NFL renews push for a new Bills stadium

[DetDannyWilliams]

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The NFL is stepping up its push for a new stadium in Western New York to host the Buffalo Bills, which league officials say is necessary to provide fans a better experience and to give the team and the league a shot of new revenue.
The latest push comes from NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell. In a conversation last week with Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo and in other recent talks with Sen. Charles E. Schumer, Goodell reiterated his contention that the NFL would like to see the Bills remain in Buffalo.

Goodell promoted the idea of a new Buffalo stadium again last week in a private phone call with Cuomo, according to a source with knowledge of the Bills who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the situation surrounding the sale of the team.

“The NFL never put it that harshly,” said the source, who detected what seems like an implied threat of a move in the commissioner’s insistent demand that the Bills need a new facility.
And then at an event in Niagara Falls on Friday, Cuomo said: “I want to do everything that we need to do to keep the Bills, but I don’t want to put the cart before the horse, either. If we need a new stadium to keep the Bills here long-term, that’s something I’m interested in talking about. But we’re not there yet, right?”
But he reiterated the downside of building a new facility.
“I’m also very mindful of the money,” Cuomo said. “I’m a little cheap. And stadiums are a lot of money, so we want to be careful, and if we have to go down that road, I want to make sure everyone is participating so it’s as light a burden on the county and the state as it can be.”

http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/bills-nfl/nfl-renews-push-for-a-new-bills-stadium-20140809

[Frenchman]

Yeah as it is time to push for a new stadium. For the Bills and their fans. Really glad it is being talked about!

[Fletch]

Some people here, despite this report not being new, insist that the team doesn't need a new stadium to stick around.

Some excerpts from yet another piece that indicate the contrary:

But a new stadium must be part of the mix, Goodell told them.

While little else is known about Goodell’s comments to the two politicians, NFL officials say Ralph Wilson Stadium – even after the $130 million in renovations being completed this year – will not measure up to the fan amenities offered by new NFL stadiums or even fully renovated ones such as those in Kansas City, Mo., and Green Bay, Wis.


League officials also note that the Bills need the new revenue a new stadium would generate to remain competitive with other NFL franchises.


New stadiums offer a host of opportunities for teams to extract more money from their loyal followers, starting with higher ticket prices.


Team owners, meanwhile, want new stadiums because they mean much more income from luxury suite fees, concessions, parking and sponsorships – money that is not shared with other NFL owners, said John Vrooman, a sports economist at Vanderbilt University who has studied NFL finances.


It's that bolded stuff that's going to doom efforts to keep the team here. Unfortunately Buffalo has the lowest luxury suite fees in the league and still has trouble selling them. How on earth are they going to sell more of them at higher prices.

Of course the team winning would help, but even then, you can only squeeze so much money out of an economic orange.

[Cue several posters here implying how wealthy they are by insisting that everyone would spend thousands per season as if money were no object just to keep the team here]

[stuckincincy]

[Cue several posters here implying how wealthy they are by insisting that everyone would spend thousands per season as if money were no object just to keep the team here]

Here's the cost of fun at the Carolina Panthers' stadium...

http://www.panthers.com/stadium/stadium-diagram.html

[Fletch]

Yeah, that seems pretty common around the NFL these days. You find this out by looking at the prices of tickets for road games.

Who sees seats selling to acceptable levels with PSLs in Buffalo? They struggled with those years ago, or something similar, and did away with them IIRC.

The only way I see the team staying here is if an owner like Pegula or Golisano, really decided to pay out of their own pocket, as a losing investment as business investments at this level go, to build a new stadium. I have no idea what the odds of that happening are, but there are a lot of "if's" that need to fall into place for that to be the case.

Right now we need to get past this media circus that selling the team has become or we'll end up having the sale equivalent of missing the playoffs for 14 straight seasons.

[OLDSRIP]

I can only speak for myself.

I would never pay a PSL fee under any circumstance.

Its the biggest scam against sports fans imo.

[Fletch]

I can only speak for myself.

I would never pay a PSL fee under any circumstance.

Its the biggest scam against sports fans imo.

I agree. It also won't work in Buffalo because too many fans don't make the kind of money that would allow them to pay that. Most here are hard-working blue collar types that just can't afford to shell out that kind of money. It's been tried and failed here already. It's not going to work at higher prices.

If you think about it though, that's partially how new stadiums get built, by paying for themselves more than they used to, and that money comes in up front along with longer-term leases on luxury suites. The region has neither the tax base nor the fan economic base to support the typical ticket price structure that's the norm now around the league.

[Fletch]

Here's the cost of fun at the Carolina Panthers' stadium...

http://www.panthers.com/stadium/stadium-diagram.html

By the way stuck, Cleveland's not much different.

http://www.getbrownstickets.com/content/seating-pricing

[better days]

I think this may be a shot across the bow of the Toronto group or any team that wants to move the Bills.

Goodell & the NFL are telling prospective owners they need to be prepared to build a Stadium in Buffalo.

[coastal]

The politics of this are sick.

not a single dime of tax money should be used.

let the fracking king pay for it.

maybe we kick in some infrastructure money, but that's it.

[better days]

The politics of this are sick.

not a single dime of tax money should be used.

let the fracking king pay for it.

maybe we kick in some infrastructure money, but that's it.

Yeah, like you have any say in the financing of the Stadium, LMAO.

[stuckincincy]

I can only speak for myself.

I would never pay a PSL fee under any circumstance.

Its the biggest scam against sports fans imo.

When the Bgal's free stadium was built, they put out a phony seating chart, result being that folks forked over more PSL cash that they should have. B'gals used the extra cash, and only rectified it because they were sued. Then they sent out letters saying that PSL holders had to buy season tickets for ten years and would sue them if they didn't pay for then each season. It took another lawsuit...

Nice guys, eh?

[better days]

By the way stuck, Cleveland's not much different.

http://www.getbrownstickets.com/content/seating-pricing

The Browns have a lower average ticket price than the Bills do.

[stuckincincy]

The Browns have a lower average ticket price than the Bills do.

Why not? They have to sell an inferior product, and have dumped PSLs for new season-ticket holders to try to get a gate. Anything sound familiar?

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/05/browns-dump-psls/

[Fletch]

I think this may be a shot across the bow of the Toronto group or any team that wants to move the Bills.

Goodell & the NFL are telling prospective owners they need to be prepared to build a Stadium in Buffalo.

Gosh, you're quick.

Sounds to me like they'd need a stadium anywhere.

- - - Updated - - -


The politics of this are sick.

not a single dime of tax money should be used.

let the fracking king pay for it.

maybe we kick in some infrastructure money, but that's it.

That's awfully generous of you to be spending Pegula's money for him.

Want him to fund your retirement or anything else while he's at it?

[better days]

Gosh, you're quick.

Sounds to me like they'd need a stadium anywhere.

- - - Updated - - -



That's awfully generous of you to be spending Pegula's money for him.

Want him to fund your retirement or anything else while he's at it?

Except that the Bills can't just play anywhere, it has to be in the Buffalo WNY area.

[stuckincincy]

Except that the Bills can't just play anywhere, it has to be in the Buffalo WNY area.

Indentured servants?

[better days]

Indentured servants?

Yeah, just like all professional athletes.

[SpikedLemonade]

The Browns have a lower average ticket price than the Bills do.

Once premium seats are eliminated.

[notacon]

Of course Buffalo needs a new stadium to keep the team in Buffalo. Orchard Park stadium is the worst, by far, n the league.

Of course taxpayers should pony up a big portion of the cost.

Will it happen? No one knows. I can make this solid prediction. No new stadium...kiss the Bills goodbye.

[BillsImpossible]

Here's the cost of fun at the Carolina Panthers' stadium...

http://www.panthers.com/stadium/stadium-diagram.html

Ouch! Holy crap, that's a lot of money.

PSL costs in the areas of C and below in the chart are interesting because they remind of Erie County property taxes.

I pay over $4,000 a year in property/school taxes in Erie County.

The people living in Charlotte, North Carolina don't pay anywhere near that amount of money in property/school taxes, their sales tax rate is lower, gas is a lot cheaper, and people simply have more money to spend on PSLs in Charlotte, NC.

If my property taxes were cut in half, I'd fork over $2,000 for a PSL and $700 for season tickets in a heartbeat.

[Fletch]

Of course Buffalo needs a new stadium to keep the team in Buffalo. Orchard Park stadium is the worst, by far, n the league.

Of course taxpayers should pony up a big portion of the cost.

Why should taxpayers pick up a portion of the tab?

Do other business owners get to have taxpayers pick up the tab for their operating expenses?

[BillsImpossible]

Of course Buffalo needs a new stadium to keep the team in Buffalo. Orchard Park stadium is the worst, by far, n the league.

Of course taxpayers should pony up a big portion of the cost.

Will it happen? No one knows. I can make this solid prediction. No new stadium...kiss the Bills goodbye.

The Commish is making things very black and white.

Build a new stadium soon, or else we can kiss our team goodbye in 2020 after the current lease agreement expires.

How in the world can a new stadium be built without taxpayer money?

We are taxed up to our eyeballs in WNY, and increasing taxes will only exacerbate the problem and make things worse.

[Fletch]

How in the world can a new stadium be built without taxpayer money?

We are taxed up to our eyeballs in WNY, and increasing taxes will only exacerbate the problem and make things worse.

Unfortunately there are people clinging to the outdated and oft disproved notion that pro sports teams bring in more tax money than they suck up from taxpayers. Even if true, the taxpayers never get a rebate or refund.

Stadiums cost upwards of $1B now. Even if NYS can help, they just pitched in $130M for a renovation. A new stadium would have to break ground sometime during 2017. They'd have to get approval for any taxpayer contributions within the next few years, just a few years after they paid a lot of money on a band-aid renovation.

Once again Wilson dropped the ball here. Had he sold the team prior to inking the deal for the renovation, maybe the new owner could have gotten even more towards a new stadium.

Let's keep trying to convince ourselves that he did all that he could to keep the team here though.

[BillsImpossible]

Unfortunately there are people clinging to the outdated and oft disproved notion that pro sports teams bring in more tax money than they suck up from taxpayers. Even if true, the taxpayers never get a rebate or refund.

Stadiums cost upwards of $1B now. Even if NYS can help, they just pitched in $130M for a renovation. A new stadium would have to break ground sometime during 2017. They'd have to get approval for any taxpayer contributions within the next few years, just a few years after they paid a lot of money on a band-aid renovation.

Once again Wilson dropped the ball here. Had he sold the team prior to inking the deal for the renovation, maybe the new owner could have gotten even more towards a new stadium.

Let's keep trying to convince ourselves that he did all that he could to keep the team here though.

I think Ralph did do everything he could to keep the Bills in Buffalo. He lived 95 years bleeding red, white, and blue.

Chase Manhattan Bank recently rejected Jon Bon's Toronto bid, asking for more sufficient assurances they would not move the team from WNY.

Ralph Wilson, Jr. held on to his Buffalo Bills baby until his dying day.

I think that speaks for itself.

[Fletch]

I think Ralph did do everything he could to keep the Bills in Buffalo. He lived 95 years bleeding red, white, and blue.

Chase Manhattan Bank recently rejected Jon Bon's Toronto bid, asking for more sufficient assurances they would not move the team from WNY.

Ralph Wilson, Jr. held on to his Buffalo Bills baby until his dying day.

I think that speaks for itself.

Right, he held it. He could have sold it to whomever he pleased for whatever he wanted. That includes Pegula or Golisano.

He chose not to.

[better days]

Right, he held it. He could have sold it to whomever he pleased for whatever he wanted. That includes Pegula or Golisano.

He chose not to.

SO WHAT! The FACT is he has put up ROAD BLOCKS that will hinder anyone from moving the Bills.

Too bad for you & your ilk.

[Fletch]

SO WHAT! The FACT is he has put up ROAD BLOCKS that will hinder anyone from moving the Bills.

Too bad for you & your ilk.

What is the roadblock here between your denseness in this matter and reality?

Roadblocks and having the team already sold to an owner that would keep it here are two different things. One would have been far more effective than the other, namely an auction. If you're too mentally lacking to see that difference I feel really badly for you.

It's bad for all of us you moron.

[MikeNC]

What is the roadblock here between your denseness in this matter and reality?

Roadblocks and having the team already sold to an owner that would keep it here are two different things. One would have been far more effective than the other, namely an auction. If you're too mentally lacking to see that difference I feel really badly for you.

It's bad for all of us you moron.

They guy brought and kept pro ball in Buffalo, and your still complaining about him....

[OLDSRIP]

Right, he held it. He could have sold it to whomever he pleased for whatever he wanted. That includes Pegula or Golisano.

He chose not to.


I don't think it's quite that easy Fletch.

I believe it was much better off for the family to do it this way because of the taxes Ralph would have had to pay if he sold it last year when he was alive.
Capital gains taxes probably would have been killer.

[Fletch]

They guy brought and kept pro ball in Buffalo, and your still complaining about him....

Mike, let's look at things realistically here. For starters I'm not complaining, I'm merely stating the facts, and facts they are. No one can argue that. Second, I'm merely pointing out that, and since you seem to be a Wilson apologist, that none of what's currently going on with all of its inherent risks needed to have been happening, if in fact Wilson had truly "done everything that he could to keep the team in Buffalo."

I merely pointed out that since what's eventually going to make this team move is the lack of a new full bells and whistles stadium, that if Wilson had sold the team to Pegula either before or during renovation discussions with the State, maybe we would have gotten even more than we did for a simple band-aid fix, and I'm sure we would have.

Now that appeals to me. Maybe the current scenario appeals to you more, I don't know. Shame on you if it does though. So let's not pretend that Ralph really did everything within his power for you, the fan, when that's far from the case. It's disingenous and stupid.

Now, regarding your comments more directly, Wilson didn't "bring" the team to Buffalo, he started it in Buffalo. It cost him basically nothing and was a flyer for him. If you think that he sat down, from Detroit, and said to himself, "hmmm, what can I do for the people of Buffalo, a city that I"ve barely spent any time in and never had any emotional connection to?," you're nuts.

He lived, and continued to live, in Detroit. That's a fact. Detroit already had a team or you can bet your life's savings that he'd have much more happily planted it in Detroit. Buffalo happened to be the closest thriving city without a team at the time, and thriving Buffalo was back in the '60s.

The guy never ever had a mind for football and screwed us over by favoring Littman over Polian in the '90s and then promptly fired Polian. Then he filled his administration and front office increasingly with a bunch of cronies more based on their regional and local connections than on anything at all related to producing good football.

Keeping the team here hasn't been difficult until now. It always becomes difficult when the NFL tells you that you have to build a new stadium, which in the past wasn't so much a problem, but today it is given the economic difficulties that are largely spawned by states and municipalities, not to mention a federal government, that make drunken sailors look like thrift savers.

The renovation was done just a couple of years ago. Good for the fans would have been a negotiation for a new stadium by reading the tea leaves, and then Wilson selling the team to someone that might be apt to do that. What was in it for Wilson in his 90's to try to push for a new stadium? Nothing. And that's what Wilson was interested in, himself, not us as fans or he would have done something completely different, especially given that he's needed a straw to take his meals over the last few years in essence.

I don't dislike Wilson, at all, he's a stand-up guy through and through, but let's not make him out to be Mother Teresa either. This was a business for him, and as we're now starting to find out, maybe all of those "things he did to keep the team here," A, weren't anywhere close to the best that he could have done, and B, if the criteria ends up simply being the highest bidder as many prominent financial sources have implied, then it will have turned out that he really did very little if anything to keep the team here besides this overrated ten-year lease that will become meaningless in a few more seasons if the team and its new owner cannot find a way to finance a new stadium.

But the money spent on the renovation, and no doubt much more, would have been available to build a new stadium, just a few years ago under different circumstances and when stadiums cost less to build, and had Wilson allowed them, but he opted not to. Yeah, it was his team, but that doesn't really answer the mail on this one. He did not do all that he could to keep the team here.

Get it?

[Fletch]

I don't think it's quite that easy Fletch.

I believe it was much better off for the family to do it this way because of the taxes Ralph would have had to pay if he sold it last year when he was alive.
Capital gains taxes probably would have been killer.

That's fine, but that's not the basis of my statements. And I agree, that's why he did it.

But then tell me, was he thinking of us, the fans, or of himself and his family?

Clearly the latter. That's all I'm saying. So let's not continue to pretend that he did everything that he could do for us, a few million people that he never knew or even remotely cared about personally, when the reality is that just like most other owners, he was thinking of himself and his family first. And good for him, let's just not all ignore that and pretend that that wasn't the case.

Otherwise, no matter what, under any circumstances, his family at all levels would have been set for life and then some regardless of when he had sold. Remember, every dime but $25K, which is completely insignificant in this scenario, was profit for him, unlike most other owners today.

[OLDSRIP]

That's fine, but that's not the basis of my statements. And I agree, that's why he did it.

But then tell me, was he thinking of us, the fans, or of himself and his family?

Clearly the latter. That's all I'm saying. So let's not continue to pretend that he did everything that he could do for us, a few million people that he never knew or even remotely cared about personally, when the reality is that just like most other owners, he was thinking of himself and his family first. And good for him, let's just not all ignore that and pretend that that wasn't the case.

Otherwise, no matter what, under any circumstances, his family at all levels would have been set for life and then some regardless of when he had sold. Remember, every dime but $25K, which is completely insignificant in this scenario, was profit for him, unlike most other owners today.

Fletch,

If I was in Ralph's position my priorities would be #1 to my family than #2 the fan base, or city what ever term you like.

I think that's what Ralph did.

As far as you last paragraph. I get that how much is enough money question.

But me or you deciding how much is enough for a family other than our own. IMO we don't have that right.
Its their money.

The lease and relocation deal was probably the best that could be expected under the circumstances.

[better days]

Fletch,

If I was in Ralph's position my priorities would be #1 to my family than #2 the fan base, or city what ever term you like.

I think that's what Ralph did.

As far as you last paragraph. I get that how much is enough money question.

But me or you deciding how much is enough for a family other than our own. IMO we don't have that right.
Its their money.

The lease and relocation deal was probably the best that could be expected under the circumstances.

And as Spiked has pointed out, the Bills would be worth much more without the Road Blocks to moving the team Ralph put in place.

[Fletch]

Fletch,

If I was in Ralph's position my priorities would be #1 to my family than #2 the fan base, or city what ever term you like.

I think that's what Ralph did.

As far as you last paragraph. I get that how much is enough money question.

But me or you deciding how much is enough for a family other than our own. IMO we don't have that right.
Its their money.

The lease and relocation deal was probably the best that could be expected under the circumstances.

I will not argue! What don't you get.

BUT, then let's look at this for what it is, and let's not say that his first and foremost priority was us, the fans. It wasn't, it was his family. I don't blame him. But then trying to candy-coat it and talking about Ralph as if us fans were first and foremost in his mind is absurd. It wasn't.

He could have done more if his primary concern was us, the fans, and the city of Buffalo and Erie County.

We're in agreement, the big differences is that you don't seem willing to admit that he wasn't in fact thinking of us, the fans, and the city of Buffalo and Erie county nearly as much as everyone let on.

I'm tellin' ya, this new info about JBJ's group is disturbing along with the associated reports that this will be a highest-bidder thing and since they're trying to get more bidders. I'm tellin' ya, the fans are going to turn on Wilson if anyone other than either Pegula or Golisano ends up with this team.

- - - Updated - - -


And as Spiked has pointed out, the Bills would be worth much more without the Road Blocks to moving the team Ralph put in place.

Don't forget to exhale once in a while.

[SpikedLemonade]

And as Spiked has pointed out, the Bills would be worth much more without the Road Blocks to moving the team Ralph put in place.


Or the road blocks that the county put in place to protect their leasehold investments.

[OLDSRIP]

[QUOTE=Fletch;3974763]I will not argue! What don't you get.

BUT, then let's look at this for what it is, and let's not say that his first and foremost priority was us, the fans. It wasn't, it was his family. I don't blame him. But then trying to candy-coat it and talking about Ralph as if us fans were first and foremost in his mind is absurd. It wasn't.

He could have done more if his primary concern was us, the fans, and the city of Buffalo and Erie County.

We're in agreement, the big differences is that you don't seem willing to admit that he wasn't in fact thinking of us, the fans, and the city of Buffalo and Erie county nearly as much as everyone let on.


Fletch,

you can go through any post I ever made, here or anywhere else.
if the government has taped every conversation I ever had. You are welcome to those too.

i have never said what you are saying I said about Ralph.

I'm sure other people have stated it that way. But I haven't because I believe he took care of his family first. Which is what he should have done.

[better days]

Or the road blocks that the county put in place to protect their leasehold investments.

The point is Ralph did not have to agree to ANY road blocks put in place by the County.

The Bills could have played in Buffalo on a year to year lease with NO ROAD BLOCKS if Ralph did not care about keeping them in Buffalo

[SpikedLemonade]

The point is Ralph did not have to agree to ANY road blocks put in place by the County.

The Bills could have played in Buffalo on a year to year lease with NO ROAD BLOCKS if Ralph did not care about keeping them in Buffalo

And the Bills would not have gotten all these new leaseholds either.

I gather you have never negotiated a commercial lease.

[better days]

And the Bills would not have gotten all these new leaseholds either.

I gather you have never negotiated a commercial lease.

The team was going up for sale after Ralph died.

As Spiked pointed out, the Bills would be worth more money if they could be moved.

Ralph cost his estate money by putting in place restrictions that will keep the Bills in Buffalo.

[Famous Amos]

On the radio this morning, wgr is talking about the current deal. The Bills pay less than one million a year in rent while the country and state post nearly eight million in up keep and operation costs. That seems like a **** deal to me.

[SpikedLemonade]

On the radio this morning, wgr is talking about the current deal. The Bills pay less than one million a year in rent while the country and state post nearly eight million in up keep and operation costs. That seems like a **** deal to me.

There were times before this lease where the Bills payed no rent at all. Under this lease, the Bills are paying a little rent because of the amount the government but in for the new leasehold improvements.

[Fletch]

Fletch,

you can go through any post I ever made, here or anywhere else.
if the government has taped every conversation I ever had. You are welcome to those too.

i have never said what you are saying I said about Ralph.

I'm sure other people have stated it that way. But I haven't because I believe he took care of his family first. Which is what he should have done.

That's fair, and again, for me it's not about being right or being able to say "see, I told you so," but rather in simply generating ground swells of support, or contrarily, condemnation, for the way that those entrusted with handling the team, primarily the front office, handle the team.

That has been a frequently repeated notion in all Bills circles in Buffalo, that Wilson did all that he could do to keep the team in Buffalo. I'm just sick of people talking about Ralph as if he actually cared about them even remotely in contrast to his interests and those of his family. I don't blame him, and he seems like a very good person as uber-wealthy people go, but after that it's clear that he didn't even remotely do what he could do to keep the team here and that he was acting in his own best interests. We can call that being focused on himself, not on us, but that's what most NFL owners are.

But when I say things like that and people take issue with it, there's an implication that they disagree with it.

All I'm saying is that I wish we could get over this false notion and associated love affair with Ralph that he did us some big favor. If the team ends up selling to the highest bidder and that new owner has interests outside of Buffalo, which would be anyone but Pegula or Golisano seemingly, then the opposite will have been true, that Wilson did next to nothing to keep the team here for the foreseeable future and that by agreeing to that renovation instead of selling the team to an owner that would consider building a new stadium here, and thereby putting all of the monies that the state and county gave us, and presumably more, into a new stadium, he took the money in his own interests and ran.

If you ask me, it was far more important to Wilson to own this team til the last possible moment than it was to think about the possibilities of long-term residence of the Bills in Buffalo/WNY. So far that seems to be the case.

Either way, this ridiculous notion that Pegula's perfectly willing to overpay for this team by twice, including paying for a $1B stadium out of the goodness of his heart, appears to be grossly inaccurate.

After that, there do not appear to be a whole lot of reasonable options for keeping the team in Buffalo. This talk by Cuomo and Goodell IMO is merely preliminary talk to prep us as fans that we're seeing the last days of the team here.

If that's the way that it unfolds, it didn't have to be that way, but because of the way that Wilson handled it, that's the way it will have shaken out.

[better days]

On the radio this morning, wgr is talking about the current deal. The Bills pay less than one million a year in rent while the country and state post nearly eight million in up keep and operation costs. That seems like a **** deal to me.

If you think that is a deal, check out the lease St Louis signed with the Rams.

Or the deal Art Modell got from Baltimore.

Or the deal Irsey got from Indy.

[SpikedLemonade]

If you think that is a deal, check out the lease St Louis signed with the Rams.

Or the deal Art Modell got from Baltimore.

Or the deal Irsey got from Indy.

All cities and surrounding areas that are much better off economically than Buffalo.

[better days]

All cities and surrounding areas that are much better off economically than Buffalo.

SO WHAT?

Those taxpayers are being asked to pony up all the same.

[SpikedLemonade]

SO WHAT?

Those taxpayers are being asked to pony up all the same.

Less taxpayer revenue in Buffalo.

P.S.: I am going to bow out of discussing issues with you. No offense, but I don't find it worth the effort. There are plenty here who you can interact with. I apologize for responding here.

[better days]

Less taxpayer revenue in Buffalo.

P.S.: I am going to bow out of discussing issues with you. No offense, but I don't find it worth the effort. There are plenty here who you can interact with. I apologize for responding here.

No problem, but don't let the fact I survived cancer get in your way of debating me.

And the cost to the taxpayers is also much less in Buffalo so far than those other Cities.

And on WGR this morning I heard them say there were a lot of new hotel rooms & a hotel bed tax would be a viable option to raise revenue.