Is Manuel a Bust Already?

[Fletch]

OK, based on the ... dicussion ... in another thread, I thought I'd take the opportunity to get on record who is confident that Manuel is a bust at this time?

So if you're confident that he'll never develop into anything significant for us, vote "Yes, he's a bust."

If you think he's not or think that it's still too early to tell, vote "No, not ready to throw in the towel yet."

Just curious. I'll stake my claim as well.

[Fletch]

After four years of incorrectable simple things at FSU, and no significant progress from last season to this one, there would appear to be no significant basis for hope for Manuel.

[Bill Cody]

You're officially a troll

[better days]

Well, I am not ready to throw in the towel yet & I don't know why anyone who is at that point that they have thrown in the towel already would want to watch any Bills games this year

[BidsJr]

Are you an idiot?
Yes.

[Yasgur's Farm]

You're officially a trollLOL... Yup.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Well, I am not ready to throw in the towel yet & I don't know why anyone who is at that point that they have thrown in the towel already would want to watch any Bills games this year100% agree... I'm amazed by the people who think they are so smart that they actually and totally disregard all other opinions as being pure ignorance... Talk about narcassistic behavior.

[Fletch]

Just posing a question fellas.

I read it in other threads. Get a grip?

To me it's quite clear that he's going to bust. Five seasons is enough for me. If he were truly a 1st-round prospect I wouldn't hold that position, but he wasn't and never was, except in the mind of Whaley of course. Whose also a bust as a GM.

The odds are so ridiculously slim that Manuel becomes even an average NFL QB.

[Skooby]

Just posing a question fellas.

I read it in other threads. Get a grip?

To me it's quite clear that he's going to bust. Five seasons is enough for me. If he were truly a 1st-round prospect I wouldn't hold that position, but he wasn't and never was, except in the mind of Whaley of course. Whose also a bust as a GM.

The odds are so ridiculously slim that Manuel becomes even an average NFL QB.

This opinion comes from your experience of working with NFL QB's right? Doug Marrone also seems to cut bait pretty quick, so I'll go with his opinion instead of yours.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Just posing a question fellas.

I read it in other threads. Get a grip?No you're not... You're repeating an opinion over and over and oner again... This time it's veiled as a question.

Maybe you should go back to your "Bills relocating" topic... How's that working out BTW?

[Fletch]

100% agree... I'm amazed by the people who think they are so smart that they actually and totally disregard all other opinions as being pure ignorance... Talk about narcassistic behavior.

I'm glad you bring that up.

Seems to me that the narcissists here are the ones that incessantly call those here termed "realists" as trolls and other names, but who themselves at the end of the season are completely wrong in their opinions at the beginning of the season.

Funny though, they say about narcissists that they are unable to see clearly what others around them see. And of course the cycle repeats itself annually in a narcissist fest of sorts.

So really, most of the posters in this forum are trolls, some just call them homers.

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No you're not... You're repeating an opinion over and over and oner again... This time it's veiled as a question.

Maybe you should go back to your "Bills relocating" topic... How's that working out BTW?

LOL

It's called a question, again, as stated a curiosity, to see who thinks what.

Paranoid or what.

[better days]

I'm glad you bring that up.

Seems to me that the narcissists here are the ones that incessantly call those here termed "realists" as trolls and other names, but who themselves at the end of the season are completely wrong in their opinions at the beginning of the season.

Funny though, they say about narcissists that they are unable to see clearly what others around them see. And of course the cycle repeats itself annually in a narcissist fest of sorts.

So really, most of the posters in this forum are trolls, some just call them homers.

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LOL

It's called a question, again, as stated a curiosity, to see who thinks what.

Paranoid or what.

Opiv is as much a pessimist or "realist" as anyone on this board.

But everyone also knows he is a Bills fan & not a troll.

Being a pessimist does not make you a troll.....but you are one.

[Fletch]

I have the classic definition of narcissists here.

Narcissists in this forum are those that are incorrect and inaccurate about their predictions more often than they are correct, but that refuse to let anyone be non-optimistic or critical of the team and organization until they have approved such thinking.

It doesn't get anymore narcissistic than that.

[bleve]

I'm not throwing in the towel, but it's in my hand.

[Fletch]

Opiv is as much a pessimist or "realist" as anyone on this board.

But everyone also knows he is a Bills fan & not a troll.

Being a pessimist does not make you a troll.....but you are one.

I guess that we have different definitions of what a fan is then.

To me a fan is someone that wants the team to win, but is unhappy about the things that the team does, on or off the field, that do not contribute to winning, expects more but is highly critical when decisions made are not in line with such goals.

After that, the only difference is in the ability of people to be able to identify what types of things help the team win and what simply contribute more to the extended history of futility that this team and organization have generated in no small way.

So tell me again how people that perpetually applaud idiotic decision making that merely continues to render us the laughing stock of the entire league are fans. Just because they're too obtuse to see these things at the onset is no excuse.

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I'm not throwing in the towel, but it's in my hand.

Then vote yes. I think that that card will be played by early October at the latest.

[better days]

I'm not throwing in the towel, but it's in my hand.

I think the towel is in the hand or back pocket of most of us.

I just don't think most of us will throw it in until we watch EJ this year.

[Fletch]

By the way, I expect the "No" votes to outnumber the "Yes" votes by at least 4-to-1 right now.

If we post the same poll at midseason, and I'll do it again, then I suspect that the votes will be equally opposite.

[Fletch]

I think the towel is in the hand or back pocket of most of us.

I just don't think most of us will throw it in until we watch EJ this year.

LMAO

But I'm a troll for posting what you say most people are on the cusp of thinking.

That's rich.

So please, tell me again about narcissists.

[better days]

By the way, I expect the "No" votes to outnumber the "Yes" votes by at least 4-to-1 right now.

If we post the same poll at midseason, and I'll do it again, then I suspect that the votes will be equally opposite.

Time will tell. If EJ gets injured before mid season, I would probably switch my vote.

But I doubt he plays that bad that there is such a big switch by mid season if he stays healthy.

[better days]

LMAO

But I'm a troll for posting what you say most people are on the cusp of thinking.

That's rich.

So please, tell me again about narcissists.

I already told you, being a pessimist does not make you a troll.

Your desire to see the team move is what makes you a troll.

[justasportsfan]

, and no significant progress from last season to this one

please provide us proof of this

[Fletch]

Time will tell. If EJ gets injured before mid season, I would probably switch my vote.

But I doubt he plays that bad that there is such a big switch by mid season if he stays healthy.

So the notion that we're talking bust here really isn't within "troll" status as you and others have defined troll now, is it?

If you were to say it'll take another season beyond this one, as is often the case but which very few if any here are saying, then I can see that "troll" status.

Once again, getting back to narcissistic behavior here ...

[Fletch]

please provide us proof of this

The burden of proof is on you to prove the opposite.

As of now there isn't a credible sports writer in the league that will back you on that. Not one. Good luck looking though. You'll find a few that state that "if" he does, but you won't find one that claims that there's any evidence of significant improvement thus far this season

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I already told you, being a pessimist does not make you a troll.

Your desire to see the team move is what makes you a troll.

I don't want the team to move. I've stated this and everyone insists differently. Simply because you and others insist that I do does not change that.

So once again, getting back to that narcissistic behavior here ...

[better days]

The burden of proof is on you to prove the opposite.

As of now there isn't a credible sports writer in the league that will back you on that. Not one. Good luck looking though. You'll find a few that state that "if" he does, but you won't find one that claims that there's any evidence of significant improvement thus far this season

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I don't want the team to move. I've stated this and everyone insists differently. Simply because you and others insist that I do does not change that.

So once again, getting back to that narcissistic behavior here ...

You can say you don't want the Bills to move but when you ignore the positive facts such as Pegula outbidding the Toronto group & continually SPECULATE on why the Bills will/should move despite evidence to the contrary, it is easy to see through you. I believe you don't want the team to move as much as I believe Jon Bon Jovi does not want the team to move.

And Justa has been a critic of EJ. I think the point he is making is there is no proof yet if EJ has improved or not.

Justa has not thrown in the towel yet, but he is not saying EJ has improved.

[Yasgur's Farm]

I have the classic definition of narcissists here.

Narcissists in this forum are those that are incorrect and inaccurate about their predictions more often than they are correct, but that refuse to let anyone be non-optimistic or critical of the team and organization until they have approved such thinking.

It doesn't get anymore narcissistic than that.LOL... Classic definition of a narcissist is one who makes up their own classic definition of a narcissist.

[Skooby]

Why are we even bothering with trying to debate the obvious ? If EJ sucks and it's obvious, he's gone just like if any other player in the NFL that can't perform well. Predicting how good a starting QB will be after only 10 games on his resume is just silly. Many great QB's start off with issues around them that need to be addressed, weak / rookie WRs / poor O-line and the Bills addressed that quite a bit this off-season. Let's see if these improved pieces help EJ get better, which I think they will.

[Mr. Pink]

EJ is gonna be the starter here again next year, regardless of what he does this year.

Barring something like blowing his knee out.

He'll be gone in 2016 however.

[justasportsfan]

The burden of proof is on you to prove the opposite.



huh? You made the accusation at least back it up with something.


As of now there isn't a credible sports writer in the league that will back you on that. Not one. Good luck looking though.
actually Cris Collinsworth SAW Ej's development with his own eyes. You haven't. It's only camp but people are saying he's better from last years camp. Regular games? No one has any proof whatsoever since season hasn't started. Not you, not me.

I have been a critic of EJ from last season. I am not so confident about him in the long haul until he proves to me otherwise. That doesn't mean he can't and won't just because I thought he was a bad version of Trent Edwards last year.

[Mike]

Time will tell. If EJ gets injured before mid season, I would probably switch my vote.

But I doubt he plays that bad that there is such a big switch by mid season if he stays healthy.

That's the beauty of being a homer. You get to *switch* your vote at the end!

[Dr. Who]

I think it might be just a trifle too mean, but I'd like to see the following poll:

Is Fletch a jerk already?


Options:

Yes, he is an arrogant, self-absorbed troll who is so arrogant he thinks he is reasonable and intelligent and that you are not (probably even if you agree with him.)

No, he simply offends homers.


It would be interesting to compare the results of this hypothetical poll with this one -- for strictly scientific purposes, of course.

[Mike]

My prediction, and I'm NOT going to switch it like some of our beloved homers is as such:

Definitions:
Bust:
- Not living up to 1st round status as QB = Not being consistant top 10 NFL QB
- Being a backup at any point in his career before age of 35 and/or Being out of NFL before 32.
- Not having at least 2PB seasons.
- Being significantly outplayed by 2 other QBs of same class while failing to be a top 5 QB.
- Failing to win in season & playoffs!



Sucess:
- Top 5 QB
- He should be Best QB of his class
- Win in Regular seas son consistently: playoffs yearly
- Contend in playoffs for SB
- 3+ Pro Bowls in career

A successful QB is a QB that has the ability to take his team on his shoulders and Contend. Generally this is the ideal when drafting a QB in the first round. This is a player that will Elevate everyone around him.

--------------------------------------------- OFFICIAL PREDICTION

Chance of being a Success: 3%
Chance of being a Bust: 97%

---- Extreemes---

Chance of being HOF: .001%
Chance of being Total Bust: 50%
(Out of NFL in 3-5yrs/ a player no team would draft had they known what would transpire)


As defined above, I think EJ will be a bust. Most likely he will be a serviceable back up or a bottom 10 NFL starter. In both cases, he is considered a bust for his first round draft selection. There is a chance (50%) that he becomes a total bust like JP. This could happen due to ineptitude and/or injury.

[ParanoidAndroid]

I have the classic definition of narcissists here.

Narcissists in this forum are those that are incorrect and inaccurate about their predictions more often than they are correct, but that refuse to let anyone be non-optimistic or critical of the team and organization until they have approved such thinking.

It doesn't get anymore narcissistic than that.

I don't think you understand what narcissism is. Maybe you will as soon as you stop staring at your self.

[Dr. Who]

My prediction, and I'm NOT going to switch it like some of our beloved homers is as such:

Definitions:
Bust:
- Not living up to 1st round status as QB = Not being consistant top 10 NFL QB
- Being a backup at any point in his career before age of 35 and/or Being out of NFL before 32.
- Not having at least 2PB seasons.
- Being significantly outplayed by 2 other QBs of same class while failing to be a top 5 QB.
- Failing to win in season & playoffs!



Sucess:
- Top 5 QB
- He should be Best QB of his class
- Win in Regular seas son consistently: playoffs yearly
- Contend in playoffs for SB
- 3+ Pro Bowls in career

A successful QB is a QB that has the ability to take his team on his shoulders and Contend. Generally this is the ideal when drafting a QB in the first round. This is a player that will Elevate everyone around him.

--------------------------------------------- OFFICIAL PREDICTION

Chance of being a Success: 3%
Chance of being a Bust: 97%

---- Extreemes---

Chance of being HOF: .001%
Chance of being Total Bust: 50%
(Out of NFL in 3-5yrs/ a player no team would draft had they known what would transpire)


As defined above, I think EJ will be a bust. Most likely he will be a serviceable back up or a bottom 10 NFL starter. In both cases, he is considered a bust for his first round draft selection. There is a chance (50%) that he becomes a total bust like JP. This could happen due to ineptitude and/or injury.

Brady, Brees, Manning, Rodgers, Luck?

A top five qb is elite. A qb picked in the middle of the first round doesn't have to be top five to avoid being called a bust.
Top ten or fifteen with multiple playoff appearances and some success in the post-season is probably enough to avoid being labeled a failed pick.

[Skooby]

I don't think you understand what narcissism is. Maybe you will as soon as you stop staring at your self.

Feelings of extreme self-love & worth, that explains away about half the board.

[trapezeus]

yes is the safe vote.

if he is a bust, "i told you"
if he isn't, "i didn't want him to be!"

that being said, EJ isn't a sure thing to get much better. but i just see how we have enough to judge on him until he plays this season.

if he gets hurt for an extended time, i would say "bust or not", the bills need to start fortifying the position. we need durability and ability. simply being able but not being out there doesn't do us any good.

if he goes out there and has an average season, the team is in the think of thinks past week 10, and he looks markedly better at week 16 vs week1, i'm a believer we should stick with him. He doesn't have to take the team to the playoffs, but he can't be a deciding factor on us being out of the playoffs by week 10. then i want to move on.

i think that's the most rationale way of looking at it as a fan of the team.

[Bill Cody]

yes is the safe vote.

if he is a bust, "i told you"
if he isn't, "i didn't want him to be!"



Sure that makes sense

But what happens when you're so invested in being right about Manuel sucking that you're actually rooting against him? Think I'm exaggerating? I'm really not and anyone that frequents these boards knows this is true. Prediction: the usual Manuel hater suspects will post 50% more after games in which Manuel is throwing it OB to the coaches then in games he's got a pulse and we win. Mark it down, it's as predictable as bad coffee at a Jiffy Lube. Being right is 90% of the reason these guys are "fans".

[better days]

That's the beauty of being a homer. You get to *switch* your vote at the end!

No that is the beauty of being a realist. Which I am.

The pessimists are just that. They are pessimists, not realists.

[BuffaloRedleg]

I think you ought to define what you think a "bust" is.

Do I think he will work out? No.

Is he a bust? No. You have to give a guy a few years before you declare someone a bust under what is usually defined as a bust.

[BuffaloRedleg]

The burden of proof is on you to prove the opposite.

As of now there isn't a credible sports writer in the league that will back you on that. Not one. Good luck looking though. You'll find a few that state that "if" he does, but you won't find one that claims that there's any evidence of significant improvement thus far this season

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I don't want the team to move. I've stated this and everyone insists differently. Simply because you and others insist that I do does not change that.

So once again, getting back to that narcissistic behavior here ...

Come on dude you know that isn't fair. In order to prove that it would require the season to play out. How could he possibly prove right now that EJ has progressed? Even if the evidence was there that he progressed, you'd still say it's only preseason etc.

And who says the burden is on them? You started the thread and now you are declaring arbitrarily who the burden of proof is on.

What you are asking and whether or not they can prove it are mutually exclusive things. You are asking if they are a "bust" yet without you defining it first it is incredibly subjective.

This is a nonsense thread, the equivalent result I would expect of a 9th grader being asked to create a poll about pizza at school in Government class.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I think it is a fair question.

I do have hope he will be a decent QB. I do see flashes of skill and accuracy. He certainly needs to be much more consistant.

I feel he wasn't horrible last year at all. People were clamoring for him to come back after his injury in Cleveland. He was liked. Then after a rookie QB coming off a long layoff, on the road in Pittsburgh laid an egg, he was immediately hated after that and a bust.

I don't know. Football fans are fickle. I get that.

[Mike]

Brady,
Top ten or fifteen with multiple playoff appearances and some success in the post-season is probably enough to avoid being labeled a failed pick.

Re-read my post & the board's question. I think we agree and there is a difference between success and Not being a bust. In other words, a QB doesn't have to be a success in order not to be a bust.

His chance of being a success (top 5) which is a QBs ceiling is pretty low for EJ or any QB.

But ultimately it's these QBs than win championships! It's these QBs he's competing with.

As for being a total bust, I gave him 50% chance. In other words there is a 50% chance of him being the QB you described: top 15/mid teir QB who has some wins & playoff appearances but never accomplishes anything substantial, kinda like a Sanchez, or best case Vick.


To me such a QB is a waste as it ultimately holds an organization back in limbo. He is too good to fire and not good enough to ever win: a poor man's Romo!

[Albany,n.y.]

EJ is gonna be the starter here again next year, regardless of what he does this year.

Barring something like blowing his knee out.

He'll be gone in 2016 however.

If EJ has a bad 2014, there's no way he starts next year. No coaching staff be it the present one or a new one, if the owner cleans house as a result of a bad EJ season & W-L record, will start EJ unless he has a credible 2014 season.

[Mr. Pink]

If EJ has a bad 2014, there's no way he starts next year. No coaching staff be it the present one or a new one, if the owner cleans house as a result of a bad EJ season & W-L record, will start EJ unless he has a credible 2014 season.

If this is another 6-10 type season that it likely will be, everything will remain status quo for the most part for 2015 while said new owner gains knowledge and a feel for the people in the organization firsthand. It would take an absolute tank job for household changes to occur next year.

[better days]

If this is another 6-10 type season that it likely will be, everything will remain status quo for the most part for 2015 while said new owner gains knowledge and a feel for the people in the organization firsthand. It would take an absolute tank job for household changes to occur next year.

Well, if EJ stays healthy & the Bills record is 6-10, I would consider that an absolute tank job myself unless every single WR on the team is injured.

On the other hand if EJ does get injured & the Bills finish 6-10 that does not bode well for EJ either.

In either case, I think he might start next year, but I would expect there to be competition for the job & he would have to win the job.

[Albany,n.y.]

If this is another 6-10 type season that it likely will be, everything will remain status quo for the most part for 2015 while said new owner gains knowledge and a feel for the people in the organization firsthand. It would take an absolute tank job for household changes to occur next year.

If Marrone goes 6-10 and gets to stay, there's no way he's not replacing EJ as the starter. He'll have the hottest seat in the NFL and I believe he's smart enough to know another year of EJ will cost him his job.
On the other hand, if EJ is solid, the Bills will make the playoffs & everyone's job will be safe.

[Mr. Pink]

If Marrone goes 6-10 and gets to stay, there's no way he's not replacing EJ as the starter. He'll have the hottest seat in the NFL and I believe he's smart enough to know another year of EJ will cost him his job.
On the other hand, if EJ is solid, the Bills will make the playoffs & everyone's job will be safe.

What is he gonna replace EJ with? No first round pick. Guys like Carson Palmer, Matt Moore, Alex Smith, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, Michael Vick lead the QB FA list. I'd be surprised if Smith is gone from KC. Palmer and Vick have both seen better days. Matt Moore is meh. Locker is injury prone and Blaine Gabbert is a bum.

There's always Ryan Mallet though! I guess.

[YardRat]

The odds are in the favor of those who prefer a negative outcome for EJ, considering the ratio of 'bust' vs 'elite' over the history of the league for QB's.

[Albany,n.y.]

What is he gonna replace EJ with? No first round pick. Guys like Carson Palmer, Matt Moore, Alex Smith, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, Michael Vick lead the QB FA list. I'd be surprised if Smith is gone from KC. Palmer and Vick have both seen better days. Matt Moore is meh. Locker is injury prone and Blaine Gabbert is a bum.

There's always Ryan Mallet though! I guess.
They'll do something. Guys get released all the time due to the cap. They're not just going to sit there like a guy on death row awaiting his execution. Whaley might just get scared enough to give up his 2016 & 2017 1st rounders if that's the only way he can get a QB.

[Mace]

I voted no. He's only played 10 games through 2 knee injuries. I think realistically it should be "Maybe he's a bust" or "Maybe he's not a bust" and it would still be inconclusive. I also can't ignore a natural pessimism born of being an experienced Bills fan, that tells me he's more likely to end up a bust than not, I thought for sure somehow Kelly was going to end up badly when he finally came.

Looking at the top young QB's, not sure any is worth their press still, and they've all played more than 10 games. Manuel was a project QB, still looks like one. I need to see what happens this year to form a better opinion. They loaded him up on weapons so I think this year will be indicative. I'm expecting injury. Brittle will be conclusive enough for me to want them to get another one. On the other hand if he plays 13-14 games, completes over 60%, has a 50/50 or better Int/TD ratio with a ypa better than Trent Edwards, I'll be encouraged. Above or below that will influence me in either appropriate direction.

The thing that made me realize Kelly was the real deal was that he was decisive and teflon. And if he threw an INT he'd want to make the tackle, and hard. Attitude. I don't really see much aggressive in Manuel, which worries me. At this point.

[GingerP]

The odds are in the favor of those who prefer a negative outcome for EJ, considering the ratio of 'bust' vs 'elite' over the history of the league for QB's.

Yeah, but the Bills are due.

[elltrain22]

What a stupid question. Way, way, way too premature to come to that conclusion.

[Fletch]

huh? You made the accusation at least back it up with something..

LMAO

Uhhhh, OK, I'll back up his lack of progress with a lack of progress.

Tomorrow morning don't eat the same stupid flakes that you did today. K

[Fletch]

You can say you don't want the Bills to move but when you ignore the positive facts such as Pegula outbidding the Toronto group ...

Really? I mean REALLY?

You're not exactly what they call a quick study, are you.

[Fletch]

Why are we even bothering with trying to debate the obvious ? If EJ sucks and it's obvious, he's gone just like if any other player in the NFL that can't perform well. Predicting how good a starting QB will be after only 10 games on his resume is just silly. Many great QB's start off with issues around them that need to be addressed, weak / rookie WRs / poor O-line and the Bills addressed that quite a bit this off-season. Let's see if these improved pieces help EJ get better, which I think they will.

What's funny about this is that two or three weeks ago even some of the people that say that they have the card ready to play insisted that EJ's going to step up this season.

In another 10 weeks this vote will be reversed. Mark my words.

That's really why I posted this, not for any other reason.

Most posters here betray themselves with their ridiculous mind changing constantly. They're like TV talking heads.

[Fletch]

huh? You made the accusation at least back it up with something.

actually Cris Collinsworth SAW Ej's development with his own eyes. You haven't. It's only camp but people are saying he's better from last years camp. Regular games? No one has any proof whatsoever since season hasn't started. Not you, not me.

I have been a critic of EJ from last season. I am not so confident about him in the long haul until he proves to me otherwise. That doesn't mean he can't and won't just because I thought he was a bad version of Trent Edwards last year.

LOL

Chris Collinsworth was referring to one of the very brief high points of EJ's play. He hasn't been in camp.

Seriously, you cannot possibly be this dense. Just come clean and tell us that you're simply being a homer here. Your reasoning is absurd.

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That's the beauty of being a homer. You get to *switch* your vote at the end!

Siht, if that isn't the truth!

Well put.

[Fletch]

I think it might be just a trifle too mean, but I'd like to see the following poll:

Is Fletch a jerk already?


Options:

Yes, he is an arrogant, self-absorbed troll who is so arrogant he thinks he is reasonable and intelligent and that you are not (probably even if you agree with him.)

No, he simply offends homers.


It would be interesting to compare the results of this hypothetical poll with this one -- for strictly scientific purposes, of course.

LOL

Go ahead and post it, I'd be curious myself. I'll bet you 3 or 4 to 1 the former. Which would fall right about along party lines.

[Fletch]

I don't think you understand what narcissism is. Maybe you will as soon as you stop staring at your self.

To the contrary, everyone saying something similar clearly has no clue about the meaning.

Calling someone a troll is not an argument. When I make my arguments there are at least a reasonable amount of facts and data to back it up. Unfortunately that's clearly not the case with those on your side of this argument. All you can say is that "we don't know yet," "how do I know," and then take issue with me personally, call me a troll, etc.

Those are not arguments, they're more akin to emotional tantrums because you and others like you can't have your way of being right.

Yeah, I'd say that that's classic narcissism alright.

[Fletch]

Feelings of extreme self-love & worth, that explains away about half the board.

Agreed.

I'll add to the extent that those people believe that their simple opinions trump any facts that can and often are presented.

[Fletch]

yes is the safe vote.

if he is a bust, "i told you"
if he isn't, "i didn't want him to be!".

Not really. If he turns into an average starting QB like Palmer or Schaub he wouldn't be a bust. He won't have been worth trading up for, but he won't have been a bust.

Paranoid much?

[Fletch]

Sure that makes sense

But what happens when you're so invested in being right about Manuel sucking that you're actually rooting against him? Think I'm exaggerating? I'm really not and anyone that frequents these boards knows this is true. Prediction: the usual Manuel hater suspects will post 50% more after games in which Manuel is throwing it OB to the coaches then in games he's got a pulse and we win. Mark it down, it's as predictable as bad coffee at a Jiffy Lube. Being right is 90% of the reason these guys are "fans".

I'm not one of those people and I sure can't speak for them, if they actually exist, but did you ever consider that some of us really really really hate losing and would prefer to see us move on from what we really see as bad decisions as soon as possible so as to increase our chances of winning while we're still alive?

Nah, didn't think so.

Some of us actually care about winning rather than continuing to insist that people like Whaley actually know what they're doing when it's quite clear that they don't while supporting the very essence of all that's wrong at OBD.

Everyone's going to be talking about Whaley like they are about Nix or Levy as GM soon. Or Donahoe.

[Ingtar33]

I voted yes, only because there was no "probably" or "maybe" option... though i never really considered him a first round talant, figured he was way overdrafted... so i never had any expectations anyway. so it's hard for me to call him a bust when he hasn't' disappointed me. The bills front office however...

[Fletch]

Come on dude you know that isn't fair. In order to prove that it would require the season to play out. How could he possibly prove right now that EJ has progressed? Even if the evidence was there that he progressed, you'd still say it's only preseason etc..

Are you serious?

Again, are you serious?

Please say no.

[Fletch]

I voted yes, only because there was no "probably" or "maybe" option... though i never really considered him a first round talant, figured he was way overdrafted... so i never had any expectations anyway. so it's hard for me to call him a bust when he hasn't' disappointed me. The bills front office however...

You make an interesting point by implication, if he had been a 2nd round pick then there's almost no way he could have been a bust. Once again, I lay this squarely at Whaley's feet, we need to move on from Whaley, that's really the core issue for me. It'll take those that are still in "he's one of the youngest and brightest minds in football" mode longer than others to figure this out.

[better days]

I voted yes, only because there was no "probably" or "maybe" option... though i never really considered him a first round talant, figured he was way overdrafted... so i never had any expectations anyway. so it's hard for me to call him a bust when he hasn't' disappointed me. The bills front office however...

Not ready to throw in the towel is the same as probably or maybe.

[better days]

Really? I mean REALLY?

You're not exactly what they call a quick study, are you.

Yeah, REALLY. You have about as much credibility as Jon Bon Jovi.

[k-oneputt]

2nd rd. ????

He should have been a 4th rounder.

[BuffaloRedleg]

Are you serious?

Again, are you serious?

Please say no.

You need to go back to learn some high school level logic and philosophy.

It is impossible to prove the statement "EJ has not progressed". Completely, 100% impossible at this point. The very proof exists in his play in the regular season which has not happened yet. If he were playing amazing right now that wouldn't be proof, just like when he is playing poorly (which he is) that isn't proof either. The part that we are concerned with is his play in the regular season, not the preseason. You only care about preseason right now because you are basically Nancy Grace of this forum using facts when they suit you and twisting them to make a pre-determined point- if EJ were playing great you'd be saying "It's only preseason" like I'm sure you do every time a player does well for the Bills in preseason. You aren't interested in any discovery or discussion, only proving your point and posturing for the inevitable EJ failure so you can say I told you so. It's sad.

Just because you and I don't think he will it is still hypothetically possible for him to play well during the regular season and show that there was improvement. That means it is impossible to know with any realistic degree of certainty that he hasn't improved. How can you not understand this incredibly simple concept? Please for the love of God do not try to argue with this.

Also, still waiting on your definition of a bust, seeing as it is the the most critical part of your entire high school sophomore quality poll question. If your definition of bust is "looks bad in preseason of his 2nd season" well then I guess by your definition he is absolutely 100% a bust and I would agree.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

He's not a bust yet but all the signs are pointing that direction. How this team failed to bring in even one legitimate contender for the QB job since Thanksgiving is beyond me.

[BuffaloRedleg]

He's not a bust yet but all the signs are pointing that direction. How this team failed to bring in even one legitimate contender for the QB job since Thanksgiving is beyond me.

They should all be fired at the end of this season if we don't at least go 8-8. Even if EJ gets hurt. No wait, ESPECIALLY if EJ gets hurt.

[better days]

He's not a bust yet but all the signs are pointing that direction. How this team failed to bring in even one legitimate contender for the QB job since Thanksgiving is beyond me.

Well, I just read on Bleacher Report (yes I know it is not ESPN or the Sporting News, etc) that they have the Bills offense ranked at #19

Ahead of such teams as the Panthers, Browns, Jets, Giants, Redskins, Ravens & Chiefs.

I listed those teams because of the QB on those teams.

They said 400 points was a realistic number to expect from this offense.

The last time the Bills scored 400 points was 1998.

If Bleacher report is correct, I see playoffs this year.

[Yasgur's Farm]

You need to go back to learn some high school level logic and philosophy.

It is impossible to prove the statement "EJ has not progressed". Completely, 100% impossible at this point. The very proof exists in his play in the regular season which has not happened yet. If he were playing amazing right now that wouldn't be proof, just like when he is playing poorly (which he is) that isn't proof either. The part that we are concerned with is his play in the regular season, not the preseason. You only care about preseason right now because you are basically Nancy Grace of this forum using facts when they suit you and twisting them to make a pre-determined point- if EJ were playing great you'd be saying "It's only preseason" like I'm sure you do every time a player does well for the Bills in preseason. You aren't interested in any discovery or discussion, only proving your point and posturing for the inevitable EJ failure so you can say I told you so. It's sad.

Just because you and I don't think he will it is still hypothetically possible for him to play well during the regular season and show that there was improvement. That means it is impossible to know with any realistic degree of certainty that he hasn't improved. How can you not understand this incredibly simple concept? Please for the love of God do not try to argue with this.

Also, still waiting on your definition of a bust, seeing as it is the the most critical part of your entire high school sophomore quality poll question. If your definition of bust is "looks bad in preseason of his 2nd season" well then I guess by your definition he is absolutely 100% a bust and I would agree.Well said... Thanks.

[justasportsfan]

LMAO

Uhhhh, OK, I'll back up his lack of progress with a lack of progress.

Tomorrow morning don't eat the same stupid flakes that you did today. K

Still nothing to back it up. Thought so.


The burden of proof is on you to prove the opposite.

As of now there isn't a credible sports writer in the league that will back you on that. Not one. Good luck looking though.

Collinsworth small toe knows more football than you will ever know. He could be blowing smoke but at least I found one.

[BuffaloRedleg]

Well, I just read on Bleacher Report (yes I know it is not ESPN or the Sporting News, etc) that they have the Bills offense ranked at #19

Ahead of such teams as the Panthers, Browns, Jets, Giants, Redskins, Ravens & Chiefs.

I listed those teams because of the QB on those teams.

They said 400 points was a realistic number to expect from this offense.

The last time the Bills scored 400 points was 1998.

If Bleacher report is correct, I see playoffs this year.

I thought bleacher report was just like an open blog where anyone can post their own articles?

Can I go there and post an article "Why EJ will finish top 5 in points this season"?

[better days]

I thought bleacher report was just like an open blog where anyone can post their own articles?

Can I go there and post an article "Why EJ will finish top 5 in points this season"?

I'm pretty sure the bloggers are not professionals that get paid, but I don't think they will publish any BS someone wants to post.

And this was not a Bills fan that had that piece. I just checked out the writer of that article. Russell Baxter. An NFL writer, analyst for over 30 years.

Credits include ESPN, NFL Network, Athlon Sports, Patriots.com.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Well, I just read on Bleacher Report (yes I know it is not ESPN or the Sporting News, etc) that they have the Bills offense ranked at #19

Ahead of such teams as the Panthers, Browns, Jets, Giants, Redskins, Ravens & Chiefs.

I listed those teams because of the QB on those teams.

They said 400 points was a realistic number to expect from this offense.

The last time the Bills scored 400 points was 1998.

If Bleacher report is correct, I see playoffs this year.

400 points would make us a top 10 offense or very close to it. That is completely out of reach unless Manuel takes a giant step forward. Without seeing their rationales, I can't really comment on the Bleacher Report article without noting that I definitely disagree about the Redskins, Chiefs, and only agree about the Browns because of Josh Gordon's suspension.

[Dr. Who]

LOL

Go ahead and post it, I'd be curious myself. I'll bet you 3 or 4 to 1 the former. Which would fall right about along party lines.

Nah, it was just a joke, really. You're probably right about the way the vote would go.

[better days]

400 points would make us a top 10 offense or very close to it. That is completely out of reach unless Manuel takes a giant step forward. Without seeing their rationales, I can't really comment on the Bleacher Report article without noting that I definitely disagree about the Redskins, Chiefs, and only agree about the Browns because of Josh Gordon's suspension.

His take on the Redskins........#21, 34 offensive turnovers last year, A new HC Jay Gruden & new offense. Scored only 334 points, ranked #23 last year.

Chiefs.........#27, Lost a number of players to Free Agency, including Pro Bowl LT Branden Albert & OG's Geoff Schwartz & Jon Asamoah.

[Historian]

I'm with Thurm.

Up until now, he's shown flashes but not much else.

I would like to see him play in as many games as possible (without getting injured) this year, and then make a judgement in December.

The first two PSGs haven't exactly instilled a lot of confidence, I must admit.

And if for some reason Geno Smith takes a big step forward...it's going to exacerbate the problem in Buffalo.

[trapezeus]

i'm not so worried about a different QB from that class doing well, it's the guys in the draft slots around 16 up to about 20 that we could have taken. the steelers took someone at the time that i thought was a good candidate to be strong on defense than manual was to be good on offense.

the bills screwed themselves a long time ago by letting buddy nix take phone calls. they could have kept fitz one more year or taken kolb and another shlub to at least try and get through a season and get better at other parts, than have to desperately have to pick someone in that draft class. i think in the end that class will be mostly failures. i think we took one of the better options from that class.

let's see if he can put it together.

[better days]

i'm not so worried about a different QB from that class doing well, it's the guys in the draft slots around 16 up to about 20 that we could have taken. the steelers took someone at the time that i thought was a good candidate to be strong on defense than manual was to be good on offense.

the bills screwed themselves a long time ago by letting buddy nix take phone calls. they could have kept fitz one more year or taken kolb and another shlub to at least try and get through a season and get better at other parts, than have to desperately have to pick someone in that draft class. i think in the end that class will be mostly failures. i think we took one of the better options from that class.

let's see if he can put it together.

Fitz was going to cost too much money to keep another year.

[GingerP]

And if for some reason Geno Smith takes a big step forward...it's going to exacerbate the problem in Buffalo.

It was an incredibly weak QB class. The only other guys besides Smith and Manuel to do anything at all were Glennon and McGloin. Which QB would you take from that class?

Manuel - 180-for-306 (58.8%), 1,972 Yds (6.4 YPA), 11 TD, 9 Int, 77.7 QB Rating

Smith - 247-for-443 (55.8%), 3,046 Yds (6.9 YPA), 12 TD, 21 Int, 66.5 QB Rating

Glennon - 247-for-416 (59.4%), 2,608 Yds (6.3 YPA), 19 TD, 9 Int, 83.9 QB Rating

McGloin - 118-for-211 (55.9%), 1,547 Yds (7.3 YPA), 8 TD, 8 Int, 76.1 QB Rating

[IlluminatusUIUC]

His take on the Redskins........#21, 34 offensive turnovers last year, A new HC Jay Gruden & new offense. Scored only 334 points, ranked #23 last year.

Ok, to that I say that Griffin was rehabbing a knee injury during live games, Shanahan was trying to get himself fired, Jordan Reed comes back this year, and they outright stole the second best wideout in their division in Free Agency.


Chiefs.........#27, Lost a number of players to Free Agency, including Pro Bowl LT Branden Albert & OG's Geoff Schwartz & Jon Asamoah.

The Chiefs did lose talent, but they still have on of the best offensive players in the league in his prime, and Smith is significantly better than Manuel. They were far ahead of us last year (91 points), so they could decline and the Bills could rise without us passing them.

[Mr. Pink]

Well, I just read on Bleacher Report (yes I know it is not ESPN or the Sporting News, etc) that they have the Bills offense ranked at #19

Ahead of such teams as the Panthers, Browns, Jets, Giants, Redskins, Ravens & Chiefs.

I listed those teams because of the QB on those teams.

They said 400 points was a realistic number to expect from this offense.

The last time the Bills scored 400 points was 1998.

If Bleacher report is correct, I see playoffs this year.

You really think this is offense is 4ppg better than it was last year?

Last year offensively they actually regressed a third of a point per game.

[better days]

You really think this is offense is 4ppg better than it was last year?

Last year offensively they actually regressed a third of a point per game.

Last year EJ was a rookie who missed a number of games.

Also, CJ, Freddie & Stevie were all injured.

Woods & Goodwin were rookies.

The OL was a mess.

It was not me that said it, but I agree with him.

I think the Bills could easily put up an additional 4 points per game & posted something like that before.

[stuckincincy]

Last year EJ was a rookie who missed a number of games.

Also, CJ, Freddie & Stevie were all injured.

Woods & Goodwin were rookies.

The OL was a mess.

It was not me that said it, but I agree with him.

I think the Bills could easily put up an additional 4 points per game & posted something like that before.

That would be nice, but If you think that the Bills will improve, what about improvement by this seasons' opposing clubs? Surely their fans share your same optimism for their own teams?

[better days]

That would be nice, but If you think that the Bills will improve, what about improvement by this seasons' opposing clubs? Surely their fans share your same optimism for their own teams?

Other teams did not acquire Sammy Watkins & Mike Williams in the offseason.

[Mr. Pink]

Other teams did not acquire Sammy Watkins & Mike Williams in the offseason.

Williams will have minimal impact. He's gonna end up being the 4th option in the offense.

Watkins, Spiller/Freddie, Woods. He may end up being the fifth option behind Chandler even as young QBs love safety valve tight ends.

[stuckincincy]

Other teams did not acquire Sammy Watkins & Mike Williams in the offseason.

You are right. No other team felt the need to find 2 wrs, one by moving up in the draft and selling off next years' #1, and getting one that was a former high pick that got a $$$ contract and now hopes to be the something his former employer thought they paid for.

[better days]

You are right. No other team felt the need to find 2 wrs, one by moving up in the draft and selling off next years' #1, and getting one that was a former high pick that got a $$$ contract and now hopes to be the something his former employer thought they paid for.

Fine if that is your assessment.

Wait until the games begin.

We will revisit this at a later time.

[better days]

Williams will have minimal impact. He's gonna end up being the 4th option in the offense.

Watkins, Spiller/Freddie, Woods. He may end up being the fifth option behind Chandler even as young QBs love safety valve tight ends.

Goodwin had minimal impact last year.

I expect much more than that from Mike Williams.

[Luisito23]

There is no way Williams will end up being the 4th. option, let alone 5th.

[better days]

I expect Mike Williams to put up over 800 yds & at least 8 TD's next year for the Bills.

Is that considered minimal impact?

[Mr. Pink]

There is no way Williams will end up being the 4th. option, let alone 5th.

Watkins is gonna be the first option, running back will be the second option....so are you saying Williams will be the third option?

Before you say he'll be the second option, Spiller/Freddy combined for 80 catches last year. Williams won't get 80 targets, let alone 80 catches.

You've now relegated Robert Woods to the 4th or 5th option in the offense. Woods last year was 4th - behind Chandler, Stevie and Spiller/Freddy. I'm only combining the two backs because they don't see the field at the same time.

One of Williams/Woods is gonna have <500 yards receiving with a handful of TDs. Which one is it?

To put it in better terms, Watkins/Freddy/CJ will likely combine for half of the teams receptions at around 150. There's only so many balls to go around for Woods, Williams, Chandler, Goodwin, whatever other players stick.

[better days]

Watkins is gonna be the first option, running back will be the second option....so are you saying Williams will be the third option?

Before you say he'll be the second option, Spiller/Freddy combined for 80 catches last year. Williams won't get 80 targets, let alone 80 catches.

You've now relegated Robert Woods to the 4th or 5th option in the offense. Woods last year was 4th - behind Chandler, Stevie and Spiller/Freddy. I'm only combining the two backs because they don't see the field at the same time.

One of Williams/Woods is gonna have <500 yards receiving with a handful of TDs. Which one is it?

To put it in better terms, Watkins/Freddy/CJ will likely combine for half of the teams receptions at around 150. There's only so many balls to go around for Woods, Williams, Chandler, Goodwin, whatever other players stick.

I say both Woods & Williams break 500 yds.

[Historian]

It was an incredibly weak QB class.

That's why I said "if".

I don't really follow college football.

The consensus amongst the draftniks was that Smith was the cream of an average crop.

Then the Bills try to get cute with their pick. I really hope EJ works out because if he doesn't, we're looking at another four years of rebuilding.

Again.

[stuckincincy]

I'm with Thurm.

Up until now, he's shown flashes but not much else.

I would like to see him play in as many games as possible (without getting injured) this year, and then make a judgement in December.

The first two PSGs haven't exactly instilled a lot of confidence, I must admit.

And if for some reason Geno Smith takes a big step forward...it's going to exacerbate the problem in Buffalo.

Wouldn't it?

[better days]

Wouldn't it?

I see no reason Manuel, Glennon & Smith can not all have good careers.

[stuckincincy]

I see no reason Manuel, Glennon & Smith can not all have good careers.

Historian's comment about Smith touched upon what flames would be lit if after all, Smith proves to be a viable starter and Manuel sinks into obscurity.

[better days]

Historian's comment about Smith touched upon what flames would be lit if after all, Smith proves to be a viable starter and Manuel sinks into obscurity.

I wanted Glennon myself, not EJ or Smith.

[k-oneputt]

I would have taken Glennon also out of that list and I'm not that big on him either.

I would have taken him over EJ but in the 3rd round.

Lets hope the light turns on for EJ because he is what we have at least for this season.

[Ingtar33]

I personally thought Geno Smith was the best QB in the draft followed closely by Glennon, and that both were early 2nd rounders at best. right now it looks like Glennon is the best QB in the draft. But it's way too early to tell on anyone really. I just can't get over my disbelief from last year that the bills spent a 1st round pick on EJ.

[Mace]

I personally thought Geno Smith was the best QB in the draft followed closely by Glennon, and that both were early 2nd rounders at best. right now it looks like Glennon is the best QB in the draft. But it's way too early to tell on anyone really. I just can't get over my disbelief from last year that the bills spent a 1st round pick on EJ.

I really thought it was a terrible QB class unless you were trolling for projects, which all of them were and still are. I thought Manuel was the best project, Smith the closest to pro ready, and Glennon the surest bust. Still think they all should have been "sit awhile" types to get the best from them.

!st round kind of startled me for Manuel in any case.

It just wasn't a good QB class to decisively decide THIS was the YEAR you get THE MAN. I blame Nix. Mean time, well, wait and see, nothing much else to do about it.

[Skooby]

Can I change my vote? Lol

[Jan Reimers]

This sort of thread is why I spend so little time here anymore.

[WagonCircler]

This sort of thread is why I spend so little time here anymore.

Hahahahahaha!!!!!

Weren't you the one slurping all over Mark Croce in the Buffalo News comments section?

Or are you actually Mark Croce?

Or his mother?

[Jan Reimers]

Hahahahahaha!!!!!

Weren't you the one slurping all over Mark Croce in the Buffalo News comments section?

Or are you actually Mark Croce?

Or his mother?
This post is another reason that I'm not here much anymore.

At one time, this was a football site for adults.

[Mr. Pink]

This sort of thread is why I spend so little time here anymore.

This sort of thread existed back in 2006 too, it was just about JP instead.

What's the difference?

[kishoph]

This sort of thread existed back in 2006 too, it was just about JP instead.

What's the difference?


JP is not the QB for the Bills any longer.

[swiper]

JP is not the QB for the Bills any longer.

But the results out on the field are the same.

[WagonCircler]

EJ is a hell of a lot more Trent the Teacup than he is JP Losman.

He's injured by strong gusts of wind.

His default is the check down.

He's petrified of taking shots downfield.

His dink and dunk passes invariably stall and result in FGs, at best.

He's horribly inaccurate beyond 10 yards or so.

Losman obviously had different problems, but they were the opposite of Trent Manuel's problems.

[swiper]

And he's horrible in the red zone.

[Mace]

EJ is a hell of a lot more Trent the Teacup than he is JP Losman.

He's injured by strong gusts of wind.

His default is the check down.

He's petrified of taking shots downfield.

His dink and dunk passes invariably stall and result in FGs, at best.

He's horribly inaccurate beyond 10 yards or so.

Losman obviously had different problems, but they were the opposite of Trent Manuel's problems.

Well yeah, but besides that though, Mr. Obvious.

[kishoph]

EJ is a hell of a lot more Trent the Teacup than he is JP Losman.

He's injured by strong gusts of wind.

His default is the check down.

He's petrified of taking shots downfield.

His dink and dunk passes invariably stall and result in FGs, at best.

He's horribly inaccurate beyond 10 yards or so.

Losman obviously had different problems, but they were the opposite of Trent Manuel's problems.

Wow you state seven different things and not one of them (maybe the 7th, but you tried to be cute with the name) have any factual evidence You may post total BS, but at least it's consistent.
If you deny that it's all BS, show me evidence and I'll easily dispute it, otherwise you're just a troll.

[CommissarSpartacus]

EJ is a hell of a lot more Trent the Teacup than he is JP Losman.

He's injured by strong gusts of wind.

His default is the check down.

He's petrified of taking shots downfield.

His dink and dunk passes invariably stall and result in FGs, at best.

He's horribly inaccurate beyond 10 yards or so.

Losman obviously had different problems, but they were the opposite of Trent Manuel's problems.

Hard to argue with you here.

I haven't seen anything yet from EJ to make me say "Wow, this guy has talent!"

[WagonCircler]

Wow you state seven different things and not one of them (maybe the 7th, but you tried to be cute with the name) have any factual evidence .

Except, you know, for those of use with eyes.

[kishoph]

Except, you know, for those of use with eyes.

Eyes don't mean squat if you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Buckets]

I give him to the end of this season.

[swiper]

Eyes don't mean squat if you have no idea what you're talking about.


Well that's definitely self-diagnosis on your part.

As I've said before, if you can't see Manuel's flaws, there are many and he's consistent with them, then there's no hope for you.

- - - Updated - - -


Jeremy White @JeremyWGR (https://twitter.com/JeremyWGR)

Talking about a young QB has become partisan politics. A moderate is quickly attacked from both sides...sometimes called a commie.

Each side saving up ammo for a grand round of "I told ya so."