Toronto Bid Rejected

[SpikedLemonade]

Exclusive: Toronto group bidding on Bills allowed to submit higher first bid, and must provide greater assurance it would not relocate team, sources say
The Bon Jovi/Toronto group seeking to buy the Buffalo Bills has been allowed a first-bid do-over.


In one of a bundle of surprising new developments in this melodrama, Sun Media has learned the Toronto trio is expected on Tuesday to resubmit a higher, non-binding initial bid for the Bills — probably between $1 billion and $1.1 billion.



The group also has been asked to submit greater assurances it plans to keep the Bills long-term in the Buffalo area.



Sources have told Sun Media the Bon Jovi/Toronto group’s first bid actually was rejected last week by Morgan Stanley, the investment bank conducting the sale of the NFL club for the trust of Ralph Wilson.



Until or unless they resubmit, they are out.



The reasons? The Toronto group’s bid was uncompetitively low and, perhaps as damningly, too much doubt existed within the trust, Morgan Stanley and that duo’s law firm regarding the group’s newly adopted intention to keep the NFL team in Western New York, sources say....

http://blogs.canoe.ca/krykslants/nfl/exclusive-toronto-group-bidding-on-bills-allowed-to-submit-higher-first-bid-and-must-provide-greater-assurance-it-would-not-relocate-team-sources-say/

[jimmifli]

Wow. Definitely sounds like keeping the team in Buffalo is a qualifying factor (I wonder what the IRS thinks of that?). The low numbers of bidders, with only one out of town bidder hinted that might be the case. Now the only out of town bid gets shot through the heart.

Great news.

[stuckincincy]

What a show biz stunt.

Jovi et al gets to sashay around, get his name in the press.

[Dr. Lecter]

Wow. Definitely sounds like keeping the team in Buffalo is a qualifying factor (I wonder what the IRS thinks of that?). The low numbers of bidders, with only one out of town bidder hinted that might be the case. Now the only out of town bid gets shot through the heart.

Great news.


If that is the case, that also means Ralph did do something to keep the team here after he died.


Hmmmmmmm.......

[Skooby]

There must be a clause in there that forces some level of assurance of the Bills remaining in WNY. I also guess that JBJ letter didn't away the trust because press stuff is fluff.

[Dr. Who]

"A whole lot of you here need to read this!"

[gebobs]

Wow. Definitely sounds like keeping the team in Buffalo is a qualifying factor (I wonder what the IRS thinks of that?). The low numbers of bidders, with only one out of town bidder hinted that might be the case. Now the only out of town bid gets shot through the heart.

Great news.

Why would the IRS care?

[WagonCircler]

Where's Felch's loud ass? It's seems that this:

The reasons? The Toronto group’s bid was uncompetitively low and, perhaps as damningly, too much doubt existed within the trust, Morgan Stanley and that duo’s law firm regarding the group’s newly adopted intention to keep the NFL team in Western New York, sources say.

The latter is the most significant indication yet that a failure to provide convincing assurance of keeping the 55-year-old franchise in the Buffalo area is a potential bid-breaker in this sale, and all because of the Bills’ restrictive lease at Ralph Wilson Stadium.

If the Toronto group’s amended bid is still deemed financially insufficient, or if their non-relocation assurances fall significantly short again, its bid is dead. Otherwise, Morgan Stanley will invite the group into the final phase of the sale process, along with Terry Pegula, Donald Trump and any other qualifying late-comers the bank might yet recruit....

...would ABSOLUTELY indicate that keeping the team in WNY is a MAJOR part of the conditions of sale.

And also that these guys don't have the cash to compete.

Maybe Bon Jovi and partners should join forces with Chrissy Hynde.

You, know--PRETENDERS.

[SpikedLemonade]

Morgan Stanley is going to have to beg Trump and BJ to stay in this process otherwise Pegula can buy this team for under a billion.

If people believe Trump is a poser, he will not put in a bid when they become binding.

If BJ's bid is dead (which the article suggests it is and why BJ wrote that letter), why would they submit a binding bid?

There very well may be only one binding bidder and that would be Pegula.

He can bid much lower when the bids become binding.

So in the end, there will have been only one serious owner willing to keep the team in Buffalo.

I guess the news that Buffalo is in the midst of an economic renaissance is a secret.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

Laus Deo

[Dr. Who]

Morgan Stanley is going to have to beg Trump and BJ to stay in this process otherwise Pegula can buy this team for under a billion.

If people believe Trump is a poser, he will not put in a bid when they become binding.

If BJ's bid is dead (which the article suggests it is and why BJ wrote that letter), why would they submit a binding bid?

There very well may be only one binding bidder and that would be Pegula.

He can bid much lower when the bids become binding.

So in the end, there will have been only one serious owner willing to keep the team in Buffalo.

I guess the news that Buffalo is in the midst of an economic renaissance is a secret.

Really, all we need is one. And Pegula doesn't agree with you. He's seriously betting on the city. Doesn't cost you anything to be a cynic.

[Yasgur's Farm]

A source says when Bon Jovi wrote his letter to Buffalonians, he was under the belief his group’s bid was toast. The letter was intended to be a face-saver for him, nothing more — just an attempt to get on record that he would have kept the team in Buffalo had his group’s bid won.

[WagonCircler]

No, it just means the nobody out there is dumb enough to bring a knife to fight Terry P's Nuke Powered Aircraft Carrier.

And at the end of this, the city you mock will still have an NFL team, and you'll have the Argos.

Pathetic.

[WagonCircler]

A source says when Bon Jovi wrote his letter to Buffalonians, he was under the belief his group’s bid was toast. The letter was intended to be a face-saver for him, nothing more — just an attempt to get on record that he would have kept the team in Buffalo had his group’s bid won.

This occurred to me when I read the letter. It seemed like one of those "I'm going to rehab to reevaluate my life" letters.

[jimmifli]

Why would the IRS care?
They get the capital gains on the sale price. Overly restrictive qualifications would lead to the asset being sold for less than a fair market price, and they would want the trust to pay tax on a fair market price not the below market price it was sold for.

Given the current valuations, that doesn't seem like much of a concern, but public investigations on things like this are a great way to get your name in the paper and build a career.

[Buffalogic]

When Ralph was old and people were hating him it was a common thought that there was no plan for the team after his death. That was really funny. The bills are his baby he wasn't just going to let them shrivel away. Pegula is the new owner and all is well.

I do kind of miss the Salem act though.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

This thread has too many wagoncirclers in it. :D

[Yasgur's Farm]

The team’s uber-strict lease of Ralph Wilson Stadium, and an accompanying non-relocation agreement (NRA) also signed with the county and state, has indeed proved integral to this process. The lease runs through 2022, and is virtually unbreakable except for a one-time out in 2020 for a $28.4-million penalty.
These legal documents furthermore prevent the team from being sold to a new owner “who, to the Bills’ knowledge, has an intention to relocate, transfer or otherwise move the team” before 2023. Similarly, during the life of the lease the Bills owner cannot even hold a preliminary discussion about building a replacement stadium that would open before 2023.
It is in these areas that the trust, Morgan Stanley and the law firm advising both — Proskauer Rose — had issues with the Toronto group. The lease and NRA empower Erie County or the State of New York, or both, to go to court to block the sale of the Bills to an aggregation intent on premature relocation.

[Bill Cody]

Morgan Stanley is going to have to beg Trump and BJ to stay in this process otherwise Pegula can buy this team for under a billion.

If people believe Trump is a poser, he will not put in a bid when they become binding.

If BJ's bid is dead (which the article suggests it is and why BJ wrote that letter), why would they submit a binding bid?

There very well may be only one binding bidder and that would be Pegula.

He can bid much lower when the bids become binding.

So in the end, there will have been only one serious owner willing to keep the team in Buffalo.

I guess the news that Buffalo is in the midst of an economic renaissance is a secret.

I do think Trump is a poser. His recent comments that he thought his odds of getting the team as very low indicate he was never serious. If Peg turns out to the sole real bidder and gets the team at a discount this is very good news- gives Peg more cash to invest in a stadium

[OpIv37]

When Ralph was old and people were hating him it was a common thought that there was no plan for the team after his death. That was really funny. The bills are his baby he wasn't just going to let them shrivel away. Pegula is the new owner and all is well.

I do kind of miss the Salem act though.

If there was a plan, why didn't he just say that? What was the benefit to keeping it secret?

This is certainly a positive development. I would never trust the Bon Jovi group. They'll say what they have to now, but when the lease is up, they'll just make unreasonable stadium demands from the state/county and use it as an excuse to leave. If nothing else, with Rogers involved they'd probably play 2 games a year in Toronto.

That being said, I won't be convinced that this team isn't moving until there are shovels in the ground on a new stadium that is either owned by the new owner outright or involves some iron-clad lease with the county.

[Bill Cody]

If that is the case, that also means Ralph did do something to keep the team here after he died.


Hmmmmmmm.......

I think this is about the lease agreement nothing else. The trust has a fiduciary responsibility to abide by the terms of the lease. But I really don't see why it would be so hard for the Toronto group to pile enough BS to satisfy Morgan Stanley that they intend to stay. Morgan Stanley could care less either way, they just don't want to get sued by the county after the fact if the team does move in 6 years.

[WagonCircler]

I think this is about the lease agreement nothing else. The trust has a fiduciary responsibility to abide by the terms of the lease. But I really don't see why it would be so hard for the Toronto group to pile enough BS to satisfy Morgan Stanley that they intend to stay. Morgan Stanley could care less either way, they just don't want to get sued by the county after the fact if the team does move in 6 years.

Yes, but the lease was written to accommodate Ralph's wishes and was designed to do exactly what it's doing.

[SpikedLemonade]

If Peg turns out to the sole real bidder and gets the team at a discount this is very good news- gives Peg more cash to invest in a stadium

Or it gives Pegula the power to say I was the only one willing to spend the money to keep the team in Buffalo so now:

(1) Government -- you now pay for the vast majority of a new stadium

(2) Local Businesses -- you now get off your asses and commit to suites at decent prices

(3) Fans -- you now get off your wallets and pay the prices that other NFL teams pay.

Pegula becomes beyond powerful knowing he is/was the only one willing to keep the Bills in Buffalo.

As long as he is not arrested or something happens to him, it should work out OK.

[Dr. Lecter]

You know Spiked, for all the time you have spent complaining that Ralph was doing to nothing to keep the Bills in Buffalo after he died, you should be happy that it looks they are staying instead of using this opportunity to endlessly bash the area.

[Bill Cody]

Yes, but the lease was written to accommodate Ralph's wishes and was designed to do exactly what it's doing.

If that's what you want to believe great. It was a business deal plain and simple. The county demanded those assurances in exchange for paying for some infrastructure.

[Bill Cody]

Or it gives Pegula the power to say I was the only one willing to spend the money to keep the team in Buffalo so now:

(1) Government -- you now pay for the vast majority of a new stadium

(2) Local Businesses -- you now get off your asses and commit to suites at decent prices

(3) Fans -- you now get off your wallets and pay the prices that other NFL teams pay.

Pegula becomes beyond powerful knowing he is/was the only one willing to keep the Bills in Buffalo.

As long as he is not arrested or something happens to him, it should work out OK.

If Peg can get the government to pony up for any part of the stadium using any perceived leverage he has (I personally don't think he has that much in today's political environment) then more power to him. As for 2 and 3 those things need to happen regardless, not top dollar but businesses and fans will need to dig a little deeper

[Goobylal]

Where's Felch's loud ass? It's seems that this:

The reasons? The Toronto group’s bid was uncompetitively low and, perhaps as damningly, too much doubt existed within the trust, Morgan Stanley and that duo’s law firm regarding the group’s newly adopted intention to keep the NFL team in Western New York, sources say.

The latter is the most significant indication yet that a failure to provide convincing assurance of keeping the 55-year-old franchise in the Buffalo area is a potential bid-breaker in this sale, and all because of the Bills’ restrictive lease at Ralph Wilson Stadium.

If the Toronto group’s amended bid is still deemed financially insufficient, or if their non-relocation assurances fall significantly short again, its bid is dead. Otherwise, Morgan Stanley will invite the group into the final phase of the sale process, along with Terry Pegula, Donald Trump and any other qualifying late-comers the bank might yet recruit....

...would ABSOLUTELY indicate that keeping the team in WNY is a MAJOR part of the conditions of sale.

And also that these guys don't have the cash to compete.

Maybe Bon Jovi and partners should join forces with Chrissy Hynde.

You, know--PRETENDERS.
BJ is enough of a pretender on his own.

[Yasgur's Farm]

More Pegula fuel...
http://bills.buffalonews.com/2014/08/05/bon-jovi-group-continues-sputter-pegulas-pulling-away-bills-race/

Two sources connected to Jon Bon Jovi's group told The Buffalo News there has been serious soul-searching within.
Some of Bon Jovi's influential NFL friends -- he has close relationships with New England Patriots owner Robert Kraft and Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones -- have advised him bail on his attempted purchase to save face.

Bon Jovi's open letter printed in Sunday's edition of The News (http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/bills-nfl/in-letter-to-bills-fans-bon-jovi-vows-commitment-to-western-new-york-20140803) was considered a public-relations disaster. One representative from another ownership group called it "ridiculous." One of Bon Jovi's allies said it was "stupid." Fans were offended because the rah-rah letter offered no guarantees.

[casdhf]

Ralph is cheap.

[OpIv37]

Ralph is cheap.
This changes NOTHING about Ralph's proven cheapness.

[swiper]

Who says the fans don't wield any power? It's pretty amazing he was kind of shamed out of the race by the fans who made it clear he wasn't welcomed.

[Night Train]

I guess he was living on a prayer.

[OpIv37]

Who says the fans don't wield any power? It's pretty amazing he was kind of shamed out of the race by the fans who made it clear he wasn't welcomed.
I don't think the fans would have cared if he made it clear that he would have kept the team in Buffalo instead of making it so obvious that he wanted to move them.

[justasportsfan]

If there was a plan, why didn't he just say that? it's no ones business until it goes on sale?Do people normally make their last will and testament or estate public :idunno:


What was the benefit to keeping it secret?

whats the benefit of making it public? :idunno:

[WagonCircler]

Still no posts from Felch?

**crickets**

[gebobs]

If there was a plan, why didn't he just say that? What was the benefit to keeping it secret?
Cuz then we be all...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cQ_5V0M0_qk/UCvJUgMXPzI/AAAAAAAAAro/TaMOTir_Ozk/s1600/Party-7.jpg

[Typ0]

He did say it. In one of his bumbling press conferences several years ago (I believe it was one of the two he held about Moolarkey offering him the job or after he bolted) he said "it's been taken care of ... the team will sell to the highest bidder".


If there was a plan, why didn't he just say that? What was the benefit to keeping it secret?

This is certainly a positive development. I would never trust the Bon Jovi group. They'll say what they have to now, but when the lease is up, they'll just make unreasonable stadium demands from the state/county and use it as an excuse to leave. If nothing else, with Rogers involved they'd probably play 2 games a year in Toronto.

That being said, I won't be convinced that this team isn't moving until there are shovels in the ground on a new stadium that is either owned by the new owner outright or involves some iron-clad lease with the county.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I say the less Pegula pays for the Bills the better by the way.

Forbes listed them at worth 870 Million. If he gets them for a price slightly higher great!

It will give him more money to improve the team.

[OpIv37]

it's no ones business until it goes on sale?Do people normally make their last will and testament or estate public :idunno:

whats the benefit of making it public? :idunno:
Cementing his legacy and discouraging people who want to move the team from even considering it.

[kishoph]

Still no posts from Felch?

**crickets**

When he's done crying, he'll make something up to put a negative spin on it, as sure as the sun rises and sets.

[Buffalogic]

If there was a plan, why didn't he just say that? What was the benefit to keeping it secret?

This is certainly a positive development. I would never trust the Bon Jovi group. They'll say what they have to now, but when the lease is up, they'll just make unreasonable stadium demands from the state/county and use it as an excuse to leave. If nothing else, with Rogers involved they'd probably play 2 games a year in Toronto.

That being said, I won't be convinced that this team isn't moving until there are shovels in the ground on a new stadium that is either owned by the new owner outright or involves some iron-clad lease with the county.A statement would have been comforting, but I mean it was obvious. No 700 million dollar
enterprise is going to float around without a plan for every situation. Especially one with that kind of magnitude and a 90 year old owner.

Bon Jovi is probably a really good guy and a very likeable person, but he underestimated the love for the bills. He probably thought that he could smile and glad hand for six years and then snake the team to Toronto but bills fans sniffed that out from 150 miles away.

[trapezeus]

Op, i would think ralph kept it a secret because it was good for bsuiness. would have you kept going to the games during the 2014 knowing the team was going to stay.

ralph made a lot of money year over year on the bills. depending on who you talk to and if you believe them, he paid himself out in large salaries to himself. so if you want the model that they have perfected to work, you need a certain number of seats filled each year and expenses to stay in a certain range. if you knew the team was going to stay no matter what, you wouldn't have gotten to the modelled number of attendees to make it a sure thing. which in turn means you have to try and be a winner like the other teams.

He did right by himself and his family. and in the end, if pegula gets the team and he continues to build in buffalo, he'll always be kind to ralph and the fans will always remember that the big one we needed ralph to win was how he handled this part of his business. not long stretches of losses in the 70's and 2000's

[OpIv37]

trap, if what you're saying is true, then Ralph essentially extorted us into paying for an inferior product by threatening us with the possibility of moving so he and his family could get rich.

That's pretty ****ed up.

Couple that with 14 horrible years and maybe 12 good seasons out of 54, and his record is ****ty.

Ralph did one great thing in 1960 in bringing us a team. He may have done another one in keeping the team here. In between, it was 54 years of failure that made him rich and the fans footed the bill.

[trapezeus]

and those of you looking for fletch, he's probably in a thread writing how much watkins sucks because if you extrapolate a 5 year career on his two series in the preseason game, the kid isn't going to catch a single ball!!! oh my gosh, the math said so!

and i have to say, it's a shame i put spiked and fletch on ignore. i am sure their backtracking is wonderful. however, we do have to get to a closed deal. so i will await that before i feel relieved.

one other thing about giving ralph a lot of credit for his plan. he's had been really old for about 15 years. and really, pegula only became an option in 2011. and no one else is really there. the lease was yr to yr there for a year prior to signing in 2012-13. So his plan wasn't exactly iron clad. we got lucky they did get it signed before his passing and that there is a local guy ready to go.

that being said, i believe other people who requested the packet but did not bid, would have made that move. i really think the jacobs large buffalo land hold would have had them thinking about unwinding casino exposure and get the team. but seeing that they d idn't have to and that they can still make money off a potential stadium deal, it may still work out for them in the end.

[YardRat]

Everybody and anybody doubting that Ralph did everything reasonable to assure the team stayed in Buffalo, and/or doubted that keeping the team here was a priority of the trust, can now STFU.

Game over. Thanks for playing.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Now the only out of town bid gets shot through the heart.
...and Bon Jovi is to blame.

[BertSquirtgum]

Where's that douche bag Fletch?

[better days]

trap, if what you're saying is true, then Ralph essentially extorted us into paying for an inferior product by threatening us with the possibility of moving so he and his family could get rich.

That's pretty ****ed up.

Couple that with 14 horrible years and maybe 12 good seasons out of 54, and his record is ****ty.

Ralph did one great thing in 1960 in bringing us a team. He may have done another one in keeping the team here. In between, it was 54 years of failure that made him rich and the fans footed the bill.

1964 AFL CHAMPIONSHIP

1965 AFL CHAMPIONSHIP

1966 AFL runner up to the Champion KC Chiefs

FOUR Super Bowls in a ROW.

[BLeonard]

Op, i would think ralph kept it a secret because it was good for bsuiness. would have you kept going to the games during the 2014 knowing the team was going to stay.

ralph made a lot of money year over year on the bills. depending on who you talk to and if you believe them, he paid himself out in large salaries to himself. so if you want the model that they have perfected to work, you need a certain number of seats filled each year and expenses to stay in a certain range. if you knew the team was going to stay no matter what, you wouldn't have gotten to the modelled number of attendees to make it a sure thing. which in turn means you have to try and be a winner like the other teams.

He did right by himself and his family. and in the end, if pegula gets the team and he continues to build in buffalo, he'll always be kind to ralph and the fans will always remember that the big one we needed ralph to win was how he handled this part of his business. not long stretches of losses in the 70's and 2000's

I've said pretty much the same thing in other posts.

Why didn't Wilson simply say that there was a plan (if there is one, which I'll touch on) there's one word to explain why he didn't say anything publicly: Fear.

My opinion? He felt the fear of the team leaving would help drive ticket sales. Hell, how many have out and out said "well, at least we have a team."

For a guy that is supposedly so adamant against relocation, he brought the Bills moving up a lot. When the Bills needed a new stadium in the late 60's, he outright threatened to move the team to Seattle.

I also don't think it's a coincidence that, the two times that the lease have been up for renewal, the last football season that the lease was covered under, the Bills made significant noise in the offseson:

1998: Traded for Rob Johnson and signed Doug Flutie.
2012: Signed Mario Williams

Maybe it's me, but making those moves right before going into negotiations to have Erie County and NYS give you more money is more than a coincidence.


trap, if what you're saying is true, then Ralph essentially extorted us into paying for an inferior product by threatening us with the possibility of moving so he and his family could get rich.

That's pretty ****ed up.

Couple that with 14 horrible years and maybe 12 good seasons out of 54, and his record is ****ty.

Ralph did one great thing in 1960 in bringing us a team. He may have done another one in keeping the team here. In between, it was 54 years of failure that made him rich and the fans footed the bill.

Keep in mind, Buffalo wasn't even Wilson's first choice... Miami was. My guess is, that is the reason Wilson didn't like the Dolphins. The losing streak might have helped fuel the hate, but I'd bet that the city of Miami turning him down was a bigger motivator for him.

Finally, as for this "plan" to keep the team in WNY. There is nothing, zilch, zero in the trust that Wilson couldn't have executed while he was alive. If he wanted to make sure that the Bills remained, he could have sold the team to Kelly and his people, Pegula, Golisano, or whoever years ago, with little to no fanfare, just like the Jaguars and Browns have been sold in recent years.

Instead, we're now going through this glorified dog and pony show where deadlines can be moved, extended, etc and the nondisclosure agreement can apparently be violated with no recourse whatsoever. For whatever reason, the trust thinks that this whole "process" will get them higher offers. It might, it might not. But, if us everyday fans can read on financial websites like Forbes and see what the bidders are worth and how high they can go, you can bet that those involved know it as well.

In short, if Wilson's #1 priority was keeping the team in WNY, that could have been done much more effectively while he was alive and given fans a sense of relief years ago.

The process that has occurred over the past 14 years and the process following Wilson's death tells me that keeping the team in WNY wasn't the #1 priority.

As for Bon Jovi, I'm guessing that, if he were aligned with Pegula, people would love him and there would be radio stations in WNY with "all Bon Jovi weekends."

In short, the people dislike who Bon Jovi's money men are, as opposed to really disliking him personally.

-Bill

[SpikedLemonade]

Why didn't Wilson simply say that there was a plan (if there is one, which I'll touch on) there's one word to explain why he didn't say anything publicly: Fear.

My opinion? He felt the fear of the team leaving would help drive ticket sales. Hell, how many have out and out said "well, at least we have a team."

Fear has worked this year as evidenced by the increase in season ticket sales after his death.

[Mace]

Can't agree Wilson was worried. He could have made more money over time had he sold them long ago.

I don't think Wilson felt he needed prove anything after keeping them here. He did so 55 years. Everything looks conclusive he meant for them to stay here by now. He's dead. He may have played business games to wrangle money, that's what business people do. We weren't often much good, you have to be insane to think he had more fun making less money on a team he could have sold and purposely not winning Super Bowls so he could own a crap team until he died because he could make soooo much more money after he was dead selling a crap team than a good one because his focus was on being a dead guy in a hot tub full of starlets and ticking off Western New York.

He wasn't a good owner. He's dead. He meant them to stay here. That's a very nice thing to do for people you always hated and meant to screw.

Why does anyone assume he had to say anything more after keeping them here 55 years, and maybe if he didn't say anything, his team would get the fierce loyalty they have now gotten, and may well get an owner who loves them just as much and means to keep them here to past dollars and cents.

[OpIv37]

1964 AFL CHAMPIONSHIP

1965 AFL CHAMPIONSHIP

1966 AFL runner up to the Champion KC Chiefs

FOUR Super Bowls in a ROW.

Still a dismal overall record. He died with his team holding the longest active playoff drought in the NFL.

[BLeonard]

Fear has worked this year as evidenced by the increase in season ticket sales after his death.

Some looking deeper into the situation could believe that it is the exact same reason the Trust seems to be desperate to keep the Bon Jovi (Toronto) group in the running as long as possible.

Would anyone be following this story nearly as much if they were sure that all bidders were going to keep the team in WNY? My guess is no.

Like I said, the Trust seems to want the dog and pony show... If that wrangles a few extra bucks out of Pegula in the end, that's just icing on the cake.


Can't agree Wilson was worried. He could have made more money over time had he sold them long ago.

Who's talking about Wilson being worried? The "fear" I'm referring to is the fear that the fans have about the team leaving.

While Wilson ultimately never did move the team, like I said, for a guy that was apparently so against teams moving, he never did come out and just say "I will not move the Bills from WNY." he did, however, threaten to move the team to Seattle in the late 60's and anytime the discussion of relocation came up, he responded in ways like "Don't worry... For now"... Ways that made fans worry.

IMO, while I'm happy that Wilson never moved the Bills, I think he gets way too much credit from some for that. Hell, many of the owners in the league have never moved their teams... You don't hear Dallas fans saying "Yeah, we've only won one playoff game in the past 15 years and Jerry Jones isn't a good owner, but at least he hasn't moved the team."

-Bill

[Dr. Lecter]

trap, if what you're saying is true, then Ralph essentially extorted us into paying for an inferior product by threatening us with the possibility of moving so he and his family could get rich.

That's pretty ****ed up.

Couple that with 14 horrible years and maybe 12 good seasons out of 54, and his record is ****ty.

Ralph did one great thing in 1960 in bringing us a team. He may have done another one in keeping the team here. In between, it was 54 years of failure that made him rich and the fans footed the bill.

Extorting? Threats to move?

I must have missed those threats. And the extortion.

Why you or anybody else thinks that he should have revealed to the public what he was doing with his public assets is beyond me. Trusts like the one he left are very large and complex. There is no reason why he should reveal the details to satisfy you, me or anybody else.

For somebody who preaches that a business should be run without caring about public reaction (i.e. Sirius when they fired the assclown from Opie and Anthony), you certainly sing a different tune here.

There was no extortion. There was no threat to move.

Both are the highest forms of hyperbole, at best.

Call him a ****ty owner. That is one thing.

But he had no obligation to share what he had in the trust to make people feel warm and fuzzy

[YardRat]

Selling the team prior to his death wouldn't have guaranteed the team staying anymore than it does now, without an already signed iron-clad lease, which there was none.

The man kept the team here for over 5 decades. He passed still being owner of the team. He did everything he could to assure that the team would stay in WNY, which should be obvious to everyone by now. He did all this, and maximized the take for his family after his death. Mission accomplished on all counts.

Get a grip. Quit pissing on a man's grave that obviously cared about keeping the team in it's current location.

'But...but...Why didn't he just tell me before?' Because he didn't have to, and shouldn't have to. Actions speak louder than words. Stop whining and accept the gesture for what it is.

The threat of moving a team will always...ALWAYS...be at least some part of the equation, regardless of the circumstances. If someone like Pegs were to buy the team AND build his own stadium on his own land there will always be the boogeyman under the bed. 'Well, it's not like it's a publicly funded stadium with a lease, so really he could pull up stakes and leave anytime he wants'. 'Well, yeah, there's a lease, but there's an out clause in 5 years'. 'Well, sure the relocation fee is a lot of money, but to somebody with big bucks they'd sure be willing to pay it so they could move it to Toronto, LA or London and immediately make the team worth a gazillion dollars more than it is now'.

Jesus...get a ****ing clue.

[BLeonard]

Extorting? Threats to move?

I must have missed those threats. And the extortion.

http://www.si.com/vault/1969/01/20/542599/warts-love-and-dreams-in-buffalo



"I've warned the city that work must commence on a new stadium of some kind before the end of 1969 or else I'll be forced to move the team elsewhere."


Another telling quote:



"Buffalonians will support a loser as well as any city, and our attendance the past two years has proved it. Despite a losing 1967 season we sold 22,000 season tickets this year, and I'd expect sales to go as high as 45,000 with a new stadium. The city's weather is no worse than a number of other big-league towns, although it does get a lot of snow after the 15th of November—when it doesn't really matter."


So, maybe that's why the Bills have usually been out of the playoff hunt before Thanksgiving all these years... According to Wilson, after the 15th of November, "it doesn't really matter."

http://buffalowins.com/features/cant-blame/why-you-cant-blame-ralph-wilson-for-the-bills-in-toronto-series.html


Relocation was more subtly hinted at, in much the same sense that a mob goon subtly hints at impending violence by cracking his knuckles and glaring at you, in 1998 when the Bills’ stadium lease was set to expire. Thankfully, Flutiemania happened and the luxury boxes and club seats necessary to secure a lease extension were sold.


The team has claimed all along that the initiative was about generating additional revenue and expanding a fanbase, and that relocation isn’t on the table. Honestly, what’s a 92-year-old owner of a football team in an economically flailing market to do? Revenue-sharing agreements be damned, Ralph Wilson keeps crying about money, or his lack thereof. Small-market team and all that, you know. He had no choice but to sell games to the highest bidder, right?

It didn’t help that instead of throwing water on the fire of relocation rumors, Ralph added a couple more logs and doused them with lighter fluid. “Hey, I can’t speculate what’s going to happen in the future. But don’t worry. Don’t worry right now. Does that answer your questions?”

Actually, Ralph, it didn’t. We’re sort of panicking now.

An opinion piece, but highlights the history of the subject of Wilson using the threat of relocation to his advantage.

-Bill

[YardRat]

he never did come out and just say "I will not move the Bills from WNY."

Yes, he did, and I provided a link to the quote several months ago. Keep holding your hands over your ears and screaming 'NA-NA-NA-NA-NA', though.

[BLeonard]

The threat of moving a team will always...ALWAYS...be at least some part of the equation, regardless of the circumstances. If someone like Pegs were to buy the team AND build his own stadium on his own land there will always be the boogeyman under the bed. 'Well, it's not like it's a publicly funded stadium with a lease, so really he could pull up stakes and leave anytime he wants'. 'Well, yeah, there's a lease, but there's an out clause in 5 years'. 'Well, sure the relocation fee is a lot of money, but to somebody with big bucks they'd sure be willing to pay it so they could move it to Toronto, LA or London and immediately make the team worth a gazillion dollars more than it is now'.

Here's the thing, though... There are 31 other teams in the league... You don't hear about any of them relocating nearly as much as the Bills. Whispers about Jacksonville, the Rams, Raiders, Chargers and Vikings (until they got a new stadium deal), but nothing to the extent of the talks of the Bills relocating.... And none of those teams have been talking about it for the better part of 15 years.

-Bill

[Mace]

Who's talking about Wilson being worried? The "fear" I'm referring to is the fear that the fans have about the team leaving.

While Wilson ultimately never did move the team, like I said, for a guy that was apparently so against teams moving, he never did come out and just say "I will not move the Bills from WNY." he did, however, threaten to move the team to Seattle in the late 60's and anytime the discussion of relocation came up, he responded in ways like "Don't worry... For now"... Ways that made fans worry.

IMO, while I'm happy that Wilson never moved the Bills, I think he gets way too much credit from some for that. Hell, many of the owners in the league have never moved their teams... You don't hear Dallas fans saying "Yeah, we've only won one playoff game in the past 15 years and Jerry Jones isn't a good owner, but at least he hasn't moved the team."

-Bill

Fear is kind of a byproduct of worry B., no matter which side it comes from. By now you know Spiked has his thoughts, and which side it comes from. I understand what you are saying. You think it's cheesy the team is working a few extra bucks. Honestly, that's Morgan Stanley's job too to squeeze Pegula, Pegula knows it too. It's Pegula's job to squeeze Morgan Stanley.

But flat out, he doesn't get "way too much credit" for not moving the team. We still have one, and this entire discussion would be moot if we didn't and he had. He deserves every credit, we have a team for you to debate.

Dallas fans take having a team for granted. Buffalo just isn't Dallas. It's not comparable. Many of the owners in the league have indeed not moved their teams and they are not subject to NY state tax laws. Dallas fans are not happy with their team, and have no fear or worry about losing them, Dallas Cowboys are not going anywhere for their lifetimes with that stadium. Not part of their equation. New England is not going anywhere, the Jersey Jets and Giants, Green Bay in their small market, they aren't us, this wouldn't even be a thread if we were.

As I said, he didn't come out and say don't worry because he didn't have to. We should worry, we need to, we are a smaller market. He didn't sell the team, it would not have made sense for him to say we aren't leaving evermore, there is no value in it. Instead, he built restrictive provisions into it so the best local minded owner would go for it and it would stay here, reviving some passion.

Oh he deserves every credit. Pegula knows it too, he's already overbid and knows it. Doesn't care or he would not have.

There's going to come a time soon, where people are forced to admit Wilson kept the team here deftly, without saying so, but doesn't have to, because he's dead.

[BLeonard]

Yes, he did, and I provided a link to the quote several months ago. Keep holding your hands over your ears and screaming 'NA-NA-NA-NA-NA', though.

Please find that, because I'd love to see it... I've seen things such as "I hope" or "I don't want to," but never have seen "I won't."

"I hope," "I don't want to," and things like "I can’t speculate what’s going to happen in the future. But don’t worry. Don’t worry right now" are far cries from "I won't."

-Bill

[BLeonard]

Fear is kind of a byproduct of worry B., no matter which side it comes from. By now you know Spiked has his thoughts, and which side it comes from. I understand what you are saying. You think it's cheesy the team is working a few extra bucks. Honestly, that's Morgan Stanley's job too to squeeze Pegula, Pegula knows it too. It's Pegula's job to squeeze Morgan Stanley.

No, Morgan Stanley's job is to evaluate the bids and it's the Trust's job to determine who they are selling the team to. Trying to drag it out to get their dog and pony show, when it's pretty clear to all involved where everyone stands tells me that this isn't simply about keeping the team in WNY... It's about getting the dog and pony show.

For the record, I'm not sold on Pegula being the end-all, be-all as far as owners is concerned, so I'm not just saying "sell to Pegula" here. I'm simply using the names we know. If we know that the Toronto group can't beat Pegula, you can damn well bet that the Trust, Pegula and the Toronto Group know it as well.


But flat out, he doesn't get "way too much credit" for not moving the team. We still have one, and this entire discussion would be moot if we didn't and he had. He deserves every credit, we have a team for you to debate.

Like I said, in Dallas, Jerry Jones doesn't get a pass for the Cowboys being a ****ty team, simply because he hasn't moved the team. 30 other owners don't get a pass when they field ****ty teams for long periods of time. Ralph shouldn't get a pass, either



Dallas fans take having a team for granted. Buffalo just isn't Dallas. It's not comparable. Many of the owners in the league have indeed not moved their teams and they are not subject to NY state tax laws. Dallas fans are not happy with their team, and have no fear or worry about losing them, Dallas Cowboys are not going anywhere for their lifetimes with that stadium. Not part of their equation. New England is not going anywhere, the Jersey Jets and Giants, Green Bay in their small market, they aren't us, this wouldn't even be a thread if we were.

Which is kind of the point. After 50 plus years, Bills fans should be able to take having a team for granted. The cloud of relocation shouldn't be hanging over our heads (or any fan of an NFL team, for that matter).



As I said, he didn't come out and say don't worry because he didn't have to. We should worry, we need to, we are a smaller market.

Actually, he did come out and say "Don't worry." But the way he worded it, by saying "Hey, I can’t speculate what’s going to happen in the future. But don’t worry. Don’t worry right now" makes many normal people start to do exactly that... Especially given Wilson's history of threatening to relocate, as I showed in earlier posts.

I hate the "small market" excuse. Green Bay is a smaller market, Pittsburgh is a smaller market, Indianapolis is a smaller market. You don't hear about these teams moving.

Using the NFL's blackout rules, Toronto is part of the Bills' market.



He didn't sell the team, it would not have made sense for him to say we aren't leaving evermore, there is no value in it. Instead, he built restrictive provisions into it so the best local minded owner would go for it and it would stay here, reviving some passion.

Who's to say it wasn't the NYS and Erie County that demanded that those restrictive provisions be put into the lease? Sure, the Bills agreed to it, but that doesn't mean that they were the ones to suggest the provisions.



There's going to come a time soon, where people are forced to admit Wilson kept the team here deftly, without saying so, but doesn't have to, because he's dead.

I don't think that anyone is saying that Wilson didn't keep the tem in WNY, or wanted to keep them in WNY after his passing.

I can only speak for myself, but what I'm saying is, it wasn't the #1 priority, or it would have been done in a way that avoided the dog and pony show that's going on currently with the Trust.

When Wayne Weaver sold the Jaguars, he said things like "someone that has the same passion for the NFL, same passion for football in Jacksonville as we do" and "There is not a doubt in my mind that this team will be in Jacksonville."

With Wilson, all we ever got was "I can’t speculate what’s going to happen in the future. But don’t worry. Don’t worry right now."

I can't speak for anyone else, but Wilson saying something along the lines of what Weaver said would have went a long way with me... I'm betting others feel the same.

-Bill

[BertSquirtgum]

I can't believe people are still crying about Ralph not selling the team before he died or disclosing his plan for after he passes. Get the **** over it. My god what is wrong with you ****ing guys? Are you actually women?

[Mace]

No, Morgan Stanley's job is to evaluate the bids and it's the Trust's job to determine who they are selling the team to. Trying to drag it out to get their dog and pony show, when it's pretty clear to all involved where everyone stands tells me that this isn't simply about keeping the team in WNY... It's about getting the dog and pony show.

For the record, I'm not sold on Pegula being the end-all, be-all as far as owners is concerned, so I'm not just saying "sell to Pegula" here. I'm simply using the names we know. If we know that the Toronto group can't beat Pegula, you can damn well bet that the Trust, Pegula and the Toronto Group know it as well.



Like I said, in Dallas, Jerry Jones doesn't get a pass for the Cowboys being a ****ty team, simply because he hasn't moved the team. 30 other owners don't get a pass when they field ****ty teams for long periods of time. Ralph shouldn't get a pass, either



Which is kind of the point. After 50 plus years, Bills fans should be able to take having a team for granted. The cloud of relocation shouldn't be hanging over our heads (or any fan of an NFL team, for that matter).



Actually, he did come out and say "Don't worry." But the way he worded it, by saying "Hey, I can’t speculate what’s going to happen in the future. But don’t worry. Don’t worry right now" makes many normal people start to do exactly that... Especially given Wilson's history of threatening to relocate, as I showed in earlier posts.

I hate the "small market" excuse. Green Bay is a smaller market, Pittsburgh is a smaller market, Indianapolis is a smaller market. You don't hear about these teams moving.

Using the NFL's blackout rules, Toronto is part of the Bills' market.



Who's to say it wasn't the NYS and Erie County that demanded that those restrictive provisions be put into the lease? Sure, the Bills agreed to it, but that doesn't mean that they were the ones to suggest the provisions.



I don't think that anyone is saying that Wilson didn't keep the tem in WNY, or wanted to keep them in WNY after his passing.

I can only speak for myself, but what I'm saying is, it wasn't the #1 priority, or it would have been done in a way that avoided the dog and pony show that's going on currently with the Trust.

When Wayne Weaver sold the Jaguars, he said things like "someone that has the same passion for the NFL, same passion for football in Jacksonville as we do" and "There is not a doubt in my mind that this team will be in Jacksonville."

With Wilson, all we ever got was "I can’t speculate what’s going to happen in the future. But don’t worry. Don’t worry right now."

I can't speak for anyone else, but Wilson saying something along the lines of what Weaver said would have went a long way with me... I'm betting others feel the same.

-Bill

No, I just don't agree. As a matter of record it is Morgan Stanleys job to broker the best sale the can on BEHALF of the trust, before the Trust decides who to sell it to.

No, I just don't agree. After 50 years we are not guaranteed to make less money and the owner needs deal with spending a billion to make less money. That's up to the guy spending over a billion to finance your angst. It's not guaranteed as a business transaction. Can't even imagine what you think we are "guaranteed" from someone else spending their money to guarantee us anything. Come on now, B.

Said it repeatedly, will say it again, he threatened to move, never did, proof is in the pudding.

Green Bay is owned by the community, Pittsburgh by the Rooney's, Indy by the Irsay's, you cannot really think this is irrelevant unless you are not thinking it through.

Who is to say County and State didn't make it restrictive ? B., They were running on an easy relocation lease the last years, you have to know this, you cannot think Wilson was an evil genius then suddenly stop being one before starting up again after he was dead. That's not even rational.

You can speak for anyone you like, but there's going to come a time soon when you will need acknowledge the obvious.

I think I can speak for a lot of people too in saying this stuff is mostly ridiculous and overwrought since it doesn't seem we are going anywhere and Wilson despisers are just trying to get in their last shots before being stuck knowing better.

[OpIv37]

Extorting? Threats to move?

I must have missed those threats. And the extortion.

Why you or anybody else thinks that he should have revealed to the public what he was doing with his public assets is beyond me. Trusts like the one he left are very large and complex. There is no reason why he should reveal the details to satisfy you, me or anybody else.

For somebody who preaches that a business should be run without caring about public reaction (i.e. Sirius when they fired the assclown from Opie and Anthony), you certainly sing a different tune here.

There was no extortion. There was no threat to move.

Both are the highest forms of hyperbole, at best.

Call him a ****ty owner. That is one thing.

But he had no obligation to share what he had in the trust to make people feel warm and fuzzy
That's what trap said while complimenting Ralph. I merely responded with what it means if he is right. I don't know if he is or not.

And this has no correlation with Opie and Anthony whatsoever. My point with OnA is that companies should stand behind their people instead of telling them to be "edgy" then firing them for crossing some imaginary line. In Ralph's case, supposedly he cares about his legacy and keeping the team in Buffalo. There were many things he could have done before he died: sold to a local owner, publicized his plans, etc. If nothing else, he could have lived out his life as a hero instead of the guy who capped 54 years of mediocrity on running an organization with an epic playoff drought.

[OpIv37]

I can't believe people are still crying about Ralph not selling the team before he died or disclosing his plan for after he passes. Get the **** over it. My god what is wrong with you ****ing guys? Are you actually women?

I can't believe people are so willing to forget how poorly this team fared under Ralph's ownership simply because he's been dead for three months and the team hasn't moved yet.

[Mace]

I can't believe people are so willing to forget how poorly this team fared under Ralph's ownership simply because he's been dead for three months and the team hasn't moved yet.

Insults me to say I forgot what I've lived with for decades. They still haven't moved yet, Wilson is dead, let go of him.

[OpIv37]

Insults me to say I forgot what I've lived with for decades. They still haven't moved yet, Wilson is dead, let go of him.

Alive or dead he gave us years- no, decades- of crap. He did one great thing in 1960 and the was mediocre at best for the next 54 years. Yet some of you are far too willing to give him credit for simply not undoing the one good thing he ever did.

[BLeonard]

No, I just don't agree. As a matter of record it is Morgan Stanleys job to broker the best sale the can on BEHALF of the trust, before the Trust decides who to sell it to.

Thta's fine. But you said it is "Morgan Stanley's job too to squeeze Pegula"... That's not the case. Morgan Stanley looks at the bids and tells the Trust which one is the best. That's it.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-source-trump-advances-bills-sale-process



The bidding process is unsealed, meaning Wilson's estate will have the ability to ask groups to increase their bids.


So, if it's anyone's job to "squeeze Pegula," that would be the members of the Trust. Morgan Stanley might suggest that to the Trust, but it is not their job to.



No, I just don't agree. After 50 years we are not guaranteed to make less money and the owner needs deal with spending a billion to make less money. That's up to the guy spending over a billion to finance your angst. It's not guaranteed as a business transaction. Can't even imagine what you think we are "guaranteed" from someone else spending their money to guarantee us anything. Come on now, B.

Didn't say we were guaranteed... I said we should be. I'm guessing to many, this "relocation" talk is getting pretty fuggin old... None of the other teams have to deal with this **** on a constant basis... Bills fans shouldn't either.



Said it repeatedly, will say it again, he threatened to move, never did, proof is in the pudding.

What proof? All's I'm saying is, it's pretty hypocritical of a person to be all anti-relocation, yet use the threat of relocation to get what he wants, whenever it suits him.



Green Bay is owned by the community, Pittsburgh by the Rooney's, Indy by the Irsay's, you cannot really think this is irrelevant unless you are not thinking it through.

So, the Rooney family and the Irsay family are better owners than Wilson? Jacksonville is a small market, are owned by Shahid Khan and tarp half of their stadium on a yearly basis... Yet, they don't have nearly as much talk about relocating as the Bills do. Also, IIRC, the Irsays moved the Colts from Baltimore.

The point is, there are plenty of small markets in the league... Yet, there seemed to only be one that used it as an excuse and constantly cried poor...



Who is to say County and State didn't make it restrictive ? B., They were running on an easy relocation lease the last years, you have to know this, you cannot think Wilson was an evil genius then suddenly stop being one before starting up again after he was dead. That's not even rational.

So, if Wilson and the Bills were the ones that insisted these restrictions be put in place on the current lease, why didn't they insist on them in the last one (1998)?

Looking at it from the prospective, my guess is that NYS and Erie county said "Hey, Ralph, you're over 90 years old and since we have no idea what your plans are for after your death, we're gonna need some guarantees that the team is gonna be here so that we can recoup all of this money we're about to give you for stadium renovations."



You can speak for anyone you like, but there's going to come a time soon when you will need acknowledge the obvious.

The obvious is already apparent. All's I've said is, if Wilson's priority was to keep the team in WNY after his passing, it could have been done before he died without the dog and pony show.



I think I can speak for a lot of people too in saying this stuff is mostly ridiculous and overwrought since it doesn't seem we are going anywhere and Wilson despisers are just trying to get in their last shots before being stuck knowing better.

So, if Wilson's priority was to keep the team in WNY, why isn't that in black and white somewhere, repeated for WNY and the world to see?

Hell, why was Bon Jovi and the Toronto group even allowed to submit a bid, let alone be allowed to resubmit one, if there are questions about their intention of keeping the team in WNY?

I don't really see anyone on here vilifying Wilson, to be honest. I'm certainly not. I just don't believe that the primary purpose of the trust is to ensure the team's future in WNY.

Is it a factor? Sure. But, I don't think it's the only or even the main factor. If it were, based on what we know about the bidder's finances, Pegula would likely be the winner anyway. Why keep stringing the Toronto group (and the Bills fans that are worried about them winning) along?

-Bill

[Mace]

Alive or dead he gave us years- no, decades- of crap. He did one great thing in 1960 and the was mediocre at best for the next 54 years. Yet some of you are far too willing to give him credit for simply not undoing the one good thing he ever did.

Granted, except for the early 90's. They weren't mediocre.

[Mace]

Thta's fine. But you said it is "Morgan Stanley's job too to squeeze Pegula"... That's not the case. Morgan Stanley looks at the bids and tells the Trust which one is the best. That's it.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-source-trump-advances-bills-sale-process



So, if it's anyone's job to "squeeze Pegula," that would be the members of the Trust. Morgan Stanley might suggest that to the Trust, but it is not their job to.



Didn't say we were guaranteed... I said we should be. I'm guessing to many, this "relocation" talk is getting pretty fuggin old... None of the other teams have to deal with this **** on a constant basis... Bills fans shouldn't either.



What proof? All's I'm saying is, it's pretty hypocritical of a person to be all anti-relocation, yet use the threat of relocation to get what he wants, whenever it suits him.



So, the Rooney family and the Irsay family are better owners than Wilson? Jacksonville is a small market, are owned by Shahid Khan and tarp half of their stadium on a yearly basis... Yet, they don't have nearly as much talk about relocating as the Bills do. Also, IIRC, the Irsays moved the Colts from Baltimore.

The point is, there are plenty of small markets in the league... Yet, there seemed to only be one that used it as an excuse and constantly cried poor...



So, if Wilson and the Bills were the ones that insisted these restrictions be put in place on the current lease, why didn't they insist on them in the last one (1998)?

Looking at it from the prospective, my guess is that NYS and Erie county said "Hey, Ralph, you're over 90 years old and since we have no idea what your plans are for after your death, we're gonna need some guarantees that the team is gonna be here so that we can recoup all of this money we're about to give you for stadium renovations."



The obvious is already apparent. All's I've said is, if Wilson's priority was to keep the team in WNY after his passing, it could have been done before he died without the dog and pony show.



So, if Wilson's priority was to keep the team in WNY, why isn't that in black and white somewhere, repeated for WNY and the world to see?

Hell, why was Bon Jovi and the Toronto group even allowed to submit a bid, let alone be allowed to resubmit one, if there are questions about their intention of keeping the team in WNY?

I don't really see anyone on here vilifying Wilson, to be honest. I'm certainly not. I just don't believe that the primary purpose of the trust is to ensure the team's future in WNY.

Is it a factor? Sure. But, I don't think it's the only or even the main factor. If it were, based on what we know about the bidder's finances, Pegula would likely be the winner anyway. Why keep stringing the Toronto group (and the Bills fans that are worried about them winning) along?

-Bill

Morgan Stanley "evaluates" bids, if you were right, they'd have sold it already. They haven't, you are incorrect, they are soliciting more bids, because they haven't had a bestest one already made ? They already had a a high bid yes ? But ? Um ?

Isn't their job to seek highest bidder, incorrect. There already is one yes ? It is their job to broker the best sale by terms of the trust we don't know. That's just how it is or they wouldn't be so easy on bidding. Evaluating most lucrative bid is not Morgan Stanley's job ? B. that's ridiculous. You know it already.

Same thing I said earlier, some teams don't need worry about relocating in family owned organizations or big markets, not sure what you missed.

B. you have to realize the last lease didn't expire in 1998. It's 2014 ?

Why exactly do you think Wilson needed be accountable to you, or anyone past his actions to tell you what he was doing instead of doing it ? He didn't and wasn't, it upsets people but it's true.

Let it go, they aren't going anywhere and it's looking like we may get an owner who loves them like we do.

You're wasting your angst in this case.

[BLeonard]

Morgan Stanley "evaluates" bids, if you were right, they'd have sold it already. They haven't, you are incorrect, they are soliciting more bids, because they haven't had a bestest one already made ? They already had a a high bid yes ? But ? Um ?

Isn't their job to seek highest bidder, incorrect. There already is one yes ? It is their job to broker the best sale by terms of the trust we don't know. That's just how it is or they wouldn't be so easy on bidding. Evaluating most lucrative bid is not Morgan Stanley's job ? B. that's ridiculous. You know it already.

Sold it to who? None of the bids submitted are binding. They're soliciting more bids because it looks bad for them if they can only get 3 non-binding bids, one of which they rejected (Bon Jovi's) for an NFL franchise. That's why they're practically bending over backwards for Bon Jovi (and presumably Golisano). In the end, the Trust decides, not Morgan Stanley. So, if anyone will be "squeezing" anyone, it will be the trust doing the squeezing.



Same thing I said earlier, some teams don't need worry about relocating in family owned organizations or big markets, not sure what you missed.

Yet, you say the Colts don't need to worry about relocating, because they are owned by the Irsays? Try googling "Baltimore Colts"... Maybe then it'll make sense to you.

The point is, NO franchise's fans, whether it be a small market or a large market, whether it is owned by a family or a single owner, should have a constant cloud of relocation hanging over their heads, the way Bills fans have since the team's founding and increasingly since the late 1990's.



B. you have to realize the last lease didn't expire in 1998. It's 2014 ?

http://memecrunch.com/meme/1MLM2/you-serious-clark/image.png

The lease BEFORE the current one signed in 2012... That one that went from 1998-2012. If Wilson and the Bills were the ones that were so adamant on having all of these restrictions from moving the team added into the current lease (the 2012 one), why was none of that present in the lease before the current one (the 1998 one)? Or, did Ralph just know he was gonna live to be 95...?



Why exactly do you think Wilson needed be accountable to you, or anyone past his actions to tell you what he was doing instead of doing it ? He didn't and wasn't, it upsets people but it's true.

I never said he did. All's I'm saying is, if he had made his plans clear, we wouldn't have had all of this talk about relocation and worrying about who's gonna buy the team for the past decade and a half (at least).

When you go to a doctor, would you rather him say "You're doing great" or "I don't know about the future, but don't worry right now"...? The doctor doesn't have to say "You're doing great," but it probably sets your mind at a lot more ease than if he says "I don't know about the future, but don't worry right now."



Let it go, they aren't going anywhere and it's looking like we may get an owner who loves them like we do.

I hope that's the case.

But, they're allowing a group that is known to have a desire to move the team to Canada not only submit a bid, but submit a new, revised bid, after the deadline... Why?



You're wasting your angst in this case.

You tell people to "let it go," yet, you keep replying...

Sorry if it's an inconvenience to some that some posters still have concerns and reservations about the team's future in WNY... Most of which could have been alleviated by the previous owner simply telling everyone that the team's future in WNY was secure after his passing.

-Bill

[Dr. Lecter]

http://www.si.com/vault/1969/01/20/542599/warts-love-and-dreams-in-buffalo



Yeah - he did back in 1969. That is not when or what Op was talking about.

Where is the time he did that recently?

As for the rest all he was doing not revealing all of his private information. Nothing in there was a threat to move

[Dr. Lecter]

Here's the thing, though... There are 31 other teams in the league... You don't hear about any of them relocating nearly as much as the Bills. Whispers about Jacksonville, the Rams, Raiders, Chargers and Vikings (until they got a new stadium deal), but nothing to the extent of the talks of the Bills relocating.... And none of those teams have been talking about it for the better part of 15 years.

-Bill

Bull****.

We hear more because we are Bills fans.

Nationally there have been more talk about the Vikings, Rams, Jaguars and especially the Raiders moving for the last 20 years. The Raiders are always talking about it.
You are flat out wrong on the facts here

[Dr. Lecter]

That's what trap said while complimenting Ralph. I merely responded with what it means if he is right. I don't know if he is or not.

And this has no correlation with Opie and Anthony whatsoever. My point with OnA is that companies should stand behind their people instead of telling them to be "edgy" then firing them for crossing some imaginary line. In Ralph's case, supposedly he cares about his legacy and keeping the team in Buffalo. There were many things he could have done before he died: sold to a local owner, publicized his plans, etc. If nothing else, he could have lived out his life as a hero instead of the guy who capped 54 years of mediocrity on running an organization with an epic playoff drought.

It has everything to do with it.

You always say that companies should not cave into controversy and that they should let the market decide. In essence, a company can't extort people. They can either support them or not. There is no "extortion"

And it sure as hell appears as if Trap is right. Certainly you don't think that a privately help business should be required to expose their private plans to make people happy. do you?

Because that is what you are saying here.

[Dr. Lecter]

Alive or dead he gave us years- no, decades- of crap. He did one great thing in 1960 and the was mediocre at best for the next 54 years. Yet some of you are far too willing to give him credit for simply not undoing the one good thing he ever did.

And some are bashing him for something that he had no obligation to do. Criticize him for the things he deserves criticism for.


Don't be like the Republicans are with Obama.

[YardRat]

5 of the original eight teams from the AFL moved their teams. Yes, NY moving to a different state counts.
Denver threatened to move prior to Mile High being built.
Kraft threatened to move from the Boston area in the late '90s.

I could probably find a case for every team in the league, except for maybe Green Bay, that has used relocation for leverage for a new stadium in their past if I really wanted to waste the time and dig.

Get over it.

[Night Train]

I can't believe people are so willing to forget how poorly this team fared under Ralph's ownership simply because he's been dead for three months and the team hasn't moved yet.


How could anyone possibly forget with your redundant posts for the last 7 years ?

We are all aware of the historical folly, regarding this team.

Doesn't mean we can't take a fresh view of the future each year. We get the past and wish to bury it.

That's the nature of fan message boards.

[BertSquirtgum]

I can't believe people are so willing to forget how poorly this team fared under Ralph's ownership simply because he's been dead for three months and the team hasn't moved yet.

I don't care. Its in the past. Its not normal or healthy to sit and wallow in the past. I just want the bills to stay in Western New york and it looks like we have the best chance of that happening.

[YardRat]

Actually, the NFL threatened to pull the Packers from Green Bay and move them permanently to Milwaukee if a new stadium wasn't built.

[trapezeus]

trap, if what you're saying is true, then Ralph essentially extorted us into paying for an inferior product by threatening us with the possibility of moving so he and his family could get rich.

That's pretty ****ed up.

Couple that with 14 horrible years and maybe 12 good seasons out of 54, and his record is ****ty.

Ralph did one great thing in 1960 in bringing us a team. He may have done another one in keeping the team here. In between, it was 54 years of failure that made him rich and the fans footed the bill.

but that's business. he minimized expense, created demand and sold his tickets.

i agree, he brought the team here and at the end, he seemingly made every effort to keep it here. but to say he was well thought out, the lease was only just signed and they did have a year there without his lease when the guy was in his 90's. i think it was important to him, but it isn't like he made it a priority until very late.

it's not worth complaining over, but it's also not worth giving him undue credit.

[OpIv37]

It has everything to do with it.

You always say that companies should not cave into controversy and that they should let the market decide. In essence, a company can't extort people. They can either support them or not. There is no "extortion"

And it sure as hell appears as if Trap is right. Certainly you don't think that a privately help business should be required to expose their private plans to make people happy. do you?

Because that is what you are saying here.

You have a few problems here. First, there is a sense of loyalty to a sports team that doesn't exist with a company, that goes both ways. The community cares about the team and Ralph (supposedly) cares about his legacy in the community. Companies don't have that.

Second, in the case of Antihnh being fired, it had nothing to do with what the community wanted because there never was any backlash. The company fired him so fast that there wasn't even time for anyone to react. And the reality is that there probably wouldn't have been any backlash because the people who pay attention to Anthony already know he says stuff like that. The people likely to complain never would have heard about it.

[Dr. Lecter]

And is his legacy more about what he says or what he does?

[THATHURMANATOR]

Guys WHO CARES??

Lets just hope Pegula can pull this off!!!!

[OpIv37]

I don't care. Its in the past. Its not normal or healthy to sit and wallow in the past. I just want the bills to stay in Western New york and it looks like we have the best chance of that happening.

Except it's not the past. It's the present. The current state of the team is a direct result of many, many years of piss-poor management. We will be paying the price for some time to come.

[OpIv37]

Guys WHO CARES??

Lets just hope Pegula can pull this off!!!!
I care.

I love this team and it kills me to see so much praise heaped on the guy directly reponsible for this team's poor performance.

[WagonCircler]

I care.

I love this team and it kills me to see so much praise heaped on the guy directly reponsible for this team's poor performance.

I think you're being overly sensitive and confuse defense with praise. And even more than that, the praise is rooted in the hope that the old guy softened up in his later years.

The only important thing now is that were a fraction of an inch from a totally fresh start with a guy who, if he didn't exist, we'd have to invent.

Seriously, think about life before Pegula. Think about this current situation without Pegula. This guy is exactly what we would dream about if he didn't already exist. A guy with ridiculous, "F_U money" who is so solid that even sleaze balls like Jerry Jones are telling their boy Bon Jovi to give it up.

The future is bright. There will be a post-Ralph era with the NFL in Buffalo. Take a deep, cleansing breath and enjoy it.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

i seriously don't know what we are even arguing about. this is ridiculous

[OpIv37]

Like I said before, I'll believe there is a future for the Bills in Buffalo when there are shovels in the ground for a new stadium that's either owned by the new owner outright or is backed by some iron-clad lease on a publicly financed facility. Not until.

Right now, all the momentum is behind Pegula and those who want to move the team are long shots at best. But too many things have gone wrong for this team. It's not over til it's over.

[WagonCircler]

Like I said before, I'll believe there is a future for the Bills in Buffalo when there are shovels in the ground for a new stadium that's either owned by the new owner outright or is backed by some iron-clad lease on a publicly financed facility. Not until.

Right now, all the momentum is behind Pegula and those who want to move the team are long shots at best. But too many things have gone wrong for this team. It's not over til it's over.

I certainly understand that. But to me, this is more 1990 AFC Championship game than Super Bowl XXV. This is 51-3 and Bon Jovi is the Raiders.

It's totally against my nature and experience to relax and enjoy this, but this situation seems to get better by he minute.

[justasportsfan]

Cementing his legacy and discouraging people who want to move the team from even considering it.

has anything changed?

Based on what we've heard no LA group is part of the bidding process. Trump and Pegula will keep the bills in buffalo. Whether or not the plan was made public, Bon Jovi's group would have tried to buy the bills.Ralphs legacy is already cemented no matter . So keeping it a secret has not affected anything.

[Bill Cody]

it's no ones business until it goes on sale?Do people normally make their last will and testament or estate public :idunno:

whats the benefit of making it public? :idunno:

In a sense the fans are the "stockholders" of the Bills, without the fans there would be no business. In fact Wilson would have died a wealthy but not uber rich guy to little fanfare. Obviously it's just a tad different when you own a pro football team in which many thousands have both a financial and an emotional stake in. This isn't like Aunt Margaret keeping it a secret that she's leaving her ruby ring to Suzie instead of Emily.

[better days]

Still a dismal overall record. He died with his team holding the longest active playoff drought in the NFL.

I will grant you that the last 14 years have been dismal, but aside from the 7 years I named, there have been other good years where the Bills were fun to watch.

The Bills never went from being the very worst to the very best, there were years where they just fell short such as the year they lost to the Titans on that illegal play.

[trapezeus]

to be fair to ralph, selling the team before hand would have had his family taxed twice. once on the sale and once on estate taxes. there was no way he could sell the team (if extracting maximum value is important).

aside from that ralph's legacy is shaping up as the man who brought football to buffalo and kept football in buffalo, but the inbetween had a bunch of deep valleys and a few very exciting peaks. Bud Adams didn't have that legacy. Art Modell didn't have that legacy. for men in his generation of ownership, ralph probably had more success and kept the team where it was.

but to give him credit for having a solid plan when the lease was signed 2012-2013 (and that seems to be the real deterent thus far). i am presuming this based on the 15-30 bidders dropping out and the general discussion being that they can not even consider a move. I would think the language in the trust is probably less rigid. "will you move the team" "no" "ok, it's yours". that would suffice for doing the due diligence. but when the questions are "will you move the team?" "no" "great, because the lease says its $400MM and the one out clause is $28MM and the league approved this, so i guess they kind of want the team here." it's a lot more stringent.

i'm for giving ralph credit for sticking with the town, but in terms of building winners, he esentially gave up after donahoe. and he is guilty of keeping yes men and running football people out of town for what mostly seems like ego issues. and he did it to polian, he did it to butler, he did it to old coaches, he did it to good players. that meddlesome streak can't be discounted when you want to assess his football life. and where people failed miserably, but were family, he protected them. he promoted them, he gave them more chances.

that's how i look at his legacy and we just need to see the sale close to be able to make a final assessment on his time with the bills as owner.

[Novacane]

I can't believe people are still crying about Ralph not selling the team before he died or disclosing his plan for after he passes. Get the **** over it. My god what is wrong with you ****ing guys? Are you actually women?


That's an insult to women. Most women I know don't ***** as much as some people from this board.

[WagonCircler]

The Bills never went from being the very worst to the very best, there were years where they just fell short such as the year they lost to the Titans on that illegal play.

I don't know about that. When Polian started, we were coming off consecutive 2-14 seasons. Within 3 years we were playing the Bengals for the AFC Championship. That's a really fast turnaround by NFL standards.

[better days]

I don't know about that. When Polian started, we were coming off consecutive 2-14 seasons. Within 3 years we were playing the Bengals for the AFC Championship. That's a really fast turnaround by NFL standards.

Agreed, it was fast, but not worst to first.

My point was aside from the years I posted there were other years the Bills were fun to watch.

They were not horrible for their entire history as Op said, just the last 14, which does seem like a lifetime.

[OpIv37]

Agreed, it was fast, but not worst to first.

My point was aside from the years I posted there were other years the Bills were fun to watch.

They were not horrible for their entire history as Op said, just the last 14, which does seem like a lifetime.
They were pretty horrible for most of the 70's and early 80's too. If you look at Ralph's overall body of work, there are far more bad years than good ones.

[better days]

They were pretty horrible for most of the 70's and early 80's too. If you look at Ralph's overall body of work, there are far more bad years than good ones.

Yeah, I had season tickets in the 70's & early 80's until I moved to Fla.

Most of that time was bad, but I do remember the Chuck Knox years as being fun.

We used to go to Shennagans after the games & Knox & a number of players would be there as well.

Fun times

[WagonCircler]

I've said this a million times. Ralph's biggest problem was that he would rather lose working with people he was personally comfortable with than win with people who he didn't like or who challenged him.

He ran off Saban twice over money issues. Same for Knox. And he ran off Polian and Butler over personality clashes. Ralph wanted cronies and yes men like MacGroder, Brandon and Littman around him, and that's not how you win.

[coastal]

By some accounts the sale of the Bills has become a circus.

Ralph's creation to be sure.

With reports of perhaps JBJ being advised to back out, it appears Pegula might be bidding against himself. Perhaps Trump stays in the game, but when bids become binding.. we will all find out how serious he is.

It will be interesting to watch it all unfold, especially if Pegs gets the Bills on the cheap.

With reportedly only 3 bidders, I'm wondering if red flags are being raised for the IRS. It would be funny if the IRS jumps all over his estate.

the other interesting storyline for me is if Pega does become the new owner, how is a new stadium dealt with.

i can't see Cuomo rolling over for the fracking king... not one bit:

[WagonCircler]

Yup.

Coastal = Felch.

[Fletch]

By some accounts the sale of the Bills has become a circus.

Ralph's creation to be sure.

With reports of perhaps JBJ being advised to back out, it appears Pegula might be bidding against himself. Perhaps Trump stays in the game, but when bids become binding.. we will all find out how serious he is.

It will be interesting to watch it all unfold, especially if Pegs gets the Bills on the cheap.

With reportedly only 3 bidders, I'm wondering if red flags are being raised for the IRS. It would be funny if the IRS jumps all over his estate.

the other interesting storyline for me is if Pega does become the new owner, how is a new stadium dealt with.

i can't see Cuomo rolling over for the fracking king... not one bit:

I agree with everything you wrote there except the part about the IRS, for now. It's clear what has driven bidders away, namely what experts in trusts and estate sales have already said, a ridiculously restrictive NDA.

Having said that, it feeds into what you said about this media circus being Ralph's creation. Instead of just selling the team to a Pegula type and being done with it, he thought that he could put his desire to have the same degree of control in the instructions to the trust. He may have largely succeeded in doing that, but then obvious has reared its head, that there aren't a lot of interested parties out there that want to buy a business off of someone and then be told what they can do with it or how they can run it after the sale. Especially true for these multi-billionaire types that don't like taking direction from anyone, particularly dead people.

[Dr. Lecter]

They were pretty horrible for most of the 70's and early 80's too. If you look at Ralph's overall body of work, there are far more bad years than good ones.


The early 80's were fine and pretty good.

The mid 80s made the current teams look like the current Patriots

[Dr. Lecter]

to be fair to ralph, selling the team before hand would have had his family taxed twice. once on the sale and once on estate taxes. there was no way he could sell the team (if extracting maximum value is important).



If he sold the team and left the proceeds to Mary, he would have only been taxed once.

[Dr. Lecter]

By some accounts the sale of the Bills has become a circus.

Ralph's creation to be sure.

With reports of perhaps JBJ being advised to back out, it appears Pegula might be bidding against himself. Perhaps Trump stays in the game, but when bids become binding.. we will all find out how serious he is.

It will be interesting to watch it all unfold, especially if Pegs gets the Bills on the cheap.

With reportedly only 3 bidders, I'm wondering if red flags are being raised for the IRS. It would be funny if the IRS jumps all over his estate.

the other interesting storyline for me is if Pega does become the new owner, how is a new stadium dealt with.

i can't see Cuomo rolling over for the fracking king... not one bit:

Circus? So there is a lease that makes the team hard to move and that makes the sale a circus? And is Ralph's creation?

The IRS won't care as long as the team sells for fair market value - probably at least 900 million or close to it.

As for the stadium, Pegula is the one person who might put significant resources towards a stadium downtown to tie in with the rest of his toys.

There is a lot of things to reasonably criticize Ralph about. But, from most accounts, how he left this team with the trust and lease appears to be in a way that would make the team hard or impossible to move.

Giving him **** for trying to make the team stay here, especially from some of the same people who criticized him for NOT doing anything to make they stay reminds of the Republicans suing Obama for not implementing the mandate on ACA. The person did what they wanted and they are still *****ing.

[better days]

If he sold the team and left the proceeds to Mary, he would have only been taxed once.

I don't think so.

The sale of the Bills would have been taxed while Ralph was alive, a HUGE Capital gains tax, then his estate which includes the money from the sale of the Bills would have been taxed again after Ralph died.

[Dr. Lecter]

I don't think so.

The sale of the Bills would have been taxed while Ralph was alive, a HUGE Capital gains tax, then his estate which includes the money from the sale of the Bills would have been taxed again after Ralph died.

There is no estate tax if proceeds are left to a spouse.

[coastal]

Yup.

Coastal = Felch.
Don't you have a bar to put out of business?

[better days]

There is no estate tax if proceeds are left to a spouse.

But the proceeds are not being left to his wife alone.

[coastal]

Circus? So there is a lease that makes the team hard to move and that makes the sale a circus? only 2 legitimate bids on an NFL franchise? so Morgan Stanley is having to manufacture a bidding war that is never going to happen.

The business world I'm sure is laughing at this.



And is Ralph's creation?this isn't Michael Jackson's estate.


The IRS won't care as long as the team sells for fair market value - probably at least 900 million or close to it.dont you think having a limited amount of bidders says something about either the rules of the trust or limits The current lease sets on the saleable value of the franchise. I'm curious as to how the IRS vid going to view that.


As for the stadium, Pegula is the one person who might put significant resources towards a stadium downtown to tie in with the rest of his toys. I hope so. That would be way cool. Even wagon couldn't ruin that. One caveat... just don't do it with tax monies.


There is a lot of things to reasonably criticize Ralph about. But, from most accounts, how he left this team with the trust and lease appears to be in a way that would make the team hard or impossible to move.it appears so. Still wondering how the IRS might view that.


Giving him **** for trying to make the team stay here, especially from some of the same people who criticized him for NOT doing anything to make they stay reminds of the Republicans suing Obama for not implementing the mandate on ACA. The person did what they wanted and they are still *****ing.im not *****ing.

[SpikedLemonade]

only 2 legitimate bids on an NFL franchise? so Morgan Stanley is having to manufacture a bidding war that is never going to happen.

The business world I'm sure is laughing at this.

Probably only one legitimate bid since JBJ will probably back out and most don't see Trump as a serious bid.

Yes, it is a NFL franchise but it is located in Buffalo.

Not everyone knows about the economic renaissance/miracle that is happening in Buffalo.

Like Ralph's succession plans, its a secret. Shhhhhhhhh!

[WagonCircler]

only 2 legitimate bids on an NFL franchise? so Morgan Stanley is having to manufacture a bidding war that is never going to happen.

Yes, dumbass. Everyone and their mother knew that Pegula, who has more money than 99.9999% of the people on Earth, is willing to pay up to $1.5 BIL to get the team. He's willing to overpay because he has **** money and doesn't give a ****.

So why, if you're Pabst Man, would you bother to bid against a guy like that, especially when it's abundantly clear that moving the team would be as difficult as moving Niagara Falls to California?

Just STFU and go be a miserable dick somewhere else.

[trapezeus]

Yes, dumbass. Everyone and their mother knew that Pegula, who has more money than 99.9999% of the people on Earth, is willing to pay up to $1.5 BIL to get the team. He's willing to overpay because he has **** money and doesn't give a ****.

So why, if you're Pabst Man, would you bother to bid against a guy like that, especially when it's abundantly clear that moving the team would be as difficult as moving Niagara Falls to California?

Just STFU and go be a miserable dick somewhere else.

wagon, i'm with you in general on wanting the team here and pegula to be the bid, but i don't think money is what is turning off the other bidders.

the first bid was non-binding. you could offer the moon, but its non binding. just to scare everyone else away. it's almost like showing one card when the flop comes out to see what others at the table think about your high pair. they either think you're bluffing or have the high pair to beat them, or have something even better. If you were at that table and you could see the next card for no money, why wouldn't you put out a non-binding offer?

the fact no one really got into the ring says something about the lease stipulations/trust rules or financials. but if the financials were terrible, you wouldn't have gotten 2 bids to stay in buffalo. and you wouldn't have gotten over market value for all 3 bids.

as for the manufacturing a bidding war, MS is simply advising on this deal. they'll make their fee no matter what. it's a large transaction with probably a small team of people. so the profit will be fantastic whether it goes to the 3rd bidder or the top bidder. The fact it came in higher than the Fair Market Value makes me think MS is satisfied. they just have to present the packet.

and i also think the trust has the option to extend the deadline and MS probably knows there is 1 or 2 more bidders that wanted to take the risk that the deadline would be extended. they gambled on losing the team if the trust declined to extend. but it seems to have worked. i would think that's just part of the business.

[coastal]

Yes, dumbass. Everyone and their mother knew that Pegula, who has more money than 99.9999% of the people on Earth, is willing to pay up to $1.5 BIL to get the team. He's willing to overpay because he has **** money and doesn't give a ****.

So why, if you're Pabst Man, would you bother to bid against a guy like that, especially when it's abundantly clear that moving the team would be as difficult as moving Niagara Falls to California?

Just STFU and go be a miserable dick somewhere else.
The value of the Bills likely doubles immediately after a move to a metropolis like Toronto or LA.

the question is can another bidder win and still come out ahead after paying the move penalties and/or assisting in funding a new stadium build.

thats where obviously things get murky for potential owners.

It's probably why no one is really bidding.

So so the question then begs... how can fair market be determined when it's likely the previous owner setup a restrictive market.

all I'm asking is how the IRS may view something like that if true

[WagonCircler]

The value of the Bills likely doubles immediately after a move to a metropolis like Toronto or LA.

Bu ll sh it.

You really are Felch. Just make stuff up and post it. No one will notice.

This comes down to available cash. Liquid assets. Pegula has that over everyone else with the means and inclination to buy a team with an ironclad no-relocation lease for six years.

That's the entire situation in a nutshell.

Spare us your trolling.

[better days]

The value of the Bills likely doubles immediately after a move to a metropolis like Toronto or LA.

the question is can another bidder win and still come out ahead after paying the move penalties and/or assisting in funding a new stadium build.

thats where obviously things get murky for potential owners.

It's probably why no one is really bidding.

So so the question then begs... how can fair market be determined when it's likely the previous owner setup a restrictive market.

all I'm asking is how the IRS may view something like that if true

The value of the Bills was determined by banks before they were put up for sale.

Those numbers are what the IRS will go by.

[jimmifli]

The value of the Bills likely doubles immediately after a move to a metropolis like Toronto or LA.

the question is can another bidder win and still come out ahead after paying the move penalties and/or assisting in funding a new stadium build.

thats where obviously things get murky for potential owners.

It's probably why no one is really bidding.

So so the question then begs... how can fair market be determined when it's likely the previous owner setup a restrictive market.

all I'm asking is how the IRS may view something like that if true

Even if all that is true.. so what?

The Bills are structured in a way that makes them unprofitable to out of town bidders. They got interest from a local boy and the valuation (so far) is well above the last franchise sale price.

That sounds like mission accomplished to me. Although, by the sounds of it, Ralph left A LOT of money on the table.

[justasportsfan]

In a sense the fans are the "stockholders" of the Bills, without the fans there would be no business. In fact Wilson would have died a wealthy but not uber rich guy to little fanfare. Obviously it's just a tad different when you own a pro football team in which many thousands have both a financial and an emotional stake in. This isn't like Aunt Margaret keeping it a secret that she's leaving her ruby ring to Suzie instead of Emily.


I agree to a certain degree however, his estate is his families business first. In time everything will be revealed which is happening now. He did not have to reveal the plans for his estate.

[coastal]

Even if all that is true.. so what?

The Bills are structured in a way that makes them unprofitable to out of town bidders. They got interest from a local boy and the valuation (so far) is well above the last franchise sale price.

That sounds like mission accomplished to me. Although, by the sounds of it, Ralph left A LOT of money on the table.
So what indeed.

All that I've asked is how the IRS will view this whole sale process and the taxable "value" of the Bills sale.

[coastal]

Bu ll sh it.

You really are Felch. Just make stuff up and post it. No one will notice.

This comes down to available cash. Liquid assets. Pegula has that over everyone else with the means and inclination to buy a team with an ironclad no-relocation lease for six years.

That's the entire situation in a nutshell.

Spare us your trolling.for what it's worth... I'm not trolling dude.

[WagonCircler]

for what it's worth... I'm not trolling dude.

Right. Openly rooting for the Buffalo Bills to leave town on a Buffalo Bills message board.

Not trolling at all.

[jimmifli]

So what indeed.

All that I've asked is how the IRS will view this whole sale process and the taxable "value" of the Bills sale.
Irrelevant.

The reason it was mentioned was because it was assumed the Trust would have to sell to the highest bidder or Ralph's estate would have to pay the difference. The follow up assumption being that Ralph wouldn't risk being forced to pay the extra taxes. But it seems he was confident that restricting bidders wouldn't be a problem, nor the restrictive lease, not the restrictive NDA and what ever other restrictions we haven't even heard about yet wouldn't be a problem either. And if he and his advisors were wrong, his estate will pay the taxes due the American people as determined by the IRS - and it will have no effect on the Bills.

The speculation that tax law would dictate a sale to the highest bidder and therefore a relocation seems provably wrong now, given the evidence.

So again, so what?

[cookie G]

The value of the Bills likely doubles immediately after a move to a metropolis like Toronto or LA.

If that were true, the Rams, the Bengals, the Vikings etc, would be in LA by now.



the question is can another bidder win and still come out ahead after paying the move penalties and/or assisting in funding a new stadium build.

thats where obviously things get murky for potential owners.

It's probably why no one is really bidding.

You might have just answered your own question.



So so the question then begs... how can fair market be determined when it's likely the previous owner setup a restrictive market.

all I'm asking is how the IRS may view something like that if true

We'll find out what the IRS says about it soon enough.

But you are seeing the lease as a unilateral transaction. It wasn't.

The Bills had help from the county and NYS. And...it will use them as perfect scapegoats.

The penalty provision is paid to county (or NYS).
The right to go to court and block a sale of the club to a buyer with intent to move the team lies with the county or NYS.

If the IRS says, "you substantially devalued the franchise"..the Bills have a very strong counterargument.

"No...we need a place to play and our lease was expiring. The government entities involved insisted on these provisions, or there would be no lease extension. IRS, if you are going to value the team without considering the present lease, you have to also value the team without a current facility to plays its games."

The IRS could make a collusion claim between the Bills and the County/state...but lots of luck with that, IMO.

[jimmifli]

If that were true, the Rams, the Bengals, the Vikings etc, would be in LA by now.


No on LA. A new owner there will have to pay for an expansion franchise. No way existing owners would approve someone buying a cheap franchise and doubling their money with a move.

It's also an effective boogeyman for those franchises to extort public money for stadiums.

[YardRat]

LOL...people laughed when it was speculated the team could go for a billion dollars, a good chunk over the perceived value of $870mil. They also laughed and said the team would be worth 1.5bil if it moved to LA or Toronto. Then Pegs allegedly bid $1.3bil, with the team in Buffalo. Now, the 'value' of moving jumps to $2.5bil-plus if moved. That would put them #1 on the list, above even the Cowboys and Patriots, and more than twice the league average $1.17bil. Too funny.

[DraftBoy]

Fantastic news!

Couldn't be happier about this!

[swiper]

Probably only one legitimate bid since JBJ will probably back out and most don't see Trump as a serious bid.

They resubmitted their bid today.


Not everyone knows about the economic renaissance/miracle that is happening in Buffalo.

It was funny the first time. But you're on your tenth go around with that one. Not funny anymore.

[better days]

They resubmitted their bid today.



It was funny the first time. But you're on your tenth go around with that one. Not funny anymore.

It wasn't all that funny the first time around.

[coastal]

If the IRS says, "you substantially devalued the franchise"..the Bills have a very strong counterargument.

"No...we need a place to play and our lease was expiring. The government entities involved insisted on these provisions, or there would be no lease extension. IRS, if you are going to value the team without considering the present lease, you have to also value the team without a current facility to plays its games."not sure I'm following you here. Without a current lease, there'd likely be a whole slew of new bidders involved in this process.

That's not the deal though.

It it looks like only one guy may actually be honestly bidding on the franchise, and he may be bidding what he is because he doesn't give a **** about blowing some fracking profiteering money on a new toy to supplement his current toy.


The IRS could make a collusion claim between the Bills and the County/state...but lots of luck with that, IMO.I agree with u here. The politics of something like that is a non-starter IMO, especially with the players involved on a state level that would get swept up in that. Not to mention, it was responsible politics on the governments part to ensure their investment. Think it's a non-issue.

Question for u... If the report is accurate that the trust is wanting JBJ to make increased assurances that he wouldn't move the team, and this subsequently causes JBJ to drop his pursuit of ownership, can't the IRS argue that as an example of intentional devaluation?

[coastal]

LOL...people laughed when it was speculated the team could go for a billion dollars, a good chunk over the perceived value of $870mil. They also laughed and said the team would be worth 1.5bil if it moved to LA or Toronto. Then Pegs allegedly bid $1.3bil, with the team in Buffalo. Now, the 'value' of moving jumps to $2.5bil-plus if moved. That would put them #1 on the list, above even the Cowboys and Patriots, and more than twice the league average $1.17bil. Too funny.Making stuff up as u go along... u haven't changed.

[coastal]

Irrelevant.

The reason it was mentioned was because it was assumed the Trust would have to sell to the highest bidder or Ralph's estate would have to pay the difference. The follow up assumption being that Ralph wouldn't risk being forced to pay the extra taxes. But it seems he was confident that restricting bidders wouldn't be a problem, nor the restrictive lease, not the restrictive NDA and what ever other restrictions we haven't even heard about yet wouldn't be a problem either. And if he and his advisors were wrong, his estate will pay the taxes due the American people as determined by the IRS - and it will have no effect on the Bills.

The speculation that tax law would dictate a sale to the highest bidder and therefore a relocation seems provably wrong now, given the evidence.

So again, so what?thats a lot of words to tell me "so what".

for some reason this conversation makes me feel like Lt. Dan.


http://youtu.be/2sPk4320HlQ

[cookie G]

not sure I'm following you here. Without a current lease, there'd likely be a whole slew of new bidders involved in this process.

And where do they play the 2014 season? Kling-Foyle Field in Lancaster?

The public corporation that operates the Ralph padlocks the gates and says, "you're not coming in without a lease".

I don't know if the old lease had a provision that it reverts to a year to year lease. It may have, I just don't know.



That's not the deal though.

It it looks like only one guy may actually be honestly bidding on the franchise, and he may be bidding what he is because he doesn't give a **** about blowing some fracking profiteering money on a new toy to supplement his current toy.

You're right..that isn't the case..there is a lease is place. It is academic at this point.

So Pegula wants to throw around a few billion of his own money to buy a football team.

And?

Some people retire to Florida, others buy massive RV's and drive cross country at 45 mph...he gets to buy a football team...God bless him.

If, in the unlikely event he loses..say, $2 billion on the deal, he still has what...another 3 Billion? He can still pay his electric bill.

How is this worse than some washed up rocker who wants to somehow generate gridiron interest in Toronto by holding weekly hair band concerts at halftime?



I agree with u here. The politics of something like that is a non-starter IMO, especially with the players involved on a state level that would get swept up in that. Not to mention, it was responsible politics on the governments part to ensure their investment. Think it's a non-issue.

It is also a pretty clever estate plan. If Ralph's intent was to a) keep the Bills in Buffalo and b) provide a hometown discount...that was pretty imaginative. But not everyone gets to use governmental entities as an estate planning tool.



Question for u... If the report is accurate that the trust is wanting JBJ to make increased assurances that he wouldn't move the team, and this subsequently causes JBJ to drop his pursuit of ownership, can't the IRS argue that as an example of intentional devaluation?

The trust documents may or may not address relocation of the team, only those who reviewed the documents know.

But it doesn't matter...it is in the lease.

Again..

the club shall not "sell, assign or otherwise transfer the team to any person who, to the Bills' knowledge, has an intention to relocate, transfer or otherwise move the team ..."

What are the parameters of the clause?
Does it mean...has present knowledge of a buyer wanting to move the team..

during the duration of the lease?
the foreseeable future?
ever?

A good question, and one that might only be answered through litigation.

But does it give the trustees an out to exclude potential buyers who have expressed an interest in relocating the team? Oh yeah..

More importantly, it becomes one of their duties as trustees. If they fail to consider that lease provision, they expose the trust to further litigation, a court voiding a sale and having to start the whole process over again.

The lease itself provides sufficient restrictions to devalue the franchise and doesn't really need additional trust provisions. And two of the parties to the lease, the ones who demanded the provisions...are government entities.

The trustees need not intetionally devalue the team further. The lease already did it.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

thats a lot of words to tell me "so what".

for some reason this conversation makes me feel like Lt. Dan.


http://youtu.be/2sPk4320HlQ

In that like Lt. Dan your argument doesn't have any legs?

[cookie G]

No on LA. A new owner there will have to pay for an expansion franchise. No way existing owners would approve someone buying a cheap franchise and doubling their money with a move.

It's also an effective boogeyman for those franchises to extort public money for stadiums.

Maybe..my point is..I'm not totally sure that moving a team to LA immediately doubles its value.

[jimmifli]

Maybe..my point is..I'm not totally sure that moving a team to LA immediately doubles its value.
Maybe. My point is that nobody could move this franchise to LA.

[CoolBreeze]

thats a lot of words to tell me "so what".

for some reason this conversation makes me feel like Lt. Dan.


http://youtu.be/2sPk4320HlQ

My favorite movie lol

[Dr. Lecter]

The idea that moving to LA doubles the value of the franchise is baseless.

The Bills are valued by Forbes at $870 million. Forbes only values two FL franchises, Dallas and New England, at more than twice that amount.

Moving to LA does not and would not, make a team one of the top 2 valued franchises in the NFL.

[Dr. Lecter]

only 2 legitimate bids on an NFL franchise? so Morgan Stanley is having to manufacture a bidding war that is never going to happen.

The business world I'm sure is laughing at this.

Laughing at a billion dollar transaction? I wish somebody would laugh at me for the same reason.




this isn't Michael Jackson's estate.


So there would be more bidding if Ralph owned the elephant man's skeleton?


dont you think having a limited amount of bidders says something about either the rules of the trust or limits The current lease sets on the saleable value of the franchise. I'm curious as to how the IRS vid going to view that.

I think it says a lot about the way lease is constructed, how many wealthy people live in the area and the apparent willingness of one person to go crazy to buy the team.


I hope so. That would be way cool. Even wagon couldn't ruin that. One caveat... just don't do it with tax monies.


You underestimate him. I am sure he could do something.

And likely some tax money would be used. Unfortunately there is too much precedent. Hopefully it is limited to infrastructure and limited tax breaks but we shall see.
it appears so. Still wondering how the IRS might view that.


im not *****ing.

We let Spiked do enough for both of you, with Op jumping in as support.

[swiper]

only 2 legitimate bids on an NFL franchise? so Morgan Stanley is having to manufacture a bidding war that is never going to happen.

The business world I'm sure is laughing at this.

dont you think having a limited amount of bidders says something about either the rules of the trust or limits The current lease sets on the saleable value of the franchise. I'm curious as to how the IRS vid going to view that.

it appears so. Still wondering how the IRS might view that.

im not *****ing.

Come in off the ledge.

http://www.bullshift.net/data/images/2014/06/cloudfront-am1omp1-460sa-v1.gif

[BertSquirtgum]

Rejected again. Booooooom Canadians. Boom. No team for you. Hah.

[Goobylal]

Is that official? If so, good.