Are The Bills Trying To Copy The Seahawks and Giants?

[BillsImpossible]

Copycat league.

In 2013 the Seattle Seahawks won the Super Bowl with a very good defense and a good but not great quarterback in Russell Wilson.

Seattle's offense likes to pound the ball with Marshawn Lynch.

Russell Wilson throws the ball about 25 times per game.

Wilson threw for 3,357 yards, 26 TD's, 9 picks and had a 63% completion percentage last year and his rookie season was almost identical.

http://www.nfl.com/player/russellwilson/2532975/careerstats

If EJ Manuel's 2014 statistics are similar to Wilson's, I will be quite happy.

Jim Kelly was a great quarterback, but he only had 4 seasons with a completion percentage over 60%.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KellJi00.htm

Eli Manning is a great example.

Did the Seahawks copy the Giants recipe for success?

Excellent defense, good but not great quarterback.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/5526/eli-manning

Eli Manning has a career completion percentage of 58.5%, has thrown 229 TD's and 171 Int's.

2 Super Bowls for Eli, one more than his brother Peyton who is one of the best quarterbacks in the history of the NFL.

EJ Manuel had a 59% completion percentage in his rookie season, the same as Jim Kelly in 1986.

Eli Manning had a 48% completion percentage in his rookie season.

Peyton Manning had a 57% completion percentage in his rookie season.

The Giants and Seahawks have proven that NFL teams can win the Super Bowl without an, "elite," quarterback.

I think the Bengals are trying to follow the same road with Andy Dalton. He had a 58% completion percentage after his rookie year.

43-8. The Seahawks put an ass whipping on the Denver Broncos in Super Bowl 48.

[The Jokeman]

The easiest way to win in the NFL is with a strong defense, strong running game and average QB play. I mean I think everyone forgets how great the defense the Redskins and Cowboys defenses were that we faced in Super Bowls XXVI and Super Bowl XXVII and XXVIII because we all bought into how great the K-Gun offense was.

[Buffalogic]

They are trying to be Steelers 2.0 since you know, they built that team too.

[OpIv37]

Copycat league.

In 2013 the Seattle Seahawks won the Super Bowl with a very good defense and a good but not great quarterback in Russell Wilson.

Seattle's offense likes to pound the ball with Marshawn Lynch.

Russell Wilson throws the ball about 25 times per game.

Wilson threw for 3,357 yards, 26 TD's, 9 picks and had a 63% completion percentage last year and his rookie season was almost identical.

http://www.nfl.com/player/russellwilson/2532975/careerstats

If EJ Manuel's 2014 statistics are similar to Wilson's, I will be quite happy.

Jim Kelly was a great quarterback, but he only had 4 seasons with a completion percentage over 60%.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KellJi00.htm

Eli Manning is a great example.

Did the Seahawks copy the Giants recipe for success?

Excellent defense, good but not great quarterback.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/5526/eli-manning

Eli Manning has a career completion percentage of 58.5%, has thrown 229 TD's and 171 Int's.

2 Super Bowls for Eli, one more than his brother Peyton who is one of the best quarterbacks in the history of the NFL.

EJ Manuel had a 59% completion percentage in his rookie season, the same as Jim Kelly in 1986.

Eli Manning had a 48% completion percentage in his rookie season.

Peyton Manning had a 57% completion percentage in his rookie season.

The Giants and Seahawks have proven that NFL teams can win the Super Bowl without an, "elite," quarterback.

I think the Bengals are trying to follow the same road with Andy Dalton. He had a 58% completion percentage after his rookie year.

43-8. The Seahawks put an ass whipping on the Denver Broncos in Super Bowl 48.

uh, at any given time, there are maybe 8-10 truly great QB's in the league. The rest of the league is trying to win using the great D/great running game/good enough QB formula because they have no choice.

[DynaPaul]

The easiest way to win in the NFL is with a strong defense, strong running game and average QB play. I mean I think everyone forgets how great the defense the Redskins and Cowboys defenses were that we faced in Super Bowls XXVI and Super Bowl XXVII and XXVIII because we all bought into how great the K-Gun offense was.

And we all know how average Troy Aikman was.

[Mike]

Copycat league.

In 2013 the Seattle Seahawks won the Super Bowl with a very good defense and a good but not great quarterback in Russell Wilson.

Seattle's offense likes to pound the ball with Marshawn Lynch.

Russell Wilson throws the ball about 25 times per game.

Wilson threw for 3,357 yards, 26 TD's, 9 picks and had a 63% completion percentage last year and his rookie season was almost identical.

http://www.nfl.com/player/russellwilson/2532975/careerstats

If EJ Manuel's 2014 statistics are similar to Wilson's, I will be quite happy.

Jim Kelly was a great quarterback, but he only had 4 seasons with a completion percentage over 60%.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KellJi00.htm

Eli Manning is a great example.

Did the Seahawks copy the Giants recipe for success?

Excellent defense, good but not great quarterback.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/5526/eli-manning

Eli Manning has a career completion percentage of 58.5%, has thrown 229 TD's and 171 Int's.

2 Super Bowls for Eli, one more than his brother Peyton who is one of the best quarterbacks in the history of the NFL.

EJ Manuel had a 59% completion percentage in his rookie season, the same as Jim Kelly in 1986.

Eli Manning had a 48% completion percentage in his rookie season.

Peyton Manning had a 57% completion percentage in his rookie season.

The Giants and Seahawks have proven that NFL teams can win the Super Bowl without an, "elite," quarterback.

I think the Bengals are trying to follow the same road with Andy Dalton. He had a 58% completion percentage after his rookie year.

43-8. The Seahawks put an ass whipping on the Denver Broncos in Super Bowl 48.

I think many homers have rose colored glasses when it comes to the Bills & dark shades when it comes to everyone else.


Russel Wilson:
1) it doesn't sound like you have actually watching him play. He is phenomenal!

In fact no other QB in the history of the NFL has has a better start to his career! None! In other words , his play over his first 2 season in, has been Greatest of all Time!

2) Winning the SB: Wilson clearly outplayed Manning and when the game was still up in the air, Wilson moved the chains and put points on the board!!!

3) NFC Championship Game: Wilson was a clear difference maker and a huge part of the reason the Seahawks won that game. Remember that at one point SF was handing it to them, but Wilson lead a huge comeback in 2nd half!

Last But Not Least:
1) Weapons: Wilson's WR are second rate at best. He doest have super WR! Harvin only played 1 entire game all last season. His rookie year was no different.
2) Line: They have a good line & RB, which helps. But what really helps the RB is having a QB that can also stretch the field. Wilson prevents opponents from playing 9 in the box and when/if they do, he makes then pay.

Seahawlks are a COMPLETE TEAM! They have a great Defense, great RB & QB.

[YardRat]

Defense wins championships. Period, end of story.

[coastal]

I've been saying for a few years that the NFL marketing of this being a "passing league" was a paper dragon.

someone would reinvent the basics of running the ball and playing solid D.

Seattle was the first of that.

Heres oes hoping the Bills are next.

[YardRat]

I don't think Seattle did anything differently than the Giants did during the transition to a passing league and they copped two rings in the process. Defense wins championships. Games are won in the trenches. It's always been that way, and until running the ball and tackling become completely illegal, it always will be.

[better days]

I think many homers have rose colored glasses when it comes to the Bills & dark shades when it comes to everyone else.


Russel Wilson:
1) it doesn't sound like you have actually watching him play. He is phenomenal!

In fact no other QB in the history of the NFL has has a better start to his career! None! In other words , his play over his first 2 season in, has been Greatest of all Time!

2) Winning the SB: Wilson clearly outplayed Manning and when the game was still up in the air, Wilson moved the chains and put points on the board!!!

3) NFC Championship Game: Wilson was a clear difference maker and a huge part of the reason the Seahawks won that game. Remember that at one point SF was handing it to them, but Wilson lead a huge comeback in 2nd half!

Last But Not Least:
1) Weapons: Wilson's WR are second rate at best. He doest have super WR! Harvin only played 1 entire game all last season. His rookie year was no different.
2) Line: They have a good line & RB, which helps. But what really helps the RB is having a QB that can also stretch the field. Wilson prevents opponents from playing 9 in the box and when/if they do, he makes then pay.

Seahawlks are a COMPLETE TEAM! They have a great Defense, great RB & QB.

Wilson outplayed Manning in the Super Bowl because the Seattle Defense outplayed the Denver Defense.

The Ravens & Buccaneers have also won the Super Bowl with great defense & average QB play.

[Night Train]

If it's winning they're trying to copy, I'm all for it.


There is no magic formula. Making the right plays at the right time wins games.

[The Jokeman]

And we all know how average Troy Aikman was.

Most great QBs are products of great teams/franchises. I'll stand by this mantra until proven otherwise. Case in point, when did Kelly and the Bills start to turn things around? Only after we added guys like Wolford and Thurman.

[The Jokeman]

If it's winning they're trying to copy, I'm all for it.


There is no magic formula. Making the right plays at the right time wins games.

The formula is give your offense the chance to make those plays and yes if they make them you win if you don't you lose. The great QBs are remembered for the plays they made whereas all too often the plays his defense made to give him the chance are often overlooked. It's why it hurts me to say why I never deemed Kelly a great QB. As to me he messed up that final drive against the Giants and most of that game. People yell at how bad our defense was for not stopping the Giants but truth be told are offense was far worse that game for an inability to sustain drives. Then flash forward to the second Dallas Super Bowl. Odomes gets an INT late in the second half if Kelly could have somehow mustered a TD in that drive instead of settling for a FG that game might have turned into a win.

[Mr. Pink]

Wilson outplayed Manning in the Super Bowl because the Seattle Defense outplayed the Denver Defense.

The Ravens & Buccaneers have also won the Super Bowl with great defense & average QB play.

I love the Ravens and Bucs examples...

If QB play did not matter, the Ravens would have never benched Tony Banks. They couldn't score with him with all their defense and running.

And the Bucs? Brad Johnson threw the ball around 35 times a game for that team. Was an All Pro. Threw 22 TDs vs 6 INTs in 13 games. Rushing? Michael Pittman didn't even crack 750 yards and lead the team.

[The Jokeman]

I love the Ravens and Bucs examples...

If QB play did not matter, the Ravens would have never benched Tony Banks. They couldn't score with him with all their defense and running.

And the Bucs? Brad Johnson threw the ball around 35 times a game for that team. Was an All Pro. Threw 22 TDs vs 6 INTs in 13 games. Rushing? Michael Pittman didn't even crack 750 yards and lead the team.

QB is important to winning and losing to a degree but it's still one of the most overrated positions in team sports. I mean I will argue to this day that Marino was a better QB than Kelly ever was but some here don't see it because the Bills were a better team than the Dolphins during that era.

[Mr. Pink]

QB is important to winning and losing to a degree but it's still one of the most overrated positions in team sports. I mean I will argue to this day that Marino was a better QB than Kelly ever was but some here don't see it because the Bills were a better team than the Dolphins during that era.

Of course fans of this team think it's overrated. This team hasn't had a real QB since Bledsoe, oddly enough that was the last and only time since Kelly that they even sniffed the playoffs.

[The Jokeman]

Of course fans of this team think it's overrated. This team hasn't had a real QB since Bledsoe, oddly enough that was the last and only time since Kelly that they even sniffed the playoffs.

and was that because of Bledsoe or because of Sam Adams, Aaron Schobel, Spikes, Fletcher and Nate Clements?

[Mr. Pink]

and was that because of Bledsoe or because of Sam Adams, Aaron Schobel, Spikes, Fletcher and Nate Clements?

Well let's see, considering in 05 all of those guys were still here besides Spikes who got hurt early in the season, you tell me.

[The Jokeman]

Well let's see, considering in 05 all of those guys were still here besides Spikes who got hurt early in the season, you tell me.

Was 05 the year of the Losman fumble against the Jets? Hell I can't remember anymore. I agree QB play pays a good part of winning and losing every week but again the easiest way is to create the chance of winning a really great defense and a steady running game and you better your chances quite a bit as it puts less burden on your QB to do things is all I am trying to say in simple terms. Maybe it's why I have faith in Manual cuz I've seen him make plays when he needs to (see Carolina, Baltimore and even Falcons game though we lost) and think the defense has a chance to be better than we were last year, a healthy CJ Spiller and yes maybe a better WR core than last year and we could be 8-8 or more.

[Dr. Who]

and was that because of Bledsoe or because of Sam Adams, Aaron Schobel, Spikes, Fletcher and Nate Clements?

I do think a superior defense sets a qb up for success. Qb is a dependent position. A bad defense forces the offense to take chances to compensate, loses the field position battle. A bad o-line, lack of playmakers, and the offense will still have problems.

I think our current d could be very good, certainly good enough to put a team in a position to win. We have the playmakers. The o-line is still a question. I think we upgraded the talent. How much, I am uncertain. Regardless, it will take time to gel. Glenn being out doesn't help that.

Personally, I still have optimism for EJ. He had a typical rookie year performance wise. It certainly wasn't a complete disaster, the negative crowd that dominates this board notwithstanding.
No one should question his work ethic or that he has the physical tools to be a quality qb. He seems bright -- whether that becomes superior football intelligence is the question.
I don't see how any reasonable person could already know what the outcome will be. I can countenance those who are hopeful and those who are skeptical. Those who already know are not legit, imo.

In any event, if EJ can stay healthy, play smart, and be even just somewhat above average, the Bills could at least make the playoffs. If he really takes a step forward, the team is dangerous.

[The Jokeman]

I do think a superior defense sets a qb up for success. Qb is a dependent position. A bad defense forces the offense to take chances to compensate, loses the field position battle. A bad o-line, lack of playmakers, and the offense will still have problems.

I think our current d could be very good, certainly good enough to put a team in a position to win. We have the playmakers. The o-line is still a question. I think we upgraded the talent. How much, I am uncertain. Regardless, it will take time to gel. Glenn being out doesn't help that.

Personally, I still have optimism for EJ. He had a typical rookie year performance wise. It certainly wasn't a complete disaster, the negative crowd that dominates this board notwithstanding.
No one should question his work ethic or that he has the physical tools to be a quality qb. He seems bright -- whether that becomes superior football intelligence is the question.
I don't see how any reasonable person could already know what the outcome will be. I can countenance those who are hopeful and those who are skeptical. Those who already know are not legit, imo.

In any event, if EJ can stay healthy, play smart, and be even just somewhat above average, the Bills could at least make the playoffs. If he really takes a step forward, the team is dangerous.


I agree 100% of everything you posted.

[Dr. Who]

I agree 100% of everything you posted.

I always appreciate the superior intelligence of those who agree with me:cheers:

[BillsImpossible]

EJ Manuel doesn't have to be, "great," to give his team a chance to win.

Just ask Mark Sanchez and Rex Ryan.

[stuckincincy]

I do think a superior defense sets a qb up for success. Qb is a dependent position. A bad defense forces the offense to take chances to compensate, loses the field position battle. A bad o-line, lack of playmakers, and the offense will still have problems.

I think our current d could be very good, certainly good enough to put a team in a position to win. We have the playmakers. The o-line is still a question. I think we upgraded the talent. How much, I am uncertain. Regardless, it will take time to gel. Glenn being out doesn't help that.

Personally, I still have optimism for EJ. He had a typical rookie year performance wise. It certainly wasn't a complete disaster, the negative crowd that dominates this board notwithstanding.
No one should question his work ethic or that he has the physical tools to be a quality qb. He seems bright -- whether that becomes superior football intelligence is the question.
I don't see how any reasonable person could already know what the outcome will be. I can countenance those who are hopeful and those who are skeptical. Those who already know are not legit, imo.

In any event, if EJ can stay healthy, play smart, and be even just somewhat above average, the Bills could at least make the playoffs. If he really takes a step forward, the team is dangerous.

So...how are your liking out linebackers?

[trapezeus]

if i was the QB of two championship teams, i automatically become elite. to use eli as a non-elite qb is ridiculous. is roesthlesberger an elite qb? i would think so. two superbowls puts you in pretty special company. even if you have a more balanced attack.

bottom line everyone needs to carry their weight for the team to move forward. and qb's who hurt the team more often than not aren't moving their team ahead.

i would also say russell wilson is looking to be pretty special. he's cautious about doing stupid things cause of his size. so he's mobile, but he won't run into a massive hit. he always seems to get out of bounds, etc. He's also been a winner at almost every program he's been to. So he carry's that confidence. if he doesn't win another superbowl, i'd be suprised, but i think his team is going to be a perennial playoff team (barring injury)

[Dr. Who]

So...how are your liking out linebackers?

So far, everything I have heard about Spikes is good. Bradham seems to have taken a step forward. Either that, or he is a better fit in Schwartz's system. I think Rivers is an adequate player. The loss of Kiko hurts, but I don't see lb as a position of weakness. It would have been a strength with Kiko on board.

[Fletch]

... and a good but not great quarterback in Russell Wilson..

Say what?

Dude ...

7th in QB Rating, 4th in yards per attempt, one more passing TD last season than Brady on 2 fewer INTs, more rushing yards last season that our future superstar Bryce Brown had last season, all while having had second-rate WRs.

You need to do more research before posting.

As to the Bills, they always try and copy some other team, they never have the brain power here to come up with something original or unique, and usually by the time that they pull their heads out of their asses far enough to get it to work the rest of the league has figured it out and compensated for it.

[Fletch]

I think many homers have rose colored glasses when it comes to the Bills & dark shades when it comes to everyone else.


Russel Wilson:
1) it doesn't sound like you have actually watching him play. He is phenomenal!

In fact no other QB in the history of the NFL has has a better start to his career! None! In other words , his play over his first 2 season in, has been Greatest of all Time!

2) Winning the SB: Wilson clearly outplayed Manning and when the game was still up in the air, Wilson moved the chains and put points on the board!!!

3) NFC Championship Game: Wilson was a clear difference maker and a huge part of the reason the Seahawks won that game. Remember that at one point SF was handing it to them, but Wilson lead a huge comeback in 2nd half!

Last But Not Least:
1) Weapons: Wilson's WR are second rate at best. He doest have super WR! Harvin only played 1 entire game all last season. His rookie year was no different.
2) Line: They have a good line & RB, which helps. But what really helps the RB is having a QB that can also stretch the field. Wilson prevents opponents from playing 9 in the box and when/if they do, he makes then pay.

Seahawlks are a COMPLETE TEAM! They have a great Defense, great RB & QB.

Your post cannot possibly be stressed enough.

It should also be considered that they had very few big-dollar players on their team. Most were underpriced free agents or draftees that Carroll got to overachieve, not underachieve like our coaching staffs have done.

I would add that IMO Lynch is good, not great. His ypc avg. last year, also his career ypc average, of 4.2 is mediocre and below average. He's a pounder though and a good solid 3-down RB, something that we do not have here in Buffalo after Jackson, who's always been a more complete and overall better RB than Lynch. It was unfortunate that he was made to play behind Lynch when both were here. We would have done better the other way around.

[Fletch]

So far, everything I have heard about Spikes is good. Bradham seems to have taken a step forward. Either that, or he is a better fit in Schwartz's system. I think Rivers is an adequate player. The loss of Kiko hurts, but I don't see lb as a position of weakness. It would have been a strength with Kiko on board.

You forgot to add "in camp."

Let's see how things are when the games are for real. 31 other teams are all saying the same things about their new arrivals and even prior players.

[better days]

You forgot to add "in camp."

Let's see how things are when the games are for real. 31 other teams are all saying the same things about their new arrivals and even prior players.

Well, in two preseason game so far, Spikes & the Bills LB's have not looked good.

They have looked GREAT.

I told everyone Spikes would make a HUGE difference in the Bills defense.

That will be proven to be the case, just watch.

[Dr. Who]

You forgot to add "in camp."

Let's see how things are when the games are for real. 31 other teams are all saying the same things about their new arrivals and even prior players.

Well, okay, for those who need the extra information -- this is based on what has happened in camp and in two pre-season games. See, fellas, so far, they haven't played any regular season games. Some folks want this to be stressed, in case you might be somehow mislead.

[The Jokeman]

if i was the QB of two championship teams, i automatically become elite. to use eli as a non-elite qb is ridiculous. is roesthlesberger an elite qb? i would think so. two superbowls puts you in pretty special company. even if you have a more balanced attack.

bottom line everyone needs to carry their weight for the team to move forward. and qb's who hurt the team more often than not aren't moving their team ahead.

i would also say russell wilson is looking to be pretty special. he's cautious about doing stupid things cause of his size. so he's mobile, but he won't run into a massive hit. he always seems to get out of bounds, etc. He's also been a winner at almost every program he's been to. So he carry's that confidence. if he doesn't win another superbowl, i'd be suprised, but i think his team is going to be a perennial playoff team (barring injury)

Eli and Big Ben don't put up gawdy stats to me be considered elite. So I'd imagine you poll fans to rank Petyon, Rodgers, Eli and Ben they'd do it in that order. I'd imagine they'd probably rank Brees and Brady before Eli and Ben too. To me Russell Wilson isn't great but part of a great team. Case in point including the playoffs Wilson had 10 games last season in which he had 1 or less TDs. Is that great play by a QB or a QB who benefitted from a great cast around him?

[BillsImpossible]

Say what?

Dude ...

7th in QB Rating, 4th in yards per attempt, one more passing TD last season than Brady on 2 fewer INTs, more rushing yards last season that our future superstar Bryce Brown had last season, all while having had second-rate WRs.

You need to do more research before posting.

That does not make Wilson, "great."

He's good, not great....and that's my point.

EJ Manuel does not have to be the next Peyton Manning to be a winning quarterback.

http://www.nfl.com/player/russellwilson/2532975/careerstats

26 TD's, 9 Int's, 3357 yards and an average of 202 yards per game passing.

That's not great, but good enough to win a Super Bowl Championship.

[Famous Amos]

I've been saying for a few years that the NFL marketing of this being a "passing league" was a paper dragon.

someone would reinvent the basics of running the ball and playing solid D.

Seattle was the first of that.

Heres oes hoping the Bills are next.

Tell me more about the paper dragon!

- - - Updated - - -


I've been saying for a few years that the NFL marketing of this being a "passing league" was a paper dragon.

someone would reinvent the basics of running the ball and playing solid D.

Seattle was the first of that.

Heres oes hoping the Bills are next.

Tell me more about the paper dragon!

[IlluminatusUIUC]

How exactly were the 2007 or 2011 Giants great defenses? Neither of them even finished in the top half of the league. And I'm sure the Giants were hoping for "good but not great" QB play when they traded up to #1 overall.

The Giants didn't win because they were the best team for that season, they won because they were the hottest team when it mattered most. In both cases, Coughlin and Manning were on the hot seat at times during both runs. Anyone remember this game? http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200711250nyg.htm or this one? http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201112180nyg.htm

As for Seattle, they were playing great football the whole season (at least at home), but they still were losing in the 4th quarter of the NFCCG until this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t3raOHJOO8
(bonus: You can see Donte Whitner out of position)

So you don't need an elite QB to win the Super Bowl, but you do need a guy who can play like one for at least a short stretch. There will always be a time when something goes wrong on D and the QB needs to step up and make something happen.