Merk Has been Channeling My Thoughts Re: the Orton Signing.

[cookie G]

He's right on as far as I'm concerned.

http://www.profootballwarroom.com/

Marrone and Whaley have been around long enough in this league to know what they saw unfolding in front of them through 5 preseason games was unsettling at best. They saw a first team offense they couldn’t score a single TD despite numerous talented skill position players. They also saw a QB making dangerous throws to those skill players putting them in a position to get injured

The fans also saw the same thing and as can be expected the excuses started flowing as they did for Losman, Bledsoe, and Johnson before him. It’s Hackett, it’s the OL, it’s the preseason so its vanilla. Problem was it is none of those things as it hasn’t been in the past. No the problem is EJ Manuel. He has shown no progress from last year to this year and it could actually be argued that he has regressed. He is having trouble executing a vanilla scheme and playbook compounded with an inability to read defenses topped off with erratic at best accuracy. These issues go beyond the preseason and are not all of a sudden going to be cured when the regular season begins and the speed and pressure in the games gets maxed out times 100.


They can talk all they want about how concerned they were about the back up position...but a single TD drive in 5 games for the offense is the real concern.

Orton was brought in to be as much of a relief pitcher as he was a back up.

You can talk all you want about the hope of the light going on for EJ, but how long do you let him drag down and offense the team?


If he continues to play like he did in preseason, expect the change no later than the bye week.


IF EJ gets over his internal doubts and just plays read and shoot..without as much thinking...he can improve his stock tremendously. If not, he's heading right into Edwardsville. Its up to him.

[kingJofNYC]

EJ is toast unless he pulls a Drew Brees type turnaround, which isn't happening because he never displayed that kind of QB talent at the college level. EJ had a loaded FSU roster, and did nothing with it. He's done, now the question is, how soon does new ownership clean house?

Still can't believe Marrone/Whaley put all their chips on EJ, I mean it's unreal how inconsistent he was at FSU, he wasn't good. And yet they went all in with him as first time GM and Head Coach. You may only get one shot, and to bet on EJ as QB....insanity.

[Mr. Pink]

If EJ plays all the way to the bye week, there's no point in taking him out at that point to be honest.

2-6 into the bye and the season is already over...anything better than that and I don't see why you would yank Manuel. Unless somehow the team starts 4-0 and then goes on a 4 game losing streak where they don't score an offensive TD.

If the move to yank Manuel comes it would have to be because this team is 0-4 and they still want to salvage the season.

[Mace]

I feel good about Orton being here, like I said before not so much because he's Orton but because of what he walked into. I read somewhere, Orton is the kind of QB can keep you close to 8-8 if needed, and 8-8 would make me feel not 4-12 or 5-11 or 7-9.

I feel not good about next year if this goes as it seems to me.

Good they got a relief pitcher, and the best one available, if not a savior which was too much to hope for. Maybe this prompts Manuel to a better game. If not, well, I'd throw more money at Orton to be the bridge to the next whoever we won't get next year.

The stuff gets old. But fine, let him relief pitch and at some point enough is enough. I don't think Manuel will stay healthy to the bye week anyway so we'd better have an eye on who will backup our backup until the next time we begin again.

[YardRat]

Sorry, I like some of Merk's stuff when I come across it, but if he thinks the oline or OC's haven't been a problem in the past and it's all about the QB he's way off base.

[The Jokeman]

EJ is toast unless he pulls a Drew Brees type turnaround, which isn't happening because he never displayed that kind of QB talent at the college level. EJ had a loaded FSU roster, and did nothing with it. He's done, now the question is, how soon does new ownership clean house?

Still can't believe Marrone/Whaley put all their chips on EJ, I mean it's unreal how inconsistent he was at FSU, he wasn't good. And yet they went all in with him as first time GM and Head Coach. You may only get one shot, and to bet on EJ as QB....insanity.
We don't need EJ to be Drew Brees to win every week. We need him to be Alex Smith or Eli Manning without the INTs.

[sudzy]

If they want to make the playoffs, Orton will be starting as soon as he learns the playbook.

[DynaPaul]

Totally agree with Merck. At this point it's just lip service to EJ because the kid has deficiencies that shouldn't exist at the NFL level.

[starrymessenger]

If they want to make the playoffs, Orton will be starting as soon as he learns the playbook.
Agreed. And he will quickly be up to speed.
With the talent this team has at the skill positions and with a good D if Orton can game manage as I think he can there is no reason why the Bills should not still be in the picture late in the year.
They had exactly no hope of that before they made this move, so it's all good IMO, very good.

[swiper]

Take that all you Manuel apologists. Bills have recognized and acted on the problem.

Continually blaming other issues and deflecting will fall by the wayside. Now if we could only get our 2015 #1 pick back.

[YardRat]

Take that all you Manuel apologists. Bills have recognized and acted on the problem.

Continually blaming other issues and deflecting will fall by the wayside. Now if we could only get our 2015 #1 pick back.

Are you stating the team brought in Orton to be the starter?

[swiper]

Are you stating the team brought in Orton to be the starter?

You know, I don't care. They are paying him a lot. I think OBD will continue to field Manuel and see what happens. I think if Manuel gets into too much trouble that Marrone would not give him too much rope. If Manuel can manage games, as some posters contend he can do, then I think they will let him play. Just want to see the Bills competitive and winning some games.

[YardRat]

You know, I don't care. They are paying him a lot. I think OBD will continue to field Manuel and see what happens. I think if Manuel gets into too much trouble that Marrone would not give him too much rope. If Manuel can manage games, as some posters contend he can do, then I think they will let him play. Just want to see the Bills competitive and winning some games.

You said the team recognized and acted on the problem. Is that problem a starting QB or a back-up?

[swiper]

You said the team recognized and acted on the problem. Is that problem a starting QB or a back-up?

The QB position is the biggest weakness on an otherwise pretty good roster. Disagree?

[swiper]

http://bills.buffalonews.com/2014/08/30/commentary-by-jerry-sullivan-ejs-situation-rivals-j-p-s/

[justasportsfan]

We don't need EJ to be Drew Brees to win every week. We need him to be Alex Smith this........ Ej playing like Alex Smith could get us to the playoffs. Not the sb though

[Fletch]

EJ is toast unless he pulls a Drew Brees type turnaround, which isn't happening because he never displayed that kind of QB talent at the college level. EJ had a loaded FSU roster, and did nothing with it. He's done, now the question is, how soon does new ownership clean house?

Still can't believe Marrone/Whaley put all their chips on EJ, I mean it's unreal how inconsistent he was at FSU, he wasn't good. And yet they went all in with him as first time GM and Head Coach. You may only get one shot, and to bet on EJ as QB....insanity.

100% correct.

They clearly didn't do their homework on Manuel.

[Fletch]

Totally agree with Merck. At this point it's just lip service to EJ because the kid has deficiencies that shouldn't exist at the NFL level.

Documented deficiencies even. Again, the team didn't do their homework before drafting Manuel and foolishly putting all their eggs into one basket like that.

[Fletch]

If he continues to play like he did in preseason, expect the change no later than the bye week.

The problem is going to be when the offense first goes flat, and it will fairly soon, perhaps even as soon as the home opener against Miami, then the chants for Orton are going to becoming fast and furiously.

It's an uphill battle for Manuel right now, if he doesn't come out of the gates swinging then he's finished here in Buffalo. Neither the fans nor media are going to let it slide at this point.


He has shown no progress from last year to this year and it could actually be argued that he has regressed. He is having trouble executing a vanilla scheme and playbook compounded with an inability to read defenses topped off with erratic at best accuracy. These issues go beyond the preseason and are not all of a sudden going to be cured when the regular season begins and the speed and pressure in the games gets maxed out times 100.

That's obvious to anyone that's paying any attention and doesn't let their bias get in the way.

So at some point soon in the season, Marrone's either going to have to put Orton in or enjoy taking constant heat from media and fans. Hardly a good situation for a 2nd-year head coach to be in.

[imbondz]

Wait a minute, I haven't been following pre-season that much, our first team didn't score 1 TD?

[Fletch]

Wait a minute, I haven't been following pre-season that much, our first team didn't score 1 TD?

Against anyone's 1st-team, that's correct.

[YardRat]

The QB position is the biggest weakness on an otherwise pretty good roster. Disagree?

Yeah, actually I do...I think the Oline is a bigger problem right now than QB.

[imbondz]

Against anyone's 1st-team, that's correct.

that's awesome!!

[sudzy]

Yeah, actually I do...I think the Oline is a bigger problem right now than QB.

At least the OL has 2 solid starters (once Glenn get back up to playing speed.) And three high touted rookies that should get better. It's not like, we drafted Kujo in the second, so were going to force him into being a franchise OT.

[swiper]

Yeah, actually I do...I think the Oline is a bigger problem right now than QB.

Well that right there is someone who really doesn't know much.

You know the personnel. Glenn has been out most of preseason. Williams is new to the team. Henderson is a rookie. Pears is adjusting to a new position. The key is to give them time playing together so they can gel. Marrone told you he had plenty of talent that he liked. He also is an o-line guru (one of the few coaching things he can actually claim). He told you he was going to take preseason to try people at different positions so he could end up with the best five athletes across the line. They have played together in parts of two preseason games. By week 5 they should be fine.

EJ Manuel has not shown ANY progress at all. That should be concerning. Thad Lewis, Dennis Dixon and Jeff Tuel ALL regressed. Something is wrong there. With the signing of Orton, I am much less concerned.

[TacklingDummy]

Sorry, I like some of Merk's stuff when I come across it, but if he thinks the oline or OC's haven't been a problem in the past and it's all about the QB he's way off base.

It's not the OCs or oline fault that EJ throws the ball over the receivers head, at their feet, or takes sacks when he has plenty of time to get rid of the ball.

[jlgarsh]

It's not the OCs or oline fault that EJ throws the ball over the receivers head, at their feet, or takes sacks when he has plenty of time to get rid of the ball.

Don't forget when he runs out of bounds instead of throwing the ball away...I think Orton starts before the end of September.

[YardRat]

Well that right there is someone who really doesn't know much.

You know the personnel. Glenn has been out most of preseason. Williams is new to the team. Henderson is a rookie. Pears is adjusting to a new position. The key is to give them time playing together so they can gel. Marrone told you he had plenty of talent that he liked. He also is an o-line guru (one of the few coaching things he can actually claim). He told you he was going to take preseason to try people at different positions so he could end up with the best five athletes across the line. They have played together in parts of two preseason games. By week 5 they should be fine.

EJ Manuel has not shown ANY progress at all. That should be concerning. Thad Lewis, Dennis Dixon and Jeff Tuel ALL regressed. Something is wrong there. With the signing of Orton, I am much less concerned.

Well, I won't lower myself to your level and take a reciprocating shot at your football intelligence, but you've just outlined the exact scenario why ANY QB would have struggled this preseason for Buffalo. An absent LT, injuries, youth, new players and zero continuity on the offensive line. Like it or not, success starts in the trenches, and there are very few QB's in this league, if any, that could overcome and be even mildly successful with the cluster**** we have put on the field, on the line, thus far this off-season. Ironic, that you're willing to give the oline time to gel, but unwilling to give the QB the same benefit of the doubt.

EVERY SINGLE QB on the Bills roster seemingly regressed this offseason, as you actually pointed out. Do you really think that's coincidental that they all allegedly went to hell at the same time, or could it be there is an all important factor that affected all of them to various yet similar degrees? Do you really think Kyle Orton under center is going to remedy that to any level other than barely negligible? If you do, I can't help you there.

Would a better offensive line make EJ more accurate or give him the ability to read defenses better. Not necessarily, but better protection may make him more comfortable in the pocket and more able to concentrate on where and when to throw the ball instead of being distracted by defensive heat.

[YardRat]

It's not the OCs or oline fault that EJ throws the ball over the receivers head, at their feet, or takes sacks when he has plenty of time to get rid of the ball.

EJ Manuel will never be Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, or Drew Brees. He doesn't have to be, if the defense plays up to expectations and they put any kind of offensive line in front of him. He's going to have bad throws. He's going to be fooled by defenses. He's going to have bad days...every QB does, even the great ones, and there isn't a poster on this board that has made the claim that EJ is going to be 'great'.

[OLDSRIP]

If EJ plays all the way to the bye week, there's no point in taking him out at that point to be honest.

2-6 into the bye and the season is already over...anything better than that and I don't see why you would yank Manuel. Unless somehow the team starts 4-0 and then goes on a 4 game losing streak where they don't score an offensive TD.

If the move to yank Manuel comes it would have to be because this team is 0-4 and they still want to salvage the season.


Im guessing like everyone else. But I suspect that if EJ stinks against the Bears, we may see Orton in week 2.

I think a old bet like Orton can run the O pretty quickly. It will take longer to get timing with the receivers than to learn a game plan. Hopefully their terminology is something close to one of his previous stops.

Im glad and surprised they got him.

[BillsOverDolphins]

smh YardRat you clueless tool. You could have the 92-95 Dallas Cowboys Offensive line and EJ would still be dog-****.

But nevermind all that, what good was drafting one of his kind if he can't scramble/have escapability from a "shaky" line?

[Ingtar33]

Wait a minute, I haven't been following pre-season that much, our first team didn't score 1 TD?

correct. you can count how many 1st downs they got on your fingers and toes as well... 9 quarters of football, less then 20 first downs. It was atrocious to watch.

[Ingtar33]

I think i sorta gave up on EJ and the "preseason means nothing" mantra watching him miss open wr after open wr... and i'm not talking about missing as in throwing the ball to them. i mean not even seeing them. He's looking for "college football" open. you know where the WR has no one within 5 yards of him. if he doesn't see that he won't throw it. He has zero anticipation or trust a WR will break open as well. Its horrendous.

In the last preseason game, against 2nd string scrubs there was a 3rd down play, where the defense was in a 1 deep, man coverage setup, throwing a MLB blitz at the qb, the left WR (i don't know who it was, never saw a replay) blew past the CB who guessed on a short out and completely flubbed the coverage. I mean he flew right past him, EJ wasn't even at the top of his drop back and I was screaming at the tv in exasperation "THROW IT TO HIM!" He never even looked that way. instead he rolled the other way, and threw the ball out of bounds.

what killed me about the play the most was the horrid read of the defense. It was a clear 1 deep zone, man defense look, you could tell before the snap, i mean high school kids can read that defensive look. You could tell presnap... and at the snap the way the one safety headed to the line should have made it clear even to the dimmest of lightbulbs. I would BENCH a qb on my team that missed that read. I mean seriously, the Lions did not disguise that defense at all. WORSE, he had only 1 wr going deep on the play. No one else had a 9 route. That pass should have left his hand before the WR cleared 15 yards down field. hell a good QB would have started his throwing motion by the time the WR was 8 yards down field (that was where he got a step on the CB)

I get trying to get the 11 yards for a first down in 3rd and 11. and that's where EJ went. But as a coach, i can forgive him for taking that shot down field and missing a lot easier then i can forgive the horrid read of that defense. The 11 yard out was covered. Hell the FS gave up playing centerfield and was on that side of the field before EJ even threw the ball. He never even looked off the man the whole route. The line didn't create a moving pocket, EJ rolled himself away from his open receiver. Hell when the WR popped open there wasn't any pressure at all. He had time, an open WR and a defensive look that DEMANDED he atleast LOOK that way. But he didn't. I almost turned the game off at that point (i should have)

[pmoon6]

smh YardRat you clueless tool. You could have the 92-95 Dallas Cowboys Offensive line and EJ would still be dog-****.

But nevermind all that, what good was drafting one of his kind if he can't scramble/have escapability from a "shaky" line?What exactly does that mean?

You mean like an RGIII, Randall Cunningham, Kaepernick, Cam Newton, Michael Vick kind?

Pretty racist comment, if ya ask me.

[pmoon6]

It's too bad that we can't take a QB, even high, and let him develop without the pressure of starting.

Some can start right away, some can't.

[BillsOverDolphins]

What exactly does that mean?

You mean like an RGIII, Randall Cunningham, Kaepernick, Cam Newton, Michael Vick kind?


Exactly. Why else draft him or trade up to reach for him? He certainly didn't/doesn't have any other tangible skill that was worth picking him where we did.

[Historian]

It's too bad that we can't take a QB, even high, and let him develop without the pressure of starting.

Some can start right away, some can't.

Todd Collins.

(I just threw up a little in my mouth)

Rat, I'm inclined to agree with you re: the O line,but he has had time to throw, more often than not.

He has been terrible.

[YardRat]

Todd Collins.

(I just threw up a little in my mouth)

Rat, I'm inclined to agree with you re: the O line,but he has had time to throw, more often than not.

He has been terrible.

As I said, a better performance by the oline isn't going to automatically 'fix' EJ, but it could help to have a little bit of talent and continuity in front of him.

[swiper]

Well, I won't lower myself to your level and take a reciprocating shot at your football intelligence, but you've just outlined the exact scenario why ANY QB would have struggled this preseason for Buffalo. An absent LT, injuries, youth, new players and zero continuity on the offensive line. Like it or not, success starts in the trenches, and there are very few QB's in this league, if any, that could overcome and be even mildly successful with the cluster**** we have put on the field, on the line, thus far this off-season. Ironic, that you're willing to give the oline time to gel, but unwilling to give the QB the same benefit of the doubt.

EVERY SINGLE QB on the Bills roster seemingly regressed this offseason, as you actually pointed out. Do you really think that's coincidental that they all allegedly went to hell at the same time, or could it be there is an all important factor that affected all of them to various yet similar degrees? Do you really think Kyle Orton under center is going to remedy that to any level other than barely negligible? If you do, I can't help you there.

Would a better offensive line make EJ more accurate or give him the ability to read defenses better. Not necessarily, but better protection may make him more comfortable in the pocket and more able to concentrate on where and when to throw the ball instead of being distracted by defensive heat.

Again. You should open your eyes when you look at the TV. The line struggled, but it wasn't as if Manuel's ineptitudes were because he was deluged by rushers each and every play. That notion is patently ridiculous.

[YardRat]

The notion that is ridiculous is completely dismissing the oline shuffle as a non-factor in all of the QB's play this preseason.

There's a reason why all QB's regressed. There's a reason the team had trouble scoring. There's a reason they struggled in the red zone, and there's a reason they couldn't pick up third/fourth and short yardage, and it isn't all EJ.

[notacon]

He's right on as far as I'm concerned.

http://www.profootballwarroom.com/

Marrone and Whaley have been around long enough in this league to know what they saw unfolding in front of them through 5 preseason games was unsettling at best. They saw a first team offense they couldn’t score a single TD despite numerous talented skill position players. They also saw a QB making dangerous throws to those skill players putting them in a position to get injured

The fans also saw the same thing and as can be expected the excuses started flowing as they did for Losman, Bledsoe, and Johnson before him. It’s Hackett, it’s the OL, it’s the preseason so its vanilla. Problem was it is none of those things as it hasn’t been in the past. No the problem is EJ Manuel. He has shown no progress from last year to this year and it could actually be argued that he has regressed. He is having trouble executing a vanilla scheme and playbook compounded with an inability to read defenses topped off with erratic at best accuracy. These issues go beyond the preseason and are not all of a sudden going to be cured when the regular season begins and the speed and pressure in the games gets maxed out times 100.


They can talk all they want about how concerned they were about the back up position...but a single TD drive in 5 games for the offense is the real concern.

Orton was brought in to be as much of a relief pitcher as he was a back up.

You can talk all you want about the hope of the light going on for EJ, but how long do you let him drag down and offense the team?


If he continues to play like he did in preseason, expect the change no later than the bye week.


IF EJ gets over his internal doubts and just plays read and shoot..without as much thinking...he can improve his stock tremendously. If not, he's heading right into Edwardsville. Its up to him.

This is very bad news.

Orton sucks. He has always sucked, and he always will suck.

If he gets the starting position this year, the Bills are really, really screwed. They will be searching for another three or four years for a QB solution.

Orton is not it.

[Mace]

It's too bad that we can't take a QB, even high, and let him develop without the pressure of starting.

Some can start right away, some can't.

Well see, yeah, that's the very thing. Manuel was a project QB. That thought was universal. Oh he had the skills and talent but needed time to learn everyone said.

So we didn't have a QB coach to help with the rookie OC. And we signed a mentor who was going nowhere. And didn't replace him with a vet.

So then we hired a bad QB coach who did poorly with Stafford (said to regress), but coached the fundamentals lacking Lewis. No mentor.

Boom, a mentor competitor under a bad QB coach and a probable lost OC.

They probably did the very worst job of developing a project QB possible, that any witless fool with a thought on how to develop a project QB would sort of immediately know better to not follow unless he was not a project QB.

There's the rub. Whaley and Marrone thought they drafted a project QB who was really polished to them and ready to start. He'd pick up the offense like nothing and step in, perfectly Aaron Rodgers. Whoop, better bring in Kolb. No no, he's ready ! Whoop, cut that Lewis guy, and sign hm....oh Orton !!! Tuel is not that important or we can get him on the practice squad, he wasn't as ready as we thought either when we were protecting them last year.

Downing ! Teach these men the craft like you did Stafford.....

[cookie G]

It's too bad that we can't take a QB, even high, and let him develop without the pressure of starting.

Some can start right away, some can't.

Well..this might be his opportunity to sit for a while and learn.

If he gets replaced by Orton, during the season, I still don't consider it a death shot. Much of that depends on how he handles the adversity. Young pitchers get sent down to the minors all the time.

I just know you can't lead one TD drive in 5 games and expect to start. And there were many opportunities to score.

[Mr. Pink]

It's too bad that we can't take a QB, even high, and let him develop without the pressure of starting.

Some can start right away, some can't.

Yeah it's too bad this is the 2014 NFL where other teams can find QBs who can go in and start right away and look competent.

Not the 1984 NFL when you can sit on a guy for 5 seasons waiting to see if he'll finally figure it out.

I mean after all if this was like 1984, Trent Edwards could still have the starting job!

- - - Updated - - -


Well..this might be his opportunity to sit for a while and learn.

If he gets replaced by Orton, during the season, I still don't consider it a death shot. Much of that depends on how he handles the adversity. Young pitchers get sent down to the minors all the time.

I just know you can't lead one TD drive in 5 games and expect to start. And there were many opportunities to score.

He's done in the NFL once he gets benched.

[Strongman]

Interesting. Come to think about it, historically, the Bills have a very poor history of developing QBs. Ferguson is the only successful QB developed by the Bills that I can think of. The others all learned the ropes someplace else.

[justasportsfan]

Ej was Capt. Checkdown because he had no one breathing down his neck. Both Tuel and Thad weren't afraid to make mistakes because they had nothing to lose last year. EJ was being careful because he knew he was the qb anyways. Now he has to step up or we'll go back to the original plan from last year . Let him learn under a vet qb.

To anyone who says EJ doesn't need the added pressure with Orton waiting in the sidelines, if EJ take can't the heat, he can sit on the sidelines for all I care, just like Aaron Rogers had to for a few years. In the meantime, we have games to win.

[BOBM253]

You said the team recognized and acted on the problem. Is that problem a starting QB or a back-up?
I think it was both

[pmoon6]

Exactly. Why else draft him or trade up to reach for him? He certainly didn't/doesn't have any other tangible skill that was worth picking him where we did.So.....if the nigga can't run, he ain't worth ****?

[pmoon6]

Yeah it's too bad this is the 2014 NFL where other teams can find QBs who can go in and start right away and look competent.

Not the 1984 NFL when you can sit on a guy for 5 seasons waiting to see if he'll finally figure it out.

I mean after all if this was like 1984, Trent Edwards could still have the starting job!And it's Ashhole Fans like you that have made it so.

[Cleve]

As an aside, I keep wanting to refer to Orton as "Cowboy Bob"


Carry on! :)

[EDS]

I don't see any reason, given the teams current personnel, why the organization should not give EJ every possible opportunity to show he can be a long-term solution. If EJ fails they could turn to Orton to steady the ship but where does that leave them for 2015, when Orton is again a free agent and the team has no first round draft pick? Maybe turning to Orton could buy Marrone and Whaley another year in charge, but that does not put the organization into a good position for the following season.

[BillsOverDolphins]

So.....if the nigga can't run, he ain't worth ****?

There is no passing attribute that set him apart from the pack, so you tell me why they drafted him. I'll accept, "because it looked like he may suck the least."