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Yasgur's Farm
08-13-2014, 11:26 AM
For all of you experts that think you know it all, don't bother... You'll just argue and twist it to death.

For the rest of us, Sal wrote a great read... http://www.wgr550.com/CAPACCIO-When-is-the-QB-Staring-Down-a-WR-/19661044

Almost every pass play has a “first-read option” for the quarterback. A player he looks to throw to if he’s open, then look to someone else if he’s not. So, if Robert Woods, for example, is EJ’s first-read option, he’s going to look at him right after the snap. And if Woods beats his man off the line, EJ needs to throw it

trapezeus
08-13-2014, 11:35 AM
i think the issue was with the batted balls in the first game. it seemed like he looked at a guy and people put their hands up and that was that. play was dead.

to me it seems like the coaching staff has to mix in more plays so that the quick read and throw isn't easily defended with arms in the air. have more traditional drop backs and longer play selections mixed in.

i like the point about DB in conflict. very interesting and makes a lot of sense.

stuckincincy
08-13-2014, 12:00 PM
For all of you experts that think you know it all, don't bother... You'll just argue and twist it to death.

For the rest of us, Sal wrote a great read... http://www.wgr550.com/CAPACCIO-When-is-the-QB-Staring-Down-a-WR-/19661044



How can anyone respond?

You publish a thread that asserts that there are experts out there, proceed to call them know-it-alls, and then tell these fictional folks of your own creation not to bother because they will twist your reference. :birds:

OpIv37
08-13-2014, 12:04 PM
Interesting article but it would have been nice if he added some thoughts on whether he thinks EJ stares down WR's too much or not? Does he do it more, less, or about the same as other inexperienced QB's?

trapezeus
08-13-2014, 12:09 PM
sal does player interviews and such, doesn't he? perhaps he has to toe the line a little and not make those calls pubically. but simply writing that article is a defense of EJ's play to some extent.

i don't think he sees it black and white. sometimes it is staring down the receiver too long. some times its the way the play develops.

OpIv37
08-13-2014, 12:14 PM
sal does player interviews and such, doesn't he? perhaps he has to toe the line a little and not make those calls pubically. but simply writing that article is a defense of EJ's play to some extent.

i don't think he sees it black and white. sometimes it is staring down the receiver too long. some times its the way the play develops.
Well, Sal concedes that EJ does stare down the WR "sometimes," but that's a vague term.

How often did Tom Brady stare down a WR during his first 10 games? Now? What about a bust like JP Losman?

I guess what I'm looking for is some analysis or comparison of the number of times EJ stares someone down to know if it's good, bad or average for guys with his limited experience.

stuckincincy
08-13-2014, 12:42 PM
Well, Sal concedes that EJ does stare down the WR "sometimes," but that's a vague term.

How often did Tom Brady stare down a WR during his first 10 games? Now? What about a bust like JP Losman?

I guess what I'm looking for is some analysis or comparison of the number of times EJ stares someone down to know if it's good, bad or average for guys with his limited experience.

That would be tough to determine. I think we have to rely on a hundred years' of opinions and successes of folks in the business who feel that scanning the field is important. Not always, not every play, of course. There are plenty of times to take the snap ,the look, the quick strike. As in you have a dynamite wr and you are facing an iffy cb.

The deal with Manual is that it isn't just BUF fans who are raising an issue. Folks in the media with savvy, fans from other NFL cities with smarts are also seeing that Manual is different in his reads.

Folks jump and say it's a BUF bash. It isn't. It's an observation.

I reiterate what I've said before, several times...you have to get Manual's head swiveling. Design first-look plays but make the secondary target the targeted receiver. Get a FB. Use 'em.

We will see. I remain astounded how this or that club can go so long without a qb that can get at least a few headlines for a few years. It is, IMO, a management thing. CLE and BUF stand out like the proverbial "sore thumbs." What would this club be like if they signed the likes of a 32 year old Carson Palmer 2 years ago? Who was and is ridiculed here?

Yasgur's Farm
08-13-2014, 01:10 PM
How can anyone respond?

You publish a thread that asserts that there are experts out there, proceed to call them know-it-alls, and then tell these fictional folks of your own creation not to bother because they will twist your reference. :birds:My apology... I was thinking of it as a request, not a demand.
Anyway... Just trying to avoid the same old stale arguments that have been repeated over and over again in other threads.

GingerP
08-13-2014, 01:27 PM
It seems a little more complex than that. That "first read" can change depending on the defense. Guys like Manning and Brady know where they are going with the ball at the snap, because they read the defense and decide their best match-up before. Pre-snap reads are as big a factor as knowing the play. How fast the QB gets through his reads and how quickly he adjusts to pressure are big factors as well.

Skooby
08-13-2014, 01:28 PM
Asking Sal is almost like asking Chris Brown, so I wouldn't expect to much objectivity. How about behind the player & under throws, are those classified under something else that might lend credence as to why they happen ?

ServoBillieves
08-13-2014, 01:37 PM
Good read. The Gnats pre-preseason game left a bad taste, but let's wait until Detroit to see if it's a sticking issue.

Ingtar33
08-13-2014, 01:39 PM
I like and respect Sal, but he's not really saying anything new.

I've never said or even heard the complaint he stares down a WR too long... I think the main issue is he's running a 1 read super simplified offense that defenses are eating alive

stuckincincy
08-13-2014, 01:41 PM
My apology... I was thinking of it as a request, not a demand.
Anyway... Just trying to avoid the same old stale arguments that have been repeated over and over again in other threads.

I'm with you 100% on the old stale arguments!

The article mentioned Woods...that youngster has unlimited potential. He reminds me of Welker in his prime.

stuckincincy
08-13-2014, 01:51 PM
I like and respect Sal, but he's not really saying anything new.

I've never said or even heard the complaint he stares down a WR too long... I think the main issue is he's running a 1 read super simplified offense that defenses are eating alive

In my limited observation - he does. A fair question is why it would be a main issue as to why he has to be relegated to a super-simplified offense.

For all the talk about giving him a chance - and which I do - the evidence mounts up that he was a reach, mitigated by the trade-down that draft year. I'd be happy to be proven wrong,

ghz in pittsburgh
08-13-2014, 02:14 PM
It seems a little more complex than that. That "first read" can change depending on the defense. Guys like Manning and Brady know where they are going with the ball at the snap, because they read the defense and decide their best match-up before. Pre-snap reads are as big a factor as knowing the play. How fast the QB gets through his reads and how quickly he adjusts to pressure are big factors as well.

Agree to a certain point. Pre-sanp read is big, probably bigger than anything else on the field for a QB. You are talking about all the pre-game study, defensive play/personnel combinations and match up offensive play into the precious seconds. Manning is the king of that. It is no surprise that he tends to line up his guys way before clock to maximize time there. Adjusting blocking schemes is probably the most difficult part that I don't see the Bills having Manuel doing even in his 2nd year.

Then the ability to process information quickly after the snap. Kurt Warner is probably the best I've seen in this modern era and Tom Brady is not that far behind.

It is safe to say EJ demonstrated nothing special in both technical area thus far in his career. In fact you may use the word "lack of" in those area. I'm not going into the leadership, working habits and other intangiables, nor the physical side of things.

On a separate note, Kiko showed unbelievable information processing ability last year, to the point he reacted too quickly in some plays to allow people cutting back on him (the phrase you heard is over run plays). Nigel has been doing fine this pre-season, but he's not at Kiko's mental ability level. Believe me when I say it here: The Bills are going to miss Kiko this season.

swiper
08-13-2014, 02:18 PM
For all of you experts that think you know it all, don't bother... You'll just argue and twist it to death.

For the rest of us, Sal wrote a great read... http://www.wgr550.com/CAPACCIO-When-is-the-QB-Staring-Down-a-WR-/19661044

I read it and didn't need to bother. The day I need Sal Crapaccio, narcissist & master self-promoter, to tell me what I'm looking at on a football field will be the day hell freezes over. Not to mention he treats his readers like 3rd graders. LOL. Figures that you would finger this as proof that Manuel isn't staring at receivers. Lets ask some CBs and DCs that have played against him. He doesn't get the rep that he's telegraphing his throws because he's staring at the DB trying to see which way he'll break. Stupidity amongst the Manuel apologists.

The more preseason I get to see from around the league I see a lot of 2nd & 3rd stringers doing what Manuel isn't. Even Tuel is doing it better.

sudzy
08-13-2014, 02:36 PM
Watching NFL network after the Hall of Fame game, Brian Billick said that EJ still has a problem with "staring down WRs." I'd call him an expert, no offense Sal.

Skooby
08-13-2014, 02:39 PM
I read it and didn't need to bother. The day I need Sal Crapaccio, narcissist & master self-promoter, to tell me what I'm looking at on a football field will be the day hell freezes over. Not to mention he treats his readers like 3rd graders. LOL. Figures that you would finger this as proof that Manuel isn't staring at receivers. Lets ask some CBs and DCs that have played against him. He doesn't get the rep that he's telegraphing his throws because he's staring at the DB trying to see which way he'll break. Stupidity amongst the Manuel apologists.

The more preseason I get to see from around the league I see a lot of 2nd & 3rd stringers doing what Manuel isn't. Even Tuel is doing it better.

So you're a big EJ fan ??

kishoph
08-13-2014, 03:31 PM
I read it and didn't need to bother. The day I need Sal Crapaccio, narcissist & master self-promoter, to tell me what I'm looking at on a football field will be the day hell freezes over. Not to mention he treats his readers like 3rd graders. LOL. Figures that you would finger this as proof that Manuel isn't staring at receivers. Lets ask some CBs and DCs that have played against him. He doesn't get the rep that he's telegraphing his throws because he's staring at the DB trying to see which way he'll break. Stupidity amongst the Manuel apologists.

The more preseason I get to see from around the league I see a lot of 2nd & 3rd stringers doing what Manuel isn't. Even Tuel is doing it better.

If he was always staring down receivers, wouldn't he have a problem with throwing ints. ? He threw 4 ints. in his first 8 games (5 without a int.) as a rookie, then had a bad game against Tampa were he threw 4, although 2 were off the hands of receivers and a third should/could of been overturned because it hit the turf. He also didn't have a problem with ints. in college. Does this seem like someone that continuously stares down his receivers, especially if he has such bad accuracy problems ? Why haven't theses CB's that have played against him picked him off more ?

Mr. Pink
08-13-2014, 03:33 PM
Just watch him play. You can see he stares one guy down the entire play. Coverage doesn't matter. If he isn't sacked or the pocket doesn't collapse, he throws to that guy regardless of what the coverage is.

If protection breaks down he is forced to find someone but more often than not he either runs or is taken down for a sack.

He doesn't look off safeties or linebackers, it's how those players often get into his throwing lane. We saw that against the Giants in the HOF game in the red zone.

Yasgur's Farm
08-13-2014, 06:00 PM
If he was always staring down receivers, wouldn't he have a problem with throwing ints. ? He threw 4 ints. in his first 8 games (5 without a int.) as a rookie, then had a bad game against Tampa were he threw 4, although 2 were off the hands of receivers and a third should/could of been overturned because it hit the turf. He also didn't have a problem with ints. in college. Does this seem like someone that continuously stares down his receivers, especially if he has such bad accuracy problems ? Why haven't theses CB's that have played against him picked him off more ?Don't confuse them... You won't like it if you confuse them!!

Fletch
08-13-2014, 07:01 PM
Nothin' like taking one play and trying to generate a pattern with it.

Manuel needs to start staring down DBs then, but do whatever it F'n takes to play three or four straight quarters of football, siht, two quarters. He can't do that.

- - - Updated - - -


Don't confuse them... You won't like it if you confuse them!!

You two guys are confused from the moment your eyes open in the morning.

Fletch
08-13-2014, 07:08 PM
I read it and didn't need to bother. The day I need Sal Crapaccio, narcissist & master self-promoter, to tell me what I'm looking at on a football field will be the day hell freezes over. Not to mention he treats his readers like 3rd graders. LOL. Figures that you would finger this as proof that Manuel isn't staring at receivers. Lets ask some CBs and DCs that have played against him. He doesn't get the rep that he's telegraphing his throws because he's staring at the DB trying to see which way he'll break. Stupidity amongst the Manuel apologists.

The more preseason I get to see from around the league I see a lot of 2nd & 3rd stringers doing what Manuel isn't. Even Tuel is doing it better.

Man you nailed that from top to bottom. I wasn't going to comment, but you just nailed that. Sal's never offered anything original whatsoever. I haven't seen anything worth reading of his from the day he made it big back in Buffalo.

Fletch
08-13-2014, 07:12 PM
I like and respect Sal, but he's not really saying anything new.

I've never said or even heard the complaint he stares down a WR too long... I think the main issue is he's running a 1 read super simplified offense that defenses are eating alive

He ran a super simplified offense at FSU too, because the coaches couldn't work with him effectively. He couldn't learn and improve, it was purely his athleticism and physical talent differential between him and his teammates and their opponents.

Ingtar33
08-13-2014, 09:27 PM
He ran a super simplified offense at FSU too, because the coaches couldn't work with him effectively. He couldn't learn and improve, it was purely his athleticism and physical talent differential between him and his teammates and their opponents.

I'll dig out what i said about manuel before that draft, but it went something like this... "EJ's got the physical tools that make a scout drool. I'm not saying he'll be a good QB, only that some team is going to get conned into drafting him in the first round"... i remember expressing my dismay after he was drafted by the bills that it was the bills who were conned into taking him.

Fletch
08-13-2014, 09:45 PM
I'll dig out what i said about manuel before that draft, but it went something like this... "EJ's got the physical tools that make a scout drool. I'm not saying he'll be a good QB, only that some team is going to get conned into drafting him in the first round"... i remember expressing my dismay after he was drafted by the bills that it was the bills who were conned into taking him.

See, here's the thing, those physical tools made scouts drool if they didn't extrapolate his play to the NFL. Any scout worth his salt should have easily seen that those physical tools, or rather the differential between them and NFL caliber defenders, shuts that gap down, that Manuel had the luxury of having in just about every single game at FSU.

How can a scout not see that and be considered knowledgeable?

Same for these speedster type of players. The very first gap that closes for college players is speed. If that's all a player has, or is his primary asset with all of the others being secondary, the odds of his success at the NFL level diminish drastically. Drastically.

What's the very first thing that players talk about in making the transition from college ball to pro ball? They all say the speed of the game and that speed is predicated upon the speed of the players playing the game.

Scouts would be a lot more accurate than they are if they'd account for that much more. It's astonishing that so many don't.

better days
08-13-2014, 11:58 PM
See, here's the thing, those physical tools made scouts drool if they didn't extrapolate his play to the NFL. Any scout worth his salt should have easily seen that those physical tools, or rather the differential between them and NFL caliber defenders, shuts that gap down, that Manuel had the luxury of having in just about every single game at FSU.

How can a scout not see that and be considered knowledgeable?

Same for these speedster type of players. The very first gap that closes for college players is speed. If that's all a player has, or is his primary asset with all of the others being secondary, the odds of his success at the NFL level diminish drastically. Drastically.

What's the very first thing that players talk about in making the transition from college ball to pro ball? They all say the speed of the game and that speed is predicated upon the speed of the players playing the game.

Scouts would be a lot more accurate than they are if they'd account for that much more. It's astonishing that so many don't.

Well since you know so much about scouting, why don't you go get yourself a job as the head scout of an NFL team?

kishoph
08-14-2014, 03:33 AM
Well since you know so much about scouting, why don't you go get yourself a job as the head scout of an NFL team?

His Parents won't let him use the car. :shortbus:

swiper
08-14-2014, 04:28 AM
His Parents won't let him use the car. :shortbus:

You should talk.

OpIv37
08-14-2014, 08:19 AM
Well since you know so much about scouting, why don't you go get yourself a job as the head scout of an NFL team?

Well clearly the Bills scouts know what they're doing- I mean it's not like the team has been losing for 14 years or anything....

Man, I hate it when people say crap like this. First, if being a scout is the necessary criteria for commenting, you might as well shut this site down because none of us are scouts.

Second, the scouts that run the team have done a terrible job. Title doesn't dictate competence- performance does. And there have been dozens - if not hundreds- of times where one or more people on this board turned out to be right on a personnel decision whereas the team turned out to be wrong. There is no excuse for that.

better days
08-14-2014, 08:29 AM
Well clearly the Bills scouts know what they're doing- I mean it's not like the team has been losing for 14 years or anything....

Man, I hate it when people say crap like this. First, if being a scout is the necessary criteria for commenting, you might as well shut this site down because none of us are scouts.

Second, the scouts that run the team have done a terrible job. Title doesn't dictate competence- performance does. And there have been dozens - if not hundreds- of times where one or more people on this board turned out to be right on a personnel decision whereas the team turned out to be wrong. There is no excuse for that.

I hate when people bring up PAST HISTORY which involves people NO LONGER associated with the Bills.

OpIv37
08-14-2014, 08:36 AM
I hate when people bring up PAST HISTORY which involves people NO LONGER associated with the Bills.

The point is that just because somebody is or was a scout, it doesn't mean that they are automatically right and a poster who is not a scout is automatically wrong. The actual scouts that this team has employed have been proven wrong time and time again.

better days
08-14-2014, 08:41 AM
The point is that just because somebody is or was a scout, it doesn't mean that they are automatically right and a poster who is not a scout is automatically wrong. The actual scouts that this team has employed have been proven wrong time and time again.

Well, I can't argue that was the case in the past.

But as I said, that is PAST HISTORY.

Nix replaced some scouts & added many more.

The scouting dept is totally different than it was when Nix was hired.

DraftBoy
08-14-2014, 08:52 AM
I like and respect Sal, but he's not really saying anything new.

I've never said or even heard the complaint he stares down a WR too long... I think the main issue is he's running a 1 read super simplified offense that defenses are eating alive

That's my biggest concern right now as well, the whole game plan is 1 read and then look for the TE or RB on a dump off. They run little option routes that I can see and everything has to happen quickly because the OL is just meh and the QB is still learning. Zone blitzes, stunts, and overloads are killing this team on passing downs.

stuckincincy
08-14-2014, 12:35 PM
That's my biggest concern right now as well, the whole game plan is 1 read and then look for the TE or RB on a dump off. They run little option routes that I can see and everything has to happen quickly because the OL is just meh and the QB is still learning. Zone blitzes, stunts, and overloads are killing this team on passing downs.

If that's what they are doing, they are trying to polish up what they might feel as a drafting mistake. I'd go along with a 1st read but be damn sure that that 2nd option was not just a dump off, but to a designated receiver - that secondary target. Use the pre season to use the 1st look as a fake, and teach this youngster. He's certainly not the first young QB to lock on. And - again - in the pre season, put in a FB or some such to give him an additional second or to to process things. I'm all for using the pre season to practice razzle-dazzle plays, but BUF has committed to a qb that unlike the recent crop of Kap and Dalton and Wilson, is not "NDL ready."

swiper
08-14-2014, 12:41 PM
That's my biggest concern right now as well, the whole game plan is 1 read and then look for the TE or RB on a dump off. They run little option routes that I can see and everything has to happen quickly because the OL is just meh and the QB is still learning. Zone blitzes, stunts, and overloads are killing this team on passing downs.

LOL. That's what all the critics here have been saying all along. Now you decide you're concerned and we're all supposed to bow down to you? ROFLMAO. You can read the Bills offense from a mile away. It's going to be a tough season. Especially if the o-line doesn't gel better before camp is over.

trapezeus
08-14-2014, 12:52 PM
INGTAR is right. the fact that the offense call is so one dimensional is making it easy for defenses to jump on plays. the OC needs to get comfortable with EJ and EJ needs to prove he can handle more in an offense. if the bills can do one read plays and sprinkle them in with multi read plays where the defense at least has to guess what is about to happen, it buys time.

If the OC really doesn't feel comfortable with EJ, that's a big EJ problem. but it's also a big OC problem. They aren't there to just get a gameplan installed. it's to coach the team up. get them ready to do what the OC wants to execute. After 2 seasons if they both can't progress past one read plays, they both deserve to be replaced