Suck for Luck

[Mike]

A few years ago, I asked a simple question:
"Would you suck for Luck?"

= As a fan were you in favor of intentionally tanking the season for Luck, a QB that has been one of 3 greatest QB prospects of last 30 years! (The others: Elway, P. Manning)

=> Most of you said
- 'Hell No'
- 'we have too much pride'
- 'there are no guarantees'


With the newfound benefit of hindsight and Knowing what you know now,
"Would you suck for the Next Luck?"

[l3ills]

Uhhhhh. .... suck what ?

[Novacane]

Who is the next Luck?

[swiper]

I hope we didn't suck for Manuel, did we?

[Mike]

Who is the next Luck?

Every decade or so a great prospects emerges. The Colts have been luckily enough to draft the last 2!

In a 30 year span, from 1998 to 2028, I predict they will only have a couple of loosing seasons! As a result of their QB selections, they have been winningest team since 99 season.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I was all about sucking for Luck.

[SpikedLemonade]

I was all about sucking for Luck.

So was I.

The Sabres seem to have adopted this strategy.

[better days]

The smoking gun. Irsey paid off Snyder to have his team injure Peyton so the Colts could draft Luck.

[ServoBillieves]

We should've got Luck, Adrian Peterson, Patrick Willis, Reggie Wayne, Jimmy Graham, Darrelle Revis, Logan Mankins, Roos, Evans, yada ya...

http://www.buffalobills.com/team/roster.html

There's your team for 2014, deal with it.

[Ginger Vitis]

Unfortunately the Bills got off to a mirage like 3-0 start in 2011 and fell behind in the "Suck for Luck Sweepstakes"

[Ginger Vitis]

So was I.

The Sabres seem to have adopted this strategy.

it was hilarious on NHL tradeline day when the Sabres traded off asset after asset you whined and cried what they were doings was illegal..breaking rules.. immoral

[SpikedLemonade]

it was hilarious on NHL tradeline day when the Sabres traded off asset after asset you whined and cried what they were doings was illegal..breaking rules.. immoral

You sure I wasn't simply calling Buffalo Loserville?

[EDS]

The Bills brain trust has been brilliant in its team building approach, when you think about it. Buddy ignored the QB position all together, selling the fans on Chan's offensive genius. That approach enabled him to use the built in excuse of needing a QB as a basis for justifying the teams struggles. Then, in a true stroke of luck allowed the team to couple (a) its offensive ineptitude over a prolonged period of time utilizing a journeyman QB with (b) the organizations own public embarassment in allowing a couple of pea brained fans to record a conversation with another GM where Buddy admitted the team needed a new QB. Talk about a windfall! The Bills HAD to draft a QB in a year with marignal prospects. Then they have been able to obfuscate who actually decided EJ was the pick (was it Buddy or Whaley? No on knows!) to give Whaley a few additional years of job security by being able to blame his septagenarian rookie GM predecessor.

The team also saved a bundle of cash on relocation fees for its coaching staff by hiring the closet possible candidate. Oh, and Whaley can blame Marrone on Buddy too. The blood pack Whaley has with Brandon was full proof (I hear Buddy got a few real nice fishing lures and blanket out of the deal too, so don't think he was taken advantage of) until Ralph passed, opening the door to outside critical thinking for the first time ages.

[jills]

Unfortunately the Bills got off to a mirage like 3-0 start in 2011 and fell behind in the "Suck for Luck Sweepstakes"

So it's safe to say we suck at sucking. Same ol' Bills.

[Ginger Vitis]

the 2nd and 3rd game of that season(Raiders and Patriots) were the most exciting exhilarating back to back games of the last 15 years. So ****ing sad and comical those 2 games are the best I can come up with the last 15 years not one friggen playoff game

[Mike]

So was I.

The Sabres seem to have adopted this strategy.

In my opinion, the Penguins won a Stanley Cup because of this stretegy.

[feldspar]

No professional is going to throw games on purpose across a whole season. They have their careers and reputations on the line, and if they aren't always trying to win, they have no business being in the business.

You really think that coaches and players are willing to lose games to have the opportunity to acquire a player in the draft? A good deal of those guys are fired when the player comes to town anyway...and then they are devalued at their profession on top of that.

Stupid concept.

[JoeMama]

I hope Jameis Winston stays at FSU through 2015 (and he claims he wants to).

We obviously don't have a first rounder to draft EJ Manuel's replacement in 2015. So if EJ flops this season (and the odds seem stacked against him), I would definitely jump on the "Suck for Winston" bandwagon next year to get the #1 overall pick in 2016.

I can deal with a 2-14 season if the light at the end of the tunnel is Winston. It would guarantee a dozen years of playoff/championship caliber football. Fair trade.

[stuckincincy]

I was all about sucking for Luck.

So was Irsay. IND dumped a bunch of vets going into that season.

[WagonCircler]

No professional is going to throw games on purpose across a whole season. They have their careers and reputations on the line, and if they aren't always trying to win, they have no business being in the business.

You really think that coaches and players are willing to lose games to have the opportunity to acquire a player in the draft? A good deal of those guys are fired when the player comes to town anyway...and then they are devalued at their profession on top of that.

Stupid concept.

I've never thought that players or coaches throw games, but I definitely think that execs can control a tanking campaign with trades and other personnel moves. I have zero doubt that's what's going on with the Sabres, and they're not even trying to hide it. And I'm happy about it, even if we don't get McDavid.

The Sabres the greatest stockpile of young talent in the NHL.

The Bills, on the other hand, are the NFL version of Groundhog Day.

One of the infinite benefits of (God willing) having Pegula as owner of the Bills is that he has the balls to approve a strategy like the Sabres are using right now.

[stuckincincy]

I've never thought that players or coaches throw games, but I definitely think that execs can control a tanking campaign with trades and other personnel moves. I have zero doubt that's what's going on with the Sabres, and they're not even trying to hide it. And I'm happy about it, even if we don't get McDavid.

The Sabres the greatest stockpile of young talent in the NHL.

The Bills, on the other hand, are the NFL version of Groundhog Day.

One of the infinite benefits of (God willing) having Pegula as owner of the Bills is that he has the balls to approve a strategy like the Sabres are using right now.


:lol:

[Fletch]

Unfortunately the Bills got off to a mirage like 3-0 start in 2011 and fell behind in the "Suck for Luck Sweepstakes"

troll

[Fletch]

Then they have been able to obfuscate who actually decided EJ was the pick (was it Buddy or Whaley? No on knows!) to give Whaley a few additional years of job security by being able to blame his septagenarian rookie GM predecessor.

Actually that's not true. It's only message board fans that actually believe that Whaley knows what he's doing that are saying that. I've posted numerous times links to quotes by Whaley stating that he was the primary reason for the pick.

[Fletch]

I hope Jameis Winston stays at FSU through 2015 (and he claims he wants to).

We obviously don't have a first rounder to draft EJ Manuel's replacement in 2015. So if EJ flops this season (and the odds seem stacked against him), I would definitely jump on the "Suck for Winston" bandwagon next year to get the #1 overall pick in 2016.

I can deal with a 2-14 season if the light at the end of the tunnel is Winston. It would guarantee a dozen years of playoff/championship caliber football. Fair trade.

Let's see if you get the rash of siht from everyone insisting that you want us to lose.

FWIW I agree with you.

[The Jokeman]

We should've got Luck, Adrian Peterson, Patrick Willis, Reggie Wayne, Jimmy Graham, Darrelle Revis, Logan Mankins, Roos, Evans, yada ya...

http://www.buffalobills.com/team/roster.html

There's your team for 2014, deal with it.

Or what about drafting McKinnie instead of BIG Mike Williams or Osi Umenyiora instead of Chris Kelsay or Brian Orakpo instead of Aaron Maybin or Daren Howard instead of Erik Flowers or DRC instead of Leodis McKelvin or Vincent Jackson instead of Roscoe Parrish. So many times we've taken guys but guys taken in the same draft and same round have become so much better players and to me that falls on the scouts/coaching staff of this team. It's easy to call a single player a bust but if you follow trends we've missed on more than we hit which tells me our scouting is inferior.

[Mike]

No professional is going to throw games on purpose across a whole season. They have their careers and reputations on the line, and if they aren't always trying to win, they have no business being in the business.

You really think that coaches and players are willing to lose games to have the opportunity to acquire a player in the draft? A good deal of those guys are fired when the player comes to town anyway...and then they are devalued at their profession on top of that.

Stupid concept.

Your completely missing the point.

Why do you think the Texans went 2-14 last season???

Mind you, that they started 2-0 and came off of being one of the best teams the season before???
They have talent! Any idea???

It's because of human psychology:
1) they stopped believing in philosophy of team
2) players began playing selfish or according to their 'ideas' not team philosophy
3) Team played like a collection of parts not as a unit.
4) Began to lose and blame each other
5) Lost complete faith in system and teammates.
6) Began giving marginal effort to protect vs injury.
7) Players were going to be statistically effected regardless of effort because of teammates play.

=== This is all you need to get a 14-2 team to go 2-14 the next season!

Now take a team devoid of talent, that knows it's not a SB contender, and throw a few curveballs and they too will tank. It's not like the Bills are full of future HOF players and team leaders who could ride the ship or a coach that knows how to navigate and motivate his team.

If this can happen to a 14-2 SB contending team, then why not a team like the Bills? No one Needs to throw any games! A little manipulation by an owner is all that is needed.

[Mike]

I've never thought that players or coaches throw games, but I definitely think that execs can control a tanking campaign with trades and other personnel moves. I have zero doubt that's what's going on with the Sabres, and they're not even trying to hide it. And I'm happy about it, even if we don't get McDavid.

The Sabres the greatest stockpile of young talent in the NHL.

The Bills, on the other hand, are the NFL version of Groundhog Day.

One of the infinite benefits of (God willing) having Pegula as owner of the Bills is that he has the balls to approve a strategy like the Sabres are using right now.

I have heard GMa saying that often a team really needs to tank before it can re-build.

Being mediocre is worse.... It's like a walking zombie- it's dead, but shows signs of life. You have to much invested not to see if it goes anywhere and this is what the bills have been, a Walking Zombie

[The Jokeman]

I have heard GMa saying that often a team really needs to tank before it can re-build.

Being mediocre is worse.... It's like a walking zombie- it's dead, but shows signs of life. You have to much invested not to see if it goes anywhere and this is what the bills have been, a Walking Zombie

That or be in position to grab a superior talent at a position they need to improve on. As everyone remembers that Luck and RGIII were great rookies but no one remembers that the Colts were a perennial playoff team player to the year they lost Peyton, yes Manning played a part in that but and the Redskins had to give up tons to be in position to draft RGIII. By contrast the Bills were a horrible team that traded down not up to get our QB of the future. Yet it wasn't a bad move as allowed us to get Woods/Alonzo depending how you want to spin it. I know I'm in the minority to be positive about EJ but I look at the overall picture and to me I think we're building something this time instead of just spinning our proverbial wheels. I sure hope I'm right if not I'll go back to the realistic me that used to point out every draft we always failed to take O-lineman every year of the draft when screamed for us to take the best LT prospect available. Yet we might have done so this year but somehow we ended up with him with our 7th Round pick.

[Mace]

Your completely missing the point.

Why do you think the Texans went 2-14 last season???

Mind you, that they started 2-0 and came off of being one of the best teams the season before???
They have talent! Any idea???

It's because of human psychology:
1) they stopped believing in philosophy of team
2) players began playing selfish or according to their 'ideas' not team philosophy
3) Team played like a collection of parts not as a unit.
4) Began to lose and blame each other
5) Lost complete faith in system and teammates.
6) Began giving marginal effort to protect vs injury.
7) Players were going to be statistically effected regardless of effort because of teammates play.

=== This is all you need to get a 14-2 team to go 2-14 the next season!

Now take a team devoid of talent, that knows it's not a SB contender, and throw a few curveballs and they too will tank. It's not like the Bills are full of future HOF players and team leaders who could ride the ship or a coach that knows how to navigate and motivate his team.

If this can happen to a 14-2 SB contending team, then why not a team like the Bills? No one Needs to throw any games! A little manipulation by an owner is all that is needed.

Really good post.

I wouldn't be in favor of it though, even in retrospect for Luck. It's too iffy. Injuries, system, loss of public goodwill in a place like Buffalo. Any one of those rears it's head, or any combination, you essentially shot off your foot for a year for nothing.

I'd feel even less good about it here in Buffalo, because let's face it, things never quite work out well here despite whatever intent.

[JoeMama]

Let's see if you get the rash of siht from everyone insisting that you want us to lose.

FWIW I agree with you.

I won't. I think I'm known as the hopelessly sentimental type around here. I'm more a disappointed romantic than a pessimist.

But point well taken.

[YardRat]

I've never been in favor of manipulating a losing season for draft position, and the Sabres analogy is waaaaaay too early to consider it a valid supporting argument. That 'proof' is still a couple of seasons down the road.

I hope for every Sabres fan's sake that the 'Pegula knows what it takes to build a winner because he's tearing everything down and building from scratch' works out a lot better than 'The Sabres are going to win the Cup because Pegs is loaded and is going to spend money, woo-hoo!'

The draft is too much of a crapshoot, and we sure don't have to re-visit how many 'sure thing' first-round QBs have been busts for the zillionth time.

[Mr. Pink]

There are certain years to do it.

The Colts did it twice and now minus one season will be a playoff caliber team for 25-30 consecutive seasons.

That type of QB though doesn't come out every year. People like Mariota but I don't know if he's a guy you want to blow a season on to get and build around. People like Winston for '16, don't know if he's the guy you want to blow a season for either.

Sucking for Luck would have been the right play. And once your team is officially eliminated from the playoffs actually trying to win football games should be abandoned. Try new things, have some fun, never punt, go for 2 all the time, kick more onside kicks than most teams. Treat it like another preseason where Ws and Ls don't matter but it's all about evaluating talent.

Some people seem to think that you need to win meaningless football games in week 16 to build character for the next season. None of that matters. And if you still are of that mentality, look at the Bills for the past 15 years now. Every year they pick up one meaningless victory that costs them draft position and the chance at selecting a better player.

Be it a victory that cost the team Roethlisberger or a victory that cost the team Patrick Willis.

[feldspar]

Your completely missing the point.



No I'm not.

[Fletch]

Or what about drafting McKinnie instead of BIG Mike Williams or Osi Umenyiora instead of Chris Kelsay or Brian Orakpo instead of Aaron Maybin or Daren Howard instead of Erik Flowers or DRC instead of Leodis McKelvin or Vincent Jackson instead of Roscoe Parrish. So many times we've taken guys but guys taken in the same draft and same round have become so much better players and to me that falls on the scouts/coaching staff of this team. It's easy to call a single player a bust but if you follow trends we've missed on more than we hit which tells me our scouting is inferior.

Or Russell Wilson instead of TJ Graham when you have a desperate need for QB.

Oh yeah, just as with Manuel, they thought they had found their QB since they paid him through the nose, ... Fitzpatrick.

I forget, who was the top person in charge of personnel again? Oh yeah, it was Whaley. Took me a minute.

[Fletch]

There are certain years to do it.

The Colts did it twice and now minus one season will be a playoff caliber team for 25-30 consecutive seasons.

That type of QB though doesn't come out every year. People like Mariota but I don't know if he's a guy you want to blow a season on to get and build around. People like Winston for '16, don't know if he's the guy you want to blow a season for either.

Sucking for Luck would have been the right play. And once your team is officially eliminated from the playoffs actually trying to win football games should be abandoned. Try new things, have some fun, never punt, go for 2 all the time, kick more onside kicks than most teams. Treat it like another preseason where Ws and Ls don't matter but it's all about evaluating talent.

Some people seem to think that you need to win meaningless football games in week 16 to build character for the next season. None of that matters. And if you still are of that mentality, look at the Bills for the past 15 years now. Every year they pick up one meaningless victory that costs them draft position and the chance at selecting a better player.

Be it a victory that cost the team Roethlisberger or a victory that cost the team Patrick Willis.

Good QBs come out every several years.

The problem is that when you have a staff that cannot even identify that the QB you have sucks, Fitzpatrick, and then leap frogs a guy like Wilson two years ago in favor of a one-dimensional WR that you really didn't need, it's simple idiocy.

There are so many examples of that with this team. They draft like stoned kids in a candy shop, not like professional scouts and personnel guys trying to build a team over three or four years like Polian did.

This team always seems to be forced to draft a QB when there are not any good ones available. Then apologist fans mimic "who else was available." Well, if you wait until a season when there are either one or two good free agents and/or a draft that has several good prospects, then you have availability.

The problem is that this team has no vision or long-term strategy behind what they do. It shows on the field.

[better days]

Or what about drafting McKinnie instead of BIG Mike Williams or Osi Umenyiora instead of Chris Kelsay or Brian Orakpo instead of Aaron Maybin or Daren Howard instead of Erik Flowers or DRC instead of Leodis McKelvin or Vincent Jackson instead of Roscoe Parrish. So many times we've taken guys but guys taken in the same draft and same round have become so much better players and to me that falls on the scouts/coaching staff of this team. It's easy to call a single player a bust but if you follow trends we've missed on more than we hit which tells me our scouting is inferior.

In retrospect, the Bills should not have drafted Mike Williams or McKinnie at that spot, there were much better players available than both of them, just not at that position.

[Ingtar33]

So was I.

The Sabres seem to have adopted this strategy.
the sabres seem destined for 2 of the top 5 picks next year... with 2 can't miss great prospects in that draft... it will be an exciting lottery.

[Mike]

There are certain years to do it.

The Colts did it twice and now minus one season will be a playoff caliber team for 25-30 consecutive seasons.

That type of QB though doesn't come out every year. People like Mariota but I don't know if he's a guy you want to blow a season on to get and build around. People like Winston for '16, don't know if he's the guy you want to blow a season for either.

Sucking for Luck would have been the right play. And once your team is officially eliminated from the playoffs actually trying to win football games should be abandoned. Try new things, have some fun, never punt, go for 2 all the time, kick more onside kicks than most teams. Treat it like another preseason where Ws and Ls don't matter but it's all about evaluating talent.

Some people seem to think that you need to win meaningless football games in week 16 to build character for the next season. None of that matters. And if you still are of that mentality, look at the Bills for the past 15 years now. Every year they pick up one meaningless victory that costs them draft position and the chance at selecting a better player.

Be it a victory that cost the team Roethlisberger or a victory that cost the team Patrick Willis.

Only Very Good Teams need to build character via winning and the Character they are building isnt by winning meaningless games in week 17.

The only way to build character by winning is by winning tough games, in critical positions, against great competition. The 49ers learned to beat the Cowboys in the early 1980's to go on to win SBs. Then in the 1990's the Cowboys had to learn to beat the 49ers to win SBs. In 2000's the Colts had to beat the Pats... and so on it goes! Certain great teams were never able to overcome the hump: 90's Bills teams, 70's Cowboys, 60/70's Vikings, 2000's Eagles, etc...

Now, we should all know that this current Bills team is not in contention for a SB anytime soon. Building Character via meaningful wins is useless with such a team.

[Night Train]

A week ago, he endorsed Johnny Football.

I'm guessing he has no idea.

Next thread.

[The Jokeman]

In retrospect, the Bills should not have drafted Mike Williams or McKinnie at that spot, there were much better players available than both of them, just not at that position.

How many years did McKinnie man LT for the Vikings? In retrospect sure the best player to draft at that spot was likely John Henderson but if going solely on position for position analysis it's why I brought up McKinnie.

[The Jokeman]

Good QBs come out every several years.

The problem is that when you have a staff that cannot even identify that the QB you have sucks, Fitzpatrick, and then leap frogs a guy like Wilson two years ago in favor of a one-dimensional WR that you really didn't need, it's simple idiocy.

There are so many examples of that with this team. They draft like stoned kids in a candy shop, not like professional scouts and personnel guys trying to build a team over three or four years like Polian did.

This team always seems to be forced to draft a QB when there are not any good ones available. Then apologist fans mimic "who else was available." Well, if you wait until a season when there are either one or two good free agents and/or a draft that has several good prospects, then you have availability.

The problem is that this team has no vision or long-term strategy behind what they do. It shows on the field.

That was the first well thought out post from you that I have read. I'll give you kudos for it. That said I think you're being too hard on EJ as to me he shows some of the things I look for in a QB. More specifically he shows he can sustain drives and is looking to pass first and doesn't look to run if the play breaks down. Does he have to improve? Sure but again if he can be a game manager type QB and complete 60% of his passes get about 3200 yards passing and toss 20 TDs vs 10 INTs I think we could be headed in the right direction. As I'm never looking for him to put up elite numbers but think he can be an average guy who can get you to the playoffs with a strong defense which I think we have this year.

[Mike]

Whose the best QB in 2017 draft?

[ICRockets]

Whose the best QB in 2017 draft?

Probably DeShaun Watson from Clemson, so we'll trade all our picks to move from #2 to #1 and pick him.

[WagonCircler]

Whose the best QB in 2017 draft?

Let's clarify. What college QB will make the best NFL QB.

There's a significant difference.

[Thurmal]

Let's clarify. What college QB will make the best NFL QB.

There's a significant difference.
Thank. You. That means a poised pocket QB that is accurate and can read defenses. I do not care about his 40-time or elusiveness when running the ball. Those are attributes important for WRs and RBs, not QBs.

[Ginger Vitis]

Bomb for DeShone

[Mr. Miyagi]

Let's clarify. What college QB will make the best NFL QB.

There's a significant difference.
I agree. Watson is the same guy as Tyrod.

[Ginger Vitis]

I agree. Watson is the same guy as Tyrod.

No hes not

[Mr. Pink]

I agree. Watson is the same guy as Tyrod.

How so?

There's a reason why Watson will likely be the first overall pick and Tyrod wasn't picked until the 6th round.

Of course Watson also actually *gasp* throws the ball over the middle.