocket and at the cost of about what it cost to buy the team.

For starters he'll never recoup his money in his investment as long as the team is here. He may very well be willing to do that, I hope so in fact, but to tell us what Pegula has in mind makes you (and others) a mindreader, from a distance since you don't sit next to him at lunch.

Who are you to say that?

No one here seems to consider that Pegula may be "doing all that he can" to keep the team here, and if so, then let's all hope that it is more than Wilson "did all that he could do" to keep the team here. Because if it's the same as Wilson's doing all that he could, then this team may very well be out the door in 2020.

You expect all of us to agree with you because you say so. Great intellectual interaction here.

If Pegula buys the team it puts to rest any idea that the Bills will move PERIOD.

Despite what you & Spiked Lemonade would like to see happen.

And NO Pegula won't have to finance the entire Stadium by himself.

He will get help from the County, State & the NFL to build a new Stadium.

And if he dies, he leaves behind a widow who is from Buffalo & children as well that would want to keep the Bills in Buffalo

And if the team must be sold again upon the death of Pegula, some other civic minded person would buy them & keep them in Buffalo.

[Fletch]

If Pegula buys the team it puts to rest any idea that the Bills will move PERIOD.

Thanks! I hadn't realized that Pegula made you his public relations speaker.


Despite what you & Spiked Lemonade would like to see happen.

Why stop there?

Why not say that I, he, OP, and others really want a nuclear warhead to hit Buffalo or that we'd like to see an Erie County wide anthrax attack? Or maybe that the drinking water supply for everyone be so tainted that everyone dies within days of their next exposure to it.

I mean come on, go all in.

[better days]

Thanks! I hadn't realized that Pegula made you his public relations speaker.



Why stop there?

Why not say that I, he, OP, and others really want a nuclear warhead to hit Buffalo or that we'd like to see an Erie County wide anthrax attack? Or maybe that the drinking water supply for everyone be so tainted that everyone dies within days of their next exposure to it.

I mean come on, go all in.

I think some guy from Buffalo stole your girl or guy ( not sure about which you punch bowl Spiked Lemonade drinking tools prefer) & that is the reason you have a hard on for Buffalo.

And yeah, I am Pegula's public relations speaker.

And I do my job well, because EVERYONE knows Terry Pegula will keep the Bills in Buffalo.

All thanks go to me for keeping you all informed.

[Dr. Lecter]

You are starting to try too hard on this Fletch.

The idea that Ralph's will did not define the requirements of the sale is hardly breaking news. That is contained in the trust, which has been stated time and time and time and time and time and time again. This trust is not public record.

What people have been saying, for the most part, is that the sale of the team does not necessarliy have to go to the highest bidder. Which was essentially confirmed in this article. What people have also been saying is that right now the odds of this team staying after the sale looks pretty good based on most media reports and what is known. People have brought up things like there appears to be only one bidder trying to buy the team that will move it and it looks like the group involved might not have the liquid assests to do that, based on its current structure. There is also the added issue that they will have buy out the lease and pay a re-location fee to move the team, as well as building a stadium in Toronto which would likely be with their own money (and if you state Pegula having to build a stadium would inhibit his ability to buy the team, why does that not also apply to the Toronto group?)

The simple fact is that the current lease inhibits a buyer from moving this team as much as it can and remain legal. Another fact is that there is a local person attempting to buy this team that appears to have more assests available to him than other bidders.

There is definitely no guarantee that the Bills are staying here long term. That is true. But there should be much more optimism regarding this than there was immediately after Ralph passed. The news that has came out since then has generally been good news for the Bills staying in Buffalo. I get that you are frustrated with some of the responses directed towards you. But take a step back and at least admit that the situation is nowhere near as dire as it seemed it would be 6 months ago.

There are problems Buffalo has being an NFL market, mostly the corporate dollars that most teams can get flowing into their bank account. Nobody can deny that. However, that does not mean that it can't work and that there is not reason to be cautiously optimistic. Starting a thread like this,which really does not reveal anything new and acting like it is something Earth shattering does not help your cause.

[WagonCircler]

You are starting to try too hard on this Fletch..

Starting?

[trapezeus]

Never once have I insisted that the team will move. Never once.

All I've done is to provide the reasons why from a business sense there is little hope that they won't move prior to the end of the existing lease or more likely after the out in it following the 2019 season.

Think about it, our biggest and maybe only hope is that a guy that's wealthy enough to buy the team, does so, and does so while ignoring the things that typically drive business transactions and makes a decision that potentially will lose him tens, maybe hundreds, of millions of dollars. And that that person then in the next five years or so takes it upon himself to then build a state of the art stadium that will likely cost $1B or so using primarily his own money.

Listen to yourself otherwise. You say that you're tired of "me knowing," and I don't insist that I know anything, but I put out facts and information and then use it to make my points. This is more than you or 90-some percent of other posters do. Most posters here just spew forth nonsense and idiotic comments more along the lines of what you said in that second part;



For starters you assume that I don't want to see the same things when I do. The difference between me, you, and most others here with a handful of exceptions, is that I won't look at a rock and call it a piece of gold.

I'm not an idiot, a fool, gullible, nor do I lack wisdom. Other people post here as if what they say will happen simply because over 50% agree with it. I mean what nonsense is that?

This is a forum for discussing the team. Imagine if we had a forum for discussing a business that we were in and we sat down and looked at our books and saw a balance sheet and P&L statements that revealed that we were a $1M company. But then we started talking and planning as if we were a multi-billion dollar company. Would that make sense?

There has to be some balance between reality and what we'd like to see here. Some of us enjoy discussing that, and if my posts or OPs posts, or Cincy's posts, or anyones posts bother you, then ****ing ignore them and don't respond. Why do you and others feel it necessary to insist that the rest of the world agree with you just because "that's what you want to happen?"

Well I'd like $10B worth of gold to fall from the sky and land in my front yard so that I can make a bid on the team. If I put that out there and suggested that "it's possible," there would be quite a few people laughing.

You say

So why then is that stuff off limits?

Why is it that talking about KneeJ as if all of a sudden and for no apparent reason, and without even a glimmer of a basis for change based on visible evidence, is it more fun, makes more sense, or is otherwise better conversation for everyone to talk about the team as if that's not the case? Why? I see no reason.

At the end of the day this is a message forum. I don't give a siht whether or not you or anyone else agrees with me. I'm civil with people that are the same, I offer a lot of background for the positions that I hold, and I state plainly the reasons for those positions.

In the meantime, you and your bulldozen mentality of you and other posters that only want to see the positives, spin the statements and opinions of those that you call realists. Is there anything wrong with looking at the reality of things? Apparently you and others think that there is. Why?

I know I know, things are going to be different this year. Again, did you hear what you said above.





If you look at those two things side by side what you are saying is that you will ignore reality when it's convenient for purposes of discussion.

That's fine, but honestly, is that stance supposed to be respected by intelligent people? By people that look at facts and information and go out of their way to formulate their opinions on those facts/info?

Seriously?

Let me ask you a question: Does it make sense to ignore a whole bunch of reality to discuss the team, in any aspect whatsoever? What sort of foolishness is that. But that's what you and those that side with you are suggesting here. Hey, let's all ignore facts and reality and just discuss what we want to see. Then let's all go ballistic in November when our Cinderella dreams don't come true.

Really? I mean really?

Judging by what it says on the homepage of the site this place has been here since 2002. That's going on its 12th season.

Based on what I see there are about 30-40 active posters here. That's it? Of those I can count on two hands, with a couple of fingers to spare, those that truly seem interested in discussing the team based on reality and not on their Cinderella dreams of what they want to happen.

Why aren't there more good posters? It's because the foolish nature of discussing this team amongst those that want to put on rose-colored glasses dissuade it and make the place hell for those that don't want to see things that way. Instead name-calling, telling posters that they don't really want the team to win, or that they don't want draft picks to pan out, and the laughable, that they want the team to move, etc., are what sets the tone here. Despite any evidence to suggest those things beside simply criticism, you and others continue to tell people what they believe and the mob mentality here drives that and turns it into fact.

And you see that as good posting. LOL

Don't you think that we all want to see this team return to the playoffs? No, you don't. You and others seem to believe that the harshest critics of the team want it to move, go 0-16 every season, see us draft siht players, get coaches that haven't proven anything in the NFL, or ones that have failed altogether, etc.

How sociopathic and passive-aggressive is that viewpoint?

Yeah, we're sorry that we don't see KneeJ developing after five seasons of failing to be able to adjust to the simplest of things much less the more complex ones, and for not assuming that his shortcomings aren't going to render other players less than they could be.

We're sorry that we don't have faith in a front office, including Whaley, that has failed us as fans miserably for years.

We're sorry that we don't buy into the notion that taking the role-players and proven backups of other teams and trying to turn them into impact starters here.

We're sorry that Buffalo currently has the NFL's smallest TV market and a crumbling economy largely due to state politics.

But please pardon us while we have the audacity to discuss it.

What's ridiculous in this is that you slam on my (and implicitly others') "air of knowing," but while ignoring that mote you cannot see the log in your own eye.

Seems to me that a whole lot of people here KNOW ...

That the trust for the Bills can choose to sell to a bidder that isn't necessarily the highest bidder.

That Watkins is going to be setting team rookie records.

That Bryce Brown and Dixon are going to be doing something other than simply providing the role-playing backup play that either always has in either college or pro ball.

That Manuel is going to become accurate for no apparent reason within a few more weeks.

That the rest of our draft picks are going to do much when it's been years since we've had a draft with more than two players doing much over time.

That Hackett is going to shine this season when he's never shone in his life.

That as long as we get a bunch of sacks we're actually good when it's been proven over and over again that there's more to defense than sacks.

I could go on. You guys all have this "air of knowing" regarding those things, and you want us to defer to that just because it's "what you want to happen."

Sure, that makes a world of sense.

This forum has been here for 12 years now. It has hardly any posters that make much sense. Most of you dwell in some sort of parallel universe where facts don't seem to matter. Yes, I understand hope and that we all want the team to succeed. But unlike you, myself and a few others are not willing to deny proven things and realities in the hopes that doing the same thing over and over again is going to result in something different.

We also want things to change so that they will result in different things.



You know what, great, then let's discuss that as it may be and not like you want it to be! This is the core of the problem with this team, so hearing about how great Whaley is and how he's the next up-and-coming future great GM is ridiculous. So why claim that it's the case, he's done absolutely nothing as Asst. GM or now GM to propel this team forward. His two biggest moves have been KneeJ and Watkins. KneeJ is on the cusp of becoming one of the biggest busts that this franchise has ever known, and with that as the backdrop having drafted Watkins in the manner that he has therefore becomes one of the most idiotic decisions that any GM anywhere could possibly have made.

But hey, that's off limits in your glass-slipper world.

None of us wants the team to move, but if 100% of all posters here get together and agree that Pegula's bid so much, that the trust has the ability to sell the team to someone, even if the bid is $500M, that will keep the team here, that the Buffalo economy and MSA is much better than say that of Toronto or any number of other American MSAs than it really is, doesn't make any of it true.

But you don't care about that, all you want is to be discussed what people want to happen despite the fact that most of it is ill-founded and is far from reasonable. I mean why not hope for free parking to all home games this season too and talk about it as if it's going to happen until you get to the stadium and realize that someone's there to collect your money? What's the difference? It's possible, just as possible as say Manuel becoming a gamer at QB. Actually it's more possible, the decision could be made right now to do it.

What I don't understand is that you and your ilk say that you understand these things, but then you all go apesiht late in the season like all of the glaring failures are a surprise to you. Meanwhile, those of us that are critics of the team are the mentally stable ones in the forum in November and December and our positions don't change.

There's a huge gap in logic in your position in that way. If you're not happy with the endings of seasons, then quit being happy with the circumstances created by those that have created 15 seasons of losing and quit supporting them, but most of all quit insisting that those of us that don't support them support them when you do and only cease to support them when we get your blessed approval!


1. your business sense about an owner wanting the team where it is, dismisses state and county funding which has just been demonstrated in a $130MM renovation, as part of their viability site visits in State. it dismisses that pegula actually has a vested interest in the city of buffalo in real estate, he can recoup money from a stadium build on his own land. and the anciallary connects he has to harbor center and other investments we don't know about. the guy just leased 20,000 square feet in a downtown building for the sabres and the rest of his entertainment.

so yeah, your "business people don't make stupid decisions" is weak. the bills are making money, and he would be using the bills the same way he's using the sabres to build up downtown. i doubt it's done purely from a charity standpoint. i'm pretty sure he's happy to make money on the deal.

2. i dont want only positive spin. i rag on better days all the time for being too optimistic. but it's the summer, and EJ is the wildcard. he was injured for 40% of the season last year. in the games he played he looked like "gasp" a rookie! And his numbers were average. great, legendary qbs have had his numbers their first year. qb's you've never heard of have that flamed out very fast had those numbers. So the numbers don't really say anything until we see the regular season games.

so as a guy who doesn't actually think EJ is going to get us where we want to go, i can still say, "he needs to do points 1, 2, and 3, this year to earn another year from me. he had an incomplete year last year, so i don't know how anyone can adequately judge." I have said that. and that isn't the same douchey response of calling a 2nd year qb who wants to be here and wants to be good KneeJ. Do you see the difference that one actually sounds like a fan who is rooting for the team vs someone who is all knowingly declaring it a bust. Its the same discussion, but its the tone in which its said.

You can model out past performances to guess at where he may perform, but they have to play the games. football is a game of momentum. and for young guys, the light can go on. If the game slows down for him and the team doesn't ask him to be a hero, but simply a good manager and let the run game carry us, EJ is going to get credit for pedestrian numbers and a strong runoffense, simply because he's the qb. and that's fine with me.

3. as for the general critisim of the board, it's been around for 15 years or so. there are a lot of people with a lot of views. even OP, the guy who gets the most grief with his realism isn't as all knowing as you phrase things. he calls it based on things he just saw from a game and why it's not a good thing to bet on. but you never doubt his desire for the team to win. even the people who give him crap for it.

like i said above, it is your general tone and huge responses to everyone on why you know how it will turn out. Guess what? it's turned out liek that for 14 straight years. it's hard to annoint you the genius when most of us saw it coming as well. but for the rest of us it actually hurts when they lose and the idea of losing the team seems much more remote than in years past. the info you keep posting doesn't actually defend your idea. and you've shown up regularly simply to talk about the move and that watkins sucks.

if this board is so bad with mob mentality, you should find another board. i'm sure pats fans would love to hear your commentary.

[Fletch]

You are starting to try too hard on this Fletch.

The idea that Ralph's will did not define the requirements of the sale is hardly breaking news. That is contained in the trust, which has been stated time and time and time and time and time and time again. This trust is not public record.

Correct

Then tell me why a number of people here claim to know differently? Or at least present their arguments with that as the premise?

[Fletch]

so yeah, your "business people don't make stupid decisions" is weak. the bills are making money, and he would be using the bills the same way he's using the sabres to build up downtown. i doubt it's done purely from a charity standpoint. i'm pretty sure he's happy to make money on the deal.

No, it's hardly weak.

No owner could possibly make money on a team that he buys for upwards of $1B and then later is forced to build a $1B stadium for. Not possible, again, at least not to the extent that it would ever overcome his investment in this lifetime.

You cannot talk about the team making money under Wilson who bought the team for less than the cost of a decent new car today and who owned it free-and-clear, while talking about it identically to someone just having paid, let's just say that $1.3B for it. One has no investment to overcome, one has an enormous, the biggest of all time, investments to overcome, and in the smallest TV market in the NFL.

Why do you think that Trump is now on record saying that he's not overpaying for it? He, and many other non-bidders, realize that purely from an investment standpoint it's not a good one, not in Buffalo with the purchase price of a new stadium looming.

[Fletch]

What people have been saying, for the most part, is that the sale of the team does not necessarliy have to go to the highest bidder. Which was essentially confirmed in this article.

You're right about the part about people saying that, but you're absolutely wrong about anything in this article confirming it.

Go ahead and quote the part that confirms this?

Here's what I read:

For starters, the article's title,
Ralph Wilson's will leaves no clue about sale of Bills

Most people here stop at the title which should do it in this case.


While leaving Wilson's estate in the hands of a trust, the will does not offer any specifics about the legal nature of the trust, or whether it is a charitable trust. That makes a big difference, Michigan lawyers said, because a noncharitable trust is not required to sell its assets to the highest bidder. That would mean Wilson -- who kept the Bills in Buffalo for decades when it might have been more lucrative for him to move the team -- hypothetically could have included a provision in his trust agreement that specifies that the Bills could only be sold to an owner who would keep the team in Buffalo.


Such a provision would be meaningless, however, if it were a charitable trust. Under Michigan law, trustees of a charitable trust have a duty to sell assets to the highest bidder -- and the state can intervene if they do not.


Early signs, though, indicate that Wilson's trust may not be charitable. The name spelled out in the will -- "The Ralph C. Wilson Jr. Amended and Restated Trust Agreement Dated September 20, 1978" -- does not include any language that would indicate that it's a charity of any kind.


Moreover, no charitable trust including Wilson's name was listed as of Thursday on the online registry of such organizations at the Michigan Attorney General's Office, where, by law, such charitable trusts are required to register.


It is possible that a Wilson charitable trust will file the property documents in the future, or that they already have been filed but not yet shown up in the attorney general's online system, said Linda A. Wasserman of Honigman Miller Schwartz and Cohn LLP, a leading Detroit law firm.



I don't see anything in that at all that "confirms" what you say it confirms.

There isn't anything in there that says that even if it is a non-charitable trust that the board is obligated to sell it to a party that promises to keep it in Buffalo or using whatever other criteria that the trust deems effective in determining that to their satisfaction. In other words, it could still very well be non-charitable and be sold to the highest bidder.

It even postulates about any such stipulation of being sold to such a party that would be deemed most likely to keep the team in Buffalo being "hypothetically could have included a provision."

So not sure where you get this "confirmed" stuff, it's not in there.

That's all I'm talking about here. I realize that merely putting out the facts isn't appreciated around here, but dems da facts.

So if I'm trying to hard, maybe it's because I'm bashing my own head against a wall trying to figure out why these people that you refer to cannot comprehend simple written English.

[Fletch]

You are starting to try too hard on this Fletch.

By the way, when I posted this my intent was simply to deliver some facts and help clear up some misperceptions here, a number of misperceptions here. These notions that I'm trying to stir up trouble with a simple post and some excerpts are absurd and indicative that a number of people here have some serious personality issues, perhaps diagnosable ones.

We hadn't read much at all about the actual facts prior to three or four articles, recent ones, that I posted here, several of which had been out for days with no one bothering to have posted them.

So while I think I'm doing the forum a service, a bunch of people treat it like trolling, which merely demonstrates more ignorance. Maybe the content of threads here would be better if that weren't the norm here.

And simply because the content of the pieces that I posted, which included quotes from many experts in the industry and some specifically familiar with the situation, mimic those that I posted as my own understanding really shouldn't matter. I think that's why some here are up in arms, for the same reasons that they get all emotionally charged about my statements on some players. They say it's because I want to be right or correct, but I don't give a dam about being correct. What it really boils down to is that they realize that if I am correct, then they are wrong, and they have troubles being so wrong. The same people come back here year after year after year labeling anyone that doesn't agree with them as trolls and hurling vitriol without abandon. Clearly at the end of every season they're been proven wrong and while they should have no credibility left, their narcissism kicks into an even higher gear and they go into Chinese commercial laundry wash/rinse/repeat mode.

As to this trust issue, I do not understand why anyone would get so upset about a simple article, or several simple articles, UNLESS, those articles state facts that mirror what a persona non grata said. And let's cut to the chase, that's really what it's all about. Again, I couldn't care less if I'm wrong. I call it as I see it and state the basis for my calling it. Maybe I just do better homework than others if I am correct more than they are. Ever think of that?