Interesting stat on EJ

[Dr. Lecter]

in 11 career starts, he has 3 game winning drives.

By no means am I am saying he is a star. Nor does that stat define a QB's ability.

I am just throwing it out there.

(Lecter now ducks as he gets attacked for proclaiming that EJ is the greatest QB in history)

[Novacane]

Yeah but all he did was hand off and throw an ugly pass to Williams so you can't really count yesterdays.

[The last buffalo fan]

Sencillo, alguien tiene que ganar, y alguien tiene que perder, o bien, esto es un empate.

[Fletch]

in 11 career starts, he has 3 game winning drives.

By no means am I am saying he is a star. Nor does that stat define a QB's ability.

I am just throwing it out there.

(Lecter now ducks as he gets attacked for proclaiming that EJ is the greatest QB in history)

Which drives were they, the other two that is?

The difference between you and I on yesterday's drive is that I see that the coaches deliberately took the game out of Manuel's hands in OT. 4 rushes by Spiller and Jackson, mostly Jackson's big one for 38, but combined for 57 yards, are the key to that drive to me.

If you want to credit Manuel, feel free. It's an injustice to Jackson who's 10 times the player that Manuel will ever be.

Apparently the other two were against Carolina last year which was all Manuel and against Miami last year which didn't feature a single pass by Manuel on 6 carries by Jackson and Choice for 21 yards on a short field set up by the D at Miami's 34 originally and resulting in a FG. I cannot give Manuel any credit for that Miami one either. Jackson and Carpenter get the credit there.

[Skooby]

Si.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

He got avg pass play yards/per attempt to 7.9 ish, which is elite level. Don't expect that to continue.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Which drives were they, the other two that is?

The difference between you and I on yesterday's drive is that I see that the coaches deliberately took the game out of Manuel's hands in OT. 4 rushes by Spiller and Jackson, mostly Jackson's big one for 38, but combined for 57 yards, are the key to that drive to me.

If you want to credit Manuel, feel free. It's an injustice to Jackson who's 10 times the player that Manuel will ever be.

Apparently the other two were against Carolina last year which was all Manuel and against Miami last year which didn't feature a single pass by Manuel on 6 carries by Jackson and Choice for 21 yards on a short field set up by the D at Miami's 34 originally and resulting in a FG. I cannot give Manuel any credit for that Miami one either. Jackson and Carpenter get the credit there.EJ DNP in either of the Dolphin games last season.

[Dr. Lecter]

Which drives were they, the other two that is?

The difference between you and I on yesterday's drive is that I see that the coaches deliberately took the game out of Manuel's hands in OT. 4 rushes by Spiller and Jackson, mostly Jackson's big one for 38, but combined for 57 yards, are the key to that drive to me.

If you want to credit Manuel, feel free. It's an injustice to Jackson who's 10 times the player that Manuel will ever be.

Apparently the other two were against Carolina last year which was all Manuel and against Miami last year which didn't feature a single pass by Manuel on 6 carries by Jackson and Choice for 21 yards on a short field set up by the D at Miami's 34 originally and resulting in a FG. I cannot give Manuel any credit for that Miami one either. Jackson and Carpenter get the credit there.

I knew somebody was going to come in, intentionally not read what I wrote, and come out with something like this. That is why I almost did not post it.

I did nothing to take credit away from Jackson or anybody else. If you want to pretend I did, feel free.

The fact is he did make one play on the drive in OT (19 yards to Williams).

But I also was clear that this does not mean he is a great QB or even a good one. It was just something I was throwing out there.

It appears that you are so convinced that he is terrible you don't want to give him any credit for anything he does at any point and time.

Feel free to continue your crusade. Hope it makes you feel good

BTW, the other game was Jacksonville last year. Not Miami.

but hey - I am sure I am wrong on that too.

[Yasgur's Farm]

:bullseye:

[Fletch]

EJ DNP in either of the Dolphin games last season.

You're right, I grabbed the first game that we came back in.

Was the Jax game. Tough opponent that they were.

That was another game where we had a good lead at the half against an inferior opponent, had Manuel collapse in the 2nd half, except for that drive, and barely win one against a team that we should have had no difficulty beating.

Props to Manuel for the Carolina comeback, despite the fact that Carolina wasn't itself early in the season. But I give him little for yesterday with the props going to Jackson and Carpenter. Jax, meh.

[Fletch]

I knew somebody was going to come in, intentionally not read what I wrote, and come out with something like this. That is why I almost did not post it.

I did nothing to take credit away from Jackson or anybody else. If you want to pretend I did, feel free.

The fact is he did make one play on the drive in OT (19 yards to Williams).

But I also was clear that this does not mean he is a great QB or even a good one. It was just something I was throwing out there.

It appears that you are so convinced that he is terrible you don't want to give him any credit for anything he does at any point and time.

Feel free to continue your crusade. Hope it makes you feel good

BTW, the other game was Jacksonville last year. Not Miami.

but hey - I am sure I am wrong on that too.

So what was your point, exactly? To simply throw out a stat that you thought was irrelevant?

I don't get it.

Seriously, what was the reason why you posted it except to flush out a comment from me?

[casdhf]

I don't see how the stat is irrelevant. He manages the game and puts it away on the last drive. I think it speaks a great deal to his poise when it matters most and the defenses ability to keep the game close. Game winning drives ... what a terrible stat to compile.

[Dr. Lecter]

So what was your point, exactly? To simply throw out a stat that you thought was irrelevant?

I don't get it.

Seriously, what was the reason why you posted it except to flush out a comment from me?

Flush a comment from you?


Really? Do you really think that, while at work, I am going to start a thread to get a reaction from you? You think way too highly of yourself.

No - I threw it out to discuss what it means. One thing it does show, is that he has shown the ability to do something in the higher pressure situations in his young career. It does not mean that is a finished project.

BTW, his stat line on that last drive agains Jacksonville - 4 of 4 for 50 yards and a TD and one run for 7 yards. (they also had 15 yards in penalties and 8 yards rushing)

But when I say that it has nothing to do with you, you can beleive it.

[BuffaloRedleg]

Stats don't matter unless they tell a negative story. Wins are irrelevant, stats are king.

[gebobs]

One thing it does show, is that he has shown the ability to do something in the higher pressure situations in his young career. It does not mean that is a finished project.
Here's one more takeaway: If and when he ever does start to live up to Whaley's draft day expectations, we can expect a lot more of this.

[Ed]

I think he could have easily had a 4th game winning drive against Atlanta if Stevie doesn't fumble at the end of regulation or Chandler doesn't fumble in OT.

[Fletch]

I don't see how the stat is irrelevant. He manages the game and puts it away on the last drive. I think it speaks a great deal to his poise when it matters most and the defenses ability to keep the game close. Game winning drives ... what a terrible stat to compile.

OK then, we're making some progress here.

So now you're insisting that Manuel is poised when it matters most? That's what you said.

Secondly, that you think that Manuel plays in such a manner that will help the D keep games close? That's what you said.

[Novacane]

Flush a comment from you?


.



Yes. All his comments need a flush

[Fletch]

No - I threw it out to discuss what it means. One thing it does show, is that he has shown the ability to do something in the higher pressure situations in his young career. It does not mean that is a finished project.

OK, so how would you evaluate Manuel then, overall, in pressure situations? Give us an assessment, when you have time of course.

Thanks for clarifying the rest of your post.

How would you rate the competition that he's faced, defensively that is, in his three comeback wins?

My view is that Jax wasn't a good defense or pass defense last season. Chicago wasn't either and doesn't appear to be much better this season. Carolina played poorly to start the season last year. Not just against us.

So I'm not sure what that means. Everyone claimed that Jax and Miami sucked, so why did we need comeback wins against to such teams, and to Carolina playing poorly, to begin with? Seems to me that if we're even average we should be putting those teams away easily.

Everyone says we're a QB away from being a playoff contender, so if that's the case, then the reason why we are below average must have to do with the QB, Manuel.

Just trying to connect the dots here.

[OpIv37]

You know who else had pedestrian stats overall but a lot of game-winning drives early in his career?

Tim Tebow.

[Fletch]

You know who else had pedestrian stats overall but a lot of game-winning drives early in his career?

Tim Tebow.

Come on now, bringing stuff like that into an mind**** orgy. You know better.

[Fletch]

You know who else had pedestrian stats overall but a lot of game-winning drives early in his career?

Tim Tebow.

What I don't get is that two days ago the entire problem with the on-field part of this team was Manuel, and we are a playoff team with a different QB, maybe even Orton.

Now, today, we've learned that Manuel is poised, has comeback wins in 3 of 11 (27%) of his games, which is a very high percentage, and was the reason for the win yesterday despite ranking 26th in passing yards thrown for and despite playing like **** in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quarters.

Seriously, some people need medication here.

[BuffaloRedleg]

You know who else had pedestrian stats overall but a lot of game-winning drives early in his career?

Tim Tebow.

That is a weak point. What are you trying to say? Don't get your hopes up because he might be Tebow? This response actually says nothing, it's just a broad response that doesn't really point to anything.

Yahoo that's brilliant. Take a bow, you just won the internet today.

[Fletch]

Don't get your hopes up because he might be Tebow?

No, he's clearly not. He's obviously much closer to Peyton and Brady than he is to Tebow.

I'll have to start paying more attention to your posts. They're so enlightening.

[BuffaloRedleg]

What I don't get is that two days ago the entire problem with the on-field part of this team was Manuel, and we are a playoff team with a different QB, maybe even Orton.

Now, today, we've learned that Manuel is poised, has comeback wins in 3 of 11 (27%) of his games, which is a very high percentage, and was the reason for the win yesterday despite ranking 26th in passing yards thrown for and despite playing like **** in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quarters.

Seriously, some people need medication here.

You should do another poll and find out if what you are saying is correct. I bet 95% of the people here don't think we are playoff bound now. I sure don't. All most people are saying is that we saw encouraging things yesterday and it is okay to be a little more positive.

But you keep fighting the good fight against those magical unicorns in your head that keep telling you the Bills are a shoe in for the playoffs. It certainly keeps you busy on these forums making up things to fight people on.

[OpIv37]

That is a weak point. What are you trying to say? Don't get your hopes up because he might be Tebow? This response actually says nothing, it's just a broad response that doesn't really point to anything.

Yahoo that's brilliant. Take a bow, you just won the internet today.

What I'm trying to say is that a couple of game winning drives early in his career mean nothing in terms of his viability as an NFL starter. He'll either bust or he won't but this stat proves nothing either way and has no effect on the eventual outcome whatsoever.

[BuffaloRedleg]

No, he's clearly not. He's obviously much closer to Peyton and Brady than he is to Tebow.

I'll have to start paying more attention to your posts. They're so enlightening.

hahahaha what? Who said anything about that? I can't tell if you are unable to read or if your brain just keeps putting words in there so you have manufactured people to argue with.

[BuffaloRedleg]

What I'm trying to say is that a couple of game winning drives early in his career mean nothing in terms of his viability as an NFL starter. He'll either bust or he won't but this stat proves nothing either way and has no effect on the eventual outcome whatsoever.

Well that's fine I don't disagree with that. He has a long way to go before he proves he isn't a bust.

But I think we saw things yesterday that show the jury is still out. Nobody is anointing him the next Peyton Manning like Fletch thinks, but he just likes to howl at the moon.

[Dr. Lecter]

What I'm trying to say is that a couple of game winning drives early in his career mean nothing in terms of his viability as an NFL starter. He'll either bust or he won't but this stat proves nothing either way and has no effect on the eventual outcome whatsoever.


I don't think you can say it has no effect. It sure as hell is not the determining factor, but to say it has no effect is certainly not true either.

[Dr. Lecter]

You know who else had pedestrian stats overall but a lot of game-winning drives early in his career?

Tim Tebow.


Correct. Which is why I said that this stat does not mean he is a star.

[Fletch]

hahahaha what? Who said anything about that? I can't tell if you are unable to read or if your brain just keeps putting words in there so you have manufactured people to argue with.

To the contrary Einstein. You stated that his comment meant nothing. Here's what you said quoted:


This response actually says nothing, it's just a broad response that doesn't really point to anything.

Actually what it says is that stats like that are meaningless this early in a QB's career.

I understand that naturally only the developed stats in contrast to last season's production are meaningless, so this one can't possibly be.

But you imply that the originally posted stat is relevant.

Let's quit with the estrogen based *****ing, so tell us, what do you think it means, considering Manuel's play otherwise, that he's comeback in 3 of 11 starts against Jax and Carolina last year, and Chicago this year?

Tell us.

You already know what I think, I think it's two comebacks in games where Manuel played poorly in order to have even needed to come back, and one good comeback in another against a team struggling at the time.

But when contrasted with the rest of his play, pretty meaningless.

[BuffaloRedleg]

To the contrary Einstein. You stated that his comment meant nothing. Here's what you said quoted:



Actually what it says is that stats like that are meaningless this early in a QB's career.

I understand that naturally only the developed stats in contrast to last season's production are meaningless, so this one can't possibly be.

But you imply that the originally posted stat is relevant.

Let's quit with the estrogen based *****ing, so tell us, what do you think it means, considering Manuel's play otherwise, that he's comeback in 3 of 11 starts against Jax and Carolina last year, and Chicago this year?

Tell us.

Sure thing. It means that he is capable of leading his team to a comeback. It says nothing more and nothing less. It doesn't mean nothing, it certainly means something, but it doesn't mean everything.

Why is everything a zero sum game with you? Why is every argument he's terrible or he's peyton manning? Can't it just be that there were encouraging signs but the jury is certainly still out? Why are you fighting against that? I think it is pretty rational.

[BuffaloRedleg]

OPs post said nothing other than "maybe he'll be like Tim Tebow and bust." Well okay, I guess that mean's something by showing one person who won some games with poor stats and didn't work out. He could also turn out to be a serial killer, because one time there was a football player who played for the bills who turned out that way. It doesn't say anything.

[YardRat]

Manuel plays well (not necessarily great) in 'clutch' situations (end of half, end of game)...that is the one aspect of his game that has been evident since the beginning and nobody can really take that away from him. Maybe he had 'pedestrian' stats yesterday, and obviously didn't close any doors on some of the issues some have with him (accuracy, checking down, not seeing open receivers, etc), but he did lead three important drives yesterday...the TD on the ensuing drive after Chicago scored first, the go-ahead FG late, and the winner in OT. In those three drives, he was 7 for 8, 108 yards, and a rushing TD. There were 10 total rushes on those drives, not including a scramble, a knee-down and the TD run.

He still has a lot to prove to actually earn any kind of positive reputation, but I'll take 'pedestrian' and 'clutch' over a Cutler-like stat line every Sunday.

This team is built to play defense, and run the ball...Duhhhh...why should they start trying to outsmart themselves and go away from what they theoretically do best when the game is on the line?

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

I really dumped on him a lot this preseason, but the kid showed poise in the first touchdown drive. After a quick 3 and out, followed by a humiliating touchdown drive by the opposing team, he calmly marches the team down the field in a very hostile environment with very loud fans and scores. It doesn't mean he's Peyton Manning, but it was very encouraging.

[bf1]

He has poise and leadership skills. He's shown he can get it done. Just needs consistency.

[Fletch]

Sure thing. It means that he is capable of leading his team to a comeback. It says nothing more and nothing less. It doesn't mean nothing, it certainly means something, but it doesn't mean everything.

Why is everything a zero sum game with you? Why is every argument he's terrible or he's peyton manning? Can't it just be that there were encouraging signs but the jury is certainly still out? Why are you fighting against that? I think it is pretty rational.

Yet, when someone else points out that other failed QBs had the same capability and that it was no basis for hope, that's meaningless. Right, got it.

Just so you know, a whole bunch of failed QBs have had comeback wins. Edwards and Holcomb both had a few with the Bills too.

Again, my point is that it's meaningless, you seem to want it to mean something only in the positive sense but nothing in the "same as" sense.

That's called not being honest in my book and wanting things both ways.

Ryan Leaf had 4 career wins, 3 of those 4 games, maybe all 4 depending upon the definition of comeback win, were comeback wins

So to me, that stat is pretty much useless as any kind of an indicator whatsoever in projecting any kind of future success. Again, to me, I realize irrelevant to most other posters here, more important is against what kind of team you had to comeback against. When it's a team that you shouldn't have been behind to in the first place and you barely eke out a win as a favored team, it becomes even less relevant.

All it reveals is that you struggle to do what should be routine.

So let's just agree to disagree. I have higher standards for evaluating players.

[Fletch]

OPs post said nothing other than "maybe he'll be like Tim Tebow and bust." Well okay, I guess that mean's something by showing one person who won some games with poor stats and didn't work out. He could also turn out to be a serial killer, because one time there was a football player who played for the bills who turned out that way. It doesn't say anything.

Why post it if it means nothing?

To me someone that posts something like this is trying to use it to suggest something positive.

It can't possibly be posted to imply that there's something to be concerned about.

Is that some sort of mental stretch here?

[Fletch]

Manuel plays well (not necessarily great) in 'clutch' situations (end of half, end of game)...that is the one aspect of his game that has been evident since the beginning and nobody can really take that away from him. Maybe he had 'pedestrian' stats yesterday, and obviously didn't close any doors on some of the issues some have with him (accuracy, checking down, not seeing open receivers, etc), but he did lead three important drives yesterday...the TD on the ensuing drive after Chicago scored first, the go-ahead FG late, and the winner in OT. In those three drives, he was 7 for 8, 108 yards, and a rushing TD. There were 10 total rushes on those drives, not including a scramble, a knee-down and the TD run.

He still has a lot to prove to actually earn any kind of positive reputation, but I'll take 'pedestrian' and 'clutch' over a Cutler-like stat line every Sunday.

This team is built to play defense, and run the ball...Duhhhh...why should they start trying to outsmart themselves and go away from what they theoretically do best when the game is on the line?

It would be nice if you actually provided some examples of what you insist is the case.

What, we're all supposed to believe you just because you said it? Or because a number of equally ignorant posters will say "yeah, what he said?"

Come on now, are we discussing football or playing political "say it often enough and it eventually becomes the truth" games here?

[Fletch]

I really dumped on him a lot this preseason, but the kid showed poise in the first touchdown drive. After a quick 3 and out, followed by a humiliating touchdown drive by the opposing team, he calmly marches the team down the field in a very hostile environment with very loud fans and scores. It doesn't mean he's Peyton Manning, but it was very encouraging.

So you thought that Manuel's play based on two drives was encouraging?

Shows how low our standards in Buffalo at the QB position have sunk if that's the case. He was terrible on all but one drive in regulation and really did little in OT.

There is absolutely no basis for hope in Manuel based on yesterday's game, none whatsoever.

[Fletch]

He has poise and leadership skills. He's shown he can get it done. Just needs consistency.

If I recall correctly, Edwards had them too.

Too bad that Manuel doesn't have the more important things to play the position effectively at the NFL level, like an accurate arm, the ability to play four complete quarters of football, hell, I'll settle for three, an ability to properly read defenses quickly, and an accurate arm.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Maybe we need another poll

[YardRat]

It would be nice if you actually provided some examples of what you insist is the case.

What, we're all supposed to believe you just because you said it? Or because a number of equally ignorant posters will say "yeah, what he said?"

Come on now, are we discussing football or playing political "say it often enough and it eventually becomes the truth" games here?

Lecter already provided some evidence from previous games, and I provided evidence very specific to the premise from yesterday's game. IIRC, the first time EJ ran the two-minute drill in pre-season last year he led the team to a score. There is also the late score against NE, his play against Atlanta, etc. I believe that is enough 'evidence' to at least create a basis for the argument. I get it...no amount of evidence anybody provides, and no argument or differing opinion anybody puts forth, is going to be enough for you because you've already anchored yourself to a conclusion and it's obvious that even on the wild chance EJ ever QB'd any team to the playoffs or a championship it will never be good enough and you will always be able to rationalize a negative point of view. That's your choice, more power to you.

FWIW, I've followed this team and this league for too long to not understand that there are peaks and valleys for most teams, and what one sees one week may not be the same the next, especially in the first couple of weeks of a season. I made a post to that effect in another thread just last week. Hell, this team isn't good enough to be labeled consistent by any means, and they could very well revert to preseason form and come out flat at home against Miami next week and you and your cronies could once again be in your glory.

[YardRat]

If I recall correctly, Edwards had them too.

Too bad that Manuel doesn't have the more important things to play the position effectively at the NFL level, like an accurate arm, the ability to play four complete quarters of football, hell, I'll settle for three, an ability to properly read defenses quickly, and an accurate arm.

I'd like to see a QB with two accurate arms, now that would be special.

[trapezeus]

i forgot that we all want EJ to be a superstar this year. the general concensus is that he needs to be good enough to not lose games. having a QB rating of 91, a completion % above 70%, and making plays when needed (included scrambling and not getting hit) are part of what we need from him at a bare minimum. He did that vs the bears.

Why would we blame EJ for a game plan that was run heavy and he was 70% accurate on passes and limted injury risk and didn't implode?

and the guy took the bills on their only drive in OT to win the game.

that is literally where i hope he plays consistently this year. does enough to not lose a game and has enough moxy to win it if given a chance.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

You know what? On controlling one's emotion, level headed, not too high, not too low, I think EJ is probably way ahead of everyone here, even though most people on this board probably have experienced in life with a lot more highs and lows than his short 22 years thus far.

[The Jokeman]

What I'm trying to say is that a couple of game winning drives early in his career mean nothing in terms of his viability as an NFL starter. He'll either bust or he won't but this stat proves nothing either way and has no effect on the eventual outcome whatsoever.

Look back in his gamelogs, Tebow had 2 out of 23 games with the Broncos in which he threw more than 10 passes and completed more than 50% of his throws. By comparison Manuel has already surpassed that total as he's done that in 3 times with 11 games played as a Bill. I won't deny that we're playing similar football to what helped the Broncos win with Tebow. Yet I'll be damned to say Manuel is as bad as a QB Tebow was as he light years ahead of Tebow.

[Fletch]

that is literally where i hope he plays consistently this year. does enough to not lose a game and has enough moxy to win it if given a chance.

Did you see anything consistent about his play on Sunday?

Again, it's just a question trapezeus. Let's see if you can answer it honestly. That's all it is, a question.

- - - Updated - - -


You know what? On controlling one's emotion, level headed, not too high, not too low, I think EJ is probably way ahead of everyone here, even though most people on this board probably have experienced in life with a lot more highs and lows than his short 22 years thus far.

Unfortunately that's not all that goes into a successful NFL QB.

This season is more a referendum on Whaley than on Manuel or Watkins.

[Fletch]

Look back in his gamelogs, Tebow had 2 out of 23 games with the Broncos in which he threw more than 10 passes and completed more than 50% of his throws. By comparison Manuel has already surpassed that total as he's done that in 3 times with 11 games played as a Bill. I won't deny that we're playing similar football to what helped the Broncos win with Tebow but I'll be damned to say Manuel is as bad as a QB Tebow was as he light years ahead of Tebow.

Do you think that means anything in projecting how good Manuel will become?

Presumably so since you posted it, but just asking.

As to Tebow, he wasn't good. There's a lot of real estate between Tebow and a successful starting NFL QB.

[The Jokeman]

Do you think that means anything in projecting how good Manuel will become?

Presumably so since you posted it, but just asking.

As to Tebow, he wasn't good. There's a lot of real estate between Tebow and a successful starting NFL QB.

Well we finally agree on something about when discussing Tebow. That said when you dismiss EJ's play yesterday it alienates me and the rest of the Bills fan base. As to me EJ did what we should want or expect this year if want this team and EJ to take a step in the right direction. We don't need him to be Peyton Manning but instead we need him to be Russell Wilson/Colin Kaepernick and you know what? He did a pretty good impression of those two guys yesterdays as he took advantage of what the Bears gave him and did enough to get the Bills the W and ultimately in order for him to develop and become better that's something to give him kudos for instead of ragging on him like you feel you need to do. As all you're doing is alienating the rest of the fanbase by acting like he didn't help guide the Bills to their 5th win in 11 games with him under center which's isn't half bad with a guy 11 games into his career.

[Fletch]

Well we finally agree on something about Tebow. That said when you dismiss EJ's play yesterday is what you should want or expect this year if want this team to take a step in the right direction. We don't need him to be Peyton Manning but instead we need him to be Russell Wilson/Colin Kaepernick and you know what? He did a pretty good impression of those two guys yesterdays as he took advantage of what the Bears gave him and did enough to get the Bills the W and ultimately in order for him to develop and become better that's something to give him kudos for instead of ragging on him like you feel you need to do. As all you're doing is alienating the rest of the fanbase by acting like he didn't help guide the Bills to their 5th win in 11 games with him under center which's isn't half bad with a guy 11 games into his career.

You and I must have seen different games. I saw EJ mount one good drive for a TD in the 1st quarter, get another handed to him by Williams and the D, and then have most of his drives ended with the ball in his hands in quarters 2 through 4.

That's not how any good starting QB plays. It's play that must be overcome in order to win games and we did overcome it yesterday with timely TOs, a big run by Jackson in OT, and poor play by Cutler.


and ultimately in order for him to develop and become better that's something to give him kudos for instead of ragging on him like you feel you need to do.

It's not my job to give him kudos and praise like he's some kind of child learning. That's for the coaches and the extent to which they wish to babysit him. He doesn't even know I'm ragging on him. You can't possibly be that out of touch with things.


As all you're doing is alienating the rest of the fanbase by acting like he didn't help guide the Bills to their 5th win in 11 games with him under center which's isn't half bad with a guy 11 games into his career.

I do my best to discuss the realities of the situation. But you've already determined that he played a good game when the fact of the matter is that his play was substandard for any starting NFL QB much less Kaepernick or Wilson.

We can go through the play by play if you like. I realize that you will probably avoid such facts because it would reveal the lack of substance to your argument, but I'm game if you want to. I have absolutely no idea how anyone can possibly consider Manuel's play in any of the last three quarters to be anything but concerning.

I'll even summarize them for you you.

2nd Q: Except for that one play 7 yard score that the D set up Manuel was 2 of 3 for 6 yards.

3rd Q: 1 for 4 for 16 yards and an INT.

4th Q: 4 of 5 for 40 and a drive that stalled in the red zone.

He hardly did anything. Williams' INT and Jackson's overtime run were the two biggest plays of the game that led to 14 of our 23 points.

Manuel's play was anything but consistent and that was the trouble all last season.

[The Jokeman]

You and I must have seen different games. I saw EJ mount one good drive for a TD in the 1st quarter, get another handed to him by Williams and the D, and then have most of his drives ended with the ball in his hands in quarters 2 through 4.

That's not how any good starting QB plays. It's play that must be overcome in order to win games and we did overcome it yesterday with timely TOs, a big run by Jackson in OT, and poor play by Cutler.



It's not my job to give him kudos and praise like he's some kind of child learning. That's for the coaches and the extent to which they wish to babysit him. He doesn't even know I'm ragging on him. You can't possibly be that out of touch with things.



I do my best to discuss the realities of the situation. But you've already determined that he played a good game when the fact of the matter is that his play was substandard for any starting NFL QB much less Kaepernick or Wilson.

We can go through the play by play if you like. I realize that you will probably avoid such facts because it would reveal the lack of substance to your argument, but I'm game if you want to. I have absolutely no idea how anyone can possibly consider Manuel's play in any of the last three quarters to be anything but concerning.

I'll even summarize them for you you.

2nd Q: Except for that one play 7 yard score that the D set up Manuel was 2 of 3 for 6 yards.

3rd Q: 1 for 4 for 16 yards and an INT.

4th Q: 4 of 5 for 40 and a drive that stalled in the red zone.

He hardly did anything. Williams' INT and Jackson's overtime run were the two biggest plays of the game that led to 14 of our 23 points.

Manuel's play was anything but consistent and that was the trouble all last season.
Stalled drive in the red zone in the 4th quarter? You mean the one we got a FG on that played a part in being tied at the end of the game to win us the game? Try again. In terms of 1st quarter we both agree on that one but you know what scoring the TD in the one he got handed is a sign of improvement. As let's not forget how horrid we were inside the 20 last year so to come away with a TD does mean alot. He was bad in the 3rd quarter but so was the rest of the team with all the penalties we took. Yet again when he had to make a play in the 4th quarter and OT he did. Were the passes he made to Woods and Williams ideal? Nope but they were still plays that moved the chains which sustain drives that lead to points and eventual lead to the Bills winning. But I know those plays were made by Woods and Williams and EJ had no part in those plays because you'll find a way to not give EJ credit. Because again his play to Williams didn't help sustain the drive that later saw Freddie then take the handoff and got us in place to secure the win. Yet let's not rag on Freddie for not out running defenders on two well executed screens by EJ earlier in the game because that wouldn't fit in your anti EJ ways. Yesterday was a team win first and foremost I said so much in the game day thread and it's the type of game I hope we see more of this season as it's our best shot at winning every week. Yet I know if it were up to you, you'd rather have us have EJ do a Flacco impression and throw 62 times and lose so you can rag on how horrible a QB he is or doesn't Flacco count because he "won" a Super Bowl?

You rag on EJ's inconsistencies, show me one QB who was consistent every quarter and every drive this Sunday that you'd prefer EJ play to the level of? Most can't do it.

[Fletch]

Stalled drive in the red zone in the 4th quarter? You mean the one we got a FG on that played a part in being tied at the end of the game to win us the game? Try again. In terms of 1st quarter we both agree on that one but you know what scoring the TD in the one he got handed is a sign of improvement. As let's not forget how horrid we were inside the 20 last year so to come away with a TD does mean alot. He was bad in the 3rd quarter but so was the rest of the team with all the penalties we took. Yet again when he had to make a play in the 4th quarter and OT he did. Were the passes he made to Woods and Williams ideal? Nope but they were still plays that moved the chains which sustain drives that lead to points and eventual lead to the Bills winning. But I know those plays were made by Woods and Williams and EJ had no part in those plays because you'll find a way to not give EJ credit. Because again his play to Williams didn't help sustain the drive that later saw Freddie then take the handoff and got us in place to secure the win. Yet let's not rag on Freddie for not out running defenders on two well executed screens by EJ earlier in the game because that wouldn't fit in your anti EJ ways. Yesterday was a team win first and foremost I said so much in the game day thread and it's the type of game I hope we see more of this season as it's our best shot at winning every week. Yet I know if it were up to you, you'd rather have us have EJ do a Flacco impression and throw 62 times and lose so you can rag on how horrible a QB he is or doesn't Flacco count because he "won" a Super Bowl?

You rag on EJ's inconsistencies, show me one QB who was consistent every quarter and every drive this Sunday that you'd prefer EJ play to the level of? Most can't do it.

Yes, a FG is the end of a drive. We had a Red Zone FG that counts as an 0-fer in Red Zone efficiency. It's the same for every team. Had we been able to score a TD we wouldn't have had to risk going to OT on the road.

I cannot agree that scoring on that play with the turnover at the 7 was a sign of improvement. No single play like that can possibly be a significant sign of improvement. Every QB that ever played the game for any significant number of games can have a few all-pro type of plays and passes. Trying to project improvement on that I cannot see.

Improvement needs to be measured on the whole. EJ's biggest issues have been his inaccuracy, which doesn't seem to have been improved upon on Sunday, and his inconsistency which I've already documented. Just about every drive, maybe every one, in quarters 2 through 4 ended with the ball in his hands, either on an INT, incompletion, or a completion that didn't get the 1st. (OK, that last one was not with the ball in his hands, but you know what I mean)

That's not good by any measure whatsoever.

You say he was bad in the 3rd quarter but then seem to blame it on the rest of the team. I don't get that. Let's just leave it at he was bad in the 3rd quarter. He was bad. That's part of his inconsistency. To date he has yet to put even 3 good quarters of football together and even 2 consecutively. Even in wins last season he hasn't played a complete game. It's like he just can't be "on" for a whole game or something. Similar complaints at FSU.

You say that when he had to make a play in the 4th quarter he did. I see it differently. I see two drives. One ended with him running for not enough for the 1st down after gaining 7 yards on the series. On the second, when we really needed a TD for the win, he throws a 5 yard pass to Jackson to end the drive and force a FG on 10-to-go. Part of the reason why it was 10-to-go was because he threw incomplete on that 1st down.


Nope but they were still plays that moved the chains which sustain drives that lead to points and eventual lead to the Bills winning.


I have no idea what you're talking about re: moving the chains. We had drives of -1, 4, 7, 7, 14, 14, 28, 36, 37, 39, and 71 yards in regulation. That's hardly moving the chains. It's also not going to win many games if we repeat that each week, sorry to be the bearer of bad news. But that's my point.

It yielded 13 points apart from that one TD handed to us by Williams and the D, or maybe Cutler. But no fan of his team would or should be satisfied with such miserable ability to move the ball, or move the chains as you put it. I know I'm not.


But I know those plays were made by Woods and Williams and EJ had no part in those plays because you'll find a way to not give EJ credit.


I'll give EJ credit for a few plays, but he was hardly the reason for the win. You are more correct when you suggest that it was a team win, but even there, it's pretty unusual to have the circumstances fall as they did when your team allows a pathetic 4.8 yards per carry by opposing RBs and 427 net yards, and 29 1st downs. If we do that every week, allow 4.8, 400+, and 30 1st's, how many games do you think we'll win? I'd say not more than 2 or 3 more.

Manuel had fewer yards than all but one QB that won on Sunday. That says something. It says a lot. Cassel was that other QB and he played a much better game. 2 TDs, no INTs, and a much higher rated game.


Yet let's not rag on Freddie for not out running defenders on two well executed screens by EJ earlier in the game because that wouldn't fit in your anti EJ ways.

I can't say enough about Freddie, he's the best all-purpose RB that this franchise has ever seen after Thurman, and I'm not sure that over an extended career he wouldn't have done more if given the chance.


Yet I know if it were up to you, you'd rather have us have EJ do a Flacco impression and throw 62 times and lose so you can rag on how horrible a QB he is or doesn't Flacco count because he "won" a Super Bowl?

It it were up to me I'd have the kind of QB play that isn't acceptable one quarter and then pathetic the next while never quite knowing what's coming next. You seem like an EJ apologist, anyone in that category is going to be sucking it up bigtime very soon. EJ doesn't make it through October before the world comes crashing down on him and on Whaley for drafting him.


You rag on EJ's inconsistencies, show me one QB who was consistent every quarter and every drive this Sunday that you'd prefer EJ play to the level of? Most can't do it.

You don't seem to be reading what I'm saying. I don't expect perfection, just consistency. Apparently you think that I'm the only one in the world that has noticed his inconsistency. Are you reading what others are saying about him? It's very similar. Inconsistency is a hallmark of his to date and one that he'll have to shed lightning quick if he's to make it in the NFL. He doesn't have a full season. Teams no longer wait three years for mediocre play from QBs.

You talk as if I'm the sole gatekeeper for Manuel's woes and issues when that's ridiculous.

Either way, some people can see things that are the writing on the wall, others need to be hit square between the eyes in order to see something that's obvious to others. I guarantee you that Manuel will not improve significantly enough this season. He's incapable of doing so. The coaches at FSU were much better than ours and they couldn't do it. So what makes you think that our mentally challenged in-over-their-heads coaching staff can.

[Historian]

I thought that the win was a team win in the truest sense of the word. A lot of guys made big plays when it mattered.

Manuel was simply a part of that.

[Dr. Lecter]

Did you see anything consistent about his play on Sunday?

Again, it's just a question trapezeus. Let's see if you can answer it honestly. That's all it is, a question.

Look at your response here. Trap is one the more reasonable people here. And not a big EJ fan.

You don't need to be snarky with him.

When it comes to QB consistency I think it is more important to look at game to game than series to series. Most QBs, short of Brady and Manning and Brees don't flucuate from series to series. And nobody is saying EJ is at that level yet.

- - - Updated - - -




Unfortunately that's not all that goes into a successful NFL QB.

This season is more a referendum on Whaley than on Manuel or Watkins.

Of course it is not all that it takes. but he is not without positive traits.