Public Stadium Funding

[WagonCircler]

Whenever the prospect of publicly funding a new stadium comes up, whiners come out of the woodwork.

According to John Wawrow of the AP, in a Buffalo Rumblings podcast, the State of New York collects $20 MIL in taxes annually from player salaries.

Obviously, if the Bills were to move to some hellhole like Toronto, the state would lose that money.

So, if NY were to partially fund a stadium, it could be considered a revenue generator. A taxpayer contribution of $400 MIL would be recouped over a 20 year lease on player salaries alone, and that's not adjusting for constantly escalating salaries.

[Fletch]

LMAO

So now anyone looking at the state's ability to contribute anything significant in today's economy is a whiner.

You just can't make this crap up.

I suppose that Erie County has a pot of gold that none of us knows about. Otherwise, clearly they're broke for all intents and purposes.

You know who the whiners are to me, it's those that whine about other fans outside the context of the discussion when the fans have no control over the situation.

[WagonCircler]

I suppose that Erie County has a pot of gold that none of us knows about..

Yes, his name is Son of Mario.

He couldn't care less what he spends. Ever heard of the Buffalo Billion?

You must have the suicide hotline on speed dial, Felch. Things are going VERY poorly for you and your gay glam rock hero Bon Jovi.

The Bills will be purchased by Terry Pegula.

Suck it.

[Dr. Lecter]

I have brought up the income tax issue before.

I am not sure if he included the income taxes paid by coaches, stadium workers, etc either. Or sales tax collected at the games or on things people buy for games.

It won't pay for it all, but it also not like this team does not generate revenue for the state and county.

[Dr. Lecter]

Yes, his name is Son of Mario.

He couldn't care less what he spends. Ever heard of the Buffalo Billion?

You must have the suicide hotline on speed dial, Felch. Things are going VERY poorly for you and your gay glam rock hero Bon Jovi.

The Bills will be purchased by Terry Pegula.

Suck it.

So is this thread going south the fault of Blondie and Mr. Blondie too?

[casdhf]

I would rather have my money go to this than some other wasted venture. Welfare for some unemployed dirt bag with 3 kids and an iPhone or a new stadium. Hmmmm. I know where my vote goes.

[WagonCircler]

So is this thread going south the fault of Blondie and Mr. Blondie too?

Well, if you take into account my theory that coastal = Fletch...

[coastal]

Look at the tax revenue!!!!

idiots.

since when did an expenditure's ability to turn a profit be the be-all/end-all of policy making.

its a question of community values.

Buffalo endorses parking lot alcoholism, big corporate entertainment monopolies, and the energy industry's abuse of the citizenry and environment.

Let Pegs pay.

If it's there, spend $1 billion on attracting new industry and jobs to the area.

WNY has a great workforce.

Invest in them... not their distractions.

[gebobs]

Please build the stadium downtown...right over that sorry excuse for a casino. LOL...what a joke. I walked in there last week just to check it out. Not exactly Bond and baccarat, is it? Must be 5000 penny slots. Classy!

[gebobs]

According to John Wawrow of the AP, in a Buffalo Rumblings podcast, the State of New York collects $20 MIL in taxes annually from player salaries.
Really? I'd like to see how that breaks down. I'm not up on all the intricacies of what counts as income for this guy and that, but just a back of the envelope calculation...$20M revenue/$133M cap comes to an effective 15% rate. Neither am I all up on NYS tax rates, but that seems high.

[OpIv37]

Whenever the prospect of publicly funding a new stadium comes up, whiners come out of the woodwork.

According to John Wawrow of the AP, in a Buffalo Rumblings podcast, the State of New York collects $20 MIL in taxes annually from player salaries.

Obviously, if the Bills were to move to some hellhole like Toronto, the state would lose that money.

So, if NY were to partially fund a stadium, it could be considered a revenue generator. A taxpayer contribution of $400 MIL would be recouped over a 20 year lease on player salaries alone, and that's not adjusting for constantly escalating salaries.

The state of New York has an annual operating budget of $90 billion. That's BILLION, with a "B". $20 million a year is essentially nothing. It will not have any effect whatsoever on whether or not the state ponies up for a stadium.

Also, the games cost the government money. Wear and tear on the roads, additional police forces, crowd control, etc. I don't know how those expenses are split between the state, local governments and the team, but the $20 million in income tax isn't pure profit. There are costs associated with it.

[imbondz]

I can't stand the idea that my taxes are going to pay for an NFL stadium. drives me crazy. can't believe anyone would be ok with it, knowing that every single franchise can afford a new stadium

[Dr. Lecter]

Look at the tax revenue!!!!

idiots.

since when did an expenditure's ability to turn a profit be the be-all/end-all of policy making.

its a question of community values.

Buffalo endorses parking lot alcoholism, big corporate entertainment monopolies, and the energy industry's abuse of the citizenry and environment.

Let Pegs pay.

If it's there, spend $1 billion on attracting new industry and jobs to the area.

WNY has a great workforce.

Invest in them... not their distractions.

Oh for God's sake.

Nobody said that it was the be all/end all. What people are trying to say is that the investment (if it is made) is not without value or a ROI. It is not like flushing money down the drain. It is not a zero sum game, where the money is thrown out.
I would much rather have the new owner pay as well. Don't get me wrong. But it is not like the state and area does not have a reason for this team to stay. It is not quite as simple as let the team go and magically invest in the area.

And yeah - there is a great workforce in the area. It would be great if they continue to invest in it. Of course, they can do more of that with having an actual NFL team in the state providing income to the state coffers.

So while it is not just about how much money the state makes, that is also part of the decision and can counter the idea that spending this money is a empty gesture that generates only positives for the billionaire.

[SpikedLemonade]

If a new stadium is ever built in Buffalo, it will only be with 60% public financing.

It appears there is no owner willing to spend $1B on the Bills so to expect an owner to spend $400M of his own money on a stadium is naive.

[coastal]

Oh for God's sake.

Nobody said that it was the be all/end all. What people are trying to say is that the investment (if it is made) is not without value or a ROI. It is not like flushing money down the drain. It is not a zero sum game, where the money is thrown out.
I would much rather have the new owner pay as well. Don't get me wrong. But it is not like the state and area does not have a reason for this team to stay. It is not quite as simple as let the team go and magically invest in the area.

And yeah - there is a great workforce in the area. It would be great if they continue to invest in it. Of course, they can do more of that with having an actual NFL team in the state providing income to the state coffers.

So while it is not just about how much money the state makes, that is also part of the decision and can counter the idea that spending this money is a empty gesture that generates only positives for the billionaire.i get that.

thanks for the long winded explanation of the obvious.

[Saratoga Slim]

If you're asking New York State/Erie County to look at this from an 'investment' perspective, that assumes we're talking about a zero sum game (build a new stadium and the Bills stay, or don't and they leave).

There's a legitimate question of whether a new stadium would actually bring in significantly more revenue for the Bills (and consequently whether it would bring in any more tax revenue for the state). From a perspective of income tax revenue on players' salaries, it wouldn't, as salaries are cap driven. And from a team income perspective, we already sell out almost every game, and who knows whether there is any more corporate money to tap in Buffalo.

So unless there's some factor that requires the Bills to build a new stadium in order to stay in Buffalo, arguing that NYS/Erie County is ignoring the income revenue doesn't really make sense. The state and county's position is essentially that they can continue to receive the same tax income (escalating slowly with cap increases and rising league revenue sharing payouts) without gambling a huge sum of money on the chance that they might eventually make slightly more.

[WagonCircler]

If you're asking New York State/Erie County to look at this from an 'investment' perspective, that assumes we're talking about a zero sum game (build a new stadium and the Bills stay, or don't and they leave).

There's a legitimate question of whether a new stadium would actually bring in significantly more revenue for the Bills (and consequently whether it would bring in any more tax revenue for the state). From a perspective of income tax revenue on players' salaries, it wouldn't, as salaries are cap driven. And from a team income perspective, we already sell out almost every game, and who knows whether there is any more corporate money to tap in Buffalo.

So unless there's some factor that requires the Bills to build a new stadium in order to stay in Buffalo, arguing that NYS/Erie County is ignoring the income revenue doesn't really make sense. The state and county's position is essentially that they can continue to receive the same tax income (escalating slowly with cap increases and rising league revenue sharing payouts) without gambling a huge sum of money on the chance that they might eventually make slightly more.

Or it can lose the team and say goodbye to all future player income tax revenue.

But I guess NY state and Erie County are pretty used to that, right?

Good plan.

[OpIv37]

Or it can lose the team and say goodbye to all future player income tax revenue.

But I guess NY state and Erie County are pretty used to that, right?

Good plan.

Ok, one more time: a state with a $90 billion annual budget is not going to make long term infrastructure decisions based on $20 million in income tax revenue. It is 0.0002 percent of their annual budget.

Think of it this way: it would be like you fretting over the decision to put an addition on your house because once the addition is there, your property tax would go up by 75 cents a year.

[swiper]

Or it can lose the team and say goodbye to all future player income tax revenue.

But I guess NY state and Erie County are pretty used to that, right?

Good plan.

Not everyone in Erie County is a football fan. Those people see it very differently.

[justasportsfan]

I think the taxes made from alcohol sales alone tops 20 million / game. Could've been more if the canadian fans weren't buying from their duty free.

[Homegrown]

$10 "head tax" on every Canuckian crossing the border on game day, eh?

[Bill Cody]

Or it can lose the team and say goodbye to all future player income tax revenue.

But I guess NY state and Erie County are pretty used to that, right?

Good plan.

This is so tiresome. So the bidders for the Bills are only in this under the assumption they get their money handed right back to them in the form of a new stadium? Please. The whole hostage taking nonsense billionaire's used to be able to get away with for corporate welfare in the form of gift stadiums is over. Most of the money for a new stadium is going to come out of the new owner's (probably Peg) billfold as it should.

[SpikedLemonade]

$10 "head tax" on every Canuckian crossing the border on game day, eh?

Make it $40.00.

Anything to piss us off up here so that we stop filling 1/5th of the Ralph.

Personally, I already see less interest in the Bills up here over the past 10 years and hopefully it continues so you unappreciative crap stains can be left to support the Bills alone.

I will hate the black outs, but I will figure out alternatives.

[WagonCircler]

This is so tiresome. So the bidders for the Bills are only in this under the assumption they get their money handed right back to them in the form of a new stadium? Please. The whole hostage taking nonsense billionaire's used to be able to get away with for corporate welfare in the form of gift stadiums is over. Most of the money for a new stadium is going to come out of the new owner's (probably Peg) billfold as it should.

Ummm, no.

Do you think $400 MIL is going to build a new stadium?

What I'm saying is that a combination of public and private funding would not be a net loss for the State, as, unlike most public expenditures, there is a very reasonable expectation that a stadium would generate ROI.

$400 MIL from NY, plus a combination of funding from Delaware North, the NFL, Terry Pegula and other sources would make this very achievable.

Ralph Wilson Stadium/Rich Stadium paid fort itself many times over during the Bills tenure there, from lease payments to concession money for the County when they ran concessions.

Or we could just do what WNY has done since the 1970s--wave goodbye and watch entire industries move away.

BTW, the bidders for the team are all but guaranteed their money back from a combination of TV revenue and escalating franchise values. And Terry Pegula is the only thing standing between Buffalo keeping this team or losing it. He will have done more than his part at the end of this.

[stuckincincy]

Make it $40.00.

Anything to piss us off up here so that we stop filling 1/5th of the Ralph.

Personally, I already see less interest in the Bills up here over the past 10 years and hopefully it continues so you unappreciative crap stains can be left to support the Bills alone.

I will hate the black outs, but I will figure out alternatives.

OTOH, we could apply the same rules about employment. Canadians cross daily and earn a living in WNY, yet if you are an American citizen, you can only get employment in Canada if - after a lengthy study - the Canadian government determines that you have a skill no Canadian has.

Or the US might demand that Canadian truckers adhere to US law and keep the same log book, and not be able to drive hours on end.

The US might demand that like Canada does, hazardous shipments must be cleared first, and limited to only a few ports on entry.

Or the US might stop Canadians who pour over the bridges to see if they are importing goods into Canada without proof of notifying the Canadian authorities of their intent when they return, and are paying legal Canadian import duties, so that your border guards don't wink at violation of Canadian laws.

Forcing US pharmaceutical companies to give your health junta drugs that Americans have to pay 100X or more, saying if you don't, you can't sell toothpaste here. All the time not carring about a healthy cottage industry that re-imports to the States at incredible profit.

Or we might take action about how Ontario reduced their drinking age to 18 after chiding us when theirs was 21, a ploy to induce US drinkers to head North. Canada..it's all about the Loonies, isn't it?

Canadians are SO selfish... :pimped:

[WagonCircler]

With Canada, it's all about the Loonies.

Truer words...

[stuckincincy]

Truer words...

I recall when I was a lad...more than a half a century ago...being turned back from crossing because I couldn't produce a five dollar bill from my wallet. Told that I might be a vagrant. Ya right - not enough $ to spend in Canada. The entry fee escalated to a twenty as the years wore on.

[sukie]

So the state. which is the residents , should fork over hundres of millions to preserve the jobs of millionaires so that they can be taxed in the future? And we can drink?

[SpikedLemonade]

OTOH, we could apply the same rules about employment. Canadians cross daily and earn a living in WNY, yet if you are an American citizen, you can only get employment in Canada if - after a lengthy study - the Canadian government determines that you have a skill no Canadian has.

Or the US might demand that Canadian truckers adhere to US law and keep the same log book, and not be able to drive hours on end.

The US might demand that like Canada does, hazardous shipments must be cleared first, and limited to only a few ports on entry.

Or the US might stop Canadians who pour over the bridges to see if they are importing goods into Canada without proof of notifying the Canadian authorities of their intent when they return, and are paying legal Canadian import duties, so that your border guards don't wink at violation of Canadian laws.

Forcing US pharmaceutical companies to give your health junta drugs that Americans have to pay 100X or more, saying if you don't, you can't sell toothpaste here. All the time not carring about a healthy cottage industry that re-imports to the States at incredible profit.

Or we might take action about how Ontario reduced their drinking age to 18 after chiding us when theirs was 21, a ploy to induce US drinkers to head North. Canada..it's all about the Loonies, isn't it?

Canadians are SO selfish... :pimped:

There was a time when the above meant something.

Threats from a dying economic power just don't carry much fear these days.

We like the Chinese.

[OpIv37]

Ummm, no.

Do you think $400 MIL is going to build a new stadium?

What I'm saying is that a combination of public and private funding would not be a net loss for the State, as, unlike most public expenditures, there is a very reasonable expectation that a stadium would generate ROI.



Except that what you are saying is not supported by the facts you are presenting. You provided one source of revenue- income tax from the players. You provided one expenditure for the state: it's share of construction costs.

The reality is that the issue is much more complex. There are both ongoing expenditures and additional revenue streams that you are neglecting.

In fact, many communities that used taxpayer money for stadiums have found that the stadiums led to a much lower ROI than they anticipated going in. Some have even resulted in a net financial loss for the city/state.

You are oversimplifiying the issue to make the outcome you want seem more likely.

[stuckincincy]

Except that what you are saying is not supported by the facts you are presenting. You provided one source of revenue- income tax from the players. You provided one expenditure for the state: it's share of construction costs.

The reality is that the issue is much more complex. There are both ongoing expenditures and additional revenue streams that you are neglecting.

In fact, many communities that used taxpayer money for stadiums have found that the stadiums led to a much lower ROI than they anticipated going in. Some have even resulted in a net financial loss for the city/state.

You are oversimplifiying the issue to make the outcome you want seem more likely.

Investigate the B'gals stadium debacle...

[stuckincincy]

There was a time when the above meant something.

Threats from a dying economic power just don't carry much fear these days.

We like the Chinese.

The true feelings of Spiked Lemonade is displayed.

[jimmifli]

OTOH, we could apply the same rules about employment. Canadians cross daily and earn a living in WNY, yet if you are an American citizen, you can only get employment in Canada if - after a lengthy study - the Canadian government determines that you have a skill no Canadian has.

Or the US might demand that Canadian truckers adhere to US law and keep the same log book, and not be able to drive hours on end.

The US might demand that like Canada does, hazardous shipments must be cleared first, and limited to only a few ports on entry.

Or the US might stop Canadians who pour over the bridges to see if they are importing goods into Canada without proof of notifying the Canadian authorities of their intent when they return, and are paying legal Canadian import duties, so that your border guards don't wink at violation of Canadian laws.

Forcing US pharmaceutical companies to give your health junta drugs that Americans have to pay 100X or more, saying if you don't, you can't sell toothpaste here. All the time not carring about a healthy cottage industry that re-imports to the States at incredible profit.

Or we might take action about how Ontario reduced their drinking age to 18 after chiding us when theirs was 21, a ploy to induce US drinkers to head North. Canada..it's all about the Loonies, isn't it?

Canadians are SO selfish... :pimped:
WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE C̶H̶I̶L̶D̶R̶E̶N̶ CORPORATIONS!

[WagonCircler]

Except that what you are saying is not supported by the facts you are presenting. You provided one source of revenue- income tax from the players. You provided one expenditure for the state: it's share of construction costs.

The reality is that the issue is much more complex. There are both ongoing expenditures and additional revenue streams that you are neglecting.

In fact, many communities that used taxpayer money for stadiums have found that the stadiums led to a much lower ROI than they anticipated going in. Some have even resulted in a net financial loss for the city/state.

You are oversimplifiying the issue to make the outcome you want seem more likely.

My whole point from the OP is fairly simple, and if you accept the premise (upon which my statement is based) then it's not too complicated.

It's fairly clear that the team will not be able to stay here (see Goodell's comments) without a new stadium.

The state of New York has established a stadium feasibility group with very powerful members.

It's pretty obvious that at some point the 40+ year old stadium the Bills are playing in will be replaced.

My $400 Mil figure was simply an example. Easy math. Could be adjusted up or down.

The main point is, whatever funding the state provides is not without return, even if you just count income tax from player salaries. If you don't believe the $20 MIL per year figure collected by the state is accurate, take it up with John Wawrow and piss off.

Whatever point you're trying to make about ROI in other cities is irrelevant, because that's based on event and operations revenue.

My entire statement is based on Wawrow's comments being accepted as a given. If you can't grasp that, I can't help you.

[OpIv37]

My whole point from the OP is fairly simple, and if you accept the premise (upon which my statement is based) then it's not too complicated.

It's fairly clear that the team will not be able to stay here (see Goodell's comments) without a new stadium.

The state of New York has established a stadium feasibility group with very powerful members.

It's pretty obvious that at some point the 40+ year old stadium the Bills are playing in will be replaced.

My $400 Mil figure was simply an example. Easy math. Could be adjusted up or down.

The main point is, whatever funding the state provides is not without return, even if you just count income tax from player salaries. If you don't believe the $20 MIL per year figure collected by the state is accurate, take it up with John Wawrow and piss off.

Whatever point you're trying to make about ROI in other cities is irrelevant, because that's based on event and operations revenue.

My entire statement is based on Wawrow's comments being accepted as a given. If you can't grasp that, I can't help you.
Ok you clearly do not understand. First, like I already said, your figures do not account for all the revenue or expenditures.

Second, even if the $20 million and $400 million figures you used are correct, it would take twenty years for the state to recoup their money and you are assuming:
1. The player income will stay the same or increase over the next 20 years
2. Income tax rates will stay the same or increase over the next 20 years
3. The team will still be in Buffalo for the next 20 years
4. The state will not have to outlay any other capital expenditure relating to the stadium over the next 20 years.

I'll give you 1 and 2. Those are safe assumptions.

3 and 4 are not. Pegula could die, sell the team, go broke, get arrested (I don't think he's a criminal but I do worry about the environmental impact of how he makes his money) etc. The stadium and surrounding roads, parking lots, street lights, etc will undoubtably need work and require additional money, at which point we have a battle over who pays.

You are oversimplifiying the issue. I didn't take issue with the $20 million number because I don't know or care if it's right. The problem is that, contrary to what you claim, even if it is right, it does not guarantee a good ROI for the state. You clearly do not understand how these things work.

[WagonCircler]

Ok you clearly do not understand. First, like I already said, your figures do not account for all the revenue or expenditures.

Second, even if the $20 million and $400 million figures you used are correct, it would take twenty years for the state to recoup their money and you are assuming:
1. The player income will stay the same or increase over the next 20 years
2. Income tax rates will stay the same or increase over the next 20 years
3. The team will still be in Buffalo for the next 20 years
4. The state will not have to outlay any other capital expenditure relating to the stadium over the next 20 years.

I'll give you 1 and 2. Those are safe assumptions.

3 and 4 are not. Pegula could die, sell the team, go broke, get arrested (I don't think he's a criminal but I do worry about the environmental impact of how he makes his money) etc. The stadium and surrounding roads, parking lots, street lights, etc will undoubtably need work and require additional money, at which point we have a battle over who pays.

You are oversimplifiying the issue. I didn't take issue with the $20 million number because I don't know or care if it's right. The problem is that, contrary to what you claim, even if it is right, it does not guarantee a good ROI for the state. You clearly do not understand how these things work.

Jesus Christ. It's a F U Cking message board. Pretty simple post. If the state contributes to new stadium construction and the team stays, it's not like dumping $400 MIL into the Niagara River. There's something in it for them, and for the taxpayers.

Her's how simple it is: If the team goes away, so does $20 MIL per year in income tax revenues.

Just like the millions and millions of tax dollars that have moved to North Carolina and Florida and Arizona with people who have fled the state looking for real jobs.

For once, maybe the state can do something to stop it.


1. The player income will stay the same or increase over the next 20 years
2. Income tax rates will stay the same or increase over the next 20 years

Are you seriously posting, with a straight face, that you think player salaries will decrease?


3. The team will still be in Buffalo for the next 20 years.

You REALLY think they build a Billion dollar stadium without a 30 year lease? You're really not very bright, huh?


4. The state will not have to outlay any other capital expenditure relating to the stadium over the next 20 years..

You don't think they will have to outlay capital on the current 40+ year old stadium? Good God.

[OpIv37]

Jesus Christ. It's a F U Cking message board. Pretty simple post. If the state contributes to new stadium construction and the team stays, it's not like dumping $400 MIL into the Niagara River. There's something in it for them, and for the taxpayers.

Her's how simple it is: If the team goes away, so does $20 MIL per year in income tax revenues.


"Simple" is not the correct word. "Stupid" is the correct word. I don't know what part of this you are not getting: you are not considering all the expenditures and all the revenue. I don't care if it's a message board or not- you are still grossly oversimplifying a very complex issue. $20 million goes away if the team goes away, but so does a **** ton of expenditures. And I don't know what part of this you aren't getting: $20 MILLION IS 0.00002 PERCENT OF THE STATE'S OPERATING BUDGET. It is NOT enough money to affect their decision one way or the other.



Are you seriously posting, with a straight face, that you think player salaries will decrease?

Did you even read my post? I told you they were safe assumptions. If you know anything about analysis and project management, you list ALL the assumptions whether they are safe or not.



You REALLY think they build a Billion dollar stadium without a 30 year lease? You're really not very bright, huh?

You really think a team can't find a way out of a lease?




You don't think they will have to outlay capital on the current 40+ year old stadium? Good God.

They won't have capital outlay at all if the team moves. And you're talking about laying down $400 million and then paying capital expenditures on that. Somehow you magically forgot about your $400 million in up front costs with this comment.

[Gilly]

I can't stand the idea that my taxes are going to pay for an NFL stadium. drives me crazy. can't believe anyone would be ok with it, knowing that every single franchise can afford a new stadium


So the state puts in $500 million. Where does that money go? Pags pocket? Nope. Construction workers, businesses that sell the building material, etc...

No different than than anything the state spends its money on...