WATERFRONT STADIUM & NIAGARA FALLS OUT FOR NEW LOCATIONS FOR NEW STADIUM [Archive] - BillsZone.com

Fletch

08-27-2014, 06:14 AM

I can't envision any way that a new owner (Pegula) would not basically demand a new stadium on land that he can acquire (or may already have) and not lease from the County.

I wonder what that would reduce the cost of a new stadium by. Presumably that land cost is a part of the total cost of the stadium. Not really sure it's all that sizeable though. I mean what, even if land sells for $1M/acre, which I'm sure it doesn't there, we're not talking about all that much in the grand scheme of things, a few percent of the overall cost.

I just wish they'd announce Pegula the winning bidder and let's move on already.

Mace

08-27-2014, 05:39 PM

The state is setting themselves up for negotiations, and this study will give them more rationale for playing a little hardball. Smart, pro-active move by them, actually.

You know it was a surprisingly quick, efficient, forward-looking move by the State in this case. Saves everyone time, and gives the new owner options tacitly endorsed by the State, while giving the State a solid bird's eye view of the best options available to a new Owner.

WagonCircler

08-27-2014, 06:13 PM

Is there enough room there?

http://www.youinweb.com/profiles/14204/perry-projects_332932062.htm

More than enough. They would demolish the projects and buy up the land around them, of which there's plenty, mostly vacant. I posted an aerial map about 3 months ago. I'll see if I can find it.

WagonCircler

08-27-2014, 06:24 PM

Is there enough room there?

http://www.youinweb.com/profiles/14204/perry-projects_332932062.htm

Here's a cut and paste. I think I may have dropped Ralph II on the Casino, but, as you can see, there's also Father Conway Park due South and more projects in the non-hilighted areas. Also plenty of Thruway access with a minimum of infrastructure.

It would put all three Buffalo stadiums within walking distance of each other and would create year round events in the "Stadium District", making it far more attractive for development, which would build on the great progress already begun in Canalside.

I also had a conversation with a Delaware North employee this week who strongly believes that Jacobs will be involved with financing.

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1044x832q90/841/f457.jpg.

gebobs

08-27-2014, 07:11 PM

Please not the Waterfront. Why in the name of Jove would you do that? Reclaim it and make it greenspace. Put the stadium somewhere else.

Mace

08-27-2014, 07:15 PM

Here's a cut and paste. I think I may have dropped Ralph II on the Casino, but, as you can see, there's also Father Conway Park due South and more projects in the non-hilighted areas. Also plenty of Thruway access with a minimum of infrastructure.

It would put all three Buffalo stadiums within walking distance of each other and would create year round events in the "Stadium District", making it far more attractive for development, which would build on the great progress already begun in Canalside.

I also had a conversation with a Delaware North employee this week who strongly believes that Jacobs will be involved with financing.

At your earlier post I attempted hand drawing the stadium over the map in windows paint and it again came out like a child's drawing, so yours came out much better and I have to give credit where credit is due.

Coincidentally, I had a conversation with a Delaware North employee as well earlier today, but the dialogue centered more on compensation for squeegee related maintenance on his vehicle at an intersection so I have nothing to add regarding Jacobs' intent because it wasn't Jacobs who always throws me a few bucks and a sandwich coupon.

gebobs

08-27-2014, 07:27 PM

I think I may have dropped Ralph II on the Casino
Well, the plan has that going for it. I'm on board.

BillsImpossible

08-27-2014, 07:41 PM

Please not the Waterfront. Why in the name of Jove would you do that? Reclaim it and make it greenspace. Put the stadium somewhere else.

Greenspace? Isn't that a fancy way of saying, "empty land?"

Isn't that what already exists?

"Please not the Waterfront."

Why not? If a new stadium was built on the, 'greenspace,' and condos were built around it on the Lake, as they constantly do in Toronto....wouldn't that be of greater benefit to Buffalo than empty land?

SpikedLemonade

08-27-2014, 07:50 PM

What about the people in the projects?

Can we eat them or sell their flesh?

Mace

08-27-2014, 08:17 PM

What about the people in the projects?

Can we eat them or sell their flesh?

Knew some who used to live there, I don't think they'd mind going somewhere else. They are meaning to redevelop it anyway, 150 out of 414 units were unusable last year. It's not a good place to live.

SpikedLemonade

08-27-2014, 08:18 PM

Knew some who used to live there, I don't think they'd mind going somewhere else. They are meaning to redevelop it anyway, 150 out of 414 units were unusable last year. It's not a good place to live.

So them and their children are inedible?

gebobs

08-27-2014, 08:24 PM

Greenspace? Isn't that a fancy way of saying, "empty land?"

Isn't that what already exists?
No. Are you joking? Buffalo destroyed its waterfront over the past century with everything from steel mills that have rendered much of it toxic dump to landfills to disgusting highways. They aren't the only city to have done that. But cities with vision are rethinking that myopic strategy.

The Embarcadero in San Francisco fell amid the earthquake in 1989. It was among the most disgusting examples of bad urban planning leaving much of the city's waterfront mired in gloom beneath the road. When it fell, they never rebuilt it. Now that area is beautiful even despite the baseball stadium.

Have you ever been to Minneapolis? They have huge swaths of greenspace throughout the city. Property around that greenspace has tremendous value.

Look at Buffalo's own Delaware Park. Once a crown jewel of the city until they sliced it in half with the Scajaquada, a scar of asphalt with a name that is just slightly less appealing than its visual aesthetic. Still, the properties in the area are among the most valuable in the city.

"Please not the Waterfront."

Why not? If a new stadium was built on the, 'greenspace,' and condos were built around it on the Lake, as they constantly do in Toronto....wouldn't that be of greater benefit to Buffalo than empty land?
I'll tell you why not. Greenspace would benefit everyone. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_open_space) Not just the billionaire owner, the millionaire babies on the field, and the trash strewing drunken fans that go to eight, no sorry, seven games a year.

Do it as Wagon has it and drop it on that awful casino, fine. But with it, contingencies by governments on all levels and team ownership to invest heavily in the city to rejuvenate the balance of the waterfront and restore it to its glory with greenspace. There's some good efforts already underway and the city needs to keep that momentum going. Buffalo has an historic opportunity for a renaissance. There was good reason why the moneyed folk of NYC made western NY their second homes. It was beautiful and the weather was great in the summer. Let's get that mojo back.

All development is not good. We should have learned that lesson after the wholesale destruction of the parkways, the Delaware mansions, the Olmstead parks, the waterfront, etc. etc. etc. We don't need a big ol' Bass Pro shop. We need to radically rethink the city plan and be careful where we drop this stadium so as not to blow it all up. NYC gets billions and billions to resurrect the WTC. What about resurrecting us?

Mace

08-27-2014, 08:48 PM

So them and their children are inedible?

Absolutely, you're talking lead paint. They aren't those suburban latex paint fed beefsters you have your stand up freezer and George Foreman grill for.

I can tell you haven't eaten around here a while.

DetDannyWilliams

08-27-2014, 08:49 PM

Is there enough room there?

http://www.youinweb.com/profiles/14204/perry-projects_332932062.htm

17021

Mace

08-27-2014, 09:09 PM

17021

Yours came out better too.

http://pad3.whstatic.com/images/thumb/9/96/Draw-a-Perfect-Circle-on-Microsoft-Paint-Step-3.jpg/670px-Draw-a-Perfect-Circle-on-Microsoft-Paint-Step-3.jpg

Any fool can see it fits perfectly if you put a map under it. The arrow is parking.

DraftBoy

08-28-2014, 04:55 AM

More than enough. They would demolish the projects and buy up the land around them, of which there's plenty, mostly vacant. I posted an aerial map about 3 months ago. I'll see if I can find it.

Unless there is a legitimate reason to demolish them and a nice relocation fee being offered you're idea is opening up the City of Buffalo to a massive Fair Housing lawsuit.

k-oneputt

08-28-2014, 05:16 AM

Unless there is a legitimate reason to demolish them and a nice relocation fee being offered you're idea is opening up the City of Buffalo to a massive Fair Housing lawsuit.

Cry me a river. Just build them NEW housing somewhere else. Jeezzuzz "nice relocation fee".

We need our football stadium damn it !

DraftBoy

08-28-2014, 05:36 AM

Cry me a river. Just build them NEW housing somewhere else. Jeezzuzz "nice relocation fee".

We need our football stadium damn it !

It's not that simple. The City of Buffalo is a HUD entitlement community which means they have to sign certifications every year saying they are Affirmatively Furthering Fair Housing which includes (most notably in this case) a persons right to housing choice. You simply can't just build a new project somewhere else and force everybody to move. They have to be given the free choice to do so, additionally the City of Buffalo would need to show (if sued) that they have enough affordable housing (not just Section 8 vouchers or public housing) to house all the residents that would be displaced (which they don't).

Finally they are all entitled to relocation fees that will include a flat rate for moving and insuring all of their belongings in the process and will also include a daily displacement rate, as well some kind of utility and rent cover for the first few months.

Just because somebody is low-income doesn't mean they don't have rights. The northeast is very much the epicenter for Fair Housing issues right now. Restrictive Zoning Laws in Westchester and Nassau Counties, and a very similar plan to tear down projects and just rebuild them in Mt. Holly, New Jersey.

You're talking about a legal battle alone that would take years and delay any stadium construction, not to mention hundreds of thousands in attorney fees.

Maybe Mace is right from the page before and all the residents go willingly because the conditions are abhorrent. I don't live in Buffalo so I can't comment on that.

k-oneputt

08-28-2014, 06:02 AM

If you seen those projects relocating shouldn't be a problem,
but of course I'm sure someone could and would *****.

I've been hearing about the Perry street location for a while for the stdium. I'm sure it can be worked out.
Then again it is Buffalo.

stuckincincy

08-28-2014, 06:30 AM

You're talking about a legal battle alone that would take years and delay any stadium construction, not to mention hundreds of thousands in attorney fees.

Those fees would be many, many, many millions...

Turf

08-28-2014, 06:38 AM

Unless there is a land issue off the thruway just east of Transit rd within 5 miles, I don't see how that cannot be considered. You have easy access, can build new exits off the thruway, they can widen that portion of the thruway. You have a ton of existing commerce and restaurants just west on Niag Falls Blvd, Transit Rd, etc., UB. Easy access, still technically IN Buffalo, literally 40 mins from Rochester, almost the same trek from Canada, and closer to Syracuse as well. The best accessibility and existing environment and location. Foxburough isn't in downtown Boston, who cares.
And lets get it over with, the Western NY Buffalos. This is how you get NYS funding.

sukie

08-28-2014, 07:45 AM

No. Are you joking? Buffalo destroyed its waterfront over the past century with everything from steel mills that have rendered much of it toxic dump to landfills to disgusting highways. They aren't the only city to have done that. But cities with vision are rethinking that myopic strategy.

The Embarcadero in San Francisco fell amid the earthquake in 1989. It was among the most disgusting examples of bad urban planning leaving much of the city's waterfront mired in gloom beneath the road. When it fell, they never rebuilt it. Now that area is beautiful even despite the baseball stadium.

Have you ever been to Minneapolis? They have huge swaths of greenspace throughout the city. Property around that greenspace has tremendous value.

Look at Buffalo's own Delaware Park. Once a crown jewel of the city until they sliced it in half with the Scajaquada, a scar of asphalt with a name that is just slightly less appealing than its visual aesthetic. Still, the properties in the area are among the most valuable in the city.

I'll tell you why not. Greenspace would benefit everyone. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_open_space) Not just the billionaire owner, the millionaire babies on the field, and the trash strewing drunken fans that go to eight, no sorry, seven games a year.

Do it as Wagon has it and drop it on that awful casino, fine. But with it, contingencies by governments on all levels and team ownership to invest heavily in the city to rejuvenate the balance of the waterfront and restore it to its glory with greenspace. There's some good efforts already underway and the city needs to keep that momentum going. Buffalo has an historic opportunity for a renaissance. There was good reason why the moneyed folk of NYC made western NY their second homes. It was beautiful and the weather was great in the summer. Let's get that mojo back.

All development is not good. We should have learned that lesson after the wholesale destruction of the parkways, the Delaware mansions, the Olmstead parks, the waterfront, etc. etc. etc. We don't need a big ol' Bass Pro shop. We need to radically rethink the city plan and be careful where we drop this stadium so as not to blow it all up. NYC gets billions and billions to resurrect the WTC. What about resurrecting us?

"Hank... What about moving to Buffalo? I am reading that they are creating Greenspace all over the place."
"Joanne, Can I make a living up there?
"Hank, housing is really cheap too but more expensive around those snazzy greenspaces... Oh taxes are kinda steep though."
"Joanne, Can I get a good paying job up there?"
"Hank, Look at the waterfront photos here... It's beautiful. And they have a Courtyard by Marriott!"
"Joanne, I need to work you ignorant cow!"

"Oh Hank".
- - - Updated - - -

WagonCircler

08-28-2014, 09:04 AM

Unless there is a legitimate reason to demolish them and a nice relocation fee being offered you're idea is opening up the City of Buffalo to a massive Fair Housing lawsuit.

Projects are a thing of the past. The gov't is placing low income people with Section 8 housing in privately owned properties with subsided rent.

All you need to do is drive through those projects to see that a huge percentage are already vacant and boarded up.

The government is more likely to face a "Fair Housing lawsuit" by keeping people in those death traps.

You act like people are thrilled to be there. You're wrong, as usual.

DraftBoy

08-28-2014, 09:36 AM

If you seen those projects relocating shouldn't be a problem,
but of course I'm sure someone could and would *****.

I have, but the condition of the projects isn't the main issue you face when talking about relocation.

I've been hearing about the Perry street location for a while for the stdium. I'm sure it can be worked out.
Then again it is Buffalo.

I have no doubt it can, but its not as simply as just rebuilding more projects elsewhere.

gebobs

08-28-2014, 09:41 AM

"Hank... What about moving to Buffalo? I am reading that they are creating Greenspace all over the place."
"Joanne, Can I make a living up there?
"Hank, housing is really cheap too but more expensive around those snazzy greenspaces... Oh taxes are kinda steep though."
"Joanne, Can I get a good paying job up there?"
"Hank, Look at the waterfront photos here... It's beautiful. And they have a Courtyard by Marriott!"
"Joanne, I need to work you ignorant cow!"

"Oh Hank".
By all means then, pave over all the Olmsted parks and put up more strip malls so Hank can find a shoe store to work in. They're all crap now anyway. May as well finish what Buffalo's city planners have been doing to them over the past 70 years.

It will be the last great migration. It will be as clear a sign as any that Buffalo has turned out the lights. Yeehaw! Go Bills!

DraftBoy

08-28-2014, 09:44 AM

Projects are a thing of the past. The gov't is placing low income people with Section 8 housing in privately owned properties with subsided rent.

All you need to do is drive through those projects to see that a huge percentage are already vacant and boarded up.

The government is more likely to face a "Fair Housing lawsuit" by keeping people in those death traps.

You act like people are thrilled to be there. You're wrong, as usual.

I'm well aware although Section 8 isn't the direction that they are going in, its going to be RAD based but its a similar principal.

That may be true, but that doesn't mean you can utilize that as justification to demolish the entire project. You still have to deal with the residents that are there which will include housing choice and relocation assistance.

Whoever runs the project (be it private or public) could face a lawsuit for that, but it likely wouldn't come under Fair Housing laws. They don't deal as much with property standards though there are some state level laws (not as familiar with NY's) that do delve into livable conditions.

I never said that, I simply said that there are Fair Housing issues that exist that must be accounted for. A residents willingness to live there or not live there has no bearing on my point. You can't simply take away a low-income residents home and move it somewhere else freely. If the City of Buffalo provides a good relocation option the situation is solved, but its more complicated then just finding more land in another part of town. Their are accessibility and mobility issues to look at, there are job issues, school issues, etc.

And that's all before the new Fair Housing law gets passed next year which compounds the problem even further when you start talking about Racially and Ethnically Concentrated Areas of Poverty (RCAP/ECAP).

Fair Housing isn't likely going to kill a deal on Perry Street, it just needs to be worked out in advance. It's just more complicated then demolishing the project and building the new stadium.

WagonCircler

08-28-2014, 09:50 AM

I have, but the condition of the projects isn't the main issue you face when talking about relocation.

I have no doubt it can, but its not as simply as just rebuilding more projects elsewhere.

Most of them are not being used. And furthermore, they are not in livable condition and would likely not pass building codes. Tearing them down, even if replaced by nothing, would be doing Buffalo a favor.

Do you really think anything about the process of building a $1 BIL stadium is simple? (No, you're just being a dick).

What makes this more simple than almost any other solution is that the group building the stadium would be negotiating with one group, which owns the majority of the land. That group would also happen to be a participant in building the stadium.

But hey, you know a LOT more than the people I've been talking to. They're just landowners in the area around the projects and government officials, and employees of a company that would be interested in actually building a stadium. What would they know?

WagonCircler

08-28-2014, 09:52 AM

Fair Housing isn't likely going to kill a deal on Perry Street, it just needs to be worked out in advance. It's just more complicated then demolishing the project and building the new stadium.

Because I clearly said it would be simple.

Good God.

gebobs

08-28-2014, 09:55 AM

All that area would need to be cleared out and cleaned out. One of the reasons the Braves are moving out of Turner Field is that they don't want their fans walking through slums.

08-28-2014, 10:07 AM

I really liked the article a couple weeks ago that proposed a downtown stadium and included a section of 190 being tunneled. That was probably the best proposal/idea I have ever seen regarding a new stadium. It seemed very well thought out and it all made sense to me.

Turf

08-28-2014, 10:11 AM

WagonCircler

08-28-2014, 10:13 AM

All that area would need to be cleared out and cleaned out. One of the reasons the Braves are moving out of Turner Field is that they don't want their fans walking through slums.

That's one of the things that makes this a no-brainer. It's mostly cleared out (other than the projects). Huge swaths of the surrounding area are abandoned industrial sites ("Brownfields", in gov't speak). And there's a large, underused park (Father Conway Park) that's easily as large as the parking lot in front of RWS.

This is an ugly, ugly area that would accomplish many goals and not take away from the waterfront. And it would build on the momentum of "Pegulaville". Reports in a Buffalo Business magazine have Terry P interested in purchasing the former HSBC tower.

This has the potential to be a great thing for Buffalo, with very little downside.

08-28-2014, 10:29 AM

Yeah, imagine what a nice bomb in a tunnel under a stadium can do. Not for me.
Does a bomb inside a stadium make you feel any better? You can kill any idea/project if you live in fear of terrorism.

gebobs

08-28-2014, 10:30 AM

Reports in a Buffalo Business magazine have Terry P interested in purchasing the former HSBC tower.
Hopefully with the intention of ripping that eyesore down.

gebobs

08-28-2014, 10:33 AM

DraftBoy

08-28-2014, 10:34 AM

Most of them are not being used. And furthermore, they are not in livable condition and would likely not pass building codes. Tearing them down, even if replaced by nothing, would be doing Buffalo a favor.

Again the condition is only part of the issue. You're too narrow focused.

Do you really think anything about the process of building a $1 BIL stadium is simple? (No, you're just being a dick).

I'm attempting to simply provide some detail to what you posted.

But hey, you know a LOT more than the people I've been talking to. They're just landowners in the area around the projects and government officials, and employees of a company that would be interested in actually building a stadium. What would they know?

That's awesome, you should continue talking to them and starting asking them about Fair Housing concerns and the effect the coming AFFH rule could have on the development.

DraftBoy

08-28-2014, 10:36 AM

All that area would need to be cleared out and cleaned out. One of the reasons the Braves are moving out of Turner Field is that they don't want their fans walking through slums.

Fans don't walk through "slums" now, the housing projects are miles away from almost all of the parking. The BS the Braves put out about the "slums" was mildly entertaining but that's not at all why they are leaving. They got an absolutely sweet heart deal from the tax payers of Cobb County. Why wouldn't they go?

gebobs

08-28-2014, 10:48 AM

Fans don't walk through "slums" now, the housing projects are miles away from almost all of the parking. The BS the Braves put out about the "slums" was mildly entertaining but that's not at all why they are leaving.This (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.733158,-84.387021,3a,75y,346.4h,94.58t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1skNIaAJEUMdzkoAKZJ6Vsng!2e0!6m1!1e1) is a block away. This (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.737131,-84.394595,3a,75y,119.04h,76.91t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s0NQnsvWaFtS3Er0Fj4P-yg!2e0) is pretty close to where I usually park.

Calling it "slums" was an exaggeration. Probably on par with the Fillmore-Jefferson-Michigan corridor and the Fruit Belt. It's not so bad in the daytime. The areas around Turner Field and the Georgia Dome are not exactly safe at night though.

They got an absolutely sweet heart deal from the tax payers of Cobb County. Why wouldn't they go?
That sweetheart deal they got was from the county commission. We taxpayers didn't have a say in the matter.

WagonCircler

08-28-2014, 11:00 AM

Hopefully with the intention of ripping that eyesore down.

I've seen some pretty interesting renderings using the armature and "re-cloaking" the building. It's hard to imagine Pegula buying it to tear it down, but I trust him to do something to rehabilitate it.

WagonCircler

08-28-2014, 11:02 AM

That's awesome, you should continue talking to them and starting asking them about Fair Housing concerns and the effect the coming AFFH rule could have on the development.

Hmmm. Let's see. The Stadium commission thinks the area would work. That includes Chuck Schumer. The commission was put together buy Cuomo. I'm pretty sure they have the connections to take care of such a daunting problem.

Maybe they can pay you to be a consultant.

(I just threw up a little in my mouth typing that).

swiper

08-28-2014, 11:17 AM

That's one of the things that makes this a no-brainer. It's mostly cleared out (other than the projects). Huge swaths of the surrounding area are abandoned industrial sites ("Brownfields", in gov't speak). And there's a large, underused park (Father Conway Park) that's easily as large as the parking lot in front of RWS.

This is an ugly, ugly area that would accomplish many goals and not take away from the waterfront. And it would build on the momentum of "Pegulaville". Reports in a Buffalo Business magazine have Terry P interested in purchasing the former HSBC tower.

This has the potential to be a great thing for Buffalo, with very little downside.

What do they do with all the people residing in those buildings?

- - - Updated - - -

Hmmm. Let's see. The Stadium commission thinks the area would work. That includes Chuck Schumer. The commission was put together buy Cuomo. I'm pretty sure they have the connections to take care of such a daunting problem.

Maybe they can pay you to be a consultant.

(I just threw up a little in my mouth typing that).

Was that a Freudian slip?

WagonCircler

08-28-2014, 12:40 PM

What do they do with all the people residing in those buildings?

- - - Updated - - -

Was that a Freudian slip?

Hahaha, yes, it may have been.

Regarding the current denizens of the projects, they place them in private Section 8 housing. Homes owned by private owners who take section 8 assistance. The former residents of the projects would get to choose, then the landlords are reimbursed for rent. You know, like actual people, rather than inmates of Cell Block Perry.

DraftBoy

08-28-2014, 01:34 PM

This (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.733158,-84.387021,3a,75y,346.4h,94.58t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1skNIaAJEUMdzkoAKZJ6Vsng!2e0!6m1!1e1) is a block away. This (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.737131,-84.394595,3a,75y,119.04h,76.91t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s0NQnsvWaFtS3Er0Fj4P-yg!2e0) is pretty close to where I usually park.

Calling it "slums" was an exaggeration. Probably on par with the Fillmore-Jefferson-Michigan corridor and the Fruit Belt. It's not so bad in the daytime. The areas around Turner Field and the Georgia Dome are not exactly safe at night though.

That's not close to a slum, and its not that bad at night either. The Georgia Dome area is far more dangerous than around Turner Field.

That sweetheart deal they got was from the county commission. We taxpayers didn't have a say in the matter.
Yes but you are the ones footing the bill. Still can't believe Chairman Lee got away with it.

WagonCircler

08-28-2014, 03:50 PM

That's not close to a slum, and its not that bad at night either. The Georgia Dome area is far more dangerous than around Turner Field..

No it isn't. You're out of your mind. Where in ATL do you live? Cumming? Alpharetta?

better days

08-28-2014, 03:56 PM

Does a bomb inside a stadium make you feel any better? You can kill any idea/project if you live in fear of terrorism.

With the Security in place at NFL Stadiums now, I would much rather take my chances there than a tunnel.

I have no worries about a bomb at an NFL Stadium at this point.

How do you secure a tunnel short of stopping & searching EVERY SINGLE Vehicle?

08-28-2014, 04:56 PM

With the Security in place at NFL Stadiums now, I would much rather take my chances there than a tunnel.

I have no worries about a bomb at an NFL Stadium at this point.

How do you secure a tunnel short of stopping & searching EVERY SINGLE Vehicle?
Security is a joke. If someone really wanted to bring a bomb into a stadium they could. How secure are our current tunnels and subways? I don't know that the stadium would have to be directly over the tunnel, but if it was, the tunnel would have to be significantly deep and have so much concrete and reinforcing in between the stadium and tunnel for structural load requirements that it's unlikely a bomb would be able to reach the stadium. It may cause some foundation issues, but you would have to have a really powerful bomb. That's not something that people can easily get their hands on or build. I think most of the blast energy would spread through the tunnel.

I just don't see a tunnel in Buffalo suddenly becoming a hot target for terrorism.

better days

08-28-2014, 09:35 PM

Security is a joke. If someone really wanted to bring a bomb into a stadium they could. How secure are our current tunnels and subways? I don't know that the stadium would have to be directly over the tunnel, but if it was, the tunnel would have to be significantly deep and have so much concrete and reinforcing in between the stadium and tunnel for structural load requirements that it's unlikely a bomb would be able to reach the stadium. It may cause some foundation issues, but you would have to have a really powerful bomb. That's not something that people can easily get their hands on or build. I think most of the blast energy would spread through the tunnel.

I just don't see a tunnel in Buffalo suddenly becoming a hot target for terrorism.

Security is no joke. Why would you think it is?

If it were, no doubt an attack would have already happened at an NFL Stadium.

Someone may be able to sneak a SMALL bomb into a Stadium, but even that would be very difficult to do, just about impossible.

No large bombs are getting into a stadium, no car bombs.

08-28-2014, 09:56 PM

Security is no joke. Why would you think it is?

If it were, no doubt an attack would have already happened at an NFL Stadium.

Someone may be able to sneak a SMALL bomb into a Stadium, but even that would be very difficult to do, just about impossible.

No large bombs are getting into a stadium, no car bombs.
I used to help with security at the Georgia Dome when I lived in Atlanta. Stadium security is just some part-time minimum wage employees trying to get people into the stadium as quick as they can and make a few bucks. We're not talking about trained professionals trying to thwart terrorist attacks. You really think there are people out there desperately trying to blow up NFL stadiums, but the only thing stopping them is that they haven't figured out how to get around security?

DraftBoy

08-29-2014, 06:04 AM

No it isn't. You're out of your mind. Where in ATL do you live? Cumming? Alpharetta?

Huh? The Georgia Dome was previously classified as the NFL stadium located in the worst area with the highest risk of crime by the CAP Index. Vine City where the Dome is located is one of the most historical parts of Atlanta but its become a bad area with some of the highest crime and poverty rates in the city. It was ranked the #1 most dangerous area in Atlanta and #5 in the Country in 2010. There has been some good work done through coalition building there but its still not a good area.

better days

08-29-2014, 07:06 AM

I used to help with security at the Georgia Dome when I lived in Atlanta. Stadium security is just some part-time minimum wage employees trying to get people into the stadium as quick as they can and make a few bucks. We're not talking about trained professionals trying to thwart terrorist attacks. You really think there are people out there desperately trying to blow up NFL stadiums, but the only thing stopping them is that they haven't figured out how to get around security?

In what years did you help with security? Things have probably changed since then.

The fact is you can't bring ANYTHING in to an NFL Stadium today unless it is in a clear bag.

And there are obstacles in place to prevent vehicles from getting too close.

And in Buffalo at least, MANY more police have been assigned to work at the Stadium on game days.

08-29-2014, 09:32 AM

In what years did you help with security? Things have probably changed since then.

The fact is you can't bring ANYTHING in to an NFL Stadium today unless it is in a clear bag.

And there are obstacles in place to prevent vehicles from getting too close.

And in Buffalo at least, MANY more police have been assigned to work at the Stadium on game days.
I agree that security has beefed up recently and I'm not trying to be critical of their efforts. I think they do the best they can with the resources they have. I just think if really evil people are determined to do really evil things they can find ways. There's only so much you can do. I personally have never worried about my safety at a sporting event regardless of security measures and I probably never will. Even if I were sitting on top of a tunnel. If they re-routed the tunnel so it wasn't under the stadium or just shifted the location of the stadium in the plans to ease concerns I'm fine with that. I still like the proposal either way.

There are plenty of places and opportunities in this country for people to cause mass casualties if that's their goal. It doesn't stop me from doing anything.

better days

08-29-2014, 09:51 AM

I agree that security has beefed up recently and I'm not trying to be critical of their efforts. I think they do the best they can with the resources they have. I just think if really evil people are determined to do really evil things they can find ways. There's only so much you can do. I personally have never worried about my safety at a sporting event regardless of security measures and I probably never will. Even if I were sitting on top of a tunnel. If they re-routed the tunnel so it wasn't under the stadium or just shifted the location of the stadium in the plans to ease concerns I'm fine with that. I still like the proposal either way.

There are plenty of places and opportunities in this country for people to cause mass casualties if that's their goal. It doesn't stop me from doing anything.

I am with you, you can't live in fear.

I do hate tunnels however. Even a minor accident in a tunnel backs up traffic forever.

notacon

08-29-2014, 11:03 AM

No. Are you joking? Buffalo destroyed its waterfront over the past century with everything from steel mills that have rendered much of it toxic dump to landfills to disgusting highways. They aren't the only city to have done that. But cities with vision are rethinking that myopic strategy.

The Embarcadero in San Francisco fell amid the earthquake in 1989. It was among the most disgusting examples of bad urban planning leaving much of the city's waterfront mired in gloom beneath the road. When it fell, they never rebuilt it. Now that area is beautiful even despite the baseball stadium.

Have you ever been to Minneapolis? They have huge swaths of greenspace throughout the city. Property around that greenspace has tremendous value.

Look at Buffalo's own Delaware Park. Once a crown jewel of the city until they sliced it in half with the Scajaquada, a scar of asphalt with a name that is just slightly less appealing than its visual aesthetic. Still, the properties in the area are among the most valuable in the city.

I'll tell you why not. Greenspace would benefit everyone. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_open_space) Not just the billionaire owner, the millionaire babies on the field, and the trash strewing drunken fans that go to eight, no sorry, seven games a year.

Do it as Wagon has it and drop it on that awful casino, fine. But with it, contingencies by governments on all levels and team ownership to invest heavily in the city to rejuvenate the balance of the waterfront and restore it to its glory with greenspace. There's some good efforts already underway and the city needs to keep that momentum going. Buffalo has an historic opportunity for a renaissance. There was good reason why the moneyed folk of NYC made western NY their second homes. It was beautiful and the weather was great in the summer. Let's get that mojo back.

All development is not good. We should have learned that lesson after the wholesale destruction of the parkways, the Delaware mansions, the Olmstead parks, the waterfront, etc. etc. etc. We don't need a big ol' Bass Pro shop. We need to radically rethink the city plan and be careful where we drop this stadium so as not to blow it all up. NYC gets billions and billions to resurrect the WTC. What about resurrecting us?

What are you talking about when you say..."the moneyed folk of NYC made western NY their second homes"? I've never heard about that....ever.

I get your point, but, there can be both "greenspace" AND a stadium. I believe that it is critical for the city to build a new stadium very close to downtown, and near the waterfront. It's a no brainer.

notacon

08-29-2014, 11:11 AM

Oh...the idea of doing anything with the Orchard Park location is the stupidest idea I have ever heard. I do not think there is a worse location in all of the country for a major league stadium.

I have seen more than half of the NFL stadiums in this country. The most impressive ones are always where the action is...near or directly in downtown and near water if there is some.

Pittsburgh has got to have one of the most impressive locations for their football, and especially their baseball stadium...PNC Park:

17026

When you sit in the stands and see the bridge going over the river, you feel like it was painted there. Walking space between the stadium and river side completes the package.

notacon

08-29-2014, 11:17 AM

08-29-2014, 12:11 PM

Here is Seattle's stadium.

17027

It's very close to their baseball stadium. The skyline is amazing.

Seattle is a crunchy granola as anywhere,and they prize their "greenspace"....but, the downtown area is like a wonderland of activity and urban beauty.

A stadium near the waterfront in Buffalo could revitalize the city and help mitigate the city being the butt of jokes nationwide.
The Browns stadium is right on Lake Erie and seems to have all the same exact issues that a waterfront stadium in Buffalo would have, but for some reason nothing is ever possible in Buffalo.